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- [00:04]
A
Do you love referrals but hate asking for them? Well, then you've come to the right place. This is the Roadmap to Referrals podcast and I'm your host, Stacey Brown Randall. You know when you have a client that you would clone over and over and over again if you could? For me, I've actually been very lucky to have many clients that I would love to clone over the years. They trust you. They're willing to test and try things. They're willing to follow the roadmap that you've laid out for them. They're willing to try new things that they've never considered before. They ask thoughtful questions because they're engaged with what they're learning. And in some cases, they push back when they need different clarity. And above all, they implement what they have learned. In this episode, I get to introduce you to one such client, Katherine Taylor. Now, if you've attended any of my 20 minute teachings or the trainings or webinars, or workshops, you've probably actually met Katherine before. Well, you've met her through her results. Seven plus years of them. Now, if you're a longtime listener, Katherine has been a guest before here on the podcast, episode 189. Oh my gosh. I'm kind of mortified it took that long to get her back on the show. But she is back and she's a part of our Where Are They Now? Series. Katherine is the founding attorney of a boutique business law firm that works with Smith business owners that she started 20 years ago and now has multiple attorneys. Here's just a couple of reasons why you should listen or watch this episode. First, you're going to learn what prompted Katherine to get serious about referrals in the first place. Then, of course, you're going to get to learn her results and what they have been over the last seven years from 2019 to through 2020 2025. For context. This is not really context as much as it is a spoiler alert. She averaged about 12 referrals a year and now averages around 70 new referrals every year since. But we're going to break down those actual numbers in the episode. You're also going to listen to her talk about how learning my referrals without asking methodology has impacted her business and why she compares it to training for a half marathon and the one word Kathryn uses to describe working with me and learning my methodologies, my frameworks and my strategies. It's a pretty special moment in the episode, so you've got to check it out. Let's get to it. Katherine, it is always a pleasure to have the opportunity to chat with you and so I'm so glad to welcome you back to the podcast. Before we dig into all the great things we're going to talk about today, would you just take a minute and tell us a little bit about your firm and like how long you've been practicing and the type of legal work that you do?
- [03:26]
B
Sure. So my firm, law firm, we're a law firm based in Maryland and we basically call ourselves a boutique business law firm. We have four attorneys now, two full time, two part time attorneys with that, you know, handle a variety of business work for business owners and businesses.
- [03:52]
A
Awesome. And then how long have you had your firm?
- [03:55]
B
So the. Yeah, so the firm, let's say I founded it about 20 years ago.
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A
Yeah.
- [04:02]
B
Yep. It's been a while.
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A
So. So you're not a newbie, I guess, is what we're supposed to say, right?
- [04:08]
B
Not a newbie. Exactly. Not a newbie, but always learning new things.
- [04:12]
A
That's very true. Right? Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Okay, so first, before we dive in, I just want to give a quick shout out. So you were connected to me by Neil Tyra. He is the previous or past owner and host of the Law Entrepreneur, which he sold a couple years ago. And so obviously it is owned by someone else now, but that is how we got connected. So before we connect of Dove and I just wanted to give him a little shout out. Good old Neil. He was an awesome referral source for me in the past and he always was so gracious to let me be on his podcast. And that's how I got connected to you and had the opportunity to work with you for a number of years. So I feel very, very blessed that because of Neil, that you were a client of mine and I have gotten to know you. So shout out to Neil.
- [04:57]
B
Yeah, same here. I'm glad I listened to that podcast episode when you were a guest on his podcast.
- [05:03]
A
Yep.
- [05:04]
B
Awesome.
- [05:04]
A
Okay, perfect. So let's do a little walk down memory lane before we dig into present day. So as you're thinking back over, you know, a little less than a decade. So like pre2018, when you kind of came into my world sometime towards the end of 2018. So. But you're thinking about 2018 and previous, right? I mean, you've owned your firm for 20 years, so at that point, I don't know, I'm not going to do public math in my head of like exactly what point you were at with your firm at that time, but let's just say it was, you know, before 2018. What did your practice look like then? I would say anything prior to 2018.
- [05:42]
B
Yes. So from the beginning, you know, about 20 years ago through about 20, 20, 20, I would say I was the sole lawyer handling business related work. When we first started, there was another lawyer along with me and we together handled real estate and zoning. So in General, for the 12 years or so prior to 2018, I was handling both real estate zoning and business related work and primarily as a sole practitioner with the assistance of another lawyer who has been and is still part time.
