Unmasking Media Bias: The Truth About Left Wing Violence

Summary

Ruthless Podcast Episode: Unmasking Media Bias: The Truth About Left Wing Violence
Release Date: April 15, 2025
Hosts: Josh Holmes, Comfortably Smug, Michael Duncan, and John Ashbrook

---

Overview

In this compelling episode of the Ruthless Podcast, hosts Josh Holmes, Comfortably Smug, Michael Duncan, and John Ashbrook delve deep into the pervasive issue of media bias, particularly focusing on the portrayal and justification of left-wing violence. Through incisive discussions, interviews with key figures in collegiate athletics, and expert insights on foreign funding influencing American politics, the hosts aim to uncover the underlying narratives that shape public perception and political discourse.

---

Media Bias in Covering Left-Wing Violence

The episode opens with Michael Duncan criticizing media personalities like Taylor Lorenz, whom he describes as epitomizing a generation of "morally and intellectually bankrupt Americans." He argues that such figures, despite their privileged backgrounds, fail to present balanced and fact-based information, thereby contributing to societal polarization.

Key Incident: Arson Attack on Governor Shapiro's Mansion

• Date: March 26, 2025
• Perpetrator: Cody Ballmer
• Motivation: Leftist ideology and association with the group "Riot Girls"

Michael Duncan and co-hosts discuss the violent attempt to destroy Governor Shapiro's mansion in Pennsylvania, highlighting how mainstream media outlets like NBC News and CNN misrepresented the incident. They emphasize that Ballmer's actions were driven by far-left anarchist beliefs rather than mere opposition to political figures like Joe Biden.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Duncan [12:26]: "We're living in a world where information flow is perverted to a point where it's radicalized people beyond belief."
• Brent Smith [14:07]: "This guy was a lunatic... as if you needed any more evidence that this guy was a lunatic..."

CNN's Controversial Coverage:

• Taylor Lorenz's Segment [25:09]: Lorenz appears to trivialize the gravity of Ballmer’s actions, portraying him as a "morally righteous" individual, which the hosts vehemently oppose.
• Michael Duncan [29:25]: "There's no way the United States is comfortable with assassinating a young CEO who is a father of young children because he's hot and fun."

CBS’s Misrepresentation of Mayan Culture: The hosts critique CBS News for downplaying historical child sacrifices by the Maya, suggesting a broader pattern of media outlets excusing or justifying violence under cultural or political pretenses.

Notable Quotes:

• Michael Duncan [35:41]: "CBS is out of touch, portraying child sacrifice as a culturally acceptable practice."

---

Interviews on Collegiate Athletics and NIL Reforms

A significant portion of the episode features an in-depth interview with commissioners from the SEC, Big Ten, Big 12, and ACC. The discussion centers around the challenges and necessary reforms in collegiate athletics, particularly following the Supreme Court's decision on Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) rights.

Key Topics Discussed:

• Federal Standardization of NIL: The commissioners stress the need for federal legislation to create uniform rules across all states, as currently, 34 different states have varying regulations, leading to an uneven playing field.
• Impact on Student Athletes: Emphasis on protecting the integrity and educational experience of student athletes amidst the evolving NIL landscape.
• Challenges with the Transfer Portal: Concerns about the pressure it places on athletes, potentially affecting their educational and athletic careers negatively.

Notable Quotes:

• Jim Phillips [52:15]: "We believe we're going to get there [a federal standard], despite the obstacles."
• James McCarthy [57:50]: "Student athletes deserve better than this patchwork of state laws."

The commissioners highlight the complexities introduced by NIL, including the risk of creating a "have and have not" scenario among athletes and the need for stability to prevent collegiate sports from descending into chaos.

---

Exposing Foreign Funding and Its Influence on US Politics and Education

Caitlin Sutherland from Americans for Public Trust joins the discussion to shed light on the rampant issue of foreign dark money infiltrating American elections and universities. She reveals alarming figures and strategic maneuvers by foreign entities to influence public policy and academic environments.

Key Insights:

• Ballot Issues Manipulation: Foreign nationals have funneled over $20 million into Ohio's ballot issues alone, pushing extremist policies bypassing the legislative process.
• University Funding: A staggering $60 billion has been traced to foreign sources in top-tier universities like MIT, Stanford, and Columbia, aiming to sway academic and political sentiments.
• Legislative Actions: States like Ohio, Kansas, Wyoming, Kentucky, and Indiana have enacted bans on foreign funding of ballot issues. Caitlin anticipates similar actions from other states and urges federal legislation to close existing loopholes.

Notable Quotes:

• Caitlin Sutherland [94:58]: "Foreign nationals cannot influence our elections. That's simple."
• Michael Duncan [99:12]: "Border problem extends to money flowing in from countries that actually do not like us very much."

Caitlin emphasizes the urgency of addressing these foreign influences to preserve American democratic values and the integrity of educational institutions.

---

Conclusion and Listener Engagement

As the episode progresses towards its conclusion, the hosts pose a thought-provoking question to their listeners: "How much does the media bear responsibility for self-radicalizing these crazy people into left-wing attacks that they at some point think are justified because they're not commonly condemned in the same way that all violence should be?" This inquiry encourages listeners to reflect on the role of media in shaping societal behaviors and political violence.

The hosts invite listeners to engage by submitting their thoughts and questions for future episodes, fostering a community-driven dialogue on these critical issues.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of the Ruthless Podcast offers a rigorous examination of media bias, the complexities of modern collegiate athletics, and the insidious influence of foreign funding in American politics and education. Through passionate discussions, authoritative interviews, and incisive critiques, the hosts provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of how these factors intertwine to impact societal norms and political landscapes.

---

Notable Quotes Summary:

• Michael Duncan [12:26]: "We're living in a world where information flow is perverted to a point where it's radicalized people beyond belief."
• Brent Smith [14:07]: "This guy was a lunatic... as if you needed any more evidence that this guy was a lunatic..."
• Michael Duncan [29:25]: "There's no way the United States is comfortable with assassinating a young CEO who is a father of young children because he's hot and fun."
• Jim Phillips [52:15]: "We believe we're going to get there [a federal standard], despite the obstacles."
• James McCarthy [57:50]: "Student athletes deserve better than this patchwork of state laws."
• Caitlin Sutherland [94:58]: "Foreign nationals cannot influence our elections. That's simple."
• Michael Duncan [99:12]: "Border problem extends to money flowing in from countries that actually do not like us very much."

---

Stay informed and critically engaged by tuning into the Ruthless Podcast every Thursday for more unfiltered discussions on the pressing issues of our time.

Transcript

[Michael Duncan]

I don't think that there is anybody who better defines a generation of morally and intellectually bankrupt Americans better than Taylor Lorenz embodiment of. And I don't mean that in terms of an under information, like, I don't mean it in terms of like, oh, you know, people just don't follow the news. They don't actually think critically about things. They don't have access to education, so they're just like, on iPads or whatever. It's the opposite. It's people like Taylor Lorenz who went to a Swiss boarding school, or leftist beyond the Map, who try to interact in a public way to make themselves famous and then seem like they have some sort of a handle on information and facts. We will unleash the power of American innovation.

[James McCarthy]

We will soon be on the verge.

[Michael Duncan]

Of finding the cures to cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and many other diseases.

[Brent Smith]

The cure for cancer is closer than ever.

[James McCarthy]

But the Biden pill penalty is forcing.

[Brent Smith]

Researchers to abandon breakthroughs that could save millions of lives. Only President Trump can fix it.

[James McCarthy]

He'll ignite a golden age of innovation.

[Brent Smith]

To defeat cancer once and for all.

[James McCarthy]

Tell Congress, end the Biden pill penalty. Ladies and gentlemen, your attention, please.

[Kyle Johnson]

Keep the faith, hold the line, and own the lids.

[Brent Smith]

It's time for our main event.

[Michael Duncan]

Mighty good Tuesday to you. Welcome back to the Ruthless Variety program. A lot going on around here. Listen, fellas, you'll hate to hear it, but it turns out that our corporate media, our mainstream media, quote unquote, has still not gotten a sense of where the American people are on an awful lot of things.

[Brent Smith]

You're kidding.

[Michael Duncan]

No, no. It's difficult. It's hard news to handle. We're coming off a Hack madness tournament.

[Kyle Johnson]

It's like we just had a tournament about how deranged these folks are. And they're like, not deranged enough. Not deranged enough.

[Michael Duncan]

I feel like every time we have Hack Madness, there's somebody who is upset that they weren't in a final four in Elite eight. So they make a real run. It's almost like to prove us like they belonged and to our listeners, that they should have been voted for because, like, the last week has really been something.

[Kyle Johnson]

And not to spoil it, but like, I think in our episode where we discussed the championship and how Margaret Brennan, Congratulations, Hack of the year, how we were, like, notable, you know, folks who had fallen off from being, like, dynasties or perennial contenders, and we're like, Taylor Lorenz, you know, she's like, didn't get involved. Well, that's what champions do it.

[Brent Smith]

That's what champions do. They see what Margaret Brennan accomplished this season and they're like, I have to work my ass off if I want to get there. And clearly it's what they're up to.

[Michael Duncan]

It's one thing to just totally misrepresent a Trump administration, and that's a day to day occurrence. We're sort of like accustomed to all of that, but much more pernicious. Is this like constant sort of validation of violence?

[Kyle Johnson]

Yep.

[Michael Duncan]

In, in society. We've seen it. We saw it during the Hamas protests on campus, we saw it during the George Floyd protests across the city that somehow everybody else had to sit inside with a mask. But, you know, when everybody's out burning down the cities, that that was a, it was a right. A fundamental American right. That in fact cured Covid. Did it? Apparently it was, it was the burning of police stations.

[Kyle Johnson]

Well, that's the thing is, you know, the CDC said you can't catch COVID if you're rioting. You know, that's like the one way to perfect any infection.

[Brent Smith]

But remember what the left said in the lead up to these to this year basically, is words are violence, but actual violence is not bad.

[Michael Duncan]

No, right, right. I mean, it's a little bit of a imbalance. Right on that. But, you know, I mean, hypocrisy be damned, here we are and we're going to go through a whole bunch of that. We got a great show, though.

[Kyle Johnson]

Hell of a show.

[Michael Duncan]

We're going to get not only to two really conspicuous incidents of media, just trash media stuff that we'll get to on the front end. We're also going to talk some variety. And then we, we have an interview today that is fantastic. All of you know, we're into sports. Fellas like sports. We watch sports, we used to play sports. Although, you know, I have my reservations about grown adults who have children playing competitive sports. You can play golf and you can play tennis, but, like, my view is that's it.

[Brent Smith]

Well, it's tough. I mean, it's really tough to play competitive sports the way you did when you're a kid and not injure yourself. So you're walking into the office on a Monday with an ankle brace or knee brace, and everybody's like, what happened? And you're like, oh, no, I was playing basketball all day Saturday and all day Sunday. And you're like, what did your wife say about that?

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. Well, it also kind of like dovetails with this conversation that we've had about grown adults Taking up, like, kids parks and stuff like that, or like, reserving time on baseball fields to play softball when you're 55 years old. Like, dude, give it up. Yeah, I understand. If that's what makes you tick, like, find something.

[Brent Smith]

You know, one of the legends of radio, Jim Rome, used to have great bet on softball guys.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, totally. Also, I just wanted to say Johnny and I, last weekend were able to be a part of a golf tournament that went to a good cause. We were. We were raising money for stuff, but we went down and participated with a bunch of. Of good dudes in a golf tournament that I happened to win.

[Kyle Johnson]

You took it down. You didn't tell me that.

[Michael Duncan]

Well, my team won and they were named the Murder Donkeys.

[Kyle Johnson]

Excellent.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

Excellent.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah, they won. That's terrific. They beat my team, which was called the White House Press Corps.

[Kyle Johnson]

At least the White House Press Corps took another L. Right.

[Brent Smith]

But you know what, it was close. We had the lead going into the last day and they came away with it.

[Kyle Johnson]

Good for you.

