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- [00:00]
Dan Savage
You're listening to the Savage Lovecast, Dan Savage's sex and relationship show for grown ups. If you're under 18, get out of here, youngin.
- [00:09]
If you're stuck in a relationship quandary or if you're looking for sexual harmony, well, there's nothing you can't cast on the Savage Lovecast. Forgive me for this, Nancy. Please play the first audio clip I sent you. Now, I think when you know I did very well with the gay vote, okay? I even had, I even played the gay national anthem as my walk off, okay? And I think it probably helped me, but I did great with no Republicans ever gotten the gay vote like I did. And I'm very proud of it. I think it's great. That was Donald Trump, President of the United States, doing what he does best, lying his fucking face off. In this instance, earlier this week, he was lying about the gay vote, claiming he won it. J.D. vance engaged in a little pre lying, a little wishful thinking about the gay vote before the 2024 election. Vance said this on the Joe Rogan Experience. And I think that frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if me and Trump won just the normal gay guy vote because again, they just wanted to be left the hell alone. And now you have all this crazy stuff on top. Donald Trump and J.D. vance did not win the gay vote in 2024. Freaky gays, Normie gays, normie looking gays who are secretly freaky, nice gay couples with secret sex dungeons in their suburban homes and freaky looking gays who want marriage and monogamy and a suburban home without a sex dungeon. They didn't. We didn't vote for Trump. As NBC reported Immediately after the 2024 election, LGBT voters shifted even more solidly into the Democratic camp. According to the NBC News exit, Harris led president elect Trump 86% to 12% among LGBT voters, the poll found. That is a 15 point change from 2020, when Trump won 27% of the LGBT vote against Biden. Sorry, Donald Trump, and I know you're a listener, but you can't spin a 15 point swing away from you by LGBT voters as some sort of landslide victory for Trump among LGBT voters. Because you played a Village People. So gay voters, LGBT voters. For the record, we were the only demographic group that shifted away from Trump in a big way between 2020 and 2024. Black voters, Hispanic voters, Asian voters, people living in blue cities, Gen Z voters. While Harris won these groups, Democrats lost ground among all of these crucial demographics. Between 2020 and 2024, enough ground that Trump won every swing state. Trump doubled his support among Black voters and 2024, going from 8% of the Black vote in 2020 to 15% in 2024. There was a 22 point shift in support for Trump among Hispanic voters between 2020 and 2024 and a 30 point shift to Trump among Asian voters. Only the gays, only the queers, only the LGBT moved decisively away from Trump. If everyone had voted in 2024 like LGBT voters voted in 2024, if point swings away from Trump among Asian voters and Hispanic voters and Gen Z voters, Kamala Harris would be the President of the United States right now. Another interesting footnote while we're delving into past elections. In 2012, Obama and Romney split the straight vote down the middle, but Obama won the gay vote overwhelmingly by a 3 to 1 margin, which means gay voters reelected Obama in 2012 back to 2024. I am not saying that no gay man out there voted for Trump. I wouldn't be climbing out on a limb if I said gay men were probably overrepresented. Statistically Speaking, in the 12% of LGBT voters that backed Trump in 2024, not only wouldn't I be out on a limb, I wouldn't be anywhere near a tree. But those men, gay men who voted for Trump, they were and they are and they always will be, a despised minority among gay men. If they weren't despised among gay men, if they weren't viewed as complete pariahs in the gay community, you wouldn't read headlines like this one in Gay Times Magazine, Inside the Lonely World of MAGA Gay Men. I haven't read the piece myself by Emma Padra because it's behind a paywall and I'm not gonna shell out money to spend time with a bunch of MAGA faggots whining about how no one will fuck them. We know that's what the piece can see. The lead, the first paragraph of the piece, you know where it is going before the paywall kicks in. Because that's what these pieces are always about. It's so unfair that no one will fuck me just because I voted for the guy who threw trans people out of the military and who is right now trying to gut funds for prep and who has appointed anti gay judges to federal courts and who took pride flags down at the Stonewall National Monument and who legalized discrimination against gay people by healthcare providers and federal contractors and on and on. Fuck MAGA gays. Or better yet, don't. I stumbled over a fascinating post on A substack newsletter recently called Heuristical, written by British sociologist Jeremy Stangroom about a controversy that enveloped the East Coast Lesbian Festival. The very first east coast lesbian festival in 1989. The event in Massachusetts was intended to be a celebration of lesbian culture and values. And it was a specifically lesbian separatist event, which used to be a thing, lesbian separatism. So basically no males were allowed at the East Coast Lesbian Festival. It was for women and girls only. And then things blew the fuck up when two lesbian moms showed up with their 16 month old son. Yeah, it got vicious. As one furious lesbian separatist at the event argued, I believe that lesbians