Ep #368: Six Layers of a Referral Strategy for an Interior Design Business

Summary

Podcast Summary: Roadmap to Referrals Episode #: 368
Title: Six Layers of a Referral Strategy for an Interior Design Business
Release Date: July 1, 2025
Host/Author: Stacey Brown Randall
Guest Host: Michelle Williams

---

Introduction

In Episode #368 of the Roadmap to Referrals podcast, host Stacey Brown Randall welcomes Michelle Williams, the host of the Profit Is a Choice podcast, for a special podcast takeover. The episode delves deep into developing a comprehensive referral strategy tailored for interior design businesses, leveraging a six-layered approach to naturally generate and nurture referrals without resorting to manipulation or direct asking.

---

Defining Referrals vs. Word of Mouth

Timestamp: [11:38]

Stacey begins by clarifying crucial terms to ensure a common understanding:

• Referral: A direct connection where the referral source introduces a potential client who has a clear need and is in a buyer mentality. This introduces a higher likelihood of conversion due to the transferred trust.

  Stacey Brown Randall: “A referral comes in when somebody refers you a new client, typically they already know what you do because they've been referred by someone they trust.”

• Word of Mouth Buzz: Indirect mentions where someone talks about your services, but without a direct introduction or connection to a potential client. This often lacks the personal touch and trust inherent in referrals.

  Stacey Brown Randall: “Word of mouth buzz means someone was talking about you, there was a need, but you don't know who that person is because you were never connected by the referral source.”

Michelle emphasizes the importance of distinguishing between the two to effectively nurture and capitalize on genuine referrals.

---

The Six Layers of a Referral Strategy

Timestamp: [19:24]

Stacey introduces her proprietary six-layered referral strategy, designed to build a robust referral ecosystem for interior design businesses.

Layers 1 & 2: Strategic Foundations

1. Existing Referral Source Layer

   • Focuses on nurturing and strengthening relationships with current referral sources.
   • Aim: To receive more referrals from those who already refer clients.
   • Stacey: “Layer number one is about how we create a plan with the right language and consistency to take care of people who've referred us in the past.”

2. Potential Referral Source Layer

   • Identifies and cultivates relationships with clients and contacts who have the potential to become referral sources.
   • Stacey: “Layer number two involves identifying contacts you wish were referring you and implementing a step-by-step process to turn them into referral sources.”

Michelle shares her experience with tracking referrals, underscoring the necessity of empirical data over gut feelings:

Michelle Williams: “I couldn’t quantify my referrals until I started tracking them systematically.”

Layers 3 to 6: Tactical Engagements

These layers focus on specific scenarios where referral seeds can be planted through strategic language and actions.

3. Networking Situations

   • Utilize conversations at networking events to subtly introduce the success and reliance on referrals.
   • Stacey: “Instead of generic responses like 'business is good,' highlight the impact of referrals, e.g., '70% of my new clients come through referrals.'”

4. New Client Situations

   • During onboarding and client interactions, encourage satisfied clients to consider referring others by planting the right messages.
   • Emphasize the importance of expressing gratitude and openness to referrals without direct asking.

5. Referred Prospects

   • Tailor conversations with referred prospects to reinforce the trust transferred through the referrer.
   • Use specific language that acknowledges the referral and builds on the established trust.

6. Non-Referred Prospects

   • Engage non-referred prospects with strategies that plant the idea of referrals early in the relationship.
   • Stacey: “Plant referral seeds even if they choose not to become clients; they might refer someone else who fits your ideal client profile.”

---

Key Insights and Strategies

Tracking and Data-Driven Referrals

Timestamp: [24:10]

• Michelle highlights the importance of using CRM systems or spreadsheets to track where referrals come from.

  Michelle Williams: “Don't let your referrals be a gut feeling. Use data to identify your top referral sources.”

• Stacey echoes this sentiment, advocating for a systematic approach to capture and analyze referral data to make informed business decisions.

Planting Referral Seeds with Language Tactics

Timestamp: [42:22]

• Stacey and Michelle discuss the significance of strategic language in various business interactions to naturally encourage referrals.

• Example for networking:

  Stacey Brown Randall: “Instead of saying 'business is good,' say 'We brought in over 20 new students last month, 70% through referrals.'”

• This approach subtly emphasizes the power of referrals and invites conversations around generating more.

Articulating Your Ideal Client

Timestamp: [56:48]

• Michelle stresses the necessity of clearly defining who your ideal client is to enable others to make precise referrals.

  Michelle Williams: “Tell me your ideal client so I can refer the right people your way.”

• Stacey adds that providing a clear picture of your ideal client helps others refer more effectively, enhancing the quality and relevance of incoming referrals.

Growth by Referrals Program

Timestamp: [63:06]

• Stacey outlines her Growth by Referrals program, which empowers businesses to:
  • Identify and nurture existing and potential referral sources.
  • Implement language tactics tailored to different interaction scenarios.
  • Track and analyze referral data for continuous improvement.

Stacey Brown Randall: “Inside the Growth by Referrals program, we teach you how to identify your referral sources, take care of them, and implement operational strategies to consistently generate quality referrals.”

---

Concluding Insights

The episode underscores that building a successful referral strategy is both an art and a science. By establishing strategic layers and employing tactical language in specific scenarios, interior design businesses can cultivate a sustainable and robust referral ecosystem. The emphasis on data-driven tracking and clearly defined ideal clients further enhances the effectiveness of referral strategies, ensuring that referrals are not only plentiful but also of high quality.

Stacey Brown Randall: “Build a referable business by nurturing relationships, leveraging the right language, and tracking your referrals diligently.”

Michelle Williams: “When you make it easy for others to refer you by clearly defining your needs and ideal clients, the quality and quantity of referrals improve significantly.”

---

Additional Resources

• Podcast Hosts:

  • Roadmap to Referrals by Stacey Brown Randall
  • Profit Is a Choice by Michelle Williams

• Programs and Tools:

  • Growth by Referrals Program: A comprehensive training to develop and implement a multi-layered referral strategy.

• Downloadable Content:

  • Six Layers Referral Strategy PDF: Visual guide available at staceybrownrandall.com/layering

---

For more insights on building a referable business and generating natural referrals, tune into future episodes of Roadmap to Referrals and explore Stacey Brown Randall’s Growth by Referrals program.

Transcript

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Foreign. Hey there and welcome to the Roadmap to Referrals podcast. A show that proves you can generate referrals without asking or manipulation. I'm your host, Stacy Brown Randall. I'm a card carrying member of the Business Failure Club. I have taught my Referrals Without Asking methodology and strategies to clients in more than 14 countries around the world. And my mission is to help you unleash a referral explosion by leveraging the science of referrals and respecting your relationships.

[Michelle Williams]

I am an introvert.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

The idea of cold calling leaves me panicked, absolutely panicked. I didn't realize how much information we didn't captivate about referrals. It's frankly the best type of business where there's right ways of doing it and not so right ways of doing it. And Stacy teaches the right ways of doing it. So we've all been told that there's these ways to generate referrals and none of them feel right. They all have the ick desperation factor or feeling to them. What if I told you there was a different way to generate referrals for your business? A way that actually felt good, where you felt like you were honoring not only who you are, but but your relationships. And that's what I teach. I teach people how to generate referrals naturally, but we have strategies and tactics and language and science behind ultimately what it looks like to generate referrals in someone's business.

