← RKD Group: Thinkers
RKD Group: Thinkers
How can nonprofits navigate the digital front? A conversation with technology expert Charles Lehosit
00:39:19
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Transcript45 lines
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Foreign.
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Welcome to the Arcade Group Thinkers Podcast. I'm your host, Justin McCord. With me is Ronnie two R's, two Button Richards.
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C
Oh, there's a third one down there.
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B
Dang it.
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C
Yeah.
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Welcome to the Arcadey Group Thinkers Podcast. I'm your host, Justin McCord. With me is two Rs, three buttons, Ronnie Richard. There you go. There's all three buttons. Okay, so second time that this person has appeared on the podcast. The first time he appeared on the podcast, he appeared with someone that he actually talks about on said podcast today. So, Ronnie, tell us about our guest.
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C
So our guest is Charles Lahoset. He's the senior vice president and head of digital here at RKD Group. And he's, you know, we love Charles. We've known him for a long time, and I, I always enjoy talking to him because he has such a unique perspective on technology, and he has more than two decades of experience as a digital transformation leader. And he just recently returned to RKD Group after what he calls a walkabout for a short stint. So exciting to have him back. And in our conversation, I mean, we went, we touched on a lot of different things, but I couldn't help but think about how he talked about the need for a love of learning and how important that is in the digital marketing space. And I also realized as, as he started talking about some things, that he's a lover of learning, but also he's, he's a great teacher in his own sense in the way that he breaks things down. As he's talking about some of these complex and heavy technical topics that if you talk about him a certain way, it's just gonna. People's eyes are gonna glaze right over. But Charles does a great job of, of making it interesting and relatable, and that's a great teacher, knows how to, to make the material relatable to the people they're teaching to.
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B
There's a moment where he's talking about the people that he has been influenced by. And in my mind, I, I, I didn't go there. Maybe we'll have to have him back a. On a third episode to talk about conflict resolution. Because what I wondered is of all the disagreements that Charles and I have had over the years, of which there have been a fair amount of professional conflicts, which one is his favorite? And so missed opportunity, missed opportunity, missed opportunity. I think I know the answer.
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Yeah.
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We couldn't be more excited to have Charles be once again a part of rkd. And honestly, you talk about someone that is frankly a modern leader in digital leading what is a vibrant digital practice. And so, so fun to see what he's doing already and how he's propelling the, the team forward. So here is Charles Lahoset of RKD Group on the RKD Group Thinkers podcast. Charles, when we first started this journey. Why are you smirking already?
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A
Me?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah, I was getting my game for you.
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Yeah, well, you know, speaking of, of game faces and faces in general, when, when you and I started this journey together, you know, there was a, there was a season where you had Emilio Estevez as a doppelganger and I had Owen Wilson. And so we have both, you know, sprouted a bit of facial hair since then, and one of us has removed a bit of hair as well. Like, I don't want to go. We want to go all the way back. But just when you first came to RKD, like 2017, just talk about some of your early memories of, of that time and the digital team at that time, etc.
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A
I love it. That's. You know, digital in the nonprofit industry really felt like the wild West. It felt like we were inventing digital. Like, we were, we were basically inventing the space. And, and in some ways we were, you know, definitely the. What most people think of digital, at least, you know, in 2013 through 2017, was email, right. Some website updates, and then digital media hit. And it's funny because most people think of digital today, it's really digital media. And so, and digital is so complex that the most interesting parts of it get, get kind of ignored or left behind. But it was a lot of fun. We were inventing solutions. We were breaking new ground for so many organizations. You know, we were, you know, developing solutions on top of platforms that, you know, maybe we look back on and say, like, should we have done that? And, and at the time, you know, even who I'm talking about, they needed it. Their business rules didn't, didn't jive with the, the platform requirement, and they needed that layer of logic and solutioning to make sure that they were made whole.
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B
Yeah, that's. It does seem like in one way, a lifetime ago, but it also seems like some of the things that you just shared have continued in terms of. It is still the wild west in a lot of ways. You know, that, that digital has, as a storm, really become the dominant force in fundraising and, you know, and how people relate one on one to, to donors and in an individual giving format.
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A
How.
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Okay, so this is a little bit of just Your, I don't know, maybe your nature. But at the time, you were, you were one of the first folks that I remember that you could anticipate where folks, the difference between where folks were in their programs and then where folks should go, like, where does that come from? Is that something that is. Has always been a part of, Charles, or is that something that you kind of found your way into as you started your own businesses? Like, that's, that's an interesting aspect to you.
