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‘19 Kids & Counting’ Duggar Son Caught In Parking Lot Watching ‘The Worst Of The Worst’ Toddler CSAM
00:41:11
Oprah Winfrey has just flown the Duggar family, in late 2006, from their isolated farm in Arkansas to Chicago. She covers all accommodations for mom, dad, and their litter of (at the time) 17 kids and counting in exchange for an interview. The Duggars are a well known reality TV family, iconic for their cult-like way of life. They looked like time travelers. A family plucked from the pre-electricity past and dropped in the middle of the big city. Before they can even start filming, an anonymous email in all caps, lands in one of the producer’s inboxes: “…YOU NEED TO KNOW THE TRUTH… [REDACTED] HAS MOLESTED [REDACTED] WHILE [REDACTED] WERE SLEEPING AND THE PARENTS HAVE BEEN HIDING THIS SECRET FOR A LONG TIME…” Oprah takes the tip seriously. She cancels their interview and forwards the email straight to the authorities and a child abuse hot line. The email is later found to be sent by a [redacted] female. And not only that, the sender is right… At least 3 Duggars have been ...
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- [00:00]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Pricing coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. When you're doing it all, you need all the electrolytes. The weather is heating up and the best way to make it through those sweaty summers is Gatorade, which hydrates better than water itself. With new Gatorade Lower Sugar, you can get the amazing hydration you expect from Gatorade, but with no artificial flavors, sweeteners or colors. With 75% less sugar and all the electrolytes of Gatorade Thirst Quencher, you'll be back at your best and ready to take on whatever comes your way. New to the fridge, all the Gatorade electrolytes you love. Try Gatorade lower sugar today. Better. Bing. Badaboo. We get a lot of odd emails. Sometimes we get emails just simply telling us to look into somebody's name. Like, there's no criminal record. There's online discourse. It's just a name. And then we respond and then there's no response back. But that is still probably nothing at all compared to what the producers of the Oprah Winfrey show likely got when it was on air December 2006. The Oprah show just flew out. An entire family, almost two dozen family members, all the way from Arkansas to Chicago. They're paying for the airfare, hotel costs, food costs, everything, which is a lot of money for almost 20 people. But the family that they're bringing in to interview, they're famous. They're the Duggars. They have their own TLC reality show. They're all about good Christian values and procreating. Like, there is a mandated law that if you don't pop out a child every other summer out of you, you will be struck down by lightning. They're naturally a very interesting sight. The girls in the family all have curly hair, wear long dresses. They look like they're stepping out of a movie from decades ago, before cities had running water. But before they can even step foot onto the production stage for the Oprah Winfrey show, before they can even do a sound check, an email lands in one of the producer's inboxes. Before you air the Duggar family from Arkansas, you need to know the truth. They are not what they seem to be. Joshua, the eldest son of the 19 kids, has molested his siblings while they were sleeping and the parents have been hiding the secret for a long time. Jim Bob the Father lies to his church and his friends to make him look good. At this moment he is in trouble with the church for lying about Joshua and the things that concern the way the church members reacted. I think that you should know the truth before they make a complete fool out of you and your show. They have been on TV before and come across as a perfect family which couldn't be further from the truth. They jump from show to show to receive gifts for their family to make them look really good. Please consider this and confront them about their secret Whoa. The Oprah Winfrey show they cancel the Duggar interview Even though they're already waiting for the Oprah Winfrey show in Chicago ready to film. They cancel it and then they forward this email to the local police station. This email from 2006 is going to kickstart a decade long secret ordeal that ultimately implodes and results in multiple arrests. At least three Duggars have been arrested thus far, one police officer in connection with the case, mostly all for crimes against children. Whoever emailed Oprah was right. The Duggars were hiding something. We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support NEC mech, the national center for Missing and Exploited Children. They are the nation's largest and most influential child protection organization. This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's growing team of dedicated researchers and we'd also like to thank you guys for your continued support. As always, full show notes are available@rootten mangopodcast.com A lot of disclaimers with this case. There's religious trauma, grooming, incest, csam, csa. So please watch with caution. This is going to be a multi episode series so please take breaks whenever you feel overwhelmed. All information is publicly available. Any netizen comments, speculations, theories or allegations are opinions of netizens and statements and quotes have been condensed for brevity. This is going to be a massive deep dive. So with that being said, let's get started. Let me quickly run this is also part three of the audio for the Duggar Empire Fall. So let me just run you through the Joshua Duggar timeline. The Duggar family are about to go on Oprah when her production team get an email that something nefarious has happened in the family home that the eldest child, the first son, Joshua Duggar, has been molesting his younger sisters.
- [04:56]
B
Did you say this is 2006.
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A
Yes, 2006.
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B
Very early on.
