A (9:06)

Tell us about your arrest and your first day at the mdc.

C (9:10)

So my first day at MDC Brooklyn was the day after Labor Day. Federal agents came to my apartment. I'd been using drugs. My friends and I had been pooling our money getting drugs over FedEx. We'd broken the drug laws. It was a conspiracy. And a friend of mine wore a wire into my apartment. Then a couple hours later, federal agents came knocking at my door. They burst through. It was very dramatic. And at that point I'd been abusing drugs and active addiction had been up for like through almost three days at that point. And I was running a fever because I had a pretty bad infection. So I was very disoriented. And they come through, they sort of take me down in my kitchen. And the main guy who is sort of in charge of me and he's laughing and he had a great blast. And he loved arresting people, I think. And a Bunch of other guys come in, and they start tearing through my apartment, you know, the drawers opening, furniture, kind of tipping down, rooting around, looking for illegal drugs, which I did have in my apartment. And they were taking pictures. So I was sort of down in my kitchen, and I heard them in my bedroom, and I heard the flashing. I think they handcuffed me. And then when they'd found enough drugs to. To. To arrest me, they asked me to take off my shoelaces. And they walk me down the stairs, down the stairs, out of my building in handcuffs into my neighborhood.

A (10:41)

Why did they ask you to take off your shoelaces?

C (10:44)

Oh, well, you don't want any shoelaces or belts on somebody because you might do self harm. I think probably it's part of their policy because people use those sort of things to hurt themselves. Oh, wow. So I think that's just their policy.

A (10:57)

How did they get into the apartment?

C (10:58)

Well, they. They were banging, banging, banging, banging, bang, banging. Police. Police. Police. And I did open the door, which may have been a mistake because later they said that I invited them in, which I didn't. But I think technically I invited them in because I did comply and open the door when they knocked.

A (11:17)

So they. They throw you in the car?

C (11:20)

Well, they put me in the car. I wouldn't say throw. I mean, they were. I mean, once I had basically submitted, they were mostly behaved. They were professional. I'll say they were both professional. And we went to St. Vincent's Hospital. We had sort of like a medical evaluation because I looked terrible. I'd been up for a while, and they take me to the. The. The waiting room, and they're like, d, A, D A. And one. Actually one of my boss's old friends, like, stood up and then staring at me as I walked by. So it was a pretty. Like, it was pretty grim. I was pretty shocked by that point. I was definitely in shock. They take me there. A doctor sort of signed off that I was healthy enough to be incarcerated. And then they took me to the courthouse, and I waited in the bullpen at 500 Pearl street, had an arraignment, took me out. I mean, it's getting to be a blur. Then they shackled me, hands and feet with a bunch of the other guys at the end of the day, end of the business day when the court business was over, and they took all of us out to MDC Brooklyn. So I was shackled, hands and feet, then hooked to the chains of the other guys, and we sort of shuffled out into the van to go from lower Manhattan out to Brooklyn, Sunset Park, Brooklyn, where the federal detention facility, the MDC Brooklyn is. And at this point, I was really in bad shape. You know, I'm starting to go through withdrawals because I was pretty hooked on, I would say the most serious things I was hooked to was methamphetamine and benzodiazepines. And I had, of course, been up for a few days. I was running a fever. I was really in bad shape. So I'm very disoriented. And they process you. There's a strip search. So you take off all your clothes. Some stuff they'll put in a box and like ship it back to you. I think they just threw my stuff away, give it a prison uniform, strip search, pictures taken, questioned at one point, just sort of a basic intake. Now I'm totally disoriented. You know, I. I was not really processing what was happening. I was shocked, I was ill, I was overwhelmed. And I, you know, basically complied. I'm compliant by nature, a rule follower by nature, even though I got myself in this situation. So it was rough. I will say my first four days at MDC Brooklyn was rough. After I was put into the uniform, long walk around the facility up to the medical intake unit in the new building. And it's a double tier unit where it's people just fresh to the building, where you get a chest X ray, you get your teeth checked, you get TB tests, basic rudimentary medical intake to make sure that you're safe to be put into general population. So I basically waited, going back and forth to the courthouse every day for like, it was about three or four days until I was bailed out. And in those three or four days, every morning, woke up at the beginning of the morning, taken down to the intake area, changed clothes, shackled up, put on the van, taken the courthouse, wait all day hoping and praying my pill would come through and then turned around and back. And then that happened three or four times as I get sicker and sicker and sicker, and I'm asking, please, can I see a doctor? And it just wasn't possible in the routine in the intake. But I survived. I eventually did get bailed out.

A (14:56)

So I read that you were in just a giant room with 120 inmates. Is that the same setting for this time?

C (15:04)

So after I was bailed out nine months later, I went back into the jail. I surrendered again just in the course of the legal process. First time around, all four of those days, I was in the medical intake unit. And that was still 120 man unit, but that was in the new building. Building that had two tiers of cells. And I stayed back in that unit for another 11 days the second time I went in. But the chunk of my time was in the dorm unit, which is a single open space. I think it was about, you know, 160 or 130, I forget. And 120 bunks, double bunks, one row after the other in a single room. No windows, little slits for outside light, but basically warehoused people.

A (15:53)

That's your second time, nine months later.

C (15:55)

Yeah.

A (15:56)

Walk into this room. Yeah, that's where you're seeing. It's different from the first time.

C (16:00)

Yeah, I walk in and I just see this single room. And it's just mass of people. And of course it's very loud. Hard floors, hard walls, men from all over the world. And it's just this massive sound, you know, everyone talking and yelling and all that, you know, big feeling and busyness. And I couldn't believe that was it. I thought maybe there'd be a cell or maybe there'd be something. But no, it was just that one room. A few toilet stalls, four or five shower stalls with sort of stone walls, top to the bottom, the. The tables where people would eat, two laundry machines. A tiny kitchen area, a room for the corrections officer. Little kind of like little subdivisions of the room, not doors, but one with a television, and one that was used for basically religious activities, prayer, Bible study. And so, yeah, so that was the room.

A (17:05)

How many hours were you in that room per day?

C (17:08)

I was in that single room, basically 24, seven for a year.

A (17:12)

And the lights doesn't shut off?

C (17:14)

No. Well, they'll. The. Not all. They'll shut off a few of the lights over the. The bunks, but they don't turn off the lights to the full room for safety.

A (17:24)

So these are fluorescent lights?

C (17:26)

Yeah.

A (17:26)

And you're sleeping in that light. What was the first night there?

C (17:30)

First night was very intense. Again, I'm, you know, coming down off drugs. And by that time, the second time I went in, between the two times, I got in a terrible concussion. And so I'm coming down with the concussion, the drugs. My brain really not working well. They signed me a bunk, top bunk, center of the room, right under these fluorescent lights. And that was. That little tiny strip was my only bit of, like, turf in the world. I had a little locker off to the side. But that bunk under the fluorescence in the middle of that room. Sound coming up everywhere. Not a lot of English spoken in that massive sound and just melting down. And it was quite an adjustment. It was a very intense experience. Now, I will say, and I have to emphasize this, jail saved my life. I was killing myself with drugs. You know, I was put on this very difficult journey entirely because of my own choices. And so I. It. I'd be dead had I not had that moment. But that moment was hard. It was a big adjustment. That first night, I did hear in the corner a group of men singing in Spanish Bible songs. Like Christian, like, sort of summer camp Bible songs. And I walked over to that circle. It was about 20, maybe 25 men clapping, singing just, you know, Christian summer Bible camp songs. And I joined in. And at the end of the singing, someone said a prayer, and they asked me my name, and I said my name out loud. In jail for the first time. After the prayer, the group of Christians went around and gave each other hugs. And I thought, that's the most incredible thing in the world. Here I am in this super intense room. It's the worst moment of my life. And yet there was humanity, there was kindness. There were a lot of angels in that. In that jail, both a few people who worked there and a few people there as inmates, and they saved my life. Wow.

A (19:48)

Was that the first conversation you had inside with. With somebody or.

C (19:52)

I can tell you exactly. There was. I walked in and someone who I'd met once in the city in sort of like the drug land, he came up to me, and we reconnected. He was extremely helpful. He sort of was able to point a few things out, you know, help me sort of adjust.

A (20:14)

Do you recall what he said in that moment?

C (20:17)

He said, I think I know you, and. Oh, and. And it took me a while to process who he was, and I was very lucky that he was there.

A (20:29)

You know, you say he kind of helped you, showed you around.

C (20:31)

Yeah, yeah.