[Brent Smith]

So it was neck and neck.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. Well, he had a couple of sandbaggers from Furman University, which we hadn't met before. These guys are good dudes that graduated from Furman, like world class humans. But both of them listed handicaps that were like, you know, like 10 or so. And for those of you who aren't golf enthusiasts, you know, it's kind of an average. You golf a lot, but it's like in the average of. Of what golfers do who participate an awful lot. And both of these guys shot in, like, the low 70s consistently throughout, which leads me to believe, as somebody was opposing their team, that there was a little bit of a handicap. Sandbag.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

Involved like maybe 10 plus strokes.

[Kyle Johnson]

For sure.

[Brent Smith]

There was no sandbagging.

[Michael Duncan]

But despite all of that, the Murder Donkeys overcame it and ultimately dealt Ashbrook's team a loss. And I'm happy about it. I'm proud of that. I feel very, very good. And I'm glad that everybody else is on board with the Murder Donkeys. Listen, the NCAA commissioners are here. We had the opportunity to do something that we don't normally do, which is trot up to Capitol Hill as the commissioners of the SEC, the Big Ten ACC, and the Big 12, these are like, some of the most powerful people in all of sports, went up to Capitol Hill to advocate for nil reform. They want a federal solution for nil. Name, image and likeness. For those of you who are college sports fans, you know that this has sort of thrown a little Bit of a wrench into things in terms of what you are accustomed to seeing on the field with your teams and whatnot. That and the transfer portal and all of it. They're up talking about it. And as a sports fan, like this is something that you ought to pay attention to because they rarely do. You get people like this on Capitol Hill discussing in unison because they're competitive with each other. Right. But in unison talking about how to reform collegiate sports in a meaningful way and they need some federal help to do it. You've heard us talk to Tommy Tuberville, old ball coach.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

About a lot of that. We talked to Tom Crean, another old ball coach, about some of that. So, you know, it's an interest of ours. But for those of you who are sports fans, you're not going to want to miss that at the back end of here because it's a good interview.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah, it is. And it's such an important conversation because this is an inflection point in college sports and all of these states have different rules and they need a federal standard. And you know, Congress is not an easy place to get anything done. But they had a plan that they'll talk about later on in the show about how they think they can achieve a standard.

[Michael Duncan]

Other than smug insisting the ACC guy make some moves against unc. They should be held accountable as an NC State. You know, other than that, I thought it was a pretty productive conversation.

[Kyle Johnson]

It was. I mean, to be honest, it was just fascinating. I don't think you even need to be necessarily like a sports fan or college sports fan to get a lot out of it because it is just extremely fascinating. It's rare that you get an issue brought before a Congress from a group who isn't asking for like taxpayer money or anything. They're like, we just want to make sure we have a standard set of regulations for everyone to compete by and to protect students and make sure everything is just taken care of without like 900 different jurisdictions. Makes a lot of sense.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. They're trying to protect the integrity basically of their respective conferences and how sports goes when it starts to look a little professional. And so it's a fascinating conversation. We also have Caitlin Sutherland here from the Americans for Public Trust. She's somebody you've heard from a couple of times on the program already. We turn to her when we start looking into some of this like anti corruption stuff that's going on. Her specialty and what they've done so well is rooting out foreign funding of political apparatus on the Left hand side.

[Kyle Johnson]

We'Ve discussed this, the left wing dark money issue, specifically the international type. Elon's even started weighing in on this and becoming aware of this problem because Hans Erg Wiess, we've name checked him a million times on the show, is a Swiss national who's pouring money into left wing causes in America. It's not just George Soros. This has become like the thing for them to do is just pump money into left wing causes. Great to have someone who can fill in our audience on that.

[Michael Duncan]

Totally. And somebody who's doing something about it, which is terrific. Anyway, let's get into the main thrust of the program and that is the incredible media takes that. We've had about a couple of events that have happened here in the last week. The first one, you may have seen and read about the arsonist that took down the Governor's mansion in Pennsylvania where Governor Shapiro, Josh Shapiro, resides. Now, his name rings a bell obviously because he was on the short list for Kamala Harris as a vp and hilariously, they didn't choose him. He was probably the most talented Democrat in the country at some, you know, at least speaks to. I'm not saying that he is a moderate by any stretch of the imagination, because he's not. But he at least speaks to a center left coalition in a way that like Tim Walls does not.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah, yeah, no. And he obviously has more talent than Tim Walls, but it's amazing to me how this guy tries to present up as moderate and then if you look and see the things he does in the state of Pennsylvania, it's left, left, left, left, left. It's like how most Democrats have gone in the last decade or so.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. Well, anyway, apropos of not that his poor situation there is. It was incredible. So the Governor's mansion in Pennsylvania was attacked violently by a deranged individual who broke windows to get access to the governor's mansion and proceeded to set multiple fires that destroyed an unbelievable amount.

[Kyle Johnson]

It was serious. This was not like just, you know, oh, some room burned or small. This was very like seeing photos from this. It was a very serious fire.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, it's incredibly serious. His family, he and his family were home at the time. Which begs the question, how is it that this could ever happen? I mean, we are living in a world where there were two assassination attempts on Donald Trump's life in the last campaign. We have seen information flow be perverted in this country to a point where it's radicalized people beyond belief. And we think a huge culprit of that is this sort of traditional media that is providing a whole bunch of incentive structure for people to sort of excuse violent acts out of political concerns. You don't agree with somebody's politics, we'll treat that a little less significantly than we do. If you agree with our politics.

[Brent Smith]

Right. Essentially, that's exactly what they do.

[Michael Duncan]

And so what happened was that they arrested, ultimately made an arrest of the arsonist, a guy named Cody Ballmer, who's accused of the firebombing of Governor Shapiro's home. If you can put up graphic one, please. So this cat posted this thing on social media. It was shared from a radical leftist. What is it, girl? What is it?

[Kyle Johnson]

The name of this group is Riot Girls. That he was a part of their group, I guess on Facebook, and that that is what they are. For the folks who are just listening, it's like, what are those needle points, I guess you call them.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah, it's a cross stitch.

[Kyle Johnson]

Cross stitch.

[Brent Smith]

There's your first sign.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah, it's a Molotov that says, be the light you want to see in the world. Which is like the Molotov is essentially the universal symbol of left wing politics at this point.

[Michael Duncan]

Like anarchist left type point of views. Like the stuff that you saw on college campuses during their Hamas protests.

[James McCarthy]

Right.

[Brent Smith]

As if you needed any more evidence that this guy was a lunatic because he's starting a fire to the governor's mansion in Pennsylvania. One look at that cross stitch and one piece of information that he's a chart. He's part of something called Riot Girls, you know, that he's touched.

[Kyle Johnson]

Which is. It says it's a quote, underground feminist punk movement.

[Michael Duncan]

Okay, so that guy's getting that thing in his feed, right? So it gives you a good indication of the mental health of this individual, as if the act itself was not a sign.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Chevron's latest deep water development, Anchor is powered by innovation. This breakthrough technology helps enable us to safely produce oil and natural gas at greater pressures, setting a new industry benchmark. Anchor is pivotal in our goal to produce 300,000 barrels of oil equivalent per day by 2026 in the Gulf of America, home to some of our lowest carbon intensity producing assets. That's energy in progress. Visit chevron.com anchor to learn more.

[Michael Duncan]

Well, anyway, he had shared at a couple of points multiple left wing anti capitalist posts on his fast on his Facebook page, according to the New York Post. And his home appears to have been foreclosed on last year, according to court documents, Ballmer appears to have expressed far left beliefs on social media in recent years and attacked both Trump and Joe Biden. So this, this isn't like some sort of partisan leftist, this is like anarchist left stuff, which is you see from like the riot girls or whatever.

[Kyle Johnson]

But also it's like increasingly like this is like AOC's politics, you know, like the whole, like Joe Biden isn't left enough. And as you're seeing here, they're saying Shapiro's not left enough. Like they've kind of, the left has kind of built this problem of their own of where they have radicalized and encouraged further and further left wing views that this is what happens.

[Michael Duncan]

Well, and recall, I mean, there are two primary reasons why Governor Shapiro was not given the nod in addition to what Democrats say, where they say like, oh, she just didn't jive with them, like nonsense. The two primary issues that, that were obvious to anybody who is watching is at the time, there is a huge constituency within the Democratic Party that didn't like the Jewish perspective, particularly as it pertained to Hamas. And there is a constituency within the Democratic Party that is large. And they don't want to admit it, but it's large, that just doesn't appreciate that. The second piece is that this is somebody who actually thinks at some level that a capitalist market based economy is at least good for him to tax, which, you know, but it's the system that we have here. And he hasn't wholesale rejected the idea of a market based economy which, you know, for business owners and whatnot in Pennsylvania is giving people at least some comfort that he's not trying to like socialize the entire free market of Pennsylvania, which again, not good enough for the far left.

[Brent Smith]

Brent, to your earlier point about how the mainstream media sort of encourages this or entertains it on your first point about anti Semitic movement inside the Democratic Party, remember the code that they used to use against Shapiro in the mainstream press is, oh, Kamala will have a Michigan problem. She won't be able to get all the votes she needs in Michigan. And why were they saying that? Because a bunch of.

[Michael Duncan]

Because of Dearborn, Michigan.

[Brent Smith]

Exactly. And so they were talking around it to try to protect this left wing base. So Democrats.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, it became a tactical discussion. Like imagine you're having a national. We covered this at to like all lengths during the course of the campaign. But it was amazing how the media didn't cover this is the fact that there was a huge constituent base constituency that Joe Biden had a problem with before they made the switch that had everything to do like being pro Hamas, which is a wild. I mean, they're literally in a terror organization that's been designated as such by the American government. But there was a pro Hamas constituency that showed up in all these college campuses across the country, and we saw him demonstrated, whatever. And the Democrats thought that that was so significant that it was the lead contributor to why it was that Joe Biden's poll numbers were lagging. It wasn't the fact that he couldn't put two sentences together.

[Kyle Johnson]

They were fine with that. They knew that that's the base.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. It wasn't that he couldn't show up before 9am or after 5. It wasn't that he couldn't do more than two events a year or a day. It was why, like, the progressive left was reluctant to support him was this very issue. And so every time it came up. You're exactly right. Smashley had said, well, there's a Michigan problem with Josh Shapiro. Michigan problem means we have a huge constituency within the Democratic Party, predominantly in places like Dearborn, Michigan, that are just anti Semitic.

[James McCarthy]

Right.

[Brent Smith]

The media talks about them like it's seniors in Florida or soccer moms or something like that. And what does that lead to? I mean, we've got a whole host of clips from the media going nuts on this stuff.

[Michael Duncan]

Like, it's just a demo to be dealt with. I mean, imagine the inverse of this, like 10 or 12. And they try to do this to Donald Trump over the last eight years, too. But it's like the way media describes, like, white supremacists as if it's part of a coalition that Republicans have ever courted. Right? Like, of course not. Of course not. The difference is this is the same thing off the other side, but they treat it as though it's like a. Well, it's a coalition that you need to build.

[Brent Smith]

Right. You know what I mean? Exactly.

[Michael Duncan]

It's like, no, we understand that they actually want wish death and associate themselves with a movement that thinks the existence of Jewish people in the Israeli state is a problem.

[Brent Smith]

They're just NASCAR dads.

[Michael Duncan]

No, I mean, it's true, it's true, but that's the way this was talked about. Anyway, all of this is a precursor to where we're set with this nonsensical idiot taking this incredibly ridiculous action of lighting the governor's house on fire. Also, how does NBC News cover it? Clip one, please.

[James McCarthy]

Ballmer faces charges of attempted murder, terrorism.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Aggravated arson and aggravated assault, according to court documents.

[Michael Duncan]

Past social media posts from bomber showing him critical of the Biden administration writing in one post, Biden supporters shouldn't exist.

[Brent Smith]

Mm, There it is.

[Kyle Johnson]

Where do they. And this is the thing that they do, these bastards, they're trying to infer that. They're trying to make the audience think, oh, wait, he was just anti Biden, which must mean he's a Trump guy.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, it's by omission.

