How Weak Democrat Leadership Has Enabled Left Wing Extremism

Summary

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Ruthless Podcast Detailed Summary

Episode Overview

Title: How Weak Democrat Leadership Has Enabled Left Wing Extremism
Date: September 16, 2025
Hosts: Josh Holmes, Comfortably Smug, Michael Duncan, John Ashbrook
Special Guest: Scott Cooper (Director, Office of Personnel Management)

Main Theme:
The episode offers a raw and frank discussion on the aftermath of escalating political violence in America, particularly focusing on the lack of Democratic leadership confronting extremism within their ranks. The hosts analyze recent events, share personal reactions, and are later joined by Scott Cooper for a deep dive into federal workforce reform. The conversation blends news analysis with personal reflections, conservative critique, policy insights, and the show’s characteristic banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Political Violence and Public Reaction

The Charlie Kirk Assassination

• The episode opens with a somber assessment of the reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination, focusing not just on the act but on the disturbing positivity or indifference from portions of the left and everyday Americans online.
• The hosts express shock and disgust at the percentage of liberals who think celebrating the assassination of political opponents is acceptable.
• Polling Highlight: 24% of liberals believe it's okay to be happy about the death of a political opponent (05:51).

Declining Social Contract

• The hosts reflect on the breach of fundamental American values: “It feels like a violation of that social contract… We don’t celebrate the murder, the assassination of an American.” (09:51, Unidentified Host)
• John Ashbrook references an Abraham Lincoln quote:

  “If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we must live through all time or die by suicide.” (10:37, John Ashbrook)

Nihilism and Generational Shifts

• Discussion covers generational differences, noting younger Americans’ increasing nihilism about political violence.
• Holmes draws historical parallels with the JFK, RFK, and MLK assassinations, highlighting the loss of a societal consensus against such violence compared to past decades (16:40).

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2. Failure of Democratic Leadership

Leadership Vacuum

• Central theme: “There’s an absolute vacuum of leadership on their side to confront that, to do anything about it.” (00:20 / 24:40, Michael Duncan)
• Hosts repeatedly return to failures by current Democratic leaders to offer clear condemnation or guidance, seeing only “platitudes” or “both-sidesism” instead of moral clarity.
• The “matador with a red cape” metaphor is used for Democratic leaders deflecting rather than confronting extremism (22:02, Josh Holmes).

Critique of Specific Leaders

• Josh Shapiro: Described as talented but ultimately failing to stand up after being a victim of left-wing violence himself, retreating to “both sides” rhetoric (21:01-21:44).
• Joe Biden: Accused of trading genuine leadership for appeasement of the far left, leading to agency capture without clear direction (22:35).
• General Point: The last three Democratic nominees (Biden, Hillary, Kamala) all viewed as compromised figures who “let you run the show”.

Consequence: Grassroots Radicalization

• The lack of leadership is blamed for emboldening the grassroots left, pushing the party further into extreme rhetoric and behavior.
• Hosts cite Politico reporting elected Democrats are pressured by their base to “go fight somebody, go shoot somebody, go punch somebody.” (24:11, Michael Duncan)

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3. Conservative Movement Response & Introspection

Personal Reflections

• Hosts express emotional exhaustion and self-questioning in light of violence and toxic discourse:

  “I was ashamed that I had that reaction...then I spent the whole week ...and then...maybe a better reaction to that is do more and be better and recommit yourself.” (12:21, Unidentified Host)

• The hosts urge collective recommitment to positive activism.

Rejecting Both-Sides Narratives

• Hosts are emphatic that this is not “political violence on both sides,” and are frustrated when Republican leaders lapse into such rhetoric:

  “I do not want to hear anyone talk about political violence or both sides. That's not what this is.” (14:20, Michael Duncan)

Conservative Values

• The contrast is drawn between the right’s respect for the social fabric and the country, versus perceived leftist nihilism:

  “You don’t see conservatives out...an eye for an eye. You know why? Because we like this country...” (29:23, Josh Holmes)

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4. The Government Shutdown Standoff

Breakdown of Key Points

• The looming government shutdown is discussed as a recurring symptom of leadership abdication, with Democrats accused of refusing to take responsibility or negotiate in good faith.
• Republicans in the House are proposing a clean Continuing Resolution (CR) to keep the government funded; Democrats are accused of withholding support to avoid upsetting their base (36:10-36:48).
• Holmes argues if Democrats cause a shutdown, President Trump will be equipped to win the messaging war due to his “master of messaging” skills (39:02).

Criticisms of Congressional Dysfunction

• The hosts are openly frustrated with both parties' inability to prioritize the country’s needs over politics, but lay ultimate blame for present dysfunction at the Democratic Party’s door (37:51-38:18).

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5. Bureaucratic Reform - Scott Cooper Interview

About Scott Cooper

• Career: Houston-born, legal background, longtime tech executive (Andreessen Horowitz), now Director of OPM.
• Motivation: Left a lucrative private sector career “for love of country.”

OPM’s Mandate and Innovations

• OPM’s Role: “We’re responsible overall for talent in the federal government...how do we hire, fire, promote...” (43:34, Scott Cooper)
• Federal Headcount Reduction: From 2.4M to approx. 2.1M expected by year’s end. Target: 4 government exits for each new hire. “We will meet or exceed that target.” (47:08, Scott Cooper)
• Performance Management Overhaul:
  • Previously, 70% were rated 4 or 5 (top scores), 0.3% at the bottom—self-sustaining bloat (50:41-51:06).
  • New forced distribution and stricter performance plans, cutting endless “Performance Improvement Plans” to 30 days (51:48).
  • Shift toward skill-based, not self-assessed hiring—practical tests over resume padding (51:41-52:54).

Cultural and Efficiency Revolution

• Bureaucratic Incentives: “Every other incentive is just keep growing every year...” (49:18, Scott Cooper)
• Reform Approaches:
  • Incentivizing efficiency: “We are doing something...’gain sharing’...We literally handed the person a $10,000 check.” (58:11)
  • Eliminating waste: Example, Combined Federal Campaign cost $22M to raise $68M for charity—Cooper aims to root out and eliminate such inefficiencies.
  • Recognition as non-monetary motivator.
• Challenges: Congressional parochialism: Even small reforms impact local constituencies, making systemic change slow and difficult (66:17-68:32).

Notable Quotes from Scott Cooper

• “I have a very simple view of life, which is organizations are just people, right? And people respond to incentives. It’s very simple.” (59:23)
• “Every amount of savings is too small, so let’s not bother, right?...It’s more about, do we change the culture?” (63:44)
• “These careers will all outlast people like me...Can I find the people in the organization who actually do want to embrace change and align them with our goals...” (56:46-57:09)

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6. Variety Segment: IMAX CEO Lawsuit

• Hosts share a New York Post story about the IMAX CEO whose ex-wife allegedly cannot take out life insurance on him due to hard partying.
• Banter centers around the absurdity and humor in ex-spouses seeking post-divorce life insurance, with mock speculation about motivations and insurance company decisions (71:01-73:24).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------| | 05:51 | “24% of Liberals believe it’s okay to be happy about the death of a political opponent.” | Josh Holmes | | 10:37 | “If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher.” | John Ashbrook (Lincoln)| | 14:20 | “I do not want to hear anyone talk about political violence or both sides. That’s not what this is.” | Michael Duncan | | 22:02 | “What you’re getting is the equivalent of a matador with a red cape getting the bull through without getting hit themselves.” | Josh Holmes | | 24:11 | “Our voters are telling us; go shoot somebody, go do something. Go fight somebody, go punch somebody.” | Michael Duncan | | 29:23 | “You don’t see conservatives out...an eye for an eye...Because we like this country...” | Josh Holmes | | 47:08 | “We started the year with about 2.4 million civilian employees. We expect to end the year closer to 2.1 million.” | Scott Cooper | | 58:11 | “We are doing something in government—we call it gain sharing...we literally handed the person a $10,000 [for saving $500k].” | Scott Cooper | | 63:44 | “Every amount of savings is too small, so let’s not bother, right?...It’s more about, do we change the culture?” | Scott Cooper |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00-02:40 — Cold Open/Setting the Emotional Tone: Initial reaction to the assassination and public response.
• 04:53-13:25 — Societal Contract and Breakdown: Discussion on the shift in social attitudes towards political violence.
• 14:20-15:28 — No Both-Sides: Strong rejection of false equivalence in political violence.
• 16:40-20:00 — Historical Context and Generational Change.
• 20:52-27:22 — Democratic Leadership Lapses: Focus on figures like Shapiro, Biden, and broader trends.
• 29:20-32:19 — Conservative Values and National Stakes.
• 33:55-41:11 — Government Shutdown Analysis.
• 43:04-69:19 — Scott Cooper/OPM Interview: Federal workforce reform, efficiency drives, culture change.
• 71:01-73:42 — Variety Segment: Lighthearted discussion on the IMAX CEO and life insurance suit.

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Conclusion

This episode addresses a sobering national mood following high-profile political violence, interrogating the shifting American social contract and sharply critiquing Democratic Party leadership for failing to confront extremism within its ranks. The hosts offer both condemnatory and introspective perspectives, rejecting facile “both sides” narratives. The interview with Scott Cooper stands out as a substantive and optimistic interlude, offering real-world examples of bureaucratic reform and innovative efficiency models in government. The show concludes with trademark wit, blending policy, emotion, and humor in ways that speak to both their loyal audience and a broader conservative milieu.