[Michelle Williams]

Coming to this accelerator is the information we learn, the process.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

We have access to Stacy during the course as well as afterwards. So for me, it has all of the elements that sets me up for success. If you're a person that really wants to build their business on relationships with their clients, if that's key to you and that's your, in your DNA and your personality, this is hands down the most hands on, meaningful experience I've had with any kind of coach in this space. She's going to teach me a structure that I can follow, structure that makes sense, helps me cultivate the referral sources that I want. And really what Stacy offers is easy to implement. I think for some people you just have to go and put yourself in the environment, force yourself to be like, this is what we're doing for two days and I've got someone leading that session and teaching me what I need to know. If you're a person like me that needs immediate answers and needs that feedback, like I'm doing this right, you walk away with your whole plan for the year and then you still have access to her for 60 days after that, I have a structure now. And so instead of accidentally coming across referrals, I can intentionally come across referrals. It's been so eye opening. The book just kind of, you know, scratches the surface of the knowledge that she has and the stuff that she shares with us. The competitive advantage that small business owners have is the ability to be humans with other people that they're doing business with and their clients. And we have that competitive advantage that large corporations will never have. And referrals is the best way to leverage that and to really be able to be able to grow our business from that human element is by generating referrals for our business because they come from people and they come from relationships. Join us for the September 2025 referral accelerator. You can join the wait list now. To be the first to learn about the dates, all the details, and secure the lowest pricing, go to staceybrownrandall.com accelerator okay, so today on our podcast, as part of our podcast Takeover, we are welcoming Michelle Williams. Michelle Williams is the host of the Prophet is a Choice podcast and she is going to be taking over today's episode. So here's one thing I just want to make a quick note about before I tell you a little bit about Michelle and why you should be so excited for this episode. So if you typically watch our episodes now as videos on our YouTube channel, right. Which can be found at Referrals without asking, just a note that there isn't a video of our interview as Michelle's podcast, Profit Is a Choice is actually audio only. So. So if you hop over to YouTube like normal, you're like, yeah, I'm watching YouTube. And you're like, I see Stacy right now. And then there's not a video as you're listening to the interview between Michelle and I. Well, that's why just want to give you a heads up. Michelle is a dear friend of mine and I recognize that as I introduce each of the hosts that are taking over the podcast during this podcast Takeover as our summer series. I'm probably going to sound like a broken record. I am probably going to be like, gosh, she did. She says everything's, you know, she says everyone. She's so excited to connect to introduce them to us. She says that everyone is a dear friend. She's like, and it's true. Each of these people that you are going to hear from as they share the interview that they did with me on their podcast, each one of these folks mean the world to me. Some of them I have known for a really long time like Michelle. Right. Michelle has actually been in my world since I could think 2018, 2019, and others like Jay Berkowitz that you had heard on the very first podcast of this Takeover series. We met just a few months ago. But of course, when you find a good person to become friends with and be connected with and have as a part of your network and your community, well, then you should take advantage of making sure that you make that connection and you keep nurturing that connection as well. So a little bit about Michelle before we get to the interview. Michelle is the CEO of Scarlet Thread Consulting and Matric Solutions. Her two companies focus on empowering creative professionals to own the financials of their business. But more importantly, like I said, she really is a great friend and for me, a mentor. So if you listen to episode this is like way back in the day, right? But if you listen to episode 201 and 294, I mentioned that there is someone that is a friend of mine and mentor that helped me do some things in my business. It's Michelle. She is the one who helped me determine my sweet spot of how I wanted to help and work with my clients and which was the catalyst for the shift in my business and the change in the model of how I work with clients almost five years ago. It's crazy to think that it was almost full five years ago. So Michelle and I met back in 2019 when we were both co authors of the book A well Designed Business, the Power Talk Friday Tours with Luanne Nogara. Now that was the start for us of a beautiful friendship. We have shared the stage through Luann's platform as well multiple times being Luann Live and some other events that we have done. And I am just so pleased to be able for you guys to get to know Michelle. If there was one word that I would use to describe Michelle, it is wise. My gosh, this lady is so, so wise. So I hope you enjoy her hosting this episode. Let's get to it.

[Michelle Williams]

Hey, this is Michelle Williams from Profit Is a Choice podcast. I'm doing a podcast Takeover of the Roadmap Referrals podcast this week and this is the episode where I interviewed Stacy over on my podcast. Stacy and I met in 2019. We were co authors in a book with Luann Nygara and we have been able to do multiple speaking engagements and teaching opportunities together and I am excited to have an opportunity to take over her podcast and I hope you enjoy our conversation. Every day, empowered entrepreneurs are taking ownership of their company, Financial Health and enjoying the rewards of reduced stress and more creativity. With my background as a financial software developer, owner of multiple businesses in the interior design industry, educator and speaker, I coach women in the interior design industry to increase their profits, regain ownership of their bottom line, and to have fun again in their business. Welcome to Profit is a Choice. Hey, Stacy, welcome back to the podcast.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Thank you so much for having me. It's so fun to hang out with you today.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, I'm excited. I know you and I, we talk on a regular basis, and I. I think we were both shocked when we did the calculation to see how long it had been since you were on the podcast. But you were here back two years ago. We looked at almost two and a half by the time this airs, and that is episode 27, referrals. Without asking for a full pipeline. Can you believe it's been two and a half years?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

I can't. I mean, when you said that, I was like, no, it hasn't been that long. I mean, like, Michelle, why are you holding out on me?

[Michelle Williams]

I know, right? I think because I thought we had just talked, and then I was like, wait a minute, we haven't talked since then. You and I both were co authors in Luann's second book, but the first one from the Friday Talk Expert series, and we met through that experience back at the beginning of 19. And I think for some reason, Stacy, it's almost like 2020 didn't happen. So I still sometimes in my brain think of 2019 as last year. I don't think I'm alone in that. I think I've heard other people make that comment as well. So I think that's kind of where it came from. Oh, yeah, that was last year. No, that was two years ago.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

I also think as we get older, we just don't remember as well.

[Michelle Williams]

Let's don't talk about older. I probably like to talk about it under a different way.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

I'm totally kidding. I know. It's been. It's been crazy that it's been that. I mean, I think about the very first time I met you was at High Point at the market, when we were there speaking as part of Luann's panel of experts. And I think that was actually the fall of 18. What is fall market at high point? Like November, October or something?

[Michelle Williams]

Yep.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

And it was like that's the first time we met. And then we've just done so much together and so many things that happen since then. It just feels like maybe it's been longer or shorter just because of that part of our life. So.

[Michelle Williams]

But yeah, okay, we'll go with that explanation. I like that.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Make you feel better.