[Kyle Johnson]

And the thing is that they went through those. So this is very important. They went through the social media posts of this crazy guy. And the takeaway that they want the public to see is he was anti Joe Biden. However, that image that we showed you earlier of like the Molotov and how it belonged to this radical feminist group, guess who also independently verified that it was NBC News. So they know. They know that this guy was a left wing nutjob, but they present it to the nightly news, to their audience as he was anti Joe Biden. Which wants you to think, oh, it's.

[Michael Duncan]

A right wing Yonetech. No, in fact, it's not the case. Wolf, do we have any other graphics or anything else about this guy stuff? All right, well, I mean, look, it goes, it goes on like he's a certifiable psychopath, clearly. I mean, this is somebody who is a crazy person. His politics are basically just an anarchist. But he has associated himself with left wing stuff which has come at the Biden administration from a leftist position. And here you go, NBC News. Well, it's, it's inferring by omission that somehow this is a Trump supporter. Right?

[Brent Smith]

I mean, great job, guys.

[Michael Duncan]

Come on. Listen, it's not to be outdone. In our next segment, you're not going to believe what we have have seen here. It was on CNN by one of the favorites here in the ruthless variety program, Taylor Loren's outright glorifying left wing violence in a way that is like, jarring. I mean, really jarring. We're gonna get to it right after this. Hardworking Americans know when it's time to roll up our sleeves and get the job done.

[Brent Smith]

Now is the time to unleash our.

[Michael Duncan]

Nation'S energy, to create jobs, secure our future, and make life better, more affordable, and full of opportunity for all Americans. That's the power of America's oil and natural gas. Learn [e-mail] paid for by the American Petroleum Institute. Okay, so we're talking media bias and we're talking about the way that the left not just out of political shading and a presentation, as we've seen just horribly over the last. In none of this they learn zero lessons. I mean, the politics be damned. The larger concern that we have here in the ruthless variety program is the piece, the violent piece that they just subtly shade into justification. We covered that a little bit in segment one, but wait until you see what we've got here. There was a CNN clip, misinformation, which in and of itself, like, think about that show. Misinformation. Do you think that that's about like Covid masks? Do you have any Right?

[Kyle Johnson]

I mean, it's about the experts who signed, you know, a letter saying that Hunter Biden's laptop is Russian disinformation.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. Do you think that's what they call.

[Kyle Johnson]

They holding them accountable?

[Brent Smith]

No, it tells me that's not what it's about.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, they're going to bring noted experts on disinfo and not in the way that you think. People like Taylor Lorenz. This show is Hosted by Donny O'Sullivan. I don't know him from the man on the moon, but my understanding is that this is. Well, he's not somebody who's on our team anyway. And wait till you see this clip. Clip two, please.

[Taylor Lorenz]

These millionaire media pundits on TV clutching their pearls about someone stanning a murderer.

[Michael Duncan]

When this is, this is the United States of America.

[Taylor Lorenz]

As if we don't lionize criminals, as if we don't have, you know, we don't stand murderers of all sorts and we give them Netflix shows. So you're going to see women especially.

[Michael Duncan]

That feel like, oh my God.

[Kyle Johnson]

Right?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Like, here's this man who, who's revolutionary, who's famous, who's handsome, who's young, who's smart. He's a person that seems this, like this morally good man, which is hard to find.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, I just realized women will literally date an assassin before they swipe right on me. That's for real.

[Kyle Johnson]

And they're talk so funny for contest. They're talking about Luigi the murderer.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Kyle Johnson]

So this is, I mean, it's mind blowing to see. This is on cnn, folks. This is on cnn. They're having a fun little conversation where Taylor Lorenz is like, so you've got this like handsome, intelligent. What did she describe him as? Like, morally righteous individual. We're talking about Luigi, the guy who murders people in broad daylight.

[Brent Smith]

So this is the first time I've seen this clip. And the other thing that caught my attention was how she led into it by saying, this is the United States of America. We talk about criminals as if that's good. And it's just like, are you Kidding me, lady.

[Kyle Johnson]

This.

[Brent Smith]

He murdered a guy in cold blood. The guy was from Iowa. Maybe you don't like his company, but he shot the guy in the back.

[Michael Duncan]

We had small kids. Small children.

[Brent Smith]

It's the most fucking cowardly thing that anybody has done on national television in a very, very long time. And she's saying that he's a hero. It's outrageous, dude.

[Kyle Johnson]

It's so insane. And also hypocritical. I mean, you can talk about how she's like these millionaire media pundits, folks. Tyler Lorenz attended a 60,000 a year Swiss boarding school. Like, when she's trying to talk about, like, the rich in this country, it's time to hold them accountable. I agree. Her number one. But to give airtime to someone to be like, here's the thing. And for her to be the expert, that's brought on to the show. Misinfonation, right? And her opinion is like, in America, we give shows to serial killers on Netflix. It's like, you may have missed the memo. The purpose of the show isn't glorifying them. It's to be like this crazy serial killer. Look at, like, you think this. If you watch the Sign of the Lands, you're like, wow, serial killers are glorious. You really, you know, there's a lot of issues for you right there at that point.

[Michael Duncan]

True crime isn't about identifying with the mass murderer.

[Kyle Johnson]

You're not supposed to listen to a true crime podcast and be like, wow, this is cool. I like this guy.

[Michael Duncan]

It's such a dude.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It's such a good point.

[Michael Duncan]

It's like, you miss the whole point of true crime genre. It's like everyone who's listening is thinking to themselves, like, could I miss the telltale signs of a psychopath, right? Like, could this kind of thing happen in my society? Like, I can't possibly identify with such a mania. She's like, no, that's who we are. We love them. Yeah, we love the people who kill all of these people. I don't think that there is anybody. Let's get to CNN in a second. I don't think that there is anybody who better defines a generation of morally and intellectually bankrupt Americans better than Taylor Lorenz embodiment of it. And I don't mean that in terms of an under information. Like, I don't mean it in terms of like, oh, you know, people just don't follow the news. They don't actually think critically about things. They don't have access to education. So they're just like, on iPads or whatever. It's the opposite. It's people like Taylor Lorenz, who went to a Swiss boarding school, or Leftist beyond the Map, who try to interact in a public way to make themselves famous and then seem like they have some sort of a handle on information and facts in society. And then they go out and say shit like that. And the idea that the United States at any point is comfortable with assassinating a young CEO as a father of young children in broad daylight because the guy's. He's hot and he is fun. And then she goes on to say that he's, you know, essentially morally good.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah, she said, you know, morally righteous guy.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, just the whole idea behind it, I think is in and of itself this pervasive piece of new media culture that we gotta get a handle on. Because if you took our first story, that's a cat who is insane.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

Yep.

[Michael Duncan]

Clearly had mental health issues or he wouldn't do like that. But also struggling in life, probably like disconnected from a larger society and was interacting with people who provide credibility for insanity. This is someone who has worked at the New York Times, the Washington Post recently left the Washington Post because they thought they had larger economic opportunities, doing their own thing and distributing all that amongst the, this poison amongst the American people. And then showing up as a guest to speak with authority about how the American people view an assassin of a father of young children. I mean, this is. How do you give air to shit like this?

[Brent Smith]

Well, I think it shows you everything that you were just talking about. I think it also shows, shows you the disconnect between the elites in this country and regular people out there in the Midwest who are trying to make a living. Even if you're a Democrat in the Midwest, even if you voted for Joe Biden, even if you're like, ah, I kind of like what Bernie Sanders thinks. Under no circumstances are you like, yeah, it was a good idea that that guy shot the guy in the back. No circumstances. Somebody like Taylor Lorenz is so rich and so out of touch with normal people that she thinks everybody is just someone to be manipulated. We just do a Netflix show. We manipulate them. We get them the way we want them to vote for Democrats in the most liberal thing available. I'm telling you that normal people listen to that and they're like, turn it off.

[Kyle Johnson]

Here's the thing is, yet I say yet in the sense of. I think there's a huge reason why we had the first story lead into this story, which is like, you see this left wing nut job go and try to burn down the house where Shapiro and his family are. You see right there, Taylor Lorenz being like, this guy who killed a CEO is morally good. It's all kind. And that the media specifically in that first story didn't identify, oh, this guy's a left wing lunatic. They imply that he's a Trump supporter. They're trying to push the left wing public further and further left closer to radicalization. You see like, it's almost like cause and effect right there, front of your eyes. You see NBC News presenting this information of, wow, we don't know how this guy just decided to do this crazy attack. No idea. And then you see on CNN they're like, Taylor Lorenz, tell us why it's cool to shoot people.

[Michael Duncan]

What could that possibly accomplish but to incentivize a certifiably crazy person. Person that there is fame and glory.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

In a life that is otherwise completely devoid of it. Right. I mean, this is a guy. And Luigi grew up in a privileged background, went to school and was like, you know, at elements in his life, like relatively well adjusted, had some kind of a, what appears to be a mental health breakdown, went off the left hand side of the map and decided to murder in cold blood a father of a young family who ran a health care company of which he knows very little about other than he thinks they're evil. Right. And like, I just don't understand how giving voice to that at any level provides important context to the American people that this is news and information you can use.

[Brent Smith]

No, dude, it's such a good point. And you think about major media organizations like the Associated Press, they take it upon themselves. We're not going to call it Gulf of America. We're going to call it Gulf of Mexico. We're not going to name these certain criminals. We're going to. We're going to do it our own way. Yet when it comes to this guy, his name is in there, his cause is in there, every little detail that supports the left wing agenda is exactly what they're pushing. And I'm telling you, the media is responsible for so much more ill in our society than they would ever admit to.

[Michael Duncan]

And it just persists. It's just, it's one thing when we talk about it every day about political framing, it's another when you're talking about actual violence. Not to be outdone, third story, CBS. So on 60 Minutes, they did this thing which we found absolutely hilarious. At some level. CBS is talking about Mayan culture, Right. And they're trying to explain historically what certain things in the Mayan area and the Mayans did. And like, how are all these. Can we put up graphic too, please? We see how the issue of sacrifice exists in both cultures. It was a practice. It's not that they were violent. It was their way of connecting with celestial bodies. What they're talking about here in that quote was that they found the ruins of an altar that was used for human sacrifice, child sacrifice specifically, and children specifically. And their idea of like cultural tolerance at some level is so predominant that they have now green flagged child sacrifice because we don't understand what it was that they were trying to express.

[Kyle Johnson]

So they're kind of like bringing back the Ralph Northam playbook where they were like, well, listen, the child was provided comfort. It wasn't violent. It was just sacrificing the child after it was born. Right. This was an altar used for child sacrifice. CBS News is like, experts say it wasn't violent. Just gotta kill the kid and throw him down a pyramid. You know, normal thing.

[Michael Duncan]

They're like, here's the facts. It was an altar and they did sacrifice and it was of children. But that was a way of connecting to their larger culture and their gods and all of that kind of thing.

[Kyle Johnson]

So did they get an expert in archaeology or just like someone from Planned Parenthood to be like, you know what? Sometimes it's just child sacrifice, folks.

[Brent Smith]

It's insane. It's insane. And it shows you why CBS was over representing in this year's hack madness.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah, it's insanity.

[Michael Duncan]

But again, it goes. Just to wrap this segment up before we get into our question of the day, it's this moral relativism.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yep.

[Michael Duncan]

It's this bankruptcy of intellectual understanding, this cultural embrace that we all used to have in the United States about our value set, that you can somehow try to make the attack on Governor Shapiro's governor's mansion a partisan issue and shade by omission who is responsible for it, when you know damn well, because you're the organization that uncovered it, that this was a crazy person who was probably a left wing anarchist. If anything. It's the kind of thing that you do by putting somebody like Taylor Lorenz on the air who can justify and glorify an assassin of a father of young children. It's the kind of thing that you can do when you look at ancient cultures and you're like, yeah, they were pretty good. The child sacrifices, you had to be there. Yeah, basically you had to be there. You know, like, if you're doing that stuff consistently. It is much more pervasive and much more dangerous culturally than just simply framing a political argument in a negative way. Like this thing has gotten really off.

[Brent Smith]

The rails out of hand.