- [06:27]
A
Yeah. So when did you make the shift away from the real estate zoning work and really going into the business owner boutique firm?
- [06:35]
B
Well, that was, interestingly, not long before I found you, Stacy. So I had made a very intentional decision to stop doing zoning work. Zoning is very local, jurisdictional based. It was very political. It can be very contested. And I really loved representing small businesses and business owners. So I decided to concentrate solely on that area while the other lawyer was going to still do, you know, the real estate and zoning work. So I would say that was again around about a year or so before I found you.
- [07:12]
A
Okay, so that leads me into my next question, which is perfect. Like, let's fast forward to today. You're obviously not doing any zoning work and you haven't for well over a decade or more. You actually have other attorneys who are now in the firm. So your firm's been growing and of course your focus area has been on working with small business owners. So those are some of the things that have changed. When you think about it, what else is different or the same about your business now than it was back in the day when you started it? And we're, and we're getting your firm going.
- [07:45]
B
I think one thing is that is the same is that we. Well, fortunately we have a core group of a core team, kind of, you know, some behind the scenes folks who are crucial to the running of the firm. And I definitely believe that. Well, the way we handle intake has changed and the way we produce our work product for clients has changed a bit. One of the biggest things that that changed, obviously during the pandemic was that now most of our meetings with potential clients and existing clients are virtual and not in person, which really, you know, the clients many times prefer. But, you know, so much hasn't changed. Yeah, you know, there's different social media outlets and that sort of thing, but so much hasn't changed in the sense that, you know, we develop relationships with our clients. We're doing probably a little more complex work than we were five to 10 years ago. But, you know, we remain what we call the lawyers for business owners, and primarily small business owners.
- [09:04]
A
Yeah. I guess redlining a contract is still the same. Right? That's probably never going to change.
- [09:10]
B
Yeah, I mean, AI has changed the way a lot of people tell us what they need, you know, sometimes for the better and. But unfortunately, most times for the worse. But, yeah, you know, we're. We're. We're using AI in our own practice, but only as a tool, you know, to aid our work. But, yeah, for the most part, you know, the work that we do, the judgment that we put into it, you know, the experience that we bring to it is. Is really, really not changed.
- [09:41]
A
Yeah. And that's really what we want in our attorney. Right. I mean, we're hiring an expert. When we hire an attorney, we're hiring an expert for a reason.
- [09:49]
B
Right, exactly.
- [09:50]
A
And it doesn't matter which attorney you're hiring for whatever need you have. Right. In your case, you know, small business owner work, whether it's divorce, personal injury, intellectual property, it doesn't matter. Right. You're. When you decide to hire an attorney, you're hiring the expert. And you want to know you're getting that.
- [10:06]
B
Exactly, exactly. Yeah.
- [10:08]
A
So that's awesome. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about your referral journey.
- [10:13]
B
Okay.
- [10:14]
A
Before we. Okay, so I just want to say this for the listeners. Like, Catherine, for me, has been a client since, like, I guess, 2018, like late 2018, and she's actually been a client more than. I'm going to do a little bit extra walk down memory lane. Catherine, if you don't mind, but Katherine has. If you knew my business back then. Right. I did more than referrals. Referrals was the main piece. It was the thing I was trying to grow my expertise around. But I was one of those entrepreneurs that was like. But I kind of can do a couple of different things, so I want to offer a couple of different things. And so you actually, like, in addition to being a part of my referrals program and going through that, you also were part of the goal finishers club, you remember, back in the day.
