B (6:43)

Well, thank you, Stacey. I'm so excited to be here with you today. Yeah. So my name is Sally Reddy. I am a tax controversy attorney. And this year I launched my solo practice, Law Office of Sally Ready. Very original title, but it's been a long time in coming. What was really interesting in going through this process because I've been with a firm for many years, with different firms for many years. I've been practicing since 2014 here in California. And what I've realized is when I started to look at my branding, I actually did this branding 10 years ago. Like, that's how long this dream of having my own firm has been on the back burner. So I'm really excited to have been able to launch this year. So a little bit about what I do. Like I said, I'm a tax controversy attorney. I represent businesses and individuals who are dealing with tax issues. So whether it's an audit or collections. And I work federal irs, a lot of IRS cases, and then also state cases as well, especially in California. And I do income tax, sales tax, employment tax. So a lot of. A lot of different agencies.

A (7:50)

Yeah. I think that it's so awesome that you finally went out on your own and the fact that you, like looked back and you're like, whoa, I've actually been planning this, dreaming about this, thinking about this, wanting to do this for 10 years. And you finally took that leap. I think there's a lot of attorneys I know there's a lot of attorneys that I work with that are in that same kind of place. Like usually I find not always, but most of the time attorneys come out of law school. And then you land at a firm, whether it's like a big firm or you land at a regional size firm or whatever. And then there are some that are just like, I'm supposed to have my own firm someday. And some don't ever let go of that dream. And you are one of those, which is amazing. I know a lot of the attorneys I work with are typically solopreneurs or smaller teams, like less than 10 people on the team total. And I think that really exciting that you're like, I'm going to take the leap. I'm going to do this. It's going to be amazing. I'm sure there's a lot you're learning. So I have the privilege of having like a front row seat to this because we just wrapped up working together and you were like, I'm launching the firm. Like, as that wrapping up was happening. And then of course we're having this conversation, so I kind of feel like I get this front row seat to, like, what has been happening and what's going on. And, like, I also know I've started two businesses. I kind of know what the first beginning is. And at the time of this recording, you're just a few weeks into the new firm. So. Okay, I didn't necessarily prepare you for this question, but they don't teach you how to be a business owner in law school. That's not a class that I. That I'm aware of that they teach. So what's been, like, the biggest, like, oh, I. Yeah, that is something I'm gonna have to do. And it's like. It's like, not that it's hard, but, like, it's one thing that just was, like, surprising for you, being like, you're a couple of weeks and being a business owner. What does that look like?

B (9:36)

Yeah. So I think, well, they definitely don't teach you the business of law in law school. However, I can't. I actually really love it. I think I love this more than practicing law. That is awesome. I do love. I do love tax law, too, but. But I. I really am enjoying, like, everything. And I think I mentioned to you earlier, I feel like I have 10,000 things to do, and I can't figure out which is most important to do first. But. But they're all fun. 10,000 and things to do. I think the thing that really surprised me the most and hit me the most is how much I miss having admin support. Like, I. I've always. And, you know, and I'm kind of a perfectionist, so it's always been kind of frustrating for me to delegate to somebody else. And at other firms where I've been at, we've always had a pretty strong admin team who they were very, very good, but never did anything exactly the way I liked. And I just thought, oh, it's gonna be so much easier when I'm on my own and I can just do things my way. But no, no, no, it's not easier. It's definitely. My first hire is going to be an administrative assistant as I possibly can.

A (10:38)

That is such a fun hire. I mean, I don't know how I'd live without Kathy, to be honest. I'm like, she's like my right arm. Like, sometimes she thinks for me, and I'm like, that is what makes her worth her weight in gold. Like, oh, you thought of something before I did it. That is huge. And you thought of it in the way that I would want you to think of it. So, yeah, it's huge. That's awesome. Okay. All right, so let's dive in a little bit to the world of referrals. Now, I know because this happens on every time I do an. An interview like this. We're going to talk about results. We're going to talk about what it looked like as you were diving into referrals and what your results look like. And we're going to talk numbers and closing ratios and all the things. But I always think it's important to kind of back up before we talk about results and talk about the idea of referrals and why they're important to your business. I think it takes on a deeper meaning for you because you're also. You were starting your own. But talk a little bit about why referrals are just so important for you.

