C (3:31)

Well, it's a big topic that's growing bigger every year, it feels like, and I don't think it's going anywhere. And that's AI and the AI evolution that we find ourselves in right now, whether it's ChatGPT or Apple Intelligence or Gemini or Claude or whatever, it's just AI has permeated our culture and we're seeing it flow into the mission driven space that we work in as well. So that's where we find ourselves.

B (3:59)

Yeah. The last couple years we have been fortunate to have conversations with multiple thought leaders on this topic and folks that I think might set the temperature for AI in the nonprofit sector. People like Nathan Chappelle and Mallory Erickson and our very own Charles Lahos at Kelly Heck. Cheering Koshy So, so while it is this big topic for us in, in 2025, it's something that we have wrestled with, maybe it almost feels a little more common, Ronnie, for you and I, because we have regularly talked about this with guests. And so this year I feel like we've seen a little bit of like the settling of the hype in a way and really more of a, a practical infusion of pragmatism and approaches to AI. But that's my perspective. Help us pull on this thread a little bit more.

C (5:07)

Yeah, I mean, really, I'll leave it to the clips role play here because our guests dive into that topic and they do approach it the way you're talking about, where first it's Mark Cross, who's the head of sales at Hatch. I mean, Hatch is an AI powered prospect research platform. But in his clip he actually talks about how he used AI to answer some questions about starting a business. Asking it like, what do I do? Where do I go from here? What's the next step? And so that's clip one and then second one we have Tim Sarantonio. He's the chair of the Fundraising Effectiveness Project, and he talks about really weighing that practicality versus the importance of leveraging AI, but making sure you don't completely rely on AI for fundraising. You have to keep that human element in there. So here's Mark and Tim on their thoughts on AI.

A (6:04)

AI and ChatGPT was just the easiest copilot of the of like, I want to do this, literally, what's first? And then when it says something like, you need to get a business license and you need to file an ein. You can go one step further and there's no dumb questions about like, literally tell me step one, step two, step three, how do I do this? Where this paperwork, where do I mail it? What do I have to pay? What do I have to do? I started bringing on other people within the industry that I'd gotten to know along the way to help with some projects and some, some great people. But I had a ton of questions around, like, are these employees and how do I pay them? What are the tax consequences? And like, it is, it was invaluable having like the assistant to just like some very out of touch old millennial who's like, I don't know how to do any of this. Hold my hand.

D (7:05)

Can I write a better fundraising letter than me? Probably. Can it be more effective at fundraising over time? Absolutely. Right. You have these robot people that are starting to talk to donors and stuff like that. He says, but is that the world that, you know, we want to live in? Is that the type of fundraising that we want where. Where that happens?

C (7:26)

No.

D (7:27)

90% can probably be done eventually and especially within five years by agentive elements. But that last mile.

B (7:39)

Yeah.

D (7:39)

Of the marathon should be a huge.

E (7:41)

Right.

C (7:43)

So. So I can certainly relate to Mark here. I know I've used chat GPT for so many little things. Like just in everyday life, you know, there's the work functions and then there's like things like recommending some movies to watch with my kids or how long do I cook this beef cut at a certain temperature or hey, I'm looking to some summer vacation ideas. Help me out if I'm looking for xyz, you know, it really, it really has a lot of useful everyday functions.

B (8:14)

Let me tell you my two favorite uses of AI that I had this year. They were both this fall. So one you and I have talked about. We converted our dining room into a library. My wife is a avid book reader and we didn't use our formal dining room a whole lot, so wanted to convert it into a library with built in bookshelves and those sorts of things. And so I used AI to build the entire work plan and construction plan down to the cuts and the order of the cuts that I needed to make. And it was remarkable not only to see the work product, but then also to share it with my dad, who is the handiest person and a craftsman. For him to have that kind of shortcut was also amazing. So that was use case number one and then use case number two was based off of that working out so well for me this year, for the first time, I cooked our Thanksgiving meal for our family and extended family and had the day before Thanksgiving and Thanksgiving morning also had a 5k that I was running on Thanksgiving morning and I needed to figure out like, timing of the dozen different dishes that I was preparing. And so not only did AI help me in helping order things, but it actually built for me a dashboard with every recipe and time blocks on when to do things. And so it, it's, you know, it's kind of like it's beyond the, the ultimate personal assistant for the Marvel Universe fans. Like, this is Jarvis for, for a lot of, a lot of ways. And in the nonprofit sector, it's like it's accelerating our work and it's opening up new doors to the extent that we can open up our minds on how we interact with it. And so I think the key is, you know, not to get lost on dealing with the system that's coded in data. Like, don't let the technology overlord idea hamper you. Instead, stay connected to what makes us human and use it, and use it in ways that benefit you ethically and responsibly. And I think that that's what Tim was referring to in his comments.