- [11:00]
B
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
- [11:01]
A
Yeah. That was one of the programs that I retired in the reverse school setting and everything back in 2020, 2021, whenever that was. But yeah, it just makes me think about, like, the opportunity that I have had to work with you and over the number of years that I had to Work with you has been really incredible. You've been an alumni client now for a couple of years. It was very sad to let you
- [11:26]
B
go, and it was hard, but you
- [11:29]
A
were more than ready. So I love that we're able to have this conversation. And I just love always getting to know you. And then you would come, you know, to their end of year retreats with the clients, and so I would get to see you at those things too. So you've actually met in person, which doesn't always happen with all my clients. So I love that. And you even have family in North Carolina. So sometimes, even if I don't see you sometimes, I know when you're headed this way. So it's just that. Nice connection point, but specific to the referrals work that you've done with me. Okay. I have my numbers in front of me because I don't want to mess this up. So before we started working together, so when you came to me late in 2018, you were averaging about 12 or referrals a year. So about a dozen referrals a year, which is like not a terrible number. Right. It's not like it was what you were capable of, which clearly you were able to prove to yourself, but it was like a really good solid number for us to start from and to start working with. And you had also made a shift, Right. Just before or just around that time, starting to make that shift for what you would be known for and what you wanted referrals for. Right. So it wasn't zoning. Right. It was more the small business owner. So then you were able to more than triple your referrals in your first year working with me, which was to 40 in your first year, which was amazing when you were implementing the referrals without asking methodology. Then in your second year after that, you got to 51 referrals. And then over the years, and I really love that you update me with your numbers because it makes me like, you know, always know that things are happening and working. And over the years, you've landed somewhere between like 65 to 85 referrals on a yearly basis, kind of moving forward. And every year looks a little bit different. Sometimes we have a different focus of what we're looking for from a business perspective. But you're landing somewhere in that 60, 70, 80 range of referrals every year and have done that for the last number of years. I think that's probably the last five years.
- [13:24]
B
Yes.
- [13:25]
A
And so when you think about the referral growth that you have had in the firm, and you think about the strategies and processes that you have in place. How would you talk about how that's actually impacted your firm and the work that you do and the growth that you've experienced?
- [13:46]
B
So I would definitely say it has been transforming in the sense that early on when I was doing some of the courses and the modules and the work with you, I realized that there was an entire method and tools that could work that weren't hard to implement. And that actually makes sense. I kind of almost liken it. I was telling somebody the other day about something and I said, I liken it to, like, running a half marathon. Let's say it sounds like a huge goal and sometimes unachievable, but, you know, if you do the training and take each step kind of at a time and make sure you get in, you know, the training runs, then you'll end up being able to run the half marathon. And doing your course was very similar. I think at first you kind of look at this and like, oh, my gosh, this is just so daunting because there really is a lot of information, a lot of mindset shift. I think that has to happen. But you do such a great job of, you know, just kind of like putting things together in packages that are, you know, easily understand, understood. And then like, at the very end, it's like, oh, my gosh, I have this whole plan that I can now implement, and obviously we're tweaking as we go along, but that, to me, was what was transforming about it. It wasn't just like, oh, it's just going to happen. You really have to make something. Put something in place to make things happen, but once you do, it happens. Which is kind of wild.
- [15:32]
A
Yeah, I think that's the thing that people overlook when they're. When they're making the decision to work with me is that I do want to impact that first year of referrals that you're going to have. But I really am after the answer you just talked about, about how it's a system and it's a process, and then once you put it in place, it's just running. Right. And just continues to run. It continues to serve the firm. And that's ultimately what I want for everybody. Right. To be able to experience from that perspective. So I think that's awesome. Okay, so you did. So you mentioned this. So I just want to kind of give like a little bit of a background, like the chronological for how you worked with me, because it looks different for when I'm having people on this series, like, when we're talking to people in this series of, like, where are they now? So clients that I used to work with. Right. Like, we haven't worked together, I think. I think 2023 was our last year. Maybe it was 2024, working together. And so it's been a couple of years. I always like to give the perspective of what it looked like, like, and how you worked with me, because it's changed, as you know.
- [16:35]
B
Right, right.
- [16:36]
A
So much. Right. Like, it's like, if you were a client in 2018, you would not recognize my business today, or most of it, I would say. So you came on, as in, through one of my online courses, which we don't offer our signature strategies or our programs and standalone individual online courses. That's just a shift we made in the business in 2021. More so because I realized some people can go through an online course and have success, and lots of people can have the best of intentions to go through an online course and never complete it.
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B
Right.
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A
So having access to me helps them get the completion rate going. But again, you started in the online course, then you moved to the inner circle, which was like the precursor to. Became the building a referable business coaching program. And then of course, morphed into, like, the. Of course that program still exists, but supporting people after their first year is the referral master's program. So you move right into that as well. And so if you had to. I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot here, but if you had to sum up all of that that you experienced with me and the strategies and the processes and the experience of working with me, if you had to sum all that up in one word, what would you say would be the one descriptor?