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A
So when I joined RKD or what was RKD back in 2013, I was such a newbie and outsider to the nonprofit industry. So I will say, if you are feeling like you have imposter syndrome at any time, right there with you. And there's moments where I'm still, I still learn things, new things about nonprofits. So when I joined what was ARCADY Back in 2013, I came from a digital marketing background. Digital technology, digital marketing background. And what I found was that what was missing from so many nonprofits were just digital best practices. And really digital marketing and digital fundraising almost completely overlap. Do you have an email signup form? Are those emails going anywhere? Just, just the basics there were missing back in 2013, 2014. And let's be real, we humans really go in cycles. Our history goes in cycles. And so we find ourselves going back and checking are these pipes connected? Were they. It's, you know, I don't care if they were ever connected if they're not connected now. Let's, let's get that corrected.
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C
Charles, speaking of that, you feeling a bit like an insider and coming from work in the digital marketing space, was there a certain aspect of that that you feel was maybe beneficial, bringing in this, this fresh voice and perspective to the nonprofit sector? I mean, you worked with some of the, some major brands in your, in your time, Aflac and Coca Cola in General Mills, and obviously these larger organizations are doing very sophisticated digital marketing, at least at the time. And we know that in the nonprofit sector, there can be this gap between the for profit and nonprofit and how advanced they are. So, so was that an advantage you think, coming in?
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A
Yes and no. You know, working for Coca Cola meant that you could do a digital project for a million dollars one year, and then it's discarded the next year. Now you hope it's not, but it could be just part of a campaign. And so the biggest learning curve was outside of learning nonprofits was really making sure that we were scaling solutions to be that would work within nonprofit budgets. Right. Not many nonprofits have Coca Cola budgets, probably none. But I do think working with the Coca Colas of the world, working in that commercial space forced a certain amount of imagination. And you know, if you could dream it then you could materialize it, you could build it. And, and so I do think that's where like the successful people in our space, and I'm looking at you too, Justin, bring a certain amount of imagination and determination. It's, you know, there's, there's, and really our space needs more dreamers, but they need dreamers that are hell bent, that are focused on delivering the dream, delivering the vision. And so that's where I think, you know, early on we had a lot of success with digital and having a vision and making sure that we could deliver on it. Yeah.
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B
As you now reflect on know, geez, 12, 13 years in this space, but prior to that, you know, now you're a couple of decades in, into digital and, and, and such a fast moving space where keeping up is, is so important both for our own good and for the betterment of our clients. Who are the people that one have mentored you, that you have looked to as you've navigated new ground, which you know, you've done a couple of times. Who are those people and then who are also the people that you pay attention to that help inform the way that you think about your role today and about just largely digital in general?
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Love it. I'll focus on the people that influence me. I follow a lot of people on LinkedIn that have nothing to do with the nonprofit industry. I follow a lot of people on LinkedIn that are, they're focused on data privacy, digital analytics, they're focused on CRO, they're focused on marketing mix modeling, they're focused on, you know, ex, you know, on and on and on and, and that gives me that, those nuggets that I get, I guess gives me that dopamine it but also recharges my battery to where I'm learning something. I don't, I don't anticipate that I'm keeping up with everything, but I think there's, there's, there's definitely certain areas that are converging in digital that would be data privacy, digital analytics, measurement. These things are all converging. They're very important to me and I suspect that they will become important to nonprofits. I'm lucky to have now a large team of experts of nerds. I love all my nerds and, and they stay on top of their thing. Right. So if their things search, they're they're bringing me those insights and nuggets, which I appreciate and love, and that's really what I look for in team members, is that hunger. Like that sounds so cliche, but just the, the love of learning, right? The love of learning, because that's you. I feel like to be successful in digital, you have to have some love of learning. It doesn't mean you have to know all of it, know everything. That's really impossible today as digital has become so many different sub channels. But a love of learning, I think, is how you stand out and how you'll continue to stand out, especially with AI probably gunning for all of our jobs when it comes to mentors. Gosh, I, I could let me focus on Amanda