C (10:39)

Right, and that's exactly where we're going with our second thread here, which is all about treating donors as humans and not thinking about them as metrics or as bits of data on a spreadsheet.

B (10:52)

If you think about. So if that first thread is, you know, AI to tap into efficiency, then the second thread is how we understand the context and the human side of charitable giving.

C (11:06)

So we'll start. And our first clip is with Lori Collins, executive vice president of our KD Group and head of our marketing science team. In this clip, Lori talks about a bit of an aha moment that she had in her donor research. And I'll just leave it at that for now. But then the second clip, we have Mike Esposito. He's a fundraising consultant and coach in New York and he shares how to him, relationships remain the core of genuine fundraising, even in our time of where automation and scaling and AI and all these things are really starting to gain prominence. So here's Laurie and Mike.

F (11:47)

This is a difference between my research over the last 15 years doing tracking studies of charitable giving. It was kind of interesting. I just recently found out the reason why my research wasn't matching some other very venerable, well sourced research out there, such as the Lilly School of Philanthropy because their research excludes the lower end giving. Right. I've always included that. I don't care if you give a dollar to charity. That to me is a reflection of your heart, not your finances. Right. How generous are you? So for a long time I saw for about the period of 12 years, up until the last three, three years, that the proportion of US adults giving charitably was incredibly consistent. It was 54% plus or minus 2 percentage points over this 12 year period. That's incredible. And meanwhile, we saw the Lilly School of Philanthropy was like, no charitable giving is going down.

G (12:54)

Well.

F (12:54)

The at issue, there were two differences there. They're tracking charitable giving, $25 and up, which is a low but sizable statistic. When you look at the proportion how Americans give and what they give, a good portion of them do give $25 or lower in an average year because that's what they can afford.

H (13:17)

I like to encourage clients to focus on relationships as much as possible. Whether their focus is individual giving, corporations, foundations, really. I feel like a lot of what we're seeing kind of mentioned it earlier, you know, this increased competition amongst institutional dollars. I think that that's true. And there's also this increased use of AI tools to write grant proposals. So there are more grant proposals out there and that leads to foundations spending fewer time meeting with, you know, prospective nonprofits that are looking for funding. So I tried to encourage clients to focus as much as possible on the relationships and, you know, not doing as much, you know, cult proposals.

C (14:14)

So one thing that always stands out to me whenever I talk to Lori is that she's never afraid to try a new idea or a new challenge. She, you'll rarely, rarely hear her say, well, we can't do that because of XYZ or. But wait, that's, that's not something we would. We're. It's always. She's just ready to, to try it.

B (14:34)

I can't tell if she's a master of improv, like if it's something that's been trained or if it's. If it's something that is in her nature. Right. That, that, yes. And that is so important in improv, but it's. It truly, it reveals her curiosity and that helps all of us within RKD and our clients think about fundraising in a different way. And Mike man, he hammered home for me this reminder that philanthropy at its heart is about the human connection and even the origin of the word, you know, from antiquity of the. The love of mankind. So Lori and Mike Kind of like a Cagney and Lacy, since we're all about these clip shows, you know, helping us really think about the humanity in what we do.

C (15:31)

It's a good Cagney and Lacy reference for our younger listeners. They're.

B (15:37)

It's. It is not. It is a special episode. It is a special episode when you get a Cagney, Gagny and Lacy reference.

C (15:47)

But it's an excellent reminder from what Mike was saying, keeping that humanity. All right, so I'm going to attempt a bad segue here. So speaking of human connection, I thought.