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A
Right. And then from then nothing. The letter made it to the Oprah team and it's not made public because I'm sure the Oprah team would have been sued and back for that. Though the production crew, they do forward this email to the rightful police department that would have jurisdiction. But the public don't know any of this. The show 19 Kids and Counting continues to air the happy, solidly wholesome. At least the Duggar parents are very much bigoted. Okay. Some of the children, I'm sure they have different views, I don't know. But on the show they're wholesome and their biggest problem is making enough dinner for their 20 plus member family. The public does not know that there are crimes against children being committed in the family home. It's not until 2015, almost 10 years later, that that information is made public. Intouch magazine does a FOIA request and they do an expose. They reveal that they were able to get their hands on the police files from back in 2006. When the police investigate the. After the failed Oprah interview, the police document goes public. The sisters who were abused by Joshua were very upset that the police file was made public because people are guessing which sister was the victim. In the redacted files. They were able to put the ages together, the length of the redacted names, and it was pretty easy to figure out who had been victimized by Joshua.
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B
Okay. And they don't want that information public?
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A
No. So while a few of the sisters have publicly spoken out about it, I'm going to be very vague in some of the details. So it's hard to pinpoint who was a victim. But let's run through the timeline. Jim Bob Duggar, the family man, Christian, who wants capital punishment for crimes like incest, first learns that Joshua has been assaulting his sisters, touching his sisters while they were asleep. This is back in 2002. He figures this out. Joshua is 14.
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B
Okay.
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A
Joshua is 14. 2002, Jim Bob finds out. He does not report this to the police. A few months later, Joshua admits again that he's been molesting yet another sister. So the parents decide that they're going to discipline him privately at home, but nothing else. No call to the police, nothing. They will later report it, but not right now. Instead, Jim Bob punishes Joshua, and at the same time, he's running for the Republican Senate seat in Arkansas, and he's talking about how incest needs to be a capital crime. And the next year, in 2003, the Duggar parents are made aware of two more incidents where he molests a victim who is awake and sitting on his lap. Then around the same time, in the laundry room, he later puts his hand up another victim's dress. Jim Bob goes to the church. He asks the church leaders for the best course of action because he doesn't know how to prevent this from happening again. The church elders are like, oh, yeah, he needs help. You gotta send him away. Jim Bob sends him to this counseling camp. Or at least that's like what Jim Bob tells the police, that it's a Christian counseling program where he had to do manual labor and work with counselors, which turned out not to even be a counseling camp. It was just like a fellow Christian who owned a home remodeling business. Not that I would even think a counseling camp would suffice, but it's just some church friend. When he gets back, remember Jim Holt? Joshua Duggar was supposed to court Jim Holt's oldest daughter, Kaylee. Everyone was like, oh, yeah, they're definitely gonna get married, because Jim Bob and Jim Holt are besties. They're both politicians. They both have a trillion children, and their son and daughter are absolutely. They're the same age. They're gonna get married. Well, out of nowhere, Jim Holt is like, I'm not friends with Jim Bob anymore. I'm not talking about Jim Bob. My daughter will never be around Jim Bob's kids anymore. So, no, fuck Jim Bob. And everyone's like, what happened? It was this, at this moment that Jim Bob tells Jim Holt, hey, this is what my son's been doing, and we're trying to remedy it by sending him to this counseling program. Wow.
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B
He volunteered that information.
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A
Yeah. And Jim Holt is like, that's actually crazy. You need to take him to the police. This is a literal crime that you actually advocate against when you're trying to run for office. So, like, you need to take him to the police. That they do. They take Joshua to the police, and they choose a very specific officer by the name of Joseph Hutchins. He's a former state trooper, but he's now in prison, federal prison, for the next 56 years. For CSAM the officer also.
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B
Yeah, but they didn't know that. Right. When that happened.
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A
That's what they say.
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B
So what. What do you mean by they take it to.
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A
No. So Joseph Hutchins was a close friend, it seems, of the family. Hmm.
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B
Okay.
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A
Or at least very friendly with the family.
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B
So what is the police doing with Josh?
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A
So Joseph Hutchins gives Joshua A very stern talking to. And that's it.
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B
What?
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A
Joseph Hutchins, also, he is in prison right now, and he will come out to state that. Well, actually, Jim Bob lied to me. He told me it was just one time. If I had known it was multiple times, I would have written him up and done something about it. But he told me it was one time. So I gave him a stern talking to, essentially like that. But Hutchins, like I said, is a close family friend, gives him that stern talking to. I mean, of what could happen if he continues such behavior. And Hutchins is like, well, there's nothing else I can do about it. So for the next three years since that point, the Duggars focus on getting famous, making millions of dollars, showing their very safe, very loving, wholesome family of children who all live together while there were reported crimes inside the house. And then 2006, three years after reporting it to the police, they show up in Chicago for the Oprah Winfrey interview. And the producers get an email that something nefarious is happening in the house. A formal investigation starts. The family fly back to Arkansas. They relay all the stuff that's happened in the past few years, and the Police determine in 2006 that the time in which they could have pressed charges has expired. They can't do anything about it. Everything is out in the open. Everyone is. No one is negating that this happened. It's just they can't do anything about it. And if you're wondering, how did somebody email Oprah? So the identity of the emailer is a little bit vague right now, but there were two emails sent. One to the police station directly, and then one to the Oprah Winfrey Show. And it seems like it all starts with a letter inside of a book. The In Touch reports. The Duggars told police that at the time Josh was accused of and admitting to these sexual acts, a family friend, aware of what had happened, had written down, you know, in this little piece of paper letter what he knew of Josh's actions. That letter was then placed inside of a book and then forgotten about. And then just recently in 2006, the book had been loaned out to someone else with the letter in it. And that person read the letter and started talking to all the church community members about what they found in the book of this letter. And somebody emailed Oprah.
