D (3:36)

The Global Polio Eradication Initiative was launched in 1988 and I really came on board in 2000. So 25 years of working on polio eradication at Rotary.

B (3:47)

That's Carol Pandak. She's the director of Rotary's Polio plus program through the Global Polio Eradication Initiative, or gpei. Rotary works in partnership with the World Health Organization, you, unicef, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, gavi, the Vaccine alliance and the Gates Foundation.

D (4:09)

So I've been with the Global Polio Eradication Initiative and Rotary through most of its history, which is also kind of mind blowing for me. And it's interesting how the program has evolved over the years and how the role of Rotary has evolved, becoming a very influential partner in the initiative, especially being recognized for our advocacy and our fundraising efforts. So I think our role has changed quite significantly.

B (4:36)

Carol has traveled the world, participated in immunization campaigns and regularly met with everybody involved in the polio eradication effort, including Rotary's members in the field.

D (4:49)

It's just inspirational to see the work that's being done.

B (4:52)

There have been fewer than 25 cases of wild polio virus to date this year, two of which are in Afghanistan, with the remaining cases in Pakistan.

D (5:03)

We're looking pretty good as far as making progress this year. The goal is to build upon that progress so that we end the year with fewer cases than we had last year.

B (5:16)

Smallpox is the only disease that has ever been eradicated. Folio eradication is a monumental public health initiative and its final phase has proven to be the toughest. The GPEI operates in extremely fragile environments, often amid conflicts, natural disasters, lack of political will by national governments and weak health infrastructure, all of which make reaching every child with life saving vaccines immensely difficult. Operational challenges, such as barriers to access to families, community hesitancy and logistical gaps routinely documented.

D (5:58)

The GPEI is constantly adapting because the world is a complicated place and things change, the geopolitical situations change. I think just our strategy is working in conflict areas, negotiating days of tranquility in areas of conflict, and most recently Gaza is a great example of that. Where there was polio virus detected in Gaza and the program was able to negotiate this humanitarian pause so children could be vaccinated against polio, noting that they're living in very difficult circumstances. You have to adapt in order to make progress in this very complicated world.

B (6:34)

In which we live in, the path to polio eradication is not linear. Well, there will be debates along the way. She says these debates are essential in adapting the program to ensure its success.

D (6:48)

The Global Poll Eradication Initiative has its eyes wide open to the challenges that exist. And we recognize and acknowledge that there are significant challenges in the program. It's a big program, right?

B (7:03)

One such challenge is getting the oral polio vaccine to every child. The oral polio vaccine, or opv, is endorsed by the world's leading health organizations. Experts agree that it's safe and effective and its benefits far outweigh any risks. Since 1988, more than 20 million cases of paralysis have been averted thanks to the large scale administration of OPV. That is 20 million people who are walking today who would otherwise have been paralyzed. Most countries that are polio free today use the vaccine to stop the virus, including India, which was long thought to be the most difficult place to end polio. Stopping the use of this vaccine would undermine that barg one progress. Even still, since 2021, the GPEI has been rolling out a more genetically stable version of the oral vaccine. And that's led to a marked decline in new variant polio outbreaks. Carol is clear. Polio comeback is not a vaccine failure. It is a failure to vaccinate. And until we achieve a polio free world, generations of children, including here in the US are at risk.

D (8:20)

I'll reference a quote that Mike McGovern used not too long ago on a call. This is our moonshot.

B (8:27)

Mike McGovern is the chair of Rotary International's polio plus committee and he represents Rotary on the Polio Oversight Board. They govern the Global Polio Eradication Initiative Partnership and chairs its Finance and Accountability Committee. I recently sat down with Mike McGovern to discuss the challenges of the polio eradication campaign, what Rotary's work looks like on the ground and the last mile on the race to end polio. Mike, thanks very much for speaking with us. You've been a member of the Rotary Club of South Portland, Maine, Cape Elizabeth, Maine since 1986. How's Rotary's commitment to global health changed over the years?

A (9:11)

It's changed in terms of the technology we use, some of the approaches we use. But in the end it's all about the same thing that it was in 1986. It was that some kids in the world were getting polio. In other countries they weren't getting polio. And Rotarians first decided in the Philippines. It just wasn't fair that their kids were Getting polio. So they asked for a grant from the Rotary Foundation. Rotary provided one. Rotarians then saw, if we can do this in the Philippines, we can do it in the rest of the world. So we've kept that same approach, working with the governments, working with the health authorities locally. It's basically the same approach for the last 40 years. But obviously other things come up. There's vaccine hesitancy, there's new virus strains, there's new vaccine availability. We work with others to convince parents to present their kids for vaccinations and we see great results.

