← Roadmap to Referrals
Roadmap to Referrals
Ep #371: Interior Designers, Relationships and Referrals
00:54:30
Are you tired of the awkwardness that comes with asking for referrals? I’m excited to share this takeover episode with renowned interior designer LuAnn Nigara, and host of the popular podcast A Well-Designed Business. Together, we discuss the...
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- [00:05]
Stacy Brown Randall
Hey there and welcome to the Roadmap to Referrals Podcast, a show that proves you can generate referrals without asking or manipulation. I'm your host, Stacy Brown Randall. I'm a card carrying member of the Business Failure Club, have taught my Referrals Without Asking methodology and strategy to clients in more than 14 countries around the world and my mission is to help you unleash and referral explosion by leveraging the science of referrals and respecting your relationships. Did you miss our announcement a few weeks ago about our in person two day workshop where we go from creation to execution on your referral strategy? It's called the Referral Accelerator. We opened registration for our final 2025 accelerator which will be held in September in Charlotte. If there's still any seats available, you can find them@staceybrownrandall.com accelerator. I hope to see you in September. All right. We are moving right along with the final three Podcast Takeover episodes and this week I'm excited to welcome Luann Nogara back to the podcast. She was with me on episode 362 we which we will link to that episode in the Show Notes page for this episode which is stacybrownrandall.com 371. Don't forget Stacy has an E. Luann is the owner of Window Works in New Jersey. She's the host of a very popular and quite viral podcast called A well Designed Business and the author of multiple books, one of which she and I are co authors together. She interviewed me on her podcast. Actually she's interviewed me a couple of times on her podcast. And and one thing I want you guys to know about this interview is Luann's podcast are in depth, they are like long and each of her interviews typically run about an hour, which is different from what you guys are used to with me. So I'm excited to have Luann take over this episode of the podcast and interview me for you guys to hear. So here we go. Buckle up, let's get to it.
- [02:15]
Luann Nigara
Hi, this is Luanne Aguero from A well Designed Business podcast and I am doing a podcast Takeover Today of the Roadmap to Referrals Podcast. Here is an episode where I interviewed Stacy over on my show. Now I know you know Stacy, you love her. That's why you listen to her show. I'm just going to share with you a few things about Stacy that I love. I love how passionate she is about teaching entrepreneurs how to find money in their existing business. I really feel like that's drilling down exactly what she does. I have invited Stacy in the past to collaborate in one of my books. I've invited Stacy to be on my Luann Live stages and my Power Talk Friday stages. And this is because every time I collaborate with Stacy, she brings such tremendous value to all of the people in the room. And I am so delighted for you to hear Stacy on the other side of the mic. Here we go. Hi, Stacey. Thanks so much for coming back on a well designed business today.
- [03:13]
Stacy Brown Randall
Oh my gosh, Lou, I'm so excited to be back.
- [03:16]
Luann Nigara
Well, first of all, we for. It's been too long since you've been on the show. Number one, duh. Like, what the heck with that. But I have to just tell everybody because right as we're recording, we're about a week and a half, two weeks out of our exciting Windows Conference and IWCE in Charlotte, and you came and keynoted for our exciting Windows Conference. And I'm going to tell you what, like, you know, when you do evaluations for an event that you run Stace, and you're like, what was your favorite thing? And you know, it's good when people like different parts, but when every single one is like, what was your highlight? It was like, stacy Brown Randall, Stacey Brown Randall, Stacy Brown Randall. I mean, I think fully 90% of the evaluations just were like, stacy Brown Randall killed it. So I just, you know, have to share that on air, give you that cred. And of course I wasn't surprised, but it was nice. And I did feel really super happy that it was my idea to have you.
- [04:17]
Stacy Brown Randall
Well, it was a lot of fun. They were a great group and they, their questions like, they just didn't stop coming. I told Vin, I was like, I feel like I'm running over. How far over did I go? He was like, it was like a couple of minutes, you're fine. I was like, because I wanted to answer all the questions. They were a great group and it was a lot of fun. So thank you for having me.
- [04:34]
Luann Nigara
Yeah, no, we're delighted. I mean, it's their hardcore business people over there. Exciting windows. I mean, they're, you know, and what's interesting and what I love about our exciting Windows group is that we have people that are, you know, doing up to $500,000 a year in gross sales and we have people that are doing 15 million-plus and we all work together and we collaborate and we help, we break off into our groups so that, you know, different, like people can kind of get help from the people at their stage. But one of the real hallmarks of Exciting Windows is the cross collaboration. So if you're doing a million, you get a lot of opportunity to sit and talk and learn and collaborate with people. Are doing 3 and 5 million because it's like having that crystal ball into the future. Like, what are the problems that I don't even know, I don't know I'm going to have? And, you know, somebody next to you has already kind of navigated it. So that's one of my favorite things about Exciting Windows is the collaboration. So.
- [05:30]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yeah, well, it was, it was a lot of fun and I really appreciated that you had everybody come to me in Charlotte. It made it really easy to get there to be able to speak.
- [05:40]
Luann Nigara
Exactly. Oh, my goodness. Okay, so here's the thing for, you know, since you've been on the show, the show has grown tremendously here. We have a lot of new listeners that probably might know you from your own podcast, but may not know you at all. So your whole thing is growth by referrals is referral marketing. And you have a completely different approach than what we think of when we think of referral marketing. So why don't you just kind of share that with us, your, like, philosophy and your point of view on this. So we set the table.
- [06:14]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yeah. So, you know, for decades and decades and decades, there's been a few traditional, or what we call old school ways to generate referrals. And they'll be like, you gotta ask for them, you gotta compensate for them. You've got to be gimmicky and promotional. Right. Put in your email signature, the greatest compliment you can give me as a referral. And these have been around for, like, probably longer than I've been alive. Like, they've really been. And I'm like 12, so.
- [06:37]
Luann Nigara
Just kidding.