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B
That's insane.
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A
Yeah. Yeah. So in 2006, mainstream media, the press, the public, they still don't know about any of these accusations, these allegations, except there's a few Whispers on forums that something weird is happening with Josh Duggar and he's not a golden boy. But a lot of these whispers are coming from people that are in that same church community in Arkansas. They don't have proof. It's just like an Internet whisper. Nothing is confirmed. 2015 InTouch gets their hands on that police file and they decide to metaphorically let the hell gates open and release them to the public. They reveal that Joshua was 15 years old when he molested his younger, much younger siblings and committed at least seven acts of sexual molestation. It alleges that he would go from sister to sister because they all the girls would sleep in one common room, all the guys would sleep in a common room and he would molest them. Jim Bob and Michelle argued that Joshua apologized to the victims and they had forgiven him. So what? What's crazy is what follows after is almost not, but almost as alarming as the original reports. The family released statements now, side note, in 2015, that's when the Ashley Madison leak is also occurring. So Joshua is married. He and his wife, Anna Duggar, have four kids, one of whom is born during the midst of all of this. In 2015, she gives birth. While all of this is happening, the In Touch expose goes live. Then the Ashley Madison leak happens. Wow. But Jim Bob and Michelle, they write back, 12 years ago, our family went through one of the most difficult times of our lives. When Joshua was a young teenager, he made some very bad mistakes and we were shocked. We had tried to teach him right from wrong. That dark and difficult time caused us to seek God like never before. Even though we never choose to go through something so terrible, each one of our family members drew closer to God. We pray that as people watch our lives that they see that we are not a perfect family. We have challenges and struggles every day. It is one of the reasons we treasure our faith so much, because God's kindness and goodness and forgiveness are extended to us even though we are so undeserving. Josh writes in his statement, 12 years ago, as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably, for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret.
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B
Is this the same response to the Ashley Madison post or a separate one?
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A
A separate one. So this one comes first and then Ashley Madison comes next. I heard others, including my family and close friends. I confess this to my parents who took several steps to help me address the situation. We spoke with the authorities where I confessed my wrongdoing and my parents arranged for me and those affected by my actions to receive counseling so he Just like goes down the. I sought forgiveness. Christ forgave me. So I'm thankful for God's grace, mercy and redemption. Anna Duggar, Joshua's wife and the mother of their four children, who the world thinks is just finding out about the fact that he molested his sisters. She makes a statement. I can imagine the shock many of you are going through reading this. I remember feeling that same shock. It was not at the point of engagement or after we were married. It was two years before Josh asked me to marry him. Josh shared his past teenage mistakes. I was surprised at his openness and humility, and at the same time, I didn't know why he was sharing it for Josh. He wanted not just me, but my parents to know who he really was, even every difficult past mistake at that point. And over the next two years, Joshua shared how the counseling he received changed his life as he continued to do what he was taught. She says that she felt comfortable marrying Josh because he was someone who had gone down a wrong path and had humbled himself before God and those whom he had offended. Someone who had received the help needed to change the direction of his life and do what is right. I want to say thank you to those who took time over a decade ago to help Josh in a time of crisis. Your investment changed his life from going down the wrong path into doing what's right. If it weren't for your help, I would not be here as a wife celebrating six and a half years of marriage. To a man who knows how to be a gentleman and treat a girl, thank you to all of you who tirelessly work with children in crisis. You are changing lives and I'm forever grateful to all of you. That's just not how it works, okay? A lot of people think that. Anna Duggar's reaction, Jim Bob, Michelle, Joshua Duggar. Are they living in the same reality as we are? This is not the kind of statement that you release in a situation like this. Like this is not normal tlc. There's talks of them canceling their show. They stop all reruns of 19 Kids and Counting. Advertisers start backing out. Not of just 19 kids and counting, but of the TLC network. People rightfully fucking pissed off. How dare you preach family values and use it as a way to justify being homophobic, transphobic against women. And then you're what, Protecting a predator in your own home? And then the interview drops. 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It's basically how my niece is learning Chinese, the way language is meant to be learned. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit Rosetta Stone.com rotten today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language that's right for you. Go to rosetta stone.com rotten now and begin your language learning journey. Are you tired of spending just hundreds on crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees and quote unquote free perks that cost you more in the long run then a premium wireless plan from mint mobile for 15 bucks a right for you? Bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. When I made the switch to Mint, everything was so easy and completely online with my previous carrier. Going into the stores was always so awkward. It's like those stores that don't have a designated checkout desk or a greeter. It's just like a bunch of display tables and then everybody's scattered around. You don't know who to go to, you don't want to interrupt someone. It's just awkward and something I would rather avoid altogether. That's why switching to Mint Mobile was such a win for me. No retail stores, no salespeople. Just an easy sell setup on my own time and a huge savings. