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- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
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B
Welcome to the RKD Group Thinkers Podcast. I'm your host, Justin McCord. With me is double R, not single R, double R, two R. Official. Is that the official R?
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C
I just made it up. So it's official now.
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B
Okay. Roddy.
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A
Richard.
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B
And you know, I gotta say, I didn't know what to expect going into this conversation. I know our guest very well. Katie and I serve on the board of directors for the Direct Marketing association of Washington together. But I didn't know what to expect because I am enamored with Katie's journey and especially kind of the area that she lives, the intersection that she lives now and working with nonprofits. Ronnie, tell us a little bit about Katie.
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C
Yeah, sure. So Katie Jordan, our guest, is the principal and founder of Katie Jordan Consulting. And prior to that, she spent, I think we talked about 15 years or so in the nonprofit space working at agencies helping nonprofits with their fundraising. So now she does coaching and consulting in that. And as you mentioned, yeah, she. We walk through her career, I always love hearing what I call people's origin stories. And there's this. This thread of the music and arts career and then a balance of chemical engineering, and then somehow in the nonprofit space. And we always find that there's always this indirect route into the nonprofit space. But as. As we talked to Katie, the thing that stood out, I guess, to me was she, she mentioned a few times needing to have this openness and this willingness to learn and how that has served her in the digital space. But also now, as she's coaching, balancing this, like this openness with being hands off and not, you know, as a consultant, you're advising, but you can't step in and do it, which is, which is a new path.
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A
Right?
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B
Yeah, there's this, this moniker that comes out of the conversation. Coach Katie. And I might forever from now on refer to her as Coach Katie. It was in part as she referenced the time that she spends out of the office in coaching her kids, sports teams, et cetera. But it's certainly appropriate to think of Katie as Coach Katie, given the way that she is helping steward nonprofit leaders time now as an executive coach, and maybe, maybe the first executive coach that we've had on, I think actual, like licensed certified executive coach. And yeah, Ronnie, I'm with you. I think the hearing that someone that you can live in a space for a certain amount of time and, and then transition into an adjacent space on the basis of a new way to make an impact, I think is inspiring and motivating and refreshing to Hear. And so, so here we go. Here's Katie Jordan on the Arcady Group Thinkers podcast. Katie, I. I have got myself in trouble more than once. Well, like a lot, but more than once. Specifically for using a phrase. Because my wife is a, a professional educator, she's principal, she's been a teacher. I've gotten myself in trouble more than once for saying those who can't do, teach.
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A
Yep. Yeah.
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B
What's the version of that for a coach?
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A
Oh, man, that's a good one. I think with coaching and especially being someone who is like an innate fixer and wanting to help people solve their problems, coaching is very much the opposite of that. It's helping people through that. But anytime you kind of feel that need to jump in and just give advice or saying you should do this, that's like wrist slap, hand slap. So that's definitely one of the things I'm, you know, that self management around that to really make sure I'm not being too directive in those situations.
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B
Yeah. One of the things that I love about your journey that we're going to dig into is the amount of time that you spent in agencies and now to be helping, you know, folks that are in agencies. And then as an agency person, like you said, maybe somewhat the way you're wired, but also like, they're really good agency people that are fixers.
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A
Yeah.
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B
So how do you balance where you came from to what you're, what you're doing now?
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A
Yeah, great question. And yeah, I think that is partly why I liked the agency world. Lots of different types of problems to solve and every day being something different. And yes, helping be a fixer bring new things like digital and technology to help nonprofits solve problems that are still being formed and what the future looks like. But I don't know, someone turned me on a few years ago to this whole idea of a career portfolio. Polio. And I even think back to my college days when I started as a chemical engineer and I did that for two and a half years and was like, no, why? I'm not interested. I don't want to do this with my life. And so then I explored, you know, an economics degree and a different type of industrial engineering degree and ultimately ended up with a music degree. So I had quite a well rounded educational portfolio. And I kind of put that in terms of my career path too. 15 years in agency life was very formative. It was my first opportunity to build and lead a team. And those early opportunities really unlocked my passion for that sort of one on one mentorship. Leadership development. And then as I kind of explored team coaching and organizational coaching, I was finding myself looking back, I was doing change management. I was helping change cultures and process and new ways of doing things in more established businesses. So I think, too, in the agency world, and even sometimes in the nonprofit, when you're working in the marketing team or the fundraising team, you can be so far removed from that impact that we're helping make happen. And even though we're working really hard and we can say at the end of the day, we helped with feed these people, helped research for this disease, that human impact was kind of far removed. So that's another newfound kind of area of fulfillment for me is helping someone to land their dream job or figure out what's next, helping a team get through a big conflict. Maybe that's the tech part of me, that instant gratification, but feeling that impact, that human impact on such close level has been really, really exciting about this work.