Watson and Tim Kirsten for a minute. You know, I, I really, you know, learned how to be a, in the last 10 years, kind of a modern leader under Amanda to help me understand the expectations that on. On a, on a manager and then on, on a leader. So I, I've adopted a lot of her style. Perry Moore has really taught me the importance of gratitude, saying thank you. And it's not that, like, my parents raised me right. I still say please and thank you. I say please and thank you to AI just in case. But, you know, Perry really taught me how to go above, beyond and, and to, to really be grateful and show that gratitude to team members that make us awesome. So I appreciate that. I have learned a lot from team members around me, the leaders around me, Jen Thompson, Jared Trimmer, gentleman named Justin McCord. You all know who you are. We worked very closely for a number of years, and so we really rubbed off on each other. There's, you know, we brought our own things, our own personalities, but we rubbed off on each other in a really good way. I think, at least I feel that way. You can, you can let me know differently. It's a, okay, You'll. It'll. It'll hurt my feelings, but just a little bit. I also will add that some of the people that I've had an opportunity to mentor through my career, I'm extremely grateful for because I think those folks have forced me to focus and grow and learn myself. You know, for someone that was an account manager that came to me and said, I want to be an analyst, I want to work in data, I love that for them. That's, you know, that goes back to my love of learning, which is very important. And so I went and did a lot of research to see, okay, this is, this is what you need to get the job that you want. It really forced me to cast a wider net and really take a wider look at the industry and say, hey, this is what the rest of the industry is doing. You know, looking at job postings and saying, for you to get this job, you have to have this experience. It also left an impression on me as far as, like, oh, hey, this. This thing that they're asking for, gosh, we should be doing that. And so that's part of what I like about digital is the. The constant change, but the also constant exchange of ideas and borrowing. Somebody smart. Look at that. That's cool. How can we do that? It's not necessarily chasing the shiny new object. It's just. It's having respect for, you know, either really smart concept or really smart execution.
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C
I think it's a great point about having a love of learning and a curiosity, because everything changes so fast in the digital space, and it almost seems like it's accelerating the speed at which it's changing. So if you're stagnant and you're not out there trying to learn new things and experiment and reading and just absorbing what's out there, you're going to fall behind pretty quick. So in that spirit of curiosity, Justin sent me a question to ask you. And I have no idea what this means. So in my curiosity, Tell me about socks and cybersecurity.
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Tell you about soc. He said socks and cybersecurity. Socks. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Hey, thanks, Justin. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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C
So.
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I can tell you I've been a part of some of the most boring topics for conferences. And so I really try to make them as now less so than 10, 20 years ago now. I want to make them relatable to the audience, make them fun. Recently, when I was leading a conference session about PCI security, I had to explain how PCI security is now impacted by JavaScript files. The fun part of that was being able to ask the attendees how many socks they have in their sock drawer. Like, did anybody have any idea? And those people are suspect. By the way, if you know the exact number of socks that you have in a sock drawer, that's a different level. So I certainly don't. I can't answer that. And so that relates to most website owners. Most nonprofits don't know how many JavaScript files or JavaScript, you know, tags, media tags are loading on their website at any given moment. And so that really highlights the. The difficulty of, you know, the new PCI compliance requirement. So, yeah, love that. I was like, is this a SoC2 question. No, this is an actual SOC question. Very fun. Appreciate that. So, yeah, I think that's, you know, we often in digital and you know, data have some pretty dry topics, some pretty, you know, this is a technical topic. This is what it is. And especially in compliance. Gotta make it a little fun.
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B
Well, it's making it relatable and to your point, like the love of learning and that comes out in a lot of our conversations. You, so you, you know, you came to RKD and, and then after a little more than a decade or about a decade, you had a, a walkabout as, as you've said, where you went to one of our partners, Fundraise up and, and spent, you know, a year and a half, almost two years and a role that in a growing company that provided a different dimension of service to non profits. And so what in the spirit of a love of learning, what did you learn in that time and then how did that prepare you for your return in an elevated role leading Arcady's digital practice overall?