A (20:32)

He point out for. For someone new like you.

C (20:34)

Look, I had one speeding ticket in high school, and, like, I didn't know anyone had ever been to jail. And so, like. And for a lot of people, jail is just sort of a normal part and something that they're, you know, their cousins are there, there's. Their guys have family members there. There are people that just had a little bit more information before they walked in there. I did not. So he explained how laundry got done. He sort of talked me out the schedule for the day. He explained the important rules. He explained count time because they have to look the jail's main two things. They can't lose you, and they can't kill you. So they have to like, you know, count you. And they count you twice a day. Actually three times a day you go to your bunk. Yeah, you go to your bunk at night, they'll come. You can be laying down, and in the morning you can be laying down. But once a day there's a. No, twice a day. Once or twice a day there's a stand up count where you have to show that you can stand up on your own feet so they know that you're alive. And, and they, throughout the whole federal system, they do these counts. They send the count in, you know, I guess to Washington D.C. make sure the numbers are right. And that's just part of the daily rituals.

A (21:43)

Now, did he mention any groups like, okay, you want to stay away from that group or you don't want to say these things? Any sort of conversations like that?

C (21:52)

I will say on my unit, I was very lucky. I was on a unit where, generally speaking, the inmates were a little older and everyone was mixed and everyone was in the same room. You couldn't escape. If you had a conflict with someone, there was no escaping. So although generally speaking, people ate with other members of their, you know, ethnic or religious groups, it wasn't, I was lucky there wasn't a kind of rigid system of groups to avoid or not avoid. For whatever reason I locked up on that unit, lucked out on that unit where there was, since we were all in the same place, kind of social pressure for peace.

A (22:40)

Is it better than the traditional cell blocks?

C (22:43)

I don't know. I mean, it was, I mean, pretty stressful to be in that single room. Because you remember in that single room it's men who were there for all kinds of reasons. Some who had done some serious stuff, some people who were there just like on a probation violation. All kinds of people from all over the world, all continents. Remember, it's New York City. So a lot of people come to New York City for all kinds of reasons and to do all kinds of business and a lot of it contraband. So it was a vast number of people. And one guy could have just been sentenced to life and one guy might be getting out the next day. Somebody's wife just left him. Somebody's mother just turned them in. You know, the emotions are big round the clock. Well, I would say, you know, in waking hours. So that was a very stressful sensory environment. It took me months afterwards just to adjust to the. Because of the sensory overload. But in terms of what we discussed, the social pressure towards peace, I think was Very lucky for me.

A (23:46)

So that room 24 7.

C (23:47)

Yeah, yeah.

A (23:48)

You never stepped out of that room.

C (23:50)

Well, you could sign up and about 10 people a week could go to what they called the library, which was like you could leave the unit and go to this, you know, small space with a certain selection of leisure reading, scholarly reading and some law books. And they're across the hall, across the hall for a few hours a day. They open this little concrete room. There was basically an empty space, low ceiling, a very beat up basketball rim, a tiny little vent that went into the shaft of the building. So you could go in that other room. And I did sometimes just to sort of walk in circles or do push ups that room. Because some of the men had been in that room for many years because people are at mdc, some are just passing through and some say there for years, waiting for their trial to happen, waiting to testify in other cases, right in that little shaft. You could yell out through that little vent and talk to other prisoners on other floors. And the thing that made me laugh the most was that men would have girlfriends. Oh my God, or wives, as they'd often call them. And they'd have these appointments where they'd lie on the floor on their stomachs and yell out through the shaft and listen for their girlfriend or wife to talk back to them. And they would have like, appointments where they'd arrange shifts like who could lay on the ground, yell through that shaft. Now, it was definitely against the rules if a correction officer would come in and spot them laying on the ground talking to their wives. They'd jump up to their feet and act like nothing had happened happened. And once a year the prison would come through and take Polaroids. And so the, the couples on different floors would mail their Polaroid to their girlfriend or, or spouse on, in the other, in the other floor. And sometimes someone might have been talking to this woman, talking frankly, talking dirty, which is most of the conversation, you know, and then they had never seen them, you know, and then they'd get Polaroid. And it, to be, to put it nicely, it wasn't always what they imagined.

A (26:15)

And so what happens when, when they see the photo and, and they're disappointed.

C (26:21)

And well, there's a moment of choice, you know, do you never talk to them again? Or you go down because you liked her voice or you liked her company, or at this point you might feel a real connection because you talk to her every day and you go and you say, you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. Or if the other men would see the picture. I mean it was, I have to say look, it was very stressful and there's a lot of pain and anguish and it's incredibly difficult sensorily. It's hard. There are times where it's winter with no heat, summer with no air conditioning, but life still happens.

A (26:58)

You know I read about this too actually. So I, I know this exists today and they're saying that where Diddy is staying.

C (27:07)

Oh yeah.

A (27:07)

You know, they wouldn't be surprised that a lot of different inmates would try to get in contact with Diddy because you know, he's famous and rich and now allegedly.

C (27:17)

And by allegedly meaning it was in the New York Times that Diddy and I think Sam Bankman fried were in the unit that was one floor above mine. You know, so in terms of like the setting, it's a fairly decent chance that the room I'm describing is similar to where Judy is.

A (27:35)

Interesting.

C (27:35)

Yeah.

A (27:36)

From our research, they're in north four, right?

C (27:39)

I was in three north.

A (27:41)

Three north. Yeah.

C (27:41)

So I was in three north. They're in four north. Yes, yes. I was in three north. Oh yes, three north prize now in four north. Oh yeah.

A (27:48)

They have about 30 to 40 high profile image. So from what you're describing, your room had 120 people in their room only had 30, 40 people. That's why they're saying sometimes the top bunk is empty.

C (28:02)

That makes sense. My guess is my, if I have to guess and I'm guessing that the, that the floor plan is the same and they just have much lower population in 4 North right now.

A (28:12)

Yeah. I don't know if you w ever watch squid game. They had this giant dorm with all these bunk beds, like three bunks, four bunks side by side. How close are the bunks for you?

C (28:22)

Very close, very close.

A (28:24)

Can I reach you if I. Oh yeah.

C (28:26)

Oh easily, easily, easily. Like I'm sleeping, my head's right there to the my a very delightful Armenian friend who's behind me and oh yeah, you're very close. Oh, easily your arm goes over you touch the next person. Oh yes, because you're very tired, very tight. I don't recommend it. I mean I recommend it if you want your life saved. I mean if you're in a bad situation like I was. It saved my life and I got a lot of help there. It was a huge experience living with those men from all over the world, hearing stories from all over the world and, and in that room you're there and you're each other's Whole lives. So lots of jokes, lots of stories.

A (29:11)

Toilets.

C (29:11)

Oh, yeah. Toilets, huh?

A (29:13)

They are in the room.

C (29:15)

Oh, yeah. So they're basically stalls, and there is a stall door you can close, and there are some urinals and they're right near where the laundry machines are and where the tables are for eating.

A (29:27)

So barely any privacy, right?

C (29:30)

Well, there's a stall door and there's a curtain for showers.

A (29:34)

Everything's right there.

C (29:35)

Yeah, Everything's right there. Yeah. Yeah.

A (29:38)

People fight over the stalls or.

C (29:40)

I didn't see any. I didn't see any fighting over the stalls. I mean, one day a man died on the toilet. There's a guy that was there, and he had been signed up for the library, and he was sort of a newcomer. And I remembered that day because they kept calling out his name to go to the library, and he didn't. He. He didn't come. So they just left. And a few more hours passed. And suddenly this guy from Jamaica who had, like, maybe one finger on his left hand and a huge amount of dreads all tied up in a pillowcase on his head, very nice guy. He was mopping, and he noticed that the feet under the stall hadn't moved. Hadn't moved. Hadn't moved. So he starts knocking on the door. No answer. And he kicks it in. And the man is dead on the toilet. All the blood rushed down to his legs. And it's sort of early in the morning, so a lot of people are still in their bunks, and they call, you know, alert the. The Corrections officer. The corrections officer hits what, you know, colloquially known as the hits the body alarm. And suddenly this, like, huge number of staff from the. From the. From the facility. You know, administrators, people in suits, people in uniforms, people in lab coats running in, pull him off the toilet, lay him down. I mean, he was long dead. He'd probably been dead for an hour. I think. They're doing this sort of cpr and they. And. And at this point, everybody's awake. So in that big mass of bunks, you see everybody up on their bunk with. Watching, watching, watching. Because, of course, that could have been any of us. That could have been any of our last moments. All the staff comes in. So to block our view, a bunch of the staff line up like soccer players, you know, blocking a free kick, lined up like this so they could block whatever they were doing to this man's body. And they take him out and they go on. And we're all pretty shocked because we all thought they could call that body alarm for any of us. And that's what our last moments would look like. And then a few hours later, because we're all buzzing. We're all buzzing about it, this guy comes in and says, gentlemen, sorry to say so, and so died at the hospital. And a guy stands up and says, he was dead here, he was dead here. He was dead here. What are you gonna tell his family? Because we're all thinking, would they tell the truth to our families? And the guy says, you're not a doctor. What do you know? What do you know? And we all knew. So. No, none of us really talked about it on the phone calls because we afraid they. Our phone calls would have gotten cut off. I think I wrote about it in one letter, and it was really harrowing. Now I understand why they have to do that. I mean, the facility has rules and procedures, and most of them are. There are, or for rational reasons. But when you see the system kind of kick up like that and sort of descend upon you, whether you're, you know, a corpse in your jail cell, or me almost a corpse from drugs in my apartment, and the system suddenly yanks you and your body's not really yours anymore. It's very dramatic, very powerful, but it is part of life.