B (10:01)

How did you get involved personally? What touched you?

A (10:04)

I joined Rotary, as you mentioned, in October of 1986. And it was right when Rotary was doing its first big fundraising campaign. I was 30 years old. I was asked to come early to meet with a member two weeks after I joined. And he said, michael, we're doing this campaign to end polio. We want $1,000 from you. I was not a person that usually gave $1,000 to anything at that point. I was just.

B (10:27)

1986.

A (10:27)

That was 1986.

B (10:28)

$80 million.

A (10:29)

Oh, yeah. It was starting my career. And anyway, I agreed to give 500 to polio, but I also agreed to give 500 for other things that the Rotary foundation does. It was a three year pledge and that was my first involvement. And then I did different offices in Rotary that you learned more about what Rotary was doing. And, you know, eventually I ended up in 2014 as the chair of Rotary's International Polio Plus Committee.

B (10:53)

And I want to ask you about that because you serve as Rotary's representative for the Global Polio Eradication Initiatives Oversight Board.

A (11:00)

That's right.

B (11:01)

What role does Rotary have? It's a special position.

A (11:05)

Yeah, it's very interesting. That's where Rotary works directly with who, with unicef, with Gabi, the Vaccine alliance, with the Gates foundation, and with the US Centers for Disease Control. We also have a couple of members on the board who. One represents Saudi Arabia and one the European Community. And we're the board of directors for this initiative which last year provided opportunities for kids to be vaccinated 926 million times. And we're the ones that help determine the budgets and all the other. And, you know, we're pleased Rotary has a representative, but it's clear they see Rotary as the heart and soul of this effort. They see us as integral to getting support from governments and the other things we do. So we do different things. Later this week, I'm headed to Pakistan and we'll be meeting with the Gates foundation, the government, the prime minister, the head of the army, the different health authorities. And we're making a big investment. Rotary. We want to make sure there's accountability. We want to make sure that the program is operating the way it should be in every country.

B (12:05)

And tell us about the whole idea of partnerships, the importance of so many people working from different vantages.

A (12:11)

You know, everyone brings different skills and talents. It's everything from the public health knowledge, the laboratories that need to happen. UNICEF's very involved in vaccine delivery. The Gates foundation is far more involved than just giving money. They have many operational experts and others who contribute. But Rotary was founded on the basis of individuals from different occupations. It's really been the strength of Rotary for all this time is that we don't have everyone who thinks alike and has the same skills and talents. And that's what this polio partnership is about. Anyway. We were the ones that asked who, the World Health Organization, to get involved. We were the ones that asked UNICEF at the time. It was a long time ago, Rotary was thought of as basically men who eat lunch. Obviously, because of our work with polio and because we've changed drastically and for the good. You know, it's all of that combination of working together. Rotarians. We have an issue in a local community anywhere in the world, we will contact the local Rotarians. Will you go talk to your local officials and get them to do the vaccine program? We're extremely effective in advocacy in, you know, all of the 35,000 or more communities that we're in, helping to ensure the vaccines are delivered in a way that they're effective. And, you know, the cold chain that you have to keep the vaccines cold. We do an awful lot of work in the background that most people don't see.

B (13:32)

Take us around the world a little bit. Tell us about a couple of places you've been, what you've seen on the ground, what that looks like.

A (13:38)

I've been to a lot of different places. You know, in Nigeria, I remember going into neighborhoods where the poorest people lived. Was in Mozambique a couple years ago, we had an outbreak there, and they were dealing with cholera as well. I've never been to Afghanistan for various reasons. I'm an American citizen. Awkward place to go to these days. But, you know, I've been to Pakistan about 10 different times. And just seeing the frontline workers and their courage, their willingness to go in places that are unsafe, you know, unfortunately, just this last week, I got notice of. It was over a couple months, we lost five frontline workers. Not Rotarians.

B (14:12)

Five.

A (14:13)

Five. One of them died of natural causes at a polio meeting, but the others were an ied, three of them. And another one was in an accident while delivering polio vaccines. Unfortunately, that happens too much. But it just shows why there's a few places that we haven't been able to finish this. There's people who want to see the government's not in control. It's not so much they're against vaccines, but it's just a target. You know, most of the time the target is security workers. It's what makes it challenging and it's sad when you hear about it.