Transcript

[Josh Holmes]

That they don't have a place in this country and that the only way to get through it is violence. It's picked up. People aren't born this way.

[John Ashbrook]

I had no words for the reaction to the moving speech his wife made. There were people online attacking his widow.

[Josh Holmes]

They want blood, I think was the.

[Michael Duncan]

They want blood like they are elected Democrats are hearing this and there's an absolute vacuum of leadership on their side to confront that, to do anything about it.

[Josh Holmes]

The rank and file is scared.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Our nation is standing up for American.

[Josh Holmes]

Workers, restoring the pride of making products here at home. That's what we do every day. We're America's beverage companies, making American products with American workers in America's hometowns, delivering brands that have been enjoyed for generations, creating good paying jobs, the kind that require only a strong work ethic.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Because we believe in the promise of.

[Josh Holmes]

America and the people who make it great.

[John Ashbrook]

Ladies and gentlemen, your attention please.

[Michael Duncan]

Keep the faith, hold the line and own the lids.

[John Ashbrook]

It's time for our main event.

[Josh Holmes]

Good Tuesday to you. Welcome back to the Ruthless variety program. We're shot out of a cannon here on a big week. I'm Josh Holmes along with comfortably smug Michael Duncan and John Ashbrook. Left to right, across your radio dial. Fellas, thank you for filling in for me on Friday. Very important show.

[Michael Duncan]

Well done. Yeah, I mean, and the whole gang is back together. We've got a lot of great stuff to talk about. We have a great guest. We do have a great guest, huge guest.

[Josh Holmes]

Scott Cooper, the director of the Office of Personnel Management over at the White House. He's going to explain why it is that that matters to you. And believe me, it matters more than you think. That is a title that sounds like hre, doesn't it? Yeah, there's elements of that for sure, but it's how you don't essentially employ a bunch of people to push paper from one side or another and get like government pensions and drain taxpayer dollars to the point where you're $36 trillion in debt, basically. And it turns out when you put somebody who's been in charge of the most innovative companies and funds and things over the years in charge of something like that, well, they have some innovative ideas and this is one of those guys. Great interview.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. He's got great news to share with us. When I heard it, I was like, wow.

[Josh Holmes]

I know. Actually some really, really impressive stuff. So look forward to that here. Coming up shortly, I think one of the things we wanted to get to off the top, I think the collective nature of the conservative movement has moved from sadness, fear, sadness, to anger, injustice. And we're tracking with all that. And I think you've heard the last two episodes that we've done of the Ruthless Variety Program in the wake of the assassination of Charlie Kirk and probably had similar conversations at your own dinner table that we were having here live on air. We're going to continue in one form, and that is an observation that we have made by being involved in this line of work for 20 plus years and staying pretty well in touch with everybody across the middle of the country. And thank you for the millions of people who like and subscribe to the Ruthless Variety program and listen to us because we get your input and your thoughts on all of this, which helps form our views in addition to just being a part of the process and seeing this country go through a whole bunch of difficult times that we've had a variety of roles behind over the years. And the one thing that really stands out to us at this point is that, you know, look, every conservative podcast in America is going to talk to you a lot about like all the left wing reaction to this. And we're not immune to it. I mean, look, we see all this stuff, we're outraged by it. We can't believe that there are any humans in America that call themselves Americans who draw breath that could have any other reaction other than sadness for a father who has murdered a three and a one year old, a grieving wife and family, and not only that, but what he meant to the movement. See, when you see any reaction other than that, there's like a dysphoria.

[Michael Duncan]

It's jarring.

[Josh Holmes]

It's jarring because we, and I mean this like pretty loosely within the conservative movement sort of center right and beyond, there's a human component that just takes over your initial reaction. You heard the episode we did last Thursday when we first learned, I mean, it was 10 minutes after we first learned of the news that we taped it. And that was our, that was just our reaction. We threw the show sheet out and we just gave it to you. That was our reaction. Turns out the left, they don't have that sort of thing. Which leads us to a larger conversation. Right, and how is it that we got to this point? So we're going to, we're going to examine some of this stuff. But where it starts, and I mean this sincerely, where it starts is a profound lack of leadership on the left. It doesn't matter how we got to where we are, it requires leadership to actually back off of it to get back to appreciation for what makes America. The social fabric, the social construct, the things that we all agree on as a society that make us who we are, that makes us better than medieval times and a superpower, which is what we are. And thank God President Trump has reminded us in some ways that we are actually that we are a leader of the free world. And the only way that we can be dethroned in any meaningful way is either ignoring it or allowing destruction from within, which we're not there. So I understand. I don't want to be hyperbolic about it. We're not destroying it, but there's a not insignificant portion of the population that doesn't agree on the basics. I mean, there was a poll that said 24% of Liberals believe it's okay to be happy about the death of a political opponent. 24%. Nearly a quarter of liberals in this country who think that it's okay to root on something like that. You saw this in the aftermath of the Luigi Mangioni assassinate when he was assassinating the CEO of, what was it, the healthcare company.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yeah.

[Josh Holmes]

And it was jarring. And at that time, it was like, well, this feels really one off in many ways to me.

[Michael Duncan]

As I've been trying to get a grasp on this situation, I've felt like it's kind of been an escalation of a year ago. We saw multiple assassination attempts on Donald Trump. Right. And it was like, my God, the horror of this. And then you're like, well, the Dems are like, we hate Trump. That's where this energy comes from. Then it goes down. Now you saw a CEO get murdered. This guy's got a family. And you saw the left be like, yeah, that's okay. And you're like, well, maybe because they're just like communists and they hate CEOs. And then you saw this, and this is why I got the text from my friends back home. Normal Americans saw a lot of folks online, a lot of people who are teachers, doctors, every day, they thought, everyday Americans cheering on the death of a guy just like us, a normal dude, a guy who's got a family, guy who was just. I mean, his belief system was essentially what everyone's grandparents and dads here believe in. Just guy who believes in faith and loves the country. And it was jarring for my friends and I think for all the normal people in this country to be like, wait, what? Why are there people cheering this on? That was jarring. The escalation has gotten to the point where what, 24% say yes, cheer on the death of people who disagree with you.

[Unidentified Male Host]

And that's sort of the thing. And you alluded to it earlier, Holmes was sort of this social contract. And I think that is the thing thing right now, not just in the conservative movement, but broadly in the United States. That's sort of reverberating now, is that psychological impact.

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Male Host]

To seeing a bunch of people that, you know, friends from high school, all.

[Josh Holmes]

Of us have had the experience of looking at a social media thing, whether it's like Facebook or Instagram or somebody you know at some point, whether you went to high school with them or junior high or whatever, where you followed them for whatever reason because they were an acquaintance and you haven't really kept up with them over the years, and they posted something.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Right. And it's like, it feels like a violation of that social contract of, like, what we are all supposed to believe in as Americans. Like, we don't celebrate the murder, the assassination of an American.

[Josh Holmes]

Like, I thought we were all on the First Amendment bus.

[John Ashbrook]

Well, fellas, as horrified as I was to see this, that reaction to the Kirk assassination, I was just. I had no words for the reaction to the. The moving speech his wife made. There were people online attacking his widow, and I. I just couldn't believe it. And Holmes, you just. You hit on something that reminded me of. Of a great quote from Abraham Lincoln that he said 25 years before the Civil War, he said, if destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of free men, we must live through all time or die by suicide. And I think that that is a really good thing to remember, why we need to stand up and do what it is that we know is important. We have to fight for this country. We have to fight for what we know is right.

[Josh Holmes]

And look, this isn't about us. It's obviously about the conservative movement. It's about this country. It's about Charlie. It's about his family. It's about all of those components to it. It's a rough time to be in this line of work, if I'm being honest.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Okay, can I have a little bit of a confession here?

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Because, like, I was there, and, like, we got. We went and got lunch on. On. On Friday, and it was like, you know, I'm not, like, proud of this reaction to it. And of course, my first thing, you know, that I was thinking about was Charlie, and then his. His. His wife and those poor kids. And we did two episodes about it, and it's like, man, this is just heavy. Yeah, it's like sort of like, like I didn't sign up for this sort of thing.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Male Host]

And, and for everybody listening or watching this who wasn't like back ogs or haven't been, you know, watching and listening the whole time, like we have day jobs, we've got other careers and we've done other things. We did this because.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah, we were, we were, we went to the mountaintop. Yeah. On the political consulting side and decided to do this because we enjoyed doing it.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Right. And, and, and so like I, at some point, like when you are, you know, over the weekend and thinking about this, you're like, did I really sign up for this sort of thing?

[Josh Holmes]

Right. Yep.