- [06:38]
Stacy Brown Randall
But, you know, they've been around forever. And I just like, it's like asking the question, if referrals are so amazing and so awesome, why do the tactics stink? That we are then taught about how to go about generating them? And so for me, it was just like, I want referrals too, just as much as the next person, but I don't want to feel awkward and uncomfortable and be like, I'm off. Feel like I'm off brand by trying to generate them. So for me, it was like, there's got to be a better way, there's got to be a different way. And it really kind of took me on a journey of figuring out how to generate referrals, which we call naturally, which doesn't mean no work. I do want to say that, but it does mean, like, you don't have to manipulate, you don't have to incentivize, you don't have to ask, but you have to focus on relationships and you got to have the right strategies in place that will actually not just have great relationships, but great referring relationships as well. And so I just was like, I got to figure this out differently. And that's what I did. And then my clients were like, hey, how are you getting all these referrals? I'm like, oh, I don't know, let me see. And then I had to figure out, oh, that look, there's a process, there's a system. And then eventually, you know, I've been doing this 10 years now, so eventually it was like, oh, look, there's science behind it. And we build it out a little bit differently. But, you know, it's, it's just, it's the thing for the someone to understand is like, hey, you may have been told getting referrals is going to feel awful but amazing when you get them. But it's going to feel awful trying to get them. We're like, no, we think it should feel amazing trying to get them. And then when you get them as.
- [08:04]
Luann Nigara
Well, so, and so that's interesting because, you know, it is one of the long held tenants of salesmanship. And everything is, you know, just ask every single client, do you have any friends that are like you? Like, you know, and, and it's so funny because I've said on the show a dozen times over, I started reading books on sales and salesmanship when I was 10 years old. And it's crazy, but literally true. That is one thing that I just never did. I was like, this is weird. Like, this is. You're right. It just feels weird. Hey, we had such a great experience and you love your window treatments. And I'm so happy. Could you give me a list of like five people that are like you that want beautiful window treatments? And it's like, no, right? And it's so funny. You know, it's also so funny. Stacey is. I can remember when, like, our kids were college age and there's always one of our kids, each of our kids, as they hit college aides, at least one of their friends became a Cutco salesperson. Right? So Cutco knives, right? Which by the way, is a great place to cut your teeth on selling. Okay, hardcore, right? But literally part of the Cutco thing, and I don't know if it still is, but each one of those friends at one point would say, Mrs. Nygara, would you write down three of your friends or family that also might like to have beautiful knives?
- [09:31]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yes.
- [09:32]
Luann Nigara
I'm like, I can't torture my friends and family with this phone call.
- [09:36]
Stacy Brown Randall
Well, and that's usually how we feel. Like the crazy thing about referrals is like when people, people are like teaching you to ask, I think what's never been paid attention to before is, well, what's that feel like on the receiving end? Like what I think when we know, right? Because our gut, we're like, oh, this is awkward for me. It's got to be awkward for them with me asking them. But the strategies never took that into account. It was like, push through, just be uncomfortable, Lou.
- [10:00]
Luann Nigara
Just push through. Right?
- [10:01]
Stacy Brown Randall
And you're like, but no, I don't want to have to be that uncomfortable to have something happen. And you know, it's, it's just one of those things. It's, it's that saying that's like, just because something has been like the, the long standing advice forever and ever in a day doesn't mean it's necessarily the best advice.
- [10:18]
Luann Nigara
Yeah. And so you talk about re doing referrals, generating naturally. And I love that you put the caveat. Natural doesn't mean no work. Natural doesn't mean whatever happens happens. Que Sarah, if I'm successful or if I'm not. Right. So what is, what does that mean? Generate them naturally then?
- [10:39]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yeah. So the big thing about the old school strategy is like asking or compensating or being gimmicky or networking all the time. The goal of those is to actually artificially create or manufacture something that doesn't exist naturally. So when you ask someone, hey, who do you know who would like a set of Cutco knives? I'm not in a moment where I'm thinking of someone who wants Cutco knives. I'm having to force it, right? So I'm having to artificially, like think about like, so I'm artificially creating it. I'm manufacturing something to answer your question. And usually people don't, they just say, oh, I don't know, I'll think about it. But those strategies, they're focused on you having the other person basically do work for you, Right. It's like you're putting, you're giving them homework. And so you are looking at it from that perspective of manufacturing something or artificially creating something that truly, when we get a referral, the reason why it's so exciting to get a referral, that piece which Is the desire of that prospect to actually want to have a conversation with you. It can't be manufactured. It cannot be artificially created. The prospect has to know they have a need and then that's why they're looking for that recommendation or that referral to someone else or that's coming up in conversation. And so when we say naturally, what we mean is we're just removing the forced that artificially created that manufactured piece of generating referrals and we're just replacing it with something that a will feel more natural to do and will feel more natural on your receiver's end. The person who's going to refer you by focusing on relationships, right. And then paying attention to the what you're doing, what you're saying, when you're doing it, what's the cadence that you're doing it. And like, I mean, I do say this a lot, but I have to say this as well is like, you know, it's, it's focused on that relationship of how you want to be treated. Right? And like doing that to the people that you hope will refer you with a referral mentality. And we're using the right language and stuff. But I mean, Lou, sometimes I'm just like, all day long I'm just telling people, reminding people to be a good person. And most of that is it comes right down to the how do you want to be treated? Do you want to be asked all the time? No. So let's do something different.
- [12:39]
Luann Nigara
Right, Right, right, right. Well, and it's true because in that example, when the kids over the years have done that, I literally am like, well, I'll put my mom, I'll throw my mom under the bus and I'll put her name on it and then I'll put my best friend's name on there. But I'm going to call them and go, you're going to get a call from this 20 year old kid trying to sell you knives, right? As opposed to when you are, you know, when, when you are actually happy with somebody's services and you like, I would still, I love my Cutco knives. I still have. The Darn Things are 30 years old, right? Like 20 years old. I do love them, but it's more like if I were at a friend's house and she's like, darn it with this knife. I'd be like, oh my goodness, you have to get a cuckoo knife. Right? So that's. I understand you're saying that's what we want to go for, but you also teach Us how to be the person. Top of mind. So that. Because I also know, right? Window works. I've run into people at the shop, right? Oh my God, I haven't seen you in 10 years. How are you? How's your kids, blah, blah, blah, blah. What's new? Oh, well, we downsize. We moved into a townhouse three years ago and I'm like, wait a second, I didn't do those window treatments. Like, here we are, we're all lovey dovey in the, you know, the proto style. And I'm like, you know, and so it's like that, it's like it happens. Good customers don't remember you or remember to call on you or remember to refer you because they're just busy and they just like, oh, you know, you know, we were walking by the mall and there was a blind shop, so we went in. Right, right. So. So that's what you're doing. Right. So talk to us a little bit about that, how you're trying to help us create that relationship and that meaning so that we are referable.