B (16:00)

You were going to say speaking of Cagney and Lacey.

C (16:02)

No, I can't make that segue. That's a bridge too far. But speaking of human connection, we each have points in our career path where we take a turn and make a decision or choice, a fork in the road, if you will. And it's usually someone connected to us, that human connection that inspires us or pushes us to make that change. So the third thread here in our special Cagney and Lacy episode is all about purpose driven career change and how our guests got to where they are today. So pretty. Pretty on point. Segue.

B (16:41)

Yeah. I mean, what kind of scale do you want me to like, Is this a 1 to 10? Is this like a. You know, I don't know, like, are we talking, like, do you want to know? Like, from Cagney and Lacey to Law and Order, I don't know, what's the scale that you want me to work with here?

C (16:58)

That's a great. I mean, I would just take somewhere in, like, the good. Meh. Terrible. Just give it a three point scale.

B (17:06)

You know, it was so. So it's not your best.

C (17:10)

I'll take. So. So we can work with that.

B (17:15)

I. You know, Segways aside. Segways aside, one of my favorite parts about the show, beyond our ridiculous banter, is hearing about people's stories. And I think that that's something that is unique about the Thinkers podcast. And the reality is that all of us have a story, and all of our stories are unique. And for most, it's not a direct path. And where you find yourself today may not be what you intended or set out to do. And so we love to ask people about those stories and the moments that influenced them in their careers.

C (18:08)

So in our next two clips, you'll hear from Katie Jordan. She's a consultant, a coach. She has extensive experience, background in the nonprofit sector. So she walks us through. She explores her journey from agency life to moving into her consulting role. That she's in now. And then our, our second clip is Carlos Whitaker. He's a best selling author and speaker host. He hosts a powerful global community that he calls his Insta Familia. And he talks about a moment where he chose to be his authentic self and, and focus on his values of how he walks with people instead of standing on issues. So here's Katie and Carlos.

I (18:54)

I posted a video and the video was like, you know how my white friends can help the black community or their black friends in this moment. Or so I'll never forget. Overnight, I think I lost one third of my entire followers on, on Instagram. And when they left, they let me know it. I mean my DMs, they were, they let me know it. And I just remember waking up the next morning to all these, you know, again, tens of thousands of followers were gone and hitting delete on the video because I was trying to like, holy crap, like I gotta like save face. Like I gotta, I gotta stop the bleeding. So I'm gonna delete it and then apologize. And I don't know if Instagram even does this anymore, but at least in 2020, when I hit delete, another pop up popped up on the screen that said, are you sure? And I just remember that that are you sure? Pop up literally changed my life because I said no and I clicked no and I left it and then began. Because if I would have clicked yes, like I may have gotten a few thousand people back, I would have. But I know that I wouldn't have been leading to the phrase Ronnie that you just talked about. Don't stand on issues, walk with people. Because I suddenly had, I suddenly realized, wait a second, man, like people are really fired up and passionate about this. Like a lot of people that have followed me for a fortune a decade and read my blog, they cussed me out on the way out the door. Like, like they, they really feel passionate. So I started to really speak into this and I, I, I started to speak into the current cultural climate of 2020 things that were happening. But I did it in a great. And what I tried to do as a grace filled way and even from.

E (20:32)

My career, that was fulfilling and challenging work for 15 years, a good chunk of my career, and I learned a lot and I was ready for something, something new. And so working with people, trying to navigate some of those same questions, what is fulfilling? What is rewarding? What does give me energy, what depletes my energy, whether that's across your whole team to work better together and feel better about showing up for work every day or feeling motivated in your job search or getting that next step in the organization you are in, or realizing it's time to make a lifestyle or career change. So I think just that constant grounding myself and knowing I don't have all the answers either, and there's still a lot for me to learn.

B (21:21)

You know, you should have gone with Quantum Leap as your segue.

C (21:28)

That's a good point. We all have our little Quantum Leap computers in our hands now.

B (21:37)

Again, for the they were ahead of their time, right? God gum it, I adore Carlos Whitaker.

A (21:47)

And.

