B (3:39)

Hi there. I'm Naomi Gora, the founder of Brand Whisperers, and I use my founder profiling system to help business owners rebrand when they know their current brand is just not showing how good they are. Today, I'm taking over Stacy's Roadmap to Referrals podcast and sharing an interview I did with her on my founder profile YouTube series. We dive into more than just referrals, but how Stacy built her business and how she runs it best based on her founder type, which is the station master. So join us and learn more about how knowing your founder profile can make your business easier and more profitable to run. And check out the Show Notes pages for a link to discover your own founder type. Hi, I'm Naomi Gora, founder of Brand Whisperers, and in this series of founder profiles, we're going behind the scenes with founders who have built successful businesses in very different ways based on how they think, lead and sell best. So today I'm joined by Stacy Brown Randall. She is the founder of Referrals Without Asking and author of the upcoming book the Referable Client Experience Experience, which is out in October, if I'm correct. Yes, and she is the host of the Roadmap to Referrals podcast and she teaches business owners how to generate referrals naturally without manipulating, incentivizing, or even asking, which is fabulous for so many introvert business owners especially, but I guess it applies to everyone. She's also received her master's in organizational communication and is married with three kids. So now, based on my founder type system, Stacy is a station master. And station masters are natural resource wizards. And they often have their to do list handled before the rest of us have Even got out of bed, which I'm very jealous of. And while they often lead with systems and structure, what I find is their brands really get traction when they start to focus on the human behind the systems, which is something I can't wait to talk to Stacy about. So welcome, Stacy.

A (5:38)

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. It's. It's nice to talk about a topic that is so important to being a business owner, but not necessarily all about referrals, which is what I usually talk about when I get on podcasts. So I'm excited.

B (5:53)

We'll talk about a bit of both. This would be great. So now, before we get into your founder type, you're known for teaching business owners how to generate referrals without asking, which is quite a bold shift from the norm and the way we're all told to do it. What made you choose this specific methodology?

A (6:13)

So I stumbled upon it by accident and actually after a lot of trial and error, I mean, I think it'd be really cool to be like, I just woke up one day and all of a sudden I was brilliant. When it came to referrals, that would be a pretty cool story in and of itself. But I had a first business that failed. It was a human resource HR consulting firm. It did not quite make it to the five year mark. It made it just past the four year mark before it failed. And I had to go back to corporate America and once been a business owner and you've kind of tasted that entrepreneurial freedom. I mean, it's freedom in its own way, but it is a freedom of not having a 9 to 5 and a boss and a co workers and all the things it, it's really hard to go back to it. And so when that, oh my God, it was so hard. And so I always knew I was meant to be an entrepreneur. I come from a family of entrepreneurs. And so when my business failed and I went back to corporate, I was like, how do I get out of here? And about 15 to 16 months after being in corporate, I found my next exit strategy, my next escape route. And I was certified as a productivity and business coach, which shocker than my type of course is station master, kind of fits very well with that. Not surprising. And I needed my second business as a productivity coach to be successful and I needed to do things differently. And I had learned a lot of hard lessons from my first business failure. And one of the things I started paying attention to was how I was going to generate business. And specifically in A way that felt good so that I would keep doing it. And referrals, of course, is the first thing that comes to mind. But all the advice is terrible. It's like, you got to ask for it, and I'm, like, not going to do that. And so I kind of just started testing out things, and it was a little bit like, let's throw a bunch of spaghetti on the wall. Let's see what sticks. And I started realizing as referrals were coming in that there was actually something that there was parts and pieces that I did pretty consistently. And so I'm really big in my ability to reverse engineer things. So after I got 112 referrals in my first year as a business owner without asking for them, I was like, what am I doing? Exactly. My clients were now saying, thanks for being our productivity coach, but we'd rather you teach us about referrals. So that kind of forces you to figure out how to teach it to others. Like, it's one thing to just figure it out for yourself and make it work. It's another thing to then reverse engineer what you're actually doing so that you can teach it to someone else. And that was about 12 years ago when I started doing. Yeah. And I was like, okay, this referral thing, it has legs. I'm different. I'm based on not asking and the science of referrals. And so I kind of went all in on that and hung up my productivity coach hat and went all in on teaching the referral aspect. So that's how I am where I am today. Yeah.

B (9:02)

And it's so interesting that as a station master, because I find as station masters, they naturally lean towards systems and productivity, which your business did. But then when they bring the human element in, that's when they really start to thrive. And that's exactly what you unknowingly did by bringing sort of, like, the humanity into referrals, like, from your system. It's. I think I heard you say this once. I don't know if I'm making it up, but you said, like, referral systems are just about being good. Good humans like, being good to people.

A (9:35)

Yeah. It's like, I always tell folks, I feel like I spend most of my days reminding my clients to just be a good human.

B (9:41)

Yeah, I think that's what you said.