- [17:49]
B
So I mentioned this before, and I think that word really is transforming in the sense that it's not only. It wasn't only a, you know, tasks and things to do. It was really a mindset shift. And that takes time. I mean, it. It takes time because you kind of have to see it happen to know that it can happen and that it will continue to happen so long as you kind of, you know, keep on doing the things that, you know, you do to hopefully bring in referrals and. And as we spoke about before. Quality. Quality referrals. Yeah, yeah. So that would be. That would be my one word. But it was. It's hard to kind of come up with one word, but I know it's not.
- [18:42]
A
Let's be honest, it's not a Very fair question. It's like, okay, what's the one word that you would use to sum up the last seven years? Right, that. That you've been implementing? What, the work I've done and the work that you've done with me. Like, what's the one word but, you know, transforming? Transformative. I mean, I think that that's a word I think a lot of clients would probably use.
- [18:58]
B
Oh, interesting.
- [18:59]
A
Yeah, Right. I've definitely heard that before. It's kind of why I like asking it. I'm like, oh, what am I going to learn today from that perspective? And I think you've also said something. It was a little bit of. Well, not a little bit, but it was, you know, pieces of shifting your mindset around referrals, and then also executing and doing the work and putting the strategies and the processes and the plans in place that ultimately gave you success. Hey, pardon the interruption. If you're listening or watching this and it's August 2026, then, my friend, you're in luck. The Fall Referral Accelerator is open for registration. It's happening in October, and it's in Charlotte. Check out what the heck the accelerator is all about and why you should be there, like in the room@staceybrownrandall.com accelerator. So would you say that what you learned from me, whereas when you're first learning it, it can feel overwhelming because you're learning new stuff and you're putting things in place and there's a number of things. There's not one thing you're learning, right? There's like, I teach 20 strategies. Like, there's a number of things you're putting into place from processes like workflow processes and plans and learning language and stuff. So outside of the, like, sometimes that overwhelming feeling you have the first time you're hearing it, the first time you're learning it, when you're first trying to put it into place. Past that, though, would you say what I teach you is, like, complicated or complex?
- [20:36]
B
No, no, I think. I think you said it well. And that's. And I think I mentioned this earlier, that initially things seemed somewhat daunting because you do use different terms for, you know, or not different, but you use your own terms, which I think is great. You know, that means certain things. But. But once you're familiar with the terminology and kind of like the flow, it's not complex. It really just. Again, it's really just kind of putting all these things together and then you can kind of see that everything works together. And if you continue to do even some of the things that, that we've done, you know, like, for instance, making sure we keep up with our data, keeping, you know, we use the dashboards, make sure we have different, you know, a variety of touch points. Those things that we put into place, you know, a couple of years ago. Years ago. Still. Still work.
- [21:41]
A
Yeah. And I think that sometimes I. I think people expect what I'm going to teach them is going to be complicated and complex or. Or they expect it to be what I would refer to as like. It's what I teach personally. I feel once you get it right, once you become familiar with it and you understand the language, there's a simplicity to it.
- [22:01]
B
Absolutely.
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A
Yeah. Right. And there's a. And I think there's beauty in the simplicity of it.
- [22:07]
B
Yes, right.
- [22:08]
A
It's not like elementary and it's not watered down, but there's a beauty in understanding that this isn't complicated or complex, but we have it boiled down to where it can be simplified. Right. There's beauty in some of it being basic, and there's beauty in the fact that it's something that once you put into place and lean into it, it then works. And as you are like, just as we talked about your numbers, it's working year over year over year. And I think sometimes when people work with me or they consider working with me and when I can figure out that's where their head is, I usually try to direct them. Like, I'm probably not the person for you. They think it's going to be some, like, rocket ship, you know, like specialized magic bullet, silver bullet of something they have never thought of before in their entire lives. And it's never been heard before, it's never been understood before. And that's what I'm going to teach them. And they can be disappointed if that is actually not the reality. And I'm like, we're talking about humans.
- [23:06]
B
Exactly.
- [23:07]
A
We're talking about getting referrals from humans. And we have been studying human, Human sociology, psychology. Right. All the things for generations. And humans don't change that much. So the referral strategies and tactics and frameworks and the science that we use behind it, there is a simplicity to it. There is a basicness to it from that perspective because we're dealing with humans. That's what makes, I think, what I do so powerful. But I do think people show up and they're like, what's the thing? And I'm like, no. Like, this is like, yes, I will probably teach you some language pieces you haven't thought of before. But I'm also going to show you a structure and a process and a workflow so that you actually just maintain and do the things you need to do. And I probably will teach you some things you haven't ever thought to do before. Right. You just needed me to show you the way. But it's going to feel like common sense and it's going to feel simplified once you know what it is. It's just nothing you ever came up on your own with.
