← Scam Goddess
Scam Goddess
Dungeons, Dragons, and Demonic Delu-lu w/ Sarah Marshall
01:02:33
Laci welcomes back journalist, writer, and podcaster Sarah Marshall (You’re Wrong About, The Devil You Know). They unpack one of the wildest hoaxes of the Satanic Panic era— the claim that Dungeons & Dragons was a literal gateway to hell. CON-gregation, stay blessed — not possessed! Also, catch Laci's TV Show Scam Goddess, now on Freeform and Hulu! Keep the scams coming and snitch on your friends by emailing us at ScamGoddessPod@gmail.com. CW: @43:24 Mention of Unliving. Follow on Instagram: Scam Goddess Pod: @scamgoddesspod Laci Mosley: @divalaci Sarah Marshall’s You’re Wrong About Pod : @yourewrongaboutpod Research by Kathryn Doyle SOURCES https://medium.com/belover/in-the-1980s-a-woman-spread-a-hoax-that-dungeons-dragons-is-satanic-cb8da5614132 https://app.podscribe.com/episode/140508838?transcriptVersionReqId=46eb5796-f194-4b89-80a5-c951cbe7b00f https://gametree.me/blog/how-many-people-can-play-dnd/ https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/qvnhcp/dd_veterans_of_th...
Loading summary
Transcript289 lines
- [00:00]
A
This episode of Scam Goddess is brought to you by McDonald's. Listen, it's the holiday season. You know, there is always someone trying to ruin it. Trying to step on my McGriddle, which I do not play about. But it turns out the Grinch is taking over McDonald's with a meal full of mischief. Even the fries aren't safe. He hit them with dill pickle Grinch salt. I know that's right. The collectible socks marked Property of the Grinch. I will definitely have a pair of those. And the Grinch meal box wrapped in pure mischief. Oh, the Grinch is a queen. So if you're ready to let the Grinch ruin your season, grab a Grinch meal for yourself before he heads back to Mount Crumpet. Only at McDonald's. At participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last. Let's be real. Great sex starts with the right toys. Funlove.com has you covered with one of the largest selections of adult products online. From vibrant and bondage to lingerie and lube, they've got everything you need to play your way. Shipping is always 100% discreet. No labels, no awkward packaging. And with unbeatable prices, you can indulge without having to break the bank. Even better, our listeners get a 30% off with the code Goddess at checkout funlove.com, low prices, high satisfaction scams cause robbery and Frau Scam, robbery and fraud. What's poppin, congregation? It's your girl. Lacy Mosley, AKA Scam God is back for the podcast all about robbery, fraud and those who practice it. Yes, it is a comedy show. Just like to remind you guys, sometimes cuz y' all be seeing me on TV doing true crime and then when I'm an unserious lady, y' all get a little mad. Y' all get in those comments and do those Apple reviews. If, if you wanna do some activism today, give a black woman five stars. And then you can feel good about yourself. Talk about it at dinner parties. So today I'm super. What? Yes, excited, thrilled, elated to have one of the most fantastic guests that we've ever had on the show. Back again. She's a journalist, a writer, a podcaster, and she's the host of I Know y' all Know this podcast. You're wrong about a podcast where she reconsiders an event, person or phenomenon that's been miscast in the public imagination.
- [02:34]
B
Ugh.
- [02:34]
A
I've learned so many things. And most recently, she just dropped an eight part series where she dives in and explores the tangled web of the satanic panic. Taking you everywhere from Victoria, BC to rural Kentucky on the podcast the Devil you know with Sarah Marshall. That's the podcast the devil you know. Congregation, please welcome back this genius gal, Sarah Marshall to the show. Hi, Sarah.
- [03:02]
B
Hi. I'm so happy to be here. I also have a little cold, so I'm gonna be making some unholy sounds over here. And it's just me. It's not demons.
- [03:11]
A
It's not demons. I feel like that's what they say before. It's demons. It's like it's not demons.
- [03:16]
B
I mean, sometimes when you do one of these shows, you know, you bring something back from the other side.
- [03:22]
A
Yeah, they might be pulling up on you.
- [03:24]
B
Not really in this case.
- [03:26]
A
No.
- [03:26]
B
No, you never know. If you see something behind me that looks like one of those stop motion guys from Ghost, that's the demons.
- [03:32]
A
I am going to pay attention because you were talking about their story, and they might want to have comments. They might have rebuttals. But I'm also a little tired, too, because I'm shooting right now in Ireland. This is the last week here, y'. All. I'm about to be back in the ghetto, AKA America.
- [03:48]
B
But, you know, we're still going on without you as best we can. It's not great.
- [03:54]
A
Oh, goodness gracious. Is so we so down bad? The government is scamming us so hard on every angle in front. That was the one thing I didn't realize about Ireland was like, I got to take off two stressors. People being racist to me, and the stress of being an American floated off my back, and I was like, oh, but, yeah, I'm coming back. I'm coming back to the hood. But, Sarah, we always ask on this show, what is your relationship with scams? Do you love them? Do you hate them? Is there any particular scam right now that you're really interested in? It could literally be anything.
- [04:27]
B
Well, first of all, thank you for coming back to this scary country. And beautiful. I forget what I've said in the past, but I would say right now, I love a harmless scam. And I feel like scams are called scams often by the people who write the laws. And so what qualifies as a scam is very different based on who's in charge. But this is, like, not. I don't think this counts as a scam. But I was watching something recently about lawn chair Larry, you know, the guy who I think in. In the early 80s somewhere in the 80s, connected a bunch of weather balloons to a lawn chair and then flew up into airspace. I don't think that's a scam exactly, but I think that the. Well, speaking of problems in flight traffic control, that's someone using some simple technology to end up in a place that they weren't supposed to be. I don't know. Well, and then let me make a clumsy satanic panic connection, if I may, which is that one of the really compelling things about the Satanic Panic is that these were. We had a lot of cases with basically no actual evidence, certainly no physical evidence, but that many of which still made it to trial and some of which made it to ruining actual lives via either securing a conviction or just you can end up stuck in the legal process in a way that even if you're acquitted later, it still pretty much.
- [05:54]
A
It's always gonna mark you. And if you had to go to prison while you waited or jail while you waited, you know, like, that whole situation is gonna traumatize you. Like, you're not gonna come out the same. Our jails aren't about rehabilitation. It's slavery.
- [06:07]
B
Right. Yeah. You're gonna make some nice picnic tables for the people of the rest areas at best. And I guess I'm gonna try and maybe say this at the start and then see at the end, if you buy it, that the Satanic Panic is one of the greatest scams in American legal history because it involved basically exploiting the weaknesses in our legal system, among other things, by just kind of throwing the idea of the devil around. And a lot of those weaknesses we haven't really attempted to patch up since they were revealed by these cases. And so I think the Satanic Panic is not one of the fun scams of history, but it is. I do think it is one and was one even for people who are. Who believed it. Because then there's a question of, certainly, if you're in an mlm, are you both a scammer and a scammy? And does that work with conspiracy theories, too, where you're kind of selling a story at a certain point? So, yeah, those are the muddled thoughts of this lady.
