Voices of the Ocean: Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski on Dolphins, Whales & Hope

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Robin's Nest – "Voices of the Ocean: Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski on Dolphins, Whales & Hope"

Host: Dr. Robin Ganzert
Guest: Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski
Date: September 22, 2025

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Dr. Robin Ganzert and renowned marine mammal scientist Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski. The primary focus is on Dr. Dudzinski's groundbreaking research on dolphins and orcas (killer whales), dispelling common myths about their welfare in human care, and discussing the critical issue facing two orcas in France caught in a political and ethical crisis. The episode blends scientific insight, personal stories, and a call to action for animal welfare advocacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Orcas Are Dolphins, Not Whales

• Dr. Dudzinski clarifies a common misconception: orcas, commonly called killer whales, are actually the largest species in the dolphin family.
  • “[Orcas] have whale in their name because they're big... but they're dolphins.” (Dr. Dudzinski, 01:44)
• The distinction matters for understanding their behavior and care needs.

2. Groundbreaking Research: Comparing Wild and Managed Care Orcas

• Dr. Dudzinski shares new findings from her research comparing killer whales’ behaviors in the wild and in zoos/aquariums.
  • "We are seeing no difference in their surface activities. They're socializing, they're resting, moving around, different things like that between the killer whales in managed care and the killer whales in the wild." (Dr. Dudzinski, 02:01)
• This includes advanced video analysis of both surface and underwater behavior.
  • "Killer whale to killer whale is the same as how bottlenose dolphins and spotted dolphins act to each other." (Dr. Dudzinski, 03:26)

3. Challenging the Narrative and Addressing Misinformation

• Dr. Dudzinski’s findings directly challenge prevalent media and activist narratives that emphasize suffering or lack of natural behavior in zoos and aquariums.
  • "This is a shock and awe moment, because this is not what we read about in the media, but this is real scientific evidence." (Dr. Ganzert, 02:31)
• The discussion underscores the need for decisions to be rooted in science rather than emotion or political agendas.

4. Personal & Scientific Journey

• Dr. Dudzinski recounts her 30-year career, including inventing a mobile video-acoustic system with her father to study dolphin communication.
  • "There was no program to study dolphin communication and there were no tools ... so in conversation with my dad ... we developed and designed and built a mobile video acoustic system..." (Dr. Dudzinski, 04:57)
• Insights include social behaviors of dolphins, alloparenting among females, and mentorship among males.

5. The Plight of Orcas in France: Science vs. Politics

• Current crisis: The French government has blocked the relocation of two orcas, Wiki and Keiko, from a closed park, refusing movement to a qualified facility (Loro Parque) due to political pressure from groups opposing zoos and aquariums.
  • "[Detractors] lobbied the governments of France and Spain and said, no, no, no, they shouldn’t go there. They should go to a sanctuary, which doesn't exist." (Dr. Dudzinski, 12:24)
• The animals remain at risk, as sanctuaries cited do not actually exist or are not feasible within necessary timelines.
• Both Dr. Ganzert and Dr. Dudzinski highlight the urgency and ethical imperative of moving the animals for their welfare.
  • "Basically, the French government has sentenced them to a death sentence if they don’t move them soon..." (Dr. Ganzert, 13:10)

6. Advocacy, Education, & Outreach

• Dr. Dudzinski's nonprofit brings students and citizens into the field for hands-on learning, hosts public outreach events, and produces educational materials.
  • "We take people into the field...We work with eight universities...We have deep dives, we have dolphin lessons, they're all free." (Dr. Dudzinski, 08:19)
• Emphasis on the importance of personal connections with animals for fostering conservation efforts.

7. The Need for Science-Based Policy

• Strong sentiment that politics should not dictate animal welfare outcomes.
  • "Politics should not impact animal welfare because politicians do not have the scientific base of expertise to say what's best for an animal." (Dr. Ganzert, 14:33)
• Managed care and research are necessary both for animal welfare in captivity and the conservation of wild populations.