- [24:09]
B
Exactly. So it's interesting that you say that because, I mean, I'm sure I could go out and purchase a, you know, a chart, you know, that is similar to the plans we put together. But the important thing is knowing why the entries are in the chart. You know, when I say chart a plan, you know, coming up with a plan for how we're going to keep in touch with referral sources, keep in touch with clients who might be at referral sources, all those things. It would probably be easy to go out and find something. Hell, you can probably, you know, ask Chat, GPT or CLAUDE to put something together. But it's not the putting together. It's not having that plan or piece of paper that is what was, for me, transforming. It is understanding why those things work. So, and you just can't do that by reading a book or just reading a book. It's that, you know, that connection that, you know, we had with you being able to ask you questions, well, why does this, and, and why not this language and, you know, why this timing or that sort of thing, I mean, those kinds of, that kind of information cannot very easily be communicated unless you're dealing with somebody who, you know, is familiar with the business, is familiar with the, you know, like you said, the emotional and psychological forces kind of behind why a lot of these things work.
- [25:56]
A
Yeah. And that, and that's the reality. Right. This is my life's work. So if I hadn't figured all those pieces out and then figured out how to teach it to very busy business owners in a way that will allow them to get it.
- [26:09]
B
Yes.
- [26:09]
A
And then put it into place. Right. Then what am I doing in business? I mean, clearly, like, this is why I have the business that I have. But I think that when people talk about looking for the next thing to solve a problem they have in their business. Right. There's been so much over the last decade that comes at it from a technology perspective or social media perspective and now, you know, like an AI perspective. It's like you're Looking for the silver bullet or the shortcut. And I'm like, you know what? It's, this is actually an, it's the beauty of that and the simplicity of what we're going to put together is there, but it's going to happen and the results are going to happen. Because you put in the reps.
- [26:50]
B
Exactly.
- [26:51]
A
Right. Like, you put in the reps. And here's the other thing I always tell people ask me all the time, they're like, who's successful versus who's not successful when they work with you. And there's a couple of buckets of folks when they're not successful, what they fall into, Right. I mean, the ones you would expect, those who do nothing and learn nothing, implement nothing, do nothing. Like, clearly they're not going to be successful. Right. And I always tell myself, I know I don't feel responsible for those folks, but then I think sometimes the people who are successful and the thing that gets overlooked are the ones that can understand that this is about the trusting the process and putting the stuff in place and trusting it to work and seeing it through and recognizing that it's rooted in the science of like, human behavior and things like that. And so when I tell you, hey, say it this way, not that way, it's not a flippant like, hey, I may be changing three words of what you're saying, but that shift is the difference maker. And it looks so simple, right? It looks so like just like nonchalant, oh, say it this way versus say it that way. But that's where the power is. And that's, I think, the piece that people miss of, like, I'm not coming in, usually in companies, no matter what their size is and like imploding what they're doing, I'm coming in and I'm just showing you how to tweak the work you're already putting in.
- [28:11]
B
Yes, yes.
- [28:12]
A
And some cases we may be building up processes of things you're not doing that you should be doing and maybe you didn't think to do them. Right. Like that's the case too. So again, because I think some people, when they do, and I think it's important to hear from someone like you, who's been through years of working with me, continues to put referral strategies and processes and plans in place post working with me for the last couple of years, that it becomes a way that you run your firm. Right. It becomes a way that you look at what the firm looks like and it's not overwhelming and the success lies in Your ability to do it year after year after year and keep it going. It's why you have results and it's not a silver bullet. And I didn't implode your law firm when we started working together. I'm like, hey, we need to take better care of the people who refer you now so they can refer you more like, here's what that plan looks like. Okay, so you know this, but just for my audience listening, one of the coolest things I get to do is know that when I finish working with a client and they graduate to alumni status, that what I taught them, if they're going to keep it going, that what I taught them has the opportunity to live on in their firm. But I also know, as you do this year over year, you kind of settle into the things you do consistently, all the time, non negotiables. Right. But it may not be everything that you've learned from me over the years that we work together. What are some of the strategies? Right. Whether they're your versions of the strategies or tactics that I've taught you at a high level. Right. We're not going to talk about the details of them, but what are those that you've learned from me that you continue to use today? Here we are, and you know, almost the middle of 2026, like, what are the things that you continue to use in your practice?