A (9:42)

Yeah. But the reality of it is there's, like, a process and a structure and all the things that go behind that. You know, like, it's funny, like, I. You have referred Matt to me, and, like, when he and I were talking one day, I was like, listen, at the end of the day, like it's gonna feel like, oh, I, I kind of know how to do this. I kind of know how to be a good human. Most people I work with know how to be a good human. But I was like, but if we don't put a process and a structure behind it, you'll forget because you'll get busy.

B (10:09)

So you're doing it consistently. And that's one thing station masters are really good at, being consistent and being structured and being organized. So it's putting a system behind what a lot of us know how to do naturally. But in business we're not doing consistently, methodically, in a way that we can measure.

A (10:27)

Right, exactly, exactly.

B (10:29)

Which is what you do. So that's your brilliant. And do you ever find that the system side of things can overtake the relational side? So being so naturally productive and systems oriented, do you find it hard to remember to stay in touch with that human side or is it natural now?

A (10:48)

Yeah. So you know what it is? I think it's, for me it's age. Like more than anything. I think the 20 year old Stacy was very much into the to do list and the knocking things off her list and didn't really pay attention to probably the trickle down effect to the impact on how other people come to things a little bit later, a little bit slower, or they're like, you gotta allow them to catch up or sometimes you're charging ahead, you miss all the things that other people are seeing. And so I think had I uncovered the referral strategy then I'm not sure I would have applied it in the same way or with the same, what I would say, like maturity or wisdom that I bring to it today. Because here I am decades later and it's. And I, you know, I've been doing this now for a while and so I really do look at it from that perspective of there is a balance and you have to be willing to balance both. Now that I think age is how I think the point of my maturity right from like the 20 year old to like the 40 year old, I think my maturity from a business owner perspective was a big push behind why and how my strategy developed. I also think it has a little bit to do that I was just more inclined to notice there's a human side here that we can't forget about. Because a little bit of my enneagram being I am a three, I am an achiever, I'm like, let's go make it happen fits very well with Station Master, but my wing is the two, which is the heart. And so I also think I'm kind of uniquely built to notice both. So, you know, I'll have my clients say like, how can I say this? And I was like, it's not really about how you can say this as much as it is how is the other person that you're saying it to going to receive it. And I think that's just a part of a natural makeup of who I am that allowed me to see those things, connect the dots and make it happen. I mean, I have lots of people who come to me and they're like, can you write me a 12 point email drip campaign that I can send out and turn on and not worry about? And then referrals will just flow in and just automate everything. And I don't want to touch it. I want to do anything to talk to anybody, just like make the emails go out and make the referrals come in. I'm like, no, and I won't work with you if that's how you think. Because that's not what's going to work. That's not what the science shows us of how it works. And we kind of know that. Like most people know that in their gut you have to balance it.

B (13:11)

They're looking for an easy out. But really it just there needs to be human. It's human to human. Yeah. That's how people buy things.

A (13:19)

Yeah. I mean, what, what is it about business owners and the easy button? And I'm just right. I am just as guilty. There are some times that I'm like, why is this so hard? I don't want this to be so hard. Right. Like, I will duct tape something to make it easier than sometimes taking the time to break it apart and make it the right way it's supposed to be. So, I mean, I'm just as guilty about it. There's just, I think we do, I think we lean towards things that we look for the easy button in our business for and for me, sales and marketing. And then of course, as I dialed that into referrals, that wasn't something I was like, what's the easiest way to do this? But for a lot of people and the clients that I work with, they are experts at what they do. Right. They are the amazing cpa, right. Who decide who working at a company and decides to start their own. They are the amazing attorney. Right. Or solicitor, and they decide to start their like at a firm and they decide to Start their own. They're this amazing interior designer working for a company or deciding that, but they want to be in business for themselves. Right. It doesn't matter. Marketing consultant, business coach, it doesn't matter. But when we become business owners, I think there's, like, this shift that happens where, like, I just want to live in my zone of expertise. I want to show up every day and be brilliant and do the things for the people that they love me for my clients. But then there's, like, all these other moving pieces and parts to being a business owner. And when something isn't easy or natural to you, we go looking for the easy button.

B (14:47)

And if it's things, there's many different hats that we have to wear. So anywhere there can be an easy button, it's tempting.

A (14:54)

Yeah. It's so many. I mean, it's so. So many hats. We know this, right? But, like, that's the thing is, like, when I tell folks, I'm like, we go looking for easy buttons, and they do exist in some areas of your business, and you should hit the heck out of them. Like when you can hit the easy button with the whack a molecule. Yeah. When you can whack a mole, the easy button, you should be doing it. But there are other times where it is very, very limiting and can be destructive to your business. And referrals and relationships are one of those places where you shouldn't be looking for the shortcut or the easy button that you should be focused on. You don't need to waste a bunch of time. You don't need to be spending 20 hours a month. Right. Trying to cultivate relationships to get referrals like, that you're doing it wrong if you're. If it's taking you that much time. But there is this idea that you got to put in some work for another human to decide to put their relationship on the line and refer a client to you. And so I think that's the piece I'm always helping people understand. We are balancing engagement with efficiency.