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans@mintmobile.com rotten that's mintmobile.com rotten upfront payment of 45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to 15 per month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra C Mint Mobile for details when you're doing it all. You need all the electrolytes. The weather is heating up and the best way to make it through those sweaty summers is Gatorade, which hydrates better than water itself. With new Gatorade Lower Sugar, you can get the amazing hydration you expect from Gatorade, but with no artificial flavors, sweeteners or colors. With 75% less sugar and all the electrolytes of Gatorade Thirst Quencher, you'll be back at your best and ready to take on whatever comes your way. New to the fridge, all the Gatorade electrolytes you love, try Gatorade lower sugar. Today, The Duggars decide in the heat of this PR crisis, they are going to sit down for an hour long interview with Megyn Kelly, then with Fox News. So that's when Megyn Kelly was an anchor on Fox News to share their side of the story.
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B
Who's there?
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A
Everyone. So first it's Jim Bob and Michelle sitting side by side, appearing almost with like a strange nonchalant attitude, as if this is just another press tour for one of their many, many specials. But they're here to address the fact that their eldest son was molesting his younger sisters in their sleep inside their house and they did nothing about it. Jim Bob starts We went through one of the darkest times that our family has ever gone through and our son Josh came to us on his own and he was crying and he had just turned 14 and he said that he had actually improperly touched one of our daughters. Michelle interjects, we were shocked. I mean, we were just devastated. I don't think any parent is prepared for trauma like that. And I think we had one ray of hope and that was Josh had a tender conscience and he was the one that came and shared on his own, even though the others really didn't know anything of his wrongdoing. This is something that they do, which is skip over the fact that the police report states that he had a victim on his lap when he molested her and she was very much conscious of. But the Duggar parents, they seem to only like to talk about the fact that Joshua molested his sisters while they were asleep, almost as if, well, they didn't realize what he was doing. So it must be no harm, no foul. It's like a victimless crime. Michelle states that, yes, as a parent, she was devastated because they're trying to raise their kids right, but here's one of their children just making some really bad choices. Jim Bob says he said he was just curious about girls. And he had gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes while they were asleep, and they didn't even know he had done it. And so we went and the first thing we did was protect the girls. Michelle says, it was so important to us as parents to talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened. Well, one by one, as we talked to them, none of them were aware of Josh's wrongdoings. When asked about what they did, Jim Bob says, so I talked to him and we put all kinds of punishments on him. We watched him all the time. I took him to work with me and he just, I mean, we poured our lives into him. He continues, so we had safeguards that protected them from that. But there was another incident where two different incidences where girls were laying, like on the couch and he had touched like over the couch and touched the breasts while the other were asleep. And so it was a very difficult situation. But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they've had similar things happen in their families. And so, I mean, that's freaking crazy. Yeah.
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B
What.
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A
And I mean, this is for us, of course, this is a public shame that our son did this back, back 12, 13 years ago. Now Michelle is looking at Jim Bob with her mouth agape, like, either she's hearing this for the first time or she doesn't like that he's saying this on tv, But I don't know. Jim Bob continues, Wait, what does she
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B
not like him saying?
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A
Just like we talk to a lot of families like, this is. Everyone does this. She's just like. And also the couch, like how someone was on the couch and he had touched someone and she's just like. But Jim Bob continues, again, this was not rape or anything like that. This was like touching somebody over their clothes. There were a couple of incidents where he touch them under their clothes, but it was like a few seconds. And then he came to us and was crying and told us what happened. And it was after that third time he came to us where we really felt like, you know what, we have done everything we can as parents to handle this in the house.
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B
That's crazy what he just said.
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A
Yeah, no, this whole 40 minute interview is.
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B
What is he saying right now? Sounds like he tried to minimize the situation by adding more detail. And the more he says, the worse it becomes.
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A
Yeah, but like, I genuinely think he believes it, which makes it so much worse.
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B
He doesn't care. He doesn't think it's It's a big deal.