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A
Yeah, great question. Unrelated but a learning was the number of non profit team members that were looking to make the jump to the commercial side. It was really interesting and I think we experienced different versions of this where we experienced turnover at nonprofits. We experience the burnout from our counterparts, our partners there. And so it was interesting. The amount of nonprofit team members that were applying was surprising to me, including nonprofit leaders. And so I think that also speaks to the success that Fundraise up has. They are very much a rocket ship right now. So I mean I just for the, for the record, I am at rkd, so that I think that should speak to RKD as a rocket ship as well, or at least how I see us as a rocket ship. But at Fundraise Up, I had the pleasure of working closely with Ajay, the chief customer officer, Yuri, the chief operating officer, Peter Burns, the CEO, and their obsession with developing process for scale. And it's not that we didn't have process when I was at arcad, the first, my first tour, or we don't have process today, but it really left a very strong impression on me as far as the, not just the, the process, but the documentation, the training of it, the enablement. And enablement is also another part of a learning as far as I, in my last tour at Arcady was, you know, the head of technology. So I had a small role in sales. And so I was exposed to really a sales organization at Fundraise up. But that was a lot of fun. And showed me the importance of enablement across an organization. And, and so I do see areas where like, oh wow, this could use enablement. That could use enablement. So that's. That's part of my learning. And then, you know, the. I hate to admit it, but I was in my first tour and I still am, you know, drank the arcade Kool Aid, was. Was very much like in BL on like, hey, we are the best and we are the best. But I wasn't exposed to other agencies. I wasn't exposed to other partners in a way where I could really evaluate them properly and understand like their value, what their thing, what they do was really had the pleasure of meeting smaller agencies that focus on digital analytics. I love that, I love that we the end the industry needs more team members like that got to work with, you know, who I thought was our fiercest competitors and so really got got to love to get to know some of them and work with them. So really I think getting the. Having a wider exposure to the industry was. Was one of the biggest benefits to me in seeing that gave me really helped me understand the opportunity for RKD because there's the amount of change that the industry, this industry is going to experience in the next three to five years is going to eclipse what, you know, we've experienced in the 10 years prior. And so that was really compelling for me to come back and be a part of that charge.
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C
You spent so much of your daily efforts, your time in the digital and the technology online space, when you're taking off from work and wanting to just relax or unplug almost literally. Do you. What sort of hobbies do you have? Do you. Do you go analog and balance it out or do you continue focusing on technology and hobbies like that?
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I feel like what you really want to ask me, Ronnie, is do I read privacy policies in my spare time and am I fun at parties? No, for both of those, I'm sure I'm not fun at parties, but I have a small farm in Kansas and so and more importantly, two kids and a wife. And so outside of work, I am obsessed with my and like to spend my time outside. But one of my favorite things is plugging into my podcast and my zero turn mower. So I've got a lot of space to mow. And so listening to, you know, one of my technology or digital analytics podcasts really refills, you know, some of my battery. But, you know, that and just reading, I love to read. And so that is something that I think is Just part of that learning. I can't switch it off. So maybe that means I'm not fun at parties. That's my bad.
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C
You could be the guy at the party sharing the fun facts.
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I think because I mean, with AI now everyone should be able to do those fun facts like. Like that.
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B
Yeah, but between bees and chickens, you've got so many facts.
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Yes. I feel like the. The kid from Jerry Maguire that grew up. Yes, yes. Bees and dogs can smell fear. And chickens, if they were any bigger than they are today, would wipe us out. They would win. So, yes, it's been a very fun journey, Very fulfilling.
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B
There's something almost picturesque about a digital leader living on a farm.
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Hopefully it's not become a cliche, but yeah, it's. We moved after Covid to be closer to my kids, cousins. My wife is one of seven in Kansas. So every weekend is almost like a family reunion, which is a lot of fun. It does make the goodbyes really long. So you get good at like the Irish goodbyes there because you're just going to see them the next weekend. So how many feelings can you hurt there? But yeah, I think it's good to disconnect and be outside in the sun, touch grass, go, you know, just be away from a screen.
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B
How do you anticipate the evolution into agentic AI changing the way that donors relate to causes that they are passionate about?
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A
Oh, I love that question. I do think how we shop in the future is going to be very different. Right. And so that should tell us. That clues us into how we're going to support nonprofits, how we're going to donate to them. So how we're going to shop easily going to be, hey, I'm low on this. Go refill that subscription. Go. You know, make some recommendations on this product. Right. I do that today. I know I'm not the only one. Google is essentially broken from all of the kind of meaningless content marketing that's out there. Not saying that there's not some good content marketing, but there's a lot of fluff. And so if you're researching something that's important to you, how do you get through to the fluff? And right now AI really helps there. And so we think about donors are experiencing that as well. Like how did. How do donors know what breast cancer research nonprofit to support today? Well, AI can help them narrow down their list and depending on their prompt, AI is going to order that list differently. Right. I've found that if you have a reference of female in the prompt, then Susan G. Komen will be listed first in that recommended list. If you don't, then it may be another organization. And so I can see how we will shop differently, how we will research for products that we will eventually buy differently. What's going to be interesting is how nonprofits will maintain that connection, right? Like the, the today, that email that I read that moves me or reminds me, maybe gives me a little guilt, like I go and take action from that, that that email is being diluted over time. Like the amount of emails in all of our inboxes have gone way, way up. And nonprofits aren't, aren't really competitive at all. There's a couple that are emailing every day. Kudos to you for emailing every day. That's what's happening is you're competing for attention for eyeballs. And so that's the most interesting part and dilemma that we need to help solve is how will you reach your future supporter? Because how they'll donate to you, that'll be easy. They'll, they'll just talk to their, their AI enabled bot, right? And could even be, you know, how they interact with Alexa today. But it maybe it's more, much more. Let's imagine it's much more sophisticated than that.