[Michelle Williams]

So much better than older.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Good.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay. So today we're going to build on the referral strategy as a conversation point. And we were talking about, I remember a conversation you and I had probably about almost a month ago now. We were talking about looking at things through different lenses. And you said, yeah, well, there are like six lenses looking at your referral strategy. I'm like, oh, that sounds like something we need to talk about. So that's what we're going to dig into today. But before we do that, Stacy, I know that you like to really clarify terms such as what is a referral versus word of mouth buzz and some other things like that. So before we begin our discussion, if you could just kind of tell us the definitions that we're going to be working with in this conversation so that we're all starting from the same place.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Absolutely. And I think that's such a good place to start, too, because it is interesting how often I will have conversations with people and they will use terms interchangeably like they're the same thing. And what I have found is time. We've really diluted the power of what a referral is, which when we dilute what we think a referral is, sometimes we don't give it as much time and attention and focus in our business as we should. And it's definitely the holy grail of how people should be focused on growing their business. That doesn't mean you don't need other ways to grow your business, of course. But, you know, when a referral comes in, like when somebody refers you a new client, you know, typically they already know what you do because they've been referred by someone they trust, which also means they're typically quicker to close and easier to close and a lot of of times less price sensitive because they've already assigned value to you because somebody else trusts you and transfer that trust to them. So when we think about, like, why we want a referral, it's like, okay, somebody comes to me from someone else that the trust has already been transferred and they understand what I do. That doesn't mean they've completely made the decision to hire you. But understanding the type of prospect when they're referred to you and they walk in that door, there is. They're just a different level in terms of their willingness to move forward and to have a conversation with you than somebody who may have just been know searching on Houzz and fell and found you and decided like, oh, let me have a conversation with him or her. And so it's just a different level of type of prospect that walks through the door when they've been referred to you. So what I always say is then for as business owners, what we have to recognize is, well, what is the referral? When they walk in the door and they have two things. One, personal connection and two, need identified. And so when a referral source, which is what I call the person who refers you, when your referral source refers you a potential new client, typically what we want them to do is to make the connection to that prospect to that potential new client. We want them to make the connection from the referral source to you to the prospect, because that's where the trust transfer continues. I would say like 90 something percent of the time this is going to happen over email, but it could happen in a group text thread. It could also happen one day when we get back to being in person. It could also happen when you're at an event and like someone's like, oh my gosh, you got to meet my designer. Here is a new client for you. Like, it could happen in that scenario as well. But I think it's important for people to recognize there's always a personal connection. You're always going to be connected to the prospect by the referral source. And the second thing is the prospect, they know they're a prospect. They are in buyer mentality mode. They've identified, they have a problem or something they want to solve or something they want to do. And they're looking for someone to tell them direction in which to go, right? So they're looking to their friend who is your referral source. And they're like, I need to renovate my kitchen. We're building a new house and I want the right design behind it. Like, they're looking for the right person to say, hey, this is who you need to hire. Because they know they have a need. Which means they don't really show up necessarily as tire kickers because they're like, no, this is why I'm willing to be connected with Michelle, because I need what she does. And I trust Stacy to tell me that Michelle can, can do this job right? What it's how you think about these relationships. So it's always, you're going to be personally connected to the prospect by the referral source and the prospect's going to know in this scenario, they are the prospect, they're the buyer, they're the ones making A decision. And that's why they're willing to be connected to you when those two pieces are there and that person shows up either in your inbox or they show up in your group text thread. However it happens, you know, you get to respond differently to that client, that potential client, because they're showing up as a referral, not as someone coming to you cold. And it's just important to recognize that from like filling our pipelines perspective and then the sales process we would put a referred prospect through, like, all those things are really important to recognize how you want to respond when you receive a referral. And then the other thing I would say is I also want you to know when it's so close to being a referral, but it's not. And so you used a term that I use a lot as well, word of mouth buzz. Like a lot of people would be like, oh my gosh, I got a referral the other day. And then they'll tell me, I'm like, actually, you did not. You got word of mouth buzz, which means someone was talking about you, there was a need and somebody out there who needs you, but you don't know who that person is because you were never connected to them by the referral source. So when you recognize what's missing when something's so close to being a referral and you recognize, wait, it doesn't have two parts of the definition, then you know how to take action. And that's really important too.

[Michelle Williams]

I know I. Before I even met you, one of the ways that I've always handled referrals is that same way I usually do. Hey, I'm sending an email introduction. Hey, Michelle, meet Stacy. Stacy, meet Michelle. Stacy, let me tell you a little bit about Michelle and what she needs. Michelle, this is what's so great about Stacy and why you need her. And, you know, I hope you two can connect and move forward with the conversation. And so I do a lot of those always have. And I used to always get frustrated when people would say, oh, I'll give so and so your name. And I'm like, well, why don't you just connect us? Because then I can reach back out. Like, if you just give them my name, I can do nothing about it on this side. I mean, I can't call somebody and go, hey, I've heard that your finances are a mess and that your business really needs some help, and I think I'm here to help. I can't do that, you know, and. Or I hear that your business is growing and it's doing so awesome. I think you could. We need to talk. I mean, that just is icky, right? That's gross. But if somebody were to say, you know, hey, Michelle, meet this person. You know, they're having some challenges and want to talk to you, or, hey, Michelle, meet this person. Their business is growing and exploding and they really want to talk to you, then I can just reach in and say, hey, great. Tell me a little bit about it, and we can just organically and easily continue that conversation. But I would never just pick up the phone and call somebody and say, yeah, I heard you're in trouble, or I heard that you're killing it. Let's talk. And so without that personal connection, it does put us in a very awkward position. Like, we really, without being creepy, can't follow up.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Well, it's so true. And I think it's important for people to recognize if we're looking for a way to grow our business, there's lots of ways to do it, right? There's lots of prospecting and marketing and tactics and tools and things that you can do. But the truth is, from a referral perspective, right, it takes away when someone is referred to you. There is none of the ickiness, right, that exists, and there's none of the uncomfortableness. It's like, hey, I know I have a problem and now I want to talk to you, Michelle. Help me solve it. And that is so valuable in terms of a client showing up, because, you know, it's like the person shows up and says, hey, Michelle, I know my finances are a mess, but take my money. Even though I don't have that much right, I need to fix this. They're like, here, take my money, Michelle, and solve all my issues.

[Michelle Williams]

And I've been told that you can solve it, so help me.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Absolutely. It's the best way to even engage in a conversation with a prospect. I mean, I think about it in my business, right? When somebody comes through, and I have some. A couple of main ways that people are going to find my business. Obviously, referrals is going to be a big way that people find my business. And I find the conversations I have with people who are referred to me to talk about getting themselves more referrals and doing it without asking. When we have that conversation and they've been referred to me, we have a better conversation about their business and where it stands, because they already trust me. And that is such a valuable place for me to be in, for me to decide, can I even help you, or do I actually need to direct you somewhere else versus somebody, which will happen another way. Somebody may stumble across my book on Amazon and read it and then decide to reach out, which is great, too. But they're not coming in already trusting me necessarily, because they don't have someone else vouching for me. So it's just a different way that we kind of pay attention to who our prospects are and what their sources are.

[Michelle Williams]

Perfect. Okay, so when we are going to look at a referral strategy through this layering lens, we're talking about a referral as we've defined it, which means there's a personal connection and a need has been identified.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yes, Correct.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

All right.