should not be bearing and raising boy children in the first. Lesbians should not put our valuable energy into raising the oppressor. And lesbians should not be compromised in the development of women only spaces by the presence of boy children. I bring this history up or this herstory up for one reason. There was a slogan that lesbian separatists used at the time that I would like to bring back. And I don't think it counts as appropriations as lesbian separatism really isn't a thing anymore. A little like how we took Feast of the Ass, a Catholic feast day about donkeys that no one was celebrating anymore for centuries. Now it's the day we celebrate the eating of butts. I want to adopt and repurpose this old lesbian separatist slogan. Men don't breed them, don't feed them. Angry separatists shouted that slogan at the lesbian moms at the little boy at that festival. Men don't breed them. As in don't have boy babies. Don't feed them. As in don't feed any boy babies you might have by accident. It is a little dark when you follow it through to its logical conclusion. But today, nowadays, the term breed, at least among gay men, means to fuck someone in the ass and feed. Yeah, well, that one's obvious. So I propose we bring back men, don't breed them, don't feed them. But in reference specifically to MAGA gay men, don't breed them, don't feed them. Don't fuck their asses, don't fuck their faces. If these guys want to get bred and fed, they can breed and feed each other. It's telling that instead of hooking up with each other, MAGA gays spend all of their time complaining to reporters about how liberal and progressive gay men don't want to fuck them. It's almost as if they find each other just as repulsive as the rest of us find them. I mean, why aren't they dating and fucking each other then? So normie gays, gays who voted overwhelmingly against Trump don't breed MAGA gays don't feed MAGA gays and MAGA gays. If you don't want to fuck each other, if you don't want to breed each other, then you'll just have to go fuck yourselves. All right. Coming up on this week's show, a caller from Australia is excited about pegging a military man, a Navy boy twice her size. She wants to do it right and asks for tips and tricks. And a caller reconnected with an old high school crush while sitting Shiva. The old crush asked the caller out, but there's a catch. That old crush is married. How can the caller find out whether his marriage is open or unhappy enough that the caller might be able to pry it open? And this week's guest, Christine Emba, contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and the author of Rethinking Sex, returns to the show. She's here to speak with me about her recent column about looks maxers, where the manosphere is going now and what we can do to get Gen Z off their screens and into each other's pants. And special note for Magnum subs. Our next Savage Love Live is actually going to be on Thursday, April 9, not Wednesday, April 8, as previously announced. Sorry about the confusion, folks. Please make a note of it. And if you are not already a Magnum sub, now is the time. Become a Magnum sub and you get more love. Cast, more questions, more guests, more Savage Love. The column invites to Savage Love Live, our zoom hangout with me and Nancy and our Magnum subs. You get sex and politics. You get so much more when you are a Magnum sub. And if you want more and you know you want more, become a supporter of the show. Become one of my subs right now. That's an order at Savage Love. Subscribe this episode is brought to you by Floria Is life Changing. All natural organic formulas for your most intimate needs right now. Get 20% off your first order by going to foriawellness.com savage or by using Code Savage at checkout. This episode is sponsored by Sundays for Dogs Dog food using the same ingredients and care you'd use when cooking for yourself and your family. And really dogs part of the family? Go to sundayfordogs.com savage50 and get 50% off your first order or just use code savage50 at checkout. This episode is brought to you by Carafem an abortion and reproductive healthcare provider. Care FM offers both in person care in Atlanta, Chicago and Washington, D.C. and telehealth options for abortion pills by mail in 21 states. CareFM's team of licensed medical professionals provide personalized abortion care options focused on your needs, your preferences and your values. Visit cara femm.org to learn more. That's C A R A F m.org. Hey Dan and Nancy, I'm a bipoly man from sunny Melbourne, Australia. Anna, one of my anchor partners, and I have a fun debate and we'd love for you to decide who's right. I think Anna is queer and she thinks she's straight. She loves having sex with men and has multiple male partners. She's only romantically attracted to men. She's also a sadist, but is only interested in pussy torture, beating breasts and fisting. So sex in love with men, sadism with women. Hi Dan, it's Anna, the woman in question. I also love to swing with Leo and am happy to play with ladies
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Christine Emba
because it drives him wild almost as
- [11:43]
Dan Savage