A (33:11)

Do you guys know what happened to. To the guy?

C (33:14)

I mean, I don't. I don't suspect any kind of foul play or anything like that. I mean, I think he died of medical natural causes.

A (33:22)

And you were a theater director, right? And now you're sitting inside MDC in this giant box that never turns off with 120 men.

C (33:36)

Yeah.

A (33:38)

You're withdrawing from all the drugs you were on. Have you had moments of thinking from, you know, where your life were going to? Here you are in this situation. How was that contrast and how. How bad did it get for you mentally?

C (33:50)

Well, listen, I mean, I had some very dark weeks and months. It probably took me a while to sort of get into a routine where I was functioning well. Certainly there was intense amount of despair, humiliation, rage, sorrow. It really felt like the end of the world. And there'd be days where I'd wake up and my whole body is just like, baking in resentment and shame and very intense feelings, mind going a mile minute, rumination, rage about the past, terror about the future. So that was very intense period of time, and that lasted quite a while.

A (34:37)

How long did it take you to finally get your life turnaround, I guess, when you decided to do something about it?

C (34:43)

Oh, well, I mean, that sort of happened in stages, you know, certainly in the context of the jail. I got into a routine. I was able to write letters. I actually did edits on a musical book, a play that had a read while I was in jail. I sent edits. There was a reading done of something I wrote at the York Theater on the Upper east side. So I was able to stay creative. I worked on some other product projects, started on a play, lots of letters. So. And I got in shape. I lost weight, I exercised, I, you know, prayed, I read. I did everything I could to function well. I learned how to eat. I was able to, like, make a little financial deal with one of the Muslims on the. On the unit who. Who got fresh vegetables, called a common fair tray. And I would pay him in stamps. So I figured out how to get fresh vegetables, figure out how to eat a little healthy. So I got into a routine even in that room. So that was step one.

A (35:47)

Can you actually. We're going to get into the food in a moment because we have. We're very curious about. Can you walk us through exactly from the moment you wake up the day, hour by hour, what does that look like?

C (35:59)

My day. Okay, great. So I wake up, I'm an early bird, one of the very few. And in fact, thankfully, I'm very happy to say I got a job. And my job was the really. There were a few early morning jobs. Two guys served the quote unquote breakfast. And my job was to wipe down all the glass surfaces. So there weren't. It's not windows really to the outside, but glass surfaces on doors, you know, onto the hallway between little rooms. And my job is to wipe those down every morning, which took about 45 minutes to an hour. So I would eat something, make some coffee. I would go about. And most everyone else is sleeping. And the way I wiped them down, I had a little cleaning bottle and I had socks that I cut in half and had a little sock on my hand. And I went glass surface by glass surface. And that was my job. I think I was paid like 25 cents an hour. But having a job meant I got a slightly better piece of chicken on chicken day, which was a very big deal back then.

A (37:17)

Is it because you purchased the chicken or date?

C (37:19)

No, no, it's just what, you know, one day a week they serve chicken. And that's like the. The one piece of, like, healthy, fresh protein. And so you want to have an in with the guy serving the chicken so that you get the best possible piece of chicken. And since I had a job and since actually I was pretty popular, believe it or not, And I had a good piece of chicken and so I had that job. So after I was done with that, then I would usually cross the hall to that little concrete space and I would exercise. And thankfully, thankfully on the commissary, I was able to buy a little AM FM radio. And that was my lifeline.

A (38:01)

Do you remember how much it costed?

C (38:02)

I don't. I want to say like 35, $55. I forget.

A (38:07)

Wow. So that means you have to work.

C (38:10)

Well, I know. Well, I had, thankfully, my family put money on my commissary account, so, like, that allowed me to buy shoes. Shoes and the radio were the lifesaver when I got those shoes the first time, because the shoes they gave me were just agonizing. My feet were like in horrible shape. I was in a lot of pain. And when the shoes came, oh, I felt like. I mean, I was just floating. I felt like I was floating. I was so thrilled.

A (38:39)

What kind of shoes?

C (38:40)

I. Some tennis shoes, I forget which. But I was so thrilled to get those shoes. I felt like a million bucks. Because you're wearing. Most of the days you're wearing this, you know, tan onesie all day, you know, during like, quote unquote business hours, you could get into, you know, sweatpants and stuff. But during the work hours, you wear the. The tan onesie and the. And the shoes. I felt like a million bucks. But then you get the radio. Now the radio was everything to me. And it's New York City, so a lot of great radio. So I could listen to commercial radio, listen to public radio, listen to music, all kinds of different music. And just hearing, honestly at the beginning, just hearing the English language, you know, through the radio, because there wasn't a ton of it on my unit, I mean, there's quite a bit. But hearing, you know, serious commentary, news, business information, that radio was everything to me. And so I'd go across and I listen to radio. And it was 2008, so it was during the Obama campaign, and I'm like super into it and presidential year. So I'd walk in circles in that little room, listen to the radio basically until lunch and the beginning when I was there, I got basically all of my food through the main line. But over time, I looked, I noticed. I observed people who were eating better and how they did it and how they assembled items on the commissary, fresh vegetables from the common fair tray. And I figured out how to make better food for myself. And I had a shift. A shift. There was one microwavable Tupperware Container that floated from person to person so they could heat up their alternative concocted meals. And I had like a shift where the Tupperware container came to me. I throw in the vegetables, the mackerel, fish, whatever else I could heat in the microwave, eat it, wash it, and pass that little beaten up. It was so beaten up, this plastic little object that had fed who knows how many people over how many years circulating. It looked like, you know, you looked like something you'd pick out of the rubble of Chernobyl. I mean, it really looked rough. And I had my shift and I would eat and then I'd wash it and hand the Tupperware tray to the next guy and. But, you know, I figured out how to eat. It took me a long time, it took me months for my brain to kind of readjust and function again. I had done such harm to my brain with illegal drugs, farm legal pharmaceuticals, benzos, and then the concussion. I was in horror. But eventually I started. I could feel my brain coming back online. And I figured out how to adapt.

A (41:44)

So that's the. The little trait. You've just shared that trait. Every single day.

C (41:48)

Every single day, I get the little. The guy with my friend would bring me the little. This is a little Tupperware container, you know, just like. Like a little storage thing, microwavable. And it just passed around. It allowed people to mix various food items together. And there was a microwave oven on our unit, and people would prepare little dishes for themselves. Wow. My turn? Yeah.

A (42:12)

Okay, so after lunch, what's the recipe?

C (42:14)

After lunch, for the most part, once it had passed midday, then I was just reading. You know, the other thing I would do in the morning, it would be write, you know, write letters all by hand, write notes. And that was mostly on in the mornings because once the afternoon came around, it was very hard to get a tabletop, very hard to get a flat surface, because those were sort of taken over by other men. Eating, playing cards, playing dominoes. Those big dominoes games are slapping the dominoes down. And so it's hard to get a flat surface to like eat on or write on. So that was mostly during the day. So in the afternoons, often would read the newspaper. God bless my father, he sent me his New York Times subscription. So I'm reading the New York Times. And sometimes I'd see, like some of my Harvard friends in New York Times. One guy, like, became a senator, Another guy's a federal judge. Another, it's for my theater friends. I'd see their shows, you know, and.

A (43:18)

Was it Emotionally hard to see those.