B (21:49)

He is just a force and a powerful speaker and just a great human being with an interesting outlook on life that influences so many. And so I think that we need more of Carlos and we need more Carlos's in general.

C (22:15)

Yeah, we've we've hosted three events so far. We called that we call the Shift, and each one has several speakers and it's kind of like an inspirational event that we have. And we've had some amazing speakers and this is no way disparaging any of them, but Carlos might be my favorite speaker that we've had in the three events. So I was excited we were able to continue that conversation on the podcast. And I also appreciate Katie's perspective on wrestling with some of those deep ideas of what do I want to do and how do I want to spend my energy. Something we should all focus on. And this is the right time of year to be focusing on that reflection, as you said at the start of the show.

B (22:57)

Yeah, reflection is incredibly important on a daily basis and certainly at this time of the year. And you know, when I think back on this year, reflecting for the sector as a whole, I feel like there's this balance of apprehension or maybe ambiguity. So there's like those kind of forces and then there's this counterweight of determination that I find to be beautiful about nonprofit in general. Like just in nonprofit marketing and fundraising, the balancing, you know, ambiguity and apprehension with determination. And you know, we have, as fundraisers and marketers moved from one pressing dilemma to to the next this past year. And you know, the word of the year might as well have been funding in the the non profit sector. Right. And all of the looming concerns from January to now around funding and shutdowns and emergency response and the weight of AI and postal rates and so on and so on. And so, you know, I shared with this group of leaders recently a short story by Tolkien that I, I really have come to love. So the story is about an artist and he is hyper fixated on painting the perfect tree his entire life. His whole purpose is to paint this perfect tree. And he continues to work and rework and neighbors come about and he just gets so frustrated and can't take his eyes off of this tree and the work that he continues to do. And he, he never gets it perfect. And, and he, he, he felt like his value was all about painting this perfect tree. And, and he passes on to the next life having not achieved perfection. And it's only in the next life that he learns the value wasn't about the tree and its perfection. It was about the process to get there and taking a step back. And as Tolkien writes, seeing the beauty that you've created. And so that reflection is incredibly important. And as I think about this related to the path of the modern nonprofit leader, I think it's twofold. One, it's the importance of not being trapped by that ambiguity and urgency that sits on one side, sits on one shoulder. Whether or not that's, you know, the being trapped by the chase of this, the shiny object, or being trapped by the weight of the circumstances beyond your control. And instead, like taking a step back and thinking about the beauty that you've created, it's like taking a step back to reflect and adapt, knowing how important your purpose is.

C (26:00)

And really like what you said about, I've not heard that Tolkien story before and I love that. And it reminds me of, you know, it's just a common quote of don't let perfection get in the way of progress. And, you know, how are we just continuing to make steps forward and adapt? And really, that's our fourth and final threads related to that topic about this resilience and adaptability and weathering change as a sector. So our next two clips we hear from Charles Lahoset, senior vice president and head of Digital at RKD Group. He talks about the importance of having a love of learning, not just in your career, but in applying what you're doing and how that can be a powerful tool for you. And then Jen Neumeyer, who's senior director of digital fundraising strategy at pbs, she talks about how she led a digital transformation in a legacy organization by embracing change rather than resisting it and helping others to embrace that as well. So here's Charles and Jim.

J (27:10)

The love of learning, because that's you. I feel like to be successful in digital, you have to have some love of learning. It doesn't mean you have to know all of it, know everything. That's really impossible today as digital has become so many different sub channels. But a love of learning, I think, is how you stand out and how you'll continue to stand out. Especially with AI probably gunning for all.

G (27:40)

Of our jobs, for the most part, we're pretty far behind in where we need to be from a digital fundraising standpoint, which is why I'm on my soapbox all of the time. Because I think that for a lot of small nonprofits, like, it's a real struggle to, like, if you, if you have the technology to launch things and you have the skill, you know, you have staff who have the skills. And those are two very big elements that a lot of nonprofits don't have. They're either battling with leadership, not understanding the strategies and not allowing them to, you know, really experiment and innovate, or for sort of those nonprofits that are a little bit more on the larger end of the spectrum, they're collaboration issues. So right now I'm with pbs. I work with stations all across the country, and there are. There are a lot of silos. And I think that is probably typical for organizations who. Legacy organizations who've been around for a while. And so I think what I'm seeing right now, besides the tech stack and besides the skills on the ground, there's a real issue with sort of the marcom development, collaboration elements that are so crucial for digital fundraising.