[Michelle Williams]

So now that we know what the referral is for, our conversation and we're thinking about the layering of it. And I love layering, just because, let's be honest, even with math, we have to layer it. You know, we don't start first grade and they go, okay, here's quantum physics or something. I mean, we're starting with counting, which then leads to addition and subtraction. You know what I mean? There's always a layering of concepts. And so when we think about the same thing with referrals, tell us where we start. How do we get started with this?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Oh, it's such a good question. Because I think it's important for people to recognize, you know, people talk about referrals like they just fit in one silo. Like, oh, yeah, you just got to get referrals. Oh, my gosh, there's so much more to it. And if we're not careful, we can overwhelm ourselves with what we could be doing versus where we probably need to start and then layer on the other strategies if. And this is a big if we need them. Some people don't and so don't do work you don't need to do. So the way that I always talk about the referral strategy is, first, I want people to recognize there are things that you do from a business development or a sales perspective that you do that are prospecting in nature. And then there are activities and strategy and things that you do to bring in more clients that are marketing. Right. So you may decide that your website is marketing, right? And you. You joining a chamber of commerce or a BNI group or something like that is going to be prospecting. Whereas you have those two, like, distinct strategies in your business. I want you to add a third, and that is your overall referral strategy. I don't ever want you to think about referrals from A marketing or prospecting perspective because everything about it is different. So when we think about, okay, I have a three legged stool, I've got my prospecting that I do, I've got my marketing that I do, and then I have my referral plan that I do. When we think about that referral strategy or that referral plan, the one place we start is determining how are we going to take care of the people who refer us now. So layer number one, we call the existing referral referral source layer. And the idea here is, is I want to receive more referrals from the people who've been referring me, right? From my referral sources, I want to receive more referrals. So it's about how we create a plan with the right language and the right kind of consistency and you know, there's like a cadence to it for how we're going to take care of people, what's the language we're going to use, what are we going to do, how are we going to impact how they feel about us so that we can direct their thoughts to how they think about us from a referral perspective? Because hey, you've been referring me, right? I'll just use us as an example. So Michelle, you've been referring me, right? And I just want to maintain a strong connection and relationship with you and do some special things so that you continue to refer me. Here's what happens. Everybody starts at this layer. Because even if you think to yourself, I don't have any referral sources, the truth is, most of the time when people do the data dive that I asked them to do to determine this step, most of the time they're wrong. Now if you are brand new in business and you haven't even been in business two months, well, then you probably know, right? Because your memory is probably not going to fail you with just a couple of months of being in business, but even a year or two in business, I tell folks like, you're probably forgetting somebody who may have referred you six months ago just because it may not be top of mind for you. So I really always tell people, dig into your business data, Figure out where your clients came from and the clients that were referred to you. Make sure you have names first and last for those referral sources and whether you have three or 33. The truth is you have existing referral sources in your business and we need a plan that we can take care of them throughout the year. Now this is not a daily, a weekly or even a monthly plan, but it is a plan that we're going to take care of those people who've referred us in the past so we can get more referrals Now. Some people do this and they're like, I have three referral sources. What's next? I'm going to need some more referral sources. But others, they're like, wow, I have 42 referral sources and if I just got more from them and also could change the quality a little bit, that's all I'd ever need. And I'm like, good, then you don't actually need layer number two. Most of us do. And it is a skill that most of us need to learn. But what's important about recognizing. Do you have a strong layer number one? Do you have a strong base of existing referral sources that if you just did some things differently, you could get more and better referrals from them? That that's where I want you to hang out. If not, then I want you to look at layer number two.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, before we jump to layer number two, I do remember, you know, I think one of the things that drew the two of us together outside of being Southern, was the idea that we each were looking at numbers and metrics for different things. I was very much and am very much into the financial numbers and metrics and return on those investments. You also were into those same types of numbers on this referral marketing piece. And I remember being challenged. I think you and I even talked about it at Luann Live back in early 19, two years ago. Just going to keep throwing that in because it'll make me feel better that I've been doing this for that long. But I remember thinking you talked about there having a spreadsheet or having some. A reporting system in your CRM where you could tell where the referrals came from. And what is so interesting to me is in my mind, like I could have told you where my top referrals came from, right? I knew who was sending me the most people, but I couldn't quantify it. So I did not have the empirical data to stand behind it because I hadn't captured that. And that's one of the things I've done over the last couple of years is I have just a really great spreadsheet and I have a CRM. I use infusionsoft. And there's a lot of layers to it. But this is fast and quick and dirty and easy for me. And I had those on my team. You know, I have a whole operating procedure set up so that when somebody books a Call with me, we go up and we update my spreadsheet that tells me who they are, what their contact information is, when they reached out, what the referral source was, because I asked directly ask where they heard about me. And then I ask if they were directly referred by another person. Because sometimes they're not coming in necessarily as the referrals and the way that you and I identify them at the beginning, but they are coming in telling me, this person said I had to reach you. And because I require everybody to go through this process to stay consistent, I can see it on there. And I think there were a couple that shocked me but that I saw their name more than once and I don't know that I would have recognized it if I had not kept the data to show me. And so I want to thank you for being just honest with us there and going, you need to have something to track this. Don't just let it be a gut feeling. Have some empirical data because it's made a difference for me to be able to see that. So now I know where I need to spend more time and attention and who my best referral sources are as far as those that are, you know, really. Because some will say on here, XYZ person told me I had to call you or said that I needed to call you. And again, I know it's not exactly as we said it, but it's still that same idea of keeping up with the data for who's connecting you, Right?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Absolutely. And here's what that is though. Right. It truly is a referral. It just started out as word of mouth buzz that flipped itself into a referral because the prospect did follow up and that's how you got that information on your spreadsheet. Yeah. What I love for the person who's telling them you got to call Michelle to then send an email to. Of course. But as long as they're making their way to you, then that's good too. Right. I mean, from that perspective.

[Michelle Williams]

And you're right, sometimes they do. But you know, even if they were connect this in email, I'm going to immediately send them back through this process. I mean it's just the process that I'm going to send them through. Right. But. But you're right that it word of mouth buzz can flip into a direct referral.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yes. And that's. And it's important that like you have a system to capture it so it doesn't like fall through the cracks. But you're right about the ability to go back and not Go off your gut. There's so many times I'm telling folks, go with your gut. This is not one of those times. This is one of the times I'm like, actually your gut's probably going to lie to you and so is your memory. So I really need you to go p the data and I need you to look back through it. Like where do your people come from? And you know, most people who go through this process. Whereas, and you know, I've said this before, it's not a sexy step. I mean it's get into the data, it's trying to remember if you don't have great records of where people came from and maybe looking back through your calendar invites or your email threads and like searching back for sent emails you've sent to this person back in the day when they first came on board, or maybe even asking them where they heard about you or how they first came to know you. Like, nothing about that process can be all that sexy and fun. But I believe and my folks who go through this process and it's the same thing you experienced when you did it, it's empowering. It is empowering to know I can make different decisions in my business not just from knowing who's referring me, but what if I'm spending thousands of dollars on XYZ lead gen source and not one person says they're coming from that, but over here I'm doing something and all these people are coming over here and I'm barely putting any energy behind it. Like that is eye opening to understanding what your business is like trying to.

[Michelle Williams]

Tell you, well, and again, because of the way that I've been doing my now they're even putting in. I've heard you at XYZ conference for the last three years. So now I'm going, okay, so that means that it's worth it for me to go speak at that conference because I'm going to get potential clients from it.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

You know what I mean?