[Michael Duncan]

It has gotten. So our question of the day is how much of political violence do you think we've seen? Everything from shootings to attempted assassinations of President Trump to Tesla car attacks to all of these things that, by the way, there are far fewer incidents that were associated in years past that they made the number one terror threat, remember the Biden administration, the number one terror threat was domestic and it was right wing white men. Remember they just said that. They just straight up said that. Far fewer incidents, fewer and further between harder to connect than what it is that we're talking about in the course of six days. Right. And yet this is all just sort of information Newsy can use.

[Kyle Johnson]

Incredible.

[Michael Duncan]

So how our question of the day for all of you is how much does the media bear responsibility for self radicalizing these crazy people into left wing attacks that they at some point think are justified because they're not commonly condemned in the same way that all violence should be? Right. I mean, it's a good question.

[Brent Smith]

Great question.

[Michael Duncan]

It's a good question. When we come back, we're going to get to your comments from last episode. Who in the new media should we have on Ruthless? Remember, we're like the band. We like to party with everybody. We bring everybody in. Natalie Winters, great big hit and fellow podcaster Ted Cruz last week.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah, there's been a media episode.

[Brent Smith]

People loved it.

[Michael Duncan]

All of that coming up right after this.

[Taylor Lorenz]

You might not see it on your.

[Michael Duncan]

Receipt, but there's a hidden tax driving up the cost of everything from your car insurance to your hospital bill. It's low lawsuit abuse. Frivolous lawsuits are costing every American family over $4,000 a year.

[Taylor Lorenz]

And it's getting worse. Trial lawyers are suing Medicare, suing small.

[Michael Duncan]

Businesses, even suing President Trump, not for.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Justice, but for profit. And guess what? The billions they rake in get funneled.

[Michael Duncan]

Back to the politicians who protect their rigged system. President Trump has a plan to send stop them. His loser pays.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Reform would make the people who file.

[Michael Duncan]

Junk lawsuits pay the price, not taxpayers like you. Experts say the president's plan could save.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Us over $2 trillion. It's time to end the lawsuit abuse. It's time to make America affordable again. Go to more affordableusa.com paid for by Make America Affordable Again.

[Michael Duncan]

Okay, so our question of the day on last Thursday, after we had a big new media day of interviews that we had, by the way, check that episode out. It was pretty solid.

[Kyle Johnson]

It's a great one.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, pretty solid. But our question is like who else in the newbie, like who else on the conservative side would you like to hear Sit with the fellas and play a set? Essentially your comments, remember, you gotta like and subscribe in order for us to read them. But when you do, we read all of them and we pick a few that we think are particularly interesting. And to do that, we always start with a voice.

[James McCarthy]

Okay.

[Brent Smith]

First one comes from Bright Hawk. And bright hawk writes at 68, I'm sliding down the far side of the hill of your listener demo. But people that I hear on podcasts that I think would be good on your show are Mary Kathryn Ham. You can't have her on enough.

[Michael Duncan]

I love that.

[James McCarthy]

Yeah.

[Brent Smith]

Guy Benson, Dwayne Patterson, generalissimo, the longtime producer of the Hugh Hewitt show. Love that guy. Jim Garrity, James Lilacs, Haviv Gurr, Vic Mattis, Matt Continetti, Ed Morrissey, former congressman John Campbell, Curt Schlichter, you can't have him enough. Bethany Mandel, Selena Zito, Byron York, just to name a few. Do any of them qualify as new media? I don't know. But there you go.

[Michael Duncan]

It's so cool. You know what it's so cool about that.

[Brent Smith]

I agree with all those, by the way.

[Michael Duncan]

I totally agree. But it's also very cool in many of our listeners. You know, you try to gather information from a number of places and when you see this sort of list of people that you know, we know very well, many of whom have been on the program before, you understand how people are just self educating themselves on really smart people that produce really smart things. All good suggestions. We will get to all of them. Great stuff, Smuggles. What do we got for two?

[Kyle Johnson]

This one comes from Mel Varama. They write next interview. Mike Rowe, new listener view. Hugh Hood. Thank you so much for that. Old enough to have been laughing for the first 20 minutes. Proud of my senator Ted Cruz. The best.

[Michael Duncan]

That's awesome.

[Brent Smith]

So good.

[Michael Duncan]

Which by the way, did you see the hugest sign with Fox?

[Kyle Johnson]

Excellent.

[Brent Smith]

You know, I did not see that.

[James McCarthy]

That is awesome.

[Michael Duncan]

Just signed a deal with Fox. Very, very good for both our good friends over at Fox and for Hugh Hewitt who we think is one of the most intellectually gifted.

[Kyle Johnson]

Oh yeah, he's awesome.

[Michael Duncan]

Of any conservative. I mean this is you're talking about 10 of 10 type analysis. He's so good. Perfect fit over there. That is just an awesome deal.

[Brent Smith]

And do you guys know where he's from?

[Michael Duncan]

We're gonna do this. It's an Ohio thing you had to do.

[Brent Smith]

He happens to be from Ohio, of course.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, but he's a Browns fan.

[Brent Smith]

That's okay. We come together under certain circumstances.

[Michael Duncan]

Oh, it's really good. All right, so we got to get to some variety. Would you like to do some variety?

[Kyle Johnson]

I love it. I love it.

[Michael Duncan]

Smuggles, you picked one.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yes.

[Michael Duncan]

That I thought was particularly interested. I'd like to your framing on it, because I don't know where this is going. Yeah, go right ahead.

[Kyle Johnson]

So this story is. It says, mother arrested and held in cell for, quote, confiscating child's iPad. It says here, history teacher Vanessa Brown, 50, spent seven and a half hours in a custody cell on March 26 this year following a claim she had, quote, struck stolen two iPads, which were traced to her mother's house in Surrey. Yet it transpired that the two devices belonged to her daughters and Ms. Brown had merely confiscated them to encourage them to focus on their schoolwork, a fact Surrey police now acknowledged. She says, quote, I find it quite traumatic even talking about this now. At no point did they meeting, the officers, think to themselves, oh, this is a little bit of an overreaction for a moment. Confiscating temporarily, her iPads, popping over to her mum's to have a coffee. Just a complete overreaction. That's her take on it.

[Michael Duncan]

So this is ibc, an outfit in the UK that has apparently come across a story where a mom was arrested for taking iPads away from her children. Yep, that's legit. The way this thing went down.

[Kyle Johnson]

That is what happened.

[Brent Smith]

Some people say it might seem that that is a little too harsh by the authorities, but smug. You have been very clear that there's too much iPad involvement.

[Kyle Johnson]

So that, that kind of, you know, you get my take on this, is they should keep her locked up, lock her locked up. You give your kids iPads, what do you think's gonna happen? You know, all society has had to start dealing with the kids that you've raised via iPad. Right. Like, nowadays, you see a kid flipping out, whether it's in a restaurant, whether it's on a plane. What is the solution? Parents always attempt now, they'll either hand them an iPad, or the kid's already got an iPad, and they're like, I don't know what to do. I'm out of ideas. I tried everything. I gave the kid an iPad.

[Michael Duncan]

So you're saying. You're saying because she initially gave them iPads, not that she attempted to take them away, is a jailable offense.

[Kyle Johnson]

Here's the thing is you made the monster and now you're like, oh, wow, how could this happen to me? Lock them up. Lock them up.

[Michael Duncan]

Do you ever feel like it's almost like an SNL like 90s skit on weekend Update when we deal with these kind of things that you, like, sit back and you're like, and now for your take. And he's like, the conservative case for drowning a puppy in an airport.

[Kyle Johnson]

I mean, this is so central to so many issues that we have today. Parents have completely outsourced their responsibility for almost a generation now at this point to the iPad, where they're like, hand a kid an iPad, that'll solve the problem. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to make a kid stop flipping out. I don't know how to keep a kid occupied. The child's brain is now used to just like flashing lights and going ham. While they hold this iPad, they demand to be like fully stimulated and going crazy at all times. So like, the child's growing up thinking, the purpose of my parent is to ensure I am entertained the entire time I'm awake.

[Michael Duncan]

Do you have any problem with the fact that the cops initial reaction, all of this was on the children's side?

[Kyle Johnson]

I'm fine with that. By any means necessary. Punish iPad parents. I don't care what the offense is.

[Michael Duncan]

Lock them up.

[Kyle Johnson]

Lock them up. Make parents terrified of giving their kids iPads. And then you know what happens? All of a sudden society starts healing.

[Michael Duncan]

Oh, it's quite a take. It's quite a take. Did you know original Medicare loses billions of taxpayer dollars each year to waste fraud and abuse?

[Kyle Johnson]

In fact, improper payments to hospitals and doctors are twice as likely in original.

[Michael Duncan]

Medicare than in Medicare Advantage.

[Kyle Johnson]

Alternatively, Medicare Advantage offers seniors more benefits.

[Michael Duncan]

At lower costs, promotes better health outcomes.

[Kyle Johnson]

And saves taxpayers $144 billion over 10.

[Michael Duncan]

Years through coordinated care. It's time to protect Medicare Advantage and.

[Kyle Johnson]

Ensure seniors get the best care while.

[Michael Duncan]

Protecting your hard earned tax dollars. We wanted to lead into our conversation with the Commissioners of the SEC, the Big Ten, the Big 12, and the ACC, most powerful commissioners in all of collegiate athletics. With a little like precursor for why it is that all these people are up here. You may have read about a Tennessee quarterback lately. Guy's a star, been a huge star last year. Propelled Tennessee to the top of the national discussion. Nearly made the College Football Playoff. In fact, they did make the College Football playoff in the expanded field, they weren't at the top, but someone that they felt like they were building the team around. And the reports are that this guy was basically offered a couple of million dollar nil contract and he wanted to renegotiate after a good season. Which essentially means that collegiate athletics is a annual free agency for all of these people. Guy makes a commitment, as you will hear, the kind of dollars that are allocated for somebody just in terms of their education, their housing, their medical attention, all of those things. Hundreds of thousands of dollars by university making a commitment to a kid like this. But he has a good season, he wants to get back at it. He wants to find a different value. Not going to an outside corporate entity to see if name, image and likeness are something that can get him paid more. Which is the Supreme Court decision that has rendered this conversation relevant to collegiate athletics when they do that. What the Supreme Court was talking about essentially was ensuring that kids who sell jerseys, mm, kids who'd have like a shoe contract, kids who corporations want to put in ads, can be compensated for their name, their image and likeness. Now that has been perverted and all of these programs basically tried to figure out how to supplement anybody, any money that you could get on an open market for marketing a successful player with some kind of an income that would attract them to come to their school over somebody else's school. And you've seen a bunch of different states kind of like try to come up with their own incentives for people donating to these collectives that ultimately pay these players. It's becoming a real conundrum. Like basically, if you're a fan of most colleges and university sports, you've seen players that have been household names all of a sudden end up playing for arrival over the next year because someone paid them more. Somebody, they have this transfer portal you can get out and they can, you know, essentially get more from the school. Well, these guys are all concerned about this and they think that there is a real problem in terms of a perverting the original intent of name, image and likeness compensation and ensuring that there's a standard across their conferences where all teams are basically playing at the same competition level. You're not creating state legislation that incentivizes, you know, North Carolina over South Carolina or Florida over Alabama or vice versa. And so they took the really unprecedented action of sitting down with us for a long form conversation about all of this stuff. I found it completely fascinating, fellas.

[Brent Smith]

Me too.

[Kyle Johnson]

It's amazing.

[Michael Duncan]

Also fascinating to me that conference Chairman at this point are like Fortune 50 CEOs.

[Brent Smith]

That's right.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, in and of themselves, if the guy showed up and they were running like Apple, you wouldn't be blown.

[Brent Smith]

Away by not at all.

[Michael Duncan]

You know what I mean?

[Brent Smith]

Like, so much talent that's got a.