- [07:08]
A
And I mean, Satanic panic being a scam definitely registers with me. And the way the scam works so well is because there's such great branding. Because if we were called, like, the devil, like, the word devil is just chef's kiss. It's just scary. It's like, because if we called him, like, The Boogeyman or Mr. Fire Monster, he wouldn't be as serious to us. But the devil, that just sounds.
- [07:31]
B
He's a Krampus. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:33]
A
Krampus. Yeah. Krampus don't hit. Krampus don't hit like that.
- [07:36]
B
No. Well, and also it's like. And I, I don't believe in the devil at all. Like, I was raised very secularly, and so I kind of. I'm like, I would believe in God way before I would believe in the devil. And so I guess it's always felt very academic to me. But as a, as a concept, like if it's. If you give me a devil's food cake or a horror movie with devil.
- [07:57]
A
In the title or just deviled eggs.
- [08:00]
B
Yeah, a deviled egg. That's so much better than a regular hard boiled egg. It is just good branding.
- [08:05]
A
It's extremely good branding. And I, I do agree with you. I don't believe in the devil. I do hold some belief in God because I'm a betting man. And what's hard, what's the harm in believing? Now, the Bible, that book that the man wrote, the book that the men wrote, I'm a little skeptical, but. But, you know, like, why not believe in a higher power? And if I get up there, you know, I was with Krishna, I was with God, I was with, you know, if you want to call him Allah, I'm do Allah. Like, like I'm just trying to be in the clear, you know, so I'm doing whatever. And if it's not, then what harm was it? Because I didn't use it to harm people, which is what America loves to do.
- [08:44]
B
Right? We see everything as like, how can this be made into a weapon? We'll figure it out. Just give us.
- [08:49]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll figure it out. Chewing gum. No, no, no, no. Give me enough of it. I can choke somebody to death.
- [08:54]
B
Like, what are we doing, MacGyver, something here?
- [08:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the bigger scams, and I try not to get too political on this podcast, but at the time that we're recording this, like, the government shutdown is about to end. And one of the biggest scams to me is that Democrats, like old corporate Democrats who, whose like big corporations have their hands in their pockets just like they have them in Republican pockets. We're seeing them sell us out and try to sell us hope and change. And it's like, baby, we out here, we see these prices, we watching these videos of Ice out wreaking havoc. And they were paid during the government shutdown because they're Essential. Also, why can they wear gator masks? Like, can we be for real? If you gonna be trash, let me see your whole face, Mr. Trash Man.
- [09:37]
B
Right?
- [09:38]
A
It's a scam. I'm tired of being. Getting lip service from the people that I voted for. And I really just think. And this might get me put on a. But this is what I'm saying. I'm not saying we use it, but I'm just saying, like, what if we wheeled in a few guillotines just in front of, like, for display in the White House? Just for display to be like, remember, you work for the people.
- [10:03]
B
I love this as an art piece too. What if it's. What if just a nice museum, very close to all these government buildings, just has a big exhibit called the Lost Art of the Guillotine.
- [10:15]
A
Yeah. It's purely artistic. Now, there is a guy who comes and sharpens it on Thursdays, but it is just there as a history piece.
- [10:25]
B
So just as you're voting, maybe you can hear him sharpening his blade and you're like, maybe we don't cut that one. I mean, speaking of fear of scams, right? This idea of like, well, what if. What if we give a free lunch to a kid who doesn't really need it? It's like, well, I'm okay with that.
- [10:41]
A
I'm fine with that.
- [10:42]
B
Yeah.
- [10:43]
A
You think about how much we spend in the military. You think about how much we give away to other countries who are like, we have vested interests in. And it's like, I'm tired of America telling me that we don't have McDonald's money. We definitely have health care money. And they're like, no, broke. We broke. We broke. I'm like, I thought that we. What do you mean?
- [11:02]
B
Right? America is like your white collar dad who goes out, like, spends all his money on Ponzi schemes and then calls you extravagant for wanting, you know, something off the something not on the dollar menu. And it's like, if you hadn't been getting scammed all day, you might just be able to buy the full price nuggets.
- [11:19]
A
And I just want people to remember that it's our money. Like, it's your money at the end of the day, girl. Like, the government is supposed to be here to just like, make infrastructure help, like organize the money so we have the healthcare and the food and the support that the community needs and everybody. I hate that scam of just aspirational billionaires who are in a social class that will never be able to climb up out of and it hurts me, but I don't want to get too deep into that because I will cry.
- [11:47]
B
If we start crying, we'll never stop. And then it'll become, you know, a whole Bronte kind of a thing. We gotta get soldier on.
- [11:53]
A
Exactly. And so we are gonna soldier on. And today, the historic hoodwink ties into Sarah's most current podcast. This spotlights the satanic panic over the game of Dungeon and Dragons, which is funny to me. It's Dungeons and Dragons. I don't know why I took that S off. Cause normally I add a S. Cause I'm black, but.
- [12:11]
B
But I like it. You're. You're doing. That's your royalty free version. Just one dungeon, right?
- [12:17]
A
So they don't sue us. Don't sue us, Mr. Dungeon. I feel like nerds who play. Yeah, I'm gonna call y' all nerds. I'm a nerd too, okay? I. If you know my lore, you know I'm a nerd. But nerds being something that was labeled satanic to me is very funny because these guys are literally doing make em ups.
- [12:37]
B
They cannot catch a break, right?
- [12:39]
A
Like, leave them alone. First they corny and now they the devil. And I think Dungeons and Dragons is cool. I just think it's a little too elaborate for me to learn. But I do support everybody who does it. I love the show on Dropout TV with Lou Wilson where they do it. You know what I mean? So as a part of a decade long mass hysteria of satanic panic, one famous 1980s hoax claims that the game Dungeons and Dragons was an actual portal to hell and could curse the players.
- [13:06]
B
Which sounds so much cooler than what it is.
- [13:11]
A
Honestly, I kind of want to play portal to hell. I don't know why. I feel like that's my flight back to America. That's porter to hell for me.
- [13:19]
B
Don't throw the dice. It's gonna. There's no good options. The only winning move is not to play.
- [13:25]
A
Well, my producer just. Just said leave them fantastical improv nerds alone. And I agree. I agree. They are fantastical and they all do improv. I've done improv with everybody on that show, at least.
- [13:35]
B
Yeah, that makes sense, doesn't it, sweeties?
- [13:37]
A
Because they have imagination, right?
- [13:40]
B
The most dangerous thing you apparently truly that whole education.