- [14:26]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yeah. And I think it comes down to you having a process, right? A process and a strategy. And we teach this from like what we call the referral ecosystem. A lot of people teach referrals, like, hey, you need them. Here's a strategy or a tactic, here's what you say in this moment and off you go. And hopefully you get some referrals. We look at it as, there's actually a number of places where referrals can be hiding in your business if you're attuned to it and sometimes have the right strategies or know what to do in that certain situation. And so we teach it from some things are specific person. Like they're person specific. Like, do you have people referring you now and do you have people that you would love to refer you? Like, not everybody, you know, not all your clients, but like identifying specific people that can refer you. So this is what we call the existing referral sources, the people who have referred you and then the potential referral sources, the people that you want to ultimately refer you. And that's strategy is to get referrals from specific people. But the next piece in the ecosystem is actually our client experience and making sure that is referable. Right. You actually have to build a client experience with referability in mind. And that isn't what a lot of people think in terms of like, I've got to be perfect because if that's the case, we're all screwed. Like, let's be Honest.
- [15:39]
Luann Nigara
Right.
- [15:39]
Stacy Brown Randall
Because nothing's going to go according to plan. Like, every time I work with an interior designer, I'm like, how many times does something go on backorder that you didn't know in advance? And now you've got to communicate that to a client that's not you being imperfect. That is, like, it happening to you and your client. Right? So, like, I'm not looking for perfection, but most people think if I do a great job and I have a great work, right? We call it like the work touch points. If I do great work touch points, I'm going to get referrals. Well, if that were the case, you wouldn't even have me on the podcast right now, because we'd all be drowning in referrals and nobody would need me. The truth is, when we're building a client experience that is focused on referability, it is the work you do, right? It is communication and managing expectations. Right? And then, of course, delivering an excellent product and all the. All the things you're going to do. But it's also making sure you're paying attention to the relationship that you are building during that client experience. And I don't mean you got to go have coffee or beer, right, with all your clients, like, once a quarter for this to work. I mean, infusing things in the moment that make you feel different than the average person, that they would expect that they're hiring. And so we map out what the work is you're doing, and then we want to weave in certain relationship touch points as well. But this goes through the three stages of a client experience. So what you're talking about so many years later, you're like, I did not do the blinds in your downhouse. In your downsized downhouse, right? That is. We know the new stage. Everybody knows the new stage. We know you're new, right? And then we actually move into active, where we're doing the work. And if the work ends, which it does for most people, right, in this industry, when the work ends, they move into alumni.
- [17:13]
Luann Nigara
Yeah.
- [17:14]
Stacy Brown Randall
Well, do you have a strategy in place for how you're continuing to nurture your alumni clients so that you can actually stay top of mind to generate referrals in a way that'll work but won't break the bank? Because not all alumni clients are going to refer. But most people just. They forget. They forget about their clients from the past. Like, I just did it the other day. I did an outreach to a number of people who were in my group coaching program last year, and some renew and some don't. And for those that didn't renew, I. It was in the first quarter and I was like, hey, I'm just reaching out. How's it going? Do you need me? Like, they're not paying me anymore, but like, this is me staying in front of my clients. A, because I care, B, because I get like ongoing testimonials, let's be honest. And C, because if they have a question, I'd rather just answer it for them than them sit in confusion. And so it's our ability to think through what that looks like that I feel business owners just look for the shortcut. They just look for the easy button. And sometimes these things aren't thought through. If they become a process that is sometimes happening in the background, they're more likely to actually happen.
- [18:13]
Luann Nigara
So that is an interesting thing that I'm. What I'm visualizing here is as interior designers, you know, if you're a well run shop, you have the whole journey mapped out. You have what you're going to do in the design phase and the discovery phase of the design phase, the, you know, procurement phase and the project management phase and the installation phase and all of that. Right?
- [18:34]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yep.
- [18:35]
Luann Nigara
But what you're saying is to add on to those existing things. What are you doing? That is, I guess truthfully just saying, setting yourself apart, making yourself memorable. These are the things that I'm hearing as you're talking because you're not saying, come in at this phase and say, hi, do you know anybody else that wants a kitchen?
- [18:58]
Stacy Brown Randall
Right. No, don't.
- [18:58]
Luann Nigara
Right.
- [18:59]
Stacy Brown Randall
So yeah, it's interesting. Okay, so let's use Denise. So she is a good friend of yours? She's a client in my brb, my building a referral business coaching program right now. And we just did this for her. Well, actually I shouldn't say just because it's been a little while, but one of the first things she looked at was her client experience and she showed it to me and it was the typical interior designer experience. And they're fabulous because they're like process oriented. Right. Like you said, it's from the consultation all the way down to taking pictures after we've done the install. Right. And I'm like, great. Now we need to infuse the pieces that are going to actually make them think about referring you. And we need to infuse the relationship piece. That doesn't mean that she didn't have relationships and have like great conversations with their clients. But we want to look for moments. So we look at is the work you do is great, that makes you referable. But now we want to look for referral moments throughout that process where you can just, hey, when you say this during that stage or during that outreach of a touchpoint, why don't you also add in this or, hey, let's add in something different here. That's a little bit more of a wow factor that they don't see coming. And so we took the structure, and I see this with almost all my interior designers. They all have the same kind of structure to how the process goes, because it's, it is the design process. Right, right. And we look at that and we say, okay, now let's just infuse into the relationship and that will give us moments to plant referral seeds, use different language to impact them in a different way. And that is what allows you to occupy more space in their mind, which then is what's going to allow them to think about referring you when it comes up. Not just in the middle of their kitchen renovation, but, you know, month or years after their kitchen renovation and someone says something and they're like, oh, Denise, all the way. Here you go. You'd be stupid to use somebody else. Right? Like, that's what we're looking for. And that takes intentionality and a plan.