B (14:42)

Tell us about getting to. God willing, it'll be the last couple of miles to polio eradication. Now, what's it look like?

A (14:49)

We think we're already in the last mile. You know, we have reduced the cases by 99.9% over the years. The two countries still with this wild polio endemic are Pakistan and Afghanistan. But even in those countries, it's very small areas of the country. Next week I'll be in Peshawar, Pakistan, which is the epicenter where the cases are. Southern kp, they call it. Convincing the local health officials and making sure there is the security, that's a huge issue. And everywhere you go there'll be a couple of individuals who, you know, don't want to see it happen. But it's that it's making sure the financing. We have some challenges now with the Gavi alliance isn't getting the money that they need. The World Health organization has cut 25%, UNICEF about 25%. So it's really up to Rotary, the Gates foundation, to continue to work and to find other places. So that's the challenge. The other thing is to keep Rotarians engaged. Rotarians seek to raise $50 million a year from our own sources. And then that's matched 2 to 1 by the Gates Foundation. So we allocate 150 million. The money we do is crucial, but it's a challenge. Rotarians are still generous. Over the course of. Since Rotary started this, Rotarians from raising money in the community and from their own pockets have given $1.5 billion. The Gates foundation now matches what we do. They didn't always on a 2 to 1 basis, and that's about 1.5 billion. So Rotary has allocated $3 billion since the mid-1980s to help eradicate polio. So it's a challenge to keep that going, particularly when the governments aren't stepping forward. Fortunately, through Saudi Arabia has just stepped forward. They pledged $500 million over the next five years. Canada has just pledged 151 million Canadian dollars over the next three years. The U.S. government is still carrying forward the monies that were going to the U.S. agency for International Development for polio. That's 85 million. But that's now in the President's proposed budget to go to the State Department. You know, at the same time the CDC for polio eradication, US CDC receives 180 million and that's currently not proposed for the budget for next year. So it's a huge challenge as we look at the last. Not in the budget. We're working on it, but it's not in the budget right now.

B (17:09)

Well, I think a lot of people want to know about the state of Rotary's commitment at this point when as you outlined for us, there's so many other sources of support that seem to be diminishing.

A (17:21)

Rotary support is unending. You know, we've been at it for 40 years. As I just mentioned it. You know, we have our goals every year. We, if we, if we don't meet them, we find a way to meet them. The goal every year is 50 million. We've done that I think five, six straight years. Not easy. But the Rotarians continue to be generous and the commitment never ends. And then there's the commitment of the Rotarians who were in the countries where we're still doing the work. And I just admire their courage and their tenacity as they try to do the work of encouraging us to reach every last child.

B (17:55)

There was a surge of wild polio cases in 2024 as compared to 2023. And as we speak, there are reportedly two cases in Afghanistan, I believe 11 in Pakistan. This is so far this year in 2025. How does that happen? What needs to be done?

A (18:16)

Several different reasons that happened. I think most of the case increase of wild polio virus cases was in Pakistan. There's a correlation to every four years. There's an election in Pakistan. They fire everyone in charge, they bring in an interim government and then it takes six months to bring in the new people. So it's about a one year process. Every time they have an election, you see a big bump up in the number of cases. And we're now beyond that election period. The government officials are very good qualified. We're seeing the cases going down, we're seeing the environmental samples going down, we test the wastewater. So we think we're on the right track. I certainly hope we're on the right track in Afghanistan. We're working with the de facto government, the Taliban, they are the ones that we need to work with. The polio program have been interesting to work with. We need to work with the government officials wherever we are. We have a health minister there who's very capable, very devoted to public health. But there's been some challenges. We want to go house to house to give polio drops the program and what they suddenly said we could only give it out at mosque. Well, the difficulty is a lot of women can't go to mosque and it's the women mothers that take care. So anyway, individuals within country advocated to the person they called the supreme leader and he's partially reconsidered and said they could do site to site. So now we go down the streets, the lanes, the alleys and we're still getting 90% of the children. We're doing better than we thought we would that are receiving the drops. That was a challenge. But we look at the numbers and you know, Afghanistan we had, you know, I think 18 cases in last year. In the last six months we've only had two in most parts of the country. They're doing great. We're still worried about some areas. That was the increase. It was Afghanistan's situation. Obviously people saw the change in government there did not go smoothly. And it was basically the same issues in Pakistan as well. We also had more vaccine derived cases in Africa and that was a case of routine immunizations going down. It just gave an opening for kids who don't receive vaccines at all. Were coming down with these circulating vaccine derived cases. But those we had in 2020, we had over 1,000 of those. And now we were down substantially last year. So we're headed in the right track on both types of cases.