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C
As you think about this and where we're headed over the next three to five years or maybe even sooner because it's happening fast. What sort of advice or counsel do you give to non profits on how to prepare for this?
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A
Love it. Here's how I'm working with my own team because we're all very much moving towards the same future of an AI enabled world that has, you know, more, more resources are powered by AI and less by humans. And so when I see my team members deliver something today and I can tell that it's they didn't use AI, I'll pull them aside and say, hey, I can tell you didn't use AI for this. I want to encourage you to do that. And if you want, let me show you how I use it. Let's, let's use it together real quick. I think when we think about when ChatGPT first came out, a lot of people were like, oh, this is great, this is neat. And then it quickly became discarded. It was like, well, why? Well, many people, I think, struggled to get something good. They were like, oh, you know what, I can get something good. But it took me 20 or 30 prompts. And so what's the point? And so that's where I really think if, if you have team members that have discarded AI because of their experience from 2023 to 2024, then you're really missing out on an opportunity for them to help themselves and more importantly for them to augment and boost their value or the help that they can give to your mission, to their shared mission. Right. And so really what's missing often is that people are not approaching AI, they're approaching AI from a generic. I just go to ChatGPT, I type in a prompt, I get something, I type in another prompt, I get something, I type in another prompt. If you look at examples of complex solutions that have been solved via a one shot prompt. So one shot prompt meanings I put this prompt in and I get a working thing doodad widget, I get something that I asked for. If you look at those one shot prompts, they might be 60 lines of instructions. And so that would be the equivalent of 60 prompts, except so that someone has put a lot of work into thinking about how I approach this ask in, in AI. And because it's, it's not, it's not Google. And we've been, we've been, people have been treating it like Google, like I'm going to ask Google this, I didn't like that. I'm going to ask it another way of asking it. And if we think about it differently, there's context for, in the prompt, there's the instructions on how I want the whatever it is delivered, the formatting, et cetera. And so all of that, if we put the time to bake that into our prompt, and I'm not saying that we have to have one prompt to be successful, but the time and energy that we put into our prompts, into our inputs will improve drastically the output and the quality. This will also really send organizations down the path of creating custom models. Custom is kind of a scary word, so I call them mini models. But this would just be using your training data. So it could be a lot of data, could be a little bit of data and your custom instructions. And it's really your custom instructions that are helping prevent your team members from having to struggle with 20 or 30 prompts. Your data gives the, that custom or mini model focus and it's the custom instructions that help ensure, hey, I'm getting something that I can copy and paste, I can get something that's usable immediately. I would also add that I think, and this is more of a looking around at the space, attending conferences, AI sessions, unless the younger generations just aren't talking about their AI usage. I think it is really older, like leaders that. On teams that are dabbling with AI And I have some. Some suspicions on why, but I think that's why, like, as a leader, we need to. We need to huddle, huddle up with our team members. We need to just not call them out, but just go like, hey, I want to learn more about how you're using AI no wrong answers here. And help them. Help empower them to make sure that the team members that are. That probably need the most resources are taking advantage of them.
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B
It's. Golly, it's not too far removed from when I say to my kids, it's not what you say, it's how you say it, right? And so certainly in the way that we interact with AI and the way that we interact with those around us, it's so often how you say it, right? Or it's the combination of what you say and how you say it that matters, that gives you the best result.
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A
Yeah, I agree, Charles.
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B
Like, man, we. You. You know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway. We are incredibly thankful for your journey and your return and the. The leadership that you're providing into this new era of digital and certainly at rkd. And so thanks for hanging out with us today for a little bit. And galley. Your beard is amazing.
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A
All those compliments, it just lined up and recorded. I'm not ready for all of that. I can say, hey, I'm lucky to be doing what I love, and I'm lucky to be having fun doing it. So that's back at you. Back at you, buddy. Group Thinkers is a production of RKD Group. For more information, including how you can partner with RKD to accelerate growth for your fundraising and nonprofit marketing needs, visit rkdgroup.com.