8. Recognition & Continuing the Mission

• Dr. Dudzinski is a finalist for the prestigious Kiesling Prize for species conservation.
  • "I'm honored to be a finalist...The recognition will expand our reach through the dolphin communication project...our reach is small but mighty." (Dr. Dudzinski, 15:34)
• She reiterates that understanding and applying lessons from animals in care is critical for saving endangered populations.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the orca-dolphin confusion:
  • "No, they're dolphins." – Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski (01:43)
• On scientific findings vs. media narrative:
  • "This is real scientific evidence...There's really no difference in their social activities for a killer whale in human care and one in the wild." – Dr. Robin Ganzert (02:31)
• On personal connection to her research:
  • "I've been studying dolphin communication and behavior from the underwater perspective. When I started graduate school in the early 90s, there was no program to study dolphin communication and there were no tools..." – Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski (04:57)
• On the orca crisis in France:
  • "The animals would and should be moved today." – Dr. Robin Ganzert (10:23)
  • "I love them, yes. And I would have hoped—I think that Loro Parque is the perfect place for them...I still hope that they can go there." – Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski (10:40, 12:43)
• On politics and animal welfare:
  • "Politics should not impact animal welfare because politicians do not have the scientific base of expertise to say what's best for an animal." – Dr. Robin Ganzert (14:33)
• On the broader impact of her work:
  • "What we learn about the animals in our care can then be applied to animals who are in distress in the wild." – Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski (14:44)
• On recognition:
  • "...our reach is small but mighty...by collaborating with Global Humane and the Kiesling family and the Kiesling Prize, it means we can reach that many more people and share this message and get everybody on board." – Dr. Kathleen Dudzinski (15:34)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:44 – Orcas are dolphins, not whales
• 02:01 – No behavioral difference found between orcas in the wild and in managed care
• 04:57 – Dr. Dudzinski’s scientific background and early research innovations
• 08:19 – Outreach and education efforts through the Dolphin Communication Project
• 11:43 – The crisis facing Wiki and Keiko, orcas in France
• 12:43 – Debunking the myth of existing sanctuaries and the case for Loro Parque
• 14:33 – "Politics should not impact animal welfare" memorable quote
• 15:34 – Kiesling Prize finalist and expanding impact

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Takeaways

• Science-driven policy and humane solutions are vital for the future of both wild and managed animal populations.
• Misinformation and political agendas can put animals directly at risk, as evidenced by the current orca crisis in France.
• Personal connections—facilitated by research, education, and outreach—are essential to building public will for animal protection.
• Collaboration among scientists, advocates, and the public is necessary to achieve lasting progress in animal welfare and species conservation.

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Final Call to Action:
Robin and Kathleen urge listeners to raise their voices on behalf of the two orcas in France, advocating for humane, scientifically informed decisions that put animal welfare at the forefront.

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Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Robin Ganzert and this is Robin's Nest, a space for voices that really matter. My guest today is Dr. Kathleen Dusinski, a world renowned marine mammal scientist who has dedicated her career to understanding dolphins and their incredible ways of communicating. Many of us feel a deep bond with animals, from the pets we cherish at home to the endangered species in nature. Join us for lively, informative conversations where together we will build a more humane world. Oh, gosh. Today's episode of Robin's Nest is gonna be great for those water lovers. Have you ever been whale watching? Do you love to swim with dolphins? I tell you I do. I love it all and I love those great creatures of the sea. And today we have in Robin's Nest, Dr. Kathleen Dasinski. She's been in the nest before. We've learned so many incredible facts and we've experienced her passion for research. We've been teased with her research that she has that's come out. I tell you, there's no other person who's done as much for dolphins and for the research with populations in nature and populations in zoos and aquariums than this incredible woman here. So I'm so glad to welcome Dr. Doszynski back to Robin's Nest. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you, Robin. It's great to be here.

[A]

Great to have you. And I have to ask you, you have done some incredible research lately. It's new and it's so impressive because I think it changes. Changes the narrative. And you've been all about changing the narrative since you started your career.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But let's talk about orcas, those killer.

