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- [00:05]
A
Hey there. Do you love referrals but hate asking for them? Well, my friend, then you've come to the right place. This is the Roadmap to Referrals podcast and I'm your host, Stacey Brown Randall. Every week I break down why you don't have to ask, pay, be gimmicky or network all the time to generate referrals for your business. We take a science backed approach with our methodology frameworks and strategies. The goal is simple, to help you take control of your referrals on your terms. Do you ever think about the quality of the referrals you receive? You should and I bet you do. But there is something that comes first before worrying about quality. And I talk about it with my alumni client, Jackie Ho, an architect in the Bay Area. This conversation with Jackie is part of our Where Are They Now? Series where I invite my past clients, which we call alumni clients, back onto the podcast and of course let you hear them talk about the work they did with me and how they continue to implement that into their businesses successfully today. And there's something very, very important, a very important lesson that Jackie learned while working with me and it has to do with quality of referrals. And we're going to talk about it during our conversation. So I can't wait for you to hear us talk through what was Jackie's referral journey? What did it actually look like? So without further ado, let's dive in. Jackie, welcome back to the podcast. It's always fun for me to welcome back my clients and you are an alumni client now, but it's always fun to welcome back my clients, particularly when they have been on the podcast before. So we'll link to this in the show notes. You were on episode 142 and 161, and at the time of this recording, we are now well into the four hundreds. So. So it's been. It's been a minute. I should have had you back on sooner.
- [02:16]
B
Congratulations.
- [02:19]
A
I should have had you back on sooner. I did not. So shame on me. Well, I am so glad that you're here being a part of our Where Are They Now? Series as I talk to business owners about who've been on the referral journey with me and now graduated alumni client moving forward without me and kind of give perspective, which I think is great. I also want to mention that you are the Jackie that I talk about in my book and use as that example of your beautiful, fantastically designed, color coded, organized spreadsheet. And I'm not going to say anything Else. Other than that, people need to go read the book, the referral client experience to know exactly what we're talking about.
- [03:01]
B
I think I'm lucky in that, at least for the time I worked with you, you didn't have any other Jackies in the group. So it was. Anytime I heard my name, I was like, pretty sure that's me.
- [03:10]
A
Pretty sure she's talking about me. Yeah. Yes, Most definitely. Most definitely. Okay, so why don't you real quick because obviously there are some people that are listening to the podcast now that did not listen to Back into the Hunt when we were in the hundreds for this episode. Why don't you tell everyone a little bit about your business?
- [03:29]
B
Okay. Well, my partner and I founded and and built a practice. We are an architecture and design firm. We do architecture and interiors. Our focus is high end custom homes and we try to reach and help. Specifically, our clients are those who want a home that really reflects the way they live and everything about it is tailored to them and that can look like a new build, all the way down to a partial renovation. We've done it all and we are based in San Francisco, but we are actually taking projects all over the country. Keeps it interesting. And I forgot to mention, the name of the firm is Ho and Lisi Architecture.
- [04:14]
A
We will link to that in the show notes. Don't worry. So people can find it. And I just want to mention, because I don't always have the pleasure of interviewing folks while they're sitting outside, but you're in a new home that you guys have bought. You're about to. You're about to take your architecture genius to this home that you guys have purchased. And so I know you guys are like starting to live in construction land, so we have the pleasure of seeing your beautiful backyard. Let me just tell you, mine looks nothing like that. That looks so perfect and green.
- [04:42]
B
You know, I'll take it. I'll thank you. And you're right, it is fantastic. I love it. I'm very proud of it.
- [04:50]
A
So, yeah, that's awesome.
- [04:52]
B
And I'm very proud of this weather we're having with which, you know, that helps.
- [04:56]
A
That helps make everything better. Most definitely. Yeah. So that's all I think about. When you're preparing for graduation parties at your house, all you can think about is all the things that have to be done at the house, all the projects. Okay, all right, so let's. I know we could catch up forever, but let's dive in because there's a couple of things I want to make sure that we talk about as part of the where are they Now? Series. And this isn't going to be 100% referral focused. There's some other things I want us to talk about. Just because you've had the pleasure of working with me for so many years and seen some things shift and change in my own business, I think your perspective on that will be kind of cool. But let's first start with before you came across me, right before you met me. Now you came referred by another architect. You had seen me do a webinar within his community. And so shout out to Mark. We appreciate Mark always supporting. So you first heard about me in like 2020. So also a crazy time for the country or for the world, I guess I should say. But when you made the decision to start working with me in 2020, why at that time were you thinking about, hey, I need to improve my referrals and why was that so important to your business?