B (15:54)

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Yeah. Because people know when they're being shoved into an efficient system, don't they? They can. You know, you get the vibe when it's just like, you're. You're not trying to build a relationship with me. You just want something.

A (16:09)

Yes. Because here's the thing. Like, sometimes I tell folks, I'm like, sometimes it's okay to, like, stay up front, what you're looking for. Right. Like, if you're, like, reaching out to a Prospect and you're like, hey, like, if you can do it in a way that's sometimes cheeky, that gets their attention and be like, hey, listen, like, I, I may want to pitch to you, like, that's one thing, but you can't do that with people who are considering referring you to someone else. That's all trust based, that's all relationship based. There aren't any gimmicky sales, sleazy tactics or like the latest bright and shiny object. They're going to work because this taps into people that the people who refer people to it taps into them on an entirely different level. And you have to respect that.

B (16:54)

Yeah. And isn't that true, like a lot of business, when it comes down to it, and being successful in business is simple, but it's not necessarily easy to execute. But the principles are simple ideas that if repeated consistently, sort of work.

A (17:12)

Yes, I would completely agree with that. And I think the other thing that I would add to that is, is that sometimes what I, what I teach you don't know what it is until you hear me say it or teach it. And then you're like, that is so simple. But why didn't I think of that? That's why I get to have a business. And that's my zone of genius. There's lots of things I can't do for you, but that's when I can, so.

B (17:36)

Yeah, exactly. And just something that you touched on before, which I think might be helpful to other station masters, especially maybe in their younger years, is I've worked with a lot of station masters and interviewed a few, and there's a common thing that sort of comes up in that generally they have pretty high standards. Like, they generally want to be the best at something. Would you relate to that? Like you want to be the best in your industry and, you know, maybe think staff or people you work with and maybe like, wow, she's got some pretty high standards.

A (18:10)

Yes. So it. Yes, 100%. Yes. Just to tell an embarrassing story about me, when I was younger, I would not play sports or play games, like, even like board games where I didn't think I could win. Like, I was like, if I can't win at this, if I can't be good at this, I'm just not interested in trying. Like, there's nothing healthy about that. I mean, I totally recognize that's not a healthy way to think, but that's like, I was that competitive and I was that focused on, like doing it and doing it well and doing it to an excellent Standard that, like, the minute I felt like those around me were eclipsing me, I was like, I'm gonna exit stage left. Like, that was me in competitive soccer. It was me in competitive softball when I was younger. And they were like, hey, yeah, I'll never forget, my coach came to me on. I was on this travel team and came to me and he was like, listen, you're gonna have to start slide tackling. This was in soccer. And they're like, you're gonna have to start slide tackling. And I was like, yeah, no, I can't do that. I don't want to learn that. So I'm gonna quit soccer.

B (19:12)

Wow.

A (19:14)

That's like. But, you know, part of it is just knowing yourself well. And then part of it's just being like, I don't know if I can't get much to learn.

B (19:23)

So I was just, like, good at other, like, other things. I guess there's other places where you can maybe be and that that's maybe part of your efficiency. It's like, there's another place where I can be more efficiently better.

A (19:34)

Yeah. And I would say that that carried me on a lot. And then you mature, right? And then you. You age, and then you realize that it's sometimes easier just to figure out where you're actually naturally at your best. And I went through this huge journey in my business between 2020 and 2021, and I would not say it was Covid global pandemic related at all. I think it was just a matter because it really came to head for me in figuring out, like, how can I be the best at what I do, where my clients get their best success, But I can also show up in a way that breathes life into me and isn't draining in terms of how I work with my clients. And so I do think from a maturity perspective, there's a lot that comes into place about how I look at being excellent and how I look at being the best. That definition has shifted. That definition has changed. There's certain things, like, I have standards, like, my assistant will tell you, but there's just certain things we don't do. Like Stacy, like, we do it a certain way. It looks a certain way. Like, that's part of the brand, that's part of the standards, and that's part of, like, the excellence that I'm aiming for. And there's other areas where I would say that definitions totally shifted and changed to serve me better and then also my life stage better.

B (20:50)

Yeah, absolutely. And when it's something I see from Station Masters is around teams and collaborations when sometimes when they're younger, they have these really high standards of what needs to happen. And not. Not with all of them. But it seems to be a theme that, you know, they can't find the right. Right staff or people to support them because those standards are so high. And eventually they have to mellow and go. Not everyone can complete things in exactly the way I want them. And, you know, I need to accept the humanity in that, that not everybody's as good, consistent as I am. Is that something?