C (43:20)

I laugh looking back because it was just such a wild experience at the time. Look, it was hard. Of course it was hard, but it was what it was. It was reality. It was a reality that I'd participated in creating. It was where I was. So a lot of New York Times reading, a lot of book reading, a lot of conversations. Sometimes I would go because there'd be sort of daily afternoon kind of Bible study, ish type of. The Christians would continue, convene and maybe look at a Bible passage or pray. Sometimes I would join them. And then once the evening rolls around, I just started to wind down.

A (44:00)

Is there a dinner?

C (44:01)

Oh, yeah, of course. Yes. The mainline dinner comes along.

A (44:05)

And when you say mainline dinner.

C (44:08)

Right, right. Thanks. So mainline is sort of just the slang term or. Or the term for, like when did. When food is served, they open a little, you know, on the unit in that single room, a little opening would open in the. In the quote unquote, little kitchen area. And they would serve food through that little opening. Counter here, little opening, other inmates there in gloves, mask, hair net, all that. And the food would roll down on these big sort of wagons and served by certain inmates to the others. Trays come along, line up, get the food. And most people would eat that way. I would often eat that way. But towards the end, I really depended on my own little concoctions and mostly just ate one meal a day.

A (44:55)

So you don't take the plate anymore.

C (44:58)

By the end, I might get a little bits here and there, but by the end, I'd sort of learned how to prepare slightly better, slightly healthier food for myself.

A (45:08)

How bad is the food? What exactly are they serving?

C (45:11)

Oh, gosh. Well, it's really a wide range. I want to start with the positive. I have to say. I have to respect the people who work there. It's a very hard place to work. It's a very impossible assignment. That facility is very stressful. So I'm going to emphasize the positive. Holiday meals, they did a great job. They did a great day. I mean, they really put an effort.

A (45:33)

What's the holiday?

C (45:34)

Thanksgiving, Christmas, Fourth of July, they were the main ones, and they really made such a difference. I think there was a Cornish hen for Christmas, turkey for Thanksgiving, a lot of trimmings. So those special meals, you know, I think there was hot dogs or barbecue or something on Fourth of July. They made an effort and I appreciated it. I will say anyone who's looking, thank you for that. You know, the fresh chicken, the chicken day. That was probably the best. If you're really lucky, you know, you get the breast with the leg attached and all of that. But they're not all like that. Sometimes you get a thigh, sometimes they're little pieces. I mean, people get very emotional of how the quality of their chicken piece. And, you know, if you're the guy serving and you have a grudge of somebody, you might give them a very lousy piece of chicken. And that. That's war right there. That's war right there.

A (46:24)

Would that start a fight?

C (46:25)

I mean, it could, it could. But I don't know if I saw anything over that. But that would be definitely a source of resentment, you know, because you remember there's some guys who've been on that unit for years, and some guys on that unit have known each other two cousins, you know, all of that. And then you have other guys who are just passing through two or three days or passing through, and they might have some rivalry from the street with someone else on that unit. Not too often, but so there's a mix of people. And if you're just off the street, you've been there for three days, and you feel like you've. Someone has shown you disrespect of some kind that can create tension and occasionally physical altercation.

A (47:06)

Are those bad? Do you see blood?

C (47:08)

I saw a few. As I said, for the most part, there was pressure not to have those fights. And when those fights, you know, teed off, for the most part, people would come and take them apart, you know, because I think there was an understanding that, like, when two men have committed to that fight, you cannot back down without losing face. And so it was the sort of duty of everyone around you, knowing you can't back down, to either stop it before it happened or to pull you off each other. But there were a few. And, you know, fights just pop off. Heights pop off, they pop off in jail, they pop up on the subway, they pop off on the sidewalk. Fights happen. They pop off on sports fields. And sometimes they pop off, and they could be pretty brutal. I mean, there's one fight I saw. Both guys, I like, nice guys, but something. And they had been like, friends and friendly for weeks and months, but something snapped, they got into it, and the bigger guy beat the other guy out of his clothes. I mean, the guy was just destroyed, I think. But by the end, he had maybe his underwear left and they had to drag him out. So things pop off could. You know.

A (48:20)

Is there a solitary confinement for.

C (48:22)

Oh, yeah, it's called special housing unit and protective Custody, they're different versions. So some people might end up for a long while in, in a solitary cell for disciplinary issues, for violence, for rule violations. They use it for discipline. And some people might end up there if they're a high profile prisoner that needs extra protection.

A (48:47)

I'm assuming you've never been. Have you heard from other guys who got in there or came out of there? Oh, sure, describing.

C (48:55)

Oh, sure. I mean, listen, I. I had a few days, not many. I had a few days where it was basically on lockdown. This is in the medical intake unit. On lockdown by myself in a cell, except for meal times. And that is brutal. It is brutal. And I just what it does to the human brain. We're not designed to be in that kind of isolation. It's not healthy. I understand for safety reasons, it has to be done sometimes, but it's tough. And I had people I knew well who had a violation of some kind were dragged off to the shoe. Not dragged. That's not fair. And they firmly escorted to, to the isolation. And they come back, you know, weeks later, months later, ashen, thinner, because there's nothing to do all day. 23 hour lockdown. And you would see it took a while being around other people to start looking healthy again. Wow. And that was just part of being in a facility like that.

A (50:00)

You saved months.

C (50:02)

Look, some people would probably spend their entire time in a room like that. I didn't know anybody. I mean, I knew people who went there for. I mean, I want to say typically is like six, six weeks or so, but maybe a few were longer. I would tell you something was the most amazing thing. You could always tell when someone was about to go home that someone found out something about their case or they knew they were about to get out the next day. And as soon as they heard that news, you'd see the gray, ashen face color would come back. I remember this one guy, he found out he's getting out the next day. I forget what reason, but it was like he was 20 years younger.

A (50:40)

Like that.

C (50:40)

Life just rushed back. Wow. And I remember because I didn't know I was getting out till about eight hours before I found out the evening before the next day. And as soon as I got off the phone, I walked back to my bunk and they said, you're getting out. I could see it on your face because, you know, that rush of life, you know, came back and it was visible on me too. Wow.

A (51:05)

No, we're gonna get into that in a second. I'm very curious about your Your whole experience re entering it.

C (51:10)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (51:12)

Now, going back to the. To the food. Oh, yeah, you said that. You know the type of food that was being served, and then you. You start making your own food. And how did you get the fresh vegetable?

C (51:23)

Again, I can tell you. Exactly. So they. They provide basically vegetarian trays and other special meals for people that have. But basically for vegetarians. Now, again, this is a while ago. I assume it's that way still. But this was me in 2008. They had something called, quote unquote, a common fair tray, which basically had fresh vegetables. And that was pretty common for Muslims who. Who had certain restrictions on the kind of meat they could eat. And so. And other. I think some other religious groups. I think there was a Hindu guy who had a common fair tray, and had I known, I would have requested that when I got there. But so I just made a deal with somebody who had gotten a common fair tray, and I paid him in stamps. And so I would get his lunch tray. And that lunch tray gave me basically two meals worth of fresh vegetables. And I would mix that in from the little mackerel fish, the little Max, as they call them, and any other kind of like seasonings, anything I could get off of the commissary. And I get my Tupperware and heat it up and eat it.

A (52:32)

That is incredible. You know, we read that spf. Oh, yeah, in a report. He said that he's vegan, and I'm assuming this is what he's on. Are you saying that the. The common fair trait provides healthier and better food than you normal?

C (52:46)

Well, I mean, it's sort of limited, as I recall. You know, I just remember being sort of uncooked vegetables, such as, oh, gosh, carrots, I guess, celery. I don't remember because I just chopped up whatever was there and threw it into the tray. The chopper was. I can explain exactly what the chopper was. Was. You'd ask somebody who'd gotten. Who'd gotten Pringles, and you'd say, when you're done with the Pringles, can I have your Pringles too tube? And they'd say, yes. And you say, thank you. Thank you. And you take the bottom of the Pringles tube and you'd bend it back and forth until you had a little surface. And so that half bottom of Pringle soup is how I chop my vegetables. Wow. Now, you don't want to be caught with that because that would be contraband. But I think a lot of the corrections Officers, if they saw you chopping vegetables, would leave you alone.

A (53:39)

Wow.

C (53:39)

Well, look, you gotta live. You adapt to survive. You adapt. Adapt. Adapt.

A (53:43)

Yeah, yeah. No, it's very fascinating what kind of other, I guess, weapons you've seen.