B (20:32)

We can see the eradication of polio in the time ahead.

A (20:38)

Are we seeing it quickly? Yeah, one, I certainly hope so. And secondly, I think so. If you can reduce cases from 350,000 cases a year down to even 99 of the wild polio virus last year, you can reach the final places, particularly because the final places are so compact and where you need to focus your attention. But in the meanwhile, until we get those places done, we need to continue to vaccinate. Total number of children is a little under 500 million a year. You know, the vaccines cost 14 cents apiece, but to fully deliver the vaccine, the cost of all of it is about a dollar every time we vaccinate a child.

B (21:15)

About a dollar, About a dollar.

A (21:17)

But still it takes, you know, when you look at the volume of the numbers we're doing it. It takes quite a few resources. Yeah. And we, you know, try to, in each place where we work, we try to vaccinate kids two to three times a year because, you know, they need that to get up the immunity. We also work with gavi, the Vaccine alliance, an outfit out of Geneva, and they provide the inactivated polio, which is the shot in the arm. And we're very appreciative of their support. But you know, even as we're taping this, there's reports of a major government in the world is no longer going to fund gavi. So it's all these challenges come up. We've climbed other mountains, we've gotten to the other side and I often do. There's an old children's book called the Little Engine that Could and it was the abandoned train in the back. And I often think of Rotary that way. We are the ones that people don't think we can do it. We're going to get to that other side of the mountain. We're going to, in the book's case, was to bring the toys at the other side mountain. But for us, the other side of the mountain is a polio free world.

B (22:13)

Mike McGovern is chair of the Rotary International Polio Plus Committee. Thank you so much for being with us.

A (22:19)

Thank you very much, Scott. Great to be with you and your listeners today.

E (22:23)

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C (22:42)

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E (22:44)

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B (22:54)

I also spoke with John Hucke, the General secretary and CEO of Rotary International and the Rotary Foundation. John spoke about Rotary's unique role in polio eradication, the big picture of the GPEI strategy and his personal dedication to this particular effort. So good to be with you, Mr. Hugo. Help us understand the role of of NGOs non governmental organizations in global health these days.

E (23:23)

Well, first, Scott, thanks so much for having me. Great to be with you. I think the role of NGOs today is probably more important than ever as we see governments cutting back social services and cutting support for international development issues. I think the role of NGOs is more important than ever really to fill that gap. That's now resulting from cutting back of government funding. For example, Rotary, the organization that I have the privilege of being with, were extremely active in the polio eradication effort and really play a very meaningful role not only in having kickstarted this whole effort back in 1985, but with our significant financial support, where we're giving $150 million a year to the polio eradication effort. I think nonprofits have played and will continue to play an even more important role, particularly in filling the gaps that the governments are either unwilling, are unable to do.

B (24:13)

Let me ask you about the Global Polio Eradication Initiative because it's a public private partnership. What does that actually mean? How does that work?

E (24:22)

Well, as you said, it's a public private partnership. I would say it's the most successful public private partnership in global health, perhaps in history. Back in 1985, Rotary, a nonprofit, not a multilateral institution, not a Ministry of health, but really a, you know, again, a non profit. And 1.2 million Rotarians around the world had the audacity to say, we are going to eradicate a disease from the face of the earth. And Rotary, which was founded in 1905, our first club was established in Chicago that year, was looking for a project to celebrate our 75th anniversary. And so we began vaccinating children in the Philippines. And that was so successful that in 85 we said, Hate, let's see if we can eradicate polio worldwide. Three years later, we were joined by who, CDC and UNICEF to create the Global Polio Eradication Initiative. And more recently, we've been joined by the Gates foundation and gavi, the Vaccine Alliance. And so the success has been absolutely extraordinary. We had 350,000 cases of polio a year. Over 125 countries had polio. When we started this effort Back in 85, we're now down to just two countries, Afghanistan and Pakistan or the wild virus is still circulating. We've eliminated cases by 99.9%. And so we really are on the verge of eradicating the second human disease in history. And so why was the partnership important? Because none of us could go and do it alone. Each partner plays a distinct role and it's that combination of the specialties of each of the different partners. Because, you know, Rotary brings to the table the fundraising, the advocacy, because since we're everywhere and you have a Rotary Club just about everywhere, we're extremely effective at advocating with governments, local governments, national governments to support the polio eradication effort. We were also in an army of vaccinators running around the world vaccinating children. Gates brought the innovation, the funding. CDCs, the virus hunter, WHO, UNICEF, each played a distinct, important role. And working together as a partnership is what really has enabled us to bring the world to the verge of eradicating this disease and help us understand what.