much as me watching him play with men. I feel straight because I'm only physically and romantically attracted to men. I am not attracted to women, but my sexy times clearly blur the lines. Do you consider heteroflexible to be part of a straight spectrum or the queer spectrum? Am I straight or queer? I have in the past described sexual identity as a bit of a layer cake. There's the first layer, which is who you want to do, what you want to do. There's the middle layer which is what you're doing and then there's the top layer which is what you tell people, how you identify and if your layers are in neat alignment, what you want to do is reflected by what you are doing and is reflected then by what you tell people. You've got a pretty neat cake. But sometimes people are messy closet cases and what they want to do is and what they are doing and it's certainly not what they're telling people. And that cake is a wreck. Your cake isn't a rack. You're not a closet case. Your layers just aren't necessarily in perfect alignment. There's what you want to do, the kinds of people you are attracted to romantically, sexually. That's men. Then there's what you are doing, which is you do sometimes play in a kink context with women. You're not sexually romantically attracted to women, but the activity, the sadism, the kink that you explore that your a little by for I guess that layer is not in perfect alignment with your bottom layer. But then there's what you tell people. And there's a reason you tell people you're straight, because it most accurately reflects how available you are to potential partners. Yes, you do sometimes. You're sometimes seen in public playing with women. And people might assume then that you are romantically or sexually attracted to women and therefore available for women who might want to date. But that's not true of you. So you, Anna, telling people that you are straight when it comes to sex, when it comes to romantic attraction, I think is roughly accurate. It is what you want to communicate to people, and it is how you want to be understood. And sometimes we want to be understood because we just want to be known for who and what we are. We want to be seen. And sometimes we want to be understood because we don't want to give people false hopes. We don't want people to make assumptions about us that are not true. You don't want the women that you play with to think that they have a shot at you romantically or sexually. When they don't, you're just down to play. You're down to explore kink and BDSM with partners of any sex, any gender. But when it comes to love and romance, when it comes to sex, when it comes to who you cuddle with or spoon with or make out with, you are straight. So, Anna, I feel like you are entitled to identify as straight with maybe a little heteroflexible glaze or edge or heteroflexible sprinkles when it comes to kink play. And I think Anna is the best person to make the determination about whether they're queer identified or straight identified. And I think there's a really good reason that someone like Anna, someone like you, Anna, would identify as straight. You want to be understood, but you also want people to understand. You want to be understood for who you are, mostly. And you want people to understand how you might be available to them and how you might not be available to them. And while you're certainly available to other women for kink, you are not available to other women for love, sex, or romance. And I think identifying as straight really puts that across. And you have my blessing to identify as straight. This episode is brought to you by forea, makers of Awaken Arousal Oil, Intimacy Melts and Sex Oil. 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Intimacy Melts helps her experience deep internal waves of pleasure. Sex Oil lubricates during sex and creates a juicy experience for all. This magic combination creates the ultimate sexual experience and will take your connection with your partner to the next level. Experience your juiciest and deepest sensual experiences with Foreia Forea is offering a special deal for my listeners. Get 20% off your first order by visiting foriawellness.com savage or by using the code Savage at checkout. That's F O r I a wellness.com savage for 20% off your first order I recommend trying Awaken or their Pleasure set with all three of their bestsellers. Let them know the lovecast sent you. Boreawellness.com savage for 20% off your first
- [17:41]
Caller
order hi Dan, I am a hetero flexible middle age cisgendered woman calling from Australia. I have recently realized that I am quite interested in pegging and a man and I've jumped on field based on your recommendation and found myself Navy brat who is popping into port next week and I'm hoping to pop into his port but I need your help in preparing me for that. Basically what I would like to understand is like what should I expect? Is he gonna come? Like is he gonna ejaculate and how do I best achieve that? Like what makes fucking a man's ass good? I've seen lots of videos of him being fucked by other women, like wearing panties with his legs up and it's, it's pretty hot and I'm. I'm into it. But I want to know like how am I best gonna achieve a good time for him? I am quite like a slight woman that is used to just kind of being dominated by men which I'm also into. But I'm really excited about this kind of power play because he's like a Super. Like he's probably like double my size. And I just like the idea of feeling powerful. And he definitely feels like someone I can achieve that with. So I just want to know one, what do I expect from him in terms of like what happens in a man's body when he gets in the ass? Well, and I also want to know how to best someone's ass. Like obviously a strap on and some lube. But like, please help me prepare because I want this to be the first of many positive experiences. But I, I need your know how please help and wish me luck.