[Michelle Williams]

My people are there, so it's been great. And I just want to tell you thank you for mentioning it when you were on stage and talking about your chapter and the book that you've written as well as the one that you wrote in the shared book that we did because it made me come back and go, you know what? That's not a place where my process is as tight as I want it and I need to tighten that up. I want to know, so thank you for that. All right, so existing referral source layer is number one. So what is number Two.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

So layer number two is what we call the potential referral source layer. So this is the goal of this layer is to take clients and contacts and turn them into referral sources. This is sometimes what I tell folks is like, it's that wish list. It's like, oh my gosh, this person's so well connected, I wish they would refer me. Or this client says amazing things about me or to me about the work that I did for them. I just wish they would send more people to me just like them. They're my dream client. Like, it's that idea of you thinking about who are the clients or the contact. I call them centers of influence. So cois. But who are the clients and the contacts in your network that you wish were referring you. Here's the thing, you may wish that this to be a hundred people, and that's fine. The reality is how you start turning those clients and contacts into referral sources means we're going to identify that big old list. And maybe it's 10, maybe it's 100, it doesn't matter. But then we're going to go through a step by step process with a small number of them to start the process of turning into them referral sources. Because a lot of people, like, they'll put in layer number one, they're like, okay, great, I've got 15 referral sources. It's amazing. I've got this plan Stacey taught me. I'm going to take care of the people with this touchpoint plan we just put into place. It's like six times a year, eight times a year, whatever their number is, this is how I'm going to take care of the people who've referred me. And they have language around that and they know what they're doing and they know the cadence in which they're doing it. And then they say, well, I'm just going to take this layer one and I'm just going to go do it for people in layer number two, the people I wish were referring to me. And I'm always like, timeout, timeout, timeout. That's not how it works. Because there is already a showing of action and habit in someone who refers you. And so you can move quicker and faster in taking care of them and deepening the relationship with them and using what we call referral seed language with them, where it actually starts impacting how they think about you, which is how we end up ultimately getting more referrals from them. Because they've already referred you. Somebody who's never referred you before we just gotta back it up a little bit. And we've gotta think about this from the perspective of, of hey, we actually do need to go through the know like and trust factor, right? And we gotta think through that continuum of how do we get this person to a place to where they would be comfortable putting their reputation on the line by referring someone to you. Now, for clients that love you, you can move a little bit faster. But still a client who loves you but yet has never referred you isn't thinking about it in that way. So there's still a process we work through and we go through and it takes a little bit longer to actually identify people who we would love to refer us, us who are actually capable of referring us, which is another layer to the identification and then figuring out, okay, now how am I going to engage with them? And there's a process that I teach, but how am I going to engage with them? What's it going to look like and how am I going to nurture this relationship until. And what am I going to say, right, until they give me that first referral? Because we know when that client that you want to refer you gives you that first referral as you're following layer number two. Well, we know where they get, they pop on over to layer number one because now they've referred us and they're part of our existing referral sources. And so they can come out of layer one and go exactly where we want them to go to layer number. They can come out of layer number two and go where we want them to go, which is layer number one. And that's really important of a process for people to understand. These may be layers, but they are interconnected in some ways.

[Michelle Williams]

And then once we have enough at layer number one, like you said earlier, we can skip layer number two. I think it's also important, at least in my experience, Stacy, when I was identifying some people in that second layer, to really think about who were the people that I. Let's say that they were clients, right? Who are people that I have helped that I would want to help somebody who was just like them with the same problem. Because that's easy for them to speak into, right? It's so easy. And so I think one aspect of that that I just want to kind draw a line under and maybe put a little virtual highlight on is we don't want to do this with just any of our clients. We want to do those do this with our clients or with those people where we want to repeat it and we know that. That the leads and the referrals are quality and that they fit our ideal client.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yes. And that's really important. And here's what I always tell folks, is you need to have an like. Just like you said, you need to have an understanding of who you think can give you the right referrals that you're looking for. But I also want you to understand you probably are going to make some mistakes. I always tell folks we're going to kiss a lot of frogs before we get to our princes and our princesses, before we find the people who are actually not just built to refer us, but then actually willing to execute on it as well. And it's never going to be 100% of your clients. I tell folks, let's aim for the 20 to 30% that we would love to have refer us, and then we can grow from there. But recognizing even that amazing client that loves you so much may never refer you, but this other client you never saw coming does. Right. And it'll surprise you as to what they can refer you. But knowing what you're looking for, obviously going into this process will help you understand, well, if I know what I'm looking for in terms of ideal client, who do I believe right for? My clients and contacts can kind of provide that type of ideal client. But just recognize you're going to kiss some frogs before we get to that prince and that princess of who that can actually start referring us. Because it is a process and we've just got to work through it.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, so after that, then we have, you know, we're taking care of those that we're serving that are already referring to us. We're now looking to identify some new people that could become referral sources for us. And we are, you know, trying to turn them into that. Looking at people that have centers of influence, we're nurturing that relationship with the hope of moving them into that first layer. What then is the third layer?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Okay, so this is where we kind of start separating things out, and we look at front half and back half of these six layers. So what you do in layer number one and layer number two for your existing referral sources and the potential referral sources, I always tell folks they're like their own bucket because these are the humans that you can very well identify where you can get more referrals from. And that's ultimately what we're looking at. Getting more from existing referral sources, taking a potential referral source, getting that first one, and then getting more from them. Right. So layer one and layer two, they're actually, and I actually have like a one page PDF visual of this for people to understand. Okay, how does layer number one and layer number two connect? Because they are connected then from those two layers. Basically think about it like if you've got two boxes and they're interconnected, then from those you got these three lines coming out of it. That kind of directs us right to the other four layers. Because it's actually not so much about developing a plan and a process and what like it's going to look like to take care of people. Now we're going to move into the other four layers and it's going to be more tactical things we can do as we're trying to get people to consider referring us. So the other four layers are going to be. It's going to be what, what do we do in networking situations? What do we do in new client situations? And what do we do when we have a referred prospect? And then what do we do when we have a non referred prospect? And then it's more so about the strategies and the skills. You have to know how to plant referral seeds so that in those scenarios you are starting early in the process to see if any of those seeds would actually bear fruit and eventually have that person, whether it's at a networking event, a referred or non referred prospect or new client, start referring you as well. Does that make sense?

[Michelle Williams]

It does. So how would you title that third one? Because that was a lot.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yeah. So actually I have have broken it down. I've broken layer numbers. I actually just call it layer 3, 4, 5 and 6 and they're all much more language tactical.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, got it, I got it.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yep. And so, and I really feel like what layer three through six, which is all that language tactical pieces of what we want to do in different scenarios, it's still always supporting layer one and layer one and layer two. Like it's always going back to the same thing, which is more referrals. And referrals only come from people. Right. They come from huge. So we always need to be cultivating that relationship with our existing referral sources, our potential referral sources. And so really layers 3, 4, 5, 6, like when we think about them, they're kind of funneling people into that potential referral source layer so that we can get them over to the existing referral source layer.

[Michelle Williams]

All right, so I'm just going to tell you my head is spinning on this one. So when you're saying 3, 4, 5 and 6, are you talking specifically about from a networking perspective, more like I think you mentioned like 1 and 2 would be more strategy and 3, 4, 5 and 6 are more tactical. Is that what I heard you say?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Let's go one step further with how we define strategy and tactical. So layers one and two are strategy based on people we've identified, whether they are referring us or we want them to. It's a strategy, It's a plan we.

[Michelle Williams]

Have for the people that we know, right?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

For the people that we are already referring us and we want more are the people that we wish were referring us, right?