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C
Katie, as someone who also started in engineering, civil engineering for me in college, and then I moved into communications and journalism and now marketing and nonprofit space, where I feel like we're kindred spirits somewhat in that regard for you. Was there. Was there a moment, Was there a. A realization in any way you mentioned, like, I don't really want to do this chemical engineering stuff.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Was there something that woke you up to that?
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A
The. I think. Well, yes, in the fact, first of all, how are you supposed to know at 17 years old what you want to do, you know? And, you know, I was a good student. I did well in school, and I liked science and math. And I was like, oh, you know, okay, you can make good money. Being an engineer. Sounds great. But then as I started the very difficult coursework and just picturing what my life would look like, that wasn't really doing it for me. I had always planned to be a music minor. I played piano since I was 6. I played viola through high school and in the college orchestra. And I never really thought what you could do with a music degree besides teach or perform. And that wasn't really the path. Those weren't really the paths I wanted to take. But I did an internship one summer at the Baltimore Symphony and also a local theater. And that kind of opened my eyes. Oh, we need to sell tickets to these things and raise money for these organizations. And so arts administration, arts management sort of came into focus. And then shortly after college, I worked in marketing for the Baltimore Opera. And at that point in the early 2000s, they weren't selling tickets online. We didn't have any social media, so I helped make a lot of that happen. And that was sort of that pivotal moment of the world of nonprofit management, marketing, fundraising, all of that.
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B
I actually had a stint working in a box office as well and spent six months as the box office manager for a minor league baseball team. And I was not good at was. It was painful at the time, but now I look back and like, I learned a whole heck of a lot about tickets and manifests and, and you know, you know, things that you, you know, you take away years later that, that you weren't expecting. And it's funny to hear you talk about, like, how that spun up into a marketing, a marketing career. Marketing chapter of, of your career. So come back to that 15 years in agency land. And, and as you reflect now, what are some of the, the life lessons from that time period that, that have hung with you?
- [11:15]
A
Wow. Yeah, a lot, A lot happened in life over that time. When I started in agency world, I was single. I hadn't even met my eventual husband at that point. And it was exciting being part of like a growing digital division in an established business. The agency I worked for at the time we were in ESOP and then went through an acquisition. And so there was a lot I learned. And I kind of call myself an unintentional agency Hopper never really sought out to hop around, but that's sort of how the cards were laid out. But I think some of the life lessons were always asking why there's so much to learn and there's so much that's changing, but you can't really teach that curiosity. So, so that's something that I learned pretty early on and definitely tried to instill that in the teams that I worked with. And then again, being in sort of like the digital space, in businesses that had been founded decades before doing a lot of print and direct mail, kind of being that change agent and that disruptor. Well, against the, you know, this is how we've always done things. But why, but in doing that, I think some of the lessons, especially building out a team. And with tech and digital expanding so quickly, it was hard to fall in the trap of trying to be all things to everyone. You know, typically fundraising agencies born out of direct mail. Okay, let's do some email. That's probably the closest digital channel to how direct mail behaves. And then, okay, well, sure we can manage your Google Analytics, sure we can manage your social and your paid search and your Google Grant, and, and, and, but then you start chasing so many different things. You don't, you know, really get deep expertise in certain areas. So trying to set those boundaries of who we are, who we aren't, to really make sure you're focusing on what you can be good and best at. And then I think that that word boundaries came in because, you know, see, seven years later, I had my first child and I was doing a lot of traveling. I was participating in a lot of sales and client work. So learning how to kind of set boundaries when a major life change happens, especially when you're at the same organization, can be really difficult. I found so many ways, so many times along the way. I was the biggest perpetrator of not respecting my own boundaries. But if I would set them and adhere to them, my colleagues, my supervisors, my clients would respect those. So learning how to say no and yes and, or this might have to give, I think is something really important. I also learned in that sort of.