- [13:46]
A
Yeah, you, you the devil. Throw in the river like scams. What's poppin, congregation? Okay, I'm coming at y' all hot because we need to debunk some things about plan B, emergency contraception, right now. Listen, Plan B is not an abortion pill. It's safe, effective backup birth control. You take after unprotected sex to prevent pregnancy before it starts. And are y' all ready for the inside tea? It works by temporarily delaying ovulation and it will not impact your future fertility because some days. Who know, someday you might want a little unemployed person in your house. Follow plan B on insta at plan B. One step. Use as directed. I take off my bra as soon as I get in my car on the way home. I don't even wait till I get home. I'm at the red light, unstrapping them three little prongs because it hurts. Well, it did until I found out about Adore Me. Whether you're looking for a more cleavage or a more comfort look or both, Adore Me has you covered. Adore Me offers tons of sizes with their new thoughtfully designed bras, panties, lingerie, shapewear, sleepwear, and swimwear for you to choose from each and every month. Elevate your underwear drawer with high quality sets that won't break the bank. What I really love about Adore Me is that they have this, like, cloud, like fabric. It's so soft, I don't take it off and have these, like, y' all know those little dents that you get in your shoulders from the bra? I don't have those anymore because of Adore Me. They are adoring my body and I am adoring it. And with styles starting as low as 24.95, you can feel confident even if you're on a budget. Head to adore me.com right now to shop sty from comfort to sexy in over 67 sizes. There are some days where you need to look great as ever, but you need to do it in half the time for those days. There's Batiste, the number one dry shampoo brand in the usa. Like, there's been some days where I wrapped my hair up or it was straight or whatever. You know, it's getting a little, a little greasy, honey. Little look like I just ate some, you know, french fries and then rubbed all my edges off. So I love Batiste because really, when you put it in your hair, it gives you just that little bit of volume and, like, clean look that you need to go about your day. Because listen, we're busy, okay? Capitalism is trying to kill us. We have to be everywhere, all the time, all at once. And that's why I love Batiste. You can instantly refresh your hair. It absorbs oil grease so your hair looks and feels more Clean with added volume and texture. It's great on your hair and easy on your wallet. Okay, look, I have, like, textured hair. Like, it's like A4A4B black girlies. You know what I'm talking about. I never thought dry shampoo could be for us, too. My Batiste dry shampoo. Who online are in store at your nearest retailer. And so from the Salem witch trials. Oh, my gosh, we're right. To throwing them in the river. From the Salem witch Trials to today, Americans have always been ready to blame anything and everything on the devil. I like, be.
- [16:49]
B
That is a good one.
- [16:50]
A
I feel like that's what his homies call him. That's his mama nickname. Bessie.
- [16:54]
B
Yeah. Awesome. That's pretty cute.
- [16:56]
A
Betsy. Sounds endearing. That's too.
- [16:58]
B
Yeah. Because he couldn't say it when he was little, so that's what they call him.
- [17:01]
A
Exactly. So we love throwing his name out there. Right. Especially if it lets us target women or people we just don't like for whatever reason. And I know you can talk with satanic panic in your podcast, your series. I know that that's. That seems to be a theme for sure.
- [17:17]
B
Yeah, unfortunately.
- [17:19]
A
So if you're an unmarried woman in Massachusetts in the 1600s who sounds like devil stuff to me, why you didn't want a man happy lady who probably will live longer.
- [17:31]
B
I also, when I. When you make soup, do you ever make soup and just think, like, this is a whole witch thing right here. Like, I've got a cauldron.
- [17:38]
A
Cauldron.
- [17:38]
B
I've got a broom maybe somewhere nearby. Like, this is the whole thing. Yeah.
- [17:42]
A
That's the only way I make my soup is with the broom in between my legs. It make it taste better.
- [17:47]
B
It takes a while.
- [17:48]
A
Yeah, it does. You gotta entertain yourself.
- [17:50]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [17:51]
A
And I mean, like, look, if you don't want any more kids, because, you know, kids are the easiest thing for women to have. You don't lose teeth or nipples or.
- [18:00]
B
You know, definitely die.
- [18:03]
A
Yeah, you don't definitely nearly die, Especially in this time period. You definitely, like, it's. The whole reason we have birthdays is because we were excited that the kids stayed alive.
- [18:12]
B
God. Yeah. This is also maybe a very millennial thing, but I remember it's. Well, it's also kind of Dungeons and Dragons appropriate. I remember watching God, whatever the last Star wars prequel was, was that Revenge of the Sith? Because that came out when I was, like, a junior in high school and that they had spoilers for Revenge of the Sith, but, you know. Well, I guess spoilers for whatever. It's, like, established in the first.
- [18:37]
A
Yeah, no, it's not a spoiler.
- [18:38]
B
It's spoilers. But Natalie Portman dies, and at the time, I was like, what hack screenwriting is this? That someone with the amazing Star wars technology of a galaxy far, far away that we have, like, maternal mortality is an issue in this place? And now I'm like, well, shit, I thought that maybe we were more done with this than we are. I think I grew up thinking that dying in childbirth was, like, a very pioneer times thing to do. But no, we're dropping like flies right now.
- [19:09]
A
No, we're still definitely. Especially black women. That mortality rate is super high. So shout out to y'. All. Shout out to the doulas. Shout out to the good doctors. Because, yeah, like. Like, it's just so funny to me that some of the things that we enjoy as children or not enjoy as children, but are, like, indoctrinated into our society are surrounded around things that were actually horrific at the time. Like, I'm so glad I was born in this time period. I mean, it could be better. I would rather be born in the future. But I will say, like, cedar trees can kill me, so my ass wasn't making it in the 1600s. If they have no albuterol or no steroid shots. Your girl was dead. Yeah.
- [19:46]
B
Which is very humbling. And I'm just nearsighted enough that I would have tumbled into a room.
- [19:51]
A
So, yeah, we will both have embarrassing deaths. So I'm glad that we're not there, because, like, if they at my funeral and they're like, how she died, a tree killed her.
- [19:59]
B
Like, whereas now we get to have maybe the embarrassing deaths of today, like getting hit by a drone at a baseball game or something.
- [20:06]
A
You know what? I hate that. That sentence has never been said before, but makes so much sense. It seems likely I didn't blink an eye. Did you ladies hear about the lady that passed away on Haunted Mansion at Disneyland in October?
- [20:22]
B
Okay, it's very maybe immature that my first thought is, like, oh, she's so lucky her ghost gets to live with all the haunted mansion ghosts. I'm a child.
- [20:32]
A
That's what they say.
- [20:33]
B
There's 999 friendly ghosts, but there's always room for one more.
- [20:37]
A
Just thought you guys would get a kick from them.
- [20:38]
B
I love that.
- [20:39]
A
I love that.
- [20:40]
B
I also love the story that one of the imagineers who worked on it, I think they used her face as the crystal ball, and at the end, it's her voice Saying, hurry back. And there was a Disney Imagineers documentary about how her daughter like goes on the ride to hear her now passed mom saying, hurry back.
- [21:01]
A
That's really sweet. Yeah, that's the kind of like commercialism that I'm like, exactly. I love.
- [21:08]
B
It's like be evil, but be 60s Disney evil, where you give the people a really, really, really great attraction to distract them from your evil. Yes.
- [21:17]
A
They used the evil like less. They didn't evil as hard. I don't know why.
- [21:21]
B
It was like a side thing.
- [21:23]
A
Yeah, it was like we evil on the weekends and now it's like we evil full time every day, all day.
- [21:29]
B
Well, it's cheaper. Evil is actually the most profitable business aside from cosmetics.
- [21:34]
A
So yeah, it's also the best way to extend your life. I've said this a billion times on this podcast. Y' all know when I get around 50, I' ma turn evil so I can live longer. I'm a sleep better. Empathy really fucks up your sleep. It ups your cortisol because you're stressed out because you care about people. I can't be doing that shit at 50. I'm doing all the good stuff I can right now for the community and for, for the country and for my friends and family. And then at 50, evil time.