B (29:16)

You know, I don't think it's a coincidence that Charles and Jen are talking about change and that they're both doing outstanding work in our field in our sector. And so, you know, the pace of change, especially as it relates to digital channels, is so rapid and it can be a struggle at times to keep up. More channels, more tactics, more updates. It asks a lot of us.

C (29:46)

And to tie back to the first thread, more AI too, throw that layer in there and how AI is just permeating through every digital channel in so many ways. So if you have these kind of bookend themes of AI and digital first and fourth, and then right in the middle are two threads that tie more to the human context. You've got relationships and being driven by purpose.

B (30:13)

Look at that. We're. We're even keeping humanity at the heart of our special little episode here. Ronnie.

C (30:20)

Look at that.

B (30:21)

It's, It's. It's fantastic. And so now we have a special little treat. So this is kind of like, I don't know, maybe this is kind of like when you get the crossover episode like you referenced. There's the clips, episodes, there's the holidays.

C (30:38)

And so it's like the funny outtakes, right?

B (30:41)

Well, yeah, right. There's. There's those special moments, and so I was not expecting this. And I'm rather impressed that you're able to pull this off, that you actually have the actors that played both Cagney and Lacy joining.

C (30:59)

Come on in. I also have a special bonus. Mr. Belvedere is here as well.

B (31:07)

I've been racking my brain of all of the other random, like, who's the boss, Benson? Like, there's all sorts of great. Yeah. Anyway, listen, we. We promised at this, at the start of the show that we would share our favorite moment of the year. I don't want to spoil it or spill it, as it were, so I'll just say this. I spilled a bottle of Topo Chico while recording an episode of the podcast with Stacy from Six Degrees. And so listen closely to see if you can hear the exact moment.

E (31:48)

I remember when I was really young, going to, like, a Presbyterian church and loving it. Right. It was like Sunday school logos in the summer. Vine. Justin, you ready?

B (32:04)

Don't worry. Just. Just knocked over a Topo. Don't worry. Let's reach it for a pin. This is a Topo Chico. What's it, guys? I met your church.

E (32:15)

You got nervous.

F (32:17)

Where is she gonna go?

B (32:18)

Here, listen, the spirit works. Spirit moves.

E (32:21)

Right?

B (32:22)

Go ahead.

E (32:23)

Anyways, I liked it until I wanted to get baptized. I think it was like eight.

C (32:29)

Okay.

B (32:30)

Yeah.

C (32:31)

I'm just glad the bottle was empty there and that you didn't spill it all over your computer. Just a good reminder. You never know what's going to happen when you hit record. We've seen quite a bit in, I don't know, 120 plus episodes we've had now. We've had the spilled bottles, lawnmowers coming by. We had a guest whose kids started playing drums in the middle of an episode. True. We did dogs barking. Of course. We've had.

B (33:00)

Yeah, yeah, we've. We've really. We've really seen quite a bit. It is kind of like Quantum Leap. Like, we've lived in these different. These different character stories and timelines. Right. But that said, it's been an amazing year on the Thinkers podcast, and. And it's a. A chance for us today to. To celebrate that year with each other and alongside our listeners. And so we're ever thankful for those that tune in and continue to come back and try their best to keep up with the oddball references that sometimes enter the discourse. So thank you for being a part of it, Ronnie. Thank you for being a part of it. Not that you have a choice.

C (33:51)

It's true. Thank you for being a friend. There's a reference.

B (33:58)

And, and look, here's Golly, there may be, there may be just as much ambiguity in where we're going as we enter 2026. And so I am optimistic that both for the Thinkers podcast, but that more so in the work that we do every day that we meet that ambiguity head on with determination and that carries us into and to even more stories in the year ahead. Thanks, everybody.

F (34:33)

Group Thinkers is a production of RKD Group. For more information, including how you can partner with RKD to accelerate growth for your fundraising and nonprofit marketing needs, visit rkdgroup.com.