A (21:26)

I mean, Yeah. I can remember times when I've worked with. So, you know, I had two businesses, so I had the pleasure of having these businesses span decades with me. And I can remember a couple of things I had to do. Like, a couple times I would, like, freak out because something wasn't done on time or to my standard, and it would, like, burn bridges. And now I would never freak out. I'd be like, well, that sucks, but it just is what it is. Like, I'm not accepting mediocrity. But I also recognize that my standards, you know, aren't necessarily what everybody else's are. Like, I have a friend who always say, like. Like, we'll talk on the phone. And she'd be like, so, how was yesterday? Was it productive? And I'd be like, no, not really. And she'd be like, what'd you get done? And then I would list, like, 15 things, and she'd be like, stacy, your level of not productive is like, the same as somebody else's. Like, the best day ever, being productive. And you're saying that's not productive because you didn't get everything done or all the things you wanted to get done. So I definitely still struggle with that. But when it comes to dealing with other humans, there's absolutely a mellowing. Like, I can. I feel it in myself, like, something won't be done right. And I'll be like, man, if this was me 20 years ago, I would have been freaking out. But me of today is like, yeah, it's okay. Like, not the end of the world. Like, I remember when I used to hire folks to work with me, like, either as, like, you know, a virtual assistant or like a contractor. And this was like, you know, many, many, many, many years ago. I used to have to apologize in advance, and I used to have to say, hey, listen, when you get emails from me, they're very rarely never going to include pleasantries. It won't say, hey, how are you? How was your Weekend. Hope you're doing well. It'll be like, hey, what do I need? I was like, it's not, I'm not trying to be rude. I'm not trying to like look like a hard ass. Right. It's like coming across with like, just give me what I need. I was like, it doesn't always register with me to stop and start with a pleasantry. I usually with my, and this is still in my communication, like the fact that language is like my, my special superpower is really funny that this is then something I struggle with. But when I'm sending emails, particularly to people that I work with on my team, not really clients, like I, I, I have a different thought process when I'm dealing with clients or prospects. But if you're on my team or you're a vendor of my company, I have to remind myself to go back to the front of the email and put in a how are you doing?

B (23:49)

Because brain is wide for efficiency and productivity. And so that will track is yes. And I've, I found that watched station masters run their business and one of the things that causes them the most stress and potentially ends up with them leaving their business is that they can't accept that their staff or collaborators may be at a standard that's different to those and it just really stresses them out to the point of burnout. And then they feel like they have to do everything themselves because no one else can do it. Right.

A (24:23)

I think that was a big part of the shift my business took on in 2021 because I wanted to be able to be successful, but to be able to work less and have less reliant on other humans, it's just really, and you know, I have, I've always had pretty much like a part time virtual assistant, though sometimes their hours are not really part time, they're more full time, but like just depending on the season that we're in. But that idea of always having that, that person, that's like supporting me or whatever. But I noticed the depending on how you decide to deploy your services, you can work a lot and then figuring out how to streamline that so that it would meet my standards and it was never going to. The shift I made in 2021 would never have worked if it wasn't giving my clients the number one thing they craved, which was more access to me, which sounds like a conundrum or like I'm contradicting myself because I'm giving my clients more access to me, but I'm actually working less and it really took some time to figure out the model of my business to support the here's where I want to be excellent, and I need space and time to be excellent. And then here's how the business needs to run so the rest of the stuff isn't bogging me down. That's not to say that I don't sometimes feel like I'm drowning under a bunch of tasks and I've fallen behind or I've fallen into like a season of procrastination or I just have a lot. Like, we're, you know, gearing up for a book launch. Like, there's just a lot happening. There's like, my assistant's like, oh my God, please don't do another one of these books for a couple years. This is crazy, right? Like, so there's just a lot that happens. But yeah, I had to shift the business so that I. Because I am the type of person who will try to get it. I don't do perfect anymore. I have definitely evolved from the perfectionist tendencies, but the good enough is sometimes perfect for other people. For me, it's just good enough. And as I've evolved from that, I've had to force changes and expectations and then really looked at. Let's build a business that serves me. Not one that I ever like, am irritated by. Because the minute a business owner gets irritated, that we get irritated in the moments, but the minute we get irritated at the idea of our business, like, we are headed down a dangerous, dangerous path. And that's what happened with my first business. That's why it failed. I mean, granted, it may have been also because I wasn't bringing in enough clients, but it first started with my mindset around, like, just resenting the business and you just can't. That doesn't give me successful with that.

B (26:53)

No, there's. I mean, there's some. There's some days, isn't there? There's some days up and down. But when it's overall, you're waking up, presenting it, something has to change.

A (27:03)

Yes.