- [21:58]
B
Yep. Blow out the candles full, Dexter. That's what you gotta do.
- [22:01]
A
Yes. Not even Dexter, because I'm not trying to get bad people. I'm getting all of y'. All. Okay. Good bad. Don't. Don't bring a baby around me. They getting plugged.
- [22:11]
B
I'm gonna set a Google calendar reminder.
- [22:13]
A
Yes. July. I don't know what you hopefully see.
- [22:16]
B
Her get out of her way.
- [22:17]
A
Yeah. Yes. So to the Puritans, men and women were equal in the eyes of God, but not in the eyes of the devil. The devil preferred. Who do you think the devil preferred out of men and women?
- [22:32]
B
Oh my God. I just know he must like women because we're corrupt and we like shiny things.
- [22:38]
A
Now. The men acted like the devil. They're like, no, no, no. It's y' all the devil in the blue dress about a lady. You know what I mean? It's like, you're a hussy, you're a tempter.
- [22:48]
B
It's like, remember that time you made me eat that apple? It's like, remember that time you just ate an apple without asking any follow up questions about what I was feeding you? Seems like a men problem.
- [22:59]
A
But you know, we have to blame the women. There has to be somebody at Fault and it cannot be them. So the point is that we in the US are uniquely susceptible to seeing Lucifer around every corner. Probably because Lucifer's in our government, like trying to act like it's a boogeyman. I'm like, no, I see the guy right now. It's Lindsey Graham. Like, what are we talking about? That's the boring devil. Although shout out to his scam where when he gets asked hard questions, he's now just falling. I think that's hilarious. Honestly, gonna incorporate it in my life.
- [23:33]
B
It's very classic eighth grade girl, you know, presentation. I didn't prepare for kind of a thing because now he's got another 24 hours. He can turn this thing around.
- [23:42]
A
Maybe I was inspired by because I did fake faint in the Berlin airport. Maybe I got it from Lizzie Graham, like, you know, so I just know you better. Yeah, I did, I did, I did. I didn't wave when I got up either. That was strange. But like, we don't care if you're all right.
- [23:59]
B
Everybody's probably like, yes, like, don't worry everybody. I'm going to live a long, fulfilling life.
- [24:06]
A
And he looks like a turtle. And he got the lifespan of a turtle to match. Like, it's over. So your new podcast series, the Devil, you know, it dives deep into all these like Santa like satanic panic things of the 80s and how the fear of the devil was weaponized and worshipers really popped off in America. Like they really loved this. Suddenly there were like self appointed experts on Satanism, on cults, on satanic cults, even on ritual abuse popping up on your TV and on the news. Obviously the television is like pumping out this sphere. They could tell you how to find evidence of Satanism in daily life or at a crime scene and they turned around and trained more experts. So part of the scam that's marking me right now is that once this fear is being drummed up, right then you have people coming in as experts. And I feel like if you're in any job where you had to have Covid advisors, if you're not a Covid advisor during the height of COVID with somebody who was on your job to make sure that everybody was following the safety procedures. This was never a job before COVID right? So people just took like a little online course and then just came in and started doing bullshit. Like, and this was, it feels like with satanic panic, like, oh, I'm an expert now. How are you an expert? This wasn't a thing. You just popped up and now you're an expert.
- [25:26]
B
You know what I would compare it to also is the kind of like wellness scams of today, right? Where like if someone is like, I'm a registered dietitian, you're like, oh, that's like a real job with school and a government and a governing body. And if someone especially on social media is like, I'm a nutritionist, it's like, well, that could mean anything. That's kind of more of a term that just means maybe I really have an education and maybe I like to go to Costco and fear monger about the rotisserie chicken, which is a very cruel thing to do, right?
- [25:59]
A
Maybe I just know off the top of my head an Apple is 70 calories, right?
- [26:04]
B
Or maybe I'm just vibing and telling people things to avoid perfectly reasonable things.
- [26:10]
A
And it's always when they call us up an expert or specialist or like just certain things that I'm like, who gave you that title?
- [26:18]
B
Right? Because I mean, I've, you know, I've been coming on shows to promote the devil, you know, and I've been introduced very kindly by people sometimes as a satanic panic expert. And I'm like, you know what, I'm not an expert. I'm just like an enthusiast. Like, I've thought about it a lot and I find it very interesting and I've put more time into it than anyone ever asked me to. But I think expertise is like anyone who self appoints themselves an expert maybe is compensating for something.
- [26:47]
A
And I mean, you didn't self appoint yourself. And I mean, honestly, Sarah, the way that you research, the only way that you could be more of an expert in my eyes is if you just met the devil himself and y' all had to sit down.
- [27:00]
B
I mean, the fact that you haven't shown up yet, I hope it's maybe somehow some way persuasive to someone who is holding on to fear of the devil. That I could spend about the last 15 years at this point speaking disrespectfully of the devil and he just doesn't care. He has not shown up. I think he's.
- [27:23]
A
You've reached out to him for comment and he's not.
- [27:26]
B
I haven't gotten any one star reviews from the devil. I think that like if he's out there, he's really minding his business and trying to, you know, make up for any misdeeds in the past.
- [27:37]
A
The devil is just a scapegoat. Like the devil made me do it, you know.
- [27:41]
B
Exactly.
- [27:42]
A
They really Popularized the scapegoat. And now everybody's like, yeah, no, the devil made him do it. He's cool. The devil made him do that. And now he good again. But the devil was doing it.
- [27:51]
B
And it's like, maybe people just want to do bad things sometimes and.
- [27:55]
A
Yeah.
- [27:55]
B
Like deal with what it is about them that happens.
- [27:58]
A
Why can't you be like the little kid in the video that I love and I still quote who when he was arrested for taking his grandma's car and going on a joyride, he was like, we was smoking cigarettes and they, and they were like, why did you do this? And he was like, I just want to do hood shit with my friends. And I was like, he didn't say the devil made me do it. He was like, I wanted to do this with my friends.
- [28:20]
B
When you're a kid, some things can seem really, really, really fun. Like how when I was like six, I somehow reached my arm up into a pad dispenser and got one out because I just thought there was candy in there and there was not. It was so boring.
- [28:33]
A
You're like, wish I got locked up in here. And it was.
- [28:35]
B
Yeah, I just had to know.
- [28:37]
A
Yeah. So social workers and therapists were told to look for the devil in their clients memories. And teachers, parents and children were told that the secret Satanic panic messages were hidden in heavy metal songs, comic books and games. So all the things that kids liked in the 80s, all the good stuff.
- [28:57]
B
Yeah. And also, and not even necessarily just the kind of thing that you would maybe from the outside imagine getting identified this way. Like Chelsea Weber Smith over on American Hysteria did some really great satanic panic coverage over the years and I think fairly early on talked about also the kind of panic around toys. And I mean there is at least one self proclaimed expert who was saying that Rainbow Bright was part of the satanic agenda because she was like, I don't know, promoting paganism or something. Not sure how it was accusing all the good stuff. I don't know because she's wearing too many colors. She's gay.