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C
Work you mentioned, constantly learning and obviously in the digital space, having that curiosity, that ability to learn with all the new channels and all the new tactics and AI coming in and everything, it just keeps growing and growing.
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And.
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C
Is there something in your consulting and your coaching, do you help people focus? Is it, is it difficult to figure out which channels they should chase or which strategies they, they should do? Is that part of what you're, you're doing?
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A
Yeah, absolutely. So with some of the strategic consulting, it's yeah, what's next? Or how do we scale our program to the next level? Depending where an organization is in their adoption of digital, what does their channel mix look like? What is their investment mix look like? So I, while my background has been more in digital, with the work and the businesses I was working for, I learned a lot about direct mail. And yes, it still plays a very vital role in the fundraising revenue pie and communicating with donors. I don't think there's a cut and dry answer for it. I mean, I feel a lot is changing even in direct mail and the costs and the uncertainties that we had down to a science for decades aren't as predictable anymore. So sometimes, especially if an organization might be starting off, it might be easier to scale going digital first or starting in digital channels, especially if they don't have the infrastructure to invest in a large scale program. So trying to really understand what their goals are, you know, it's always that mix of what are we chasing this year? Is it short term, net or growth for the long term? Those things can't exist equally in every moment in time. I wouldn't Say I'm doing a lot of hands on like media planning, but really kind of trying to map like big picture this year goals, long term goals. Where are those sort of quick win opportunities and where are those areas that, you know, you're maybe spending more in money and resource and time than, than you're getting in return?
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B
Heck of a time to be offering like high level, thoughtful strategy, you know, that at the moment can be like water in the desert for a lot of folks. Right. All right, so I want to get to the people part, but before we do, I. I was struck by something a moment ago, Katie, as you were talking about one of your kind of lessons and takeaways from the agency space around boundaries.
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A
Right.
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B
And, and those pieces, I would maybe characterize that as a lesson or takeaway that you can reflect back to those that are in agencies now. What would be a lesson or takeaway that you would reflect back to either the clients that you worked with or just like the client population in general.
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A
And especially now with the work I'm doing as a coach, I'm working with many living the nonprofit social impact life and boundaries, I would say are important for everyone. I think a lot of people follow the purpose driven work because they're willing to give more of themselves. But that burnout, that compassion fatigue, that giving of yourself almost exacerbates the need for boundaries because you make that sort of mental agreement that you're willing to sacrifice some of your free time or well being to go the extra mile because your work is so important. So trying to just reinforce it's okay to say no and take care of yourself, but you're, you know, your oxygen mask goes on first in order to help help others. And so I think that's definitely universal. I think some of the other things I've learned that would be more applicable to clients is it's your program. I think, you know, I've seen a lot of different business models in ways agencies and vendors partner with nonprofits. And sometimes you make it very sticky and very hard to leave or maybe don't share as much of the information, but which can be overwhelming because there's so much data information. But the client should feel that, that ownership and at least maybe not today. But what is their plan for understanding their data, the full extent of their program and not having to rely on external parties to have some of those key knowledge areas and also just speaking up and saying, driving your program. I think those power dynamics kind of exist sometimes, but it's okay to direct and change and look for something new and push back. I think some healthy competition in the space is always a strength.
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B
I agree that one of our colleagues frequently says friction makes the wheel turn. And I think that in great agency client relationships at the most senior level, there's high trust. And with that high trust also comes like mutual ownership and the ability to have direct conversations and even uncomfortable direct conversations at times. Right. I think about years ago, I think it was for a publication formerly known as Advents, now Direct Impact, which you and I both know very well, that I wrote with a client Q and A on. On agency client relationships and RFPs and like the. Just the tension in. In balancing what makes a good relationship and what makes a. A relationship troubling. And I think to your point, like on both sides, the, the holding back.
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Yeah.
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B
Right. Can get in the way.
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Yeah. Well, I found too there's sometimes can be such a disconnect, you know, whether it's a client with one group of vendors and partners and they move somewhere else, there's not enough time spent it at the outset of forming that relationship. What does trust look like? How do we want to be together? How do we want to be when there's bad news to share? And in coaching that's a lot of work we do up front in a new engagement. We call that designing our alliance. But it's hard to build trust and have success if you. You don't know what that looks like. So almost that, that not even that onboarding process, but how all of the entities are working together, whether that's multiple agencies, vendors and the client, but even within those. Those teams. So I think there's definitely areas for setting up for success better.