C (53:50)

You know, thankfully, I didn't see. I mean, I. I do know that before I got on that unit a few weeks or months earlier, my friend who came up and saw me and said, oh, I know you from the street. He told me that a few weeks or months earlier, there was actually a conflict between two ethnic groups and there was sort of like a planned, you know, for lack of a better word, rumble, you know, for the west side Story fans out there. And he said he knew there was trouble because all the men from those two groups were all wearing their shoes to bed and that they had all taken their locks because you could have a lock, order a lock off the commissary to lock up your little locker, and they'd all taken the locks off, put them in socks and put their shoes on and waited for their opportunity. I think. Let me tell you what I think it was, but I don't know for sure. Don't quote me. One of the corrections officers would go help the other unit on the same hallway, do their count on the other unit. So they had this like 20, 15 minute window where there was. There were still cameras everywhere, but there was no physical officer on the unit. And when they saw their moment, they. Again, this is secondhand. I didn't see this myself. Jumped out of their. Their bunks and basically had kind of a, you know, little battle until officials came down and broke it up. And men, most of the unit, most everyone in the unit was taken to the special housing unit, put in isolation for. Or in little two man cells for a while. They, you know, interviewed all of them and slowly most of the people came back. Wow. Yeah. Look, it's just life. It's just life. It's Earth. It's just planet Earth, normal stuff.

A (55:41)

I found this little image online that has a list of the jobs.

C (55:47)

Oh, yeah.

A (55:47)

That are available and how much they're paid.

C (55:50)

Oh, yeah.

A (55:50)

And the pay range from $0.12 to $0.40. Do everybody want a job in there and are there difference in. In the jobs? Are some of them more desirable than the. How do you even get a job?

C (56:02)

So, yes, listen, these are. Again, this is just Earth and people. So there are. Some people want to work, some people don't. There are various range of jobs. Some are more desirable than others, and people get them through various ways. So I Got mine because you know, the, the inmate who is sort of head of the, you know, cleanup crew, the head of the, the cadres on our units. I didn't, they didn't call them cadres. Another word for it, trustees or something. Inmate workers, crew on our unit. He saw me, just approached me. He saw that I was up in the morning. He saw it. I was a morning person and said, do you want a job? This is the job in the morning and this is. And I said yes. I was dying for a job. I was dying just to have a task. Even though it was like putting little socks puppet like hands and, and wiping down glass surfaces. I was so thrilled billed to have a job. I was there during the pre trial period. But some people do their whole sentence at these detention facilities and they go in as a cadre and their jobs in some ways are better. So somebody might, you know, do their whole two, you know, what year long sentence there and work as a welder or work in the big kitchen downstairs or have a job that has a little more responsibility, a little bit more freedom of movement. And those people generally are there serving their sentence. The people who are on the pre trial group the way I was or people who are kind of in transit, you know, it's more mostly jobs like on the units. So they're not as desire, quote unquote desirable as people who are there as cadres.

A (57:44)

Basically it really depends on the person. Some people want to have something to do versus others just yeah, don't want to work. And nobody's forcing you to do it. It's your choice. You can try to get a job or don't get a job.

C (57:55)

Yeah, I think people want, I think people want to have a little assignment. I think it's healthy. I think that most people like it.

A (58:04)

The commissary. What else do they have there? Brought a radio. You bought a pair of shoes.

C (58:09)

Yeah, there's some. It's actually kind of wide range. You could probably like see it online actually. I think you could buy bags of rice. There are some seasonings. You could buy batteries. Batteries to the radio. Stamps, pads of paper, you know, just shaving cream. I think for the women's unit they had some, you know, rudimentary beauty products. Rudimentary stuff. It's all rudimentary, you know, toiletry kinds of things. Soap. But there are some sweets. I mean the big prize was like a six pack of soda that was like, you know, thrill anything. Sugar, sugar was big. So you could buy. I remember I got a Kit Kat bar The first time I taste a KitKat, I love. So thrilled to taste sugar. Eventually, I stopped getting that. But you buy coffee, instant coffee, so that was big for me.

A (59:04)

Would the KitKat bar be the same price or is it jacked up or.

C (59:08)

I don't really remember. Probably everything is jacked up. Probably everything is. Oh, but I mean. Oh, the other big thing. Oh, this is big sweatpants and a sweatshirt. Huge. Oh, my gosh. So big. Once you get the sweatpants, man, you're like a king because, you know, you're just in that onesie uniform. And over time, you can buy things to make your life marginally more comfortable. But the margin in there feels like it's huge.

A (59:36)

You mentioned in another interview that the. The currency there is macro filet.

C (59:43)

Oh, yeah. So when I was there, the main courtesy were stamps and these little blue packages of mackerels. They call them Mac. So each little. Little mackerel fillets, like, you can get it, you know, grocery store, you know, tinned fish is really in, in, in, in right now. And. And those little packets of macro fillets sort of functioned as dollars.

A (60:05)

So you will buy it from. From the commissary first.

C (60:08)

Buy it from the commissary. She'd get a stack of Macs. And that was my main source of protein. So I'd buy a lot of those. I would also use them to pay, you know, because the guy who ran the laundry, if you gave him a Mac, he would make sure your laundry got all back to you. He'd fold it, put it on your bed. You'd give a Mac to the guy who was the barber because, you know, one inmate basically was in charge of the clippers. And once a week would, like, trim your beard, trim your hair. You pay him in a Mac. But the big thing was you'd gamble with Macs. Now, I'm not a gambler, but you see guys, they play poker. The Mac's coming out, and they have a big night, and they're coming back to their bunk, this armful of Macs, and, like, shoving them all into their lockers. Oh, it's huge. And one night. This is a gambling story, but one night I got really sick, running really bad fever. And my bunky, who was lovely, who had, like, five kids, lovely, lovely man. And he saw that I was in bad shape, and he checked my temperature by, like, putting his hands around my ankles, and he's like, you're in bad shape. And he went out and played poker. He's really good at poker. And he went out and played poker, and he got me Saltines and, like, Sprite. Wow. And it was, like, the nicest thing ever done to me. It was the sweetest thing. He, like, went out, gambled, brought his Max out, and gambled for Saltines and Sprite to make me feel better. And I could. I mean, it brought tears to my eyes at the moment.

A (61:39)

Is this the same guy you ran into later at a grocery store or no?

C (61:44)

No. Well, actually, you know what? I actually did run into him once. He was working on a construction crew around the corner from this school I was working at. And so I did see him. I said, is that him? Holy cow. And we did interact, and I think I have his phone number somewhere. Lovely guy, lovely wife, beautiful children. Wow.

A (62:02)

You know, we heard somewhere that the ramen noodle instant.

C (62:06)

Oh, yes, of course. That's big. Oh, thanks for bringing that up. Oh, yeah. Love the wrong everyone. I'm not a ramen noodle person, but those are big. And you can get those on the commissary.

A (62:14)

But those are not the currency in your.

C (62:17)

That. Not as I remember.

A (62:19)

Okay.

C (62:19)

I mean, obviously, everything's currency. Currency is just what. What you trade, you know? So, you know, one guy, he started a business, and he would draw you greeting cards for your kids or your wife for holidays. And he had markers. I don't know how he got the markers, but he had markers and paper. And you pay him in stamps or max, and he would give you a personalized greeting card for you to mail to your kid for their birthday or wife for, you know, your anniversary or whatever. And that was his business. And so I think he accepted payment in Mac. I don't know if he accepted payment, but you accept payment in whatever. You know, batteries are valuable. Those are good. Obviously, the sugar sodas, that's valuable. But I would say the main unit of currency was the Mac.

A (63:08)

You know, obviously, everyone has different levels of money, I guess. Right? We're talking about Diddy and sbf. They probably have infinite amount of money to get everything on the commissary list times 10. Right. They probably can have 50 Macs to give it to everyone. Dude, do you think that comes with more privilege than they can live more comfortably?

C (63:33)

As I recall, there was a maximum you could spend each month or every two weeks or however long it was. So they wouldn't have been able to, like, max out the commissary. I mean, they would have maxed out whatever the monthly limit was, but that had some. So there was a ceiling. Now, I'm sure someone who is wealthy and famous, that there would be people saying, look, if I can buy, get you extra stuff on my commissary order, if you want to put money into my account. They're always, look, you know, everyone's transact. Everyone's doing business. This is still Earth. Remember, everyone's looking for a deal, looking for a way to get over, looking for a way to get in. All of that happened. I will tell you this. One of the most exciting things I ever seen in my whole life. There was a sort of recreation guy who worked at a bureau prisons. And one day he brought in a Monopoly board. I saw the most exciting game of Monopoly I'd ever seen. And they set it up on this table. And the four guys were standing around the Monopoly board. And the Monopoly board. The game went so fast. And they're, like, playing and fast, fast, fast. And they're making side deals and paying people around the side. And it was like the most exciting thing I'd ever seen because these guys were, like, very supportive, sophisticated in their own worlds. Businessmen, hustlers, if you want to say that. And they're hustling each other and they're cheating, they're breaking the rules, and they're screaming at each other. And it was thrilling. So I mean, to say that everyone's still, you know, life hasn't stopped. So they want to go talk to their wife. They want to find a way to make $10. Gambling. Life doesn't stop.