B (11:31)

Yeah. So I think, again, it's really hard to know where to begin on the importance of referrals in my business. I think, first of all, just as a tax professional, especially doing the type of controversy work that I'm doing, I'm dealing with people who, first of all, the first question I have to ask them, they don't know me at all, is, what's your Social Security number and birth date? I need all this to be able to represent them. And I just feel like there needs to be a trust there. And I think looking back on my practice, like, I actually graduated from law school and passed the bar in 2010, but I was. My husband was active duty military, so we are moving every two years. I spent the first four years of my law career just trying to take bar exams, get admitted to bars, only to. While I'm being sworn in, my husband's getting an email for his next set of orders. So I kind of started my law career at a military, just volunteering at a military clinic, and they were running a tax prep clinic for military members. And I just. That's kind of how I fell in love with tax law. And what I realized is what kind of set me apart from other attorneys is, you know, I would. I would do the return, and then I print it out, stick it in front of my. My little clients and just go line by line and be like, okay, here's. Here's this number. Here's where we got it. Here's this number. Do you have any questions? Okay, sign here. And they just always just looked at me with just incredulity. They're like, wait, what? Nobody's ever Explained this test before. Like, what's this line that doesn't have anything on it? Like, is that, you know, oh, that's your IRA contribution deduction, which you didn't contribute, so you don't get a deduction. And they're like, oh, maybe I could do that this year. Or maybe, you know, if it's before the due date, Like. Like, I just found that the relationship with the people is what was really my niche. Like, it. Like, the tax was. I love tax, but I love people more. And I think getting back to that, when it comes to selling my services now, I mean, I'm just. When. When I can start with a relationship, it's just so much. So much better. And that's kind of where the referrals come in. I just always feel like there's. There's trust there already. And. And, you know, we already have a mutual acquaintance, so that's something to build on. We can talk about something other than your tax problem. And during our first call, which is.

A (13:49)

Which is always nice, because I'm sure the conversations they have with you, they're not like, I'm getting so much money back conversations. That's not how conversations start with you. Right. They're like, I got a problem to.

B (14:00)

Solve it, and they're scared. They're scared. I mean, I. So. So I get about, you know, maybe 20 to 30 IRS letters a day to my office. They're addressed to usually my client with me as the representative. And. And you would think. You would think that it wouldn't bother me, but I. One day, when my oldest daughter was going off to college, I did a FAFSA for her, and I had clicked the button to import my tax returns. So they send me a letter, and I get the informed delivery from the post office, and I see there's an IRS letter addressed to me. To me in my. At my home. And I panicked for a minute. I was like, wait, what? And then I stopped myself. I'm like, this is what I do for a living.

A (14:39)

And it's.

B (14:40)

But it was just. It was so funny because I think sometimes as attorneys, we forget how new the situation is to our clients and how scared they must be. And here. Here's me, who. Who gets 20 to 30 letters from IRS every day. And even. I mean, there's not. No possible thing that could have been in that letter that I couldn't handle, that I hadn't already handled hundreds of times. But. But. But when it was addressed to me, there was that little panic, and it just really. I Always. I always think of that. I always kind of keep that as a little note card whenever I'm talking to a new client. Because I have to remind myself they're. They're scared. This is very scary for them. They don't know what I know.

A (15:18)

Yeah.

B (15:19)

And they are trying to get. Get answers.

A (15:22)

They're scared. And then they show up and you're like, now I need your Social Security number and your birthday. I can imagine. Right. Having someone's like, okay, I'm going to give all this information to the Sally person. But that's because I trust Joe or I trust, you know, Sarah, who told me that I could trust Sally. So, I mean, it's very, very clear on what you do, why referrals are so important. Okay, so when you were first considering with me and joining the building a referable business program, what was your, like, number one? Nobody has just one. But what was your number one pain point that you were hoping to solve?

B (15:57)

So I think that just getting back to what you had mentioned before, we're, as attorneys, we're trained very rigorously in the law, but not so much on business and not so much on marketing. As a matter of fact, there's. The only marketing training we really get is in our professional responsibility class of how not to market. So what you're not allowed to do. So there's a lot of. I feel like there was just no intentionality behind what I was doing. I cared about people, which I think is a great first step. And I had a lot of relationships with other professionals, and that's where I was getting some referrals. But I really didn't have a plan, a focus and intention behind what I was doing. And I kind of recognized this isn't. I'm not getting traction where I need to.