- [06:10]
B
Great question. So even from the get go, when we decided to make a go of this, our business has always been and continues to be, like I always say, 99% referral based. Right. There's always the 1% rogue that we don't know how they come to us, but otherwise everybody comes to us via referral. And it was like that even before I met you. Right. It just, I had no control over it. It was a completely passive process. Right. I didn't even think about it as a process. I thought about it as just a phenomenon of the universe that if we're lucky, some days it'll rain, some days it won't. And it wasn't until I heard those three magic words on that podcast episode, which was referrals without asking, that I immediately zeroed in. I, like, stopped the podcast, looked you up. Like all the things. Listen to the podcast, like, read your book. Like, I just. I'm like a dog with a bone like that. I was like, I need to learn how to do this because I hate asking and I don't want to ask, but I need more referrals. So tell me more. Yeah, so that was. I always knew, you know, leaning into referrals and making. Educating myself more about it. But also, like, how do I get more of this in a way that doesn't feel sleazy, disgusting, feels in keeping with our values was super important. And that's everything you provided.
- [07:30]
A
Yeah. You know, it's funny, it's. They, they do say you can make a business out of doing something that worked for you and that you love and that's truly why people know this. Like, truly why I created my, like the, My methodologies and my frameworks and my strategies and the whole process is because I didn't want to ask, but I still wanted referrals. And so obviously it was something that I was able to make a business out of, which is great. And it resonates. Right. Just like it did with you. Like, it resonated with so many people. I just had somebody new join the brb, the building a referable business coaching program. And he had. I don't now my older brain is going to. Is going to flow. Not going to exactly remember how he heard about me, but he said he was like. Once he, like, zeroed in on the. He did the same thing. He was like, I watched all the YouTube videos. I started following you on LinkedIn. Like, I was like, absorbing all your information, and I was like, yes, this is how I want to learn referrals. This is how I want to do referrals as well, which I think is so important. So you've kind of already answered my next question in terms of relevance. Right? Referrals were as relevant for you when you started the firm and for the years that you ran the firm before you started working for me. But did anything shift or change in terms of the relevance you saw in referrals once you started working with me way back then in 2020?
- [08:50]
B
The relevance to my business? Yeah, I mean, I think it only gets more important with time early on, you know, when we're kind of saying yes to lots of things and we're experimenting a lot. Right. Like every business owner does in the beginning. And you're. You're just trying to say yes and try on different people as clients, but also different methodologies. I'm grateful. Not, you know, like, I'm grateful not all my referral sources saw us back then because, you know, we had to make a lot of mistakes to figure out the. To work the kinks out. But it's only become more important with time. Like, every year, it's more important than the last. Right. Like, it's the foundation of our whole business. And we're, you know, thanks to you. Like, I'm so proud of the kind of network of people who trust us that we've built and nurtured over the years that we continue to grow. Not as quickly in those initial months, which I'm sure you'll get to. But, I mean, let's face it, the work we do, trust is everything. There is nothing. I don't believe Personally, I'm not going to do this, but I don't believe there's an ad I could pay for out there that would be able to communicate and convey and bestow the level of trust that is required for someone to think about trusting someone like me with one of the most expensive, most important investments of their life, not to mention the two, three years it sometimes takes.
- [10:19]
A
Right.
- [10:20]
B
So that is not a small investment of time, energy, or emotion.
- [10:24]
A
Right.
- [10:24]
B
And referrals, I have found, is. Is core to being able to share that trust.
- [10:32]
A
Yeah, I think that's really important. Okay, so I want to ask you some questions. Let's go slightly off topic from referrals, but still, like, adjacent to the whole referral conversation before we loop back around to talk about what the last six years has actually looked like for you. But I want to give some context to how you worked with me, because I think that's important as people are hearing us talk about, like, your journey with referrals and everything. But then I have a specific question that I want to ask you about working with me from the perspective of watching my business change over the last six years. So you first joined one of my, like, back in the day when I used to offer it like this. If anyone's listening today, I don't offer it like this anymore. So it's not like this way exists anymore. But I used to offer my, like, signature strategy as. As like a standalone online program that people could come into and just be like, hey, I just want to learn this one main foundational strategy. And they could buy, like, an online program to do that. And so you did that with our online program, which called gbr, which is Growth by Referrals, but you know all the acronyms for all the names of all the programs.