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A
They go to the church leaders after the third time. Why not the police? Jim Bob says, you know what? As parents, you're not mandatory reporters. The law allows for parents to do what they think is best for their child. And so we got him out of the home and we sent him down to this place. And that was really probably the best decision that we made through this whole process, because it was at this place. This is the first time Josh had ever been out of the home. The ray of hope was that Josh had came and told us and that his heart was still soft because we wouldn't have known about any of these things if he hadn't came and told us. It gets disturbing to the point that Megyn Kelly becomes the voice of reason, and she's like, hey, can you just talk for a moment as the father of your daughters who are also the victims instead of like the father of the perpetrator? And he says, I was so thankful, though, that Josh came and told us and our girls, even though this was a very bad situation. As we've talked to other families who've had other things happen, a lot of their stories were even worse. I can't imagine my dad saying that. Like, that's actually insane. Michelle talks about it as if it's something that happens in every single person's house. She says, I mean, there were a lot of things that changed in our understanding as parents with this first child, first son to come into this place in his life. There's things that we've learned even since then that I think, you know what, we don't let boys babysit. They don't play hide and seek together. You know, two, don't go off and hide. I mean, there's just a lot of things that we put in place and said. You're not alone in a room with someone else. Always be out visible. And little ones don't sit on big boys laps or people that you don't know or even family members unless it's your daddy. And so there's boundaries that we've learned.
- [24:52]
B
She said, they can't play hide and seeks anymore.
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A
Yeah. If your children cannot play hide and seek together because you're scared that one of them is going to molest the other, you're doing something very wrong.
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C
Whoa.
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A
Megyn Kelly is asking, how could you, you know, unfairly in their view, because this is Fox News, compare transgendered people to child molesters because that's what they've done. Suggest that they're child molesters knowing that you know about, Josh, just to give you a little bit of context, in 2014. So just a year before this interview, Michelle Duggar recorded a RO robocall, which is like, it automatically calls a bunch of residents in the area with an automated message. And in it she says, hello, this is Michelle Duggar. I'm calling to inform you of some shocking news that would affect the safety of northwest Arkansas women and children. The Fayetteville City Council is voting on an ordinance this Tuesday night that would allow men. Yes, I said men. To use women's and girls restrooms, locker rooms, showers, sleeping areas, and other areas that are designated for females only. Basically, transgender woman. She's misgendering them and being fucking transphobic. I don't believe the citizens of Fayetteville would want males with past child predator convictions that claim they are female to have a legal right to enter private areas that are reserved for women and girls. I doubt that Fayetteville parents would stand for a law that would endanger their daughters or allow them to be traumatized by a man joining them in their private space. Parents, what do you. What do you want undressing next to your daughter at a public swimming pool's private changing area? I still believe that we are a society that puts women and children first. Will you speak up for protecting women and children? Call 575-8330 and tell the Fayetteville City Council members and Mayor Jordan to vote no on ordinance 119. Megyn Kelly's. Like you just said, every transgender woman is a fucking child predator that molests children. Meanwhile, they're not. And second of all, and like the fact that Megyn Kelly is the voice of reason, and this is so beyond me. Meanwhile, you're harboring a child predator in your house. Michelle responds with as many neurons firing in her brain as a tater tot. I think that protecting young girls and not allowing young men in general into a girl's locker room is just common sense. But this is different because you injected child molestation into it. So you didn't even just say, oh, this is like you weren't even just transphobic with it. You just called them all child molesters. Jimboob. Jim Bob, the king of semantics, interrupts. I think you actually said pedophile in that sense. A pedophile is an adult that preys on children. Joshua was actually 14 and just turned 15 when he did what he did. And I think the legal definition is 16 and up for being an adult preying on a child. So he was a child preying. On a child.
- [27:40]
B
Okay.
- [27:41]
A
Okay. Exactly what did they do to protect their daughters? All they did from that point on, that we can tell as netizens, is they put locks. So they have this new house that they designed, and on one side you have the boys room. It's a common room with all the boys. The lock is from the outside. Do they lock them in there at night? I guess. Which is. I mean, you're gonna get arrested for that because if there's a fire, they can't get out. Like, that's very dangerous. And then the girls room, you actually have to walk through Jim Bob and Michelle's room to get to the girls room.
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B
Okay.