- [29:52]
B
So I think the first thing that was really apparent to me when I first started working with you was, you know, you basically said you need the data. And, you know, so I remember spending a long time. Because when you first do it, you've got to go back several years and look at the data, like who's referring, you, how many times, who did they refer, that sort of thing? Well, one thing that we're doing is we're keeping data on a consistent basis.
- [30:18]
A
Right.
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B
When I say we. And another thing that I want to say that's really important is, you know, at some point, as you know, Stacy I brought into the mix, not necessarily in the online, you know, in the meetings or anything like that, but I made sure that our practice manager understood what we were doing, you know, why we were doing it. I actually had her watch some of the videos, I think.
- [30:41]
A
Yep.
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B
But that was crucial because I, you know, wasn't able to do all of the, the, the back office stuff. Right. The keeping track of, of the data, who, who is referring, clients, who do they refer, that sort of thing. But what that does, obviously is it lets us, number one, see who is referring, whether referrals have gone down or have, have increased. But also from that point, we know who we need to connect with later, who we need to thank. You know, we're so, we're still using that concept of peeping data. I think we're still using something similar to a. One of the charts that I think.
- [31:26]
A
The dashboard.
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B
The dashboard, yes. We're definitely using the bat.
- [31:30]
A
It's for people listening. They're like, oh, a dashboard. I'm like, it's a fancy word for a spreadsheet.
- [31:34]
B
Exactly, right. Yes, exactly. The touch points, you know, the idea of a touch point has just become common language for us. Like, oh, like what other touch points can we use? I mean, even just that word, there's a lot behind it.
- [31:52]
A
Yeah.
- [31:53]
B
The staying warm strategy. I don't, I can't remember whether it's.
- [31:58]
A
I know everyone changes the name once they take it into their own company, which is fine. The running five. Keeping more.
- [32:03]
B
Yes, exactly. Yes, yes, yes. So that, you know, we are doing a little more casually, but we're still doing it. And one thing that we've done is we've kind of implemented a. Most of us are remote and so we've implemented, you know, a team meeting that we have every week to go over admin related things, but also to go through kind of the referrals. Who's come in, you know, we talk about it, you know, what touch points are we going to have going forward. And that, number one, keeps us all accountable, but also keeps the process going. And of course there are tweaks and we fall behind a little bit, but for the most part we're using so much of what we were able to put together and learn during those years that I was actually working actively with you.
- [32:59]
A
Yeah. And I bet there's probably other things that you forget because they've been running for so long. Right. How you follow up with a referral source after they've referred to you, it's probably just like second nature for you. Right. How you write a thank you card when someone refers, that's completely second nature. Now, like how you follow up with a referred prospect. The things that you're doing within the client experience. Right. To kind of plant and permeate and percolate the idea of referral seeds with your existing clients. Like there's. I know because we've had these kind of conversations. There's things that you do that just feel like it's like you've. You feel like at some point you've always done them because now you've Been doing them for so long.
- [33:37]
B
Right.
- [33:38]
A
And they're just a part of how you run the firm, which of course is a huge honor to me. I love it when people are like, we are doing the running five, keeping warm, or we still got our touch point plan going for our existing referral sources. And I'm like, that's how I know you're going to continue to have success. Maybe not, you know, like double digit growth every single year, but steady increased growth, allowing for some years will be a little bit lower than others. But that consistent climb up in the referrals you receive. And of course you've added more attorneys. And so as more of those attorneys start bringing in their own referrals, that's only going to grow the number of referrals that you guys are receiving as well. You know, if any of them are, you know, rainmaker type facing, bringing in their own work. So there's a lot.
- [34:19]
B
And on that note, you know, I can see where I can, you know, we can sit on a meeting and I can say, well, let's do this, and this is something I think you should do. And there's a newer lawyer working with us and you know, I'm trying to instill in her the importance of maintaining these connections and, you know, bringing in referrals. So I can definitely see a time when, you know, I will have taught her as much as I can teach her because I'm a lawyer, you know, and where she would benefit, frankly from, you know, kind of like from getting back involved. She'll benefit from getting involved again, you know, from our firm, but with your program. Because. But because I think there is a lot of stuff that, that you learn that I can't necessarily teach because that's not my job.