A (16:41)

Right? Yeah. So it was like holding you back, right? Yeah. And I think acknowledging that I need to be more intentional when it comes to referrals. And then there's lots of things you could do from that intentionality place, but it's like, what am I going to do and how do I want to do it? And like, all those things fit in. And once you feel like you know what you're going to do, then it's a lot easier to kind of like, take that next step. I know, like when we've talked before, you have mentioned things like when you're. You're thinking about how you're going to market, it's like throwing spaghetti on the wal.

B (17:11)

Yes.

A (17:11)

And you're like, let's see what Sticks. I mean, I think we all have those moments as business owners. Right. It's just like, let's see what sticks. But like, that's a way to waste a lot of money and time. Yeah. And so I think that that's important for people to kind of recognize is like, hey, at the end of the day, like, it's about knowing that the. There's a proven process that you can follow so that you don't have to worry about the. Let's just throw some spaghetti on the wall and ultimately see what sticks. So from that perspective, okay, so why don't you share a couple of the ahas that you have had from the work that we did together?

B (17:46)

Well, kind of related to what you just said about that proven process, I. I think that is something that I've really appreciated because I think I used to always get in my head about, oh, what is, is this weird? You know, especially writing thank you notes. Like, there's certain people, I don't mind. I, I don't mind writing thank you notes. I'm happy to do it. But there are certain people who I know are going to really appreciate getting them, and then other people who are like, probably going to think it's weird. And I think that was something that I really have. I kind of like the process you have because I'm very systematic as well. But your process just kind of took the. It took that self doubt out of it. If, If I can conflate two things, I basically am like, here's my plan. I'm working this plan, and I'm not going to worry about. I'm going to trust that Stacy's not going to let me do something ridiculous, and my referral sources are going to either appreciate it or not care. But probably nobody's going to get offended getting a thank you card from me. And then I think the other thing that was kind of a big eye opener that I hadn't really thought about before was that referable client experience, because that was kind of part of the program. During that process, I realized I don't. I care about my clients, which is a great place to be. But when I looked at how I was interacting with my clients, it was all very transactional. Like, it was like, once they hired me, we were on the phone talking about your case, we were talking about your strategy, we were talking about resolutions. But there wasn't any intentionality with relationships.

A (19:21)

Right. And I think that, like, I always say that to folks. People are like, okay, so you're gonna teach me how to get referrals. Like, what's the way? And I'm like, but one way. Like, there's not one one way. Like, referrals, they exist in an ecosystem within your business, and you need to know all the places that they're potentially hanging out or where they should be hanging out, and then you're able to be able to extract them. And so I do think when people go through, you know, the referral client experience, which is one of our foundational strategies, when people go through that one, they do get to see the process of what it's like to work with them. Like, what a client must feel when it's going through the process of working with them and then having that opportunity to be like, oh, I can do a better job here. I can infuse more of the relationship side. I can fuse more of the taking care of them, the connecting with them. But it doesn't have to detract from the work that I'm doing. I can still do all my great work. But when I turn it into, like a process into an experience, which is really just a step by step, right? Then it kind of allows the client to feel differently. And I have some people who are like, I think the whole idea with referrals for them is like, where do I go get them? And I'm like, they're in so many places. Like, there is the people who already refer you, the people you want to refer you, just your clients who are already working with you. Like, how do you know you don't have a hot zone within your client experience for referrals? But if you've never identified the pattern behind it, how do you know that you couldn't be getting more referrals from that point in the client experience, from a lot of your clients when they hit that point? Like, there's just so many things I think that people don't understand. And I think some of that has to do with how referrals are taught today, right? It's like, hey, you want referrals? It's a nail. Here's your hammer. This is the script. Say this to everybody. You know, And I'm like, oh, gosh, it's so much more than that. And I think sometimes you almost can't appreciate it until you're like, you are like, you're behind the curtain. Like, you log into the online learning platform and you see all the opportunities. You're like, oh, there's a lot to learn. There's a lot to know here. So I think that's awesome. Okay, Cool. So I know people are like, okay, lovely. Thank you. Now, let's talk about results, because people love the numbers and I appreciate that. So Sally shared some of her results, obviously, with us before we hit record. So I'm going to go ahead and break them down. And then, Sally, I just kind of want you to talk about the journey of, like, landing where you are today. So when we look at Sally's results. Okay. So longtime listeners of this podcast know that I like three years. I think three years gives you a really good viewpoint if you've been in business that long and you've been obviously trying to get referrals that long. But I think three years gives you a really good Runway of like, to figure out an average. So when we look over 2022, 2023, and 2024 of Sally's referrals, she averaged about 27 referrals a year, which is great. That is nothing to be like. That's nothing to sneeze at. It's like, okay, like, it's not like it was two. Right. So we got 27 referrals a year, which is great. With about around a 25% closing ratio. Now at the time of this recording, it's early May 2025. So we're about four weeks, I mean, sorry, four months and a couple of weeks in to this new year, and already you're about to get very, very close to receiving your average number. And you've done it in almost four months, which is super, super exciting. So I'm going to let you share the number of referrals that you've received so far since the beginning of this year and about the last four months and a week or two. So I'll let you share that number because I think that's exciting, and then we'll talk about closing ratio.

