Factory Tour | 7

Summary

Scam Factory: Factory Tour | Episode 7 - Detailed Summary

Release Date: March 19, 2025
Host: Wondery

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Introduction to the Episode

In "Factory Tour | Episode 7" of the Scam Factory series, Wondery's investigative reporter Denise Chan delves deeper into the intricate and harrowing world of scam factories. Joined by Sarah Hagie and Sachi Kol, the episode unpacks the complex dynamics within these operations, focusing on the moral dilemmas faced by those trapped inside and the elaborate methods scammers use to deceive their victims.

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Unveiling the Scam Factory Operations

Discovering the Truth Behind Scam Messages

Denise Chan begins by sharing her personal experience with scam texts, highlighting how dismissing these messages is a common reaction until one uncovers the truth behind them. She recounts her investigative journey alongside Thai reporter Vejica Duong Di, which led them to Colonel Matalang and the discovery of former scam victims Max and Jane.

"[00:08] Denise Chan: I just kind of wrote them off. Then I found out who was actually behind them, and my mind was totally blown."

Denise reveals the pivotal role of Charlie, Max's sister, who initially aided in their escape and later became a crucial figure in uncovering the scam factory's operations. Charlie's involvement extends to recruiting other women and aiding in the exfiltration of victims, intertwining her fate with that of the scam syndicate.

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The Human Element: Scammers as Victims

Changing Perspectives on Scammers

Sarah Hagie and Sachi Kol reflect on their experiences covering scams on their own show, Scamfluencers. They express their astonishment at the scale and sophistication of the scam factory operations uncovered by Denise.

"[01:02] Sachi Kol: I get scam texts like this all the time and I don't think about them twice. But to learn about the whole cycle of harm behind that and that the bigger victim is likely the person who's texting me, I was really shocked."

Denise emphasizes the narrative shift from viewing scammers purely as perpetrators to recognizing them as victims coerced into fraudulent activities against their will.

"[03:08] Denise Chan: When I heard that these scammers were actual victims, that was very, very shocking to me."

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Methodologies of Deception

Sophisticated Scamming Techniques

Denise elaborates on the highly organized and manipulative tactics employed by scam factories to ensnare victims. She describes the use of pre-written scripts, emotional manipulation, and meticulously curated catfishing profiles designed to build trust and exploit emotional vulnerabilities.

"[08:18] Denise Chan: They've got a script. They've been trained to ask the right questions, say the right things to make them smile, seem real."
"[09:44] Sarah Hagie: Knowing personal details about someone's life to know exactly how to target them. How are they finding out if you know someone is wealthy or if someone's lonely?"

Denise highlights the extensive research scammers conduct on potential victims, utilizing information gleaned from social media and professional platforms like LinkedIn to tailor their approaches.

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Character Focus: Charlie's Complex Role

Navigating Loyalty and Coercion

Charlie emerges as a multifaceted character whose loyalty to her family both traps her and drives her actions. Denise describes her internal conflict between protecting her brothers and being coerced into recruiting others for the scam factory.

"[13:31] Denise Chan: I see a sister who really loves her brothers and her family and would do anything for them."

The episode delves into Charlie's motivations, exploring how her initial attempt to rescue her brother inadvertently binds her further into the scam network. Her relationship with Colonel Matalang illustrates a fragile alliance built on mutual trust and the shared goal of dismantling the scam operations.

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Rescue and Repatriation Efforts

Recent Developments and Ongoing Challenges

Denise provides updates on the situation following the release of the series, highlighting significant efforts to rescue and repatriate individuals from scam compounds. She mentions the rescue of 7,000 people from Myanmar-based compounds and ongoing efforts to assist 180 Filipinos specifically from the KK Park facility.

"[21:28] Denise Chan: There was a Chinese actor who was tricked into a compound in Myanmar... 7,000 people were freed from a number of scam compounds in Myanmar, including KK park."

Despite these breakthroughs, Denise cautions that scam operations continue to proliferate globally, with new compounds emerging in regions like the Middle East, South America, and Africa. The persistent nature of these scams underscores the complexity of eradicating such deeply entrenched networks.