- [19:42]
Dan Savage
What happens in a man's body when he gets and well, well, anal stimulation is, is amazing. Some men, most men with prostates who are into getting fucked have wired prostates. Prostate stimulation, stimulation of the prostate gland turns them on. It's not poking at it. You don't drive a dildo or a finger directly into a prostate. It's more like putting pressure on it. Just like you don't when you're going to stimulate a woman's mammary gland or a man's mammary gland. Stimulate the nipple, stimulate the chest. You don't poke the chest with your finger. You squeeze and massage and rub and lick the tit. Right. It's the same thing with that. Well, not going to get your tongue all the way to the prostate gland unless you're a lizard. But it's the same thing with the prostate gland. You're putting pressure against it. You're rubbing up against it, you're pushing against it, I guess, not squeezing it, unless you get your whole hand in there and open your hand, which you cannot. And that feels good. And again, for guys with wired prostate glands, there are guys out there who really enjoy getting fucked, who love getting fucked. And they don't necessarily have wired prostate glands. They don't really particularly feel prostate stimulation. But what they enjoy is that feeling of being open, of being full, of having their ass fucked. And yeah. So wired prostate gland or not wired prostate gland, you can achieve giving him pleasure. I feel like you don't need me or my expertise really to help you out here. You're going into this first time pegging experience with a partner who has been pegged many times by other women. You have seen the videos. I would kind of like to see those videos myself. You have seen the videos. Consider entering hump in 2027 humpfilmfest.com submit not with his videos without his consent. But maybe if he wants to make a video with you, you could make that video. You could even make an educational hump video where he walks you through how he likes getting fucked, what works for him. And that's what you need to know. You need to know how he likes getting fucked. You've seen him get fucked in these videos. You're chatting with him about you fucking him. Have you told him that this is your first pegging experience? That although he's very experienced at being pegged by dominant women, that you've never gotten to play the dominant role, that you've never gotten to peg a man. And you're very much looking forward to this, but you need some guidance. There are people out there who I don't know, love to get tied up and have been tied up a million times. And they'll sometimes play with someone who has no experience tying anybody up, but wants to tie somebody up. And the person who has gotten tied up a million times may give a lot of input and advice and instruction to the person tying them up. Even though the person tying them up is in the dominant role and they're in the submissive role, they're the one with experience getting tied up. They know what works for them. They know what best practices look like, they know what safe bondage is and they will relay all of that to the brand new bondage top having their first experience. He can do all of this for you as the brand new Dom pegging woman. Not that all people who peg or fuck are dom. Some people are sub tops or sub peggers. So yeah, a strap on and some lube and good communication and being honest. You with with this guy, have you told him that you have never done this before and you are going to need him to tell you to walk you through how to fuck his ass in a way that works for him. You say you want to make sure that he comes. I would encourage you to watch in addition to the videos that he sent you, maybe some gay porn where people are getting fucked in the ass and some pegging porn where men are getting fucked in the ass by women wearing strap on dildos. And watch those guys come, I guarantee you 99 times out of a hundred when the guy getting his ass fucked by somebody with a dick or somebody wearing a strap on, when that guy getting fucked comes, it's because he is jacking off, he is stroking himself, he is pleasuring himself and stimulating himself as it happens. Sure, some people can have in theory, I'm a doubter, I'm a truther, a hands free orgasm. And maybe he's one of those people. Some people can have prostate only orgasms where basically the semen is kind of pushed out of their dick by tremendous amounts of prostate stimulation. Maybe he's one of those guys, but odds are he's not. Odds are while you peg him, you will catch a groove, you will find a rhythm and he will be stroking himself and getting closer and closer to orgasm as you peg the out of him. But let him take the lead. Even though you want to be the dom and you are going to be the penetrative partner. The partner doing the penetrating. I don't know if penetrative is the right word there. You will be the partner doing the penetrating. You will be in the dominant role. Let him lead. He is more experience than you do. And when he comes, it's going to be because he's stroking his dick as you peg the shit out of him. But yeah. Oh my God. Hot. He's twice your size and you are going to make that man your bitch. Enjoy. This episode is brought to you by Sundaes for Dogs, which is the most delicious, nutritious dog food that has ever landed in a bowl in our home. Just ask Triscuit, our cute little Cairn terrier, a very fussy eater who tells us she loves Sundaes for dogs by wolfing it. 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- [26:14]
Caller
Aw.
- [26:14]
Dan Savage
Love our dogs. Make the switch to Sundays we did and you should go right now to sundaysfordogs.com 50 to get 50% off your first order. Or you can use the code savage50 at checkout. I can't tell you really. I'm not exaggerating how much our dogs love this new food that's suddenly in the house. Sundays for dogs. That's 50% off your first order at sundaysfordogs.com Savage50 sundaysfordogs.com Savage 50 or use code Savage50 at checkout.