- [20:47]
Luann Nigara
And so what are some of those, what are some of the typical things? Like, I know you've worked with a lot of interior designers one on one and in your programs, like my, like my friend Denise. Right. So what are some of the things that is. What's an example of something that you know either maybe Denise infused. I know we're going to talk about Janelle later too, because you've worked with Janelle as well. So what are some of those things? Just so that listeners can get an idea.
- [21:12]
Stacy Brown Randall
I should have done my homework and I should have gotten the episode that you and Janelle did like forever ago when she was talking about. Okay, good. Forever ago when she was working with me, because I'm pretty sure she talked about this example and it's the exact same one I told Denise to do. And it's not a interior design specific example. It's a must have best practice example. And I just tell people to modify it to fit their industry. So, you know, I've got an architect out in San Francisco. I'm like, this will be in your client experience now. So we look for things that are going to have a wow impact, but we're not looking to spend a ton of money or something that's going to Take a lot of logistical lift. Right. Because none of us have time for that.
- [21:49]
Luann Nigara
Right.
- [21:50]
Stacy Brown Randall
One of the things that people will sometimes think about doing when they bring on a new client. So we're in the new client phase. One of the things they'll think about doing with the new client is to send them a thank you note. Right. For like being like, thanks so much for becoming a client. There's not. It's good. A lot of people don't think about doing it, don't do it.
- [22:06]
Luann Nigara
Right.
- [22:07]
Stacy Brown Randall
So doing it is certainly better than not doing it. But what we teach is that you have to understand what's going through the mind of your client in each of the stages as they move from new to active to alumni. And in the new stage, even though there is this mix of great excitement to work with you, there's always an underlying moment of buyer's remorse of like, oh, did I pick the right person? Oh, will this go well? Oh, do I really want this? Even if they, like, push those feelings down, like, it's always there. So I tell them we want, like, not just a thank you card, we want a welcome to the Journey card. Right. So it's a, it's a, it's a still a handwritten thank you note, but we're just switching it just slightly to meet them where they are. And it's. When you meet people where they are or you do things they don't see coming, that is when you, like, click into that, oh, I love her. Like she or I love him. He's fabulous. Right? And so in that Journey card, like, call out the buyer's remorse. I mean, don't call it that, don't use those words, but just be like, you know, and like, when people join my program, I'm like, look, we're going to build a referable business. It's going to stretch you, it's going to challenge you. You've got work to do. But I am your copilot and I am ready and able. So let's do this. Right. Like, it's infusing that piece of she gets it, he gets it. Right. And so it's. If you're doing a thank you card, just use a little bit slightly different language. If you're not, please add that to your client experience. Now, you can't just do like this welcome to the Journey card and stop.
- [23:30]
Luann Nigara
It doesn't get you much cred for the last next year and a half of the project. Yeah.
- [23:35]
Stacy Brown Randall
We always say one little thing is not going to unleash a River, it's.
- [23:38]
Luann Nigara
Like going to the gym one time. That's it. I'm good. I'll see you next year.
- [23:42]
Stacy Brown Randall
I mean, look at those biceps, baby. Right? Like, yeah, so. And that's.
- [23:46]
Luann Nigara
It's.
- [23:47]
Stacy Brown Randall
Everything builds on itself. What I'm hoping my clients will do when they work with me is think about what they're building. The processes, the strategies, the tactics. Right. Think about those, though, as being built into an experience that they are delivering on for their people, whether those are their referral sources, delivering a referral source experience or a client experience that is focused on referability. And, like, really paying attention to everything you do builds on the thing that came before. It's how when you have people referring you and it's years later and people are like, how do they even remember you? You're like, because I'm not letting them forget me.
- [24:23]
Luann Nigara
Right, right.
- [24:24]
Stacy Brown Randall
Like. Like, I'm still infusing, you know, and that will change over time. Of course. That makes sense. Some people will refer for a short amount of time, some people refer for a long amount of time, and you don't know when they start. But I do know if you nurture them, you got a better chance of keeping the referrals coming.
- [24:37]
Luann Nigara
Yeah. Well, it's interesting because as you described that difference between a thank you card for, you know, engaging with me and welcome to the journey card, like, I literally just signed yesterday for a pretty significant decision on my hand, my part, and I feel a thousand percent. I'm like, I, I, I waited too long to make this decision. I hired an integrator. Right. So, and I'm just gonna say, like, Casey Gromer was on the show about a month ago, and that's who I just hired, folks. I'm like, that's it. I'll have some of that. Right? So I actually feel 100%, and I have no remorse. And I actually cannot wait. However, I know that I've been in that situation where you are, like, not where I am now, but, like, I can picture if I were a little bit like, you know what it is? Let me just be very clear. I am so far past the point that I need her that I can't even wonder if I did the right thing. Like, you know what I mean? This is like, your house is falling down around you folks, and, you know, you need an interior designer. That's where I am right now. I definitely need an interior designer. Right. But I know if I had come to it, even when I interviewed her two months ago, I would have been just what you said if I got a thank you card, I would have been like, well, that's very nice. This better freaking work. Like, you know, like, okay, thanks for the thank you card, but let's see the, like, the stuff, right? So if I. And I just am saying really relating, if anytime you bought a major purchase and you have felt like an interior design is a major purchase. And so, yeah, so. So for that card to, like you said, acknowledge it and just be like, hey, we're gonna do this together. I'm super excited to do your house, and we're in the beginning of this journey together. Thank you for getting on with me. Like. Like, that is because I. I. Bro, I breathed when you said that. I was like, oh, yeah, okay. Like, this is crazy. I just gave her $50,000 for, like, an interior design project. But it's gonna be fine, right?
- [26:52]
Stacy Brown Randall
It's gonna be good. Yeah. I think we forget what our clients are feeling as they move through the stages of working with us, right? I mean, and so I think it's important, like, for me, right? I'll have people come into my program, and they're like, I know you get people who double, triple, or quadruple their referrals, and they do it in 90 days. And they're like, give me some of that. And I'm like, that is not a guarantee.
- [27:14]
Luann Nigara
Right, right, right.