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A
And if you want to know whose bright idea this interview was, look no further than Chad Gallagher. Chad Gallagher is a political consultant that focuses on crisis management and government relations. He was a large figure in Mike Huckabee's early political career. Earlier, I should say that man is pretty old. He's also the current ambassador to Israel. And he's got, like, a very terrifying aura. He looks like President Snow from Hunger Games. I would not be personally surprised if he kind of acted like it too. But Chad Gallagher gets hired by the Duggars to help manage this full blown PR crisis. The whole goal, according to Jill from her book, is, quote, chad was the one who was setting up the Megyn Kelly interview to try and get it to where TLC would be cool with moving forward with the show. Obviously, Fox News was chosen because the Duggar's viewers are super conservative. But the real reason is they decide that this is gonna be the classic PR stunt response of redirect and deflect. The family's message is going to pivot from Josh's crimes to victimhood. So the Duggar parents are arguing the release of the sealed juvenile records caused the victims to be further victimized. And all the sisters will say that is true. And I want to make it abundantly clear I agree with it. But that being the only takeaway from this case is kind of absurd as parents to the victims as well. And if Jim, Bob and Michelle really cared about the daughters that were victimized by Joshua, this is a very, very sick way of expressing that. Because right after Jim Bob and Michelle get off the counter stools in walk 24 year old Jill and 22 year old Jessa. Mm. They're both married at this point. Jill is a mom. Jessa is expecting, and they're asked by Megyn Kelly, how old were you when Joshua inappropriately touched you? Jill says she was 12. And Jessa was 9 or 10. The whole energy of this interview, I mean, it's pretty clear, at least it feels from the audience perspective that the girls do not want to do this interview, that there is some pressure element to this. I can't speak for Jessa, nor can I speak for Jill, but Jill has come out to say that she felt highly pressured into salvaging the family image. Her husband, Dare Eric, states that Jill's participation in this interview is, quote, I wouldn't describe it as voluntary. It was more like being thrust into a suicide mission. You're gonna be harmed, but they wanted you to take the hit to ensure the show continues because it cannot fail. They would do anything to recoup their investment, even if it meant Jill was collateral damage. Jill says in her book that she's listening to Chad the PR guy, and her dad talking about this Megyn Kelly interview, and the conversation goes something like this. No need for Josh to appear. No way. Maybe Michelle takes the lead. That could work. Who does the interview? It's got to be a female Megyn Kelly. Megyn Kelly would be great. Jill is asked about this in an Amazon prime documentary called Shiny Happy People. And in it, she seems really traumatized by the interview, that she felt pressure, and she felt like she was the only one that could fix it. She says it was like, okay, we need you to fall in line here and do these interviews for the show. Go here, do this thing and that thing to kind of like, rally the troops and get it back together. I didn't want to be there. I wanted to help my parents, and I felt like I was the only one who could do this, and I was the only one who could fill that role. The interview is not something that I'm proud of. If I hadn't felt obligated to do one, you know, one, do it for the sake of the show, and two, for the sake of my parents, I wouldn't have done it. I didn't want to be there. I wanted to help my parents. Jessa has not really spoken out about whether or not she, too, felt pressure from her parents to do the interview, though I do think that the Internet has come to their own conclusion just by the way that they respond to Megyn Kelly's questions. Jessa states in the interview that she thinks the public is blowing the whole thing out of proportion. And again, I'm not like this is what she says, and I think this is why people think that she was also pressured. She says that people are calling Joshua a monster, a child Molester. And she says, that is so overboard and a lie, really. I mean, people will get mad at me for saying that, but I'm like, I can say this. I was one of the victims, so I can speak out and set the record straight here. Like, in Josh's case, he was a boy, a young boy in puberty and a little too curious about girls. And that got him in some trouble and he made some bad choices. But really the extent of it was mild. An inappropriate touching on fully clothed victims. Jill states, we didn't know about it until he went and confessed it to my parents and then they shared it with us. The girls say our situation is so different than most girls in that he's very subtle in that way. Like, he knew in his mind his actions were wrong. And, you know, I had bad intentions, but he was very sly. Like, the girls didn't catch on. It was like, okay, if he catches a girl sleeping, a quick feel or whatever, it was very subtle. And so I think that for us it was like, okay, we realize this is serious. But at the same time, it wasn't like a horror story, this terrible thing where we're just like, oh, my goodness. And I think my parents, they acted. You know, I can say, looking back as an adult now, they handled the situation very well. Jill breaks down in the interview talking about all of this becoming public. And a lot of Internet Internet users agree on a few things. The police report, without better redactions, probably shouldn't have been made public. Even if in touch got this police report, they should have further redacted it so that you could not decipher at all who any of the victims were. There were not enough redactions to safeguard the victims. It was pretty clear who everybody was. And then the Internet agreed. Though there is some debate about whether or not it should have been made public or not. That's up for debate. But they do agree with Jill, like, there should have been better safeguards. However, netizens also notice from a trauma standpoint, the fact that the girls are displaying more trauma about the information being made public while repeating very similar statements as their parents about the actual abuse. It seems like somewhat of an Internet indication of how the parents told the girls to feel, maybe not how they genuinely felt in that moment is what the Internet felt believes it's all made worse by the fact that Josh is in the room while they're being interviewed by Megyn Kelly. Jill writes in her book answering all of Megan's questions with Josh watching from a couch just out of Shot was like having a bandage ripped off a deep and open wound. It was agony. So painful that I didn't really pause to ask why Josh was allowed to be there in the first place. What was worse was the fact that I had hoped it would calm things down. It didn't, she says. I had no boundaries, no sense of what I needed to do to protect myself. I was terrified and didn't want to do the interview at all. But I felt like it was the only way to prove my love and commitment to my parents. I thought I knew how much it would cost me. And the worst part is they do this interview and then the Ashley Madison scandal breaks and Josh, he does like this really shitty apology that we covered in part one and two, and then he just like goes to rehab. Jill says in an interview later. Watching the way that my parents kind of protected my brother, but then used me and some of my sisters, it was hard and is still hard to swallow. That's like one point where I call my dad out about it and I just say, you treat me worse than you treat my brother, my pedophile brother. In the interview, they state, or were encouraged to state. I think by the time that all of that was done, the report was made about the molestation, it was very obvious to everyone, us and our family, friends and officials, that Josh was a completely changed person. He had not gone down that path for years. He was humble before God, before us, before the official officials that were involved. So In Touch breaks the news. This interview airs and then the Ashley Madison leak happens. And then 2015 continues to be a pivotal year for the Duggar family because of Joshua.