[Michael Duncan]

Resume that seems like they would belong. Like they can run. And it just shows you the power structure and how that's changed. These are all television contracts. They own the enforcement within collegiate athletics now in a way that the NCAA always used to do. And they were careful not to like, imply that or shade on the ncaa, but the fact that they were there, the four of them together, who inherently compete not just for titles and whatever, but actual schools to go as realignment has happened over the last few years, is a pretty. I don't know, it's a pretty incredible thing. Anyway, take a look. You don't see the fellas on Capitol Hill every day. So when we are, you got some very special guests. These guys are the specialists of special guests. The Commissioners of the 4 largest athletic conferences in college athletics. Welcome Jim Phillips to the acc. Listen, Big Ten guy. We've got some Big Ten guys. Tony Petiti, welcome. Thank you. Brett Yormark. Thank you so much.

[Jim Phillips]

Thank you.

[Michael Duncan]

Been fun to be here to chat. And Craig Sankey, sec. We see you everywhere. SEC is. It just means more.

[James McCarthy]

I take that as a win right there.

[Jim Phillips]

He's got the tagline down.

[Michael Duncan]

Well, listen, gentlemen, anytime we get the four of you in one room agreeing on something, it must be a big deal. I know you all work well together. Typically conferences you have a competitive nature, but you're all up on Capitol Hill. What's this all about?

[Tony Petiti]

Well, there's 500,000 student athletes that are depending on us now and in the future. And I think to maybe level set this a little bit. Besides the GI Bill, no other group has benefited more from scholarships and support than student athletes have. Access and affordability to higher education has meant a lot to these young men and women. And as you look at the life of a student athlete, for all of us, it's about making sure we continue to create and modernize their experiences, provide benefits for them to excel, and make sure that they have a voice relative to where we're going. Among many things that we're trying to get accomplished, one of the main things is to try to get some federal help on some legislation that will really help us sustain and excel this enterprise. That means a lot.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. And so this is all basically downstream of nil decision. You've had a Whole bunch of developments in this space where student athletes compensated for name, image and likeness. Seems like a evolving topic in the sort of infancy of this whole deal. Your job, obviously is to preside over the health and well being of not only your conferences, but your student athletes. It's changing pretty quick. And I mean, this is, this is for everybody.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

Yeah, look, I think the settlement that we hope will be approved shortly, you know, allows us to use a word that Jim just said, modernize what we're doing. You know, I think a few years ago, I'm relatively new to the space. Two years in, you know, the idea of direct revenue sharing with student athletes was probably something that wouldn't have been thought of. The nil stuff is still relatively new, as you pointed out. So all of that's happening. I think the help we need here is to allow us to take a system that we know is better for student athletes. Everybody's committed to it, and try to get some protection, to actually operate it and go across. I think one thing people have to also remember is that we do compete across. And so we need rules for everybody. And that difference has to be good for Carolina. And we show up in these national championships. The roster is how you build them, how you compete for players. Because we compete for student athletes, we compete on the field. You need some system of rules that makes sense, that's the same. And you know, states are motivated to provide competitive advantages. And that's just a whole nother problem we've been dealing with the last few years. Like we've got to get some sort of stability to actually operate something that we know is going to be better for student athletes.

[Kyle Johnson]

So I think that's the big picture idea here, is that this is such a new. I mean, it's like a new frontier of name, image, likeness for student athletes that basically you're trying to establish a universal set of rules that protect, protects all the athletes, make sure everyone's taken care of and everyone has a level playing field. Is that the general idea here?

[Jim Phillips]

Yes, I think that at the end of the day, it's stability for our schools and our student athletes and putting some parameters around what you're seeing out there today. You know, as Tony said, you know, I've been here relatively a short period of time as well, came from professional sports. The one thing about professional sports is that you have teams in every market, but they're governed by the same rules, and we don't have that right now.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, so tell me about that. I mean, a bunch of states doing different things.

[Jim Phillips]

They affect 34 different states, interpret nil differently.

[Kyle Johnson]

Wow.

[Jim Phillips]

So one of the things that we're looking for on our trip here is, you know, how do we get federal preemption of some of those state laws? So there's uniformity and standardization across the ecosystem. So there's an even playing field, if you will.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Jim Phillips]

For all of our schools, we want to compete, but we want to compete fairly.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, no, I think that's right. And one of the interesting components of this, when you mentioned 34 different states, 34 different rules, you're very clearly not governing what people can be paid and when they can be paid. You want the same set of rules that each school can operate under. Craig, isn't that. Is that sort of.

[James McCarthy]

The simple way to think about it is what do our student athletes deserve? Boil it down to the essential element of the participant. And so a young person, having just left the Final four, wants to to know at tip off, the people in the other uniform are held to the same standards that they are being held to at the current time. When you're lining up across from the line of scrimmage at a football game. Same thing. And this is what young people tell us all the time. I want to know that my competitors are held to the same standards. And if we're going to do this on a state by state basis, if you bring to the logical conclusion the notion that each state has its own rules, we don't have national championships. We essentially have high school type championships at the college level. And the ability to have a college football playoff. A Final Four College World Series is predicated on national standards. So when you start to think through the change that's happened, it's around name, image and likeness and economic activity. It's gone further into seasons of eligibility, how eligibility is defined, how long you can stay on the field, which then impacts high school entry points, it actually limits those. Since experience and expertise are valued along with maturity, an older player is seen as having an important place on a roster over an 18 or 19 year old. So to combine those together and we're seeing the erosion of opportunity. While on one hand there are new economic opportunities, those are now because of court decisions being extended. Extended to those already in the cohort already participating. And so how do those new opportunities come in? You take all of that. Our student athletes deserve better than this patchwork of state laws. They deserve better to not have than not having any real consumer protection people who are agents or presenting contracts. There's no oversight.

[Michael Duncan]

Right.

[James McCarthy]

From an educational Perspective, Okay. It's great that people can transfer. What are the outcome based issues that we're going to see down the road? Where we have seen inherent educational value around college athletics and young people. Student athletes, as they've commonly been described, are asking for something that's much more consistent. The environment. They like the benefits that have been provided by schools and the economic opportunities. But they question the fundamental equity around this being driven based on state borders.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

Thank you.

[Michael Duncan]

How do you think, you know, in your perfect world if you got federal legislation that unified all the rules across all the states, how would that impact the current system of, you know, outside donor led collectives that are helping, you know, raise money for these nil deals?

[Caitlin Sutherland]

You know, I mean, student athletes in the new model are going to have multiple abilities to earn. They'll participate in rev share and each institution will decide how much it wants to spend on what athletes, on what sports, how they want to support it. So those are local decisions. I think you'll see some consistency across schools in that area. The second thing is student athletes can pursue their own nil rights and those can come from third party deals. It can come from the fact that people are associated with the university. But at the end of the day, we've got to really understand what nil is. We've called a lot of things nil that haven't been in nil. This is really much about that. So we've got to get to the point where nil really is that where a student athlete, either locally, regionally or nationally in some cases. You know, if you've been watching the, the tournament the last few weeks, you've seen those athletes that are in those national commercials. It's not a lot of them, but there are some.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

And so they absolutely be able to pursue those rights. Where it gets really tricky is when you have related parties. And that doesn't exist in the pro model. The pro model doesn't have, you know, fans who are trying to, to get professional athletes more money. And so we've got to be respectful. These are people that support our universities. They're great supporters of everything that happens on campus. But you've got to make nil be nil. And so what we're trying to build is a way to look at deals and say, is that a fair market deal? Is that really for the student athletes nil rights, the work they're doing on behalf of a company or a business or a product, is that fair? And we need that system so that we don't end up in A system where money's flowing to student athletes and it's a way to get around the ref share and all the things we're trying, trying to build. And that gets right back to what Greg was talking about. Then competitive balance and everything else gets thrown out again. So we've just got to make nil be nil. And that's a great thing for student athletes. There's lots of opportunities. And then the last piece that people forget, they're still getting the value of the educational benefits on top of that.

[James McCarthy]

Right.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

So you get the chance to have rev share, you get the chance to earn nil based on your own performance, where you are, how good you are, how much people know you, your social media following, and you get this tremendous thing, your scholarship costs.

[Michael Duncan]

You're not giving that away.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

All of those things. Those are the three big buckets. It's pretty powerful.

[Michael Duncan]

It is.

[Tony Petiti]

And one of the things that, you know, we've just forgotten about, which needs to be mentioned, is we've had such great advancements to the experiences of our student athletes. When you talk about guaranteed scholarships and then as they conclude eligibility, a chance for them to go back to school. Right. While they're with you, medical care, dental care, eye care. Right. Sports nutrition, sports psychology equipment, unlimited meals, all of those types of things have gone from one a day meals or as a bagel, a snack or a meal, depending on when you serve it. I mean, that's where this thing started 15 or 20 years ago. And the student athletes have benefited from that, their experiences. This is the next iteration and this is that modernization of compensating student athletes. And we all saw with Judge Wilkins kind of initial reaction on Monday about feeling pretty good about the settlement piece of it. And I think for all of us, we all believe student athletes should be compensated beyond the scholarship and the benefits they get. But don't underestimate. We all have our numbers. A kid in the ACC is averaging about $277,000 worth of benefits even prior.

[Michael Duncan]

To before a nil deal.

[Kyle Johnson]

That's incredible.

[Tony Petiti]

So that's part of kind of what we feel, that this idea. Absolutely. This idea of access and affordability to higher ed, not only is it affordable and student athletes are getting access, but they're also able to now take care of themselves and their families.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah, you guys are all up here on Capitol Hill, a very notoriously difficult place to get anything done. And this is a pressing problem. And I'm just wondering what would happen if Congress isn't able to accomplish a.

[Jim Phillips]

National standard I can just say one thing, you know, again, being relatively new in this space, the common denominator on the Hill is everyone's had a great college experience. They know the benefits of collegiate athletics. They know it's at the center of the entire ecosystem. It drives everything for these institutions. So I think there's a huge appetite to try to get something done, and I'm very encouraged by it. I think from our perspective, we just have to build consensus and it's going to be give and take and it'll be a compromise, but I firmly believe we're going to get there.

[James McCarthy]

If you go back to the question of what if there isn't action, which is a potential, you know, this is six years of visits for me. I think we've educated and informed well. But there's a divide, and that's not a secret. Like, I didn't just break news. And those divides will become. Are over, you know, kind of clear and consistent. Consistent issues.

[Michael Duncan]

That's.

[James McCarthy]

I was going to ask about employment, contractual protections, kind of guarantees of benefits, which. That last one we're happy to provide. But. But let me just quickly. So what do we need? We need preemption of the state laws. Return to a national standard. Like that's a reasonable ask. The second is, to Tony's point earlier, let's define what name, image and likeness activity actually represents that's done through the proposed settlement, whether it's approved or not. At least there's a structure that's offered. And by the way, if you go to look at like the NBA and NFL with hundreds of players, there are few, relatively speaking, with meaningful national name, image and likeness deals, right? Then. Then you go to the third piece and say, well, you know, there's some skepticism about trusting athletic pro programs with providing the kind of support. Now. First of all, it's competitive, so people are incentivized to provide great nutritional support, medical care, concierge, mental wellness care, the benefits that, that Jim just spoke of. So we'll include that student athletes in high, high numbers say, I don't want to be employees. Because when you look at the benefits provided that aren't subject to taxation, for one, that would be a significant change in many of their lives who won't have this name, image and likeness benefit. So we need to be careful about kind of blanket descriptions if things don't happen. So if it just stays as it is, that means we're going to legislate at the state level. We'll have. You know, Brett said 34. It's going to be 50 different approaches eventually. And it will be a race to eliminate any oversight or regulation. How do you have national competition? How does the Big 12 in the SEC have non conference games? How do you come together for national championships? There's a consistent vision that's uniquely American. This doesn't exist anyplace else. That's why it's a bit harder for us to work through. So let's put away some of the old labels about exploitation, lack of support, people being dismissed for an injury. Those aren't the realities today. But the threat is if it's simply ungoverned and unregulated and the NCA can't do that, some of the state legislation would prevent conferences from adopting common sense oversight, then what we're left with is anything goes. And some of the behavior now would suggest that's what some campuses prefer. But the idea of mutuality that has worked really well needs to be front and center. Because simply acting independently doesn't facilitate this great American tradition that we need to protect. And that's part of our responsibility. That's part of the ask. And so the threat goes right to that tradition. Can it function in a fully unregulated marketplace, if you will? Particularly when we've seen what maybe over regulation means by a private entity, lawsuit after lawsuit, and then we've seen the frustration and the competitive interests that relate to legislation after legislation at the state level. And I hope that people hear the message that sure, we're going to have economic activity, meaning institutions agree to follow the rules. We've lost that and we need a set of national standards that can be understood, overseen and then accountability when someone steps inside the boundary line.