- [27:15]
Stacy Brown Randall
There are some things in place, right? And some hard work put in to get somebody there. And some do it. And some, you know, triple or quadruple their referrals. We need nine months, right? Like, we'll get you there, but it may not happen in 90 days. And acknowledging that and the things and the perceptions that we have, because let's be honest, right? And I actually learned this hard lesson that I now infuse in other people's businesses with the very first interior designer I ever worked with. And it was. It's a funny situation, but, like, I was like, yes, I'm gonna do. We were adding on to our house, and I was like, I don't know how to pick out colors. I mean, I don't know how this works. I don't know. Like, I came in, and the house was kind of done.
- [27:53]
Luann Nigara
Right?
- [27:53]
Stacy Brown Randall
I don't know how to do carpets and all the things. Right. And window treatments and all the things. And she was like. She came in, she made me feel amazing. I loved it. It was. Everything about her was awesome. She's incredible. And then crickets. And I was like, okay, right? And so then I do what every human does. I started to make assumptions on what it actually looks like to do her job as the interior designer. And I was like, I mean, it's some paint and some carpet, right?
- [28:18]
Luann Nigara
How hard could it be? How hard is this?
- [28:21]
Stacy Brown Randall
Why haven't I heard from her in two weeks? And, you know, so my husband, who is, like, obnoxiously calm and usually right, and is like, the one who's like, always like, why don't you just be normal for a second, Stacy? But he was like. He was like, why don't you just reach out to her and, like.
- [28:35]
Luann Nigara
And find out where she is.
- [28:37]
Stacy Brown Randall
Right. And, like, it's a creative process. Like, it does it. Like, you know me. I'm like, let's do it. Check off the boxes. Let's get going. And it's true, because what I got from her was amazing and magnificent. And I'm glad. If I was rushing her, I'm glad she wasn't, like, A, admitting it or B, like, ignored me, because what I got was exactly what I wanted. I mean, this is the lady that talked me into putting black carpet in my master bedroom. And I know, and every time I walked in there, I was like, this is heaven. Like, I know most people, and there's. I don't know, probably half your listeners are like, that's not okay. This was also, like, 2010. I don't know if I would do it today. Right. But the reality of it is, is that it's that ability to kind of build that relationship with your client as you go and anticipating their needs that's the easier part of being referable. There's still those moments we want to infuse and opportunities to be able to plant referral seeds and things like that. But it's just reminding yourself, like, what is it like to sign on the dotted line that they're now going to pay you 25,000 or $50,000 to do your design fee.
- [29:38]
Luann Nigara
Yes.
- [29:38]
Stacy Brown Randall
Then they're also going to buy the stuff. Buy the stuff and then hire the contractor if they're doing, like, a kitchen. Like, it's all the things and it doesn't matter. Luxury or not. Like, every human has that momentary thought. Unless, like you said, you're so far past point, you just, like, save me.
- [29:55]
Luann Nigara
That's right. You're just hanging by the thread.
- [30:00]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yes.
- [30:01]
Luann Nigara
However, I will get to that point like you and where you, you know, like, if. If the experience doesn't start to match up, I will get to that point where I start to question. And so to your point, you're looking for the steps all through the process, not just that first one. So I don't need it now. If I get it tomorrow, who knows? I don't know. Doesn't matter. I don't actually need it now. But there might be a moment in three or four weeks where. How about like? Like, to your point, when somebody works with you, you're like, this is simple but not easy. Like, it makes sense. I have the science, I have the process to help you grow your business through referrals, but it doesn't mean you're going to sit back and do nothing. And so just like interior design and just like what I'm expecting with the integrator, there's going to be the point where it's hard. And at that moment is when you probably need to start to do a touch point again, right?
- [30:56]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yeah. So actually, one of the things we teach that I love people to put into place with their client, their referable client experience, is what we call the expectation map. It is the here's what you can expect by working with me. But we do it as a visual. Now, you don't have to do it as a visual, but it's so much prettier, let's be honest. And I don't know any of my interior designers have never made it a visual. But it could be like, hey, here's what you can expect. Bullet points, right? Or it can be, hey, like, hey. Or think Candy Land, right? Game. Like a game board, right? Like, here's the experience. Because if you set that in the beginning, even when they're in the buyer's journey as a prospect, hey, here's what it's like if we move forward. And then you do it again in the new stage. Now you've created language. So when that couch that they're dying to have in before their Christmas meal is now on backorder, you can go back to that. That expectation map and be like, do you remember when we talked about this happening and it's not fun and I hate it and you hate it. We all hate it. But we're at. We're beholden to the, you know, the ship chips coming in from wherever the furniture's coming in from. I don't know.
- [31:56]
Luann Nigara
Right?
- [31:57]
Stacy Brown Randall
Like, then you have something that you can bring him back to. Like, here's where you are. Here's where you are in your expectation map. Like, here's the place that we are, remember? And it's an easier way to basically, like, stop being a pain in my butt client. Love you. Because I told you this was gonna happen, and guess what? It happened. And, like, not that you think your clients are pains in the butts, of course we don't. But the reality of it is, is that we forget almost everything we're told. Let's be honest. Right? So we are told in the beginning there can be back orders, but we don't remember that.
- [32:28]
Luann Nigara
Right.
- [32:29]
Stacy Brown Randall
Until now. We're faced with the emotional reminder that I'm now having a backorder. My couch won't be here for Christmas dinner. Right. So there's these things that we can put into place that allow the person to be like, got it, got it. And kind of allows the client to be like, I know my place.
- [32:42]
Luann Nigara
Yeah.
- [32:43]
Stacy Brown Randall
So to speak, from that perspective.