- [11:37]
B
So it is forever ingrained.
- [11:39]
A
Forever ingrained. That's right. So that was gdr Growth by Referrals. It's the strategy where you learn to generate more referrals from the people who already refer you. It's the strategy that the first book is based on. It's the strategy that almost not every single one, but a lot of my clients start with, because it's where we can get the biggest ROI and increase in referral referrals. And so you started with that one, but as like a standalone, just buying this online course. And then in 2021, you moved into our inner circle, which is kind of like the. The maintenance program. Right. Of like, hey, I'm done with my one year in the program or whatever. I want to move to, like, the next thing, to kind of keep. Keep getting access to Stacy and getting other trainings and stuff at that time, way back in the day, we called it the inner circle. And then I started in 2021, going through some business structure changes and shifts. Like the model of my business, of how I worked with my clients started to shift and change. And I had started doing online programs in 2015. So when you came into it in 2020, I've been doing it for five years. So it may have been like, wow, I just started in this program, and a year later, she's making major shifts. But for me, I have been doing it for five years, and I. I have whole episodes, and we'll link to them in the show notes. I have whole episodes about why my business model shifted and changed. Like, what I learned and why I wanted to change. But, you know, you moved into. From the inner circle. You moved into brb, the coaching program, the referrals coaching program. You did that for a year, and then you just kind of were able to stay in the maintenance program. That kind of follows you after the coaching program for a couple of years. We now call that Referral Masters. I think back in the day, we just called it the maintenance program. Like, not a very fancy firm at all. So now we call it referral Masters. And you were in that from about 2023 to about 2025. So. And you graduated was very sad. It was a very sad day for me. Very good day for you, because you were ready to spread your wings. But you graduated in 2025. And that's not to say for anyone listening, I have to work with SA for five years. It's just. It's just how your journey unfolded, because you went from that online course to the inner circle. You did some of the other things. Like, you. Do you remember the Goal Finishers Club, like, way back in.
- [13:55]
B
Vague bell.
- [13:56]
A
Yeah.
- [13:57]
B
Right.
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A
Like, I have, like, that thing. I, like, retired it in 2021, so. So my business went through some shifts, and you were a client, like, just kind of going along, like, okay, this is the shift, and this is what we're gonna do. And that means you also continued to make investments. Right. In my business as you were learning what I had to to teach. And you were watching these business structures and these, like, how I worked with clients and my program and my models and, like, the model of my business, the structure of my business shift and change in terms of the delivery to my clients. So I'm just curious, from a client's perspective, what did Those shifts look like to you as I was making them inside my business.
- [14:36]
B
I mean, honestly, I don't know if this is how it felt for you, but it looked like nothing was left unturned. Everything went off without a hitch. It was smooth, it was calculated. It was like, I've never known you, Stacy, in the many years since we've known each other, to ever be unprepared, even if I'm just, like, texting you out of the blue. Like, you are always 100 prepared for any situation. And the business shift was the same way. Like, I'm sure in the background, you put a lot of time and effort and so much work into it. I'm sure, because what you pulled off was amazing. But for me, it was just. I never doubted, like, you have always been so consistent, and your teachings have always been so consistent, and the threads have always consistently flowed through. Right. None of that has ever changed. The branding sometimes changes. Maybe there's new names, maybe there's new formatting, maybe there's new structure, and the groups of people come and go, but the learnings are never, have never deviated from day one. Right? Like, the messaging is still there. I don't remember when I started trusting you, Stacy, but it was long before we actually ever spoke. And you just have this way of, like, I just. I just trusted you. I always knew the system would work. You're so good at communicating it. It was just a matter of when was I going to be ready to dive in. And then through all that change, I was like, oh, Stacy's got this. I'm not worried. Let's just see what she's got in store. And, like, you just made it so easy for me to say yes to the next step thing that I was like, I'm getting in on the ground floor. Why wouldn't I say yes to this? Like, they just. There was never a doubt in my mind. Like, I don't know about this. Like, never. I was like, if anything, I really respected it because I was like, here is this woman. She is leveling up her own business. She is going through this thing. It's a risk. It's, like, maybe uncomfortable for some people. I'm sure it's uncomfortable for you. But you did it. And, like, I think it paid off. And honestly, I'm so impressed with the results. It worked great for me. I was getting more of what I needed and wanted as a result. And you, I mean, very honestly, you were kind of a role model for me because I'm always thinking about, like, how in my business do I each year do more for fewer clients? Right. Is to, like, go deeper, go broader with each person, rather than trying to spread our team too thin.
