B (2:07)

wild, what we've seen. Correct. When we're looking at their activity levels. So whether they're resting or they're playing or they're socializing, we've seen. We've compared that information to the literature, and there's a few papers out there that talk about the different percentages. So getting a little technical in the science, the percentage of activity that is

A (2:27)

ongoing, this has never been done before, right?

B (2:30)

Well, no, it hasn't been done before.

A (2:33)

We're trailblazer and innovator, guys. I love that. I love that.

B (2:36)

But actually, I have more than from the last time we chatted because we weren't just looking at the surface activity, we are now looking underwater. So we have footage from these animals in managed care underwater and from the wild. And what we've seen by comparing the data, looking at the data, the same way that we do with small dolphins is how they act animal to animal. So killer whale to killer whale is the same as how bottlenose dolphins and spotted dolphins act to each other. So it's large and small dolphins, they use their bodies, actions, behaviors the same way.

A (3:09)

So it's like large and small dogs. They're still dogs, pretty much, yeah. Yes. So they still have the same behaviors that's related to.

B (3:16)

And we just recently, this last month or two, we've gotten in footage from two groups of animals in the wild, two groups of, I should say killer whale groups in the wild, underwater footage and drone footage. And so we're comparing that to what we've seen for the animals in managed care. And as with the smaller dolphins, we're not really seeing any differences. And with all that we're doing, we're learning about these animals.

A (3:38)

Yes.

B (3:39)

The important thing is to share it, to get what we know about these animals out in as many conservation initiatives as possible. Because what we learn about the animals in our care can then be applied to animals who are in distress in the wild.

A (3:52)

Yes, absolutely. So I know you've got a huge agenda of work ahead and you have an area that needs proper, scientifically based information and humane solutions which you're offering now. You're a finalist for the International Prize for Species Conservation, and certainly you're working to conserve species in a huge way. What does it mean to you to be a Kiesling Prize finalist this year?

B (4:21)

I'm honored to be a finalist to be recognized for my decades of work. It's an added encouragement that we're doing the right thing. The recognition will expand our reach through the dolphin communication project. I like to say that our reach is small but mighty. And so by collaborating with Global Humane and collaborating with the Kiesling family and the Kiesling Prize, it means we can reach that many more people and share this message and get everybody on board.

A (4:51)

Absolutely. And you're sharing the message that science offers meaningful and impactful solutions?

B (4:57)

Yes, most definitely. Most definitely. We learn from. From the animals in our care. We can watch moms and calves 24, 7 before, during and after the birth. We understand the assessment of the animals. We can look at them and say, what do they need to thrive? To survive? And thrive. That's information that can be taken from managed care and applied to the critically endangered killer whales. We can to look at what's going on with them. What do we need to help them survive? And that's only possible because of managed

A (5:28)

care and certainly because of your work studying populations in the wild.

B (5:33)

Yes.

A (5:33)

And in managed human care. Dr. Dusinski, always a pleasure to have you here in Robin. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest today, the 2024 Kiesling Prize recipient, Dr. Arnaud. Debbie, you really have an amazing background that we're going to hear about today. So proud to know you, proud of your accomplishments and your achievements for the benefit of the animals. And I'm so proud to meet a fellow passionate, passionate advocate like you are. So tell us a little bit about the Wild Animal Conservation Institute that I know is so incredible and your work with these incredible armadillos and anteaters.

C (6:11)

Yes, yes. So thank you so much. The Wild Animal Conservation Institute in Portuguese is Instituto de Conservacion de Anima y Silvestres.

A (6:22)

You said it better than I could.

C (6:25)

Today we are 25 people, 25 staff, full time. And these are biologists, veterinarians, communicators, educators, social, social scientists. So a diversity of backgrounds. And we also have five interns and seven students completing their degrees, master's, PhD, postdocs. So it's quite a large group of people. And our mission is to promote a more peaceful, a more harmonious coexistence between people and animals. What started kind of as wanting to save the giant armadillo from extinction is now really a project that tries to work with the local communities that live with biodiversity to try to find solutions so that people and wildlife can thrive together.

A (7:14)

So what's happening to the giant armadillos in this area? Why are they threatened? They're not a food source, Right.