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The Aftermath: Emotional and Psychological Impact

Trauma and Recovery

The episode poignantly addresses the lasting emotional scars endured by those who escaped the scam factory. Denise shares insights into the psychological toll, noting how recounting their experiences remains painful for survivors.

"[26:26] Denise Chan: For someone like Yuki or Jane, even when they were telling me their story, you know, you could hear how painful it is to recount scamming someone... it sticks around for a while."

Charlie, despite her efforts to rebuild her life, continues to grapple with paranoia and guilt, fearing that she might inadvertently fall back into scamming behaviors. The narrative underscores the profound human cost of such deceptive operations.

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Call to Action and Awareness

Educating the Public to Prevent Victimization

Denise concludes with a heartfelt appeal for awareness and vigilance. She urges listeners to verify unsolicited communications and be skeptical of overly friendly or persistently engaging strangers online.

"[27:38] Denise Chan: My hope in telling this story is just to have everyone realize how interconnected we all are... We should care."

By shedding light on the interconnectedness of these scams and their global impact, Denise emphasizes the collective responsibility to combat and prevent such fraudulent activities.

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Conclusion

"Factory Tour | Episode 7" of Scam Factory serves as a compelling exploration of the human stories behind sophisticated scam operations. Through Denise Chan's investigative reporting and the thoughtful discussions with Sarah Hagie and Sachi Kol, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the moral complexities, emotional struggles, and ongoing battles against global scam networks. The episode not only uncovers the dark realities of scam factories but also inspires a call to action for greater awareness and collective effort to prevent future victimization.

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Notable Quotes:

• "[03:08] Denise Chan: When I heard that these scammers were actual victims, that was very, very shocking to me."
• "[08:18] Denise Chan: They've got a script. They've been trained to ask the right questions, say the right things to make them smile, seem real."
• "[13:31] Denise Chan: I see a sister who really loves her brothers and her family and would do anything for them."
• "[26:26] Denise Chan: For someone like Yuki or Jane, even when they were telling me their story, you know, you could hear how painful it is to recount scamming someone."
• "[27:38] Denise Chan: My hope in telling this story is just to have everyone realize how interconnected we all are... We should care."

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Further Listening

To explore the full depth of these stories and gain more insights into the inner workings of scam factories, listeners are encouraged to binge the entire Scam Factory series ad-free on Wondery+ via the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial at www.wondery.com/links/scam-factory/ now.

Transcript

[Denise Chan]

Wondery subscribers can binge all episodes of Scam Factory ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Sarah Hagie]

Wondery.

[Sachi Kol]

From Wondery. This is a special episode of Scam Factory. I'm Sachi Kol, one of the hosts of another wondry show, Scamfluencers.

[Sarah Hagie]

And I'm Sarah Hagie, the other host of Scamflancers. In our show, we tell stories of insidious scammers and con artists who use charm, charisma, influence to sell a beautiful promise, all for personal profit.

[Sachi Kol]

Which is actually pretty similar to the charm offensive that scammers within the Scam Factory use to lure in their victims.

[Sarah Hagie]

Yeah, I mean, when I listened to this story, I was shocked. They had these pre written scripts, they had well timed emotional manipulation tactics, these carefully curated catfishing photos. It was just so crazy, right?

[Sachi Kol]

And we've covered a lot of stories of scammers on our show, but I didn't expect a scam at this scale.

[Sarah Hagie]

I get scam texts like this all the time and I don't think about them twice. But to learn about the whole cycle of harm behind that and that the bigger victim is likely the person who's texting me, I was really shocked.

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah, this series has really changed my perspective on these scammers. Which is why we're both so excited to have a conversation with Denise Chan, the reporter and host of Scam Factory, to talk about how she found this crazy story, what else she learned reporting on these sophisticated scams, and and what these characters have been doing since leaving the Scam Factory. Hi, Janice. It's so good to be with you today.

[Denise Chan]

I'm so glad to be here.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay, so we're just gonna start with the obvious. How did you find this story?