- [29:37]
A
Yeah, right. Like what were they trying to do? Also this is a direct like opposition to capitalism. So I'm shocked that they were choosing brands that were so popular. It's like, that's a good point. I want to know. I'm listening to satanic because I need to know like who's behind this and what was the goal? Because whenever I see some shenanigans, some nonsense like this is always somebody behind it. The Tea Party, the Q and A people waiting on JFK to come back. You know, there's always someone who's pulling the strings, and there's a specific reason that they're doing it. And it's never something that's not nefarious. It's never something that doesn't have to do with money.
- [30:14]
B
I think in this case, it's. It was lucrative for a lot of people because as you were saying, if you were a cop who goes to a training, this would be a weekend training at the most. And based on that, it's like, well, I'm an expert. And by the way, this is still a problem in terms of how loosely structured the system for becoming an expert witness is there's a great article by Pam Kohlf where she became a blood spatter expert witness, just like as a journalist, but just by taking, I think, just a several days long course and doing a very light amount of training. So depending on the state, depending on the area, depending on the field, there are areas of forensic science where you can, technically, according to whatever governing body exists, become an expert witness without really having to learn that much at all. And then he can just get up at a trial and say, yes, the prosecution's theory is correct or, yes, the defense's theory is correct, because I'm an expert and I say so. And that's one of the holes, I think, that still exists in our legal system. But it was also a good way to make money. Yeah.
- [31:25]
A
Because blood spatter patterns, like, when they're doing it, it's not like they can kill a living human being and see how it, like, different ways and see how the blood spatters. So it's all guess.
- [31:35]
B
They really shouldn't fake.
- [31:37]
A
Yeah, no, but it's all guessing with, like, fake people. So it's like.
- [31:42]
B
Right. And like, cops kill a lot of people, but never under experimental or, you know, kind of lab circumstances. So they're not learning anything from it, really.
- [31:50]
A
Not in a vacuum. No.
- [31:52]
B
Yeah.
- [31:53]
A
So according to some of these fake experts, like we were just talking about, daycare workers were infiltrating preschools as part of organized satanic cults so they could gain access to children for depraved rituals. Now, daycare has always been expensive and hard. Why y' all trying to get rid of miss Cathy? She's doing the best she can.
- [32:14]
B
Right. I mean, and I think it's. I think there was a lot of anxiety toward daycare providers at the time because there's this idea of, well, women are escaping the home and going back to Work and daycare is one of the things that's enabling them to do it. And so I think there was an undercarent of like, this can't be right. It's facilitating women, you know, being worldly.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah, it's the women in the daycare and the women dropping the kids off in the daycare are getting independence. And I've, I've kind of pondered about this recently, especially with the regression that's happening in America and how they're trying to get women barefoot and pregnant again.
- [32:48]
B
Yeah, that's fair.
- [32:50]
A
By taking away reproductive rights and doing everything they can to like, you know, affirmative action, which mostly benefited white women. Like all of these things that get us back in the home. And I was like, I guess it is cheaper if the woman is just at home. Like, you don't have to pay for daycare. They'll cook, they'll clean, they'll be a maid and a, and a sex lady for you and all of these things. And I think they're mad that they lost that and that they can't be pieces of shit because we'll just fucking leave. And they're like, no, no, no, no. Your whole financial like life needs to be dependent on me so that I can be a fuck ass bitch. And you can't leave because you can't have no credit card. Right. They're like, remember we didn't let women have credit cards. We need to go back to that.
- [33:34]
B
Right. And it's like, remember when the divorce rate was lower because women couldn't, couldn't escape? And also it's like, why? Why barefoot and pregnant, who took her shoes away?
- [33:44]
A
She can't be running, walk out the door. I take all her shoes when I leave for work. She can't be running nowhere. She gets shoes when I'm home.
- [33:55]
B
Oh my God.
- [33:56]
A
But. So that definitely feels like what you're saying. That type of manipulation and this panic caused real harm. Obviously, innocent people were accused of abuse based on repressed memories in quotes, which would later be debunked by a scam largely discredited by memory researchers due to the significant risk of creating false memories, especially within the therapeutic context. So like, if a therapist suggests a story to a child, it's easy to see how that could be a problem. There is no such thing as a repression, repressed memory. It's just a story that's been suggested to you enough times that you start to believe that it's true.
- [34:35]
B
This is a really interesting part of the scam to me because I think that so much of it was based on, you know, just selling something that we would all really like to have, especially based on how things have been going. And so the idea of recovered memory therapy, which started to be used on adult women, almost entirely women in the 80s, of course.
- [34:53]
A
Yeah, of course. That's the medical stuff they want to give to us. It's like, let's tell you lies. Not, let's work on your body.
- [35:00]
B
Let's throw some experimental drugs at you and just see what happens. Why the heck not? And in this case, the idea is that, well, when something traumatic happens to you, your body, your brain specifically puts it away in a special kind of lockbox. And then when you're old enough and ready, probably in your 30s, when you can afford therapy, which is an amazing idea and also a scary idea, right, Because I think that the way that we forget actually protects us from quite a lot. But it's also, you know, in this context, of course, where in the legal system, nobody really trusts women's memories when it comes especially to sexual assault or to child abuse. You have this promise offered by the therapeutic world of actually, we now know that your memories can be retrieved with perfect documentary recall. Like, you can know everything that happened to you. And one of the things that I. And that, you know, and that was untrue, but it was something that experts were telling people and telling their patients. And so if I'm told something by someone in a position of authority, like, my first impulse is to believe them, you know, especially if they're my provider.
- [36:07]
A
I call it clipboard theory. Yeah, like somebody has a clipboard. I'm like, I gotta listen to them, because where they get that little piece of wood with the clippy on it, they. They must be in charge.
- [36:17]
B
But what if you carried your own clipboard in there and you were also wearing a high vis vest, you know, and then nobody know what to do with, like, those clashing signifiers. But then, you know, something I find really heartbreaking about the whole thing is that there was a period where you would, as a woman, very likely, you know, depending on the therapist, that you had gotten just kind of through the luck of the draw, there was a good chance that you might go in and say, you know, I want to work on my depression. I want to work on this or that. I want to. You know, I do remember being abused in my past, and I want to work on that trauma. And your therapist would be like, well, actually, the most relevant thing to your life is the thing that you don't rem. And I know that you have stuff you don't remember and we're gonna get it. And if you're suggestible like I am, you would stay.
- [37:02]
A
I feel like these satanic panic expert therapists are probably just giving these women and children the plot to Rosemary's Baby and being like, yeah, yeah, you don't remember that, but it happened to you, Right?
- [37:15]
B
Well, and then there's the thing where you have so many people who are seeming to recall the same thing that one of the defenses is, well, why would they all be remembering the same thing if it didn't happen? But you could also say, why are these memories so consistent and so in line with the literature and the things that you were trying to get them to say? Like the unanimity of it. Like, if you ask a bunch of different kinds of patients from different parts of the country about non satanic sexual abuse, they'll have different stories about different circumstances. And that, to me, supports the idea that, that if you have someone who tells you a story that you didn't basically ask them to tell you, then that's the story that I want to hear.
- [37:57]
A
Robbery. It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks.
- [38:04]
B
Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte, get festive with an iced gingerbread.
- [38:09]
A
Chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha.
- [38:11]
B
Together in the is the best place.