- [35:42]
B
So after 2015, this all came out. They are done with the show.
- [35:47]
A
Oh, we're still not even done with 2015.
- [35:49]
B
Oh, oh, I thought you said 20 oh, 2015.
- [35:52]
A
Yeah, because right after the Ashley Madison leak, a lawsuit dropped. Drops, huh? This new year, consider investing in yourself and your future with Acorns. So many people are focused on where their money is today. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. And with the Acorns potential screen, you can find out what your money is capable of. Acorns is easy. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money, even if all you've got is spare change. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus investment. Join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com rotten or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customers, exposure, accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor View important disclosures@acorns.com rotten when you're starting your dream business, the right platform doesn't just help you keep up, it simplifies everything that you can do for millions of businesses. That platform is Shopify. Shopify brings everything under one roof, so they bring in the inventory, payments, analytics and more. All all handled in the same place. A few years ago, my husband, sister in law and I were able to just give back to his grandpa in a really meaningful way thanks to Shopify. It had always just been a dream of his to share his artwork with the world, and with Shopify we were able to make that dream come true. We set up an online store called Grandpa Mingo's Art Studio for a limited time. We're just starting to dip our toes into the business, so without Shopify, we would have had no idea where to start when it comes to launching an online marketplace. And honestly, the biggest thing that I noticed was how much mental space I got back. I stopped dreading the admin side of things and remembered why we even started Grandpa Mango's Art Studio in the first place. Start your business today with the industry's best business partner, Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com rotten go to shopify.com rotten that's shopify.com rotten if you
- [38:08]
D
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- [38:43]
A
Joshua Duggar is being sued by an adult film actress for assault and intentional affliction of emotional distress. Okay, I have to give you some context. Danica Dillon is the adult film actress, but she was also doing a lot of dancing and paid appearances for local clubs. She says that in March of 2015 so earlier this year, Joshua Duggar came in and paid about $600 for a lap dance. And again, this is also shocking. It just adds more elements to the. To the sadistic quality of Joshua Duggar because his wife and kids are wearing $2 flip flops. Like, they never buy anything new. They thrift. I mean, Anna Duggar will only cook him homemade meals to save money, and he's out here paying $600 for a lap dance, and then he offered her $1,500 for full intimacy at a local hotel. In an interview, she says, he's very rough with me. In all honesty, though, it was consensual. It more or less felt like I was being raped. He was tossing me around like a rag doll, forcing me to go into positions. And she says that she has no clue who this guy was. Like, she just thought it was a patron of the club. She was terrified. She runs into him a month later at a second club, and he's, like, profusely apologizing. He walked up to me, and he goes, I'm so sorry for the things that I did. I've been a fan of your movies. You know, I watch your scenes. I thought that this was what you were into. I'm sorry if I ever mistreated you. And I believed him.
- [40:01]
B
Him.
- [40:02]
A
That night. They end up being intimate again. And she says he actually was like a completely different person the second time. I mean, he was just, like, a little rough. So the Duggars, they fight this lawsuit. They first state that Danica Dillon herself stated in the interviews that she never said no, and that technically it was consensual. That technically it was consensual sexual contact for payment. That was her description of it. And then they later state, well, Joshua Duggar was never even in the area that Danica Dillon said that he was. Was. Eventually, Danica Dillon drops the case with prejudice, which means that this is something that she tried to fight, but it means that she can never refile a lawsuit against Joshua Duggars for these crimes, alleged crimes, which has a lot of people at the time believing that Danica Dillon lied because, oh, the Duggars are getting press. Oh, so much is happening with Josh Duggar. She's probably lying because she's an adult film actress. There is no public merit decision saying that Danica Dillon lied. She could have felt overpowered by the Duggars and their millions of dollars that they have ready to fight this case. She could have felt like her career, her profession, everything that she's ever done would be thrown in her face and she'd be dragged through the mud like a lot of victims. Had this actually gone to trial, she could have received hush money payout that is not on record. Many netizens are commenting. I think her story is accurate, but I believe that maybe she got some details wrong and the lawyers punched holes in her story and they convinced her to drop it. I think it's not unexpected or unreasonable that she couldn't remember every single single thing. So like, maybe it wasn't the exact date she said, maybe it wasn't the exact club. That's what netizens are saying. People believe that Jim Bob and Michelle would do anything to get rid of Joshua's quote, unquote problems. But like, what do you expect from the Duggar parents, Jim Bob and Michelle? In a blog article, Michelle Duggar teaches her audience she's giving advice to anybody watching. If you're going to be a newlywed, she writes, number one, this is my advice to all newlyweds. Be joyfully available. Whenever I speak with groups of other moms and married women, I always share this advice. It's been the best advice that I was ever given in regard to my relationship with my husband Jim Bob. She says that one day her friend was telling her about it. You've got to remember this. Anyone can iron Jim Bob's shirt. Anyone can make his lunch for him. He can get his lunch somewhere else. But you are the only one who can meet that special need that he has in his life for intimacy. You're it. You're the only one. So don't forget that he needs you. So when you're exhausted by the end of the day, maybe from dealing with the little ones and you fall into the bed so exhausted at night, don't forget about him because you and he are the only ones who can have that time together. No one else in the world can meet that need. So be available. And not just available, but be joyfully available for him. Smile and be willing to say, say yes, sweetie, I'm here for you no matter what. Even though you may be exhausted and big pregnant and you may not feel like he feels, I'm still here for you and I'm going to meet that need because I know it's a need for you.