B (22:55)

Yeah, so I'm, I'm at 20 referrals so far this year. So almost as good as any of the other years.

A (23:02)

And it's only four months.

B (23:04)

Yes, only four months.

A (23:05)

So, I mean, I love that, like, at this point, you're not, you're not. You're going to be, well, passing the doubling and the tripling of referrals this year, which is great, clearly. And you're already having a higher closing ratio. You're Already up over 30% is your closing ratio, which is amazing. And like, I can only imagine that's only going to get better for you as the year goes on. So you average 27 referrals in a year. Four months in. You've already gotten 20 referrals. So you will very, very quickly double or triple what is what you used to receive, which is amazing. But when you looked back on and I know you gave me results from 21 forward, but I just started with 22. But when you look back to 20, 21 through today, like, what was kind of your sense of paying attention to referrals back then versus referrals now?

B (23:53)

I think back then, I mean, I've always known referrals were a good source of business development for me. So I think I was always thinking about referrals and I, and I did listen to your podcast and read your book before hiring you, but, but it just wasn't quite the same intentionality. It was just a lot of, a lot of having lunches and coffees, which is, which is great. But, but there wasn't a lot of the follow through as well. And then, and so looking back, I just think, you know, people just know me and know I do tax and send referrals to me. I think one thing that's different about the ones I've been coming in now, like I still have, I still get referrals to things that I don't do. However, that's easy. I can just refer them out to somebody who does them. And, and there are a few that like, especially right now that I'm a solo, I'm a lot. I'm very particular about the type of client I'm gonna hire and the type of work I'm gonna do. So. But I'd still don't want to edit down my referrals. So. Because my, I think one thing before I started working with you is like, why, why don't I just close 100% of my referrals? And, and the more I worked with you, I started to understand. No, that's okay. 25 to 30% is, is fine and normal. And also thinking about what I need right now as a solo, I really just need, if I can get five clients a year, I'll be fine. If I can, if I get 10, that, that, that capacity, you know, so.

A (25:15)

Right.

B (25:16)

And, and all I need to do is get, you know, three to four times as many number of referrals as what I need and that's, that's doable.

A (25:23)

I think the expectation setting of what we actually need is so very important. Like when I talk to people about getting more referrals, sometimes I'll hear like these crazy numbers. They're like, well, do you think I could get 100 referrals in a year? And I'm like, well, first of all, I don't even know where you're starting from, so I'm never going to make that type of guarantee ever. And second, it's like, do you need. Can you take on 100 clients? And someone's like, my favorite is when someone's like, I just want, like, you know, 60, 70, 80 referrals. I'm like, awesome. So how many clients can you work with in a year? And they're like 12. And I'm like, why do you need more than 30 referrals in a year? I was like, it doesn't make any sense. So I think expectation setting of really understanding how many clients do you want? What is capacity? What is growth? Over that. Right? So if you're trying to grow something, we want more than what capacity is. But outside of that, like, why do we need so many more referrals if you have a smaller number of the clients that you can actually help, Which I think is really great in terms of being very clear on that. So, I mean, I always think that's awesome. Okay, so when you. I'm just curious as you're like, looking through, going through this work with me, starting your own firm, hitting the more referrals in four months than almost you've gotten in years previous, which is kind of amazing in that perspective, like, what are you most excited about when you look forward, like, just in terms of like, that ability to know what's possible. But like, when you think future, like, not this year, but like three years from now, and. And your law firm is now three years old, and now it's five years old, and now it's seven years old. Like, what are you most excited about?