- [32:45]
Luann Nigara
So that is. You know, what I have to tell you, Stacy, is I don't think. It's not official, and I don't have any actual factual data to support it, but I can tell you anecdotally. Is that a word? Anecdotally. Right. I think I said it properly. I remember when Janelle Fotopoulos was on the podcast and she talked about how she had heard about you on the show and then she went and hired you and worked with you. Right. And the significant thing that she shared on that show was exactly to what you just said. She was talking about how we all know in the interior design, it's the middle part when the house is ripped apart and nothing seems like it's coming in. And this is the longest, hardest time in the design process. And it's also the period of time that the client is writing the most amount of checks, typically, and has the least amount to show for it. And it's also the period of time that coincidentally, as well, that it's the least amount of time that the designer needs to be in contact with the client, that it's like the vortex of the three worst things. Their house is in a shambles. They're writing checks every week, and they don't really need to. You don't really need to talk to them. And so previously, designers would be in their own world, doing their own thing, working on the design phase for another project. Right. And just being like, here, send us this bill. Send us this money. Send us this site. Yeah, your place is a mess. And she talked about how you counseled her to not only set them up for that process and say, this is the part that's going to hurt. This is the part that's not going to feel fun. And here's the three reasons why. Right. We're not going to have as much communication. You're going to write checks like they're water and your house is going to feel yucky. And she said then to your point, when they get cranky during that period, you can say, we talked about this. You know, I described this to you. And I want to say if I'm going back an interview like six years ago, I feel like she also was. And at that point, if it is their kitchen that we're ripping open, we're sending them gift certificates to go eat at restaurants at this point. And the thing that I want to say is that was the first time that anybody mentioned that the out loud of that, that phase was hard and difficult for the client. And to my recollection, it was the first time anybody mentioned the remedy for it. And when I tell you, Stacy, do you know how many designers have that as part of their process now? And I'm telling you that they've. I, you and I can't take credit for all of it. Okay. But I know, yes, we're going to a tiny bit. Right. But I know that a lot of designers heard Janelle tell what she learned from you. And then over the next year to two years, it started to be. And when I get to this point in the process and I would always think back to how you talked about it, how she talked about you telling her. And now it's like, of course we tell our clients that this is the crappy part of the. Like you, you have to be. Exactly. But it, because it's like, I like what I'm saying is it's, I think because I've been around since seven years doing this and because that was like a very significant moment and I had tons of people reach out to me and say, wow, that's amazing idea that you know, Janelle and State, you know, Stacy, did you know, blah, blah, blah, that it's become almost, how could you not do that? That nobody even remembers that you are the germ of it for the industry, you know, And I'm not saying, like I just one more thing. I'm not saying that there isn't a designer out there that's been in business for 15 or 20 years and isn't sitting there listening and saying, I've always done that. Great. I'm glad because you're smarter than the rest of us. But I know there is a generation of designers over the last seven years that are doing it because you taught it to Janelle and Janelle taught it to us.
- [36:49]
Stacy Brown Randall
You know, it's so interesting, because in retrospect, it's, like, so simple. Like, why wouldn't we tell you there's going to be things that are going to happen that are out of all of our control? Like, why wouldn't we acknowledge that we, like. But, you know, it's that idea. Like, we want everything to be fancy and, like, you know, and also, it's.
- [37:05]
Luann Nigara
Also human nature to think that this time it isn't going to be that difficult. Like, oh, this project, it won't be that hard. The kitchen will only be unusable for two weeks instead of two months. Right.
- [37:21]
Stacy Brown Randall
I just. I don't think our interior designers should ever behave like our contractors. Right, Right. Six months, don't worry. A year later, it'll be done.
- [37:28]
Luann Nigara
Like the money picture. When's it gonna be done? Two weeks. We're.
- [37:33]
Stacy Brown Randall
We're better than that, you know, And I think that and what I teach people. And it's funny because when Denise came into my coaching program, referable client experience is one of the trainings she went through, and we just made hers better. I was like, oh, yeah, let me put my eyeballs on it. Let's do it up. And I remember making her expectation map. And sometimes I get the question of, does it have to be a map? Like, does it have to? And I'm like, it should. It does not have to be. I don't want that to keep you from doing it. Right. The logistics of it keep you from doing it. But here's what. Having something actually in writing, and I don't mean your contract, I mean, like, a pretty visual that shows the process. Right. And we have a ton of examples in the program. But, like, I want it to be that. Because for some of us, it is way easier to just be like, hey, I'm attaching our expectation map to this email in response to your, you know, your frustration. I just want you to be able to see it again. I'm sure you don't have it at your fingertips. Just want you to be able to see it again of where we are in this process. Remember we talked about this because the visual helps. And really, at that point, because, let's be honest, most people would say, remember we talked about this? And normal people would be like, yes, I don't like it. But I remember we talked about it some.
- [38:39]
Luann Nigara
No, we didn't. Like, No, I don't remember it. That. You never said that.
- [38:42]
Stacy Brown Randall
You did not tell me that. Right. But I did show you this. Pretty. That's right. And you can't deny that. Right. Like, that's what I told Denise. I'm like, in the packet. It goes in the packet and they keep it forever.
- [38:56]
Luann Nigara
No, it's the truth. Because listen, we all day long, all of us get that line. No, you didn't, you didn't tell me that. That's not what happened. I'm like, okay, okay. All right. We didn't say it. You know, we, we just say the same thing every sales appointment, but we didn't say it this time. Great. Love it. Well, and it's funny too, because I know when I train the salespeople here at Window Works and when I am doing trainings for salespeople in other companies as well, I recommend that the things that you have learned that are the difficult parts in the client journey that you know from experience, these are the touch points that people push back on that they say, this hurts and this is painful. And you didn't tell me and I didn't know. I always recommend, and this is my own personal practice, was I use the same language to describe those highlighted parts. Right. So that, for example, Billy, my installer and I have worked together closely for 40 years. And so if there's certain things, like if I sell a room darkening shade and there's no drapery around it, he knows darn well that I have not said that this is going to be Las Vegas dark. Right. And I say this is going to make the room darker. You're going to have a halo effect of light. What does that mean? It looks like it's going to look like your window is wearing a halo. We're not at church. But it will look like it. You know what I mean? Like, and I say very memorable, specific things every time because Billy knows that when he's on the install, he can say, did she discuss whether it would have a halo effect? I don't know. She's crazy. She always talks about your shades going to church or if it would be Las Vegas dark. And to your point, you can't ignore that. Right. You're not going to, like, you're 99% of your garden variety humans are not going to point blank lie to that and to your, your visual of the map. Is that that same mechanism? Right? It's like, right. I. Maybe I don't remember you telling me, but yes, I do remember the Candyland game Shoot, right.
- [41:09]
Stacy Brown Randall
Darn it. Yeah.
- [41:10]
Luann Nigara
Or I saw it, but I didn't read it. Well, that's a good one. Love that. Okay.