[B]

Whales, first of all.

[A]

Are they whales?

[B]

No, they're dolphins.

[A]

See, that's exactly right. Everyone talks about killer whales thinking that they're a whale. They're dolphins.

[B]

Well, killer whale is their common name. So, you know, they have that because they're big. Most of the dolphins, there's three or four species of dolphins that have whale in their name because they're much bigger than the smaller dolphins. Yes.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

Which is pretty cool.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But now over. I mean, we chatted before and I've been able to look at killer whales for the last three to five years. We're studying them exactly the same way that we study the small dolphins, the bottlenose and spotted dolphins, using video analysis, observing their behaviors. And the exciting thing is we are seeing no difference in their surface activities. They're socializing, they're resting, moving around, different things like that between the killer whales in managed care and the killer whales in the wild, based on literature that we've collected.

[A]

So wait a minute. Because this is a shock and awe moment, because this is not what we read about in the media, but this is real scientific evidence. And you are saying that your research shows that there's really no difference in their social activities for a killer whale in human care and one in the wild.

[B]

What we've seen correct, when we're looking at their activity levels. So whether they're resting or they're playing or they're socializing, we've seen. We've compared that information to the literature and there's a few. Few papers out there that talk about the different percentages. So getting a little technical in the science, the percentage of activity that is ongoing.

[A]

This has never been done before, right?

[B]

Well, no, it hasn't been done before.

[A]

You're trailblazer and innovator, guys, I love that.

[B]

I love that. But actually, I have more than from the last time we chatted because we weren't just looking at the surface activity. We are now looking underwater. So we have footage from these animals in managed care underwater and from the wild. And what we've seen by comparing the data, looking at the data the same way that we do with small dolphins is how they act animal to animal. So killer whale to killer whale is the same as how bottlenose dolphins and spotted dolphins act to each other. So it's large and small dolphins, they use their bodies, actions, behaviors the same way.

[A]

So it's like large and small dogs. They're still dogs?

[B]

Pretty much, yeah.

[A]

Yes. So they still have the same behaviors that's related to.

[B]

And we just recently, this last month or two, we've gotten in footage from two groups of animals in the wild, two groups of. I should say killer whale groups in the wild, underwater footage and drone footage. And so we're comparing that to what we've seen for the animals in managed care. And as with the smaller dolphins, we're not really seeing any differences.

[A]

Again, I think this is contrary to the narrative out there. I think it's so exciting. It is real science coming to solve what has been an ethical debate that has no root in anything other than emotion.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

That is important. You're doing such incredible work.

[B]

It's exciting.

[A]

It is exciting. I want to back up for a minute because people will say, well, I'm in Robin's Nest and I'm hearing this and it sounds completely different than what my news story is saying. Why should I believe it? Dr. Dasinski, go back and share your background and how long you've been in this space and who you are because it's so impressive.

[B]

Well, well, thank you, Robin. And believe it or not, I've been doing this for three decades. I've been studying dolphin communication and behavior from the underwater perspective. When I started graduate school in the early 90s, there was no program to study dolphin communication and there were no tools to study dolphin communication. So in conversation with my dad, who was an electrical engineer and my graduate advisor, we developed and designed and built a mobile video acoustic system that gave us the tools to study dolphin communication, to look at their vocalizations, their behaviors, inter animal exchanges. So we now had a tool.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And so then what I did is use that tool to collect three decades worth of data on animals in the wild and in managed care.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And then to study those data. So we actually spent a little more time watching the videos. But that gives us these subtle patterns of behavior, these nuances in how animals share information. The, the looks that they can give each other, the postures where a calf will be next to its mom in echelon or in infant position. But those two postures are used by adults and by mixed sex groups and pairs because it's probably for courtship or maybe an interaction. We know that females alloparent, they babysit other females, cats, before they've had their cats to learn how to be a mom. Oh, I love that males mentor younger males. We didn't know that until recently. Based on postures and pair swims, there's about seven or eight places around each dolphin's body called pair swims, where they'll be young males and young females use pectoral fin contact differently, but then when they get older, they use them for the same reasons.