[Michelle Williams]

Because we either work with them or have a relationship with them or something. So it's people identified and known, right?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

And so it's, it's that strategy of what we do with the humans, right? That's how I always like to think about. It's the strategy we do with the humans, right? And that's one and two versus Actually what I refer to when you think about tactical, it's the language tactical piece for layers three, four, five and six. And there are four times. I mean, I think you can make the argument there more than this, but I like to bucket into these four times when I want you to have some tactics around the language you speak to plant referral seeds in four different scenarios. So one of those will be networking, one of those will be new clients and your client experience. Another one will be prospects that are referred to you, and the last one will be prospects that are not referred to you. There are language tactics in each of those four scenarios that you can plant referral seeds to see if we can like drum up an interest rate for those folks to eventually down the line refer us, which pushes them into layer number two and eventually over to layer number one.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay? So I'm going to tell you in my brain how this breaks out and tell me if I am understanding it correctly in the way that, like if I'm a note taker, right? Which I am. So layer number one, and I think that you said something that made it connect with me. And that is the whole goal here is about how to get people into layer one. Ultimately. The whole goal, the goal is to get people to be a referral source. And I think that's what I can't forget, right? Because otherwise it's almost like your brain wants to take you down solving some other problems. And I mean, at least for me. So if we're looking at it and we're saying what is the problem I want to solve or what is the outcome that I want. My outcome is that I want more people, more quality people to be a referral source. Right. So number one, if I understand correctly, is known referral sources. They are actually actively referring us to people that we enjoy working with or have an opportunity to work with or whatever, and we're going to take care of them. Number two is potential resource layer. So this is people that we know. Like you said, they're known and identified, but they're not currently referring us. So we're going to be doing the work to build relationship, to plant those seeds of referral, to give them information to help them become a referral partner. And when they become that referral partner or referral source, we move them into number one. So there could be a time where number one, if you will, is loaded up and number two is in between. There could be a time where we have people that are in number one and some that are in number two. Because we're still kind of working out that relationship and giving them the ability to refer us, right?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yes.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, then if we look at 3, 4, 5 and 6, we'll say that the four of those together are tactical language based on where we are with these particular people types.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Like in situations.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, situations. So let's just say number three and from. I wrote them down in the order you said, so I'm just going to use that order. Number three would be language tactical for networking. Number four, it would be language tactical for new clients and that client experience. Number five would be the language tactical piece for referred prospects. And number six would be the language tactical piece for non referred prospects.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Perfect.

[Michelle Williams]

Did I do that right?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Okay, you nailed it.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

And I'll tell folks if they're like, okay, that was such a goal. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Michelle Williams]

With the goal of while we're networking and while we're getting these new clients and while we're working with people that have been referred and not referred, not only that we are serving them in the situation that we are meeting them in, but in addition that we are planting those seeds because they may choose not to work with us, but they may know somebody else who could.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Absolutely. Or they may never be in a situation to be able to work with us. But that doesn't mean. Right. They can't be a contact, not a client, but a contact that could eventually send people to us. Absolutely. And so. Okay, I think it's important when people think about this and if it makes, if it's helpful, I have a link on my website where we literally just have this PDF where you can just go get it and be like, okay, let's. Let me visually see these boxes as Stacy's been talking about these six layers. And it's just stacybrownrandall.com layering. So really, it's just a one pager. It's pretty, it's in color. But you'll see layer one and layer two, just as you described it. They are interlocking boxes that are together. And then the other side of the PDF is like, okay, you can see distinct these other four opportunities for those. Language tactics.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, so when you say language tactics, are you just talking about in general? And I know you've got a book and you have training and all of that, but just to understand that concept, are you talking about just the way that we speak about things? I'll tell you, it was funny. I remember doing an educational event, oh, gosh, probably all the way back in 2009, 2010. And at the end of it, I just directly said, you know, I. It was a small gathering. So it was people that I enjoyed. It was people in our industry. And I just made the comment, you know, hey, guys, I've really enjoyed serving you. I've enjoyed helping you. If you know other people that are challenged the same way, you know, I'd love an opportunity to work with them too. And so, you know, if there is a way that. That if you want to introduce us, I would be happy to take care of them the way I've taken care of you. And I would look at that as a seed that I was dropping because I wasn't forcing anything. It was just a. If this worked for you, tell somebody and I'll help too. And I think sometimes we forget to. I love the seed idea. We forget to drop them. But when you drop a seed, you also sometimes need to go back and water it and take care of it and help it grow a little bit, right?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Absolutely. And so, you know, for some people, it would feel very natural, like it did for you to say afterwards, hey, if this was helpful for you, tell somebody. Other people would be like, oh, my gosh, that's asking for a referral. Like, I can't do that. And I do think there's an important piece here where you recognize the difference between asking someone to put their. Their reputation on the line and send someone to you that has the potential to send money, spend money with you, versus sharing it with people that may find it helpful. And so I do think it's important. I think those are lines that get blurred a lot in this world. In terms of when we're talking about from a referral perspective. So I think depending on whatever side you fall on, on it's your comfort level with what that looks like. But you're exactly right. There are moments that are going to happen, right? In your scenario, it was moments that happened at the end of some of training, right, where you're able to say, hey, if this was helpful, right? There are moments that are going to happen. And what I want you to be armed with is the language you're going to use in those moments to start to see if we can plant those referral seeds that something can grow. The truth is, we know this, Michelle, sometimes we throw some seeds out there and they land on concrete and they're going nowhere but off into the wind and they're going to be lost and they're not going to grow roots. They're never going to sprout. Right. Other times, though, we're actually going to spread those seeds on very fertile ground and we can actually cultivate a relationship with someone that's actually going to end up referring us. And so it's the ability for you just to be ready in those scenarios. And so let's look at this from the networking perspective, right? When we're in networking mode, there's always a lot of things happening. And I know networking is more virtual nowadays than it actually ever was in the past. Going to be back to a balance of this virtual versus in person networking. And so for me, what I just want to know is like when you're at a networking event, I don't need you to say this every single time if you don't want to. But if you're in a networking event and you're having a conversation with somebody, and let me give you the perfect kind of example takeaway, use this the next time you're having a conversation with somebody, whether it's at a networking event or at the neighborhood barbecue, it doesn't matter to me. And somebody says, hey, Michelle, how's business? There's a moment in that networking when that question is almost always asked, or how's it going? How's business? Instead of saying it's great or it's so busy or oh my gosh, I'm so slammed, or if maybe sometimes we're being totally honest, well, it could be better, right? Instead of those types of throwaway responses, I just want you to have the strategy, the skill, the language that says, oh, wait, in this scenario, I'm just going to say, actually, things are really good. We brought in over 20 new students. If I was talking about it from my world, hey, business is really good. We brought in over 20 new students into my Growth by Referrals program last month.

[Michelle Williams]

Month.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

And about 70% of them all came by referrals. Like, it's the ability for you to talk about this from a networking perspective about referrals in that moment, I'm not forcing the conversation. I'm hoping there's an interest there. I'm hoping they're saying, wow, that's amazing. Like, when you say referrals, what do you mean? Or who's referring you? And then I can start having the conversation with them specific to their situation, whether or not the person I'm talking to is a future referral source or not. Right. I don't quite know that yet. Unless I know enough about them having a conversation, I can kind of determine it. Right. But then I can also guide the conversation. I can also just say, oh, my gosh, business is awesome. 50% of my clients last month came in from referrals. It's bonanzas how many referrals we get from our existing clients. Plant the seed and then say, how's business for you? But don't necessarily try to engage in a conversation. It's just the skillset. I want people to have to be thinking about these opportunities. And there's not like, in the networking box, there's not like 50 different opportunities. There's a couple and the new client box. There's not like a thousand different opportunities to plan a referral. See, with your new clients or that client experience, there's a handful. Right. So it's just those tactical pieces that I know will make your life easier as you're trying to move people into box number two so that we can get them to box number one or layer number one.