- [17:01]
A
Right.
- [17:01]
B
Like in the early days where we're taking on just so many smaller projects that we can't go deeper with each client. But now that's kind of one of our north stars. Right. And it felt like a move like that that you were making in terms of just being able to offer more to the people who really benefited from this. And that's what I felt.
- [17:21]
A
Yeah. You know, it's interesting because it was like, a lot of what you explain is exactly kind of like how the thought process was happening behind the scenes when I had. And I wouldn't say it was an epiphany. Like, I got hit over the head with, like, oh, yeah. But it was like all these things I kept seeing, and I was like, there's a shift. I need a shift. There's something happening. And then I was watching people doing it, and I was like. And I had a really great conversation with one of my mentors. They were like, you got to find your sweet spot. And what you said was a key piece of that sweet spot, which is you were getting more of me, which is what an online program was never going to give you. Right. And I knew that. And the clients that were having more success were operating with me and working with me in a different level than an online program. And I was like, why would I have just people in an online program and then other people over here that are getting access to me? That's what I want to offer. I only want people that want access to me because I know that's where the real results happen. So I have had a podcast episode where I talk about, like, finding that sweet spot of how I made all the shifts in my business. And I realized upon reflection, and this is. I've seen myself do this over and over again. That's why I recognize the pattern is that I first start with, why doesn't it feel right? Like, what's not working? I first start with the I can feel something needs to show. I'm kind of like, just spoiler alert. It's 2026. I'm kind of going through this again. Very like, we should have, like, a drum roll, but not any spoiler alert, because I don't know what that means yet. There are some things that I'm like and nothing like. To your point, the thread of what I teach, how I teach it, has never changed, and that has Been the thing that people can sink their trust into. It just maybe the delivery model looks different, but I noticed that I do this a lot. And this may be helpful for other people to consider is that at first there's an always an ah, it's like uncomfortable. Or something doesn't fit right within the business. There's something that I know I'm missing or. Or I've known this is actually I've known for a while. And I need to get off my high knee and do it right. But it was also then finding. So that's how it starts. And then it was figuring out the other thing that helps me. And I really love how you spoke to this because I've never asked you this question before. So I was really enjoying your answer. Because the other thing that I really pay attention to is. And you said it specifically when you said the thread was there and I was just following along and it felt like this was how it was supposed to be. Is because every time I make a shift in my business, and I know people say this is the wrong way to do this, but for me, it works. I say, how would I explain this to my clients? How would I explain this shift to my clients, to my existing clients? I'm about to shift how you interact with me. How would I explain it to them? And I find myself thinking through how to make it right for them. And then that informs all the shifts and changes that I actually make. Sometimes it means I go slower than I want to. Sometimes it means I go faster. Sometimes it means I grandfather people in. Like, all the decisions that are made are like, how would I explain this to Jackie? How would I explain this to Adam? Right? Like, how would I explain this? And I think about that, and the messaging that comes in that moment for me is a lot of the messaging you then saw of how I would explain the shift and what's happening. But it comes from that place. And I think when you build a business and you're making changes to it and you're thinking, how am I going to do this for myself? To make it work for me? Because it doesn't work for me. What is the point? But also honor and respect and work for my clients, then that last piece is just like, okay, now how do I explain it in a way that makes sense? And so I always usually start from the how do I explain it? And kind of work back into what people ultimately see? So thank you for indulging me.
- [20:58]
B
No, I love what you just said about the explaining part because I've Learned that from you over the years because, spoiler alert, I have had to call Stacy on more than five occasions. Well, we're not keeping count, but no one's keeping count. I'm like, I have a little emergency. Do you have five minutes to chat? Because I don't know what to do. And state poor Stacy will just drop everything and take my call. And honestly, every single time you took, you talk me down from a ledge. Like, you bring my blood pressure down. You always have spot on advice, like, yeah, you know what you're doing.