- [26:48]
Caller
Hi Dan, Nancy and the tech savvy at risk youth. I'm a 40ish year old straight woman married to my husband of 13 years and I guess my question is an existential one. So I'm wondering if men and women are actually supposed to live together. The background is that after 13 years of marriage I'm just now realizing that my husband seems to have no interest in my inner life, you know, my thoughts and feelings, and doesn't seem to think that he has any duty of care when it comes to me and my emotional needs. When I talk to other women about it, women my age and older women, they all kind of shrug it off and say, well, of course he doesn't. The general response is that we shouldn't expect this from men and that that's what female friends are for. So I guess my question is, do you agree? Am I naive for thinking that my husband should be able to hold me emotionally and provide care, listening and understanding like I do for him? And if so, then is marriage a completely obsolete institution now that women no longer need to rely on men financially the way they used to in the past? And just a little background about why it took me 13 years to realize this. I think it's because we had children really early into our marriage and so I spent the first decade really distracted by being parents, newborn phases, then toddler stages, and now that they're older and require less hands on time, I guess I have more time to think about me and my needs. And yes, I have spoken to him about it, but nothing has changed. What do you think, Don?
- [28:25]
Dan Savage
Joining me to help tackle this question, Christine Emba has thought deeply about dating, mating, marriage and sex. She's a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and author of the book Rethinking a Provocation. You may remember when Christine was on the show last time, we had an argument and I wanted to have her back to help me tackle this question. Christine, thank you so much for coming back on the show.
- [28:48]
Christine Emba
Of course, I love it here.
- [28:50]
Dan Savage
So I wanted to have you on in particular because you recently wrote a column that made me despair of men and worry for Gen Z. Although I'm generally a fan of men, practically a collector at this point. You wrote about this dude, Braden Peters, and I don't know if I should be pleased his name hasn't come up on my show before or worried that me and my listeners are really out of touch. Who is Braden Peters and what does his existence tell us about men, women, sex, politics, dating and Gen Z? Sure.
- [29:19]
Christine Emba
Well, I don't know if it tells you that your listeners are out of touch. I feel like he's a very generational figure. So. Yeah, but Braden Peters is an influencer and he's known on the Internet under the nominer clavicular and he's an influencer specifically in sort of the looksmaxing trend and field. So looks maxing is this movement that emerged from kind of incel subculture and incels, as we all know at this point. Unfortunately, these guys who feel like they'll, you know, never get relationships and blame women for it.
- [29:52]
Dan Savage
Involuntary celibates. We talked a lot about involuntary celibates over the last like 10, 15 years. Particularly there were some horrendous acts of violence where guys who were sort of black pilled in the incel online community attacked women, murdered women because of this rage. And there hasn't been an incel sort of related or adjacent mass shooting in years. But from the incel community has kind of emerged these looksmaxers. And I guess if I had to choose between a guy shooting up a yoga studio in a rage or hitting himself in the face with a hammer to look smacks, I would choose the latter.
- [30:32]
Christine Emba
I would vote the hammer. Absolutely. Yeah. If the traditional incels were sort of really nihilistic looks, maxers are maybe slightly more optimistic and that they believe that, you know, their looks are the reason that they don't have status, can't get girls, et cetera, but they can maximize their looks. The phrase comes from like gaming culture and Dungeons and Dragons where you'd like get points and give your characters different assets and they're like shoving all their points into looks and they believe that you should go as far as possible do whatever you can to maximize your looks according to a sort of of perfect model of looks they've sort of come up with in their own forums. That is a man. Like it's kind of a stereotypical white man. Matt Bomer, I think, is the person clavicular himself, idolizes.
- [31:23]
Dan Savage
Which is ironic because Matt Bomer is gay.
- [31:26]
Christine Emba
Right? Yes. So we'll get back to that point for sure. But yeah, looks maxing is kind of anything from just like going to the gym and working out to, you know, ordering Chinese peptides off the Internet and like taking testosterone or maybe like hitting your face with a hammer to create micro fractures that maybe Will cause your jawline to get a little bit larger,
- [31:48]
Dan Savage
theoretically to doing crystal meth, which is a part of clavicular's beauty routine because it suppresses appetite. It does seem that it's hard not to read into the looksmaxers ethos. This, almost this accusation that we're going to be as shallow as we've accused women of being and make it all about appearance and looks and treat ourselves as this commodity. I do remember people saying when we all were debating about incels, a lot of young men need to get the message that they need to work on themselves. The message that these men got or seem to have taken is I need to work on myself physically. I need to be a better specimen rather than work on myself in a holistic way. Yeah, like go to the gym, turn yourself out to your best advantage. But also don't be a shallow, nihilistic, repulsive piece of shit, which it seems to be part of the package with the looks maxers.
- [32:47]
Christine Emba
Right? Yeah, go to the gym. But also maybe read a book. But yeah, so, I mean, clavicular himself became sort of a famous influencer because he would stream online about his looks, maxing practices, and he was really, really extreme. Like, he says he started taking testosterone at 14. He says, like you say he, you know, crystal meth to cut weight and achieve weight loss. And it's odd. He talks about frequently, you know, going out and being able to get girls. But it's almost like a side effect if the incels wanted to be in relationships or have sex at least. Like looks maxers kind of see getting women as evidence of status. But clavicular especially, it's kind of unclear if he actually even wants women.