- [43:01]
B
Wow.
- [43:04]
A
She says that she will be sharing this information with her daughters who get married. But the crazier part is that this is written after the Ashley Madison scandal and there are insider sources who know the family that said that Anna Duggar was fucking pissed because she thought that Michelle Duggar was saying it was her fault that she was not joyfully available, so Josh Duggar cheated on her, which Michelle Duggar. Why are you even writing blog posts right now? This is not the time for this bullshit. The religious group that they belong to is the iblp, which, more on this later. But it's led by a man named Bill Gothard. The one he thinks Cabbage Patch dolls are evil reincarnated. Cabbage Patch doll. They look like little dolls. Okay, they look cute. But he said that the creator is a warlock who bewitched every single one to carry the soul of the devil. Okay, so, like, you just know where that's gonna go. Bill Gothard goes on to create these wisdom booklets. I mean, this teaches the followers everything. They're all homeschooled. It teaches them what to wear, how to choose the right toothbrush, and detrimentally, what to do in the event of being sexually assaulted. In the wisdom booklet, they have this whole part on what to do, and it asks, what part of your being did the offender damage? And which part of yourself did you damage with that bitterness and guilt? And it asks you to ask the question, why did God let it happen? And maybe because we're all fucking dimwitted. It gives you multiple choice answers and A, immodest dress. B, indecent exposure. Three, being out from protection of your parents. D, being with evil friends. And if you're not at fault, congratulations. This is a learning lesson for you. God compensated physical abuse with spiritual power. What is being mighty in spirit? Greater faith, spiritual discernment, genuine love, wisdom and understanding, Creativity, energy, enthusiasm, joy, inner peace. Peace. It reads that a reason for your bitterness after essay is, he damaged your body. Important step, dedicate your body to God. If you had to choose no physical abuse or being mighty in spirit, what would you choose? So he's saying, after you've been assaulted, you're going to become mighty in spirit. Would you give up not being a saint or would you rather be mighty in spirit? Just to give you an idea of how deeply followers believed in this brain dead concept, and I'm not blaming the people that grew up in this concept because. Because it's for the adults to realize, hey, I'm not gonna teach my kid this. Another higher up in the IBLP leadership ladder, he runs a counseling camp. He says, you know what you're hearing about Josh is a stupid thing that a little boy did in the seminar. Bill Gothard calls it natural curiosity. Had it been as traumatic as they make it out to be, the sisters would have been bitter and the sisters are not bitter. In another wisdom booklet, there's a little Q and A portion that reads, what if the wife is a victim of her husband's hostility? Basically, what if you're a domestic violence victim? The answer reads, there is no victim. If we understand that we are called to suffer for righteousness because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that you should follow his steps. Christ was not a victim. He willingly gave his life for us. Christ's life teaches us how to suffer. Question if my husband violates God's moral laws against our children, shouldn't I at least separate from him in order to protect our children? A father's authority in the home is derived from and governed by the laws of God. If he violates these laws, God uses higher powers to discipline him. More on these wisdom booklets later. But it's very clear Jim, Bob and Michelle, along with their son Joshua, are not at all the wholesome family that they keep trying to shove down our throats on TLC. And that is why in 2015, TLC cancels the show. And that is where I leave you with the audio part three of this case. There's going to be part four that's coming up really quick and that'll be the last and final part, I swear. But there's so much that we have to go through because the whole trial is ridiculous for Josh. Then we have Joseph and Kendra who get arrested within like days of each other. And then their jailhouse calls have recently been put online. So with all of that, stay safe and I will see you in the next video.
- [47:23]
C
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- [47:52]
E
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