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- [00:05]
A
Hey there. Do you love referrals but hate asking for them? Well then you've come to the right place. This is the Roadmap to Referrals podcast and I'm your host, Stacy Brown Randall. Every week I break down why you don't have to ask, pay, be gimmicky or network all the time to generate referrals for your business. We take a science backed approach with our methodology, frameworks and strategies. The goal is simple to help you take control of your referrals on your terms.
- [00:40]
B
Hey there. I'm Shaunalyn Simon, host of the Real Women Real Business podcast and I am so excited to be taking over the Roadmap to Referrals podcast to share my conversation with Stacy Brown Randall. On my show, I work with what I like to affectionately call my accidental CEOs. These are women who built successful businesses through talent, instinct and a whole lot of figuring it out as they went and are now ready for more strategy, more structure and sustainability. In this episode, Stacy and I talk about how referrals are not about awkward asks, gimmicks, or constantly chasing new people. They're about relationships, trust, and being intentional with the people who already believe in your work. One of my favorite takeaways was the simple but powerful reminder to start by identifying who is already referring. You then simply take better care of those relationships. Enjoy our conversation. Hello and welcome to the Real Women Real Business podcast. Today I am super excited to welcome our guest Stacey Brown Randall to the podcast. She is a multi award winning author of Generating Business Referrals Without Asking as well as the upcoming book the Referable Client Experience which is set to release in October of 2025. She's also the host of one of my favorite podcasts, the Roadma to Referrals podcast. And one of the things that I think makes Stacy especially unique is her contrarian approach to referrals because she teaches business owners how to generate these naturally, without manipulating, without incentivizing, without even asking. And her work has been featured in major publications like Entrepreneur Magazine, Forbes and Investor Business Daily. And so I want to just explain a little bit about how I originally met Stacy because we actually collaborated as co authors on a book with Luanne Nygara, who's also been featured on this podcast. And I will be honest, when I first learned that her whole premise to everything that she does is all about referrals, I was a little skeptical. Like how on earth are you building an entire business around referral strategies? That sounds like a portion of your business plan. And she makes it basically your whole world. And you'll see why when we get to talking about this and after, you know, listening to her speak about it, seeing the results that her clients have achieved, I gotta say, like, I am absolutely 100% a true believer. So. Stacy holds a master's in organizational communication. She's helped thousands of business owners double, triple, and even quadruple their referral revenue. And today we're going to dive deep into her methodology and how busy female entrepreneurs can build sustainable referral systems without the awkward sales tactics that we all hate. So, Stacy, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [03:28]
A
Oh, gosh, it's my pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.
- [03:32]
B
I seriously, when we first connected on that book, I'm not, I'm not kidding when I say that, Like, I'm sure probably when I met you, I was like, oh, this sounds fantastic. In my head, I was like, I don't understand how this is the whole strategy, like, legitimately. I mean, talk about niching down like, this is as niche as it gets. So what made you realize that this was such a crucial missing piece for most business owners?
- [03:57]
A
Well, first, thanks for saying, like, recognizing that it's actually the subject matter is. Is my niche, right? Is the niche is like it's the subject matter. I mean, I do actually only I have some industries I work in and some that I don't work in because of how my strategies work. But I always like to say to people when you want to talk to me about business and things like that, I'm an, I'm an inch wide, but I go a few hundred thousand miles deep. And it is on that one topic about referrals and really understanding that all the things we're taught about referrals don't have to be true. You don't have to ask, you don't have to compensate. You don't have to network every single day so people never forget you. You know, you don't have to send, like, gimmicky things out in the mail or put in your email signature. Oh, the greatest compliment you can give me as a referral, like, you don't have. Those don't have to be true. We've been told for generations they're true, but they don't have to be true. So there is another way to do referrals, to generate referrals. So, you know, when I started this business, it was like I needed it for myself. I had overcome a business failure. I was starting again with this. My second business didn't want to be a Two time member of the business failure club doesn't need any more members. It has lots of people in it. And I think the statistic is like 85% of all small businesses will fail before they hit year five. I am one of them. I was at year four. My business failed my first business. So when I started this business, I was like, I got to figure this out. I got to grow this business. And business development like it, love it, loathe it, leave it, it doesn't matter. You have to do it. Like, you have to have a strategy to bring in clients. And so for me, it was like, okay, well, let's find a way that I'm willing to do it. Because when my second business started, I was like, we need to, this one really needs to be successful. And I'm glad to say it's 12 years now. That was 12 years ago when I started this business. But yeah, it's just, it's been really interesting of like, my ability to recognize referrals, figure out what really makes them happen. And I know we'll talk about this because it's all about the science. And several. And then for me, I was like, yes, this is what business owners need. This is what no one's teaching them or telling them. And you know, they say, as a marketing strategy or as a business development strategy, find your blue ocean. And for me, this was my blue ocean. It's referrals is a very red ocean. There's a lot of people who teach referrals and a lot of the same generic tactics are taught. And for me, it was like, no, I'm just going to go over here and I'm going to teach you how to get it without doing the things you hate. And I mean, it didn't matter if it didn't work. Once it worked, I was like, okay, I'm onto something. And I built a business around it.
- [06:32]
B
And I think that's exactly what's key, because it does kind of sound too good to be true. But I, I know that it works. I've listened to the success stories that you share on your podcast about your clients and, and I've practiced them myself. And I think that, you know, in a day and age where it's so easy for us to hide behind our computer and say, I'm doing everything, but things aren't working. Are you doing everything or are you just posting every social media and hoping that something finally clicks with someone or that something goes viral? And I'll be honest, I've had a couple of videos Go viral. They did not bring me in any more business.
- [07:05]
A
I, I literally tell my assistant Kathy, she's amazing. She's my right hand and she really does like, excel at the social media stuff and the video editing and all that kind of stuff. So she's amazing. But I always like to say to her, like, remember, I don't make money on social media. Like, as much as we need to do things, I'm not making money there.
- [07:23]
B
So, yeah, yeah, you might bring in some leads, get some people into your orbit. And yes, there's absolutely value to that. They may eventually turn into clients, but the, the cost of acquisition for that client can be pretty high, especially if you're doing ads and especially if you don't have a real sales funnel set up for them. If it's just like, oh, cool, I captured a follower, great, now what do you do with them? Yeah, so I think, you know, talking about the whole, like, without asking, without incentivizing, without manipulating, like, it does sound too good to be true. So can you kind of break down? I don't want you to give away all your secrets, of course, but, you know, kind of break down. Like what is naturally actually mean in real practice?