- [33:43]
Dan Savage
I don't know what you mean to imply, Ms. Emma.
- [33:47]
Christine Emba
Yeah, I mean, he was profiled in the New York Times and there's this moment where he basically says, like. Like it's almost better knowing that he can have sex than actually having sex. Because, you know, sex would be a waste of his time and a distraction from his streaming and gym regimen, which is. It's interesting.
- [34:04]
Caller
Like what.
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Christine Emba
What are our motivations here?
- [34:06]
Dan Savage
Status is often a motivation, especially when it comes to sexual competition. Mate selection. Often people will choose mates that aren't the people that they're necessarily attracted to sexually or emotionally, but. But that are the people who are generally regarded as desirable by most of their friends or by the whole fucking world or men in general or women in general. And that seems to be what. When I check in on the looks maxers and the way they mog each other and they seem to be more in competition with each other for status than in competition with each other for mates. Just like their shoulder muscles are something they brandish at each other to outdo each other physically.
- [34:50]
Caller
Yeah.
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Christine Emba
The girls are standing in the corner somewhere.
- [34:52]
Dan Savage
The girls are this display behavior and not necessarily an erotic target.
- [34:59]
Christine Emba
Yeah, I think looks maxing, it's an extreme, of course, but it does say something about kind of the moment and especially the moment that Gen Z ers and younger generations are inhabiting. First of all, there's just this focus on looks and the idea that looks are everything. And we live now in an increasingly just sort of visual culture. Right. Like if you're dating, you're swiping online, you're looking at someone's face. You know, people are making money from streaming, and video journalists are made to not just be journalists, but also have a TikTok and a podcast and like, you know, be a figure, be a brand. And so you, you get the sense that they've imbibed this and they're like, okay, looks, looks do matter and status does matter. And then I think also economically, there's this feeling that, like, everything is kind of falling apart. Like the ground is sort of falling out from underneath you. Almost the best thing to do is just like, self optimize and gain as much status and power as you can in whatever way, even if you're taking kind of insane seeming shortcuts, like starting testosterone at 14 or beating yourself in the face with a hammer, because you just have to get ahead. And like, that's more important than relationships, than sex, than anything else. Like, those are kind of side games.
- [36:11]
Dan Savage
We are living with the first generation that kind of grew up in the Instagram Panopticon, grew up observing others performing self, but also then performing self themselves on Instagram. And I really feel like it's breaking people and not just. There's been a lot of concern about young women, girls and the damage done to girls by Instagram. What Zuckerberg knew or didn't know or meta knew or didn't know about the negative impacts of social media on young people. And we were talking, there's been a lot of conversation about its impact on young women. And yet here come the young men who grew up in the Instagram Panopticon, who seem to be not all of them. We can't extrapolate from Clavicular's existence that this is hashtag not all Gen Z men, not all men. But we are seeing, I think in these guys evidence that it wasn't just breaking or harming adolescent girls, but adolescent boys in a way that we didn't see coming.
- [37:20]
Christine Emba
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, you know, I'm a millennial, so I'm kind of familiar with the era of the metrosexual. And like, men have in some times at least absorbed the pressure that women have to sort of make themselves beautiful, but they always have to give it a different name so that it doesn't seem feminized.
- [37:39]
Dan Savage
Well, the ones who are straight have to give it a different name.
- [37:42]
Christine Emba
That's fair.
- [37:43]
Dan Savage
Gay guys have always been consciously aware that, like, we are subject to the male gaze too. Just the gay male gaze, which is as scrutinizing and sometimes as brutal as the gaze that women are subjected to by straight men.
- [37:56]
Christine Emba
Interesting. Yeah, but now everyone is subject to the male and female gaze constantly, all the time, and we're seeing what that looks like in a different sector.
- [38:08]
Dan Savage
Hey micro listeners, there's more of my conversation with Christine Emba on the Magnum version of the show, including a call we took together from a woman who snooped on her husband's phone and can't unsee what she saw. You can hear the rest of my conversation with with Christine on the Magnum version of the show, which you can subscribe to at Savage Love. You get lots of perks for being a sub. More lovecast, more Savage Love invites to Savage Love Live and more. Get it all. Get all the savage love you've got coming to you by becoming a sub now at Savage Love.