[Michael Duncan]

What I'm hearing from all of you, and this is an interesting, from just a fan's perspective, the great critique of the modern era of nil and transfer portals is that you get into this have and have not construct that you are talking about, Greg, and that there are some conferences in some teams obviously with larger fan bases that have more enthusiasm, more recent success, maybe a shoe store that happens to be in their backyard, those kind of things that help sort of add to one institution that I think what I'm hearing from you is without a consistent set of rules that everybody has to live under, it's going to get a lot worse.

[James McCarthy]

Well, think about the differences between pro and college sports, and I think there are many. I think we're a poor replacement for what the NBA and NFL does. It's different. But let's not reduce this to just Some full on minor league reality. Despite the labels that are provided, there is something different. You know, our campuses don't move, they're not sold. There aren't different owners. We also in my league have responsibility for 22 championships.

[Michael Duncan]

Was that a humble brag?

[James McCarthy]

The NFL has one, Major League Baseball has one sport to deal with. I think we, we all take that responsibility seriously. And within that inventory for us of 22, and it goes up into the 30s for some of my colle colleagues is embedded our Olympic development and our Olympic support program.

[Michael Duncan]

Right.

[James McCarthy]

And if the pressure is just to win in those revenue producing entities and invest all of the money around that talent acquisition, the elimination of 22 down to something else is real.

[Kyle Johnson]

That's a really good point.

[James McCarthy]

It's real. And when you alter greatly, which we're doing now, but we're trying to do it with boundaries, the economics of college sports, you alter in a very significant way the Olympic development and Olympic support program in this country. And that has even bigger implications beyond our campuses and our conversation today to the geopolitical atmosphere. These are our realities that make this an incredibly complex situation with the external pressures, our sports responsibilities, the educational expectations and the lifelong impacts that exist when you move a young person from adolescence to adulthood on a college campus through college athletics.

[Tony Petiti]

Yeah, Jim, we all see what the CFP does. We just came off the NCAA Basketball championship. Congratulations to Greg down there on Florida.

[Michael Duncan]

But I hugged him. I was just gonna say that was.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

His first text.

[Tony Petiti]

But you know, there's nearly 200,000 student athletes at the Division 1 level. Right. 85% of those teams and 75% of those student athletes aren't in the sports of football and basketball.

[Michael Duncan]

Right.

[Tony Petiti]

They're part of that Olympic development program. And we're all really proud of what our campuses and our conferences do as far as being a pipeline to the Olympic team. We can't lose that. We can't lose that because we don't have our house in order, we don't have federal legislation. And that's why I think we're all optimistic on both sides of the aisle. And you guys cover it very well. And there's some really distinct differences where they're not going to come together. I'll be very difficult to that. We feel like we've gotten some very good traction that you, when you look at this reasonably and you look at again, 500,000 young men and women are dependent depending on this. It's important for them to come together. And that's what our hope is today.

[Michael Duncan]

It's Interesting. I mean, we're also talking about just. You all made reference to defining name, image and likeness as it is defined, of being compensated for your name, image and likeness that we got a decision from the Supreme Court on. Clearly, initially, when this sort of opened the floodgates, there was a rush from every competitive school to try to create a marketplace basically where athletes weren't initially. I mean, some, maybe few, but as you mentioned, even in the NBA, not name, image and likeness contracts aren't everywhere. But there was a rush to create a local marketplace basically for compensation for recruits. For all that kind of thing going to happen in any sort of competitive marketplace, let alone sports which is immensely popular across the country. Is it your view that what you're trying to accomplish here at some level is A, protect the student athlete, but B, also get back to that sort of marketplace and not have a rush to sort of create a, you know, who's got the biggest boosters?

[Jim Phillips]

It was an artificial marketplace. It was pay for play. Let's call it what it is. And I think in this new age of collegiate athletics and this moving forward through settlement, we got to put some parameters around that. Tony spoke about it momentarily. Good commercial nil. Big brands elevating and amplifying and glamorizing our student athletes. We advocate for that.

[Michael Duncan]

Yep.

[Jim Phillips]

And moving forward, we'd love to see more of it. Yeah, but it has to. It has to meet the guardrails that we're going to put in place to avoid this artificial marketplace, which was pay for play.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. Because it's interesting, right? I mean, if you take nil, some of the highest grossing nil athletes in a traditional marketplace aren't in the power. You know, the major revenues for it. I mean, Livy Dunn, lsu, for example, perfect example. Nebraska volleyball team, another example. I mean, there are components to popular athletes where there's a marketplace, but it may not be the revenue sports that everybody thinks it is. And yet there's sort of a rush to get obviously the best athlete in. So you got to create this marketplace and this, in your view, would help what seems like from a fan's perspective, a divide of haves and have nots who's willing to push the edge of the envelope, try to get the best basketball football team on the. On the field feel, right?

[Jim Phillips]

Yeah, but go ahead.

[Tony Petiti]

Yeah, you're right. But it's all comers. And that's the structure that we're trying to create, that you don't have to be in the power four conference to step forward and say you want to participate in revenue share with student athletes.

[Michael Duncan]

Right.

[Tony Petiti]

And that's what our hope is. Our hope is that this thing trickles down throughout Division 1, not just at the top conferences. Those are campus by campus decisions. So the mandate isn't. You have to. It is an opt in kind of program.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

And look, and student athletes are still going to choose to go. There's a transactional piece of this. You can't, you can't understate that. But at the same time, you know, for some of the elite players where they play, the history of that institution, putting athletes into professional ranks, certain position groups do better at certain places.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

Before Nil, that was.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

This is the history of college athletics. Like, we all understand that each of our leagues has brands that, you know, that sort of step out and have, you know, more history and, and, you know, a longer legacy of competitive success that exists. Kids still care about that, fans still care about that. This, the transaction system, you know, influences it. But I still think that, you know, kids are going to make decisions like, look, it should matter who your coach is and who you relate to, who your position coach is, who comes into your home to speak with you and your family and like those things matter.

[Tony Petiti]

Also and maybe where you get your degree from.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

And I think that's the part about it with all the transferring kids obviously have the right to move and no one's suggesting that that's the wrong thing at all. But creating a system with more rationality may give kids a chance to pause a little bit, go a little bit deeper in building relationship. Maybe when one coach leaves, they'll wait a little longer when the next coach gets there to see if they can build a relationship before they decide to do something different. So that could be more healthy to the educational piece.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah. So have you thought, thought about any changes to that, you know, transfer portal process? Maybe some sort of, you know, cap on the number of transfers a school could take in in a given year. Just because, like, what I worry about as a fan is and, you know, talking to coaches and stuff is what's great about the sport and what's so, you know, thrilling about being involved in it is the development of the player and building that relationship and seeing them start, you know, as a freshman who needs a lot of support and seeing them become a great athlete, you know, and I, I worry in the transfer portal era, do you lose some of that with Nil? With Nil, you're presiding over a very difficult time in that I don't think.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

How many Is going to be something that regular. I think that gets to be really complicated telling certain students.

[Michael Duncan]

But it would put. But it would put the emphasis back on the schools to say, if I'm going to bring somebody on, they're going to get on the field.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

I think to be really clocky and you guys can jump in. But I think we're focused on when. I think what you've seen just recently in basketball. You saw it in football, like, you know, Ohio State going deep into the cfp, playing all those games while the transfer portal is open, while kids who are on a team that's trying to compete for the national championship are making decisions like, what's going to happen to me if I stay? If I don't get in the portal right away, am I going to lose a spot to somebody else? So I got to get in. Like, you know, Penn State's backup quarterback had a really tough decision. He was a Pennsylvania kid. He wanted to stay, you know, and he was trying to figure out, could he start. He knew that the quarterback was going to come back, and so he's trying to figure out, what am I doing next year? That's a tremendous amount of pressure on a young person to walk away from something he was a part of. He wasn't just a backup that wasn't playing. He was a meaningful player for them.

[Michael Duncan]

No, he scored a touchdown in the Big Ten championship.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

So this kind of pressure. So I think when we come together and we've been talking about it more frequently, it's like the. When. Like, there's no professional league that I'm aware of that has free agency in the middle of their postseason.

[Michael Duncan]

Right.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

So that's what you want to call the portal. Like, let's. Like, So I think a lot of this that's changing is all of the calendars have to be rethought, like, what's the right year? We're also putting incredible burdens on our assistant coaches. They're coaching deep into seasons, then they're being asked to recruit. Like, you know, their lifestyles are not easy. I know people think, well, this is a glamorous life, and your coaching is what they want to do.

[James McCarthy]

Yeah.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

A lot of them are obviously passionate about it, but we're putting a lot of burdens on them in terms of 365.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

It's not. It's not fair. It's not healthy.

[Jim Phillips]

Tony mentioned earlier, I. I think organically it's going to slow down with settlement. I really do. And let's not forget that every time you go into the portal, you lose credits. So we're all in for. I mean at the core it's about the educational experience. But with a cap system in place and some of the other guardrails, if you will, that will help to define this new age of collegiate athletics. I do think it's going to slow down and there'll be a more vested interest in staying at the institution you're at.

[James McCarthy]

Let's inform the perspective around transfers. So part of the challenge in answering your question first is we think about it every day, I think all of us, because you're just a phone call away from the next story complaint question about it. Second is there's been court activity that limits some of that ability. Certainly the frequency issue has been litigated at least once. When you transfer, there are some specific education impacts. So I sound like to get off my lawn guy right now. But let's talk about the time to graduation based on research over years extends your GPA or the quality of that educational experience declines across the spectrum. If you're a 4.0, the likelihood after transfer you're not a 4.0. The number of credits and your ability to enter a major and be eligible to play may be altered after the transfer. So pursuing that which you want may be very different to prepare you for the next stage in life. And the third is the likelihood of graduation decline. So length, quality and likelihood. So should that be regulated by educational enterprises, our campuses and our conferences? Seemingly yes. Now let's define what that means and part of that is the when. So when you think about the complexity of the problem, Tony's right. There's no pro league that has free agency during its championship. But most teams are not in the championship hunt. And so you take the basketball tournament with 350 plus Division 1 members, 68 make the tournaments for men's women's basketball. That means there's roughly 300 teams that are dormant. Maybe they're on the nit, maybe not. But it ends quite quickly. The backroom conversations, the secret phone calls, the third party influences. We have to combat that as well. That's where some of this oversight. I'm not looking for the next big government project in this era of efficiency, right?

[Michael Duncan]

Some rules would be nice, but the.

[James McCarthy]

Ability to set the rules not be continually litigated for common sense realities. That's why I think informing what happens upon transfer is real and that informs. Then what do you do about it? Which would indicate to my colleague's point, when the activity takes place to make It a healthy system and really a transparent system. The second would be to make sure that the frequency with which it can occur actually supports the kind of educational outcomes to which we're held responsible. Because here's a prediction. We're not that many years away from the stories. Well, look at these graduation rates. These schools aren't committed to education. We are. But you need some structure to facilitate that education. Otherwise the competitive pressures overwhelm without the governance that's appropriate.

[Kyle Johnson]

So that kind of, like, leads to my question where looking at this by establishing a national set of laws, it's like a win for students, it's a win for schools, a win for conferences, for athletics, for fans. What is really the hindrance leading to this chaos that you currently have of like, 34 different sets of rules? Is it just a lack of awareness among federal legislators of not knowing that this is something that needs to be done?

[James McCarthy]

I'll jump in first and my colleagues can add. First of all, everybody in college sports should raise their hand and say, we were slow to change. There was a system that was seen as working pretty well, not perfectly, but as we sit here on Capitol Hill, just pick the system that works perfectly. Right? I mean, everything.