- [08:05]
A
Yeah. So I do always like to say generating referrals naturally doesn't mean no work. Sure. I want to be like, really clear. Like, you're not asking, you're not manipulating, you're not taking advantage of reciprocity, you're not compensating, you're not paying, you're not going to be gimmicky, you're not going to network all the time. But that doesn't mean you're doing nothing like in it replace of that. So I always feel like that, like the little disclaimer I want to put out there. When you understand the science behind referrals, there's like a few key things I always tell folks you have to like, wrap your head around for. Then when you hear me say don't ask, you're like, yeah, why would I? Because violates the science. Right. Or when I say, like, don't compensate, you're like, yeah, because that commoditizes my relationships. Or when I say, don't feel like you have to network and be seen and be known, you're like, yeah, because the science says, right, based on behavioral economics, that it's, it's not about the repetition of someone remembering me, it's about how well I'm connected with them, that they're going to remember me and the relationship we have. And I can do less stuff and have a tighter relationship, then see them every week at my, you know, monthly leads meeting. So when you understand like where referrals fit in your overall sales strategy and then the science behind it, everything I say, like, don't ask, don't pay, you're like, you got it. Until you understand those two pieces, what you think John Lynn is yes, exactly. You're like, yeah, right, like too good to be true. Because those are the pieces that aren't like connecting. So when I tell people where referrals fit and their sales strategy, most of us are taught, if you go through any sales training, we're taught that sales strategy is a two legged stool. We've got prospecting and we've got marketing and you should do both and both are good. I don't, I, I do both. Every business probably does both. Right. The problem with that though is that then people say, well, referrals has to fit in either leg. It's got to fit in my, my prospecting activities, the networking, right? The seven million cups of coffee, the joining different leads groups, the cold calling, the cold emailing, the cold direct messaging, right? Like it's got to fit into. If referrals have to fit into prospecting, well then it makes sense that the tactics are taught based on the mindset and the messaging of prospecting activities that you're going to be told to ask or pay or do a bunch of networking. If you believe that referrals don't fit in prospecting, but they fit in the other leg of the stool marketing, well then now we're talking about being gimmicky and promotional and putting your email signature, the greatest compliment you can give me as a referral because you feel like it's an activity. Referrals are an activity within your marketing, which is also your website and your social media and your thought leadership and your earned pr, right? And maybe sponsorships, like, because if you're taught that sales is two legs, prospecting, marketing, pick which one you want referrals to go into. It drives the tactics that have been around for generations. The problem with that is it's not where referrals fit. Referrals are not part of prospecting, they're not part of marketing. And your sales strategy is not a two legged stool, it's a three legged stool. And the third leg is referrals because everything's different. When you put a post out there on social media, you're hoping a prospect will see it, like it, comment and then give you a bunch of money. Like, let Me hire you? Right. Or when you go to that networking event, you're hoping that you sit at that table with somebody who was like, I have been needing to hire you. I just didn't know you, like, let me give you a bunch of money. Like, I mean, that's not.
- [11:35]
B
That happened. Sure. Sometimes what. Not quite the here's a bag of money. But you know, for the most part, yes, it can certainly happen. But it's so much left to chance.
- [11:43]
A
So much left to chance. And it's the idea there that if that's what you're after, it's that faster mentality. It's a, let's make it happen, let's get me fastest as I can to the prospect. The problem with that though is when it's referrals, you don't know who the prospect is, right? With referrals, all you know is who the referral source is. The person who knows the prospect and knows they have a problem and knows they need you. And so all the marketing, not marketing, excuse me, all the messaging, right, all of the conversational points, all the relationship building, everything you do, the work to generate referrals is based on the who you're delivering it to. And in this case, it's not prospecting and marketing. So it's not the prospect, it's the referral source. You don't need to sell to your referral sources, but you do need to build relationships with your referral sources. And so there instantly you can see how. Oh yeah, so when I send an email out and it's like promoting my latest thing that I'm pitching, right? Like, I don't need my referral sources to get that. I don't need to be selling to them. I need to be nurturing a relationship with them, right? And I mean, if they get your newsletter, fine, but like, that's not how you're cultivating that relationship. So when you want referrals, the focus is on who's on the receiving end of what you're doing. And it's not the prospect. So you're not selling, it's a referral source who knows the prospect. And so you're building relationships. And that coupled with the science behind referrals changes everything about then how you're going to show up to generate referrals.
- [13:17]
B
And I think that's just like, as you're talking, I can just see how probably everyone listening to this is sort of reframing it in their whole, in their own minds. Because like you said, everything that we've been Taught is essentially wrong. And I can remember when I was operating my home staging business, we would get just these glowing testimonials and we would sometimes get pushback, for example, on our price. We were not the cheapest stager in town. In fact, we were definitely at the higher end of the scale. And so there's times where we definitely get pushback on our price. So and so is only charging this much. And of course, you know, we're focusing on this is our value, yada yada. And we could usually convert people nonetheless with our, with our conversations in terms of our value and such. But I remember saying like in if only people could experience what we do firsthand. Like once they experience it, they're singing our praises. But how do we get them to understand that experience without having experienced it? And it's one thing for me to say it, it's another thing for someone else to say it. And that's when I started realizing how important, yes, the testimonials and the Google reviews absolutely were. But in addition to that, how important it was to get those referrals, referral sources. And I wouldn't say that I ever had a referral strategy. I was very fortunate that apparently whatever I was doing worked. But if I were to dissect it, I'll admit that there are times where I'm like, I don't actually know what I did that worked. But I can tell you that people would call our company and for the most part we worked with real estate agents and real estate agents would refer other real estate agents. And here is how the referral usually went. Someone would call us and they would say so and so told me that you're the best stager in town and that I should just book you, that you're not the cheapest, but that I should just go ahead with it. So when can I book you in? So my sales have essentially been done for me. It doesn't mean I don't still have a bit of an uphill road. Like I still have things, they still have to meet us, they still have to be on board with things, but they're already pre sold on understanding. Like, listen, if you're looking for cheap, this is not the company to go to. You want the best, this is the company to go to. That right there did so much of the heavy lifting for us that we can't, we can tell them that all we want. But of course, who's going to believe us? That we're just, we're saying that we're the best and that they should just pay our rates doesn't necessarily mean they're
- [15:30]
A
gonna be like, okay, oh, sure, let me do that right now.