- [38:37]
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- [39:53]
Caller
Learn more@carafem.org hi Dan, this is a 52 year old CIS female calling from just north of Toronto, Ontario. One of my best friend's mothers passed away. After the funeral we went back to the family's home for the Shiva and I encountered a man who I had been friends with many, many, many moons ago when we were both teenagers and I couldn't help but feel the same attraction to him that I felt as a teenager. And now, with the benefit of age and some emotional intelligence and emotional maturity, I can see that what I liked about him back then still exists today. I didn't have the words for it back then. The unfortunate thing, unfortunate for me, not for him, is that he is married. And while we spoke for quite a while at the Shiva, we certainly did not talk about the quality of his marriage or how happy he is or is not in that union. So my question to you was, I know that I'm going to see him again in the future. He sent me a text saying hey, it was great to see you. Let's get together for dinner or for coffee. How do I go about asking him if his marriage is open or not, or whether there is even a possibility of him opening up his marriage so that if he is interested, we can explore my attraction to him?
- [41:59]
Dan Savage
I don't want to be crude, especially about a romantic possibility, a romantic connection that may have been reignited or re sparked at something as somber as a Shiva. But did this guy want to fuck you in high school? Did you get the impression at the Shiva that he wanted to fuck you still or fuck you now or fuck you then and there? You say you made plans to get together at some point for coffee or dinner and that was his idea, but was he being polite to an old acquaintance and saying hey, we should get together sometime and catch up? Or did you get the sense from him that just as he wanted to fuck you in high school, he still wants to fuck you, wife or no wife, marriage or no marriage, open or not, that seems relevant. Not that you can't shoot your shot, not that you can't go for it. Not that you can't just ask him you can make the dread direct statement and say to him, I had such a crush on you in high school and never acted on it because I was four years older in the age gap then high school, four years and is enormous. It's all of high school, that age gap. But now 4 year age gap doesn't really mean anything. But the fact that you're married, that means something. So I would love to get dinner or coffee sometime. Or you could talk about this. You could say all this to him during dinner or coffee. I always had a thing for you, and it's kind of melancholy to meet you later in life and still have that thing for you. But nothing is possible between us because you're married and that means nothing's possible between us. It's highly likely that if he invited you to dinner and the invitation was urgent and not just a gesture, a courtesy, that you're about to find out whether he's in an open marriage or not, or trapped in a miserable sexless marriage or not and looking to do what he needs to do in order to stay married and stay sane, which sexlessness and miserable you won't be able to verify. You would have to trust that he's telling the truth and then make your moral calculations about whether you want to participate in an affair, whether you want to help him be a cheating piece of shit doing what he needs to do in order to stay married and stay sane. But on the off chance you don't hear it directly from him, on the off chance that even if the invitation to dinner was sincere, there's no statement of interest, that he doesn't make a move, that he doesn't tell you. If you really want to know, you might have to ask. And I got to say, TikTok lady 52, 48, you've carried a torch for this guy since you were teenagers, since you were in high school. If not now, when? And you were at a Shiva when you reconnected. If nothing else, that would put you in touch with some sense of your mortality and the sands falling through the hourglass. So ask. Ask him, hey, I'm here at this dinner with you and thank you very much for the invitation because I've always had a thing for you. Is your marriage open? Don't ask whether it's happy or not. Don't open the door to inviting him to possibly cheat on you if he's miserable. Ask if his marriage is open and then tell him if it is. You would like to finally, after all these decades, open your legs for him. All Right. Time for listener feedback. First up, a few comments. Listeners left in the comment thread about last week's show says eh, I'm lost. The lady dating the guy with the smallish penis should find a new dude, but the dudes who dislike the non standard labia of another caller are jerks. Is this internally inconsistent or is there nuance here that I'm missing? Red Blonde responded to eh, it's the mean comments about someone's genitalia that are the difference. Anyone can have sex with someone and decide that it's not something they want to repeat, but it is rude to say why a simple no thanks or I don't think it's gonna work. Best of luck is enough. You know I always say leave them in better shape than you found them and telling someone on the way out that their dick is too small or their labia are too large. Yeah, that will definitely leave them in worse shape than you found them. Just say, hey, I don't think we're a match. That's enough. Says eganwert. I have mixed feelings about Dan's micro cheating rant. First of all, I totally agree that the idea that if you are in love you will never really want to fuck someone else needs to be shot into the sun. I also agree that a stray Instagram like or lingering glance should be rounded down to nothing. However, I think Dan goes too far in saying only cheating is cheating, especially in the context of a long term relationship. Both people should be able to call into question their partner's behavior, especially if it makes them uncomfortable. I spent a lot of time in the year or so leading up to my wife consummating her affair, trying to put my finger on what exactly was wrong with her behavior and minimizing my feelings instead of trying to express my discomfort. I'm sorry you got cheated on Egan Wirt, and you make a great point. People, people and couples should be able to talk with their partners about the things they might be doing that are making them uncomfortable. But we can acknowledge something is making us uncomfortable without rounding it all the way up to infidelity. There's also great advice in the comment thread from Ruby for a caller who is wondering how she and her boyfriend could work up to anal. In Ruby's experience, there's no reason to wait to explore anal pleasure. Not penetration, but stimulation. You can explore stimulation and pleasure right away. It is a great comment. It is too long for me to share here, but worth diving into the thread to read if you are thinking about giving anal a try. All right. Got something you want to say about something I said on this week's show? You can call us and leave us a message, but only a tiny percentage of calls. Response calls, comment calls make it onto the show. If you really want to make sure your comment gets seen and ready. If you really want to be heard, go to Savage Love and put it in the comment thread. That said, we do love your response calls. We love your comments, however you decide to get them to us. And this week, like every week, Savage Love listeners who left voicemails on our answering machine about last week's show get to have the last word. Ciao, Dan this is a comment to
- [48:26]
Caller
the caller from episode 1011 who asks
- [48:29]
Dan Savage
whether it is possible to come too much. He mentioned coming multiple times in a night, up to four times in 24 hours. Four times in a night? I would say definitely above average. Four times in 24 hours?