[Unidentified Male Host]

And I was kind of ashamed of that.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah, totally, dude. Totally open kimono.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yeah, I was sort of. I was ashamed that I had that reaction. And then I spent the whole week, my wife was out of town on a bachelorette party and I kind of had a lot of time to think. But then I also had the distraction of taking care of my kids and everything. And then I saw the light through that. Cause I got to get off social media for the weekend and sort of think about what matters. And then I thought to myself, maybe a better reaction to that is do more and be better and recommit yourself to, to make the show more and better. And if everybody out there in the conservative movement thought in a way of how they could do that, that's a positive thing that everyone could do for the movement, not just us, but like all the people that were inspired by Charlie, all these young kids, all the other people in our line of work, for everybody from Megan Kelly to Guy Benson to Mary Katherine Ham to all of these people, if we just maybe just worked a little harder and did a little bit more, like that's a positive thing to come out of this, you know.

[Josh Holmes]

No, I think that's very, very well said because it is, it is. And it's smug. You alluded to this too. It's, it's when you are seeing particular the Democrats, although there are some Republicans who had this reaction to. When it's like, well, I vigorously oppose political violence and we ought to. And it's like, you know, look, it's hard to not personalize that in some ways when you're, when you're, when you're in a public forum where we're trying to contextualize this for millions of people on a day to day basis.

[Scott Cooper]

When.

[Josh Holmes]

Somebody'S like giving you the talking point, don't feel Great. No, it doesn't feel right. I mean, that was your reaction. You're like, no, yeah, not going to do the. Nobody should politicize this.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, this weekend I had an almost visceral reaction when I saw you had elected officials especially listen primarily. I hope a lot of elected Republicans hear this. I know many listen to our show. Please take this information deeply. I do not want to hear anyone talk about political violence or both sides. That's not what this is. Not what this is. Conservatives are looking to. When we bring up that there is a lack of leadership on the Dem side that has allowed this, we need to see leadership from our side on how you're going to keep us safe and keep this from happening again. I know all you gents had the same horrible conversations I had of what's your life insurance coverage look like? What are we doing to make sure we're safe, our homes are secure, our families are secure. And then if I see elected Republican go on a Sunday show and be like, this is political violence on both sides and we need to tone it.

[Josh Holmes]

No, it doesn't do the trick.

[Michael Duncan]

That doesn't feel great.

[Josh Holmes]

It doesn't do the trick because there's a larger societal fabric conversation that we need to have that we're gonna get to right after this.

[John Ashbrook]

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[Josh Holmes]

All right, so obviously we're talking about the state of this country in terms of the acceptance of violence. And that being like sort of a nihilistic view of America where, you know, like I think back to my grandfather was a big Republican. You know, my parents were both Democrats. There was a, like a wide range within my own family of political ideology and everything else. You're talking about like second generation, you're talking about World War II vets. You're talking like a wild number of people to Come at things from a variety of different places. Not a one of them will say that one of the most impactful moments wasn't the JFK assassination. And that's because he was symbolic of America. We all understood that, right? It was equally concerning with RFK assassination. And Martin Luther King and the 60s felt, at least to my family has been relayed from grandparents and aunts and uncles and parents or whatever is extremely concerning because they were concerned for the country, increasingly what it looks like. And if you look at this YouGov polling and everything else, there's a younger generation of Americans that are extremely nihilistic about this. Not only do they think that it's okay to sort of cheer for the death and destruction of a political opponent, but they're like rolls off their back and it's like, on to the next. And it's why I preface the show with political leadership. The reason that you have political leadership. I mean, you could just be a straight democracy. You wouldn't have to be a republic. You could be just a referendum country where everything it is that we do, we just vote up or down 50 states, majority take all. But the way that our founding fathers envisioned it is that you had people that had some wisdom that that got to a place because people believed in them and their colleagues then believed in them that they could lead us to a better direction. It has worked pretty goddamn well. It has. And we have seen our country through an incredible amount of desperate times as a result. We are now in a situation where there's a Democratic Party for the last eight years that has been absolutely rudderless and absolutely leaderless. And the biggest challenge that they have is not what can we lead our country to? How can we make the next generation better than the last? Than it is protecting the power that it is that we have and not being thrown out of office by the darkest corners of our own political constituency. You hear him talk about it as the Michigan problem, which of course is just anti Semitism. You hear him talk about it in terms of the anxiety within the youth, which you see pop up in a YouGov poll, is people being totally okay with Luigi Mangione assassinating healthcare executives. You can extrapolate that out into what we saw last week. A failure to confront that situation is amongst, in my view, the most treacherous things you can do as a political leader in this country. We've been there, we've seen it. We've seen incredibly difficult times for our own constituency on the right. And it is not easy to try to stare down Something that is boiling over. A pot that is boiling over and say, like, here is a more positive way to direct your energy. But it takes somebody who is willing to put their own political career on the line to say, I don't care whether I serve another day or not.

[Unidentified Male Host]

So the thing I was most disappointed in in that regard, Holmes, is. Is Josh Shapiro.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Unidentified Male Host]

From Pennsylvania.

[Michael Duncan]

That's it right there. Huge.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Who. Who, you know, I think is a skilled, talented politician, swing state. Like somebody who should have been the vice presidential pick from Kamala Harris if not for the Dearborn problem. Right.

[Josh Holmes]

Yep. And he's been a victim.

[Unidentified Male Host]

He's been a victim. His. His governor's mansion was firebombed by a pro Hamas terrorist.

[Josh Holmes]

Yep.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Let's. Let's just say it as simple as that.

[Josh Holmes]

Yep.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Right. And if you would think of like any prominent Democrat in this country who would have a statement that could kind of be like a Sister Soulja moment and say, hey, you know, not for nothing as a Democrat, I've been the victim of left wing violence, that'd be a great statement. But that's not what he did.

[Josh Holmes]

Nope.

[Unidentified Male Host]

He did a both sides thing about rising above and doing whatever that isn't this moment.

[Josh Holmes]

No. Right.

[Michael Duncan]

And.

[Josh Holmes]

And there's no amount of platitudes that can take care of this in that obfuscation.

[Michael Duncan]

You're so right.

[Unidentified Male Host]

It's in that obfuscation of the thing is such a profound cowardice.

[Scott Cooper]

It is.

[Josh Holmes]

But that's what we see, and that's why we led the show with it. That's what we see at each and every level. What you're getting when you get a statement that says, I contemn political violence, you get it from corporations, you get it from sports teams, you get it from the highest levels of the Democratic Party. What you're getting is the equivalent of a matador with a red cape getting the bull through without getting hit themselves. That's what that is.

[John Ashbrook]

Another example of that is what Joe Biden did when he became the Democrats nominee in 2020. He did a deal with the left and basically said that you can run my government as long as I can be in charge. This is the exchange of power for the free ability to just shape our government. And Democrats, I don't think there are so many facets to what the Biden four years did negatively on our country. I don't think we've even come to grips with how deep that goes.

[Josh Holmes]

So.

[Unidentified Male Host]

So I'm glad you mentioned that because what Holmes was saying earlier about how The Democratic Party has been leaderless and rudderless forever. Like, I think. I think it's. It's. It's Biden, it's. It's Hillary, it's Kamala. Like, if you look at their last three nominees for President of the United States, I actually don't think a single one of those. If you did that sort of, like, national referendum that you suggested, Holmes would have actually been the nominee of where the party is.

[Michael Duncan]

Every single one of them made a compromise and a deal with the far left to be like, I'll let you run the show.

[Unidentified Male Host]

I think in the lack of agency that the Democratic Party has had for the last decade, the rank and file and the grassroots has led a lot of those people to a very dark place.

[Josh Holmes]

When you don't have the hearts and minds of. Of your political base, which is exactly what your diagnostic is telling. We don't have the hearts and minds of a political base, you basically need to satisfy them by not speaking truth ever. You just. It's all a masquerade at some level.

[Michael Duncan]

We discussed this on an episode about a month ago where Politico did an article where they were interviewing elected Democrats, and the theme was these Dems were like, our supporters. Our voters are telling us, get out and fight and break something. They were like, the quotes in this, in hindsight, are just horrific where they're like, our voters are telling us, go shoot somebody, go do something. Go fight somebody, go punch somebody.

[Josh Holmes]

They want blood, I think was the.

[Michael Duncan]

They want blood. Like, their elected Democrats are hearing this, and there's an absolute vacuum of leadership on their side to confront that, to do anything about it.

[Josh Holmes]

The rank and file is scared. And what happens when you get a scared rank and file? We know this. We served in a leadership capacity during incredibly tumultuous times for this country. What happens when rank and file politicians get scared of what they're hearing from people who vote for them is they have a tendency to just sort of like, mirror back what it is that they're hearing. Right up until you have a leader that's like, look, there's a higher calling here. And I don't know why you guys got into this line of work. I got into it to pilot this country to the most successful place I can get it. And this is what that looks like. And if you can get along for the ride, I will set an agenda out to try to do that. There is no one on the Democratic side who has done that. You make your arguments about Barack Obama. I think he was the worst president in American history. But he was that leader rhetorically. Rhetorically.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Rhetorically.

[Josh Holmes]

But he captured the Democratic Party. There was nothing that anybody was gonna do to color outside the lines while he was president.

[Scott Cooper]

Right.

[Josh Holmes]

Let's put it that way.

[Michael Duncan]

And I wanna make a good quick comparison is. And then like Duncan says, you look at the subsequent ones, they are such lacking in leadership that they were quite literally interchangeable. Where they're like, biden looks like he's losing, switch out the horse. Because to them it doesn't matter anymore. Dude, it doesn't matter. They're like, just switch him up.