- [15:33]
B
Here's a big bag of money again. So it was incredible to build that. Like I said, I would love to say that I understand the science behind it, that I understand all these things. I don't. I think that's why I'm so intrigued by what you. You do. Because I'm thinking if I could dissect that into a repeatable process for every business, I mean, that's huge. You're saying essentially pretty much every business. And I know I. Because I've listened to your podcast, I also know there are certain types of businesses that you prefer not to work in. You say that the strategies don't work nearly as well. But for the most part, this is a very repeatable process. So if someone's saying like, well, that doesn't work for my industry, chances are it actually will work for them, no matter what industry they're in, no matter how niche they are, no matter how different they are from everybody else out there. So what does this look like? Walk us through a little bit of the philosophy. Like, referrals come from these relationships which come from our connections, which are built on these ongoing touch points. Like, what does all this look like in practice?
- [16:32]
A
Yeah. You know, there's two things we need for referrals to happen, and it's the two things that people don't like that other people who talk about referrals, they. They want to tell you that you control both of these and you actually only control one. So you're going to know this answer, because I know you listen to the podcast, and I talk about this pretty regularly, because I feel like sometimes you just have to repeat yourself like a thousand times before people, like, got it. Okay. On the hundredth and one time, I got it. But there are two things you need to make a referral happen. It's desire and opportunity. And what most people will tell you is that you can control both. And if you only control one, well, then you control opportunity. And you don't. You control desire, you don't control opportunity. People who teach you or tell you you control opportunity of when someone will refer to you, they're going to teach you tactics where you're forcing or artificially creating or manufacturing that referral to be true by the asking scripts and things like that. The referrals I want to walk in the door are the ones that have kind of been like, I know you're not the cheapest. But I'm still going to hire you because I have that much trust in you because somebody else told me to trust you. You know, and I just did an episode recently on this. I believe that we're in a trust recession. Like, I believe that trust in businesses and small businesses, big businesses, brands, doesn't matter. It's like at an all time low. There's just a lot of stuff happening. And you don't have to be in the United States to feel the trust recession.
- [17:54]
B
Like, most definitely, yes.
- [17:57]
A
The kids everywhere, right? And I think we all got to have our, our unique acuteness to it. But like, the truth is it's everywhere. And so that ability for someone to say, I trust this person is what we want, but it's the piece we don't control. What we control is your desire to pick you that I write. I refer to you and not the 50 other people who do what you do in your town. Right?
- [18:23]
B
Right.
- [18:23]
A
Or I pick you to refer to and not the thousand or ten thousand other. Let's use real estate agents as our example. Right? There's never an area in any place in a larger city where there's like five realtors, right? There's five on one block. Right. Like, so I'm just saying, like when there's thousands who do what you do, and if you're all still in business on some level, you do a good job or you wouldn't be around forever, right? Like, why do I pick you? And the desire is the piece you control, not like, snap my fingers. I look at you and you just give me a referral because it's some Jedi mind trick. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is what you control is how you manage and maintain and deepen and strengthen the relationship. The desire in me. And you do that by our relationship. But we're all really busy, like super busy, busy business owners. So, like, when I say you got to maintain connection, some people are like, I don't have time to take everybody to coffee every month. And I'm like, yeah, I don't either. So I would like. I don't know who has time for that actually. And nobody wants to go to coffee with you every single month. So no matter how lovely you are. So the reality of it is, it's like, it's creating a system that drives that connection, that is, comes from a place of being genuine and authentic. And it drives that connection through outreaches which we internally with my clients call touch points. And when you like, there's a framework we use inside our program of how you create what those touch points are. They are not your newsletter and they're not 10 events in a year. We use behavioral economics a lot to like factor in to how we build these touch points. And so you only have to do like five or six, maybe seven of them in a full year. And some of them are simple and some of them can be complex, but they don't have to be. Some, some people are like, I don't have a budget. I'm like, great shoestring budgets can apply. Like, you don't have to like, I can't go buy co knives. For every single person who refers to me, I'm like, then does. Right. And then you others.
- [20:25]
B
Yeah. Big thing that stagers are faced with often is that, you know, here comes the holidays. Every real estate agent needs to get the latest and greatest blanket cutting board, whatever it is that you want to give as that special gift. But at the end of the day they're getting this from. I mean, real estate agents are one of the most sought after businesses for so many different industries. So they are getting just showered with gifts, especially at Christmas time. Is that really a touch point that's going to have any value? And instead how many thousands of dollars have you spent now on that so called campaign to get in front of them? And I just, I cannot condone it. I'll admit I've done it with varying success. I wouldn't say that it's ever helped me with my referrals or anything else. It's a nice thank you. I think if that's all that you want to do is just give a nice thank you, by all means. But it's not going to make you stand out in any way.
- [21:15]
A
No. And particularly like that's what it's like. And it's like real estate agents, like anytime I'm working with one, I'm like, can we just stop sending pies at Thanksgiving? Like,
- [21:25]
B
I mean, I do like, I get a lot of free pies at Thanksgiving, so I'm going to push back on that.
- [21:29]
A
You're like, wait a minute, don't take away my pies, don't take away my pies. My point is, is that, and most people who refer to an agent probably only have one agent they refer to. Right. So most of the time it's not like the people who are referring to real estate agents or getting 16 pies. Right. It's just I see it all the time. Like every agent puts in their Plan pies at Thanksgiving. Like, it's a high and I let them keep it. Like, I don't tell them to take it out. But like, for me, I'm like, just do something.
- [21:52]
B
Can we just move beyond it?
- [21:53]
A
Yes. Yeah. Can we just write something different? But the truth is, is when we're trying to be like part of the framework of how we build our touch points. And one piece of that five part framework is what we call minding your M and M's, which is really memorable and meaningful. What we do needs to be memorable and meaningful. For some people, sending a Christmas gift at Christmas time or a Hanukkah gift at Hanukkah time in the holidays is very memorable and meaningful because in their world with who their referral sources are, they're not getting showered with gifts. It may be the only gift they get. Right? And hear me say this. We're talking about a gift because it's the easy thing to talk about. I tell folks like, don't you do five gifts in a year? That's creepy, weird. Like, you better have some variety, right? You can't just like, let me just write a bunch of thank you cards and I'll get referrals and we just send a bunch of guests and like, no, like there has to be a surprise and delight factor. That's how behavioral economics plays into it. But it is really important to understand that piece. And I think that's the piece people miss. So for some people the holiday gift is perfect. For others it's like, let's do the random thing because that's going to be more memorable and meaningful. And most of the time when people are like hearing me talk about my strategies, they'll be like, okay, so just tell me what to do. What are the five, what are the six? What are the seven touch points? And I'm like, I know you hate this answer, but the truth is, who your referral sources are helps us create the right touch points for you.