[Denise Chan]

Look, I'm like everyone else. I get all these scam texts, as I'm sure both of you do, and I just kind of wrote them off. Then I found out who was actually behind them, and my mind was totally blown. And I knew I wanted to find someone to talk to who'd been inside these compounds. So I was working with a reporter from Thailand. Her name is Vejica Duong Di. And we'd actually heard from Colonel Matalang, who's in the series, that there were two people who had just come out of the compound, literally like two or three days prior, and that was actually Max and Jane. And so when we did that interview, we noticed that Max was sitting there, and while he was talking to Vejtra, he kept looking at a woman during the interview, and when we turned the recorder off, we found out that woman was Charlie, his sister, who helped him and Jane get out. And we found out that Charlie actually played a huge role in getting him there. And my. My dog was on the floor when I learned, you know, how she played. Not only played that role, but then she agreed to work for Dev, and then she recruited five other women, and then her other brother went. And, I mean, the story just kept getting wilder and wilder the more we dug into it. And at the center of it all, tying it all together, was Charlie.

[Sachi Kol]

Well, we have a lot of questions about Charlie, but before we get into it, I'm curious why you wanted to explore the scammer side of these calls. I think they're usually really dominated by stories around, like, how consumers are impacted and what it means and what happens to us. But no one's always thinking about, like, who's doing this and why.

[Denise Chan]

I think that's really true. When I heard that these scammers were actual victims, like, that was very, very shocking to me. And I knew a lot of listeners would have the same reaction that I did because it totally flips the narrative of who we think these people are. I really wanted to explore this question of, would you hurt people you don't know in order to save yourself or someone you love? Everyone in the scam factory is faced with that question. But I also feel like it's a question that universally, no matter where you're from, you can understand it. And it brings up a very personal moral dilemma. What would you do in that situation? So that was really interesting for me.

[Sachi Kol]

I would imagine verifying these stories was probably really hard because people get nervous. They're really anxious about sharing information. But you're also talking about a story that's about scams, people who scam, and people who are lying. So how do you determine who to trust, what to trust, and how do you know where to put your faith in what is, like, undeniably true in this story?

[Denise Chan]

I have to be honest. At one point, I thought I was being scammed, because some of the things that I was hearing were just so wild. It just sounds unbelievable. And sometimes they'd be so specific that I thought it felt unreal, the fact that there was a boba shop in these micro cities. And I didn't believe it until I saw Menu. You know, I heard about a luxury shop being built and selling designer bags. There are employers throwing pizza parties. Then I heard about another source who was playing with a. Like a baby bear, like A cub inside the compound. And it's just like, you hear these things thrown at you, and you're like, what? Is this for real? And then, of course, you hear things about how this company is set up. Like there is an HR department, an entire department that's just mining data. Then there's another department just like marketing, finding pictures and putting together scripts for you. And it feels fake, and it's hard to find the evidence. You know, everyone inside the compound is monitored. Their phones are monitored, their computers are monitored, so they really can't send photos and documents out. And even recruiters, when they're recruiting people, they are using platforms like Telegram, so they can just easily wipe communications. We also really lucked out with someone like Charlie who would have photos and documents being shared from the inside. So, like, Max would send her videos, send her texts and photos, and because she was on the outside, she could save them. So because of that, we were able to verify a lot of things through those images and through those documents.

[Sachi Kol]

Did you go to a recruiting lunch or any of the recruiting groups?

[Denise Chan]

No, I didn't go to any recruitment lunches, but I would have just. I would have wanted to. To see how they make. No such thing as a free lunch.

[Sachi Kol]

But may as well find out.

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, I did end up learning about some weird groups, though. Okay, so there's like this. It's a telegram group where all the scam bosses actually are in a group chat sharing scripts and training documents with one another as to how to scam. And I had a source who somehow was inside one of these groups and so was sending me these. These documents. Things like how to target victims on Facebook, how to use LinkedIn to develop foreign customers, how to set up a Tinder profile. And you look at these documents and they're like training docs at a startup with screenshots. It's like, click here, then do this, say this. And then there'd be tips like how to make conversation, how do you expand on certain topics, how do you keep the conversation going so the customer knows you're interested? You know, you can think of it sort of like if you are a marketing professional and you're in like a professional group with a bunch of marketers and you're just like, knowledge sharing. That's exactly what these groups. These groups were.

[Sarah Hagie]

Oh, my God, I'm getting a scam call right now.

[Sachi Kol]

Are you really so funny?