C (7:22)

In some places they can be, such as the Amazon. In some places they are hunted. Actually, we work in four different biomes. The Pantanal, the Cerrado, the Amazon and the Atlantic Forest. And in each of these biomes, the species faces different threats. So for example, in the Pantanal, where we have a long term field research going on, almost nothing was known about this species before we started really studying this animal. So we've been studying a population for now, yeah, 12, no, 14 years. One of the main threats in the Pantanal is these fires we were talking about. And so what we did with other partners, we put together community fire brigade. And so we worked with 22 different ranches and we provided the equipment and provide yearly training so that the landowners and the ranch workers are able to combat and fight any out of control fire before it destroys the whole area,

A (8:21)

which would destroy the habitat for the armadillos.

C (8:23)

It would destroy the habitat for the armadillos, but also the livelihood of the ranches. So it's really some work that we do hand in hand. Often when you look at it, a lot of the issues we face, we all want the same thing. We all want thriving ecosystems. It makes economic sense and it's good for biodiversity. We often get caught up in these short term solutions. And so one of the things we often do is try to work with the people living with biodiversity and try to find ways so that they can coexist peacefully with wild animals. So this is, you're absolutely right. This is a huge amount. This is a huge sum. And we are so grateful to the Kiesling Award for providing this. And we would like to invest this funding in capacity building. And so we have interns, so to train interns from Brazil in Campo Grande, provide them with a stipend so that they can learn different aspects of conservation. So communication, education, coexistence, but also using the funds to bring conservationists, young conservationists from other parts of South America to come work with us. And so we're hoping, we, we're hoping to work with the Mammal Society of Colombia to bring two Colombian conservations per year to Brazil. And we're all, we started working in, in Paraguay and now with the prize, we're hoping to extend that to other regions because the, we work with both the giant armadillo and the giant anteater occur throughout South America. So it's really important that we also communicate and find these different solutions.

A (9:59)

And I love that you're working with the next generation of conservationists and next generation of leaders with the prize, which is tremendous because we want this prize to serve, to inspire. This has been an incredible conversation with our 2024 prize winner, the International Prize for Species Conservation, Arnaud Debbillet.

C (10:20)

Thank you so much. And thank you so much for having me.

A (10:22)

Oh, thank you. I'm so proud to have Professor Theo Pagle join me in the nest today to chat. As you know, he is the recipient of the Kesling Prize for Species Conservation. Congratulations on winning this prestigious prize.

D (10:39)

Oh, thank you very much. I'M so thrilled still about this honor and hopefully we can raise awareness that more and more people go on and save biodiversity. I accept this prize really on behalf of my team. You know, it's not just me. I had a lot of luck and I had a lot of support in doing what we did. And then it's a teamwork. So that is the first thing. And I really hope that this Wolfgang Kiesling Prize for International Conservation sends a light to conservationists and says, yes, go on, try whatever you can do. We need to save biodiversity and that we get the awareness we need to finish our job. I would say so. It makes me totally happy, especially as I know Wolfgang Kiesling for decades, and it's really a special, very, very special honor. I'm really thrilled. But zoos have changed. You know, zoos are conservation and education centers nowadays, scientifically run zoos like ours here, Cologne Zoo, Germany, and you have many here in the States. We do a different job than our predecessors. You know, they started to show different species and we are now really on an eye level with other NGOs working in the field of conservation. And that makes me very happy that, yeah, we can contribute and we can contribute, reach out to the people, we can really get them interested, enthusiastic, we can tell them the story, why biodiversity is so important. You know, without biodiversity, we cannot live. And biodiversity is not only some species of animals, it's about plants, it's about habitats, biomes. So everything together will help us as humankind to survive on this planet. And without, there's no future for us. But we have many stories of success and of hope. So I'm very optimistic that we can change the world to the better and climate change and biodiversity loss are connected. So we need both. We need a proper climate and we need the biodiversity which is able to live under the circumstances. And I hope that this signals will really force ourselves, but also the politicians to make the right decisions and not to think in the term of your election. You have to think in five, 10, 20 years. And that is so important now. And we cannot wait for the future generation to do that. It's up to us who are now in the positions to make the right decisions. So with the help of everyone, the young, the older and the medium generations, we, I think, can change. And I have my office 100 meters from the river Rhine. As a young boy, I would not have been able to swim in the Rhine because it was so much chemicals inside. And now salmons are swimming again up to the river. So we have these Stories of success. And yes, we can. And that is exactly what we need to do. Please let us start to act.

A (14:06)

Thank you for all you do, Theo. It's a privilege to know you. I am so excited to introduce you to our guest today, Dr. John Paul Rodriguez. Welcome to Robin's Nest.