- [23:21]
B
Right.
- [23:21]
A
Based on the science based framework. And it I know that everyone's like, well, just, can I just write the one thing that my neighbor's writing and just it'll like, no. Because if you tell me that your referral sources are predominantly guys in their 20s, we're going to build a very different plan of outreach than if you tell me that the majority of your referral sources are women in their 40s and 50s.
- [23:47]
B
Absolutely.
- [23:47]
A
I know I just over generalized two totally different groups of humans. But it's to make the point of people understanding like who you're sending things to.
- [23:56]
B
Yes.
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A
And I love the sources matters.
- [23:58]
B
I love that you're, you're providing the framework, but it doesn't ne it's not a one size fits all model of like here are the six things that you need to do. So I want to dive in just a little bit further as well as to how people get started on this and how to avoid some of the most common mistakes. But first, we're going to take a very quick break to hear a quick message from our sponsor and we'll be right back. We'll be right back after this quick message. This episode of the Real Women Real
- [24:22]
C
Business Podcast is brought to you by, well, potentially you. Are you a brand or service that supports passionate female entrepreneurs who are ready to turn their vision to into profit without the stress and overwhelm. Perhaps you're an accidental CEO yourself. Now on a mission to make work and life easier for fellow passion driven boss ladies, our podcast is experiencing an exciting 30% month over month growth reaching entrepreneurs who are building stronger, working smarter and dreaming bigger. We have limited partnership opportunities available for brands that align with our mission of redefining how working hard looks and feels. Visit about shaunalyn.compartner to learn more about becoming a partner in our rapidly growing show.
- [25:06]
B
And welcome back to the Real Women Real Business podcast. All right, welcome back to the Real Women Real Business podcast where we are speaking with Stacy Brown Randall about referral strategies. And I think, you know, what we're just covering is the fact that it's not a one size fits all model. There's a framework, a proof, proven framework that is science back, which you're always going to get me anytime something is science back because I am all about the science on things. This is not just a feeling or a gimmick that one company did and it worked. And now they're saying like, oh, everybody can do this. This is all very, very much vetted. But it's not like I think people who are listening to this are like, just give me the six things right now that I can do. And it's not, it's not possible to do that. So can we maybe talk about like, what are some of the first steps that they should be taking or perhaps like what are some of the pitfalls that they should be trying to avoid? I mean, I think we've kind of covered some of the things like don't send a gift on every occasion and don't overload someone who's already getting a gazillion of something at a Time. So, yeah, let's, let's dive into like some of the things to get them started on this pathway.
- [26:10]
A
Yeah, the very first thing that you should do and everybody should do it. Like, they should stop listening to this podcast when we're done. And then they should go do this piece of homework. Because no matter what your results, share, share, show you or that you see, you will know instantly you're okay. Now I've got, now I have real information in which to make decisions from and that is taking the time to identify who's referring you. Now, like, most people will come up to me and they'll be like, oh, my business. Because I'm a referral person, right? They're like, this is all referrals. And I want to. And I like, lovingly look at them. And I'm like, that is amazing. And inside I'm like, in. You were lying. Say that because A, it's rude and I was raised better than that. But B, the truth is, is that most people believe their business is built on referrals. And I cannot tell you of the 12 years I've been doing this, the number of spreadsheets that I have looked at where people have told me my business is built on referrals. And then I got to see the data and I'm like, those two things do not align. Like, sorry.
- [27:12]
B
Like, it just so true.
- [27:14]
A
It just is like, but we, but here's the thing, and let me just address this really fast before we talk about like some tactics people can start doing, because this is really important. Important. The reason why people tell me and other people that my business is based on referrals, right? And like 97% of them is a made up statistic. But I know I'm right. Like 97% of them aren't telling the truth. It's because of what a referral says about us. When people work with me, they're like, yeah, I want referrals because I'm going to get better clients and I'm going to make more money. And I'm like, yes, but we are just scratching the surface of what a referral means to you. When you can tell somebody your business is, you know, predominantly served by referrals or you get a lot of referrals, it's not just what that says to somebody else. It's what you then believe about yourself. Because if you get referrals, it means you're worthy. The business that you do is truly, like, valuable. People want it and they need it and they want other people to Experience it. And as a business owner who's usually the people I work with are really good at something. I'm an amazing interior designer, I'm an amazing home stager, I'm an amazing marketing consultant. And now I'm going to go out on my own and start my own business.
- [28:28]
B
Right?
- [28:29]
A
So they're amazing at something and then they're like, now let me figure out how to like do my own bookkeeping and bring in clients, Right.
- [28:35]
B
I sectionally call Those my accidental CEOs who started the business with more passion than plan.
- [28:40]
A
Yes, absolutely. And most people are like that, even if they plan a lot. Like it's the I can do this for my myself mentality is where we all start. So when they're in that moment, right, like, and you're like, okay, you're great at this and now you've got to learn how to run a business right? In that moment when you get a referral, it like feeds your self confidence. I'm worried, right? I am valuable, I am worth it. I am referral worthy. Like I like to say I work with referral worthy business owners, right? Referral worthy entrepreneurs. Because you are what a referral says to you. Is that it? You're worth it. You're validated that this business you started is good. And so yes, it means the money and the easier clients and all the things on the outside, but internally that's what it says to us. So I know when someone says to me my business is supported by referrals and I know they're probably lying but don't mean to, it's because they get to tell themselves, because I do get some referrals that I'm like, without saying it, right? Without always connecting the dots or like I mean something, you know, like, yeah, you know, I'm a business owner and I matter and I'm valuable. And people like like to do business with me.
- [29:49]
B
Sure.