- [41:14]
Stacy Brown Randall
Oh, yeah, that's. That's my favorites. The skimmers Skimmers Delight.
- [41:18]
Luann Nigara
Yes, but see, we don't have to be responsible for skimmers. Right. It's like, I'm sorry, sweetie. I'm. I'm not your mama. You know, if you signed on the dotted line and you didn't read all the documentation, that's sort of on you. You. Right. Yeah.
- [41:31]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yes.
- [41:31]
Luann Nigara
Yeah. So. So that's. So you had really. I mean, those are two designers I happen to know personally, Denise Pugh and Janelle Fotopoulos that have worked. But you've. You've worked with dozens of designers over the years.
- [41:43]
Stacy Brown Randall
Oh, yeah. Those are just some of the ones that I always like to bring up because I think they have some really memorable stories. Right. I mean, Denise is just more present. Right. Like, because she's in my coaching program right now, and she's in her second year, she just renewed. And so I get to. I get to hang with her, I get to talk to her, I get to see things, and then I get to hear about all the fabulous.
- [42:01]
Luann Nigara
I. Off to somewhere.
- [42:05]
Stacy Brown Randall
Somewhere. I know. And Janelle, though it's been years since we've worked together, she is actually a referral source of mine. She has referred designers to me as well. But she has one of my favorite stories, because there's a strategy that I teach, and it's called Referring Machines. And it is. I mean, it's. We call it internally, like with my members, we call it the slog, which is probably not a very positive way to talk about one of your trainings, but it is a. It's a process of how you take somebody that you want to refer you that's never referred you and how you cultivate a relationship with them. So they'll start referring you by making it their idea and not yours, by having to directly ask or pay or anything like that. And so she has actually one of my largest referrals received by following that process. And so for a lot of interior designers, they have architects or others like that in the industry that they want to refer clients to them. Right. They know they're going to get some referrals from their clients, and they. Right. We put strategies in place to nurture that. But when we want to make sure we're getting referrals from somebody else who probably has other interior designers that they refer to now. And now you're competing. Right. Or you feel maybe like you're competing. But Janelle's story is, like, when she went through Referring Machines, and she was like, okay, I want to cultivate. Here's the Architects, right? Here's the people I want to cultivate. And she went through that process. She emailed me. It was over a year later, and I like, have the email up on my board because it's highlighted. Like, it's one of my favorite things to just look at. And she literally emailed me and she was like, we got our largest referral to date. And I was like, yeah, she was like, we got our largest referral to date. That architect that was on my referring machine list from over a year ago finally referred us. And it was $620,000 of a referral, over a half a million dollar referral. And so I use her as an example, because when people are doing this, right, and they're putting in the work and they're generating referrals and they're trying to cultivate new people, Denise went through this too. It's like, I know there's a pot of gold at the end of your rainbow. I've seen it for 10 years now. I know there's a pot of gold at the end of your rainbow. I mean, maybe if you're not a good person, maybe not, right? But let's just assume you're a good person and you'll do the work. But, like, there is a pot of gold at the end of your rainbow. But what I cannot tell you is how long it's going to take for you to get to your pot of gold. But Janelle was relentless. Not in terms of how she followed up, but she was relentless in having a process and a system. And she followed my advice, which I really appreciate. And so she put it into practice, and she was willing to go slow to get to the promised land, that pot of gold, like, in a bigger way than she ever imagined, she was willing to make it about the architect and to. To build a relationship and not be pushing for referrals and not try to be pushing her portfolio on them and stuff like that, right? They can Google you. Don't worry, they will, right. If they have any interest. And she just worked the system. And we call it.
- [44:53]
Luann Nigara
It's.
- [44:53]
Stacy Brown Randall
We call it the slog, because you're literally working backwards because you're making it all about them and nothing about you. So it feels like you're going backwards. But for someone to decide to refer you, yes, they need to know you're a good interior designer, but they're actually going to probably assume you are. What they really need to decide is that they like you, right? And that you're somebody they can work with. And that you care about them and you've shown that repeatedly because you've made this process of cultivation about them. And she was relentless in her willingness to stick to the program and make follow the process. And then guess what she got rewarded. $620,000. Like, hello, like. And I'm sure she'll have more like that coming not only from that architect for others, but it's just so important for people to understand is like, a lot of people talk about referrals. Well, let me. I saw an email the other day, someone sent it to me and they're like, the language is literally, let me free you from inconsistent referrals.
- [45:46]
Luann Nigara
Referrals.
- [45:47]
Stacy Brown Randall
You don't need to be freed from anything. What you need is a strategy and a system to make those inconsistent referrals consistent. And you write like, denise got double digit referrals for the first time last year, right? Janelle got over a half a million dollar referral. Like, it's there, but you gotta work the system.
- [46:01]
Luann Nigara
Yeah, no, I think it's awesome. And of course, you know, I mentioned in the introduction that you have a chapter in the first Power Talk Friday Experts book. And you know, you've, you've got tips in there. I mean, there's a place to start. And you know, you also have your podcast, which you go through this every single week on some of the actual strategies and in the weeds and conversations with other people who have done it. So my thing is, is I always like to know that, you know, like, for me, my philosophy on the show is for every consultant that comes on, is there a place for somebody to get your goodness, to get your expertise that they can wherever they are in the journey, you know, And I always say we spend our time or we spend our money. So some people listening will be like, bang, here's a dollar, bills. Let me get in your program. Just teach me how to do it like you did Denise and Janelle. And other people will say, nope, I need to do it with time now instead of money. And of course, between the chapter in the book, your own book that you wrote and the podcast, and I'm sure you've got resources on your website, there are things you can do whether you are choosing to spend time or money to accelerate your referral process. And so I love that because that is kind of one of my things. It's like, like, everybody has to be able to get some of this goodness however they choose to show up for it. But before I let you go, like one or two things, like, where does a designer Kind of start with this. I know it. I know we have to pick apart our journey. I know we have to pick our part, our process and, you know, infuse the things. But is there something that you would leave us with or get us thinking about?