- [38:13]
A
To be at Starbucks. What's poppin, congregation? Okay, I'm coming at y' all hot because we need to debunk some things about plan B, emergency contraception, right now. Listen, Plan B is not an abortion pill. It's safe, effective backup birth control you take after unprotected sex to prevent pregnancy before it starts. And are y' all ready for the inside tea? It works by temporarily delaying ovulation and it will not impact your future fertility. Because some days, who knows, someday you might want a little unemployed person in your house. Follow Plan B on insta at Plan B, one step. Use as directed. Happy holidays to you. Happy holidays to you. Don't let overpriced phone bills suck the joy out of you. Right now, all of Mint Mobile's Unlimited plans are 50% off. You can get 3, 6, or 12 months of unlimited premium wireless for 15 bucks a month. I'm telling y'.
- [39:19]
B
All.
- [39:19]
A
I've told y' all before. I have people in my life who have Mint Mobile and they always have service. I'm hiking. My stuff is down, theirs is up. Bars, bars, bars. Turn your expensive wireless present into a huge wireless savings future by switching to Mint shop Mint mobile plans@mintmobile.com goddess that's mintmobile.com goddess limited time offer upfront payment of 40 dol for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only over 35 gigabytes may slow when network is busy Capable device required availability, speed and coverage varies. CementMobile.com if you wish someone could just download the Week of Pop Culture News directly into your skull, what you're really wishing for is Crooked Media's culture podcast. Keep it. Y' all know I've been on that podcast a few times. Every Wednesday, pop culture wiz Lewis Fertel and his cast of rotating guest hosts break down the juiciest headlines, the buzziest releases, and the biggest cultural moments that actually matter. From Taylor Swift's Showgirl era to box office hits to the week's messiest online conversations. Each episode also features conversations with emotional support, guests like Michelle Yeoh, Gabrielle Union, Andy Cohen, Andrew Garfield, and more. Listen to Keep it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube or wherever you get your podcast and Fraud. Sarah really does a great job in her podcast of breaking all of this down and all of these details and with her research and I am unserious so I am going to get to some sillier victims of the Satanic panic. And that's the game Dungeons and Dragons. So I'm sure you've heard of it by now, but if you haven't, D and D is a fantasy role playing game that was invented in the 70s. To play it, you and four to five of your nerdier friends roll a 20 sided die and create a tactical fantasy realm playing characters that you've designed. So it's like Lord of the Rings, but everybody is making it up as they go along and the Dungeon Master or Game Master keeps track of where everyone is and what's happening. Games can basically last forever if you want them to, and some people do want that. They not trying to go home. And D and D has been taking over podcasting and Madison Square Garden for some reason. Most importantly, it was the basis for the 2023 Chris Pine movie where a very small Bradley Cooper had a romantic relationship with a very large Michelle Rodriguez. But 40 years ago, America's parents decided to freak out over kids pretending to be elves and drawing things on graph paper because that was scary.
- [42:13]
B
The fear of graph paper just so sad. You gotta just face it.
- [42:17]
A
Like I don't Think the devil been to a craft supply store. Although he might be a hobby lobby. I don't lie. So he.
- [42:23]
B
Well, yeah, he's got to get those artifacts of himself.
- [42:29]
A
In 1979, a college student and D and D player named James Dallas Egbert iii. That's a lot of names. I feel like you have some.
- [42:38]
B
That many names, it's a struggle. Yeah.
- [42:40]
A
Like, why did your parents keep naming you? Like, I feel like the nurse was like. And. Oh, and more. More names.
- [42:45]
B
You gotta call it. Yeah.
- [42:47]
A
We running out of room on the line. We are running outta room on the line, though, so. So he vanished from Michigan State University. Egbert was considered a child prodigy, talented with technology at a young age. And the 16 year old Egbert enrolled in Michigan State University as a computer science major. He was a fan of science fiction and fantasy also, possibly struggling to come to terms with his sexuality, which is relatable. So when Egbert disappeared, his parents hired a private investigator, and the PI offered some interesting theories to the media who ran with it. Sensational stories in the news described him as a boy genius who supposedly disappeared and died in the steam tunnels under his university while role playing a real life version of Dungeons and Dragons. Now, what kind of PI do you have that's just making up shit? I thought you was supposed to come with pictures. You're supposed to have a long lens and do a steak out and eat bad food in the car. What do you mean?
- [43:47]
B
He was having some fun? I remember, I think I listened to the audiobook of this private investigator's memoir at the start of the pandemic. And there's this dramatic section where he's going into the steam tunnels. It's all very exciting. And it's like, I guess you want a detective, ideally, who disregards the truth and makes up a fun thing for himself to do for his book.
- [44:10]
A
How you gonna be a detective? You just do it bits, bro. They asked you to, like, actually locate this person, and then you were, like, acting like a psychic, like. Well, I think, yeah, it is very.
- [44:20]
B
Sylvia Brown behavior, right?
- [44:23]
A
Be serious, sir. We paid you to find our son. You're like, well, I think. Hold on, y' all. Sit down. Sit down for this. What?
- [44:30]
B
I gotta go have a little adventure. I gotta go poke around and endanger myself? Yeah.
- [44:35]
A
But to his credit, the PI did eventually find Egbert alive and in New Orleans, having run away from academic and parental pressures. But at that point, the D and D angle had already gone from myth to fact, and it was too Late. At least in this situation. He ran away and was found. And it's not like he staged his own kidnapping. Cause I will never get over that black lady that we actually looked for. And she staged that over a million.
- [45:02]
B
Was that the woman who said that she saw a toddler on the side of the freeway? Yeah.
- [45:07]
A
I love that story and I'm beefing with her. I have a whole stand up joke about it because I upset like, girl, you got to move to Mexico and pretend you miss it forever. Don't talk to your family. You're embarrassing us. Like, we were looking for you. You're the first place. I love that she counted on the racism though. She was like, they don't ever look for black girls. I can definitely do this stunt and nobody will know.
- [45:27]
B
You gotta have an excuse to not look now. Yeah, I just love that she was like, there's. There's a toddler on the side of the highway. And it's like, yeah, it's very reasonable to not. She got real creative. She did. She maybe got real creative too creative.
- [45:42]
A
I mean, I did. She did leave her wig there, which I thought was a nice touch. She did leave her phone, but I'm like, you should have like at least pricked your finger and put some blood somewhere so we could really get into the lore. But I don't want to talk about how I could have improved it for her. But, but, but, yeah, at least he just ran away.
- [45:59]
B
But look at Sherry Papini. You know, she did a real shoddy job and nobody figured it out for like years, you know?
- [46:05]
A
That's true.
- [46:06]
B
Still a double standard. Anyway.
- [46:10]
A
So Edward's personal story was quite sad. Fake story about his DND disappearance boosted the popularity of the game, which had been a cult phenomenon up until that point. And now it started to get mainstream attention. I love that everybody was like, oh, the, the. The devil's in this game. They're like, the devil? Wait, where can we buy that?
- [46:29]
B
I mean, would we still be selling Ouija boards if horror movies hadn't been relying on them for like 50 years? I don't know. It's pretty boring if you're not scared.