- [29:50]
A
So that's why I always like to say when people are like, oh my bunny, all my business comes from referrals. It's because they're building that value in themselves and they want to believe it to be true. Here's the thing, you are valuable. You don't actually probably need referrals to prove to you that you are valuable, but they're the ultimate validation. Right? But here's the other thing. People don't refer you just because they loved working with you. And people don't refer you just because you've been in the same networking group with them for six years and they adore you and sing your praises. Referring you goes further than word of mouth buzz. There's an extra step involved and it's called my reputation. And now it's on the line. And so when doing great work doesn't equate referrals, Knowing a bunch of people doesn't equate referrals. Having a huge brand in town doesn't equate to referrals. You have to bridge the gap with the things that'll have people remember to actually refer you. And so the way that we teach this is that you've got to identify who are your referral sources. Now that will then tell you is do you need more referral sources too? Which is a different strategy. But if you have people referring you now, my big question is how are you taking care of them? Like what are you doing? That's allowing you to be memorable and meaningful and your newsletter isn't it. That's allowing them to build the data, desire to pick you. But also, and this is where my secret sauce piece comes in, gives you those five to six touch points in a year. They give you the opportunity to use certain type of language which we call referral seeds that allow you to plant a gratitude based perspective on referrals while you're taking care of these people and letting them know that you appreciate them. And that is truly my secret sauce of how the entire science back framework works. It's, it's the what we do, the cadence in which we do it, and then the language that we use throughout it that allows someone to feel cared for. And once we've impacted how they feel, we can then direct how they think. But we always come from a place of being authentic and kind and then of course from gratitude and thankfulness. This is not a manipulation, taking advantage of reciprocity, but it is this idea that like, hey, you take care of my business by referring to me, of course I'm going to take care of you back. And it may not be in referrals. I may not ever be able to refer you. Right. But that doesn't mean I can't take care of you and let you know that you matter to me. And that's this, that is like at the heart of what I teach. I just teach a way for business owners to like manage it and get the language right and get the science piece right so it doesn't come off as weird or creepy, you know, or like you're overdoing it. But you start with identifying who's referring you, who are you?
- [32:19]
B
And I think that is such a key point because even as you're speaking there, I'm kind of thinking to myself of like, well, who's sending me referrals? Because I mean end of the day at the, as a business coach, yeah, that is a very good part of my business. And you know, some of, some of the referral sources that I think that I have as I'm thinking about, I'm like, are they really a referral source? And to your point of like how am I treating them in a non transactional way? In a, you know, I will probably say that I'm probably not doing half of the things that you were saying I should be doing and probably doing most things, things wrong. Because I'm, I think to your point, you know, everyone looks at a referral strategy as sort of a means to an end. And when you look at it that way, and meanwhile, of course I'm always building genuine relationships and I'm just amazed when those genuine relationships end up turning into referral. But when I don't approach them specifically as like you need to give me a referral. Can you give me a referral? Here's a link to, to get me a referral. But I don't approach them in that, that way. It's amazing how people are just like singing my praises like here you go, here's all I want to give you. Any business that I can possibly give you. There's just a natural way to it. I wouldn't say that I could replicate it necessarily though I don't have a system in place for replicating it.
- [33:32]
A
Well and more than likely like you would, you could probably tell me like here are the things I think I was doing and I could pull out the pattern that was there and how you were tapping into the behavioral economics part of the science framework. Framework that actually made it work for you. Some people do stumble up. I just, I'm not the only human, right. I'm just the human who built a business around it and makes it gives you all the shortcuts, right. But other people do sometimes, like over years, like create this for themselves. And I think that's the important thing to remember. The other thing is, is, and I like that you said like I'm just being genuine a big part. So one of the foundational strategies that I teach is yes, the first and foremost is if you have people referring you now we're going to dive into that because that's your low hanging fruit. And usually I can get to the ROI and the referral increase you're looking for from that group of people, which is just your existing referral sources. But nine times out of 10, not always, but nine times out of 10, people are also like, and I need more people referring to me, new people referring to me. And then they go through that training. And I like, like at the very beginning of that training, it's like, hold on, where I'm about to teach you something that's going to feel very backwards, very slow, and like, are you serious? Can we just get on with it? And that is why this is going to work, because people come to me all the time and they're like, well, I want to do this so I can get this in exchange. And I'm like, wrong. Like, that's how you approach it. You're not going to always get that. You may get some of it. Everyone may hit people at the right time. But I teach what we call literally the. The process of turning new people into referral sources and turning to my clients. We call it the backwards model. We're like, we're not a bull in a china shop going in the front door saying, hey, I'm going to be great to you because I'm doing it with an alternative motive that you're going to give me referrals. And if you don't do it in three times, I'm out. I'm not caring about you anymore. Right, Right. We go in the side door and we're like, what would it look like to put that person first for a year? Right. Like, what would it look like to impact them, help them, do things for them, Release our expectation that the referral is going to come from them. Right. Because we're doing this for more than one person at a time. Right. So. And there's a system I teach that you can manage it and keep up with it, but, like, what does it look like to. To build into other people's worlds? Right. And of course, I do teach the language of how you plant referral seeds when they've never referred you. It is different. The formula, the language looks different. But, like, what would it then look like? Just to care about them. That's all you're going to do is just going to care about them and you're going to listen for ways to help them. You're going to try to help them, and yes, you're going to plant some referral seeds in the process. Because here's what the science tells us before I'm ever going to get to the point of remembering, not even trusting you to Refer to you, but like remembering to do it when the referral actually happens.
- [36:17]
B
Right.
- [36:17]
A
I have to know you care. And the only way you can genuinely help me know that you care is to make it about me, not you.
- [36:27]
B
And this is one of the challenges in networking groups because you get up there and you do your 30 second elevator speech, but you're not building a relationship with the other people in the group necessarily.
- [36:35]
A
People come to me all the time. They're like, I'm in this group that meets every Tuesday, or I'm in this group that meets once a month and why am I not getting referrals? And I'm like, well, how many one on ones have you done within that group? And they're like, I've done a one on one with everybody. And I'm like, and then what did you do to follow up after the one on one? Right. For like four or five more times over the course of the next 12 months. And they're like, what? Nothing. I'm like, well then you didn't earn the referrals. That's why you didn't get them. Like, you have to be willing to put people first. And this is why there are some industries I work in and some industries I don't. Because the mentality of the person who's running the business, it's also why I love working with smaller business owners. Because they're like, I get it. Because you know, when it's happening to you on the reverse, you're like, I don't want to be like that person. Right. And so you get it. And you're like, all right, I'll take the time to invest and to learn this and to do this. Because, you know, the people I work with, the clients I work with, whether an attorney or financial advisor, an interior designer, a real estate agent, it doesn't really matter. Nobody spends a dollar with them. They spend thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars with these people over the
- [37:42]
B
course of their big investments. Yeah.