- [48:42]
Caller
Average perhaps.
- [48:44]
Dan Savage
However, I would like to mention that in the book the Other the Uncensored oral history of the Porn Film industry, in the chapter entitled Plato's Retreat, it is described how Larry Levinson, owner of the Plato's Retreat on Fifth Avenue, bet that he could come 15 times in a day. He won that bet in front of witnesses. Not only that, but apparently he started warming up for the event. So yeah, 15 times in a day. That's impressive.
- [49:16]
Caller
Hey Dan, this is in regard to all of the PUD women's memoirs you've been speaking about in the past couple of episodes. I am here to say that not every woman in an open marriage started out as a pud. In my case, our marriage opened eight years ago at my husband's request, but it was for me, not him. He knew that I needed some outside experiences that we had been fantasizing about since basically the beginning of our relationship and encouraged me to follow my fantasies. And so now, eight years later, I have several friends with benefits in my life, a wonderful outside partner, and in addition to that, we attend events and clubs and have a great time together. My husband is still the star of my show every single day. We have two wonderful kids, been married for 20 years, and everything gets better, not worse. So I'm here to say that not every open marriage starts because the guy is looking to get his rocks off and the woman dragged along for the journey. Thank God my husband saw in me what I would not have admitted to myself, and I'm so grateful.
- [50:38]
Dan Savage
Hi Dan, I wanted to offer some reassurance to the caller who was worried he would never find a dominant femme to love and to dominate him. And I wanted to share that. Yes, yes. Sometimes femmes have never had the opportunity to be in charge. Sometimes they may think they're interested in it. But you know, it can be intimidating
- [51:04]
Caller
to be the one setting the scene
- [51:06]
Dan Savage
if you're not certain that the person that you're with really likes what's happening. But then if you meet a boy
- [51:14]
Caller
who is very cute and who really
- [51:17]
Dan Savage
wants it, you really start to notice how fun it is, the way he reacts when you touch him, when you play with his mind and with his body. And you start to go, huh? And we are going to leave it there. Got a sex problem? Got a relationship problem? Got a comment? Go to Savage Love Askdan to record and upload your question or your comment directly onto our website. Or you can make a voice memo on your very own phone and email it to us at Qavage Love. Or you can call us at 206-30-2064 and leave us a message on our answering machine. And hey, if you tried something new and you want to share all the dirty details with me and my listeners, send us an email at Qavage Love. Tell us what you tried and you might be our next guest on After Action Report. The Hump Spring Tour. This is our 21st season season 21 years of bringing you the best and most creative, short and smutty films in the world. The Humpspring Tour screens in Montreal, Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C. oakland, Long Beach, Bellingham and Fort Lauderdale this weekend. We've also added shows later this spring in Ithaca, New York Palm Springs, California and Provincetown, Massachusetts. You can watch the trailer for the new show right now and order tickets to a screen screening near you@humpfilmfest.com follow me at blueskyansavage. Follow me on Instagram at dansavage. Follow Christine Emba on Twitter hristinemba. Check out her columns in the New York Times and her newsletter, the Editrix, is available on Substack. The Savage Lovecast is produced every week by Nancy Hartunian and me and Nancy and the tech savvy at risk youth. We will all be back at you next week on installment of the Savage Love Cast that thank you for downloading. And remember, maga gays don't breed them, don't feed them.
- [53:17]
Caller
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters, but when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Granger gets it.
- [53:26]
Dan Savage
And no, there's no time for managing
- [53:27]
Caller
multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can
- [53:35]
Dan Savage
keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly.
- [53:39]
Caller
Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop
- [53:42]
Dan Savage
by Grainger for the ones who get it done.