- [46:39]
A
You're right, because it's everybody in the group just pulling the board to spell things. They want to spell. We know what's going on. But it does give you that occult vibe because of the movies. It's the same way that we were all shocked that the Louvre got the Lou got robbed because we were like, no, you gotta go through lasers and you gotta be ocean's eleven and George Clooney. And then it turns out they got 75% of like, cameras and shoddy security, and they're underpaid and overworked. And actually you could just walk up in that bitch with a chainsaw and get what you want. Like, the propaganda is all about confidence.
- [47:13]
B
It does make sense to me. That casino would have better security than one of the greatest museums in the world. Just Fitz.
- [47:20]
A
Yeah, because they're just hoping that everybody's gonna come there and act right. The casino is for shady people. Like, there's some people just go to have fun, but people who frequent casinos, they're always in some mess.
- [47:29]
B
So we should have mobsters in charge of the Louvre, obviously. Yeah.
- [47:33]
A
People in the Louvre just wanna make tiktoks to take photos of that one tiny picture. So Tom Hanks is gonna get involved?
- [47:41]
B
Yes. Ugh, I love the Tom Hanks cameo.
- [47:45]
A
So while RoseMary's Baby in 1968 and the Exorcist in 1973 brought Satan into the limelight and gave him his moment on the big screen, an equally important film captured the specific fear of Dungeons and Dragons in 1982. Sarah, you're smiling. You know what this film is?
- [48:03]
B
Yes. It's called Mazes and Monsters and it's pretty.
- [48:12]
A
So it's inspired by Egbert's disappearance and it's written about three days. Mazes and Monsters involves a group of college students who take their role playing game to the nearby caverns. One player is suffering from mental illness and begins to believe that he's his character. The book was adapted into a CBS movie of the week starring Tom Hanks in his first dramatic leading role. Okay, well, Satanic panic, maybe. I'm kind of happy with you now because you gave us Tom Hanks. Hanks. And then hilariously gave us Chet Hanks. Wagwan, my Jamaican king. I don't know. I'm back on the side of Satanic panic.
- [48:47]
B
Right? It's hard to. It's hard to know. Yeah, we need a Tom. And it's nice to see Tom Hanks just like acting his head off in this thing, you know, he really is selling it.
- [48:57]
A
Oh, let's look at this. Let's. Let's look at a clip of the film right here. We'll put this on the Instagram. Let's see Tom acting his head off going. Join the Great Hall. You can't. It's a trap.
- [49:12]
B
I have spells.
- [49:13]
A
I'm going to fly.
- [49:14]
B
You don't have enough points. I am the maze controller.
- [49:19]
A
Tom was eating whoever. That other actor.
- [49:21]
B
I love that Robbie Benson looking kid.
- [49:23]
A
You can't. You can't fly. I have other spells. I'm the main controller. I don't know what happened to that.
- [49:29]
B
Guy, but I appreciate that approach, you know, because you can't be like, it's. It's not real. It's an illusion. You have to be like, you don't have enough points in the game, you silly goofy.
- [49:38]
A
No, I do, but I just feel like the delivery was like, I mean, we got time. Like, Tom is eating him up.
- [49:44]
B
But yes, exactly. The acting is. You know, this is also one of those TV movies at the time where they're like, we're definitely not Canadian, eh? And they are. And that's just fun.
- [49:53]
A
Yes, that's what it's giving. And I love that scam. And. Right. We're cooking with gas now because we got a whole movie about how Dungeons and Dragons is definitely like the devil's K hole. And in terms of fear mongering, a woman pulls up and her name is Patricia Pulling and she is gonna light a match. So constant warning here there is a mention of suicide, and we will put that in the footnotes as well. Patricia's teenage son Irving, committed suicide in 1982. That's really hard to go through. And it's a type of grief that almost no one else can understand. And shout out to Regina King for being such an icon going through that with her son. I don't know why that made me think of that, but I just love Regina K. King. But in Patricia's case, she really aimed her heartbreak at one scapegoat source that never wavered for the rest of her life. This is where she channeled all of her energy. And you can probably guess what it is. Dungeons and Dragons. Yeah.
- [50:54]
B
I mean, it is easier than the gun lobby, I guess, to take on.
- [50:57]
A
Yeah, the gun lobby is very strong.
- [51:01]
B
It's one of the. I think one of the weaknesses in American life is that we want to let our policy be written by people who are actively grieving. And that's not really good for anybody.
- [51:11]
A
Yeah. But they're the only people at the time that have leverage because that's the visibility and that's why I hate the influencer culture of our society. It's like. But so here we have her saying that her son is a big fan of D and D. And instead of considering Irving's struggle to fit in at school, he his or his easy access to her husband's handgun. Like you said at home, Pat Decided to blame the game Dungeons and Dragons. We went into the kitchen and there on the table were what we thought were just regular composition books with schoolwork.
- [51:46]
B
In it and much of the Dungeons and Dragons material along with this curse.
- [51:51]
A
He had received in the game that.
- [51:53]
B
Day that he died.
- [51:55]
A
So she thought because somebody told him to draw four, that's why he left us. Like make it make sense. Yeah, but at the same time, I understand she's grieving. I understand this is a devastating loss for mother especially, I mean parents especially. So I, I empathize with her. But I want to know who got in her ear and was like, no, no, no. It was definitely because of the Dungeons and Dragons. So she filed a wrongful death lawsuit, which I'm sure you know, against her son's high school principal, holding him responsible for what she claimed was a DND curse placed son's character shortly before his death. She also sued the D and D game publishers. Now baby suing D and D game publishers. That makes sense to me, cuz they probably got some coin. The high school principal. What did you think you were going to get out of it?
- [52:40]
B
I did not know that she sued the principal. That's wild. Yeah.
- [52:43]
A
And so after all her lawsuits were dismissed, Patricia founded the advocacy group Bothered about Dungeons and Dragon, AKA Bad B, A D, D. I was about to say, why would you call it Bothered about? Right. But she just wanted bad.
- [53:00]
B
You wonder if like Mothers again on drunk driving was calling her and was like, hey, it seems like you're taking our acronym. Kind of, yeah.
- [53:08]
A
She's like, no, I'm bad. Y' all mad. It's different. It's different. So her advocacy material said that the game used demonology. That's a new word. Witchcraft, voodoo, and other intense things like murder, sexual assault, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex, perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling. Barbara. Barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromancy, divination, and other teachings. She threw in every bad word you could.
- [53:44]
B
Yeah, if only the kids were necromancing.
- [53:46]
A
Yeah, for sure. Necromancing. Wait, what? What else? Stabbing, punching babies. What else could I say? That's bad. Kicking ducks.
- [53:55]
B
Not cutting up their soda rings.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah, not. Definitely not cutting up their soda rings. That's a part of the game.
- [54:00]
B
Getting. They're getting far too much soda. I'm. Yes.
- [54:03]
A
They're like, willie ain't getting free. He getting killed by soda rings from Dungeons and Track.
- [54:08]
B
What?
- [54:09]
A
She threw in every buzzword, conservative Christian media, Outlets repeated this information without fact checking it, because why would they do that? I don't know.
- [54:17]
B
That's not their thing.
- [54:18]
A
Nobody fact checked the Bible, so, like, why would they? They're like, that's not.
- [54:22]
B
Yeah, there's some weird stuff in there.