[Scott Cooper]

It doesn't matter.

[Josh Holmes]

Because it's all about political power. They don't care that the Hobson's choice that you need to make the deal with the devil that you need to make in order to stay on top of to get to the point where you're the nominee. Like you wanna run the government. I don't give a shit what we do as long as my name's on the top of the ticket. And that's what they've done from Hillary Clinton to Joe Biden to Kamala Harris. And honestly, you look around, you mentioned Josh Shapiro. He'd be somebody who is by definition capable, thoughtful, smart, huge approval rating in a swing state, all those things. He was a victim of left wing viol that has the capability of actually becoming a leader. What does he do? He's the matador with the red cape. He waves it on through. And like that is the state of the Democratic party. And like, look, this isn't a both sides conversation.

[Scott Cooper]

Nope.

[Josh Holmes]

We are seeing a real endemic cultural problem on the left side. You can make an argument about whether it is rooted in like trans stuff. I mean, there seems to be an awful lot of overlap on that. Or you can make an argument that this is just this nihilistic taught, taught either at a secondary level or at a grad school or a college level, that they don't have a place in this country and that the only way to get through it is violence. It's picked up. People aren't born this way. Right. It's a difference between the Middle east if you're born in fucking Gaza or if you're born in Chicago. The question is what you're raised around in Chicago can look an awful lot like Gaza if every single person around you has a handgun and thinks that it's okay to shoot out their window at 8 o' clock at night. And that is what is being matadored on through by the left on a frequent basis. And you got guys like Governor Pritzker out there who's, like, inviting it Newsom, who tries to pretend like he's got, like, seen the light at some level, like, he can talk to us like normal human beings after ruining the greatest cities in America one by one through his lack of enforcement. Or you have people like Chuck Schumer or Akeem Jeffries who are not interested in any part of making this country a little bit better off for the people who live here, but are more important to make sure that they have their name on the door in a place that says majority leader or minority leader. And that is simply what we have right now on the leadership of the Democratic Party.

[Michael Duncan]

It's called cowardice. That's it. Plain and simple.

[Josh Holmes]

That's it.

[Michael Duncan]

Cowardice.

[Josh Holmes]

That's it. And it's coming through and through. And, like, we're going to keep covering this. I understand that that's not a lot of yucks, but it is. You ought to know it, because there's a lot of people who are like, you know, they don't know what to do. And I think the difference that you don't see conservatives out riding. You don't see conservatives out, like, you know, an eye for an eye. You know why? Because we like this country, because we have a commitment to this country. Because we think this is the greatest place on the. It is the shining city on the hill. And we know that. We know that we're all in this together. And if we don't keep. If our generation doesn't ensure that we get that social fabric back together to lead the free world, God help us. What are you gonna go? Putin xi? That's your alternatives? I mean, God, it's not gonna be Macron, not gonna be, you know, anywhere in Europe. Look what happened to them. I mean, they're, like, desecrating their own backyard. Like, we are it. And until you realize that we are all in this together, you can disagree as much as you want. I mean, that's the beauty of what it is that we do. We have a podcast right now where, like 50% of this country, we find what we say is abhorrent. That's terrific. I love that. You can listen, or you don't have to listen. You can listen just to get ideas on how to combat us from a rhetorical standpoint. But that's what the First Amendment is. That is what our Founding Fathers envisioned, and it has worked pretty damn well. Well, if you give that up to try to create chaos in a nihilistic society, that doesn't give a shit about your neighbor. Regardless of what it is that they believe in, You've given up America altogether. And, like, that's my takeaway.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, that's the cost these elected Democrats and their leadership are willing to pay.

[Josh Holmes]

It is true. It's true. And until I see some evidence, anyone. Shit, I'll have you on like, you can come sit with us if you're willing to stand up and say, you know what? We do have a problem. Someone in our party needs to speak to the younger progressive liberals who've been indoctrinated by college professors to believe that the only way to get out of this is to shoot your way out. I'll have the most warm interview you've ever had right here on the ruthless variety program. It doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. You might find somebody, like, in a local level, a governor or a city councilman or a state senator, a state rep, who will shake their head and tell you in private, this is a problem. Where the fuck are they right now?

[Scott Cooper]

Yep.

[Josh Holmes]

I don't want to hear about your political violence. I don't want to hear that. Because it's a both sidesism. And that's not what's happening right now. It's just not.

[John Ashbrook]

That's right.

[Josh Holmes]

So anyway, that's what we're gonna do when we come back. We're gonna give you just a little tease on what we're dealing with with this government shutdown. It is what it is, but we're gonna get to it right after this.

[John Ashbrook]

Only 58% of Americans today say they're proud to be American, the lowest number ever recorded. That's not just sad, it is very dangerous. Because if we forget what makes America special, we risk losing it. That's why Americans for Prosperity is launching the One Small Step Campaign, a bold nationwide initiative to reconnect Americans with our founding principles that sparked unparalleled innovation and prosperity. It's not just a celebration. It's a call to action. Through the 250,000 Steps for Freedom challenge, AFP is partnering with the grassroots in all 50 states to take meaningful steps that defend freedom and advance opportunity. Call your representative, attend a local event. Knock on a door. Talk to your neighbors. Every single step counts. And every step moves us closer to a more perfect Union. Go to takeonesmallstep.com to learn more. Then join the [e-mail].

[Josh Holmes]

Okay, so what has happened perennially in the 20 years that I've been doing this? It's a Government shutdown. What are they gonna do? Are the Democrats and the Republicans going to agree on a funding deal?

[Scott Cooper]

Oh.

[Josh Holmes]

It'S a perennial conversation. I have a hard time getting worked up over it. But I do find a flashback to the conversation we had with Majority Leader Thune back in June where he came in and told us what exactly was gonna happen in that we had Chuck Schumer, who reluctantly agreed to continue government funding at the same level that it was at. Like, there was no change. It reluctantly, like, he needed to make forward progress in all Republican government for the liberals to be happy about. It nearly lost his job as a result. And Dune's concern back in June is that this guy saw that as a mandate to shut down the government. Well, lo and behold, here we are in the. What is it, second week of September, and it looks like that's going to come true. Johnny, what are you hearing from Hill?

[John Ashbrook]

Well, first of all, I think it's fitting that we're talking about this subject on the heels of what we discussed in the first segment. The lack of Democrat leadership in this country and the fact that Democrats cannot get it through their heads that they have a responsibility to help America move forward. And what we have at the end of this month is the funding bill runs out. Okay. That's what happens. You were talking about. That happens every year.

[Scott Cooper]

And.

[John Ashbrook]

And House Republicans are proposing a clean CR just to keep the government funded. Continue November.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah. And a continuing resolution. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's basically just to ensure that the government funding remains the same as it has been over the last six months, no changes.

[John Ashbrook]

And that's what Republicans in the House are proposing. And they right now have a target date of sometime in November because their hope is that they can write and pass appropriations bills that are negotiated among both sides to fund the government beyond that date.

[Josh Holmes]

And that's what you call regular order. You've heard a lot of conversations on, like, cable TV and everywhere else where Republicans over the last four, six years have talked about regular order. And that's passing, what, 13 appropriations bill that funds every government agency, but they do it on an individual basis, the way government was intended to do. Republicans have a commitment to try to want to do things the way people elected them to do. Democrats, not so much. And so we've now gotten to a place where they want to do this clean cr. The House seems it's a very, very.

[John Ashbrook]

Thin, very thin majority. Yeah. Thomas Massie said that. He's the guy from Kentucky that is Against Trump. He said that he's gonna vote against this. So basically, House Republicans have a one vote threshold to be able to pass this, and then it goes to the Senate.

[Josh Holmes]

But why aren't Democrats involved in a cr.

[John Ashbrook]

Like this is this goes.

[Josh Holmes]

When I started in this line of work, it was the one area of agreement that you don't wanna turn the lights off in the Capitol, that if nobody was trying to do anything that was, like, particularly egregious, that you were just like, all right, we'll all agree, just like, kick this can down the road. And there's no Democrats who want to get involved.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Well, I mean, you mentioned in the beginning of this segment, Josh, like, you saw what happened to Schumer when he did what he did, almost cost him his job, and it almost cost him his job. So if you're rank and file, like, but you're not gonna put your hand up to do something good for the country, not in the environment that the Democrats find themselves in.

[John Ashbrook]

Don't you think that goes back to our discussion at the beginning that, like, your job is to do something good for the country? If you're a Democrat leader, you should just tell the left, like, I don't care what you're saying, we need to fund the government. And what I find completely outrageous is there are these Democrats in the House who represent moderate districts who are gonna be up for reelection next year who are saying they're not gonna vote to fund the government.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Okay, can I say, for no good.

[Josh Holmes]

Reason, I mean, it's just, like, completely ridiculous.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Can I say something?

[Josh Holmes]

This is.

[Unidentified Male Host]

I mean, maybe this is controversial. I don't know. And I don't want a government shutdown. And historically, Republicans especially, you know, if we're in power, we sort of get the blame for this sort of thing because of the echo chamber of mainstream media and everything like that. And, and people out there in the country who don't pay attention to the ins and outs of this sort of thing are like, who are the people in charge? They're to blame. Get that? 100%. I just think Donald Trump 2.0 in this second term is, and he always has been a master of messaging. He is incredible.