A (65:14)

How bad were the summers and winters?

C (65:16)

Well, there were times on my unit where the air conditioning didn't work. I think that was, I want to say, more than a week. And that was brutal. I mean, that was brutal. Very hot because there's no air circulation. There's no fresh air. You know, they put some big fans in the, you know, the door to the hallway. But that didn't really provide any relief. There's nothing you can do.

A (65:42)

120 people in a room.

C (65:44)

Well, 120 bunks. I would say the actual population number was like more like 105. You know, maybe got up to 110 a few times.

A (65:52)

And summer in Brooklyn can get so.

C (65:54)

Yeah, I mean, it's very hot. And then a few times in winter, there was no heat. Very, very cold. And a lot of these men were from the equatorial countries, you know, whether the Caribbean or the equator at South America or, you know, West Africa, other places. And for some of those guys who'd never really been in winter, that was, like, brutal. And you look at. They wouldn't even get out of their beds, they're so cold. And you see like just, you know, men basically, you know, shivering under their sheets in their bunk all day. The cold didn't bother me as much, but. No, I mean, it's cold, it's cold. You know, it's cold sometimes. Yeah, it's cold.

A (66:34)

Can you buy more clothes to wear or.

C (66:36)

Well, listen, I mean, for people who've been there longer, if you had your sweatsuit and then you put your uniform over it and then depending on which correction officer was in charge, you could put something over your head. I mean, basically hats, you know, do rags, a lot of that stuff was not allowed in certain parts of the room, depending on the day. So I started losing my hair in there so my hair would get cold. I mean, there are times I wake up, my hair is my pillows, I'm stressed out, I'm miserable, wake up, my hair's like falling out in jail. So, yeah, I mean, if you had hair, you had more layers of clothes, you had a better chance. But for guys who were passing through or who didn't have sweatpants, sweat shirts. Yeah, it was cold. It's called.

A (67:24)

You were there 2008, that's what, 17 years ago. Do you know anything about the condition today? Is it as bad, is it worse, is it better?

C (67:32)

I can only tell you what I've heard secondhand and that's from someone I'm still in touch with who had an office there. And what I've heard is that the unit that I was on, the, those dorm units are basically just used for women now and that the men are all in the new building where they're in those sort of double tier cell units that I describe for medical intake from my research.

A (67:58)

That's where Luigi Mangioni is in. Oh yeah, and SPF and Diddy, they're in.

C (68:03)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Four north.

A (68:04)

Yes, that's level four. And level three are for women's. Yeah, that's how they communicate to, to each other. Oh, yeah, yeah, up and down.

C (68:11)

So my unit isn't men anymore. I mean, the only things I've heard are maybe slightly more demoralized staff. Look, it's very hard just physically. Look, it's New York. You don't have lots of real estate. So if you need to keep all these people near a courthouse, just being New York, you know, things are going to be smaller, things are going to be tighter, things are be more crowded together. A lot of people have cases here. The Southern district of New York, Eastern District of New York. Those are Big districts, they process a lot of people. So it's an intense setting. Just by reality, just by the nature of square footage and zip codes, it's a hard place to be. I can tell you one thing, I did see one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my whole life. So these men, a lot of these men hadn't been on the street for a long time. Years. There was a guy who's like, oh, when I got arrested, I was worried about my eight track tape collection. So they hadn't been around. So they hadn't, you know, been around a woman for a long time. And they had rules about you couldn't send in certain kind the pictures the girlfriends could send in or certain magazines had to be conservative in terms of how the women were dressed. You know, the closest thing the men would get excited about is it was the 2008 Olympics and during the, the beach volleyball competition, the men were lined up. I go, oh my gosh. Thrill just looking up. But, but one night, I don't know. This had to have been so against the rules. I can't tell you how against the rules rules this must have been. But out of the blue, one of the corrections officers rolled in. And imagine like your high school teacher rolling in a TV and a VCR to show like a movie that night. He rolls it in and rolls it into like one of the few spots where there's no, like, camera coverage. You know, a few blind spots in the cameras. He rolls it in there and he puts on a movie. And I mean, at the time I thought that's the nicest thing because these guys are so desperate and so pent up, you know, these are young men, these are young people, you know, a lot of them really young men. And I'm telling you, people went nuts. Now, a lot, I did not go over there, but a lot of guys, they left off their bunks and they ran over watching, watching the movie. Now I'm sure someone's going to deny this happened, but I'm sure this happened. And they would take turns going in and out of the bathroom stalls or in and out of the showers to, you know, finish themselves off. And then they go back and watch a little longer. And actually, I have to say they were very polite about letting each other go in and out of the showers and the toilets. Dolls. There is this odd sense of like, good manners, you know, about how to handle this. Now, I don't think this ever happened before. If it did, I don't know, but it was like this huge burst of energy, you know, from these men that were so longing for any contact or image or excitement or anything. And then I think maybe 25 minute past. I don't remember exactly, I was a little like. I was afraid to even look or go over there, to be honest, because it was just like this frenzy's overstating it, but let's say high energy event. And. And then at some point, the. The guy went back, Corrections officer went back, turned it off, wheeled the TV back. The guys sort of, you know, made their way back to their bunks. And I never saw anything like that before or since.

A (71:58)

That is incredible. How did that happen?

C (72:04)

Who have no idea. But like, the guard. Now, look, this is years ago. The person's probably retired, enjoying a nice beach vacation. And if not, you know, I wouldn't want to say anything to get anyone in trouble, you know, but he was like, young. And I think in a weird way, it was like, generous. In a weird way, it was like, kind, you know, because. Because one of the serious consequences about breaking the law and ending up in a facility like that is you can be in the prime of life and go 10 years without being close to a woman. And that's, you know, one of the hardest things for some young guys to adapt to or to process, because all that energy. They're human beings, they're males, they're Earth creatures, all those energies still exist within them. So in some ways, I thought that was an act of great kindness. That guy brought it out.

A (73:15)

Did you have any experiences or at any moment you were genuinely feared for your life?

C (73:22)

No. I had one moment of. One moment where someone was angry about something I said and he was pissed, but it dissipated and nothing came of it.

A (73:37)

Can you.

C (73:38)

I can tell you exactly. I can tell you Exactly. It was May 2008, and one of the TVs was on. There's no sound. The TV was on. And I said out loud, I thought Barack Obama was going to win. And this guy who was African American from Pittsburgh was sure I'd only said that out loud because I was trying to humiliate him and his friends. Because of course, that would never happen. They would never let an African American man win the presidency. So he thought the only reason I would say that out loud would be to humiliate the black men on my unit, which was not my. I was. At that time, I was rooting for Barack Obama, and I really thought he was going to win early. I thought he just had. The winds were going his direction and the guy was like, pissed. He thought I was trying to humiliate him. And being humiliated and disrespect is a huge deal. A huge deal. Not just in jail, everywhere on earth, but in jail too. You know, I remember exactly. So election night came and like, I guess it was like 8 o', clock, they called Ohio for Obama. I'm like, he won. Because I knew if he won Ohio, he was going to win the whole thing. But most of the men were like, no, no, no, they can still take it away from him. California is still out there. And I'm thinking, he's going to get California. But they're like, no, they'll still. There's still time. You know that little radios people were 3, 4 to an earbud listening on the radios. It was a huge event. It was a huge event. Unfortunately, they turn off the TVs at like 11. So the. We weren't able to watch the acceptance speech, but when they called it for him, that guy who had like, I think seven bodies on his case. So he had a pretty serious case, and he hadn't. We hadn't spoken since that day. Although we pass each other, he comes up to me, tears like streaming down his face, takes me by the hand and says, you told me. You told me. And like, there was. Whatever energy was between us was gone. And it was a very. I mean, it was incredible to be there that night. And the. And the men did were crowded around little earbuds, you know, the little radio we had. So you'd have three, three around each earbud, straining to hear the acceptance speech. It was a huge event in that room. Super exciting, very powerful. And actually when they called it another guy who, who was hilarious, who I loved, it was absolutely hilarious. They, because of my skin color, assumed I was rooting for McCain. And so a guy comes up and he's got like an ice bucket, like they would pour over the winning or losing, like coach. Luckily I ran away in town, but the. In time. But the idea was to like, douse me in the ice because of course, I had lost because of my skin color. My team had lost.