B (27:06)

Most excited. That that's going to be hard to narrow down, I think. I think. I think the most excited, honestly, is. Is just now that I'm solo on my own, like, I don't have to worry about partners or employers. I. I can do my own thing. And. Which is very liberating. And I'm. I've kind of embraced the fact that I'm going to make a mistake here or there, like, in terms of something I'm going to try, something that maybe doesn't work out or is maybe too expensive, but. But it's just very liberating to know that, oh, that's okay. I've budgeted for that, and it's my mistake, and nobody else is paying the cost for that. So I guess I'm most excited about really being able to craft something that's Authentic to me. And then in terms of the opportunity, I think, first of all, just the confidence I have with having this process for keeping intentional about referrals. It gives me the confidence that I'm always going to have clients like I'm. When you're going out on your own, starting your new business, I think. I think the first fear everyone has is, well, what if nobody needs me? What if nobody hires me? Well, I've already got plenty of clients right now to get me through this first year. And I'm just really confident that there's going to be more in the future. And once I have solved all the world's tax problems, I will just retire.

A (28:20)

Right. I'm sure that'll be sooner than anyone thinks because I know you do amazing work. So that is awesome. Yeah. And I think that's awesome too, is like recognizing, like you have a process and a system for referrals and you feel like that's a support that you have moving forward that gains that confidence. I love how you said, like, just the confidence and knowing the strategy that you put in place that is served, that served you and is now serving you on your own will continue to serve you. And that's really, really important. Okay, cool. So let me ask you our final question. It's the question I ask everybody at the end. But if you were to have a conversation with somebody, maybe another attorney, maybe another business owner, and they were considered considering hiring me and working with me in one of the three ways that I work with clients, what would you say to them as to why they should hire me?

B (29:08)

So I think. Well, I think the number one thing before I. Before I worked with you, like I said, I listened to your podcast, I read your book. I kind of already knew we were on the same wavelength in terms of referrals being based on relationships. But I definitely think your relationship focus just kind of sets you apart from other coaches and other people in this space. Because I think that that really resonated with me and it really means that the process I put in place for my referrals that you help me build is authentic to me and to the type of person I want to be. I think the other thing I realized as I started working with you is you are incredibly efficient and organized and you have. There is so much information that you give to people who work with you. And. And I just love the way it's organized. Like, we had our one on one meetings and other meetings, but also a lot of just training videos that you had available too. And before I had hired you for the coaching. I had talked to somebody else who worked with you, and he had told me. He's like, oh, yeah. Just so you know, she's going to give you so much stuff to do. If you even do, like, half of it, you'll still have a good result. So. So I think that's. That's so true, and I appreciate that because, you know, whatever half of the stuff he may have chosen for his practice isn't the same half I was going to choose. So I just love the. Just the. The breadth of services that you offer and ideas that you have. It's just an endless, endless supply. I think. I think anybody can find something there that they. They can run with and work with.

A (30:44)

I know exactly who you're talking about, too. I know exactly which one of my clients who shall remain nameless. Yeah, no, that is perfect. Yeah. That's the thing, Like, I think that's the thing that people underestimate when they're thinking about learning. The strategies that I teach is that I do. I'm gonna. There are 20 of them. Nobody needs all 20. I don't even use all 20. I know that they work, and I've taught them to people, and they're usually based on situations that someone finds themselves in. I'm like, hey, this isn't just you. Other people probably have this situation. But there are some strategies that people never need. And I. I mean, if I'm not using them all, clearly that doesn't mean somebody needs them all. But there, you know, there's some that I loved because you were like, just put it in place. Like, put them in place. Like, know how to write a thank you card. Like, don't think about it after you know how to write one, and just write it correctly moving forward. Right. Make sure your intake process knows how to collect the right information and plants a referral seed through the process. Like, some things are like, set it and forget it. But then you're right, there are other ways about generating referrals. And like, I was talking to one attorney considering joining the program, and he was just like, I don't know if I want to cultivate new people to refer me. And I was like, you don't have to. There's two other foundational strategies, not even including that one. That's the third one of where we can get referrals from, from a foundational perspective, let alone any of the other situational ones. So we're going to lean more into his client experience and the people who already refer him, and he's not going to have to worry about building a bunch of relationships. So it's like you can pick and choose what works for you as well, but you don't know, I don't think, until you kind of get into it.