B (27:04)

Yeah, that's. That's good advice for everyone, not just the station masters. So the next thing I wanted to talk about is your brand message, because brand is often around identity and the human side of things. But, you know, your brand is super clear. The messaging is super clear. It. It. When I look at it, it's so organized and so put together with the colors and the fonts and the messaging and it's, you know, scream station master with all the. The stats that it has on, you know, what Works with referrals, but it also emphasizes that human touch. Like, there's a really clear identity around it. So has that clarity been there from the start, or is that something that came along as well with. With your brand? Like, you're always green, for example.

A (27:49)

So it's. Some choices were made in the very, very beginning by, like, happenstance. And then I realized, oh, this works. And so I've just kept it. So the green. Right. I remember, like, I didn't choose green because I wanted green to be the color of my brand. It's not even my favorite color, which most people are, like, surprised to learn. They're like, what do you mean? I'm like, no, it's not my favorite color. But, you know, I listened to some advice when I was in my 20s starting my first business, and someone's like, oh, yeah, you. You know, you have. You can't do. I don't remember what they said, but it was something like, you can't pick red because it means stop.

B (28:25)

Oh, stop.

A (28:25)

Yeah, it's like, angry and stopping and, you know, and then there's like, you can't pick some other color? I can't remember the color they told me I couldn't pick. And I was like, well, I read my favorite color, actually. I would have loved to have had red. And I was like, okay, well, then green it is. And then it's just. Green means go. Green means grow. I mean, it means all the things. And I wear it a lot, so it's a good color for my skin type. That's kind of nice, too. White would not have been the right color for me. So, I mean, I think from that perspective, some things have just happened, and then I have the ability to, like, recognize it and then stick with it and be like, okay, this is how it looks. I would say that I. When I look at my brand, it's kind of always had the same feeling to it. But that's because I resonate. Like. I resonate with, like, clean lines, not a lot of clutter. Like, if you walk into my house, you'd be like, oh, there's not. Like, it's always tidy. It's all. Everything always is in its place. And I have trained the other humans in my life to do the same. They're not as great at it anymore because they're now teenagers. But, like, there is, like, you would notice, there's. It's a part of what I'm drawn to, right? And I'm drawn to, like, clean and, like, a slightly more modern look. But not completely modern. And so some of those things I just think, because if I had to look at my website or my marketing and I didn't like it, there's no way you wouldn't. That I would ever put it out there for the world to see. And I think some of that has to do with. It's just always been there because it's what I've always. What I respond positively to. And luckily for me, that's just, you know, it's happened. It goes out into the marketplace and people have the same reaction. They're like, oh, it's really clean. It's really dialed in. But a lot of that evolved. Like, it just evolved over time. The messaging evolved, the language evolved. Like, the fact that I teach people how to generate referrals based on science was always there when I started my business. So when I started my business back in 2013, the fact that I was teaching people how to generate referrals, to not ask and not pay for it and not be gimmicky or promotional, that was always rooted in the science of why people refer and how to get people to refer you. And even though I was teaching that and I was teaching the not asking, it didn't dawn on me until 2016 to put it in my marketing. So, like, I've had some huge misses.

B (30:51)

We all do as well.

A (30:53)

Yeah. So, like, I remember, like, it was proof true. It was like 2016. It dawned on me that actually my differentiator is the fact that I teach you how to generate referrals without asking. I've always said it, but I didn't lead with it. It wasn't like the first thing you knew about me. Now, since, you know, 2016, that's what people know about me. They're like, oh, referrals, but without asking. And then the science piece came a few years after that. I was like, oh, duh. Like that's what I do. But I didn't make it a part of, like, the marketing and the branding and the. The how, you know me. And so, yeah, so, like, sometimes the things exist. We just haven't figured out that that's what we should put as the cornerstone or the front and center part of our business.

B (31:32)

Yeah, exactly. It's the thing that. And then what. That's what I find with branding is often in your own. And I find this with my own brand. I'm a branding person. But you're too close to it to see what other people see from the outside. And yes, really obvious thing. This is obviously what you do really well. And you're like, oh, oh. But that's just what I do.

A (31:54)

This is so natural to me. Yeah.

B (31:56)

I didn't think it was a big deal. Like, oh, really, I should leave with that. Oh, okay.

A (32:01)

Like, that makes so much more sense.

B (32:03)

Exactly. But, yeah, that's the one thing, and especially being a station master is your brand is consistent. Like, you look across all your platforms, and it's so, so consistent. And I think sometimes when it comes to brand, because brands are, you know, creative things, I always say a brand should be creative when you make it, but not when you execute it. And I find a lot of business owners feel like they need to get creative with their business and they move it around. And it's like on their website, it looks one way, and on socials, it's a slightly different.

A (32:33)

Oh, yeah.

B (32:34)

And then it sort of all looks disjointed. But what yours does is stick to the system really well. So it's memorable. It's clear, it's consistent. Like, everywhere you go, you've got this footprint that is memorable.