- [35:16]
A
Well, here's the thing. You probably could teach it, but you answered that question. It's not really your job. Correct. You got other things that you're definitely working on. Yeah. Well, you know, we would welcome anyone from your firm to come back and work for us. Absolutely. Okay. So thank you so much for sharing. Kind of like your journey of what the firm looked like before you made a focus on generating more referrals and kind of like what that experience was like. And of course it warms my heart to know that you, that you feel as if the work that you did with me and what you learned and how you implemented it was transformative and was transforming for your firm. That gives me all the feel good feels knowing that it was valuable and helpful for you. So, you know, this question that's coming next. This is not a surprise question for you because it's one I teach and it's obviously one I do for myself. But let's say you're talking to an attorney that's listening to this episode right now, and they're trying to make the decision if they should join a program of mine, whether it's the coaching program or the referral accelerator or one of the programs, to work with me. What would you say to them as to why they should hire me?
- [36:25]
B
So I think in many ways it's more important now than it was even when I started working with you, Stacy, because as we know, this world is becoming more online. You know, social media, AI, sound bites and all that can be good for so many people. But what lacks, what is lacking with a lot of that type of communication that's just kind of out there is human connection. And then you touched upon that earlier, and I think now more than ever we need that human connection because, I mean, somebody can look at an AI produced video and get some information, but it's not going to affect them certainly, you know, in the way that you want your referral sources to be affected, to make them think about the human part of what, you know, kind of what they're doing and what's going on. And I think so when I said earlier that, you know, I, you know, I could say to a new lawyer with us, well, let's, we have this spreadsheet and, you know, this dashboard and we're going to do these things. But what really is the, the gist of, of this whole program is the human connection. It's the emotions, you know, the feelings, the gratitude we want to show for what people are doing for us. And as I said, I think now more than ever we need to make sure that we foster those connections. And not even just for referrals, just in general, but certainly for getting business and getting referrals and getting quality referrals.
- [38:24]
A
Yeah, there's a level of discernment that I think happens when you decide you want to start generating referrals for your company that you have to learn to apply to any of the strategies. And I think that's what usually, like even just reading a book, even though I published two and I love my books, right. Like even just reading a book or reading an article or asking, you know, AI on some level to like, spit you out some things that you can do. What I always find is that they're very prescriptive and they don't always take into account the discernment you need to show based on who you're doing these things for and what it looks like in your relationship with them. Like, you know, I was in a call with the group that's in the coaching program right now. It's one of our monthly Q and A calls. And we were in a conversation and someone asked a question about, like, felt like a messaging they had learned they had used wasn't landing right. And if, like, when she said the messaging right, it not being in my shoes, I bet 99% of folks have been like, there's nothing wrong with that. And I. I was able to be like, I know that why that's not landing based on who she was sending it to and based on understanding her business and all those kind of things. And so that level of discernment is something that comes from when somebody who understands the work, not necessarily AI and things like that. And what I know is very important to you is making sure that what you're doing keeps you feeling like a human. Right? And not like this always on salesperson, where you have to constantly be trying to feel like you're manipulating or selling or whatever to grow your business. You're able to do something that can feel good and be right and still work. And I think that's important too, right?
- [40:09]
B
Feel right from my personality in the way that I. We like to connect with humans, like you said.
- [40:15]
A
Yeah, absolutely. No, I completely agree. All right, well, Katherine, I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours. Thank you so much for spending the time with us on the podcast. I appreciate it. I will link to all of the ways that folks can get connected with you. There's a lot of business owners that listen to this podcast, so I will connect with how they can. Or I'll add the links for how they can connect with you in the show notes page for this episode. But thank you again very much for being here with me on the show.
- [40:45]
B
Thanks. It was fun for me.
- [40:48]
A
There is something magical about having an alumni client come on the podcast or come back on the podcast. It's like one part trip down memory lane and one part reminder of the impact I have been able to have on my clients for years. If you've ever considered being like my next Katherine Taylor, well, then we should chat. First step, of course, is to submit your application@staceybrownrandall.com application now. If you want to connect and learn more about Katherine Taylor and her team of attorneys working and helping small business owners, then please check out the links below. The video to connect with her or of course, on the show notes page@staceybrownrandall.com425 Remember to like this video, leave a 5 star rating for the episode and subscribe to the show. Whether you're watching this on YouTube or your favorite podcast listening app, I also love feedback, so please drop me a comment below. Bye for now.