B (32:17)

And that's what I really appreciate too, because that's been one area as I pivot and have my 10,000 things to do to set up my firm. Like, I feel like my process can also adapt with me because I've kind of stepped back from doing the new referral source generation as well. But I feel like I have a process in place that once I'm ready, it's just gonna be super easy to get back into it. So I think your program's also very adaptable as well.

A (32:41)

Definitely. Because here's the thing, I want you to learn what you learned, and I want you and I to have a conversation five years from now, and you can be like, hey, it's these five things, or it's three, three things. Or it's these eight things. And we do them consistently, we do them every year. And this is where we get our referral growth from. Like, nothing would make me happier than to know that you've adapted what you needed, left what you didn't, and carried it forward. Not the next year. Right. I don't want to be anybody's one hit wonder, but like, five years from now, 10 years from now, you know, when you're at that point, you're getting ready to sell your firm and you'll be like, hey, I built it this way and here's the processes and my stuff's going to be a part of that. So I think that's really awesome. So. Well, Sally, you were a joy to work with because you did the work. So let me just go forth and say that as well. You were a joy to work with. I loved having you as a client. It was so fun to see you kind of like dig in and do this. And you did it in a shortened time period. So I think that's awesome. And of course you had great results. And whereas most of my clients know this, I take all the credit in the world for all the fabulous results you had. But the truth is, it is not my credit to take. You followed the roadmap and you put in the work and you were consistent. And ultimately you deserve those referrals. I just helped you find them. So congratulations to you. Congratulations on your referral success. Congratulations on starting your firm. And, and we are going to link how people can connect with you so they can learn more about you on the show notes page for this episode. But before we say goodbye, why don't you just tell folks where they can connect with you? Where's the best place for them to connect with you?

B (34:09)

Yeah. So probably my website, readytaxlaw.com my email sallyaddytaxlaw.com and you can find me on LinkedIn.

A (34:19)

Yep. And that's ready is R, E, D, D. Yes. Anybody thinking it's the ready the way we spell the other Reddy.

B (34:25)

Yes. Yes.

A (34:26)

Right.

B (34:26)

I forgot I have to have to always spell my last name.

A (34:29)

Well, same thing with me. I always have to say Stacy. Stacy with an E. Like it just doesn't go away. So awesome. Okay, well, thank you so much, Sally, for being here today. I appreciate you.

B (34:39)

Thank you so much. Take care.

A (34:41)

I hope that you enjoyed that conversation I had with Sally. I think it was such a unique perspective because she knew while she was in the coaching program that she would be making sure she had the right strategies and processes in place and just the right plans in place to be able to support her as she launched her own firm. But also building the confidence to know, okay, I can generate referrals, I can get business on my own and I can go out on my own, which are amazing things. So I'm so proud of her and I'm so glad that she trusted me to come into the coaching program building a referable business and we got to help her have the success she's had now. This interview was actually recorded months and months ago, like more than six months ago from the actual time that we made it live. It just, it's how it worked out with our editorial calendar for this year year. So when you hear Sally talk about things we're she was talking about like having just kind of like finished up her time and she'd only been really doing it for so many months and she had just launched her own firm. So I should check in with Sally because now it's like six months since our recording. I bet even a more amazing things have happened for her. So I'll make a note to myself to check in with Sally and I hope you enjoyed the interview I did with Sally. Remember, if you are looking for how to connect with Sally, all of the links of her website and how to connect with her on social media are available along with the transcript of this episode. Plus where you can go to download your free chapter of my new book, the referral client Experience. All of that is available on the show notes page for this episode, which can be found at stacybrownrandall.com forward/382 all right, thanks for making it to the end, my friend. Until next week, take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Vice versa for now.