[Josh Holmes]

Now give him the microphone.

[Unidentified Male Host]

If we actually found ourselves in a situation in which the Democrats shut down the government, I, I trust Donald Trump to be able to message. I mean, look what he's done with DC Crime, for example, right? Like, he has been, you know, like a dog on a bone with, with winning the messaging war on something as controversial as that.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah, right.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Like, I think if we actually found ourselves in a situation of an actual shutdown, we could win that fight just through the bully pulpit itself.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah, dude, I totally agree. I mean, look, if I'm giving advice to all of our friends who are listening on Capitol Hill, whatever you can get through the House of Representatives, like, do that. And I trust Speaker Johnson on this. He knows what you can get through. And if there's like, look, the Thomas Masseys. Don't get me started on that situation. You're on the team or you're done. When you're a legislator, you're a team player. You're not a king. You can't just deem whatever it is that you want in a perfect world. Like, you have to actually either persuade a majority to do what you want to do or be a part of a team that can stop the worst case scenario. It's one of the. That's it. Like, those are the only choices. So don't give me like, oh, he's a true kids. He's rooted in his pr, all that. Like, you either stop the worst case scenario, persuade everybody to your point of view. And if you failure to do that, you gotta get on board. You gotta do what you do. But if they do, and they land it in the United States Senate, and Chuck Schumer, because he's afraid of losing his job, wants to shut down the government, and in turn, we hand the microphone to Donald Trump for as long as he wants it, about why your government is shut down, I'll take my chances, don't you think?

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, that's the thing, you know, DC's how President Trump solved crime is a perfect example. But he's got this train rolling. We're looking at criminals are getting arrested. It's a new day in America, folks. Like, criminals are getting arrested, illegals are getting deported. And if the Democrats want to jump up and say, hey, we're gonna put a stop to that, let Trump call him out on it.

[Scott Cooper]

Let's do it.

[Josh Holmes]

Let's do it. And if you think for a second that Trump's gonna be, like, eager to help them get out from underneath that, rather than just ratcheting down what it is that their actual objections might be. You haven't watched this show before. Yeah. Like, this is gonna be a lot more painful for Democrats than they have ever envisioned. So if I'm a Republican, figure out how to give him the strongest hand of cards and then dare them to do what it is that they have too much cowardice, whether it's talking about political violence or shutting down our government know their weakness. Their weakness is a profound lack of leadership. And once you understand that, drive it into the fucking dirt. That's the game plan as far as I can see it. All right, when we come back, we're gonna get to this interview. It is fantastic. You might learn more about this in terms of how it is that our government operations are working than anything else we've done on the ruthless Friday program. Right after this.

[Scott Cooper]

Big labor backed Kamala Harris and now it's positioning its against President Trump's innovation agenda. Railroads are using technology to boost safety, reduce inflation and improve jobs for hard working Americans. But powerful union bosses want to stop the Trump administration from making progress for American consumers. It's time for the Department of Transportation to stand up to Big labor and move America forward. Unleash innovation, lower inflation, empower rail. Visit caseforconsumers.org and be part of the movement driving America forward.

[Josh Holmes]

All right, I want to welcome to the program a very interesting guy. He's the director of the Office of Personal Management, which he's going to explain a little bit. Scott Cooper, Fascinating, not just for your role, but your whole life and everything that we'll get into. Thanks for joining the program.

[Scott Cooper]

Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.

[Josh Holmes]

Can we do just like a level set on opm?

[Scott Cooper]

You mean you guys don't know what OPM is?

[Josh Holmes]

I mean, we do.

[Scott Cooper]

I'm confident that you're doing this for other people.

[Josh Holmes]

I feel like 99.8% of our audience is gonna be like, huh?

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah. In fairness, as I've said this before, like I didn't know what it was either before I took this job. So here's the very simple way to think about it is we're responsible overall for talent in the federal government. So you all probably know this, but we started the year about 2.4 million federal employees. They all have rules around how do we hire them, how do you fire them, how do you promote them, all that stuff. So our job is basically to make sure all that hopefully goes smoothly, which.

[Josh Holmes]

Has got to be an easy assignment, right? Talent in federal government.

[Unidentified Male Host]

He's Donald Trump's scout.

[Josh Holmes]

It's not exactly like going to the five star recruits in the McDonald's All American Game, right? I mean, like, you rolled in, you got a huge bureaucracy. Obviously the efforts of Doge and everything else went into that. We're going to get into all of that. But I want to know a little bit about your background, how you Got into this. Like, where are you from?

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah, sure. I'm happy to give you a quick 30 seconds. So I grew up in Houston, so. And I still have family there. I went out west to school and stayed out there. Met my wife there. My background is I went to law school. I thought I'd be a lawyer. About halfway through, I decided not to.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah, I did the same thing.

[Scott Cooper]

Did you? Okay, well. And I come from one of those families where if you're not a lawyer or doctor or an accountant, basically you don't have a job.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Scott Cooper]

And so for the last.

[Josh Holmes]

Well. And Smug can identify that. I mean, it's just like, they still.

[Michael Duncan]

Hope I'll be a doctor someday.

[Scott Cooper]

Exactly.

[Josh Holmes]

Plus, they spelled his name with a K. And so you can understand what they're.

[Scott Cooper]

We've got, you know, we're kind of. We've got some affinity here, but. Yeah. So I'm still trying to convince my parents that I actually, you know, work for a living. Yeah. But. But then I got involved in tech. And so, you know, you know, some of the people that I've worked with, I work with guys like Mark Andreessen and Ben Horowitz for 25 years now. They had started a company, and I was lucky enough to join them back in 1999. And then we sold that company eventually to Hewlett packard. And in 2009, kind of, we started what's now Andreessen Horowitz. And it was a small, little $300 million fund when we started. We're now managing 45, $46 billion. And it's just been an amazing ride.

[Unidentified Male Host]

I love how you said small and then said 300 million.

[Scott Cooper]

Well, these days. I know. Unfortunately, these days in the venture capital world, it's changed a lot. So you're right. At the time, time 300 was actually not that small, but the industry has changed a lot.

[Josh Holmes]

But, like, through all of that, you get a good idea of efficiencies and your role in the marketplace and whatever. And so in terms of opm, let's get a vision here. You're not only in charge of the talent that is within the government, but then given a mandate at the beginning of this administration to ensure that we actually have talent rather than a bloated bureaucracy that Americans have been well acquainted with over the last. I mean, as long as I. At least as long as I've been involved in all of this. And so you got to look at that and, like, tell me what those first sort of observations are.

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah. So I think the simple Way to think about it is we're trying to kind of do two things simultaneously. One is, you're exactly right, which is we want to bring great talent into the government, right? So we want to find ways to figure out, okay, can we find the best and the brightest, particularly in areas that we know the government's behind. So technology is an obvious one, right? So, you know, we've got an enormous opportunity with AI to do some really good stuff in government, but quite frankly, we just don't have that talent. And some of that is, you know, a technical problem. Some of it is actually an age demographic problem. So you may know these numbers, but in the federal government, about 7% of our workforce is under the age of 30. And if you look broadly at the workforce, it's close to about 25%. So we are way out of whack. And it's not that only young people can do technology. But look, new ideas often take, you know, people who are willing to kind of go out and do things differently from than they've done in the past. So that's kind of thing number one, which is like, how do we get really smart people in the government and keep them there? Then thing number two, which you referenced, is, how do we improve our operational efficiency? Which means also probably there are some things where we maybe need fewer people than we did in the past, or there are ways to use technology to actually increase the efficiency of the organization. So we're trying to do both those things. So far, we've done a little bit more on the latter. So you all may know these numbers, but we started the year with about 2.4 million civilian employees. We expect to end the year closer to 2.1 million. So the President set out this big goal, which is, could we do four to one, basically? Could we basically hire one person for every four people that left government? And the good news is, like, we will meet or exceed that target.

[Josh Holmes]

Wow, that's great.

[Scott Cooper]

That's great. And I think for the first time, that's actually something very, very substantive significant that's been done. Now, the challenge that we have, and we're working with the White House on this, is how do we operationalize that, right? So what we don't want to do is just say, great, declare victory, clap our hands, and then go right back to 2.4 million, right? So now we've got to figure out what's the process by which we can manage that and again, do those things at the same time, which is hire people where they are smart and they were supporting the president's agenda and at the same time, figure out ways that we can eliminate things that just don't make sense anymore. We also have to do better performance management. So we can talk about this, but that's a real problem with government. So it's a bit of a dual mandate. And I think we've got a great plan for how to do it, but.

[Josh Holmes]

We, in other words, demonstrably prove the efficiency.

[Scott Cooper]

That's exactly right. Yeah. Right. Because it's one thing. Look, you know, it's one thing to just take out heads, and that's, you know, that's a good start, obviously. But what you really need is we've got to change the entire incentive system in government. So if you look at government historically, things only go one way, which is the budget only ever goes up, which means headcount only ever goes up. And then the whole power and incentive structure derives from that. Right. So if you're a senior manager in government, what you want is you want the most amount of people and you want the biggest budget. Right.