[Sarah Hagie]

Yeah, I just had to decline it.

[Sachi Kol]

Actually.

[Sarah Hagie]

I do want to talk a little bit more about these scams because I feel like most of us Know enough to see a weird link and identify it immediately, like, this is a scam. So we ignore them. And I feel like it gives people the sense that these scams are too silly to actually work.

[Sachi Kol]

But.

[Sarah Hagie]

But as you found out, they really do. These companies bring in billions of dollars worldwide. So could you just walk us through why and how do these scams work?

[Denise Chan]

You know, a lot of these. The people who fall for these scams, like, they're very smart individuals. And. And I think that happens because they're really believable on the other end.

[Sarah Hagie]

They.

[Denise Chan]

They've got a script. They've been trained to ask the right questions, say the right things to make them smile, seem real. And they're trained to know what emotional buttons to push and what motivates whoever's on the other line to respond or to do what they want them to do. There was one source that I spoke with who had gotten out of the compound, and he was telling me they have a scam for everyone. So if they find out you are someone who is interested in making more money and you have a lot of money, then they'll try to lure you in with an investment scheme. If you don't have any money, they'll try to lure you in with an opportunity to make money or create a scheme to pretend to lend you money. Or if you have money but aren't interested in investments, maybe they'll create some sort of sob story to have you give them money. Like, oh, my mom is in the hospital and I need help. And they're really good at sending texts that make them seem really authentic. You know, they'll send photos of their meals and be like, have you eaten yet? This is what I just had for lunch. Or, like, sending voice notes that are just like, just checking in. So really, when I hear about people who fall for it, I understand, because they feel like real people on the other end.

[Sarah Hagie]

You know, mentioning these people, knowing personal details about someone's life to know exactly how to target them. How are they finding out if you know someone is wealthy or if someone's lonely? There's so many of these personal details that I would love to know how they know.

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. It's almost like the first stage of the scam is always research, which is like, you find somebody and you're looking for context clues to know what kind of person they are. A lot of times they're looking for older people who might have a higher net worth. They'll look at your LinkedIn contacts, they'll look at the pictures that you post. Are you posting about nice places that you travel to? Are you posting about your bags, things like that, any signals to show how much money you might have. And then they start to chat with you. And part of the chatting process in the beginning is really just to get as much information as possible. One individual I spoke to who actually fell for a LinkedIn scam, the way that the person, the scammer started talking to him was saying, hey, I went to the same school as you, or I know somebody who worked at the same company as you. So, like, they start to build trust in that way where it's like, oh, they're probably running in the same circles as me. And so therefore, like, I. I can trust them. And so, like, the entire time they're talking to you, it's all to fish this type of personalized information so that they can really tailor whatever scam they're gonna do to hook you in that way.

[Sarah Hagie]

Wow, I. That's. I feel like people don't know that they're researching you as a real person and not just getting someone's number. That's crazy.

[Denise Chan]

Yeah. It makes you think a little bit about how much information we just kind of casually put on the Internet. You know, it's all fun and games to put our travel or the things we like on Instagram, but all of that gives clues to who. Who you are, what would make you respond, what your interests are. So really, my advice is to just be skeptical and try and verify things. If there's a stranger reaching out to you on text message, if they're sliding into your DMs on LinkedIn, they claim to know someone or they claim to be from your alma mater, try to check it out, try and verify things before engaging in conversation. You know, sometimes people will reach out from a certain company, double check the email address, make sure it's actually real. If in actual doubt, try calling the company just to double check if it's real. And another big red flag is if you're in a conversation with someone and they're asking you to set up some sort of crypto account, that's super fishy no matter what context it's coming from. So just have that in the back of your mind. And the other thing I think is just to spread awareness, let everybody know that these scams are happening. And these are some of the tactics. I think that if more people are aware that this is a possibility that they could fall victim to, then more people will stay vigilant.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay, so at the center of the story is Charlie. And on Scamflancers, we cover people who are often just straight up awful. But we do have a lot of stories where we can kind of sympathize with a person becoming a scammer, which I think is where Charlie lands. She's a victim. She got scammed. Her brother is in danger. She keeps digging the hole she's in deeper and deeper, but at the end of the day, she commits real crimes in order to get what she wants. So I'm curious how you navigated having such a complicated main character. Did your understanding of Charlie change from the first meeting over the course of reporting the story? I feel like your feelings must have changed as you were working on this.