[A]

So as I'm hearing all of this, first of all, I love the fact that your entire life really as an adult devoted to understanding this one particular species and how they communicate. It's advancing science in such a broad, broad way. It's so mightily impressive. And I love that your dad got in on the game early on too, and helped you build this technology, which is stunning. Let's fast forward today to the threats that face killer whales. So much of it's due to misinformation. Right. That has to make a scientific expert such as yourself just little bothered, maybe even angry over the misinformation because we have killer whales in crisis now because people are using a political agenda against an animal and their lives are at risk. So share with us a little bit about your thoughts about that, because this is real Present day knowledge that you've created that can solve these incredible ethical and political challenges.

[B]

Well, to promote my message when I started, just quick couple sentences of history when, when I graduated. At that time, academia universities did not want outreach. They didn't want somebody to come into their academic halls who also did outreach with the general public through maybe zoos and aquariums. That's changed now. You know, 30 years later, everybody wants that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But because of that, I chose not to go the academic route. I founded and direct my own non profit, which allowed me to have an umbrella to do my research.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But also to do the public education, the outreach.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So we do this in three different ways. We take people into the field with us, they come on eco tours. We work with eight universities to bring students on field courses. So they get hands on experience. Hands on. They learn how we collect the data, how we analyze the data, they get to meet the animals, which. An interpersonal connection is something that is really important to form and that's the, that's the best way. So having people come out and meet the animals. My husband would not agree with me when I say that media is the second best. But that's the image to share that information, to bring that out to people, to say, look, this is what we're learning to show cinematically what we have with the animals and to get people interested in what's going on. And that we do through the dolphin communication website, through our webinars. We have deep dives, we have dolphin lessons, they're all free. We have podcasts, we share this information, we have video programs on our website. And then also through the written word, through, through. I have a children's book, I have an adult book. And through chapters, getting the information. Because everybody learns differently. Yes. So you have an in person, you have the other. And zoos and aquariums allow us to give that personal connection so people can meet these animals up close and learn.

[A]

About them and fall in love with them. Exactly. And then choose to protect them.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Always say, you know, there are situations due to misinformation and due to not enough people understanding and particularly not aware of your research, where killer whales in particular are facing a death sentence this very day. And this is in France due to a political movement that's so out of line with rational thinking. And not just rational thinking, it's thinking with the heart. What do you think about these killer whales being left stranded in this political. Or caught in the middle of a political quagmire in France?

[B]

Well, I believe that the People that have put these animals in this position don't have the best interests of the animals at heart, because if they did, the animals would have been moved.

[A]

I think that's very important. The animals would and should be moved today.

[B]

And I actually have studied those animals. I've studied the. We did some cognitive work on creativity and a reading study with the animals. I've observed them. I know them, and I.

[A]

And you love them.

[B]

I love them, yes. And I would have hoped, I think, that Laude park is the perfect place for them to be, to be in that social group. That would be a great. I mean, I can see it. I'm hoping for it to be there for them because we're seeing these animals. I'm studying the Loro park animals, and I see interactions and behaviors that match what I've seen for the small dolphins that match what we're seeing for the animals in the wild. And so they're well cared for. They have the best welfare animals to people to take care of them, to look at them. Animals in managed care get health care.

[A]

These incredible wells that are caught in a political crisis rooted in misinformation. And we know there's an easy solution and path forward. But a lot of people in Robin's Nest listening today may not know about these wells, These precious, beautiful killer whales that I know you love and you know personally why they are in crisis. What's going on. Can you share with everyone in the nest today what is going on with these wells in France?

[B]

I will share what I know from my perspective outside of France. Wiki and Kehoe, an adult female and.

[A]

Her son, Wiki and Keiko. I love the names Wiki and Keigo.