A (32:46)

Yeah. There have definitely been moments. I'm sure any assistant that's ever worked for me can tell you where I'll be like, that's not the right shade of green. And they'll be like, oh, my gosh. Right. Like, but it's true. Like, and sometimes we use different shades of green on purpose, but, like, a lot of times I'll be like, that's not. I don't know what happened there, but that is not the right color. So, yeah, yeah.

B (33:07)

You got to stay consistent. Excellent.

A (33:09)

Yeah.

B (33:10)

And so part of your. What part of your referral system do clients tend to underestimate until they start using it?

A (33:19)

I think the thing they tend to underestimate is. So there's two things that happen. The first thing they underestimate is actually how normal it will feel doing it. In the beginning, there's this overwhelming sense of, can I do this? I don't know. And then they start doing it, and they're like, oh, that's exactly how I would have done it. Any. Like, that's how I talk. Like, that's how I would have said it. Like, it's because it's new. Right? They're learning something new. They're learning new formulas, new ways to do things, but then they start doing it and they're like, oh, wait, this is be a good human normal. Right. So I think that's the first thing that's underestimated. When people are starting with me. Then after They've pretty much implemented my systems for about a year and they're moving into their second year. I think sometimes they underestimate the wash, rinse, repeat factor in it. The fact that you can build out these processes, you can build out these SOPs, you can put these plans of nurturing in place and then run it every year. And you don't. Yes, you should probably change some things. And yes, you definitely have to make sure you're continuing to keep the right people and remove the people who don't need to be on the list anymore. But that there is this idea like, oh, this is how I run my business. There's so many clients I've worked with that once they get past that second year, like, I'm thinking of Amanda, who's an attorney, who's like, in her ninth year of like, or maybe now her 10th year of like, running the process, like, just following the process and doing it. She was like, I don't even see it as the Stacy process. I learned 10 years ago, it's just how I run my business. It's just a part of our DNA within the company, within the firm. And so I think that's the thing that sometimes people underestimate is the fact that I want you to put these things in place, place, and then I want you to just let them do their job. Like, do the things you need to do so they can do the work. But this isn't like, change it up after year two, change it up after year four, go back and learn a new way to do it. Like, there's no algorithm changing, right? That's not what you ever have to deal with. It's not like your social media strategy has to change or your SEO strategy has to change every time the algorithm change or chat. GPT takes you by storm, right? Like, you don't have to worry about your where you're showing up. In search, it's analogous because it's relationships and it's humans. And actually sometimes going back to the basics is the number one thing you can do. So I think that's the other thing sometimes folks underestimate is that, oh, I just keep this going. I've been doing this for a year. I've been doing this for two years. Oh, it's working. And they're like, and there's no major changes. I'm like, no. Because there's not an algorithm changing. This is relationships. And they're pretty constant. You just have to make sure you're nurturing them consistently. But you don't have to be changing this up and changing the strategy and trying to do a bunch of different things year after year after year. Just be consistent.

B (36:03)

It's sort of like. Like, part comes part of your business, like brushing your business teeth. Like, you. Like, you do that every day, and you do it, and it doesn't change, but you do need to remember to do it, and you build it into what you do. It's. And it gives you things.

A (36:17)

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I'll tell you the clients that come back to me, and they'll be like, I had amazing first two years working with you, and then I fell off the wagon, and I just stopped doing the things that Stacy taught me to do in year three and year four. And then they can see the decrease in referrals and the decrease in their business, and they're like, oh, I need to get back to doing it. And I always tell folks, I'm like, just because you build it, what. This is not Field of Dreams, right? This is not the movie Field of Dreams where if you build it, they will come. That's not how this works.

B (36:48)

Doesn't work.

A (36:49)

You have to. Right? Like, you have to keep doing the work. You have to keep building those relationships. But at the end of the day, it is a process you can put in place. You just got to keep running that same process.

B (36:59)

Spoken like a true station master. I love it. So what do you think has contributed most to the success of your brand? Your. The methodology, your messaging, your visible profile, which is quite visible now, or something else or a combination?

A (37:17)

Oh, it's so funny, because you asked that question of, like, what do you think has contributed to your success? And I'm like, I haven't arrived yet. What are you talking about?

B (37:27)

Good enough.

A (37:28)

We're not there yet. Like, what are you talking about? There's so much we have to improve. There's so much more to do. Like, I'm only coming out with my second book. I should have technically been on my fourth by now.

B (37:38)

Oh, my goodness. So far your success so far?

A (37:43)

Yeah, so far in the success. I don't know if I know 100% how to answer that question. I think that the fact that I found a blue ocean with how I teach referrals, like, I think it would be crazy for me to act like that wasn't contributing to my success. So. And, you know, whether I found it or it found me, either way, we're together. But, you know, most people who teach referrals, they teach referrals from, like, here's how you ask, or here's how you have, like 15,000 different networking groups that you're a part of. Or here's how you have a run a referral program where you pay money when people send you leads. Like, that's the red ocean where everything.