[Denise Chan]

It really was kind of a rollercoaster. I mean, I mean, obviously, even from the beginning, we thought she was just Max's sister who helped to rescue her brother and then to learn the full scope of her involvement in getting Max there in the first. And then her other brother, Josh, then all these others as well. Which is why it makes her one of the most complex sources that I've ever worked with. You know, it's hard because I don't know if I would have made the same decisions that she made. So for me, it was really critical to try and figure out what that motivation was and to pin down the truth of all of it. That was one of the reasons why Vejitra and I flew across the world to meet her in person and to sit down and speak with her extensively for hours, to really build trust on both ends. And ultimately, I think of Charlie as someone painstakingly human. Uh, I see a sister who really loves her brothers and her family and would do anything for them. I see a woman who was a hustler, a smart individual who thought she could potentially figure a way out on her own by maybe outsmarting Dev. I think of her as someone who has made mistakes and sacrificed others for her own gain, but has also tried really hard to make up for it. You know, like everyone in the scam factory, she had to make some really hard choices, and she's going to have to live with the consequences of all of her choices as a result of it.

[Sarah Hagie]

Wow. I mean, I guess I'm wondering what you think the reason was for Charlie to agree to work with Dev and the syndicate instead of, you know, just going to law enforcement at the very beginning of finding everything out, this was.

[Denise Chan]

A question that we grappled with a lot because it's really the first Choice that sort of makes everything go haywire. You know, Charlie has said she didn't go to law enforcement because she didn't think local authorities in the Philippines could actually do anything for her brother. He was trapped in this whole other country with a completely different jurisdiction. And so Charlie figured she could solve the problem herself. But as we all know, that wasn't the case.

[Sachi Kol]

So the way that Charlie eventually finds herself out of this trap is through a man named Colonel. And he starts off skeptical of her involvement with the Syndicate, but eventually he changes his mind. So what do you think it was about Charlie that made him feel like he could actually trust her?

[Denise Chan]

You know, Colonel Matalong has done this for a while, and he has a pretty good sense of people. He has his own sort of tips and tricks for figuring out if someone's lying or not. And I had asked Colonel many times about what made him trust Charlie. It seems like ultimately there was a level of mutual trust between the two of them once Charlie started handing over information and giving a full account. In actuality, Charlie really had a lot to lose if she didn't tell the truth. Right. Her brothers were in there. She could be in really deep trouble with the law, and she was at the whim of Dev. So I think at the point in which Charlie began trusting Colonel and telling him everything, he also did the same.

[Sarah Hagie]

One of the things that did really hit me was the idea of feeling so much shame to be a part of a scam and to be scammed. And it's something that we see a lot on our show. And in episode six, you know, Jane said she hadn't told her siblings where she'd been for more than a month after getting out of the scam factory, which was so sad.

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, it broke my heart the first time I heard it. But, yeah, that's the thing. Just family obligation just plays such a huge role in this story. I mean, with many of our characters, family is the reason they took the job in the first place. Right. To provide for them. And then there's this additional element of, oh, I got a great opportunity. Let me bring my brother, let me bring my cousin, let me bring my friend, too. So family is both a motivator in getting the workers in, and then also this network to bring in even more workers. And then you add in this family obligation part of it. So, like, you know, Jane, Charlie, Jella, they get inside and they feel ashamed that they've landed themselves in this situation. They feel so guilty that they don't want to burden their family with the stress of trying to get themselves out, so they just shoulder it all themselves. I think the scam factory relies on that to keep their workers staying put, to keep them from reaching out for help, because they don't want to drag their family into this even further. This is what we saw with Jala. Even when she heard the possibility of being able to get out of there if her family paid that $4,000 ransom, she was still hesitant because she didn't want her family to have to give up their hard earned money to these people. So in that way, that's what makes the scam factory so insidious. They're preying on these very human relationships and exploiting it to create the foundation for their workforce. So they use family to recruit, they use family to control, and they use family to extort.

[Sarah Hagie]

Wow.