B (26:30)

We would see of Rotary's work on the ground.

E (26:33)

Well, I mean, Rotary is quite an interesting organization. It was, as I said, the first club was established in 1905 in Chicago, and it was really LinkedIn before anyone had ever heard of LinkedIn. And so the idea was to bring business leaders.

B (26:45)

I'm sorry, I just caught that. Exactly.

E (26:47)

It was to bring business leaders together and to help each other professionally. And then about 15 years later, this concept of community service was added to the organization. So Rotary really is the combination of commerce and cause. You would join one of our 46,000 clubs to network professionally, have a good time, but also to give back to the community, whether it's locally, regionally, or globally, for example, in efforts such as polio eradication. And so it's really an organization that now 75% of our Rotarians are outside of the United States, truly global. And that is what allows us to tackle big issues such as polio, but it also allows us to have incredible impact in communities throughout the world, whether it's water and sanitation, literacy, disease prevention, treatment. The community service projects that our Rotary clubs do really spans the gamut.

B (27:37)

Let me ask you about some recent events. Unfortunately, a surge of wild polio cases in 2024 as compared to 2023. Now, at this time of our recording, when you and I are Speaking, there are two reported cases in Afghanistan and 11 in Pakistan so far in 2025. What's particularly challenging about completing this last mile of the polio eradication race?

E (28:04)

Well, polio eradication is all about vaccinating the children. And as you know, Scott, we have an oral vaccine, two drops in the mouth of a child. The beauty of that oral vaccine is that anybody can be a vaccinator. You don't need to be a health professional. It's really that oral vaccine that has allowed us to really get us to the brink of eradication. And so what that means in practice is you have to physically get to the children. You have to put those two drops in the child's mouth. And so it's not surprising that, let's say, Afghanistan and Pakistan are our last two countries where the wild virus is circulating, because there are countries where that have, you know, security issues, conflict issues, and there are many areas in those countries where we can't get to the children. There's also in some pockets of cultural resistance, a lot of myths have been spread about the polio vaccine. And so the challenge is as simple as we need to physically get to the children and put those two drops in the children's mouths. One of the challenges we're facing is that polio is just one of many needs that these communities have. And so they're now saying, well, wait a minute, you're coming in with polio drops, but we need water, we need sanitation, we need nutrition. And so we're trying now to. Or we have been adding, in addition to vaccinating children for polio, we're adding vitamin A, we're adding additional global health interventions to just vaccinating the children to increase the uptake of vaccinations. And also with the. In Afghanistan there, they've prohibited house to house vaccinations. And that's a real problem because we really need. That's the most effective way to get to the children is really to go house to house and vaccinate. But we will get there. We're on the verge. And when we do, and I think that's one of the things that motivates me in this job, is that when we eradicate polio, we will have left a legacy for as long as mankind inhabits the earth. And that's a very powerful thought, Scott, think about that. If you eradicate polio, no child will ever again have to deal with this disease as long as mankind exists. It's kind of a cool thought.

B (30:01)

Yeah.

E (30:02)

Indeed.

B (30:03)

I understand that you are a very dedicated biker, and that is all tied up with your efforts to combat polio.

E (30:13)

I am a very avid cyclist, and it's been great that I've.

B (30:16)

I said biker. Was that the wrong cyclist?

E (30:20)

Probably. Cyclist.

B (30:20)

Biker.

E (30:21)

Biker. Gives the impression of, you know, leather and boogie. Yeah, exactly.

B (30:25)

All right. Yeah. I beg your pardon. Let me try it again. I understand you're a very avid cyclist.