- [37:44]
A
So the, the, the trust factor, the expertise factor, the relationship factor matters. And so they're like, I can invest in being a good person. Like, I can make the time for that. And like. Right, like, because you're going to have to.
- [37:57]
B
Well, it's funny because I also teach a home staging certification training program. And one of the things that I've always said it makes my training program different from all the other programs out there is how much we address the human factor. Because, because a lot of interior designers, home stagers, they have the eye for things. They look at the MLS listings, they're like, oh, they just need to do X, Y and Z. That's all fantastic. But if you want to get them to spend a dime with you, they have to trust you, they have to like you, they have to want to work with you because you're now asking them to spend thousands of dollars and they might not actually be on board. So if you don't know how to get them on board with your recommendations in the first place, they're definitely not spending a dime with you. But I, I like what, what you're saying though, about and I, and I'm sure this is actually probably one of the most frustrating things someone listening to this probably like, wait a minute, where's my quick fix? I would like to just, you know, when you talk about yes, there's always the low hanging fruit. There's always some opportunities for some things. But I recall listening to a podcast episode of yours not that long ago, but I actually don't know if we're talking weeks or months ago, but it was not that long ago where you were speaking with a client of yours who in the first year working with you, essentially his response referrals were basically the same as they were prior to working with you.
- [39:07]
A
Yeah, they're flat the first year.
- [39:09]
B
Right. Which doesn't mean that he lost any business or anything else. But like, I can imagine it's difficult to feel the results when you're like, well, I literally just did the same thing. So I've invested in this, in this program and in this, this coaching and I'm not seeing a difference. But year two, that's when things really started to change because like you said, you're planting seeds. So it's not an instant quick fix. But this goes back to everything that I teach about is about building a sustainable business. Quick fixes and quick hacks are not going to get you the sustainability. So if you want something that's going to continue to work long term, I'm all about creating a business that will work in any market and isn't going to be affected if TikTok shuts down tomorrow or Instagram decides to delete all of your posts and you have to start over. Or if you get hacked on your Facebook account, whatever the case, you still have your business running. I had one of my coaching clients lost her Google business page for about six months. I had her on my podcast a few months ago talking about how she suddenly is no longer searchable. If someone types in she was a home stage or someone types in Home staging in her area. She literally did not come up in the results. So the only way that she was going to get business was either by her social media, which again is not really a full strategy, it's a trickling kind of thing. But I said, okay, your next job is to reach out to every single one of your contacts and tell them what's going on. Because I think the more that they understand that your business is now suffering from this Google review or Google business aspect, the more likely they're going to want to, want to help you. You're not going to them and saying like, I need business, I'm desperate. None of that just simply just what happened. Hey, here's what's happened. So in case anyone's looking for us, you're not going to be able to find us online. We're definitely still in business. We still would appreciate any business that you have. And I'm sure that all the language I gave her is probably wrong in your books. But nonetheless, it did work though, in terms of helping her to sustain her business. If she didn't have relationships already, she wouldn't have had anything to pull from in order to help to keep her business, business afloat. And one of the things that I had said to her though was that people genuinely want to help other people, that is, and that it sounds like that's kind of what you're, you're tapping into as much as it's not the reciprocity so much as people just genuinely want to help someone that they know does good work. They want to be able to support that business in some way, but they're only going to do it from a genuine place. So if they can refer you, they will refer you. But, but you, they have to, to your point, they have to remember you, they have to know how to refer you. They have to understand exactly what it is that you do. If they don't understand. This is, this is one of the big things that I talk about often with my clients is if you can't be clear on what it is that you do and what you offer. And I know even like our conversation pre hitting record here, we were talking about how you streamlined your own business. If you're saying to them, well, I could do this or I could do this or I could do this or if you need this as well, like if you've got a laundry list of the things that you can help with, it's really difficult for someone to really dial into how they can actually help you and refer you. Whereas if you are very streamlined on, this is who I work with, this is how I work, and this is how I help them. That's going to get you the business. And I know so many of my clients like, but I don't want to miss out on business. I get it, trust me, because I'm constantly chopping up my own business to say, how am I going to narrow this in my focus to what I really want to be doing and how I really support people. And it's hard sometimes because we see these opportunities, like, well, I can do that. I could do this other thing over here. But you're diluting your business and you're diluting your, your success. And so to make you more referable, I'm assuming. And again, you're the expert on this, but I'm assuming in order to be more referable, it has to be pretty clear as to exactly what you do. And if you're doing 26 different things, that's going to make it a bit harder.
- [42:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, definitely. I always say, when you think about it, I say this to my teens more when they're driving. And I'm like, distraction leads to destruction.
- [43:05]
B
Right.
- [43:05]
A
But I think it, it applies in business too, right. If you're truly distracted in your business and you're trying to, like, be all things to all people and like, I do all these things and like, and do all this stuff for you, it's like, okay, it's not literal destruction. Right. But it is that idea of understanding. Like, the, like, the. More, like, there is something to be said about if you're going to generate reflection referrals that people need to know how they're going to refer to you. But then people take that out of context and they're like, well, they have to know what I do and how I do it and how my process works and how amazing I am. And here's my portfolio and here's all the things that I've done. I'm like, no, no, no. People actually don't care that much about all those things they do. Need to know, are you a real estate agent or a home stager? That's an important distinction, right? Sure. Right. Are you an interior designer that also does home staging or are you just a home stage? Right. That's an important distinction. But beyond that, they're not thinking about you that deeply to know how amazing you are. Right. Like, that's going to come in when someone goes and checks out. Even if they're referred to you people, potential clients are still going to Go check out your website, right? They're still going to go check out you and you know, online places. But that is that idea of like, I can remember what you do once I know you care. And that's a fundamental piece that you have to put forward first. And if people are already referring you, what's another a no brainer to want to take care of those people because they've already sent you potential clients, right? And the episode you were referring to, that was David's episode and that was episode 363 on my podcast, the Roadmap to Referrals podcast. If anyone wants to be like, wait, someone didn't get those results they were looking for. I'm like, yeah, like, that's why I had David on the podcast. Now he's a financial advisor and their industry is just different. Like sometimes I have someone come to me and they're like, I'm in this industry and I'm like, like gold mine. Like, this will be so much easier. And then I have some come to me and they're like a financial advisor. And I'm like, this will take longer. So don't come in, don't come on board if you can't be okay with that. And David clearly could be okay with that. And then of course, he had all the success he needed and then some in continuous to. Right?