B (38:24)

That you send out. I hate that one. The template that you send out to every customer going, oh, we've. I really enjoyed working with you. Now can you tell other people about me? I'm like, oh, no, I'm not doing that.

A (38:36)

Oh, don't do it. It's awkward and uncomfortable and you shouldn't do it. Right? So I think there's a lot of people who teach referrals. And by. I'm like one of a million, right? Probably. Or at least a whole bunch of thousands. And I figured out the blue ocean of what makes me different is that I don't teach you to ask or compensate or pay or be gimmicky or spend a thousand hours a month in networking. I teach you how to do it differently by based on science, based on understanding how referrals work and based on what will work for you and doing that from a science perspective and the referrals without asking. It would be crazy for me to be like, that's not a part of my success. It totally, totally is. But I think what contributes to some of the longevity of the success that I've had and maybe the longevity of some of the cli. Like, I've had some clients that I've had the privilege of working with them for, like, six, seven, eight years now. That's not the point of working with me. The point is to get what you need in a year and be done. Depending on what program you come through, you're either going to be done in 90 days or you're going to be done in a year, or you're gonna be done in 14 months. But the people who are like, nope. Because I do have, like, a program where people can stay on in year two and beyond. We call it referral masters. And it's really just to stay connected to me so they can keep getting questions answered. And when I do something new, they get access to it and things. It's like a maintenance extension program. And sometimes I've had people saying that thing for six or seven years, and they'll come to me and they'll be like, I think I'm ready to graduate. And I'd be like, you were ready five years ago, but I love that you stuck around because I love to watch the evolution of your Business and I'd love to keep helping you, but at some point you just don't need me anymore. Like, I'm not anybody's security blanket that you take to college with you. Like, that's not how it works. That's not who I want to be. And so I think that's the other thing that has really contributed to my success, is that the clients that really allow themselves to like do the work come to me. Because most of my clients, depending on how you work with me, have unlimited access to me. Like, you can get on my calendar and schedule a 30 minute zoom whenever you want. Most don't do it enough, but the ones that like really lean into that and they show up to the things they're supposed to show up to and they do the stuff they're supposed to do and they ask me questions when they need it. I think the number one thing they would tell you is that I really care. And sometimes I care more than they do. And that's not really great for like my time probably. But I think that's the other thing is that I truly believe what I teach and I truly believe in my client's ability to be successful. I can't do it for them, but I really care about their success. And I think there's a lot of clients that would probably echo that same sentiment as like, when I think about how I want my clients to respond. So, like, one thing I teach in my new book coming out, referable client experience, is you build your entire referable client experience based on what's called your ideal client reaction script, which is different for every business. It's like, how do you want your clients to respond? What are the adjectives, what are the descriptors you want them to use when they talk about what it was like to work with you? And then you build based on what you want them to say. You build your business with those in mind and your client experience with those in mind. And one of mine is I want them to feel cared for and seen and supported. And so I try to live that out through my client experience. So I would say those. There's probably more that's contributed to my success, but I would say those two are probably really driving factors of just the. What I teach is different. I'm a contrarian and it works. And I really care about my client's success and they know it and they can feel it.

B (42:16)

Yeah. And I think that like, that's something that I've also seen in station masters as well, is that they are so focused on systems and processes. But the underlying thing is it's always in the service of implications. Improve, like getting better outcomes for people and they really care. But sometimes it can come across quite like they just care about the systems and the productivity. But there's a deep will of caring behind that. It's like, I just want better things for you. Why doesn't anyone want to take on the systems that will make your life better?

A (42:47)

And, you know, it's funny, I will also say that, but I've also had to get to a point where I've had to say, okay, you know what? I can't babysit you, though.

B (42:55)

Yeah. Yep.

A (42:56)

So there does come that time I had kind of had a reckoning within myself and I started talking about it in this way. I, I even in my, like, webinars or talking to prospects when they're thinking about working with me, I'm like, okay, let's talk about accountability. Because you want it and I want to give it to you, but you don't really want it. You think you want it, but you probably don't want it. So let's talk about it. I'm like, there's three times accountability in my world. There's baby accountability, where I have to do everything for you because you do everything for a baby. I was like, and then there's teenager accountability, where I have to just nag you to death to it, and I can sometimes do it for you. And then there's grownup accountability, where I will tell you to do it, I will remind you to do it. I will follow up one or two times. But I'm not your wife, and I'm not your mother and I'm not your sister, so I'm not going to nag you.

B (43:41)

I love.