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B
I absolutely love that we go. There was a person that we used to work with who she would always ask a client, what's your pet peeve? Like, can you tell me what your pet peeve is? And one time the client said acronyms, which you and I both know, like that shoots agency world. Like that's we speak. Half of our language is acronyms. Right. And so. But knowing that up front allowed us to. To. To work with that and work around that. Okay, so let's talk about some of the people part. You and I were together at an event in December, and from across a crowded room, I saw you get super emotional as one of our longtime colleagues and one of your teammates and mentors was being honored with a significant kind of lifetime achievement award. So you can't talk about John. That's the first rule around this. This answer. You can't talk about John. We love John Thompson. But outside of John, talk to us about, like, some of the people, the individuals that have spoken into your life that have modeled for you how you want to show up and that have made an impact.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes it's helpful too, as you're establishing your personality as a leader is also what weren't. What were some of those not so great moments and what don't you want to emulate? So, unfortunately, I think we've all had some of those stops in our career. But early on, I did have a boss who, when I made the decision to go to business school, she told me that it wouldn't help my career and that if I didn't finish, at least I could say that I started, that I tried. So that was a pretty formative moment in how I didn't want to be. Yeah. And hopefully proved that wrong. But that kind of lit a little bit of a don't tell me what I can't do fire. And anyway, for another time. And then I feel like there's sometimes people that come into your life and maybe you're not quite ready to see them as a mentor in the moment. But I did have a wonderful leader, Angela Strubing. When I was at CDR fundraising group. I had been there for a couple years when she joined the team as our president. And she really came in hyper focused on improving our culture and really seeing everyone and playing to their strengths. We did a lot of work with strategic planning and building out our executive and senior leadership team. Getting to be a part of all of that was awesome. And I learned a lot too from Angela on, you know, how to really balance advocating for your team, but also prioritizing your client. And when there is friction there, how do you navigate some of those situations? She also, sometimes to her own detriment, would. Would go above and beyond to support her team and when she could see someone was burning out or struggling, would intervene. And so some of those elements really helped me figure out some of those important aspects that I wanted to show up as. And I think like at the time she would go to bed every time and at some points witnessing that, I would be like, wow. And looking back, like, I think in the moment I would like question, is this the battle she should be fighting? But then looking back and seeing the progress because of that, but really reinforce that kind of in retrospect. And I'd say another one who the world just lost about a month ago, my grandmother Irene, who lived to be almost 101 years old. She was born in 1924. We celebrated her 100th birthday last February. And she has always just been a shining light and just so positive and really the crystallization of what love is and having been able as her granddaughter to have her for almost half, you know, almost 40 some years of my life was, was amazing. And there's just moments throughout my life that I just try to emulate everything she brought as a family leader and as a person.
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C
So 101 years, that's pretty incredible.
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A
Amazing. Yeah, an amazing.
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C
You've mentioned family a couple of times and work, life balance being important when you're not working, what does that balance look like for you? What are you doing? What hobbies, Spending time with family. What kind of things are you doing?
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A
Sure. So yeah, family is very important. I'm the oldest of four kids. I've got two sisters and a brother. I've got two boys. My kids are six and eight and I've got two nieces and two nephews. So we don't live near each other but we try to get together as frequently as possible. I also live as coach Katie in my free time I'm coaching my son 6 year old baseball team and I've helped with both boys on the soccer and baseball team. I think you know, once we get to the like the seven year mark that's about when I'm past my expertise level. But yeah. So we're gearing up for baseball season this spring which will be a lot of fun. And then both my kids are in piano lessons and my husband's a musician too so we do a lot of family music stuff and get out to concerts and shows when we can. And loving the spring weather, we're here in Maryland. There's a lot of good hiking and places to explore and now that the boys are a little older we've been doing some camping. So kind of getting excited for the, for the nice weather on that front. And live close to Baltimore so we're always going down exploring the zoo, museums and festivals, things like that.
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B
So when you're coaching do you go visor or full hat?
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A
Full hat. Usually like full, you know, the trucker hat or whatever they give you. They give us a jersey and a hat for baseball so gotta represent the team.
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B
So does your, who plays the role of piano teacher? Is it more you or your husband?