- [47:37]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yeah. I mean, for people who love to read, grab the book, because it's gonna break everything down for you. If you're a podcast listener, cause you're listening to this one, you probably have room for one more Roadmap to referrals Podcast. Join me every Tuesday. And we break apart all the things. You can actually hear an interview with Denise and things like that. But what I would tell for the person who is like, like they're not at the dollar bills place, right? And they're like, hey, I am in this place and I need to consume some more information. I like to think what I teach is time released learning and it takes people time to get to where they need to be to decide to take the next step. And right now you just need information and I need to shift your mindset and I need to give you some tactical, practical things you can do. And we have a resource tab on the website and when you go to that resource tab, it's going to say, have you been in business less than two years or more than two years? So you're going to pick your section and there's going to be three things, just three. One's going to be a quiz that you can take to figure out what level of referral generation you're at. One will be like, hey, let me show you exactly how to identify who your existing referral sources are or who your potentials are. And then let me show you how to calculate what your referrals could look like in a year. It's very practical, tactical things, and we do break them down by how many years you've been in business or how many referral sources you have. That's the best place to start because you're going to just consume so much information. And I know you're going to start thinking about this stuff differently and at the end of the day, whether you're a client of mine or not is actually kind of irrelevant. What I really want is that for you to be thinking about referrals differently and for you to know that they can be a foundational part of your business that you can have, have and see consistency with. But I do want you to recognize, though you may deserve those referrals, you're not owed to them. So you have to be willing to do the work to generate them.
- [49:20]
Luann Nigara
That is the money line right there. I love that, Stace. I don't know that I've heard you say that before. And that's the money line. Though you may deserve them, you know, you still have to earn them, right? You know? Yeah, yeah. You're not owed. That's. That's awesome that, that. You know, it's funny because every once in a while in a conversation, somebody hits me with a line like that and, you know, it's like I just have to keep rolling it around in my brain because that is the bottom line of this everything in life, right? Like, everybody deserves all the goodness, all the riches, but no one's owed it. And so we have to show up and we have to do our part and, you know, like you said, be a good human, right?
- [50:00]
Stacy Brown Randall
For the people at the exciting Windows Conference that had me sign their book, that's actually what I signed in their book. And someone was like, oh, you're actually writing something to us. And I'm like, like, well, it's. It's kind of the thing. Like, it's kind of the main thing. I believe you deserve referrals, but you aren't owed them, so let's get to work. But, yeah, but I think it's a fundamental piece that anybody needs to accept in their business, regardless of what your referral generation strategies and stuff will look like down the road.
- [50:23]
Luann Nigara
Because you know what? I love about that too. I didn't realize it was your signature line. That's good. What I.
- [50:29]
Stacy Brown Randall
It has been 10 years and like six years since I've been with you.
- [50:32]
Luann Nigara
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good game, girl. Good game. But the thing about that is, is what's powerful about that sentence, that statement is it puts the power back in your hands too. You're not walking around waiting for the universe to drop the referrals on you. It's that transition in your mindset that you are really advocating that this is a thing that you can do. It's a process you can do. Just like you can design a room, you can design a business that generates referrals, girls. So, so awesome.
- [51:07]
Stacy Brown Randall
That's a good money line too, right there. Might need to be borrowing that.
- [51:12]
Luann Nigara
Oh, my goodness. You're a love. I just think your. Your energy is amazing. The way you show up and support interior design industry is fantastic. I know that, you know, Denise, like, work, you know, literally like every other week. And then Stacy this and Stacy told me that, and you know, and I'm like, go, girl.
- [51:31]
Stacy Brown Randall
I gotta Tell you this quick Denise story. She was literally. So we do, for all the members that are my coaching program, they actually come together for two days at the end of the year. We do an in person retreat and it's included as a free bonus within their membership and our coaching program. And Denise was there and somebody asked her a question and she's so classic Denise. Right? Like, so someone says, like, well, what was it worth it? Like, she was talking about a process she had gone through within the program and it was a lot of work. And somebody said, well, was it worth it? And she does this, she gets goes. And I'm thinking to myself, where the heck is she going with this? And she goes, well, I mean, everything Stacy tells you to do is worth it. And I was like, oh, Jesus, why weren't we recording that? You know what I mean?
- [52:12]
Luann Nigara
That is so classic.
- [52:13]
Stacy Brown Randall
She is awesome.
- [52:14]
Luann Nigara
Oh my God. She is. She's a love.
- [52:17]
Stacy Brown Randall
Yes. You know what she is? She's somebody who, like, she will invest in her business when she knows it's something she wants to learn, and then.
- [52:23]
Luann Nigara
She will put action. I know, I know.
- [52:26]
Stacy Brown Randall
I mean, and that is like your dream clients. You're like, yes, do the work.
- [52:30]
Luann Nigara
It's the truth. Because, you know, we both meet lots of people that invest in all kinds of things and they just go through the process and then, you know, they either intellectually understand that they're not doing the work and they just let it go. But then, you know, I've had conversations with people, they're like, oh, that didn't work. And I'm like, well, did you do it? Well, I mean, you know, it, you know, I mean, not yet.
- [52:53]
Stacy Brown Randall
Kind of, sort of.
- [52:55]
Luann Nigara
You're right.
- [52:55]
Stacy Brown Randall
I mean, I've been thinking about it for so long. It should have just manifested itself.
- [52:59]
Luann Nigara
Yeah. Like, you know, it just happened.
- [53:02]
Stacy Brown Randall
Just combusted. Right. I didn't think it about it.
- [53:04]
Luann Nigara
Right. But both of those women, Janelle and Denise, they do the work. So that's awesome. All righty, my friend. Thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate you so much, Stacy.
- [53:15]
Stacy Brown Randall
Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you.
- [53:17]
Luann Nigara
Thanks so much for joining me on this podcast Takeover on the Roadmap to Referrals podcast. I hope you'll visit my podcast as well a well designed business and connect with me@luannigara.com or at luannaigarra or on Instagram and LinkedIn. All of the links that we mentioned in this episode can be found in the video or on the show notes for this episode. Now here's Stacy.
- [53:41]
Stacy Brown Randall
I hope you enjoyed this episode, and don't forget to show Luann some love by checking out her podcast and more information on all of her businesses on the Show Notes page for this episode@stacybrownrandall.com 371 we're back with another great episode next week, created with you and your needs in mind. Until then, you know what to do, my friend. Take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now.
- [54:17]
Luann Nigara
Sam.