[B]

Yep. They. They. I've studied them. We did creativity studies with them. Reading, study. It was. They both learn differently, but it's very cool to watch them and to see how they. They interact. And whatever happened with the park, the park is closed. I don't know all of the politics that went in with that. And originally the animals were set to move to one location, and that didn't come through because detractors. I try not to use the term activist because I look at activism as.

[A]

A positive thing and I'm an activist and so are you.

[B]

Yes. And so people who are against zoos and aquariums, detractors, lobbied the governments of France and Spain and said, no, no, no, they shouldn't go there. They should go to a sanctuary, which doesn't exist.

[A]

There is no sanctuary. There's no sanctuary, and it's not even scientifically. Possible to build one in enough time for these animals to be able to live.

[B]

Correct. So for me, in everything that I've learned and watched this, I was very excited when I learned that they could be going to Loro Parque, because I thought, this is perfect. The animals there are in good care. They are American Humane, Global Humane certified. They are Global Humane certified. I've observed them. We're studying the animals there. This is their home. This should have been their forever home. And I still hope that they can go there. I think that that would be the perfect place for them. They can have a social group with the animals that are there.

[A]

But the bottom line is the government stopped their ability to move these animals. They stopped that move from happening. And so now the whales lives are in limbo. The park is shut down, it's deteriorating. These wells need to move or they will die. Basically, the French government has sentenced them to a death sentence if they don't move them soon. We're talking soon so they get the care that they need and they so deserve. And we both know, because we've been there, Lower Parquet is the best place for these whales to have a forever loving home. And we all want a forever loving home for all animals. That's why we listen to Robin's Nest and we're passionate animal advocates. We want these animals rescued. And we have to let our voices be heard to the French government. And I know we're going to work on that together, you and I, this week. We're going to be riding and reaching out to everyone who will listen to us in the French government and say that these animals are on death row and we have to give them a second chance at life. We have to get those whales removed, these incredible killer whales moved to Laura Parquet. And remember, killer whales are dolphins. And we're talking to the world's top dolphin Expert right here, Dr. Kathleen Dasinski. Thank you, Kathleen. Please continue to share your story. I get so passionate about this. I'm so sorry.

[B]

No, I'm right there with you. I don't think politics should be allowed to impact animal welf.

[A]

That's the killer line for tonight. Politics should not impact animal welfare because politicians do not have the scientific base of expertise to say what's best for an animal.

[B]

Correct. I agree. Couldn't agree more. That's wonderful. And with all that we're doing, we're learning about these animals. The important thing is to share it, to get what we know about these animals out in as many conservation initiatives as possible. Because what we learn about the animals in our care can then be applied to animals who are in distress in the wild.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. So I know you've got a huge agenda of work ahead and you have an area that needs proper, scientifically based information and humane solutions, which you're offering now. You're a finalist for the International Prize for Species conservation and certainly you're working to conserve species in a huge way. What does it mean to you to be a Kiesling Prize finalist this year?

[B]

I'm honored to be a finalist to be recognized for my decades of work. It's an added encouragement that we're doing the right thing. The recognition will expand our reach through the dolphin communication project. I like to say that our reach is small but mighty. And so by collaborating with Global Humane and collaborating with the Kiesling family and the Kiesling Prize, it means we can reach that many more people and share this message and get everybody on board.

[A]

Absolutely. And you're sharing the message that science offers meaningful and impactful solutions?

[B]

Yes, most definitely. Most definitely. We learn from the animals in our care. We can watch moms and calves 24, 7, before, during and after the birth. We understand the assessment of the animals. We can look at them and say, what do they need to thrive, to survive? And thrive. That's information that can be taken from managed care and applied to the critically endangered killer whales. We can to look at what's going on with them. What do we need to help them survive? And that's only possible because of managed.

[A]

Care and certainly because of your work studying populations in the wild.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And in managed human care. Dr. Dasinski, always a pleasure to have.

[B]

You here in robustness.

[A]

Thank you for your leadership and your passion. And let's make sure that we find a forever loving for these incredible wells in crisis in France. Thank you for all you do.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of Robin's Nest. Please, like, subscribe and follow and thanks for all you do to build a more humane world.