A (76:39)

Was it like the most memorable election experiences for you? Would the emotion be way more intensified in a room like that, in a setting like that?

C (76:49)

Well, everything's intensified in a setting like that because you've got hundred men with these huge feelings going through the worst times of their lives. Everything felt big. Everything felt big. But I'll never forget that. That, of course, was a thrill to be a part of that. And then, of course, it just. The room was just buzzing because it was just absolutely impossible to most of the men on that unit that something like that could happen.

A (77:16)

Were there any conflicts because of this, the election result? No, really, after that was called things move on.

C (77:26)

Oh, yeah. And the guy who was going to pour ice on my head was doing it with love and was doing it like as a joke.

A (77:31)

I find that interesting in comparative.

C (77:34)

The world was different. I mean, yeah, life of my unit was different. There really wasn't, you know, tensions like that. Political, racial, ethnic, religious. We all pretty much on my unit, thank God, got along. The only time there was like a moment of ethnic tension was there were a group of guys that all spoke Russian and two were Russian and one was from the country of Georgia. So he spoke Russian, but he was ethnically Georgian in the Caucasus region. And everyone called him Russia. That was like his nickname because he spoke Russian. Lovely guy. And there was this day when Russia invaded Georgia and suddenly he didn't want to hang out with the other Russian guys. He's like, f you guys. And he made an announcement. My nickname is no longer Russia. Don't call me that name anymore. And he was very serious about it because he saw that invasion and kicked into his nationality. And so his relationship to that events changed his social relationship. And I didn't see him talk to the Russian guys again. Wow.

A (78:45)

So you're saying there's not that many clicks or groups that has conflicts and tensions all the time.

C (78:52)

Not. I didn't, I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel that way. There certainly were, you know, there's East Africans, West Africans, African Americans, those were Muslims were kind of known group, obviously the Spanish speakers kind of hung out. There was the great debate I saw twice between the East Africans and the West Africans was where was the Garden of Eden? Was it in Ethiopia or Nigeria? And of course, they were both sure that they were right as it was great. I mean, it's the thrill.

A (79:20)

You were only told eight hours before you were getting released. You know, what was that like someone just pull you aside, delivered the news and then what happened after that? The last eight hours and after you were released?

C (79:32)

So I. There was some expectation that I might get out after one year. Well, actually there was some expectation after six months, but they said no to that. After a year they said yes. And so I found out from a phone call either to my lawyer, to my family the night before, and they said, you're. You're getting out. And so that was it. The next morning they said, you're going to court. So they woke me up early. I went through that whole elaborate process of being taken out of the unit, through the hallways, moved through.

A (80:07)

What was the. What was going through your mind when you hear that news? Was it. Would you say that's like the happiest day of your life, or were you on cloud night?

C (80:16)

I mean, it just was like. It's like a, you know, just burst of energy, you know, it was super intense. I don't know, it didn't. I can't really describe. It's not like winning anything. It's not like my case was over. It's not like my problems were over, but I certainly was like. It was just this kind of electric electrified, you know, And I said my goodbyes. I mean, I felt close to a lot of those guys. You know, one guy came out, tears coming down his face, you know, and.

A (80:48)

They were so happy for you that they're crying.

C (80:50)

Well, they were sad, you know, they were sad to say goodbye. You know, I mean, we were each other's whole life. No iPhones, no. No leaving the room to go anywhere else. We were each other's whole life. And we'd gone through some of the biggest moments of our lives together. So the relationships were, I mean, not like, I don't know, very unique kind of bond, but certainly close. I mean, I would love to see some of those guys again. We're not allowed to be in touch, you know, during your period of basically probation, supervised release, you can't contact anyone else with a felony record for a few years, and who knows where they are. Soon I went out and went through the. The, you know, the basement tunnels, got to the inte intake processing room, change clothes. Shackled, hands and feet hooked up to the other guys. Put on that bus, you know, taken up, I think up an elevator, maybe even out the gates in Sunset park. Driven back to the courthouse in the shackled hand and feet again. You know, you're like shuffling along in the bullpen at the courthouse.

A (82:03)

The same courthouse.

C (82:04)

Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. 500, plural. Yeah, yes, yes. Laura, Manhattan. And suddenly, there. Take me up to the courtroom, still handcuffed and still in my prison uniform, and waiting to pick me up was this woman who I'd worked with, Good friend. A woman who my mother had stayed with when she came up to visit me. And she was there, and she had clothes for me, street clothes, pants, belt, shirt. My house keys, credit card. And there she was. And she saw me in that uniform, handcuffed, which I'm sure was A shock for her. And then suddenly they take the handcuffs off and they say, okay, come and you just put on my street clothes. And she walked me out and she put me in a cab. I got a little way in the cab, but I got car sick because of course I'd never seen anything move faster than someone walking for a year. So I had to lean out and throw up on sidewalk. And suddenly I'm like back in my apartment, you know, by myself and in my clothes. And my brain's still buzzing because the noise, the light, the stress. And it took me, I don't know, probably a year or two really, to decompress.

A (83:24)

Wow.

C (83:25)

But I'll never forget being able to like, close the bathroom door. I was like, oh my gosh. This is the luxury of being able to close. No one lived with me, but I'm like, I'm closing this bathroom door every time the rest of my life. But also being able to like, pick what I ate.

A (83:44)

What did you eat?

C (83:44)

The first day I went out for sushi, I went to Gourmet Garage, 7th Avenue south and 10th street, which is now closed, unfortunately. And I think I got like salmon sushi and I think I got some Ben and cherries and. But I. I hardly knew. Could process the choice, you know, walking through the sidewalk, everything was, you know, sort of foreign. Not foreign. Everything was just, you know, I just couldn't. It took a while to process normal life as normal again.

A (84:20)

How was the first night going from only sleeping in?

C (84:24)

Oh, the bed felt amazing. Bed felt. It was thrilling to be in a bed. My own bed, my stuff, my tv, my books, my clothes, my own underwear, socks. Oh, thrilling.

A (84:39)

So you had no trouble falling asleep?

C (84:41)

No trouble falling asleep. I got my first iPhone, I sent my first text in a few days. It was like 2009, which I'd never done before. And it's like I slowly, like came back online. It took a long time. It was not very long. Just a few days before I flew to Missouri and where I stayed with my parents for. Until my sentencing.

A (85:04)

And after sentencing, it was done.

C (85:07)

Well, I had, I had three more years, what they call supervised release, like probation. So in that first year, I had a few more times where I do in person check ins, drug tests, where they visit your house. Normal, rational kind of systems in place to make sure that someone doesn't cause, you know, readjust to life as a law abiding citizen.

A (85:32)

I, I think throughout this whole interview, I think everybody can tell how much passion you have for helping all these people. That's kind of what you do today, now, right? Can you tell us about what you do? How did you even get this job and what does it mean for you?