[Sachi Kol]

So we're talking a lot about family obligation. And I was really shocked when Josh agrees to go into the compound after Max, even after he learns about what the circumstances are. Why does Josh go in?

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, I never had a chance to speak with Josh directly, so, I mean, I couldn't hear it from him. But from the time I spent talking with Charlie and Max, it's really clear that these siblings are. They care really deeply about each other. They love each other. So I do think that when Charlie tells Josh what has happened to Max, and Josh being as close in age with Max and being so protective, he was naturally going to spring into action. And he sees that Charlie is. Her hands are bound. And so Josh thinks this is the way he can help. I mean, if you look at the situation objectively, it's very natural to think, wait, how is this actually going to help? How can Josh actually protect Max? But I think if you zoom out and look at the circumstances, Max at the point hadn't been hurt. Right. So he. He didn't like his job. Yes, he was scamming. And he also wasn't making a grand a month, but he was making a couple hundred bucks, which was still money. And plus, he was, like, physically okay, just depressed by the whole situation. So I think he really believed that if he could just suck it up for a year and his contract would end, he'd be able to get out. And so on Josh's end, when Josh sees Max in this situation, he figured, hey, he could at least keep his brother company and then they could both make a little bit of money and ride it out together. And if anything went sideways, Josh could be by his brother's side. But as months went on, the emotional toll of Scamming people really wore both of them out.

[Sachi Kol]

It just seems like everything is set up to be the perfect circumstance for Dev to take advantage of these people. Like, he can use Charlie's brother and then her brothers as leverage to keep Charlie doing what he wants. It's so evil.

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, 100%. It seems like Dev always wanted Charlie, and locking Max in was the first step in doing that. And then Josh going in just gave him even more leverage. It's a totally sinister trap.

[Sarah Hagie]

So learning about the scale of these scam compounds and after hearing about, you know, this very harrowing ordeal everyone in the series had to go through just to get out, I think we're really curious to know where are things now since reporting the story and what are the updates you're learning about the whole operation?

[Denise Chan]

There's recently been this sort of renewed attention on these compounds because there was a Chinese actor who was tricked into a compound in Myanmar. He thought he was going for a casting call in Bangkok and then ended up in Myanmar in one of these compounds scamming. And that actually put the compounds in Myanmar back on the map with the renewed attention. And so a lot of people in Asia were getting really scared and paranoid. And just to like, illustrate how scared people were, there was a concert for this famous Hong Kong pop star, E. Chan, that was supposed to happen in Bangkok, and he canceled his concert because he was scared that his concert goers might be abducted. So, I mean, with all of that renewed attention, there's been a lot of pressure on countries like China and Thailand to do something about it, because the compounds have just kind of grown out of control in these last few years. So it's actually been a very timely release for Scam Factory because at the end of February, it was reported that 7,000 people were freed from a number of scam compounds in Myanmar, including KK park, which is the compound that Jella was at. So these people are now waiting to be sent back home. And Colonel Matalong recently told me that there's about 180 Filipinos from KK park that he's specifically helping to repatriate back to the Philippines.

[Sarah Hagie]

I mean, that's incredible. Like, is this just kind of the first big step for them to be eradicated?

[Denise Chan]

It is exciting progress, and it shows an attempt to really crack down. But at the same time, there are so many compounds along the border of Myanmar and Thailand and still thousands who are trapped, not to mention that there are compounds popping up every single day. So nowadays it's not just in Southeast Asia. They're being built in the Middle east and South America and Africa. So it all sort of feels like a game of Whack a mole, where we'll hear news about people being rescued, but then news about compounds being built in Dubai. So in that sense, I don't know how much closer they are to totally eradicating the scam industry. For us. In the US though, you know, it's also been challenging to educate the public on scams so citizens don't fall for them, mainly because they just keep changing. The other day, the FTC just released a warning about those texts saying you need to pay a toll. Which everyone, that's a scam. Unless you really do need to pay a toll.

[Sachi Kol]

It's a scam, unless it' but yeah.

[Denise Chan]

Honestly, it always feels like we're like one step behind these scammers. But it's also been a little bit alarming, you know, with the, the recent headlines of the new Department of Government Efficiency. Doge having access to millions of Americans private information. Like, it's essentially a huge data leak. Like, if that information got out and the scam compounds got a hold of it, it's just a bunch of people that they're going to be able to target and they're going to be able to target and scam a lot more people. So that's kind of scary and alarming.