[Josh Holmes]

And, you know, like, it becomes a land grab, right?

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah. And you laugh, which is true. But at the same time, quite frankly, it's an incentive problem. Right. We've created that incentive. And so what we're trying to do is say, you know what? The incentive should not be that the incentive should be, you're a steward of taxpayer dollars. What are you doing every day to increase the efficiency of your organization, and then let's reward that behavior. So I'd much rather pay, you know, a lot more money and promote somebody who actually has a smaller organization because they can deliver 10x what someone else can see.

[Josh Holmes]

ROI.

[Scott Cooper]

That's exactly.

[Josh Holmes]

I mean, that's what you should be measuring.

[Scott Cooper]

That's what we're trying to figure out.

[Josh Holmes]

Based on how big. Yeah.

[Scott Cooper]

And everyone. And again, as you can imagine, look, everyone on the other side says, look, this is not private industry. Right. This is crazy. This is some venture capital guy coming from the private sector doing this. But it's just basic common sense, Right. I'm not saying the objective is to maximize profit. We're not trying to maximize profit. But the objective is, look, every time we spend a dollar, that's someone else's dollar. It's yours and mine and everyone else's. Scott, are we spending it in a way that makes sense? And if we're not, then let's actually ask that question and do something differently. So it's pretty much common sense, but it's just the whole incentive structure has to change because every other incentive is just keep growing every year and never actually, you know, take something off the plate that we've been doing for 20 years, even if it doesn't make sense.

[Josh Holmes]

Great point. Smug.

[Michael Duncan]

So when I get interviews, this is a very, this is a big get for folks. I like to reach out to a lot of smart people and see what insight they could offer. What's a good question to ask you? And the first thing I heard from a very smart individual is he's by far the sharpest and most competent person ever in that job. Which is a huge compliment.

[Josh Holmes]

Thank you.

[Michael Duncan]

And it's a tough question to ask how much change in how the government hires and fires his agency actually possible now that you're there? Because this is a huge problem, the difference between private sector and government. And like you just described the incentive things. But how much do you think is actually possible?

[Scott Cooper]

So let me give you a couple of answers to that. So I think one side of the equation is definitely easier than the other, which is I think the hiring side is easier than the firing side. Just to be totally transparent. Right.

[Josh Holmes]

So well acquainted.

[Scott Cooper]

Right the way. So again, you all know this, but let me just give you the rundown. So for your listeners, every year everybody gets ranked one through five in terms of their performance in the government. Five being the highest and one being the worst. Okay. If you look at the numbers, about 70% of the people get ranked a 4 or a 5. So at the very, very top of their class. And 0.3% get ranked at 1 or a 2.

[Josh Holmes]

Ah, it's a self sustaining mechanism.

[Scott Cooper]

So that's one thing which we can fix right now. And we can, and we've actually put some guidance out today to kind of more normalize that distribution. But if you think about the firing side, the problem is just that it's really hard, quite frankly to fire people. And I don't mean to be cavalier about it, but it's just, look, if people aren't performing, even if they're getting lower ranks, it takes a long time. There's an enormous amount of appeals process. You know, in the perfect world, if you could snap your fingers, you would say, look, everybody should be an at will employee, just like all of us are in our normal jobs in the private sector. And we either perform at the level that's expected or we don't.

[Josh Holmes]

So which is an amazing thing, that they've actually insulated themselves in the one job that is a taxpayer job.

[Scott Cooper]

Right.

[Josh Holmes]

We're accountable people.

[Michael Duncan]

Stewardship of taxpayer dollars. Would incentivize a desire to be more efficient than even in the private.

[Josh Holmes]

It like should be the opposite. It's wild.

[Scott Cooper]

I know. So anyways, I would say like there's things we can do at opm and we are. So we're basically going to make people have a forced distribution of how they rank people. And we are shortening like, you know, maybe your listeners know about things called PIPs, Performance Improvement Plans. Right. If people aren't working well in the government, those things can go on forever and ever and ever. So we've given some guidance that says, look, if you put some on our plan, it's a 30 day plan and then you got to evaluate them after that. But none of this kind of, you know, perpetual basically being on a plan. So we can help on some of that. I would say the hiring side, I think we can help a lot more. Right. So we've changed, we've introduced something called the merit hiring plan. And again, this will blow your mind. It blew my mind when I got there. But we hire people into jobs based on their own self assessment of their skills as opposed to actually assessing their skills. So literally you can apply to a software engineering job. And if you say I have all these skills, we don't actually give you a coding test, right. To determine if you have those skills. Now we are changing that. And so now we put out some guidance which says, okay, as part of merit hiring, you actually have to assess people with some like functional skill test to determine like whether they're qualified for the job.

[Josh Holmes]

It's like, it's like, you know, when you get the, the standard rote, what's your greatest skill? What's your greatest deficit? And you're like, well, I just try too hard. Exactly, I just try too hard. And they're like, you know what, that's a go getter.

[Scott Cooper]

Hire that guy. Hire that guy. We want that guy.

[Josh Holmes]

I want somebody like that.

[Scott Cooper]

So those are things I would say in all seriousness, like those are things I think we can affect a lot. So the short answer to that question is, look, I think we will do a much better job on performance management and that'll help. And then I think we can do an even greater job on changing the nature by how we bring in people, changing the evaluation of people. The other thing that we're doing, which I think will help a lot is we're eliminating what I would call shortcuts in the hiring process. Right. So we have a lot of, well, I wouldn't say a lot. We have almost every Job has a degree requirement or it has a minimum tenure requirement. And the reality is, look, those are just shorthands for, like, we don't know how else to evaluate you, so we're going to give you credit for having a degree. But look, the reality is, you know, if you're a young engineer, for example, you might be able to perform 10 times better than a more senior engineer in the government. But because you haven't met the tenure requirement or maybe you didn't graduate from college, we can only bring you in at the, like, most junior level of the organization, which is exactly why those people won't come to the government, basically. So things of that sort that create artificial barriers to actually get real skills in the government as opposed to saying, hey, everybody must have a bachelor's degree. Which, I mean, look, if you're. There's very few things where a bachelor's degree actually makes you any better for a job. 100%. Saying, as someone who spent a lot of money on my education, yeah, like, I'm pretty confident. Like, very little of that actually changed the nature of my career totally.

[Josh Holmes]

Let me ask you this. I've always wondered about, you know, look, I've run nothing that is anywhere in the neighborhood of what it is that you're a couple hundred people and you figure out how to manage things. And I've always found that more important than the particular degree on the wall or anything else is the culture. Whether they're a culture fit and whether somebody comes in for the right reasons and they want to accomplish something for the right purposes as a team and whatever, that's a tougher thing to do when you're doing at a grand scale of a federal government. It sounds to me like a lot of what you're talking about is kind of the slow turn.

[Scott Cooper]

I think that's right.

[Josh Holmes]

Of a boat on this thing. But that's gotta be something you're focused on.

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah, so it is. And in fact, look, we've. When I came into opm, one of the first things I did was write a blog about kind of what is the culture that we want to see here and how do we have a set of behaviors and actions that reinforce that?

[Josh Holmes]

Because it also incentivizes people, smart young people, to want to do it, which is huge.

[Michael Duncan]

Which is what we need.

[Scott Cooper]

You're exactly right. Right. Look, I totally agree with you. You're right. The way that I think you hire is you're right. Some jobs have functional skill sets that we just need to test better job. And we don't do that very well, but we will do that. And you're right. The second thing is, look, are you aligned with the mission of the organization? And again, I hate using. I hate that word because I can just hear the Democrats in my ear saying, well, that just means you want.

[Josh Holmes]

People who are ideology test, ideology test.

[Scott Cooper]

And it's not that at all. It's just like any organization, somebody actually is the CEO of that organization and they determine the objectives. And at some point in time, like, you can't like, you know, create insurrection from within an organization. Right. You don't have to agree with it and that's totally fine. But if you disagree with it to the point where you're not going to do the job around the objectives, not a good thing, then you shouldn't be in that organization. Right. That's not a loyalty test or an ideology.

[Michael Duncan]

It's wild. It has to be said that like so many, even in the private sector have become like daycares where it's like, okay, we're actually here to get something done fast.

[Scott Cooper]

Well, you got one political party.

[Josh Holmes]

You don't have to say this. I will. You got one political party that has designed an entire federal government to adhere to that right. To become a political base where they want everybody within the ideological confines that they have. And anytime a Republican comes in and is like, hey, maybe we should just try to do the job the president said that we should do, they're like, well, we're all careers here. What are you gonna do about it?

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Holmes]

You know, and that is the modern day bureaucracy.

[Scott Cooper]

I think that's right.

[Josh Holmes]

Which folks like you have tried to figure out.

[Scott Cooper]

I think that's right. I mean, look, the reality is. You're exactly right. Which is, look, these careers will all outlast people like me. Right?

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Scott Cooper]

There's always this little bit of tension is. And this is, quite frankly, what's exciting to me about the job. And what I really like is, can I find the people in the organization who actually do want to embrace change and align them, you know, with our goals and get them to kind of achieve stuff, create something. Right.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah. Get a different incentive structure.