- [21:34]
A
Yeah, well, thank you. I mean, I think I should have been doing this for 13 years and hopefully a few more decades. But yes, thank you, I appreciate that. You know, the thing about it is, is that that outside perspective is always going to be valuable as a business owner. Like, it's. I think you've actually said this in other podcast interviews that we've done, or at least conversations that you and I have had. Like, it's lonely being a business owner and yes, you have a, you know, you have a partner in your business, but still, like, it's still lonely, like doing the business thing. And particularly when you're not trying to grow a team of 15. Right. But even then, if you are trying to grow a larger team, like, you're still the business owner, you're still still the person technically at the top of the mountain, kind of up there by yourself. And so it's always important, I think, to have those folks that you can be like, am I looking at this right, or have I lost it? I think that's, that's important.
- [22:24]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's very true. And more even in addition to the loneliness, I think it leads to what you were hinting at, which is the self doubt is really can really get you. And the thing about being an entrepreneur, right, no matter you've been in one year or 10, like, it always creeps up on you and it's just a matter of like finding your confidence again and remembering, like, okay, I can trust that I know how to get out of this. Right? But yeah, when you're all alone, it can, you can, you can play tricks on yourself.
- [22:57]
A
Yeah, that's so true. Okay, so one of the things I want to make sure that we talk about when we talk about referrals for you is something that I've always been so proud of watching you do. So let me set the stage for context for folks. So when you first started working with me, like, and people can see this if they look on like the testimonial stuff on the website and things like that. You'll see Jackie's testimonial. But, like, one of the big markers that you had when you started working with me and going through my strategies was going from 15 referrals on average, to 55 in a year, which is incredible and amazing. And we love those big numbers. And we love that. And so you had, as you were getting started, you, like, basically put the things you were learning into place and then were able to see the results happen. Prove it to yourself that, yes, I can do this. I can get referrals without asking. Look, I went from 15 to 55. And then you went through a shift, which is key, and it's a key that I want all my clients to go through. Then it became less about the number and more about the quality. So then it was 55. Referrals are great, but not if I'm not. If I'm, like, passing away or, like, saying no to, like, you know, 35 of them. Right. Like, so it's one thing to be able to, like, I can generate referrals. I can learn these processes from Stacy, these plans, the strategies, the tactics, the language. I can learn these things. I can put them into place, and I can have success. This is something I can do. Then you kind of level up, and you're like, okay, now let's focus on the quality of those referrals. So I remember a conversation we had. We were like, all right, I want to get more laser focused on the types of referrals I'm receiving, which is the next iteration. Always. That's where everybody should head second. Right? And I really say that. I always say quantity first, then quality. I know it sounds backwards. It only works that way in referrals, in my opinion. And then you got really laser focused on quality, which meant you had to, like, shed some of your relationships and some of your referral sources, and you had to get really clear on exactly the type of client that you wanted referred to. What was that process like for you?
- [25:03]
B
Well, it did involve some discomfort, I'll say. It wasn't easy. That part was trickier. You're right. The. In hindsight, the quantity part feels a lot easier because you. The roadmap is so clear. I mean, the roadmap's clear. Your roadmap is always clear. But I didn't believe it until I. Or didn't understand it until I got there when you told me, like, okay, now you've got the quantity. Now this part's a little trickier, and it Was a little tricky, but you always had the right guidance, you know, down to like sometimes proofreading each emails for me a couple times, you know, like, it was. We got so granular with how the rollout would look and work that I. It was kind of like holding my nose and just knowing, I know this is good for me. I just have to, like, swallow the pill because it's not going to feel always that great. But there's a way to do it where I can be in my integrity about what I'm doing and how I'm explaining this to the people in my network and how I'm helping people and just always be focusing on, like, the end result. And the goal is to be able to help the people I'm meant to help.
- [26:14]
A
Right.
- [26:14]
B
And not wasting anybody's time who I can't help, including my own. And honoring my own time means I have to learn how to have these conversations. And now I don't even think about it. It's just second nature. But it took practice.
- [26:28]
A
Yeah.
- [26:30]
B
But it. Yeah, you do a few things a few times, surprisingly, then you just kind of have a muscle for it. Yeah.
- [26:36]
A
You get good at it and it becomes second nature. And then it's not even you worrying about you being good at it. It's like you don't think about a time when you really didn't do it unless if you stop and think. Like, I used to not know how to have this conversation and now I can have it with my eyes closed.
- [26:49]
B
That's right.