[Michael Duncan]

You're not going to find a lot of it.

[James McCarthy]

It's a human endeavor, ripe for criticism. So the economics change, the expectations change, the pressures change, the willingness of state leaders to engage change, and we'll use the nca. College athletics are slow to adapt. Okay, so there's the confessional. You just wallow in that, or you say, let's pursue something different. And so now we're trying to make what would have been in the NCA time frame, decades of change in a matter of months, how much. And. And our authority is limited by the different laws that have been enacted and by the litigation. So let's go back to are there common sense elements that could be part of something that's introduced and pursued? I think we've done that. And what's the impediment? It's. Yeah, there's some cynicism. You guys should do this yourselves. Well, that is becoming limited based on the external realities. There's a lot going on in the federal government, and respectfully, I absolutely agree, but this doesn't exist anyplace else. And the downstream implications on policy issues around the Olympics. Those are real. Those are real.

[Michael Duncan]

Here's what. Just picking up on this, here's what I find so fascinating. Having been a collegiate. A consumer of all collegiate athletics. I mean, I love it. All of us do We've been huge fans for years, but growing up it was all sort of an NCAA top down regulation. Right? All four of you guys, your resumes read like you could run Fortune 50 companies and you're headed conferences. And the way that I look at this now, it's so interesting that you all are the ones that are up here driving it at a conference level. Now I understand that the revenue now and a huge, huge part of college athletics is governed by you individually in your respective conferences and collectively on what you can agree on. It feels like the NCAA that we grew up with, that was always the sort of top down. They're not as big of the piece of the solution. I don't want to put words in your mouth on this and I know you certainly don't want to take shots at a governing body, but am I misreading that? I mean it's interesting that the four of you are the ones that are leading this charge.

[James McCarthy]

We're not adversarial at all. I think we're respectful of change and that's hard at a national level. So when I referenced earlier, there are 360 plus Division 1 members, 360 colleges and universities. Our four conferences represent the high, high consistently competitive end. There are economics associated with that. There are expectations, there are pressures, there are support realities. Right. That's very different than many, many of the others who are in it for enrollment management purposes or the branding of being Division 1 within their state legislature that provide some conversation and opportunities. And so trying to make decisions in big rooms filled with people doesn't work very well. And that's part of the change. On the other hand, what the NCAA does like, I've never seen any of those 360 schools, even if they're frustrated about eligibility issues or infractions issues, they never decline an invitation to participate in an NCAA championship.

[Michael Duncan]

I've yet to see that.

[James McCarthy]

I've not seen that. And when the trophies are handed out and it's got the NCAA logo on it, they're holding it up. I just witnessed that myself.

[Michael Duncan]

One shining moment. It's pretty catchy too.

[James McCarthy]

Yeah. And so that's part of the difficulty of can we keep the big tent with a T on the end of that? It's not the big tent. The big tent together.

[Michael Duncan]

It's going to be the big 50 soon, Tony. Coast to coast people don't mind about that.

[James McCarthy]

Yeah, I'm just humble me in two time zones.

[Brent Smith]

You got New York and la, but.

[James McCarthy]

You know, can we make it? Can we make it work. But I think we have a different leadership responsibility than maybe 15 or 20.

[Michael Duncan]

That's interesting.

[Tony Petiti]

Josh.

[Jim Phillips]

I think moving forward, you're going to see more of a hybrid. I think you're going to see us take a little bit more active position in rulemaking and enforcement, specifically around settlement.

[Tony Petiti]

Yeah, I would just say I think your question is a really good one because optics are important. And listen, the NCAA hasn't made all the right decisions, but we're part of the ncaa and we've been responsible for a lot in some of those decisions that haven't really gone well. I mean, they try to serve the membership. I will say this with President Baker. He's done a really good job of staying connected with us, and we meet with him regularly. And in the end, I just think for the four of us, because of the brands that we have, the schools, the market, that we have a responsibility to the greater good of college sports to create something that has a sustainable future in it, not just for the biggest brands, but for the entire enterprise.

[Brent Smith]

Is it impossible to imagine more conference consolidation? I mean, you four here getting.

[Michael Duncan]

Probably working on it before they came in here. Well, my next question is going to make them fight, so. Yeah. Well, that's why we want to wrap it up.

[Brent Smith]

A lot of rumors about Big E, Stacey, cc, A couple coaches out there really want those two to combine. You know, I mean, all four of you guys work very well together.

[Michael Duncan]

You want to break some news, Jim?

[Brent Smith]

Is it impossible?

[Tony Petiti]

Not today, guys.

[Jim Phillips]

Josh, all I know is you enjoy being part of the Big 12 now, don't you?

[Michael Duncan]

Well, you know, listen, Mary was.

[Jim Phillips]

We talked about that a little bit earlier, Brett.

[Michael Duncan]

We did. And I understand that we've come to an understanding about targeting calls in college football playoffs.

[James McCarthy]

There's a difference between targeting and almost targeting.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

That was our correct.

[Michael Duncan]

Tony's got to fess up on that. But since you mentioned the playoff, let.

[Brent Smith]

Me just finish my. Is it impossible to imagine additional consolidation in college conferences?

[James McCarthy]

I've sent a memo to my president saying, I hope everyone stays where they are. Yeah, now, that may be easy for me. We have a pretty unique circumstance now with our 16. And I was in a meeting last week where the issue came up from a smaller campus leader, smaller conference campus leader. And I said, look, I'm supposed to be the one losing sleep over this, and I lose none. You're losing all of it. There are just realities or economic realities or practical realities about just expanding in numbers. There are traditions, you know, and when we talked about more, one of our Chancellors said, we know who we are, our fans know who we are, and why would we just make a leap now? That's us. Others may have different views, but it's not something that occupies the majority of my time. What we're doing with transfers, I told you, is every day. Yeah, but we deal around legal settlement, how we interact with states and how we interact with Congress. Those occupy a lot more of my thinking and time than does some next level expansion.

[Jim Phillips]

I would just echo Greg's sentiments. I mean, From a Big 12 perspective, we love the composition and makeup. Obviously, we went through realignment. We've got eight new members over the last two years. We love the direction of where we're going as a conference. And to Greg's point, again, we're focused on some of the bigger issues around collegiate athletics and making sure that we can all prosper together moving forward.

[Michael Duncan]

Tony, same?

[Caitlin Sutherland]

Yeah, I would say the same.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

I think the. This past year we had integration of the four new members for the first time and scheduling all the challenges, and you go 28 sports deeps like we do. But this last year has been. It's been settlement operations. It's been trying to get this settlement right to get ready for the hearing that we had the other day to build rules. We're taking on a whole new ecosystem, like, in terms of, like, actually how we're going to operate together, like rulemaking. Everything is going on. It's completely changing. So that's been a big piece of what the last year has been getting that right while we've had inside our conference, making sure that, you know, the four new members get to the place they need to be and that we do those things right. And, you know, scheduling, you know, from the way we think about it, is just sort of a living thing. You've got to look at how you schedule and get feedback from coaches and players. And I'm, you know, we'll get together in May as a conference. I'm sure I'll get a lot of feedback. No, I'm sure about how we scheduled and what we got right and what we need to do better. That's just, you know, that's just part of what it is. But we're, we're really focused on what we have right now and this next world and operating this next world for the institutions as best we can.

[Michael Duncan]

Well, you gentlemen are very impressive. Really appreciate the time that you've given us here today. You got a big row. I mean, it's tough to sell these guys on anything, right? Apple pie probably only gets, like 51. You know, I'm not sure that, you know, this is a tough deal. It's an important one. But we wanted to allow you to provide the context to why this is important from a fan perspective and. And the games that we all enjoy watching. So thank you for taking the time with us.

[James McCarthy]

Thank you.

[Kyle Johnson]

Thanks so much.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

Appreciate it.

[Brent Smith]

I just thought that was so interesting. And it's very clear that college athletics is standing at the edge of a cliff and beneath them is total chaos. And the only way to get to the other side is for Congress to build a bridge. It looks like national standards. And these guys are clearly devoted to trying to get some sort of national standard. I really hope Congress can figure it out.

[Michael Duncan]

It's interesting because, I mean, the first time that this was presented to me, I was like, what the hell does the federal government have to do with collegiate athletics? And I just like, why don't you clean up the mess yourself? You created a situation where you were basically, like, railroading famous and very talented athletes into just paying the school for their own name, image and likeness with no compensation whatsoever. That created a system where it all went, you know, haywire. But ultimately, when they all came back together, it was like the worst form of a booster system.

[Brent Smith]

Right.

[Michael Duncan]

You know, where it's like all this behind the scenes sort of nonsense. But now you hear more about it and you realize that, like, state legislatures are changing law, like tax laws to deal with trying to incentivize certain schools in certain states over their competition in the same conference in another school in another state. It kind of got to get involved at some level. It has the capacity of ruining collegiate athletics. So I don't know if, like, exactly their deal is exactly what needs to happen, but I totally agree that something needs to happen because this is. I mean, it's a big money deal. We just watched March Madness.

[Brent Smith]

Yeah, right.

[Michael Duncan]

That's a hard to ignore thing. The College Football Playoff. Hard to ignore.

[Brent Smith]

Right.

[Michael Duncan]

Big business.

[Brent Smith]

Right.

[Michael Duncan]

Kind of feels like any other big business that government would have an eye on, but it doesn't seem like it.

[Brent Smith]

I hope they can figure it out.

[Michael Duncan]

All right, we got one more interview with you. This is really, really good. Caitlin Sutherland, you've heard her hear a number of times talking about corruption, in particular foreign money, and how it's made its way into progressive leftist politics, influencing campaigns, ballot initiatives, the larger ecosystem. Some we've had an eye on forever. And I know a lot of you have, too, so listen to this. Well, you've heard her Here before on Ruthless, and she's sort of our go to on exposing public corruption all over the country. And they've got a bunch of new stuff going on. Caitlin Sutherland, Americans for Public Trust. How are you?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Good, thank you. Thanks for having me back.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, you got it. Sounds like you got a bunch of breaking stuff that you're working on. Our previous conversations focused a lot on foreign money working its way through the nonprofit world, having a material impact on elections, changing election law, all this sort of dark underworld of the left and how they've been sort of funding this network. But you've taken it out in the States now.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, that's absolutely right. So, you know, Americans for Public Trust, we've always been working at, you know, uncovering how much politics is influencing our public policy. And what we have discovered that it's, you know, foreign dark money that is influencing our elections and our politics. And that's what we've been working on, is how to stop the foreign funding of elections once and for all. And especially how to stop the foreign funding of ballot issues.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, right. Which is shocking at some level that we have to have this conversation. But. But it's something that's been pervasive. And I remember, you know, one of the last times you were here, you had like this big web, this big map of all the various places where foreign funding has gone and how it's sort of impacted elections in many ways. And from a federal government standpoint, like, I think people have gotten their arms wrapped around that. You've done a lot of good work to get Congress's attention on a bunch of it, but it's not just happening there. It's in the States and everywhere else.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, that's absolutely right. So, you know, just, you know, quick, you know, to back up just a little bit, you know, the foreign nationals cannot influence our elections. That's simple. That's been law for about a letter. Pretty basic. It's one of the basic, you know, tenets of our law, that foreign nationals can't influence our elections. Right. Most, you know, Americans also agree with that. So it's one thing that we can all agree on, that foreign nationals should not be influenced in our elections. But the key in that is, what does the word elections mean? Well, it's. It's really pretty limited. It's candidate elections, meaning that foreign nationals can't fund campaigns. Campaigns. They can't fund candidates. They can't fund, you know, committees. They can't fund super PACs. Well, gee, we all have worked in campaigns. There's so much that matters up to and including on election day that doesn't really fit in one of those nice little campaign buckets. So what we've had and what we've seen seen, you know, through my crazy webs that you've seen is that foreign money is coming in and influencing all these different vehicles that are election related but not elections. So one of those being ballot issues. Right. So that is what we have been working on the state and federal level is to close that loophole. It's pretty simple. You know, if you're a foreign national, you can't influence elections. Don't you think you shouldn't be able to influence ballot issues either? Yeah. Luckily states have caught on. There's been huge, huge momentum across the country. And as of today, four states just this year have passed a ban on the foreign funding of ballot issues.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah.