- [45:05]
B
And, and you even did say in that podcast that you approached it with him very transparently of like, you're not going to see instant results. And I think that is important that whatever industry you're coming from, you have experience that you can help to manage expectations, let's say, yes, definitely.
- [45:22]
A
And like, and it's true, there's some industries where like, if you come to me and I'm like, oh, you're sitting on stuff you don't know you're sitting on. This will be easier for just to uncover that. But I think like one of the things we were talking about is people being like, where's my quick fix? Like, what's the thing that I can do that I can feel like I can take momentum and move it forward now? And here's the one thing, here's the two things I would tell people, folks to do. The first thing is to actually go through the process of identifying it. Do you have referral sources now? Because once you can see those names in black and white and you're like, oh, I do have people who refer me. Right. It changes everything about feeling empowered to making a decision. If you want to do something different. I Don't care if you got six people on that list or 62 people on that list. Like, you can just be like, oh, these are the people that referred me over the last couple of years. Let me start here, right? It's like starting with the relationships that have already proven to do the thing you want them to keep doing. And I tell some folks, like, if you have like 10, 12, 20 people who referred you last year, I was like, what if we got the referral from them again this year and then got another one from them already? We've doubled what you've done and we haven't had to create any new relationships. And so sometimes people don't understand that it's that simple and break it down. But once you've identified who these people are. This is something I teach in my, my starter program. I started programs called your next five referrals. And it's like, hey, let's just show you the places in your business and some things that you can do, easy things, it's like four modules. It's like easy things that you can do where you're probably sitting on referrals you didn't know you had. Or they're like right there. You just don't know what to do. And the goal is to help you get your next five referrals so that you're like getting a taste of it and you're like, oh, I can do this. And then if that's, if that's all you need, great. And if you need more, then of course you're perfectly positioned to come into one of my programs. And so from the urinex5 referrals, one of the things I talk about is, is that once you've identified everybody who's referred you, what if you just sat down and wrote them all thank you note thanking them for referring you in the past? It doesn't have to be fancy. Couple of lines will do the trick. Just make sure you say thank you for referring me in the past. Like, let's call out the action that you want them to repeat in, in a framework of gratitude, right? Like, like, thanks for referring me to referrals in the past. They mean the world to me and I appreciate you and you mean the world to me. Whatever you want to say right now, will that unleash a river of referrals? No, and I'm not guaranteeing that. And can you build a referral strategy the way that my clients have results off of that? No, of course not. But it is a quick win and it is a Starting point. And I have had people who take that tactic out of your next 5 referrals and write the thank you note and send them out and be like, I got a referral. I'm like, like, I know you did. Like, of course you did. I can't guarantee you how many you'll get and how long it'll take and if you'll get any. Right, Sure. I mean, if you've never thanked anyone forever referring you and then all of a sudden out of the blue they get a thank you card, they may be like, right. So like, hopefully you've been doing some good things along the way. But we talk about that in the first module. Like, here's how you thank people. Right. You get all that information. But it is a quick win of like, can you just take a half a day of. And I'm assuming a half a day if you have a lot of cards to write, most people can knock this out and like an hour. Sure. But it's.
- [48:27]
B
And I will admit, like, I hate writing out thank you cards, but you're absolutely right that it doesn't actually take a lot of time and it be a fairly simple thing to do. Yes.
- [48:35]
A
And it matters, you know why thank you card matters more than anything else you can do? Because of what it says to me that a text and an email and even a voicemail or even a video can't say to me, which is I'm worth your time. Writing out a thank you note will always take longer and more time than any other type of communication channel other than, than like driving to your house and saying it to you face to face, which is like clearly creepy. Right? Like, so the idea there is that send the thank you card because it tells them that they are worth your time. And that is something we want to make sure that they understand.
- [49:10]
B
And I couldn't agree more. When I get thank you cards, I genuinely appreciate them and you know, sometimes they have like a little gift card or something in them, which is always appreciated as well. But to me, he's not the always necessary. No, I agree. It's. I don't need the incentive. And I'm not thinking like, oh, when I refer so and so I'm going to get a $10 gift card for a coffee shop of my choice or something like, no, I, I couldn't care less. It's the same thing. Like if you incentivize me to take a survey, I am someone who, I try to participate in surveys whenever I can because I know how valuable that feedback is. But if I don't have the time, I don't have the time, or if it's a company I don't care enough about, then I'm not going to do it. If you try to, to say to me like, well, I'm going to give you a $50Amazon card to do it. I'm probably still not going to do it if I wasn't already interested in doing it. The incentive doesn't change things. The incentive is a bonus that people appreciate. I'm sure I referred someone to. I've got, you know, a friend in town who works for a particular car dealership, ended up actually getting my mom's latest car from his dealership from him. And he had a lovely thank you gift for me. I would have done it without the thank you gift. And knowing that I get that doesn't make me any more or less likely to refer him in the future. The experience that my mom and I had purchasing that car from him, that's what's going to get us to refer him again.
- [50:28]
A
That's the thing. People always think, like, I've got to give you the gift card. I got to give you the gift. I got to say thank you in a big way for the referral you just sent me. But if you, once you start down that path, you're now actually what people don't realize is that you're moving into commoditization of the relationship, right? Like an area, right? That's the area you're moving into. And so now you start to be like, well, it's the reward, right? Is the reason why they're referring. No, it's not. And if you're not careful, you're going to commoditize the relationship. There's nothing wrong with saying thank you with a thank you gift, right? But what if that person goes on to refer you, like, four more times this year, like and like. Then what if you forget to send gift 3, 4 and 5, right? Like, so it's that idea. Like, I don't like to reward. Reward for the referral received. What I like my clients to do is send a thank you note, a handwritten thank you note when the referral is received. But our Touchpoint plan, those five, six or seven touch points are running behind the scenes regardless of when the referrals come in. So we know throughout the course of 12 months, they're going to get touched five or six or seven times. And that's happening regardless of when or how often the referrals are coming in. And they're still getting a thank you card and they refer.