- [26:50]
A
Yeah. Which is really so cool. Yeah. Which is so cool. Right. Which is awesome. Okay. And it's. For me, it's one of those things, is I know that something I taught you that lives on Right. In your business. We're not working together anymore in any type of formal capacity. And I know that there are things that you have learned to do and that have talked through and walked through that you're still doing and you will continue to do. Right. Forever and ever as long as you so decide. And that's like a real honor for me to know that, hey, what I'm teaching you, if you keep it going, has the potential to live on forever, which is great. But there's something else I want to make sure that we talk about before we run out of time. And that is this whole concept that when you were starting to receive referrals and you have great, fabulous, wonderful success, like you had 15 to 55 referrals in that. In that year, which is amazing. And we want that. It's not like an explosion every single year, building on the explosion from the year before. Now people will see me show results. Like, if they see me show, like, Amanda's results or even Catherine's results, they'll see like, well, the bar chart keeps doing this with a couple of dips, which is awesome for them. Right. But for others, it's going to do a little bit more like this and then it's going to level out before it takes back off. And there are things that impact that. Right? I mean, there are things that impact that, whether it's in the marketplace, whether it's in your industry, whether it's in your geographical area, whether it's what's happening in the economy, whether it's what's happening in the world. Like, referrals aren't immune to the shifts and changes of what's happening around us. So it's not like we're looking at an explosion year over year that there are highs and lows, there are ebbs and flows. And so over your six plus years of generating referrals, since we started working together, like, what have been some of the things that you've learned from that perspective?
- [28:36]
B
Well, number one, as Stacy says, don't fall off your calendar because it'll get me in trouble if I. If I'm delinquent on the calendar. Generally, I feel it six to 12 months later. But the good news is it's not hard. Every time I fall back, it's easier to get back on. Like, all is not lost. If I suddenly have a cheat quarter, like, not a cheat day, not a cheat week, a cheat quarter. And you've seen me do that. Yeah, it's just about finding, like you said, you, you ride the roller coaster up. You can, you can get the numbers you need, then it has to take a dip so that you're honing that. And for me, like, I didn't need to shoot back up ever. Like, for me in the business I want to build, it's. It's always been kind of like, I just need to be here. Like, as long as I'm getting here. It's more about if I. If I can close 80% of referrals and I get 5 a year that are clients. Like, I'm not. I don't know, maybe next year. Yeah, next year, that would be great. That's. That's all I'm looking for. I'm not looking for however many just to be able to close 25%. Right. It's about that closure rate. And I think it gets that gets easier over time too.
- [29:47]
A
Yes.
- [29:47]
B
Just practicing how to. Like now I go into meetings with people I've never met and whether or not it's a prospective client really doesn't matter if I'm ever talking about my business. And this comes from you in the training. The reflex is just like, how can I the most clearly and kindly communicate what it is I do and who I'm for? So that from the get go, before any questions are asked, people know who I'm not for. Right. They self filter.
- [30:14]
A
I think that's really important. And that's, I would say that has absolutely nothing really to do with referrals though. It does, but in everything to do with you being.
- [30:22]
B
I didn't ask your question.
- [30:24]
A
No, you did. No, the whole, just that last thing you said about like the who I'm for, like, I think being clear on who your ideal client is is like a baseline of being in business. Right. But here's the thing, we experiment and we all do it so much in the early years that we kind of get fuzzy on who our ideal client is. And so for you, it's even like. And I think that's whether you're talking to a prospect, you're at a networking event, somebody asks you what you do. Yeah, it's like loosely tied to referral. Of course, when you're like, when referral services are understanding who you are and what it's. It is important. I don't mean to be dismissive of it not being important, but like, I think that's so important for people to recognize that it's like getting to the place of who is your ideal client and then going through what you went through. Then you changed who that ideal client was, then you changed that. You like leveled up with the type of client you were working with, but you wanted more of that and less of others. And that's another shift, right? That's another shift that your business went through. And that meant the need for referrals. The quantity in terms of the number of referrals dropped, but the quality became more important. Particularly wanting to aim for and hit an 80%. Right? So if you're working with clients, like, I'm going to make up some random numbers that are not even in the realm of architecture. You're gonna be like, nobody pays an architect that. But let's just do some easy math. So I don't like totally like mess up the math here, right. But if you're working with clients that pay you five grand a year to do whatever project it Is right. Like, you need a lot of those if you're trying to make $500,000 a year. But if you're working with clients that are like paying you a hundred thousand dollars a year or for the project, maybe a year is not the right way to look at it because you guys and your zoning policies can take years and years right out there in San Francisco. But from that perspective, if you, if you're the client, you up level. And I'm not saying you go from five to a hundred thousand type clients overnight. Right. But if you go from that 5 to $10,000 to $100,000, the number of clients drops drastically if you're trying to hit half a million or a million in revenue. And when you make that shift, you get to make a lot of changes. But to your point, it, I mean, it comes back around, obviously, from a referral perspective of being able to, to articulate that to whomever is important, because if not, we have a lot of conversations. That wastes a lot of time.