[Sachi Kol]

There are a lot of horrific endings in this story, including about Doge. But one of the scariest ones is the revelation that Charlie's identity is still being used by other recruiters. I need to know how Charlie is doing now.

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, I mean, I was horrified when she told me about that. It really felt like she could never escape these people. As far as I know, she knows. I think these women are still out there recruiting know if they're still using her identity. But she has told Colonel about it, so at least law enforcement is aware. But from the time I spent interviewing Charlie for this series, she told me she was doing well, she had a new job and she was just trying to move on.

[Sachi Kol]

So are Charlie and Colonel still working together?

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, both Charlie and Colonel have told me that they keep in touch. Charlie was still hearing from people inside the compound, and so whenever anyone wanted to leave, she'd connect them with Colonel. So they're still working together in that aspect.

[Sarah Hagie]

I mean, another huge question is where are the siblings? Like, how are they doing after all of this?

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, so Charlie told me that Max and Josh are doing well. They finally did reunite. Her and Josh did make up and they're talking again. She also told me that Max and Josh's partners are expecting, so Charlie is going into auntie mode, and she's very happy about the new additions to their family.

[Sarah Hagie]

I feel like this whole ordeal must be so hard to kind of get through emotionally. And from what you witnessed, what would you say are the lasting effects of the scam factory, of all these individuals who escaped, you know, this trauma, this very traumatic experience that they all faced? And I'm sure it's hard to live a normal life after that.

[Denise Chan]

I think for almost everyone, you know, they really are trying to move on with their lives. I think in a way, there's really no choice but to move on. You have to. But at the same time, I think, you know, for someone like Yuki or Jane, even when they were telling me their story, you know, you could hear how painful it is to recount scamming someone. Like with Yuki, the pain in her voice when she talks about scamming that university student. It's something I'm not sure will leave them. It feels like it sticks around for a while, even for Charlie. You know, the whole experience has really kind of traumatized her. She told me that when she was applying for new jobs, she was paranoid that she might end up scamming people. So I think there's also that level of paranoia, naturally, for anyone who gets out of that scam factory.

[Sarah Hagie]

You know, you spent so much time working on the story. What do you hope your audience will take away from this? You know, as a listener, I kind of want to know what I can do to help stop this. And are you now, like, a resident scam narc trying to protect everyone you know?

[Denise Chan]

Yeah, I want to tell everyone this is happening, so don't fall for it. But no, really, you know, my hope in telling this story to begin with is just to have everyone realize how interconnected we all are. Like, it's a story that happens halfway across the world. But what happens over there has everything to do with us over here. So, you know, we. We should care. There's a direct line from the suffering there to the suffering of individuals here. We are all impacted by this very big and growing scam issue. So we all should care about this.

[Sarah Hagie]

I think that is a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much for joining us, Denise. It has been such a pleasure chatting with you, and I'm so excited for everyone to listen to this.

[Denise Chan]

Thank you. Sarah and Sachi, the pleasure is all mine. It has been such a joy chatting with you both. Thank you all for listening to the series. If you like Scam Factory, you can binge all episodes ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey if you have a tip about a story you think we should investigate, please write to [e-mail] tips.

[Sarah Hagie]

This bonus episode of Scam Factory is hosted by me.

[Sachi Kol]

Sarah Haggie and me, Sachi Kol.

[Sarah Hagie]

Senior producer is Claire Chambers Associate producer is Evangeline Barros Sound design by Jay.

[Sachi Kol]

Rothman Sound supervisor is Marcelino Vilpando Theme.

[Sarah Hagie]

Song by Tangeline Bolton Music supervisor is.

[Sachi Kol]

Scott Velasquez for Freeze on Sync.

[Sarah Hagie]

Senior managing producer is Lata Pandya Managing.

[Sachi Kol]

Producer is Heather Baloga Fact checking by Jacqueline Coletti Executive producers are Julia Lee Lowery Henderson, George Lavender, Marshall Louie and Jen Sargent for Wondery.

[D]

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[Sachi Kol]

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