- [51:33]
B
I love this. I mean, honestly, I think that we could probably talk about this all day and still we're barely scratching the surface of it at the same time. Same time. I love that you've given some. Some really easy tips to be able to get people started on it. And I think something so simple as figure out where your referral sources are and actually write them down. I am a big fan of actually, like, having that visual of putting something into, like, a data collection system, whether it's a piece of paper, a spreadsheet on your computer, into your ClickUp tasks, whatever it looks like. But having that captured in some way is. Is so incredibly powerful. One of the, One of the things that I have my clients do, for example, when they're feeling like, oh, business isn't going as well as it could be, I'm like, okay, so today I want you to write down where your money's going to come from next and just write it down. They're like, oh, well, they do have some things in the pipeline, or I do have some opportunities. And if you don't, then it's allowing you to be creative and say, like, oh, well, here's where my money's going to come from. And I know that that's putting it very crassly of like, oh, where's your revenue coming from? But the reality is that we are built on, like, we operate on money. I don't operate on fumes or on goodwill or exposure. My business needs actual cold, hard cash in order to pay the bills. So I don't necessarily do this with every client, but I do it sometimes with just the clients who are getting a little bit in their head of, like, write it down. Because you just need that visual to remind you that, like, yes, your business is thriving. And whether it's that or whether it's your gratitude or whatever, there's a reason why we write these things down. You write down your affirmations, you write down your mantras, whatever that looks like. All of those are helpful to have. So I think that's one of. To your point, that's one of the simplest, easiest ways to just get that. That quick reminder of where things are coming from so you know where to focus some of your efforts. So, Stacy, if someone is listening to this and they're thinking, okay, I need more information, we're going to have a link to, to your podcast, of course, in our show notes, because I think that everyone should be subscribing to your Podcast. But what's the. How else can they find you?
- [53:29]
A
Yeah, so the home base of the website, Stacey Brown Randall, is a wealth of information in terms of. We have a resource page. If people are like, let me go do some things. Let me, like, there's a quiz that you can take that kind of helps you understand where you are in terms of your ability to generate referrals. There are some, like, exercises that we kind of talked about that are there. You can watch a video on the science of referrals. Digging in deeper. I truly, like, scratch the surface with us. But there's more behind it that you can go and learn about. And that's all on the website. I always like to tell folks, it's like, because, like, choose your own adventure. Like, what do you want to learn about from that perspective? I mean, of course, I'm on the big social media platforms as well. LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook are like the three. You'll find me my full name. But I really tell people, like, if you. If what you've heard and you're like, this makes sense to me. And I want to generate referrals in a way that feels more naturally and in alignment with how I want to show up and treat people. The best thing that you can start doing is, like you said, just start consuming what I teach. Like, don't buy anything yet. Like, just start consuming what I teach. Come to the podcast. We drop a new episode every Tuesday, I think, just like you do. Right. So I have two episodes to listen to yours and then mine. Perfect.
- [54:38]
B
Yeah.
- [54:39]
A
And then just start consuming what I teach, and it'll resonate with you. And then, you know, I have a book out generating business referrals without asking. You can read that or get the ebook or listen to me, like, say it to you in the audio version. Get my second book when it comes out. I'm a firm believer that when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And there are people who are listening to this podcast today that are like, that's what I need. You can figure out how to work with me on my website, but for other folks are like, I just need a little bit more of the teacher before I'm ready to make any kind of decisions. And so that's why we have plenty of information out there for folks to take advantage of. Books, podcasts, and then the resource page on the website.
- [55:15]
B
Well, clearly you are practicing what you preach and making yourself incredibly referable as well by putting all that out there. But, you know, jokes aside, though, honestly, Stacy, I cannot thank you enough for coming on to the show today and sharing just a wealth of information and really helping us to sort of reframe how we look at referral business. And like I said, when I first met you, I was very skeptical. Like, this is not an entire business. I don't know how she's. She thinks she's building an entire coaching business. And then I'm talking to you, you're like, oh, no, I've been doing this for several years. Like, come on now. So, I mean, again, you definitely changed a skeptic into a believer with me. But thank you so much for sharing all this with my audience. I truly appreciate it.
- [55:55]
A
Thank you for giving me the opportunity. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.
- [55:58]
B
Wonderful. So listen, if you're listening to this episode and what we're saying here is resonating with you, be sure to tune in again next week and check us out and allow us to continue on the journey with you. Don't forget to check out Stacy Brown Randall on her website as well. We'll have that in the show notes. And of course, don't forget to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform. Leave us a review because this is a great way to help others to be able to find us and, you know, maybe refer us to someone. But I always say the best way that you can support us as well as your fellow women entrepreneurs is to share this podcast with someone that you know really needs to hear this message right now. And until next time, keep thriving.
- [56:34]
A
I just want to give a quick shout out thank you to Shanalyn for hosting this episode for you guys, my listeners, I hope that you enjoyed this conversation between Shanalyn and I as much as I did. I mean, as you guys all know, I could talk about this stuff, stuff all day long every day. So it's always fun when I get to go on other people's podcast and share thoughts. And I love how they ask questions that sometimes I don't even think about myself and it gives me a chance to answer it. So when that happens, I always want to bring those folks onto my podcast so you can hear other people ask me questions about referrals. Now, Shanalyn mentioned she created the accidental CEO assessment and it may be the next right step you want to do after listening to this episode and realizing that maybe your business, it may need referrals, but it may actually need some structure to the growth so it can sustain that growth. So her accidental CEO assessment will help you pinpoint what your business actually needs next, whether that's stronger systems, clearer priorities, better profitability or more support behind the scenes. Because remember, we want referrals, but we also want to make sure the business is built to sustain them and to support them. You can take the free assessment at about shaunalyn.com forward/roadmap. But of course, you know I'm going to link to that in the Show Notes as well. So if you are looking to connect with Shauna Lynn, you're looking for that link to her accidental CEO assessment, or you're also looking for the transcripts for this episode, please remember links are always below the video. If you're watching this on YouTube and of course on the show notes page@staceybrownrandall.com 417 for my podcast listeners, thanks for making it to the end of this episode. Until next week, take control of your referrals and build a referable business. Bye for now. Sam.