- [32:49]
B
Yeah, yeah. I don't have time to spare anymore. I mean, those numbers I hit early on with you. That was because I had time.
- [32:56]
A
Yes.
- [32:56]
B
I didn't have as many projects at the time. I was scheduling coffees up the wazoo and I saw dividends from that. But, yeah, I mean, it takes work. Right?
- [33:05]
A
Right.
- [33:05]
B
Like you always say, like, it's not just the learning. You got to. You, you got to put the work in.
- [33:10]
A
You got to.
- [33:10]
B
So the referrals only come if you do the work.
- [33:13]
A
So true. I mean, we're going to take that. And like, I wish I could, like, tattoo that on everybody. Like, I just find, like. And I find this every year, but I feel like this year and last year, it's even worse. It's like everyone's looking for the shortcut or the easy button or magic bullet or like the one secret pill. And I'm like, none of that exists with referrals because we're not manipulating an algorithm. We are cultivating relationships, and those are humans on the other end. And it will always look different, but to your point, it will pay dividends year after year after year. Okay, So I want you. Let me just ask, as we wrap up this last question, imagine that you were talking to another architect. Right? My future son. Just kidding. Because I know he's studying architecture in college. You don't have to convince him to work with me. We've got bigger problems if that's the case. Right, but if you were talking to another architect or just another business Owner and they really wanted to be where you are with your referral generation and what that looks like. And they wanted to be able to look back on years of success with a referral generation. What would you say to them if they were sitting on the fence about why they should just say yes and decide to work with me?
- [34:18]
B
I mean, I probably going to repeat myself a bit. I don't remember what I said last time, but I try to recommend you as often as I possibly can to all kinds of business owners. And what I usually say is if you're ready to do the work, like if the one thing that is driving you nuts and keeping you up at night as a business owner is like, I just need to get a get in touch with, like connect with. I don't know, I'm ready to meet them where they are. I just don't know where they are and how to reach them. Like, I was like, that was my big head scratcher. It felt like I had a handle on all the pieces otherwise. And I at least had other roadmaps for how to get there. Right. Like, everyone knows how to get your taxes filed, right? Like, I can figure that out. I can figure this out. I figure that out, figure out marketing even to some extent. But the how to unlock referrals was a complete question mark to me. And if you're like that, then just try it. Like, I don't know what your guarantees are these days or warranties and stuff, but you've nothing to lose by just trying it because the ROI is there. If you're willing to do the hard work, it's not going to happen for you, but this will give you the roadmap.
- [35:28]
A
Awesome. Thank you. I really appreciate that and I appreciate the time that we spend together. Like, I learned some things about my business, so I appreciate that as well. So thank you. Thank you always for spending the time with me, for being a client for as many years as you were, for trusting me. I'm so glad that Mark got you on the path to working with me. So thank you and thank you for being a part of our Where Are they now? Series. I have loved catching up.
- [35:54]
B
Happy to anytime for you, Stacy.
- [35:57]
A
I really appreciate the time that Jackie took to be here with me and interview so that we could have this conversation to share with you and that you could understand and listen through her perspective of what it was like learning about referrals, generating so many referrals and then really after that realizing she could do it, narrowing in on what quality meant for her and how that informed the growing of her business of her architecture firm moving forward. So if you are looking for how to connect with Jackie or the links mentioned, or of course the transcripts for this episode, the links are below the video right down there. Or if you're listening on the podcast, the Show Notes page for this episode is staceybrownrandall.com416 Remember, if you want more referrals this year, there's just one first tiny step you need to take, and you should take it right now to help you get a better grasp on your referral reality and understand what's possible. To do that that tiny step, all you have to do is complete our Referral reality application@staceybrownrandall.com ref application there's no obligation after completing the application to work with me, but it will give you greater clarity on where you are now and where you could go with referral growth. Thanks for making it to the end. Until next week, take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now. Sam.