A (43:41)

And I really had to shift, like, how I communicate with my clients. And then I had to do a lot of work internally on myself to be okay with it. Right. I had one client who worked with me at the VIP level. And when you're a VIP with me, I, like, build your referral strategy. And then I go to you and I spend two days with you and your team, and we build everything out, we implement everything, and then you have, like, a year's worth of access to me. And they started out really strong. Like, the two days went great. We put a lot of stuff in practice. They started working on things, and then at some point, they just totally fizzled out. And I'm the type of person that's going to carry stress and anxiety to that. But I kept saying, nope. Every month they hear from me and every month they get the zoom link where they can schedule time. And every month I'm asking for what they're working on and at some point they just start ghosting you. And some do this and some don't. And I, it's not my fault. It's not my fault. It's not the program's fault. Like, it just is what it is. But that took a lot of time to be like, what did I do wrong? And like, be like, it's not that. It's more. Sorry, it's like more you than it is me. Like, it's just kind of what it is. And I had this one client come back to me at the very end when we were like off boarding them, and yet they hadn't done anything with me in eight months. And he was like, hey, just so you know, we did put things in place. We didn't tell you everything we put in place. We did have success. I am thrilled with the investment that we made, but I also know we probably left a bunch of stuff on the table because we didn't follow up. And then he said, but that's on me and my team and that's not on you and your program and what you teach. He was like, so thanks for, you know, working with us. So I have realized when you work with grown ups, they can bring a grown up approach to how, what, what they are responsible for as well.

B (45:23)

How great is that as a service though? In that he got what he needed. But he, I mean, he could have got more, but he still got what he needed and it was successful and you didn't actually need to do a lot at all. So valuable for both of you.

A (45:39)

It's crazy. I mean, I have another VIP client and I'm like, if I don't see on my calendar twice a month, you're never going to make progress. So get on my calendar. Like sometimes it's just different, right? Like some people get what they need. Everyone's different. And that's, that's why my programs are built the way they're built.

B (45:53)

So it's flexible systems. I think that's the thing for Station Masters, is flexible systems.

A (45:59)

Definitely.

B (46:01)

Wonderful. And so my last question, I would love to know if, for all the other Station Master business owners out there, do you have one piece of advice that might help them in their business journey?

A (46:17)

Oh, just one piece of advice. It's a lot harder than I think. You know, here's the thing that I would recommend for Station masters. I would recommend this for everybody, but really speaking to the folks that are like me, that are station masters, we are really, really good at working in our business. We know how to make the to do list, we know how to make the task list, we know how to have the project management software. We know how to move the needle forward. We need to. We know how to get things done. But the importance of us taking a step back and doing it, not the once a year business planning, but multiple times throughout the year to step back and assess where the business is headed, where we're spending our time, what our team is spending their time on and is that the right things and making sure you're just taking that step back and reflecting on the progress you've made and maybe the gaps that you've identified and making sure you're spending time on the right things. Because Stace and Mash, and I know this is for me, in my opinion, is that I'm really good at just getting it off the to do list. But that doesn't mean it needs to be on the to do list to begin with.

B (47:26)

That's such a good point. So does it. Just because you can do it, does it need to be done to meet the standard that you want to put out into the world?

A (47:37)

Yeah. And an easy way to look at this, Yes. I think you should do yearly planning. I actually do it with all of my clients. They can come to Charlotte's included in their membership with me. But like they come to Charlotte, we spend two days together reflecting on their business and then working on their referral strategy for the next year. And that's great. And you, you should have some version of that in your own business from a, from a planning for the next year. And you're, you know, we, we call it reverse goal setting, plan five years out and work backwards. There's like all these things that I, that I do with my clients. But when you're trying to do it, particularly for a station master and you're trying to do it on more regular. There are four months out of the year where there's a fifth week in the month. So take every fifth week and make it a CEO week and don't allow. So if you do meetings like first and third Wednesdays. Well, there's no fifth Wednesday. It's first and third. Right. Like don't just add a fifth Wednesday just because it's the Wednesday's in the month. You're right. So like when you see like January is the first month of the year, that has this extra week and you just block it. And I will block mine a year in advance. Now, sometimes I'll break my own my own CEO week, and I may take a vacation that week because it's convenient and it works well and it falls in line with like spring break or something else happening. But most of the time it's looking at those four CEO weeks, the four months out of the year where there's a fifth week. No meetings, no podcast interviews, nothing. Right. Like you're not doing anything, but you're working on your business. And in some cases you're taking big projects that need a lot of time and attention and you're giving yourself the dedicated space to move them forward.

B (49:12)

That's such great advice.

A (49:14)

Thanks.

B (49:14)

Yeah.

A (49:16)

All right. I hope that you enjoyed that interview with Naomi. She's such a treat. Of course. I really want you to go take that Founders type assessment. It is fascinating and I never would have thought that actually who I am as a human actually informed how and why I built my business. But I'm super glad that I now know that. I'm like, oh, that's why I do the things I do. And I think you'll find out some unique and interesting things about yourself as well. So you can access the transcript how to connect with Naomi how to take for Founder Type assessment plus anything else that we mentioned on the episode on the Show Notes page for this episode, which is stacybrownrandall.com 399 thanks for making it to the end. Until next week, take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now. Sam.