C (85:47)

Well, as, as you'd said earlier, I had worked in the theater for my career before I got in trouble and I went back and did some directing again, directed an off Broadway musical, directed a drama school. But the money wasn't enough. And thankfully, kind of out of the blue over LinkedIn, I connect with Michael Santos, who is really a big leader in helping people that are going through the system. He spent over 20 years, over 9,000 days, I think over 26 years in prison. And he gave himself a world class education. He helped a lot of people. And he met a business partner, Justin Paperni, and the two of them started basically a consulting firm to help people go through that legal process, to start pivoting towards the future, make choices that made sense, choices that were adaptive. Prepare for sentencing. Because when I was going through this, I was totally disoriented. I was, felt like it was the end of my life. I couldn't get sober. I did a lot of stuff to hurt myself, or I should say a lot of bad choices. I did not adapt. I felt total despair and totally lost. And these two guys have put their voices out there to help people just like I was, guide them through this situation. Because a lot of people that go through the system, especially the federal system, which has a different set of crimes they prosecute than the state system. A lot of people, it's their first case and so they said, do you want to come work for us? Because one of the things we do is that in preparation for sentencing, we help defendants tell their stories. You know, over like 95% of federal cases end with a guilty plea. So these are people who have accepted responsibility, know they're going to be sentenced. They're, they're not saying they didn't do anything. And Michael and Justin started this firm and part of that was to help the defendants and their families write letters to the judge so the judge could see their case in the context of their whole life. They could accept full responsibility, talk about the victims, talk about their plans to make amends, but talk about other things, talk about their future plans, talk about how they can use their time in prison to be productive, to give themselves an education, to shift their thinking from self destructive and harmful behavior to a different kind of attitude towards life. One that's sober, one that's productive, one that's focused on positive activity, obeying the law, not doing harm and So I really was moved that they invited me to be part of their team. And that was, you know, seven plus years ago. And I've now worked with hundreds of people going through the system from all over the country, from Alaska to Hawaii to Maine to Florida. People that from all over the world, their cases are here. People of all ages, you know, from someone who's, you know, 20 to someone who's in their 70s, all kinds of conduct, all kinds of lengths of sentences. A lot of people that are famous, people that have been on tv, people with big cases, people with big consequences and other where it's a tiny case and you can't believe they even bothered bringing it and they end up getting, you know, home confinement or probation or somebody who goes through the pre trial process, the hell of all that for years and years and the case gets dropped. So people go through the system for all kinds of reasons, having broken the law for all, in all kinds of ways, but the system is still the system. And when a case starts, it feels like an earthquake in the middle of your life. And not just yours, your family. And you can be sitting there out on bail and find out, boom, they're taking your house, Boom, you have a billion dollar company you founded, it's gone. Your reputation is ruined. The, the DOJ puts out a press release and describes you in the worst possible way. Put stuff out that like it's not been proven in court, but just putting out all. So it's just huge feelings whether you're in jail or not. You sort of lose your story. Suddenly the government's telling your story and the government's just going to tell what's going to help them win. Now there's a place for justice system. I respect it. We need an orderly way to process harm that people do to each other. We need to have laws. It's not America's worldwide. There are jails and laws and judges and police. It's part of being on earth and I respect the need for that. But when the case is United States versus me, it's intense and they win. And they're very good at winning and they know how to do it and they're, they're very, have a lot of experience. So when you're on the receiving end of that, it's painful. And not everyone survives that. Not everyone survives the despair or the loss. Not everyone can see their way through to the other side. And so my role with this consulting firm which is called White Collar Advice and a non profit I'm starting called Defendant Support, you Know just whatever I can do as someone who can help them tell their story, help talk about sobriety, tell them about my experience. Because the truth is, I feel happier, younger, more optimistic, better than I have my whole life. And I had to go through that to get here. And they can hear that in my voice, and I can be on the phone with them. I might know some of these defendants for years between when they get their target letter or when they get arrested to their sentencing hearing. Some people I know, years after I had lunch with some guy who I wrote his. Helped him write his personal narrative. I don't know, 2018. And he was like, he's in horrible shape. I was in horrible shape. If you'd seen me at my lowest moments, shackled hands and feet or in a cell 23 hours a day, you'd have thought, this guy's not gonna survive. That's a horrible shape. But people can get through that. They can reckon with harm, they can take responsibility, they can make amends, they can go through a healing process. And part of that healing process, that process of reckoning can be painful. But it's one season of life. Even if you've done something serious, even if you've really done serious harm, it's one season of life. And if you start heading in the right direction, there's a path to healing, there's a path to making amends, there's a path to making peace with your victims. There's a path to reconnecting with community and family, ending despair. The darkness can lift, but you gotta head towards the light. And so if I can help someone do that, I mean, sometimes when someone changes directions, they pivot in the right direction, they take the right steps, they take responsibility and make amends in the right way. A judge can see that, and a judge can see that someone has done that work, and that might get them a lighter sentence.

A (92:53)

So you help people when they're in their darkest time?

C (92:58)

Oh, yes, always. Many times. Talking to people on their worst days. But I hear that, and I can already picture them getting better, you know, because I'm in a sober fellowship. I've seen people come in death's door, come back to life and get years of sobriety or someone catch a case, get arrested, feel like it's the end of their life, and see them come back to life. I've seen over and over. And the path is available for everybody.

A (93:25)

Exactly who should be reaching out to you or your firm when the feds are knocking on their door? Are you mainly focusing on the white Collar crimes.

C (93:34)

Well, for white collardvice.com you know, my boss is Justin Papardi, Michael Santos have a huge amount of mitigation information for free for anybody. So you can get a lot of information just by going to their website. Prisonprofessors.org I think is a non profit that has lots of incredible educational materials for people that are in jail right now. It's all about getting people through the system to rejoin the world as good neighbors, family members. So if somebody's in trouble, has a relative in trouble, trouble, go see what information is there. Some people want to know more about me. They can go to Bradrouse.com they can see about my whole life because even though most people just wanted me to talk about jail, I had a whole life before, whole life after. And I help people in other ways. There are other ways people going through the system that a non profit, hopefully next year defendant support will be there. People have reached out to me to talk to their classes, to, you know, come to conferences, all that's available. But for somebody who's in trouble, who has a family member with a case, you know, really the first stop, if I were to suggest would go to my boss's website. There are other consulting firms and companies who do that. But my two bosses is dedicated, you know, since 2008, I think they started this 2009. They've worked with thousands of people and the amount of information they've collected over the years is great. And a lot of that people get for free their YouTube videos or if they want some services that cost money, they can talk to them about that.

A (95:08)

How important is it for, you know, for example, you're writing a letter to the judge, right? The difference in, you know, you guys providing a well written letter versus someone who doesn't have that does. How big of an impact could that make?

C (95:23)

Impact is different there. Every judge has their own frame of mind and attitude. I think, you know, these letters and doing them yourself not by AI because AI letters don't do the trick. I think the process of putting together is very healthy because in my mind I don't care so much. I don't care so much about how. What the sentence level is. A lot of that's set by formula. And whether they get a little less or a little more, that's not what's in my heart heart. It's in my heart is turning them from that dark moment of despair to reckoning what. What happened in a way that's honest and orderly and, and gets them through this Process. It's very painful and can take many years so that they come out the other side and they're better than when they started. I certainly am in better shape now before I went through the system. And a lot of people we work with come out in the best physical, mental, intellectual, educational, spiritual shape of their whole life. And you can have that positive journey and sometimes putting it all together where you look at, okay, this trauma happened. He was young. I grew up in a war zone. I was sexually abused. My mother was murdered in front of me. All these things that I've heard about, you know, and that injured my thinking, and it got me off track. I develop a gambling addiction, a drug addiction. I started doing harm to myself. I was desperate for money. I broke the law. Now I have victims. Like, when you put it all together in the right way, people can survive their story. They can heal their hearts, and their best days can be in front of them.

A (97:02)

One advice would you give someone who's. Let's say they're in trouble, they're at a very, very hard time in their life.

C (97:09)

Well, first of all, don't break the law. Following the law is a very good idea. I really suggest it. So following the law is good, you know, taking basic care of your health. Eat well. Don't pour drugs or alcohol in your body. Don't get too isolated. Make sure you stay connected. We're Earth creatures. We need other people. We want good health. Our brain is just one organ in our bodies. So if we're in a dark place, we're despairing. We're having dark thoughts, doing harm to ourselves or others. Don't have to stay in that. You know that you're in your winter and the spring is around the corner, but you gotta head towards the light. Don't stay isolated. Don't keep secrets, you know, with a lot of people that are in. In trouble. You know, in recovery, we say you're only as sick as your secrets. So isolation is bad. Pouring drugs and alcohol on your problems, on your feelings, on your. On anger, all of that. Bad idea, you know, don't double down on the harm. Look for people in your life that feel safe, who are at peace, that can be a teacher, that can be a sibling, that can be a neighbor. Don't head towards the darkness if you're in a dark headspace. Don't go online and look for more darkness. Put the screen away. Come back to life. We want anybody who's in a dark place. I can hear my voice. We want you back. We want you back. Head towards the light. Listen to my voice. There are a lot of positive voices out there. We want you to live. We want you to be healthy, we want you to be well and, you know, just keep heading in the right direction. That's what I'd say. There's a lot of love in the world. Even when I was in jail in one of the darkest times of my life, there were angels in there. There was a psychiatrist who helped me. There was a farm tech that helped me. There were other prisoners that helped me. There are a lot of angels that you can't see sometimes until you need them. But being o having your heart open, looking for peace and light, don't double down on the darkness. Don't bury yourself in your room, on your iPhones in the darkness. Get out. Look for those angels. They're all around.

A (99:18)

Thank you.

C (99:21)

How was that.