[Brent Smith]

And I know you've been in these states over the last couple of months. I know you had success in my home state of Ohio last November. Can you tell us a little bit about how that fight is going on the state level?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah. So Ohio was an amazing state to work with. They saw this, that their ballot issues were being corrupted by foreign money. Over $20 million in foreign, foreign backed wild. Yep. Made its way into Ohio. But legislative leaders in Ohio, they, they fought back. They said no more. They stepped up and they passed one of the strongest and most comprehensive bans on the direct and indirect foreign funding of ballot issues. And many states across the country, including Kansas, Wyoming, Kentucky and Indiana have followed suit this year and passed their own ban.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, it only makes sense if you think about it. The funny thing, in the states where there are really active ballot initiatives, I mean, it's one thing to ban, as we all agree, ban foreign money in direct campaigns for elected officials, but they also have to adhere to the laws of the ballot initiatives that are ultimately on the ballot that don't have the same conformity. I mean, this is, I imagine you drop into some of these state houses and have this conversation. People are sort of dumbfounded by how much has actually occurred already.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, absolutely. Let's take for instance Ohio and let's just, you know, explain what is a ballot issue. Folks may not even know that, you know, while I go in and I vote for or against it on election day, why wouldn't be covered in the ban for foreign nationals can influence our election. So it's a huge loophole. But these ballot issues, while, you know, an important part of direct democracy, oftentimes, you know, if you're at the grocery store. You know, if you're in the Midwest, you're at Meijer, you're at Publix, you're in Florida. And someone says, would you like to sign this petition to get this, you know, public policy on the ballot? But most of the times, I mean, it is the most far left extremist version of public policy. Because let's take Ohio. They're not going to vote for, you know, to pass some of these laws. So what they're doing is they're sidestepping the legislative process and they're picking the most far left radical policies. And we've been able to trace all the different states that this foreign funding has come in. And it is some extreme versions. You know, we're talking about, you know, abortion, no limits, you know, codify it. You know, radical changes to election policy, forced gerrymandering, like what they wanted in Ohio, Oregon, you know, let's just decriminalize basically every single drug that's so Oregon. Right. So, but also at the same time, what they're doing is they're targeting states with these concurrent contested elections. So take for instance, John Tester was on the ballot last, you know, last November. And they said, well, if we put abortion on the ballot with John Tester.

[Michael Duncan]

That'S trying to codify the left.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah.

[Taylor Lorenz]

And they try to, you know, get them across the finish line. So it's a very targeted, very cohesive weaponization of these ballot issues on the left. And they're using foreign money to do it.

[Brent Smith]

It also appears pretty strategic from these other foreign power players. And we always like to talk about our border problem in the context of people flowing in across the Rio Grande. But the border problem extends to money flowing in from countries that actually do not like us very much. We talked about elections and you're working on the elections thing. I know you guys also put out a big study about the billions and billions of dollars that are flooded flowing into our universities. Schools like mit, Carnegie Mellon, Stanford. These are schools that are producing the top engineers of the next generation in our country. People who are going to work on sensitive, like public works projects. And not for nothing, they also have big contracts from DoD and from the government. And so that is a problem that to me, it seems like a huge, huge problem that foreign countries are influencing our universities. And I don't think it's, it's a coincidence that our universities have gone off to the left side at the same time as this money's flowing in.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, another area where we've been, you know, tracing all the money, you know, when it comes to ballot issues, we've been able to trace, you know, that a foreign national has given, you know, Hans or Wyss, I know we love to talk about him here, has given 280 million to the 1630 Fund and they've turned around and spent 130 million in 25 states. So much money now. Ready for some more scary, you know, scarier numbers? What's going on with our colleges and universities? We were able to trace that 60 billion, billion with a B dollars has come from foreign sources into our colleges and universities. And yeah, as you said, it's coming to these top, top research institutions, the Ivy Leagues, Harvard, mit, Columbia. And you think, whoa, what's going on at all these universities? I mean, they're losing their federal funding because they're breeding grounds for these anti Semitic rallies. They are harboring hate around campus. And by the way, they are the top recipients of this foreign money. A lot of it from adversarial countries, China, Qatar, you name it, they're flowing into the universities.

[Michael Duncan]

It also explains a lot of the animosity that some of these colleges and, and universities have towards just sort of basic American values.

[Brent Smith]

Right?

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah.

[Michael Duncan]

I mean, there's been so many times over the last six months where I've looked at whether it's how they've handled the, you know, the Hamas protests or, or just, you know, kind of basic American value type stuff where they've come down either wishy washy or on the other side of it and you're like, how the hell do they land in that spot? Well, I don't know. If you do a little accounting according to your work, turns out that they have a pretty significant incentive to see it maybe not our way.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Oh yeah. So, you know, this foreign money, you know, we all know that foreign money is buying influence and it's buying. This foreign money is buying influence on these college campuses. And we can see a direct correlation between the universities that are getting this foreign money and what it's influencing, you know, particularly money coming from the Chinese. Right. That foreign money can buy access to research and can buy access, you know, just for influence over student bodies, you know, have them sway, be a little bit more sympathetic to Hamas, rather the United States. So when you lay it out and you start tracking it, you know, it's a huge problem. The good news is that because all this foreign money is coming in through all these various ways, be it elections and ballot issues and colleges and universities, Congress actually Stepped up a few weeks ago and they actually in the House passed pass legislation that would, you know, fix some of the foreign money coming into colleges and universities. So while it is, you know, very problematic when you hear these numbers and you see what this foreign money is doing, it's good to know that legislative leaders are working on reforms to stop it once and for all.

[Michael Duncan]

Well, and that's part of the thing that you guys do better than anybody is one flagging and making people aware of something that frankly most people wouldn't be unless you got the maps out and did the string thing with the.

[Taylor Lorenz]

It'S like 78 tabs right now, I think, open on my, my computer. So.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, but you're also providing some idea of how you fix this sort of thing. And I, and I think really sort of consensus ideas that should have wide bipartisan support.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, yeah, it's not so much, so much talk about an issue. Right. It's very important to do public education and, you know, issue advocacy and awareness. But you know, where we really started to see, you know, a change in the momentum is when you can actually have a solution. So it's not so much as, oh, you know, foreign money is bad, you should probably stop the foreign money. It's just like, well, how do I do that? And so that's why we've been you know, testifying in state houses across the country as well in Congress to work with very common sense, meaningful reform forms that close all these loopholes that allow foreign money into our institutions.

[Michael Duncan]

And all this money ultimately employs a cottage industry of the progressive left. Right. I mean, it's one thing to have an agenda and try to execute it in incredibly nefarious ways, which we have seen and we've just talked about. But they also just have like a standing set of organizations across the country that just continue day after day, day at trying to have this progressive left agenda that basically nobody would agree with. Yet they do.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Oh yeah. And think at the same time, you know, the left is the one railing against outside money, the so called dark money. She's like, hello, you've got foreign money backing your little prop up groups all around town to the tunes of hundreds of millions of dollars, yet nobody wants to talk about it. And that is what is really, really alarming is the silence. And I'm talking about you, Sheldon Whitehouse.

[Michael Duncan]

Like no one, man, no one, no.

[Taylor Lorenz]

One is talking about how the left is propped up by this foreign money. Everybody always likes to complain about the right's dark money, but I like to channel One of my former colleagues, who, Chris Winkleman once told me that if you talk about dark money on the right, you must. You must talk about dark money on the left. And it's not only the left's dark money, it's foreign dark money which can be regulated. And the states are taking action and they're absolutely rejecting the notion of foreign interference in their states.

[Michael Duncan]

It's such good work. It's such important work. So what's next? You just keep working through the states, ensuring that there's one transparency that everybody knows the problem, trying to pass legislation where it's capable.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, we're passing. Hopefully, you know, Arkansas this week should be heading to the governor's desk to sign their own ban on the foreign funding. We're actively working, you know, with Missouri, Montana, Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, probably forgetting a lot of states. There's been so much momentum that these states are taking in their own hands to close this foreign influence loophole once and for all. And we're also very excited that Congress should act as well.

[Michael Duncan]

Ah, that's great. You got to feel pretty good about this.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Yeah, it's great seeing legislative change. And let me tell you guys, the states move fast. It is so much. It's a. It has been a sprint, these legislative sessions, because they only have, you know, weeks at a time. So while we are very hopeful that Congress will close these various foreign influence loopholes as well, it has been great to partner with the states to see the legislative action very quickly. I mean, for as of this year is really, really unheard of. So they've been great partners on the states. It's a winning issue, you know, and, you know, just Donald Trump, even a couple weeks ago in his executive order said to prioritize this. That in his executive order said we should reject the notion that we should influence, that foreign nationals should be influencing our elections and even mentioned this issue of ballot, ballot measures.

[Michael Duncan]

That's the old belt and suspenders approach, which you guys do better than anybody. Americans for Public Trust. Where can people find out more?

[Taylor Lorenz]

We can check out our [e-mail] we're on X at Apublic Trust.

[Michael Duncan]

That's awesome. Caitlin Sutherland, thank you so much for coming back in. Welcome. Anytime. Anytime you get new developments, come on back. Let us all know. We've been following this for a long time. Very important to the program.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Great. Well, thank you, guys.

[Brent Smith]

She is a real tactician, and obviously she's been crisscrossing the country, hitting all these states at the beginning of the year. Sounds like she's got a full plan to keep doing that. And it's a subject that's near and dear to Smug's heart.

[Kyle Johnson]

Yeah, I mean, money. It's a huge deal and you love to see it's gotten on the radar of a lot of folks. Elon's on the case. It's important that everyone becomes aware of what a problem this is becoming.

[Michael Duncan]

Yeah, totally. So listen, our question of the day was, does the media bear any responsibility for some of the. It seems like an influx in political violence here. Give us your honest answers. Be very interested. And if you like and subscribe, we'll read all of them and, you know, we'll select a few for Thursday. Here's to hope in the old man wishing him well on his assignment this week. I know he's notably absent here, but we're thinking of him always. Do we miss our friend.

[Kyle Johnson]

He'll be back soon.

[Michael Duncan]

He'll be back soon. He'll be back soon. He'll be back. At a minimum, next Tuesday might be out Thursday, but such is life in the business. Anyway, I think we did it, fellas.

[Kyle Johnson]

I think so. Absolute banger of an episode. Gentlemen, thank you so much to the commissioners for that wonderful discussion. Thank you so much, Caitlin Sutherland, for also enlightening our audience. So until next time, minions, keep the faith, hold the line, and own the libs. We'll see you Thursday. Stay ruthless.

[Michael Duncan]

Marketing is hard, but I'll tell you a little secret.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

It doesn't have to be. Let me point something out.

[Michael Duncan]

You're listening to a podcast right now and it's great.

[Caitlin Sutherland]

You love the host.

[Michael Duncan]

You seek it out and download it. You listen to it while driving, working.

[Taylor Lorenz]

Out, cooking, even going to the bathroom.

[Michael Duncan]

Podcasts are a pretty close companion. And this is a podcast ad. Did I get your attention? You can reach great listeners like yourself.

[Taylor Lorenz]

With podcast advertising from Libsyn Ads. Choose from hundreds of top podcasts offering.

[Michael Duncan]

Host endorsements or run a pre produced ad like this one across thousands of shows.

[Taylor Lorenz]

To reach your target audience in their favorite podcasts with Libsyn ads, go to.

[Michael Duncan]

Libsynads.com that's L I B S Y N ads.com today.

[Tony Petiti]

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call, talk.

[Michael Duncan]

To one of them.

[Tony Petiti]

They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's gonna happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison.

[Michael Duncan]

I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy, funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose slap.

[Tony Petiti]

Somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends.

[Michael Duncan]

I never know what's gonna happen.

[Tony Petiti]

It's a great show.

[Michael Duncan]

Subscribe today.

[Tony Petiti]

Beautiful.

[Michael Duncan]

Anonymous.