[Michelle Williams]

So what I. What I love about this is I'm all about. I did a whole podcast. I'll have to look up which one it is, but it's called Begin with the End in Mind. And what that means is what do we want the end result of our conversation to be in this particular case? Well, at the end of it, I want them to, you know, if we are looking for it to be a referral or a prospect or whatever that we want them to become in that, a referral source in that layer one. If that is the end goal, then that just means, like you said, that we're peppering our language. We're sprinkling in and these seeds or these opportunities to think about referrals. A lot of times I know that I've thought about somebody that I've worked with, that I loved working with, and I would have given their name out, but I didn't think about how to do it. And the more that they make it easy for me to think about it, the more often I would do it. Right now, if somebody came up to me and said, michelle, I'm struggling with all of my referral pieces, I would without blinking go, oh, my gosh. Well, you need to know, Stacy, let me introduce you. But you know, when on the day to day when you're going through it, I'm not thinking, oh, let me go refer Stacy. Let me go. Any more than anybody's thinking the same about me. We're just, that's just, we're busy, right? But I know that when I've worked with people, that made it easy for me to refer them, meaning they gave me. And this, this may not be what you're talking about, but even just giving me a couple extra business cards, just, you know, back in the day when we use business cards, giving me something, and I'm not talking about something for my own personal gain, I'm talking about a tool or a handout, something, or just made it easy. Like, you know, I would love to work with them. Here's where you just even telling me where to tell them to go and how to contact them. Just because some people want text, some want email, some want to go through a form on their website just giving me information so that I know the proper way to connect. That changes my referrals because otherwise I'm like, well, I'd like to refer you, but I know they don't like to answer the phone and they really get really irritated with texts. I'm not really sure how to. You know what I'm saying? It's like, tell me how to help you. And I think that's one of those seeds that we plant.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

You know, it's really interesting, I would actually say your sense of make it easy on me to be able to refer you put you actually in the minority. And I think that is because you.

[Michelle Williams]

Well, I am a unicorn. You do know that.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

That's what I mean. Like, and this makes you even more of a unicorn, right?

[Michelle Williams]

I'll tell my husband. He'll be so excited.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Like, let's just keep making Michelle more unicorns. But I think it's important to recognize why you think like that, because people do think like that out there in the world. The unfortunate reality is they're in the minority, most people are just like, whatever is easiest for me to refer you, that's what I'm going to do. And so a lot of times it's like, if someone ever says, how can I refer you? I'm like, just, Is email easy? Yeah. Then just email me and copy the other person on the email. Right. Like, I know how to use that language in those moments to make it really easy for me to be able to follow up with people. But lots of people, you know, when you think about, like, making it easy on them to refer, it's usually what is easiest for them. The fact that you think about it from the other person's perspective, that's what puts you in the minority, because you're right. Nobody wakes up and says, how can I help Stacy grow her business today? I mean, nobody wakes up and says that about me. They don't say that about you. They don't say that about anybody. We wake up thinking, how am I going to grow my business today? And so it's that mentality of just kind of how we think about things, which is obviously why I think that puts you in the minority. But I do think business owners who are cognizant of referrals in their world, or more cognizant of. Of doing the referrals for others as well.

[Michelle Williams]

Exactly.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

And so I think that's what makes it a little bit different.

[Michelle Williams]

Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, I know how important referrals are for me, for my business. I do coaching for, you know, large firms that. That have, you know, million, 5 million running through their company. And so they want to be super careful. And many of them have worked with a lot of other people, or, you know, they just want to make certain that they're at a pivot point or they're at a growth point, an acceleration point, and time is of the essence, and they want to make sure they're getting the right person at the right place at the right time. And so when they've got that transfer of trust from somebody else, it makes that process quicker. And we can even quickly decide, are we meant to work together or are we not? We're not starting from cold, hard ground. Right. And so it is. It really is a big deal. And because I know what that's like to have a conversation with somebody who's already been warmed up to that conversation, I want to help warm up other people. You know, and I want to say this, too, Stacy. Just because you and I have done this for each other as well, it's not even always about getting a client. It's about referring people that can help you in some way. I know I was looking for a resource recently and reached out and just asked you, hey, do you happen to have a resource in this particular area? And you're like, you know, I really think I do. Let me. And I told you, kind of, here's what I'm looking for. You're like, let me go find out, you know, from her if that's really what she does. And then if so, I'll connect you. And then you did, and you connected us, and now, you know, we're planning a few things together. But it was never about a client. It was about a need that I had to support my clients. Right. And you were able to do that for me. So I think we don't need to lose sight of referral, as always, meaning direct income from a client. It really could just be somebody else that could offer something that could enrich or enhance our business or our life in some way.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

It's so true. And, you know, it's interesting. When I'm working with the clients that are going through my Growth by Referrals program, they'll have that same question. They'll be like, hey, this person hasn't referred me a paying client per se, but they've referred me people who have become my referral sources just by connecting me from a greater networking perspective. I'm like, that's just as valuable. We're not. We can't always assign the dollar amounts as easy as trackable, maybe sometimes as we want to. But somebody connecting you with somebody who will become a huge referral source for you. You like, when I look at it, when I'm working with my VIPs and we're looking at the web, we call it like the spider's web of the referrals and where they kind of go and come from. And hey, this person referred me to this person. Now this person's referred me to six people. And at those six people, that person referred me to four more people, like, and it all goes back to that initial person who actually never referred you a paying client, but referred you people who could. And so I tell my students, track it all. Like, track when you get referred a client, of course. And then obviously, I want you to track the outcome of that as well. I want you to take care of your referral source regardless of who they refer you, becomes a client or not. But I do want you to track the outcome. I also want you to track when are they referring you right. To somebody else in terms of that person can then refer you. Right. And so from that perspective, like, if using that scenario of like, you reached out to me and said, hey, do you know somebody? And I was like, yeah, I do. Right. From her perspective, we'll call her Sarah. So it doesn't get confusing with the names. But like, from her perspective, Sarah would be thinking about it as Stacy referred me to Michelle. Right. And so that is the way that she would be looking at it from that perspective. But I didn't refer to Michelle to do business, but the potential to be a resource for Michelle and who knows where that will take the relationship.

[Michelle Williams]

Exactly. You know, so as we wrap this up, I think there's one other little piece that I know we talked about before, but I do think that it bears repeating in this is when somebody asks you, you know, Michelle or Stacy, or fill in the blank with your name, who would be a good referral for you? I think we need to make sure that we can easily articulate who our ideal client is or the ideal business that. Or need that we have. And so the more nebulous we are, the more, you know, kind of shot in the dark it's going to be, but the more clear that we can be on, this is a perfect type of client, or this is the type of needs that my clients have, or. Or this is the need that I have to fill in my business, then I think we're going to have better referral outcomes. I know that sometimes when people will go, I need more business. Okay, well, what do you need? And they can't tell me. I'm like, well, I don't even know how to help you. I mean, I know it sounds like crazy. It's true, but it's true. Again, I think that goes back to that. I'm willing to help you, but you've got to tell me how. So we need to take the time to sit and think about, what do we want? Who do we want to work with, what needs do we have? Or what needs could we offer somebody else if somebody were saying, how do I refer you? Well, here's what I do, right. Kind of looking at ourselves on both sides of the referral. And I am just kind of amazed sometimes that we don't give that the thought and the attention that it really needs to be served. Well, because then sometimes we're complaining, look who these people are sending me. Yet we've never sat down and told them who to send.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

You know, it is really fascinating and I always Tell folks, like, I don't ever want you. The way I'm going to teach you is I'm never going to teach you to, to go up to somebody and be like, hey, I need business, so send me some people. Right? I am never going to teach you that. But if someone like Michelle is having a conversation with you and says, how can I help you? Oh, my gosh, I want you to be ready to take advantage of that opportunity. So if I say to you, how can I help you or Michelle? You say to somebody, how can I help you? You're absolutely right. I want them to be able to say, say, oh, my gosh, really? Thank you so much. I mean, I first want them, like, do they mean it sometimes?