[Scott Cooper]

Exactly right. Look, it's no different from any other organization. Like, you can only, you know, a leader is only as good as their ability to kind of tell a story and get people to follow them in that journey. Right. And so this is on a bigger scale, but we got to do the same things. We got to tell people the compelling reason about why we're doing what we're doing why we think these policies are important, and then, you know, we have to actually go execute on them. But, you know, you're totally right, which is none of these things are ideological tests or, you know, kind of loyalty tests. They're just like plain common sense.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Can I go back to something real quick? You were talking earlier about incentivizing people in leadership roles in some of these places to find efficiencies, right? Like not, not to be like, you know, we got a surplus, we got to spend the surplus so we get the budget to go up the next year, right? Like brass tacks, like, how do you, how do you incentivize something like that in a government organization? Is it, is it like, you know, you get 10% of what you save back as a bonus? Like what, what's the actual structure that, how we get people who are some of those careers who might be incentivized in that way to be like, well, something's going to happen for me, my career, if I find an efficiency here for this largesse bureaucracy, like, what does that look like?

[Scott Cooper]

So I think there's a couple ways to do it. One is just at the most basic level, when you set objectives for people, you have to create efficiency as an objective, right? And so like we've done that inside of opm. So if you look again at our cultural values, one of the things we say is OPM stands for other people's money, Right. And again, I'm trying to kind of get people focus on this idea that, you know, look, these are not our dollars we're spending, right?

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Scott Cooper]

So number one is like at literally at the micro level of what are your objectives as, you know, employees, employee number 5,000 in the government for this year? Well, one of them is like, you need to demonstrate that you're constantly thinking about what can you do to increase the relative efficiency of your organization. So that's thing number one. Two is exactly what you mentioned. We are doing something in government. We call it gain sharing is how they call it. But the basic idea, we're running a program right now in OPM where we've told people, if you identify new opportunities, we'll give you up to, I think we said 5% or 10% at a cap of like $10,000. And like somebody came to us the other day with a program where we had a contract for more than a half a million dollars that was just a total waste. No one was using it. And they're like, this is great. And we're like, great. We literally Handed the person a $10,000.

[Unidentified Male Host]

That's awesome.

[Michael Duncan]

That is awesome.

[Josh Holmes]

And you save 490.

[Scott Cooper]

Exactly. I sent an email out on this morning and I was like, that's great.

[Michael Duncan]

So as a most optimistic thing I've.

[Scott Cooper]

Heard in the past, as people who.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Are very cynical about government.

[Scott Cooper]

I hear you, that is amazing. But you'd be amazed. Look, I have a very simple view of life, which is organizations are just people, right? And people respond to incentives. It's very simple. So like, what behavior do you want then? Like, let's design the incentive structure around that. Now, in fairness, and I've heard this from many people and I think it's true. Look, not everybody in government is 100% financially motivated. Right. Which I get. Right. And look, a lot of them, obviously they self selected right out of maybe a more lucrative financial career. And so, but there's other ways to people like recognition. So it doesn't, doesn't necessarily have to be money, but people like to get awards or they like to be recognized at an all hands meeting or stuff like that. But you got to make sure that the incentives you put out there, you have a reward system, whether that's cash or whether it's some other.

[Josh Holmes]

It's understanding the culture and what motivates different people, which is an extraordinary thing because it's always been this faceless bureaucracy. Bureaucracy that nobody's even thought to try to figure out how to incentivize for efficiency.

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah, we do this thing. I'll give you a little small inside baseball. So we're about to go to a new fiscal year, right? So September 30th is the end of the government fiscal year. So our CFO team said, okay, we're going to do this. We do this thing every year called a sweep, which is they go to all the departments and they say, okay, how much money have you spent against your budget? And they aggregate it all up. And then what I've been told in the past is then there's this mad rush, right, of every organization's like, oh my gosh, I got to spend that money in the next two weeks. So instead what I said is, this year what we're going to do is we're going to do a sweep and then I'm going to get the money and I'm going to either figure out, do we just give it all back to treasury because we didn't spend it, or are there certain areas that might enhance efficiency that we ought to go spend a little bit more money on if we can build some Cool AI tool, for example, and use some inappropriate dollars from this year to do that. But it was just a totally different story. Everyone else's incentive is better rush out right now and spend that money. Otherwise they worry that it disappears. And now they're budget for next year.

[Unidentified Male Host]

If you don't spend that money, Democrats are going to be so mad.

[Josh Holmes]

Oh my God.

[Michael Duncan]

We should, honestly, we should get word out about that bounty system where it's like, can you discover a large inefficiency?

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yes, here's a check.

[Michael Duncan]

I just see an image in my mind of these career bureaucrats turning into like Grover Norquist overnight. Like, I didn't know. I'm a fiscal conservative.

[Scott Cooper]

Who knew?

[Josh Holmes]

I mean, look, exactly. I think you talked about this like last week, but there are a number of things that you have found that, you know, anybody with sort of a. I would say two eyes and two ears would look at and say, well, that doesn't make sense. Like give us a, give us a little highlight.

[Michael Duncan]

The worst scary stories.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah. Like, what's the stuff? Give us a little flavor.

[Scott Cooper]

So I'll give you, I'll give you one that's small dollars, but I think is meaningful. So there's something called the Charitable Combined Federal Campaign. CFC is what it stands for. This was a program started in 1961 by Kennedy and then re upped in 1960. And the idea was we hire people and then we hire contractors. And they go around every year. Actually the season is just about to start now. And they ask federal employees, do you want to make donations to charities? And we'll basically take it out of your paycheck, basically. Okay, so great, great concept. Right. Which, look, I'm a huge charity guy. I was on the board of St. Jude before I, you know, was forced to step down.

[Josh Holmes]

So hold on, I want to get. Conceptually you hire somebody with a contract that goes back to your employees to then solicit their dollars.

[Scott Cooper]

Exactly. They come in and they go to every department, they put up posters and they send out emails. They basically do a promotional campaign.

[Josh Holmes]

Sure.

[Scott Cooper]

Okay, great idea. In the pre1981 era, where we didn't have the thing called the Internet. Right. Where you could actually go online and make a donation. Hilarious. Right? So again, it made a lot of sense to do these aggregations. And at one peak, it raised about $290 million on an annual basis.

[Michael Duncan]

Okay.

[Scott Cooper]

Literally like 30 years ago. Since then, basically, it's just been on a steady march down. So last year we did the program. This was before I Got there, we raised about $68 million. Okay, so again, across 2.4 million people, I don't want to, you know, sneeze at $68 million, but it's a pretty small number, right? It cost us over $22 million to raise. Okay? Now that means 33 cents of every dollar that those employees gave did not make it to the charity that they wanted it to go.

[Josh Holmes]

It went to the person put up.

[Scott Cooper]

The guy who's putting up the posters, right? Yes, exactly. Now, and I gotta tell you, like, a burn rate, small dollars, right? And so this is the refrain I get from everybody on this stuff is, okay, whatever. You save $22 million, big whoopee. Right? And I was like, look, the answer to every problem in government is every amount of savings is too small, so let's not bother, right?

[Unidentified Male Host]

It's about the message it sends.

[Scott Cooper]

That's exactly right. It's. You know, I wrote about Teardrop in the Ocean. That's right. I wrote about this in one of my blogs. You know, I worked for Ben Horowitz and Mark Andreessen for a long time. And Andy Grove was one of Ben's, like, favorite managers of the world. He was. You know, he ran intel, and when intel was in trouble, he literally, like, stopped having the cleaners empty the garbage cans every day. He only had them come once a week. And it probably saved, like, $5 or something. But it was the same idea, which is like, look, I want people to realize, like, every dollar counts around here. And so when we're struggling as a company, like, we're going to cut back on the cleaning crew, basically. And so it's the same thing, like, $22 million here, $22 million there. It's. It's less about the actual dollars. It's more about, do we change the culture and say, this is not our money? And if we're not spending it in a way that makes sense, like, why are we doing this? It's just kind of silly.

[Josh Holmes]

How many letters do you get from Democrats about that?

[Scott Cooper]

So.

[Michael Duncan]

Great answer.

[Scott Cooper]

Nobody listens to this podcast, right? Well, I mean, my team member who runs our legislative affairs, literally, I put this blog out on Thursday, and one of the first incoming we got was somebody on the Hill saying, Where did that 22 million come from? That can't possibly be true or something. And I was like, you know, we'll handle them. We'll respond to them in the appropriate way. But it's like, every single idea. Everybody loves the idea of saving money in abstract, and then Every time you get down to, okay, how are we actually going to save the money? There's always some constituency that's out.

[Josh Holmes]

Oh, it's the Normandy invasion. Every time you cut five bucks, I mean, it's, it's incredible.

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah. So we're going to. Look, this is just going to be a series of like, it's going to be small, you know, steps here and there.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Scott Cooper]

And then the point is, look, if we can actually change the culture, then at some point you get a big snowball, which is, okay. Everyone starts to think every day, how am I spending money? Is it going to the best uses? But look, we're starting from literally, like, we're literally crawling, basically. Like we've had whatever 200 plus years of basically just everything always going in one direction. And look, you know, one of the things that I credit, you know, Elon and the whole Doge team was, is, you know, you were trying to turn around this like $7 trillion oil tanker basically, and you needed some like, shock to the system. And look, there's lots of Monday morning quarterbacking about, you know, could they have done things differently? And of course, like, there's always things people can do differently and better, but you can't. You have to like actually have some shock and awe to make a change of the magnitude that he and the team was trying to make. Yeah. So, I mean, I give them a.

