Episode Summary: Why the Nonprofit Sector’s Future Depends on Leaders Learning Together

Podcast: RKD Group: Thinkers
Host(s): Justin McCord, Ronnie Richard
Guest: Abby Graf, Vice President of Programs, The NonProfit Alliance (TNPA)
Date: December 18, 2025

Overview

This podcast episode features a deep and candid conversation with Abby Graf, a pivotal leader at The NonProfit Alliance. Together with hosts Justin McCord and Ronnie Richard, Abby explores the evolving role of nonprofit leaders, the necessity of collaborative learning, the intersection of art and leadership, and the structural and philosophical challenges facing the nonprofit sector today. The discussion is rich with personal anecdotes, leadership wisdom, and insights on managing risk, creativity, and sector-wide transformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Abby Graf’s Role and Approach to Leadership

• Abby’s Dream Job: Abby describes her work as “shepherding” nonprofit leaders and facilitating their growth, both individually and collectively (04:40).
  • Quote: “For me, I don’t feel stressed about it. I feel like it is an absolute honor...I just love being in that room with such smart people wrestling with what we’re talking about, thinking about how they’re applying it or not applying it, and learning from each other.” – Abby (04:40)
• Levels of Leadership: Abby organizes leadership development on three levels – personal (me), organizational/team (we), and sector-wide/community (community) (24:19).
  • Quote: “We talk about it. Our shorthand is me, we, community...Individual, the we people you actually meet, and the community, the really broader sector.” – Abby (24:19)

2. Early Influences and Lifelong Leadership

• Leadership Origins: Abby shares stories from her high school years—leading student council and pioneering Earth Day activities as a teen—that foreshadowed her path (07:24).
  • Quote: “Somehow I have turned [leadership] into a career. So I think that’s it. Like, I think it goes back to high school.” – Abby (07:34)
• Connecting Career Threads: Abby reflects on merging her interests in art and nonprofit work, emphasizing that bringing people together and amplifying voices has always motivated her (10:14).

3. The Role of Art and Creativity in Leadership

• Art as a Civic Tool: Abby explains how art, for her, is both a personal outlet and a community-building tool, enabling self-expression and greater civic engagement (10:14, 14:54).
  • Quote: “Art is a really important and different way of not just making people’s voices heard, but also helping the non-artists get in touch with what they’re thinking.” – Abby (10:14)
• Creativity & Comfort Zones: The group discusses the importance for leaders to embrace creativity, step outside comfort zones, and be willing to fail—themes Abby suggests are necessary for growth and innovation (16:17).
  • Quote: “Being willing to try new things and being willing to fail, being willing to be wrong, which I think we do talk about in leadership. But how do you really bring that into your heart?” – Abby (16:17)

4. Nonprofit Sector’s Structural Risk Aversion & the Challenge of Failure

• Budget Constraints and Donor Responsibility: Abby acknowledges that nonprofits face a structural hesitation to risk and experimentation due to budget constraints and accountability to donors (18:45).
  • Quote: “We just have this structural aversion to risk and a structural aversion to failure...So it is an experimentation that fits in that, right? If we’re going to experiment, we’re taking a risk. And I do think that’s a dilemma.” – Abby (18:45)
• Learning to Improve through Discomfort: Abby uses a volleyball analogy from her high school coach, illustrating the growth possible when organizations and individuals push through a phase of lower performance to achieve higher outcomes (20:29).
  • Quote: “He said, you’re playing at this level...and what I’m trying to give you is a different way of doing it, and I know you’re going to get worse before you get better...If you do, you’ll come out on the other side at a more elevated playing level. And that has stuck with me.” – Abby (20:29)

5. Sources of Support and Inspiration

• Learning from Others: Abby credits her growth to her colleagues, specifically mentioning Shannon McCracken and her leadership committee, as persistent sources of feedback, mentorship, and inspiration (22:24).
• Staying Grounded: She humorously notes that her children keep her honest about her work and life (23:48).