E (14:16)

Pleasure to be here with you, John Paul.

A (14:19)

You are a legend in the space of conservation and I'm so proud to know you. And I really got to know you through our mutual friend, Wolfgang Keesling. In fact, you were recently recognized last year as the inaugural recipient for the Wolfgang Quiesling Prize, International Prize for Species Conservation. What did that prize mean to you?

E (14:42)

All the work that we do is teamwork, is work of many people working together. And a lot of the motivation and the support for a group comes from being known. So getting our initiative out there so that people can recognize our achievements and our successes, but also having the resources to do so. And this prize allowed us to do both things. Conservation works. We know how to do conservation. I mean, there are lots of examples, hundreds of examples of species that have been on the brink of extinction and have been brought back through carefully planned, considered design, evidence based conservation interventions. So if you estimate how much money we spend on saving species and compare it to how much money is spent on destroying nature, we actually do a pretty good job because there's many orders of magnitude less. And so my crusade is to mobilize even more people so that a greater quantity and quality of efforts get out there so that we continue to reverse this trend and improve the status of more and more species.

A (15:49)

What is the sixth mass extinction and why is it an urgent call for change?

E (15:55)

Yeah, well, so the vast majority of species that live on Earth, but let me put it another way, a very small proportion of all the species that have lived on Earth live on Earth now. So about 1% of all species that have existed on the planet in millions of years. That means that the majority of species have gone extinct and they've gone extinct over millions of years through natural processes. We call those background extinction rates. And those background extinction rates are not constant. There have been periods where more have happened and then periods where fewer have happened. And prior to the present, there were five of these mass extinction events recorded in the geological record and other so natural ways to document the past. And those all had causes. One very famous one, a big meteorite that fell in the Yucatan Peninsula and drove extinct many species. The current extinction crisis. So when you look at the background extinction rates, you come up with a number on average so many species go extinct per century. If you look at the current extinction rates, they're anywhere between 10 and 10,000 times larger than these background extinction rates. So using that evidence, we say we're going through a six mass extinction event, which is comparable in size to this geological past. But we know that the cause is human activities. So in the past were natural processes like meteorites and other natural phenomena. But this time we know it's our activities mainly since the Industrial Revolution, mid-1700s, 1800s. And in those very few years we've reached a much faster rate of change of biodiversity than ever recorded in history, because those mass extinction events in the past happened over millions of years or at least hundreds of thousands of years. So it's a very different timescale and the impact is much bigger.

A (17:49)

Tell us, what does rewilding mean to you?

E (17:53)

Yeah, well, rewilding means, to me is to let nature be nature. So it's remove the pressures that we put. There are many ways to do rewilding. Some of them are very hands on and you bring all the missing bits, the missing species, the predators, and put them in. Another approach is to just remove the pressures and let nature recover. Both of them work in different ways. Some are better in some ecosystems than others. But ultimately what you're really facilitating is, is the natural processes to act in their own dimension, their own capacity. And that's really fascinating to me. And we've seen how the introduction, the famous cases here in the US with wolves in Yellowstone and other examples. Once you bring in a missing link, the whole system shifts to a new state. And that to me is just marvelous. To be able to see and to experience, to contribute to and to bring back some of these spaces that were completely transformed into a state that is more welcoming to all the components and all the species that coexist there. We all can make a difference. It's overwhelming to see the world and see some of the big challenges and the big drivers of extinction are possibly beyond the reach of an individual's capacity to act. But it is the combined effort of all of us that really makes a difference. I really believe in constantly sharing your message. I think that the power of politics, of voting, of being active in that space, are very important, of making the politicians and the leaders of the world understand your concerns and your interests. Very important to demonstrate success. Nobody likes to support, and I mean this in the best possible, but nobody supports losers. You want to support winners. And so for us to be conservationists and presenting a message that we're losing is just is a killer. It's not a way to motivate people. We have to highlight the many examples where we're winning and to keep doing that. So for me, you know, do not give up. Realize that as individuals, we have power and we can make a difference.

A (20:05)

I love that. So everyone can make a difference.

E (20:07)

Everyone can make a difference.

A (20:09)

Thank you so much, John Paul Rodriguez, for being in Robin's Nest today. Thank you for tuning in to Robin's Nest. We want to hear what you think. Please make sure to review the podcast on your podcast platform. Watch for upcoming episodes that will include new and exciting discussions. If you love animals, you'll love this season of Robin's Nest.

D (20:33)

Sam.