[Michael Duncan]

Lot of credit right along those lines. So it's clear you see the gravity and the size of the behemoth, of the bureaucracy that you're dealing with. And you know, theoretically speaking, you have four years to do it. What would you try to get accomplished if you had 12?

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah, so 12. I love that question. So here's the problem. I'm going to give you a very depressing answer, which is, I don't think it matters what my tenure is. It matters that we have congressional people in the House who change over every two years and senators who change over over six years. Because this is again, like this CFC one's a great example. Here's another one. Like, you guys probably know this, we manage the retirement services and there is this mine in Boyers, Pennsylvania where we have this very paper based product. And again, I can understand when you look at it how we got here. Right. It's not crazy, but clearly in like.

[Josh Holmes]

2025, this is the mine. If you recall this surface during Doge, where they actually physically file paperwork for.

[Scott Cooper]

Everyone who is 400 million paper records that sit in like 26,000 file cabinets underground. And Again, like that. It's mind boggling, but it's not mind boggling when you think about it. Okay, look, whatever. 40, 50 years ago, when they were starting this thing, of course, like everything was paid for.

[Josh Holmes]

That's the way you did it.

[Scott Cooper]

But so look, everybody agrees, like, you should fix that, right? Okay. And we're doing a lot of stuff to fix it. We're going to roll out some things here shortly. But every time you do something like that, at some point in time, there is a congressperson who represents that district who's like, wait a second, this could impact my local economy, obviously, and, and at a micro level, I get it and I understand it, but that's the problem with every single thing that you try to cut money on. There is some local constituents who cares about it.

[Josh Holmes]

So he's got a letter from the Mine Filers Association.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Probably a letter from Dunder Mifflin.

[Scott Cooper]

It could be Dunder Mifflin, right? Have you guys seen the new show Paper or whatever?

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yeah, I watched an episode.

[Scott Cooper]

I've seen the episode. Yeah, I was gonna say it's not the same, but anyways, I bring it up just to say that, look, I think the answer to your question is, unfortunately, I don't know if 12 years of my role would matter if you have the same fundamental problem, which is you have congressional people who are so micro oriented in their thinking. And look, I mean, there's probably, you know, there's, you know, it's not just a one party problem. This is a, you know, system problem. Yeah, but it's really hard to get people to step back and say like, what is good for the country as opposed to like, what is good for my district. And I don't know what the answer to that is. Maybe term limits solve that problem. I have no idea. But like, I think if you really want structural change, you have to solve that problem, which is everything can't be a micro budget for my particular congressional district. It's so worse. I hate to be depressing on it, but I think that's right.

[Josh Holmes]

I think you're right. I think that's a challenge that all of us have in trying to talk to people about that, because that really is. It's been an issue forever and it continues to be an issue. But you guys are making a ton of progress. You know what the biggest piece of progress is? Guys like Scott Cooper want to do this for a living.

[Scott Cooper]

That's huge.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yeah, that's huge.

[Josh Holmes]

And that's, look, your resume notwithstanding, you're a very smart Guy who's into this for the right reasons.

[Scott Cooper]

That was a nice backhanded compliment. I'm no lawyer, that's for sure. Talk to my parents, man, but can you spell?

[Josh Holmes]

Listen, thank you so much for joining us today and giving us a little insight into all this. Stay in touch. We want to keep updated on everything you guys are doing and come back in when you can.

[Scott Cooper]

Will do. Thank you guys for having me. Appreciate it.

[Michael Duncan]

Thanks so much.

[Josh Holmes]

Thanks so much.

[John Ashbrook]

Fellas. I was very sorry to miss that conversation in person, but let me tell you, after hearing it, this guy is so smart, and we are very lucky to have somebody that is that on the ball and that important of a job most people have never even heard of.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, when I specifically heard how he was like, listen, we have a system in place that if you can find a tremendous, Like, a. Any amount of government waste, you come forward, you tell us about it, and you can get, like, a bounty, like 10,000. We'll catch you a check on the spot.

[Josh Holmes]

What an innovative idea.

[Michael Duncan]

Wow.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

Love to hear that.

[Josh Holmes]

I think the biggest part, and this is where I've been so gratified in the Trump 2.0 universe, is that you have people like Scott Cooper that are. I mean, you want to talk about a guy who has no business wanting to do this except for love of country.

[Scott Cooper]

Right.

[Josh Holmes]

I mean, this dude was. He had it made in the shade.

[Scott Cooper]

Right.

[Unidentified Male Host]

You know, I'm working with Mark and Dries, and we're like, you know, we have billions of dollars in assets, you know, investing in these companies. And you know what? I'm gonna. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna manage a million government bureaucrats.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah. And get nothing but hate mail, you know, Nothing but hate mail.

[Unidentified Male Host]

That is. That is. That is true love of country, dude.

[Scott Cooper]

Yeah.

[Josh Holmes]

Oh, it totally is. But. But you see it pop up. Yeah. Like, from the secretary level on down.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yeah. Dude, it's incredible.

[Josh Holmes]

It's super. It's super incredible.

[Scott Cooper]

All right.

[Josh Holmes]

You guys want a little bit of variety?

[Michael Duncan]

Always.

[Josh Holmes]

This one caught our eye from the New York Post. IMAX boss parties so hard that his ex wife can't get a $4.5 million life insurance policy on him. Lawsuit claims.

[Michael Duncan]

Can I get graphic five? There it is.

[Josh Holmes]

Wow.

[Scott Cooper]

So this.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, I saw this, and I was like, okay, here's. Here's my thinking is, like, the ex wife's mad I can't take a policy out on him. She's like, I want this guy to croak. Why can't he just Give me some money. Like, this is what we're talking about. Also, clearly he was dealing with a tough situation. From what I've seen here, I think he must have been in a tough situation. This wife's trying to like, run him down, shake him down for even more money.

[Josh Holmes]

Couldn't have been a pretty divorce, by the way, if she's like trying to post nuptial life insurance. Him.

[Unidentified Male Host]

Yeah, like, what is, what is. What is life insurance on an ex? Like, it's like Key Man. It's like Key man insurance.

[Josh Holmes]

I get. Well, it's kind of like.

[Unidentified Male Host]

It feels like the beginning of a dateline episode.

[Josh Holmes]

Oh, totally. It's either like a death bet or like his terms of that divorce were so bad that, like, she can't financially hack it without. Jeez. Understanding where the driver of the income is.

[Michael Duncan]

So just to get the details in here, it says Richard Gelfand, who has helmed the larger than life 1.57 billion movie theater company, that's IMAX, since 2009, has used cocaine and engaged in excessive drinking. But at least two other insurance companies also refused to move forward with the policy for the seven year old. It's like, listen, I mean, the guy, it seems like, is single, ready to mingle. Leave the guy alone. You're just trying to be like, how can I shake him down for even more money?

[Josh Holmes]

We can't insure him because he's rad. There should be some kind of a special clause. I mean, this guy. You want to talk about, can we kill me?

[Michael Duncan]

Can we get a photo of him up again, 5B. Like, those are allegations against him. He seems like a. Like a nice.

[Josh Holmes]

Look at him.

[Michael Duncan]

He seems like an honest, hard working dude.

[John Ashbrook]

Yeah.

[Josh Holmes]

And when you see.

[Michael Duncan]

Trying to squeeze him even more.

[John Ashbrook]

This guy's hitting all you can eat wings every week, Wednesday night.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah. But when you say Key man, he thought of a different kind of application for all Allegedly.

[Michael Duncan]

Allegedly. Amazing take.

[Josh Holmes]

Yeah, he was thinking about Key man.

[Scott Cooper]

You know?

[Unidentified Male Host]

You know it's a hot take when Smug is doing the allegedly.

[Michael Duncan]

I'm the one dropping the allegedly.

[Josh Holmes]

Well, all I know is what the insurance companies.

[Unidentified Male Host]

That's right.

[Josh Holmes]

And according to New York Post. Look. Yeah, it is what it is.

[Unidentified Male Host]

It is.

[Josh Holmes]

Anyway, God bless him. It sounds like that guy. If you're listening, let's hang out. You sound like a lot of fun. Maybe we could give a. I want.

[Michael Duncan]

To see an IMAX movie with that guy.

[Josh Holmes]

Totally. All right, so thanks for tuning in and thanks for all of you for grappling with what we've all been grappling with over the last week, which has been tough times. But it's time to figure out where we go from here, which is a little bit of what we were talking about today. We're going to continue with that promise. We're going to have more yucks because look, that's what we do here and we're going to continue to do that. When you like and subscribe to the Ruthless variety program, you know that's what you're going to get next. So with that, fellas, I think we did it.

[Michael Duncan]

I think so. Banger of an episode. Gentlemen, thank you so much to Secretary Scott Cooper and thank you to the listener. Like Holmes said, if you have not yet go to the YouTube hit that subscribe because it's more fun and video. So until next time, minions, keep the faith, hold the line and own the libs. We'll see you Thursday. Stay ruthless.