6. The Sector’s Current Challenges and the Need for Collective Action

• Sector Under Threat: Abby and the hosts discuss the existential challenges facing nonprofits—political pressure, funding constraints, necessary adaptation, and the need for innovation (24:19).
  • Quote: “Nonprofits are under threat right now...we need to be in conversation with each other about what are we doing, what are you doing, what am I doing, how am I responding, how are our budgets being impacted...” – Abby (24:19)
• Leadership Dilemmas: They discuss how organizational-level risk aversion often stifles individual leaders’ willingness to innovate, and the desire to observe others before taking leaps themselves (27:53, 29:22).
• The 501(c)(3) Debate: Abby highlights passionate sector discussions about the meaning of nonprofit status and the possibility of reimagining the sector’s identity beyond tax status (29:41).
  • Quote: “Our missions don’t disappear...the fact that people are kind of thinking beyond that and thinking like what’s either the big picture or the underlying foundation of what we’re trying to do as a sector...could bring us out in a really positive space on the other side.” – Abby (31:50)

7. Moving Forward: Change and Resilience

• Metaphors for Change: The hosts and Abby use metaphors—moving water, downhill skiing—as analogies for embracing change, managing control, and finding opportunity in disruption (33:17).
  • Quote: “Stagnant water breeds disease. Moving water is where it’s at. Moving water brings vitality, brings life. And so we want to lean into being moving water.” – Justin (32:13)
• Community and Learning: The sector’s uniqueness lies in its commitment to shared learning, compassion, and leadership development, which Abby is credited for fostering through her work (33:53).

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “I don’t have to always have the answers myself. So I think that helps relieve a lot of the pressure.” – Abby (06:04)
• “For me, it doesn’t feel so different. The thread for me, it is bringing people together, but it’s making people’s voices heard.” – Abby (12:03)
• “I think there is something in that creativity lens of being willing to try new things and being willing to be fail, being willing to be wrong, which I think we do talk about in leadership.” – Abby (16:17)
• “As organizations, we’re just seeing that real risk aversion—kind of stay below the radar screen. How do we keep having the impact we need? Because as we know right now, a lot of the work of nonprofits is needed more than ever.” – Abby (28:24)
• “Are we defending our right to have an impact on civic society?...that’s actually a pretty exciting thing that comes out of all this.” – Abby (31:00)

Important Segment Timestamps

• Introduction & Guest Background: 00:04 – 03:40
• Abby on Her Role & Leadership Philosophy: 03:42 – 06:35
• Abby’s Childhood & Early Leadership: 07:19 – 09:45
• Art & Leadership Intersection: 09:45 – 15:33
• Creativity in Leadership/Comfort Zones: 15:33 – 17:38
• Risk Aversion, Budgets, and Failure: 18:07 – 21:32
• Who Inspires Abby: 21:41 – 23:51
• The Sector’s Challenges & Adaptation: 23:51 – 29:41
• Redefining ‘Nonprofit’: 29:41 – 32:13
• Metaphors for Change & Closing Appreciation: 32:13 – 34:45

Memorable Moments

• Abby’s retelling of her high school experiences exemplifying proto-leadership qualities (07:34).
• The emphasis on art as a civic conversation, not just self-expression (14:54).
• The volleyball coaching analogy on improvement requiring a dip in performance before growth (20:29).
• The discussion on redefining what “nonprofit sector” means, moving beyond tax status to mission-driven social impact (29:41).

Tone & Language

The discussion is warm, candid, and frequently reflective, punctuated by a direct, practical tone on leadership. Abby’s introspective style encourages vulnerability, risk-taking, and curiosity. The conversation is filled with humor, personal anecdotes, and mutual respect among participants.

For anyone looking to understand how nonprofit leaders can and must grow together in these changing times, Abby Graf offers both practical wisdom and big-picture inspiration in this insightful episode.