E (30:29)

I am a very avid cyclist, and I've been able to kind of link that to our efforts to eradicate polio. You know, back in. In 2012, I was at our annual Rotary convention in Bangkok. And as you may know, Scott, we hold a convention every year somewhere around the world of Rotarians. We get anywhere from 15 to 45,000 attendees. I was on a water taxi in Bangkok, and there's a group of Rotarians from Tucson, and they came up to me and said, oh, John, you're really into Cycling. And, you know, there's this bike ride called the El Tour de Tucson, you know, 100 miles around the perimeter of Tucson. And we've started a few years ago to use this bike ride as a fundraiser for polio. And they get about anywhere from six to 9,000 riders that participate. And a lot of organizations use it to raise money for their causes. And they said, yeah, we're raising about ten grand a year. Can you join us and help? And I said, absolutely. Happy to do it. The next year I went out, we put the Rotary fundraising machine into gear. That year we raised 250,000. The next year we raised several million. The next year, even more than that. So I've been going back now for 12 years and we've raised a little over $70 million now for polio eradication through that bike ride. Now it's a tough ride, it's a hundred mile ride. And it forces me to really, to really stay in shape.

B (31:40)

I'm sorry, I think we had a technical problem. You said it was a hundred mile ride.

E (31:44)

It's a hundred mile ride.

B (31:45)

You got to stay on a bicycle for 100 miles.

E (31:47)

I do stay on a bicycle for 100 miles. And I take it seriously because you've got Rotarians that'll say, hey, John, if you can break a certain time, I'll double my, double my contribution.

B (31:55)

Oh, mercy.

E (31:56)

So I've got some real motivations. What a motivation to train and to do as well as I can. But it's been just again, great effort and it's been a huge contribution to the polio eradication effort. And it's, and plus it's a lot of fun.

B (32:09)

Help us understand what keeps you going with all of the challenges that are going on in the world right now.

E (32:15)

Well, I think again, Rotary is an extraordinary organization. I like to say there's not a politician in the world doesn't have a Rotarian as a constituent. What it does is it gives us this extraordinary global platform to do good. And if you kind of look at the scope and breadth of, of Rotary, it's absolutely extraordinary. And so one of the challenges we had is how do we quantify the value of what our 46,000 clubs do? We know that centrally through our Rotary foundation, we raise about 500 million a year. But we really didn't have a good grasp of what the value was of the work of our clubs because our clubs are raising money, they're spending it locally, regionally on the various projects that they're involved with. So we hired Johns Hopkins and Harvard, who help organizations like Rotary quantify their global value. And we're at about $2.4 billion a year. You know, we're a considerable force for good. And so the challenge I face is our clubs are, you know, in a way autonomous. And so the question is, how do we keep our organization moving forward in a strategic direction?

B (33:14)

And you want them to be autonomous, you want them to work.

E (33:16)

Exactly. That's part of the beauty of Rotary. And it's really an interesting organization in that we've created a structure whereby we can do global causes such as polio, despite the incredible diversity of Rotary. And yet at the same time, we've got all this bottom up work going on. So it's kind of a great combination of using our global reach to do a significant, let's say, top down project such as polio, but at the same time unleashing 46,000 clubs to make a difference in their communities as they think is best.

B (33:48)

Must be satisfying to know that you can make a difference too, in this world. That must be part of what keeps you going.

E (33:54)

Yeah, I think anybody who works at a nonprofit is you're certainly not there for the money. I mean, I walked away from a very lucrative law career to take this job. And you do it for. You do it for the cause, you do it for the mission. That's one thing I've been struck by the passion and the intensity of our Rotarians to make a difference. And for example, our recent convention in Calgary. What's so great when you walk around is you realize it's like a. It's like a mini UN that we bring people together from all over the world around the United Cause to make a difference. There's no first or second class citizens. All the political tensions that may exist back home are gone. And the Rotarians come together, you know, around the United Cause to serve and to make a difference. And that is very heartwarming and very encouraging in this incredibly divided world that we live in that there are examples such as Rotary, where you can actually bring people together around a shared cost to make a difference and to get past the divisions that seem to be plaguing our world today.

B (34:53)

John Huko, thanks very much, Scott.

E (34:55)

Thank you for having me.

B (34:57)

This episode of the Rotary Voices podcast was produced by J.B. swenson and edited by Wen Wong. Production by Mike Novak and Joe Dassault. I'm Scott Simon. If you enjoyed the show, please rate us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and share it with your friends. The Rotary Voices podcast is produced by Rotary Magazine, the official monthly publication of Rotary International. Thanks for listening.