[Michelle Williams]

Yes.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Yeah, Sometimes people say, let me know how I can help you as they're like, walking out the door because they don't mean it. And I want you to be able to discern when somebody means it or when they're just saying it to be polite and pleasantries. But if someone says, hey, Stacy, like, tell me, how can I help you?

[Michelle Williams]

What do you really need, Stacy? Tell me. Right? That kind of thing.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Right. Like, I want to be ready to answer it and you need to be ready to answer. Like, we all need to be ready to answer it. So it's important. And let's be honest, how we answer that question also has a lot to do with how well we know you. Right. So, I mean, the truth is there are a few target industries where my program, like, works wonders and I focus on those industries on purpose. But having a conversation with you, I could certainly tell you that attorneys do great in my program. So if you ever know any of attorneys. Right. But that's not as relevant as being like, well, you know who else is kicking butt in my program? Program? Interior designers. Right. Like, that's more relevant to you to how you would even be thinking about me down the road or keeping me right top of mind in that perspective. So I want you to be ready to answer the question when the person asks it. What I don't want you to do is force it upon them when they haven't even shown any interest, because that's how we damage relationships.

[Michelle Williams]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, I don't like that either. Says, here's what I need and this is what I need you to go get for me. But I do think that when the question is asked, we need to know. I mean, I'll give you just a, a real prime example on the financial side, when I'm Working with a new client. And I say to. And say to them, you know, I might hear this. The business is growing. Okay, great. I want the business to continue to grow and scale. Okay, awesome. That's what I specialize in. Okay, so. And I'll ask them, so tell me, what are the lifestyle needs that the business needs to support crickets? What kind of salary do you need to make? Make crickets? And I'm like, okay, if you. If any of us were to go work in corporate, we would have an idea. So is it that you don't know because you haven't thought about it or because you don't know where. What's possible? So let's say all things are possible. Now tell me what you want. Because we can't build what nobody knows and can't recognize. Right. We got to have a starting place. And so I think the same thing is true with referrals. I can remember at one time somebody asking me, so, Michelle, what is an ideal client for you? So that if I run across somebody or know somebody, I can connect you. And the first time they asked me that, I kind of gulped and I thought, you know, I don't know that I have ever thought about how to succinctly answer that. Now I certainly can. But at the time, I couldn't. Just like some people can't tell me what salary they want. So I get it. I've been there. I'm just saying it certainly makes it easier for somebody else to go, oh, my gosh, lawyers. I know lawyers. I got lawyers in my family or my neighbor is a lawyer. Or interior designers. I know interior designers. I can send some your way if, you know, if I see that, that they would be a good fit for you. So it is. It's being able to just articulate it when you're, like you said, truly asked. Not again. None of this is running up and foisting this on anybody. We're not. Not beating anybody over the head to be a referral partner. This is because somebody's asking to wanting to. There's a synergy. But I think we enhance that synergy when we give them the tools to help us.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Absolutely. And in some cases, it really is looking at it from the perspective like, hey, someone's actually offering. Let's make sure we're ready and prepared. Right. To take advantage of their offer. And in other cases, it's, you've never offered, but I really want referrals from you. So I'm going to do what I need to do to nurture relationship with you and know the language to plant so that I can get you to start thinking about me from a referral perspective so I can get that first referral from you and you thinking it was your idea. Right. And then of course, moving you on over where I can take care of you to get more referrals from you in the future. I want you to be able to do both.

[Michelle Williams]

I love it. I love it. So, Stacy, tell us where you're hanging out online these days and tell us a little bit about your Growth by Referrals program. Yes.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

So I mean, everywhere you probably look online, just full name. I'm gonna make it as many letters as possible for you to type when you're looking me up online with Stacy Brown Randall. And Stacy has an E, but that's the website. You can find me on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, all the places as well. But you know what I really always tell folks is that when you're thinking through your referral strategy and what you want it to look like for you, I have so many free resources out there with my book, with my podcast, I have this referral ninja quiz you can take to figure out where you're starting from. But ultimately, where I want you to be able to land and where I want you to be able to do and to know how to do it is what I teach in my Growth by Referrals program. And that is the ability for you to know how to identify my referral sources. Then what do I do for my existing referral sources to take care of them. Then once I have that plan and language and piece in place, then we're going to teach you still inside the Growth by Referrals program. Same program. We're going to then teach you another. You're going to go through another training that's going to say, okay, now let's identify those potentials and let's get them to really start referring you to. And that's what the Growth by Referrals program is built to do. It's built to help you understand, here's who your referral sources are, here's how you need to take care of them and what to say. Here's who you want to refer you, here's how you identify them, and here's what you do to get that first referral. And at the same time, we can talk about how do you follow up after a referral is received and how do you change the quality when you're not getting the quality and what's the language you use when you're talking to that referred prospect and you want them to close into a yes client. There's all those pieces. Now, I will say inside my Growth by Referrals program, some of Those other layers, 1 and 2, locked and loaded layer 1 and 2, locked and loaded and the Growth by Referrals program. But some of the other things we talked about, layers, you know, 3, 4, 5 and 6, they actually come through other areas or you just don't need them until the next level training that you would need above and beyond Growth by referrals because that's where you've got to start. So some of it's in there, but not all of it.

[Michelle Williams]

Okay, great. Well, I will have all of that in the show notes. And so I'm just really thankful for the conversation today. You know, I learned something every single time. Even just that tiny little nuance, that tiny little thing that I can start to add in to be like, okay, I need to think about that more or I need to be intentional about this piece or that wording or whatever. So I really appreciate the conversation and going deeper into those six layers. So thank you, Stacy.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.

[Michelle Williams]

All right, well, I will tell you goodbye and tell everybody to go back to and listen to if you want, episode 27, referrals, without asking for a full pipeline. And Stacy, what is the name of your podcast?

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Roadmap to grow your business.

[Michelle Williams]

Roadmap to grow your Business. So it's really action packed there, quick episodes. And so I would highly recommend that everybody listen to that. And again, we'll link your podcast in my podcast in the show notes so that everybody can get to it. And just thank you so much for sharing today.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

Thank you.

[Michelle Williams]

Thanks for joining me for my podcast Takeover on the Roadmap to Referrals podcast. I hope you'll visit my podcast podcast Profit is a choice and connect with me on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook. All of the links to connect with me can be found in the show notes below. And I look forward to seeing you again sometimes. Now back to Stacy.

[Stacy Brown Randall]

I hope you enjoyed this episode. I actually pulled this one back from the vault. I was actually on Michelle's podcast a couple of years ago when I used to talk about the referrals and the referral strategy that your business needs, needs really needs to have layers to it or we. We refer to those as our six layers, which you heard Michelle and I go through. That was a number of years ago. I've kind of evolved in how I talk about your referrals in your business and I talk about them as an ecosystem. The labelings changed layers ecosystem the labelings change the content still the same. Those two layers are what exist inside your referral ecosystem. So so please make sure that you show some love to our podcast host to Michelle by checking out her podcast, Profit is a Choice and of course more information on her business and how to connect with her on social media. Find out more about what she does and how she works with her clients. And of course subscribe and listen to our podcast can be found on the Show Notes page for this episode. And the Show Notes page for this episode is Stacey Brown randall.com forward/ so that's Stacy with an e. And of course the episode number is 368368. Okay, we are back with another great episode next week created with you and your needs in mind. Until then, you know what to do my friend. Take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now.

[Michelle Williams]

Sam.