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A
More me. I did try to teach them myself and no, that just wasn't going to happen. But my husband plays guitar in ukulele his he's trying to learn piano, too, now that the boys are. But we've got a great teacher. But that all help with the practice. And then also a lot of the beginner pieces have, like, teacher duets, so. Or some of the Christmas songs we were playing. We played some little mom son duets, so they get excited about that as well.
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B
I can't. I, for the life of me can't fathom performing a duet with my, like, Little league baseball coach like that. That's. That's what I was trying to piece together, like.
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A
Oh, yeah, coach.
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B
Coach Jimmy. I can't imagine Coach Jimmy sitting down next to me and, you know. You know, with. Yeah. With the. Yeah. Because he wore trucker hats too. You know, this would have been the, you know, in the mid-80s, but, like, him and I doing, like, some, you know, song swapping of, you know, country music, you know. Yeah. Maybe we did, like, an extreme cover. I don't know. That would be.
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A
Yeah, that's one of my top karaoke songs.
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B
It's a good one.
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A
Oh, yeah.
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B
It's a good one.
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A
Yeah. I don't know. We do it. I don't know. There's some kind of mashup there. Roll over a keyboard out to the. The T ball field, and you can just take me out to the ball game. I don't know.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Play some intro songs for the batteries.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And just the organ. Just the PA Organ in general. Like, if you do that from the dugout at the next game. I need a video that could be your foray into the video that we talked about earlier.
- [31:11]
A
It could be. Oh, yeah. I could see that. Having some interesting reactions.
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B
Katie, as we. As we kind of land the plane on the conversation. You know, you in your work now, you're working hand in hand with people thinking about things differently than. Than. Than what you were able to do when you were, you know, a services provider from the agency side.
- [31:41]
A
Sure.
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B
You're really able to dig into people's. Their individual careers, aspirations, challenges, things that they're trying to work through from all different dimensions of coaching and development. How has this stepping out in this changed the way that you think about your impact in the sector? And especially as we're in this kind of interesting new chapter of uncertainty, because we've been through. Lord knows, we've been through chapter after chapter, you know, for. For some time. But now as we think about where we're at, how has this moment changed how you show up for the. The folks that you're working with?
- [32:29]
A
Yeah, I think the biggest piece is. And I Said it a little bit earlier, which is interesting. It's coming up like just the willingness to admit the way we've done things isn't always the way forward or what got us to here isn't what's going to get us through the future. And even when I think about digital, which I was selling and doing for years, and there's things that I was selling and preaching a year ago that don't make sense anymore and I'm okay with that and I will own that. You know, the path towards success from your marketing and fundraising, it's based on what works. And what works yesterday might not work tomorrow. So I think just constantly centering myself in that and even from my career, that was fulfilling and challenging work for 15 years, a good chunk of my career and I learned a lot and I was ready for something, something new. And so working with people, trying to navigate some of those same questions, what is fulfilling, what is rewarding, what does give me energy, what depletes my energy, Whether that's across your whole team to work better together and feel better about showing up for work every day or feeling motivated in your job search or getting that next step in the organization you are in or realizing it's time to make a lifestyle or career change. So I think just that constant grounding myself and knowing I don't have all the answers either and there's still a lot for me to learn and I don't know, I guess also at this phase just having young kids and seeing them develop and see, see what excites them, it's almost, it's kind of a full circle moment, you know, seeing that through their eyes and helping show up as coach Katie, but mom Katie and help them make their own decisions, steer them the best I can, but also knowing again, like it's not for me to fix or me to direct, it's them to find what's exciting and fulfilling and does it for them. So that's the gift I hope to pass on to everyone.
- [34:56]
C
Yeah, I mean whether it's coaching, parenting, career, I think having that, that openness and that willing to learn, willing to adapt plays well across all of those spaces.
- [35:09]
A
Yeah. And maybe I'm a little tired too because that self paced learning about digital and tech like I'm, you know, that's a lot, it's a lot to keep up with. So it is turning my energy onto some other stuff to learn too for a bit.
- [35:25]
C
There's always more. There's always more. Katie, thanks for joining us. Thanks for spending some time with us.
- [35:32]
A
Yeah. Thanks guys. This has been great and appreciate you having me.
- [35:36]
B
Today, Group Thinkers is a production of RKD Group. For more information, including how you can partner with RKD to accelerate growth for your fundraising and nonprofit marketing needs needs, visit rkdgroup.com.