- [54:24]
A
Yeah. But they're like, no, no, no. It's all good. So Patricia even obtained a private investigator's license for herself. She became a consultant to law enforcement and was an expert witness in several G lawsuits, all of which also lost in court because. What is y' all talking about? And why. What lawyer is letting you. She must have been raising funds, because I'm like, aren't you going broke paying for all these fake sham trials?
- [54:47]
B
Well, and also, I feel like if you become an expert in Dungeons and Dragons, you would have to play it at least once and then realize that.
- [54:54]
A
It'S not, you know?
- [54:55]
B
And, look, I love Dungeons and Dragons. I support the right of anyone who wants to play it. But also, it is so boring. So much time passes before anything happens, and I feel like the point of it really is to be with your friends and to have a thing that you do and to have a campaign that goes on for maybe years or decades, but it feels like if you were to play it, you would be like, oh, this is not the portal to hell that I was promised. We're still definitely sitting around someone's dining room table. Right, Right.
- [55:27]
A
And if it is the porter to hell, it's the scenic route. Like, wow, it's been taking us a while. I thought portals were quick. We've been here for three hours.
- [55:35]
B
We've been playing for eight years. We haven't been on that, but we have hopes. Yeah.
- [55:41]
A
And, I mean, even though she was wrong, you have to admire her persistence. And I feel like that's just, like, grief. Like, love is persevering. And so she was trying to do this for her son, and I obviously got hyped up by a bunch of other lunatics. But in her case, I really think, like, she was really trying to do something for her son. At least that's what I hope. I don't know the lady.
- [56:01]
B
And I think that a lot of. Yeah. People who are on their own grief journey, like, we can't expect them to tell us all what to fear. You know, they're figuring it out for themselves. And so to use someone that way just feels very opportunistic.
- [56:16]
A
Extremely. Extremely. So she kept going, baby. She co authored the book the Devil's Web. Who is stalking your children for Satan? Honestly, not gonna Lie. Great title. If I saw it in the airport. I'm picking that up. Okay. I got a six hour flight. Oh, I could. I could knock that book out. She was known nationally as an expert on the occult. Again with the expert title. Where did she get it? We don't know. And so she testified in a capital murder, like, excuse me, multiple capital murder trial. I can't even get it out because it's so ridiculous. Multiple capital murder trial. And appeared on tv including. Well, this is not shocking to me. The Oprah Winfrey Show. We've seen how many grifters were platformed and legitimized on Oprah Winfrey's show. Dr. Oz, who just told us that all of America is gonna lose 393 pounds because of his health initiative. So I don't know what that's.
- [57:17]
B
Too many pounds.
- [57:17]
A
My bones are gonna be. Cause I don't got that many. But okay. She platformed Ayanna Van Zant, which is my favorite one. A therapist. I'm putting heavy air Qu. Makes people sing their rap lyrics to pictures of Harriet tubman. Honestly. Cinema Dr. Phil, who just yells at people to try to help them, but he's not trying to help them at all. Like, I won't forget ever in my life the episode where he has somebody on who was addicted to crack cocaine. And he was like, just stop doing crack. And I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna heal them, sir, but you are very unserious. So of course Oprah Winfrey had this lady out because this is what Oprah Winfrey she.
- [57:54]
B
Yeah, she was also. Five shows a week, you gotta pack em with guests.
- [57:58]
A
Yeah, you're right. At that point, Oprah was like, look, I'm trying to be discerning, but we gotta get these ratings.
- [58:05]
B
Yeah, well, I also, I feel like Oprah kind of like, I don't know what, like in the late 90s, early 2000s, she kind of underwent this makeover of like being more about kind of vague spirituality and positivity and favorite things. And that was the Oprah I grew up with. And so there's this interesting thing where you see what she was on. It's like seeing your mom in the 80s where you're like, oh, you were having a lot of alleged Satanists on before you got into all the Steinbeck and everything.
- [58:31]
A
And I mean, that's why white women love Oprah so much. And I'm not gonna lie, it's not just white women. My mom loves Oprah. My mom has been was at the Oprah show several times. There used to be an Oprah room in our house, which included a cardboard cutout that she got from a local bookstore because they were about to get rid of it of Oprah. And she had a poster of Oprah framed, and it just said re read. And it was Oprah with a book open.
- [58:56]
B
Just follow her eyeballs. Follow you around the room.
- [58:59]
A
No, literally. Literally. We called it the Oprah room. It was a guest room, and there's just Oprah stuff in there. So, I mean. And I have mixed feelings about Oprah, but she still is iconic and always will be. I am so the. The mom of Edward was Also on Geraldo, 60 Minutes, and Larry King Live to talk about teens involved in satanic worship. Larry King been on tv. He, like, as soon as they made tv, he was like, let me get on that bitch. Y'. All. Y' all figured it out. Plug it in. I'm gonna get on there.
- [59:31]
B
He walked over from the radio side.
- [59:33]
A
Or something, literally, like, is he alive?
- [59:37]
B
I think he died a few years ago, but it was like, he. He seemed to be 80 for my entire life.
- [59:42]
A
Yeah, he's like Morgan Freeman to me. Like, I've never seen.
- [59:45]
B
But I'm saying that now. I'm like, is he dead? I don't know.
- [59:47]
A
I don't know.
- [59:49]
B
It doesn't feel like, always be with us.
- [59:50]
A
I feel like he'll always be with us. Shout out to Larry King. So we're back to Egbert's mom spoke on more than 200 radio shows and was the subject of local and national news articles. In one print interview with the Richmond news leader, Patricia said in her expert opinion that about 8% of the population of Richmond were probably Satanists. I don't know where she pulled eight from. Probably out of her ass. But also at this point, I realized that she's probably getting dulu. Because think about it. You're on Oprah, you're on Geraldo, you're on Larry King. You have all these national articles. Now all this stuff is starting to come to you. Like, it's getting to your head, and you're like, I want to keep this fame and popularity up. So I. I really got to just start saying anything.
- [60:29]
B
Eight percent of Richmond is like, to be clear, that's like thousands and thousands of people who are supposed to be closeted Satanists. Yeah. I do feel like there would be this. This phenomenon where, like, if it becomes your job to say kind of outrageous things, then you would be getting all this positive reinforcement for doing that. And it would maybe escalate.
- [60:50]
A
I feel like she should have gone a little higher with the fake number though. I'm thinking like, like 23%.
- [60:56]
B
What percentage?
- [60:57]
A
You know, it's not quite 25. It's not a fourth, but.
- [61:00]
B
Right. It's less real than if it were 25, cuz. 8.
- [61:03]
A
I'm like, I'm not stoking no fears with that. Or maybe not even using that way of math. Maybe like one in every six.
- [61:10]
B
Yeah, yeah. Also, nobody cares about Richmond. She needed to pick a. You know, she said Dallas. People would have. Yeah, people would have freaked out Dallas.
- [61:20]
A
Yeah. She had to go very religious, but also large city. Yeah. Florida. Florida. Everybody in Florida will believe anything. So Florida would have been great. I mean, if somebody said today, not everybody else.
- [61:33]
B
If someone said today that 50% of people in Portland, Oregon, where I live, are Satanists, that, I mean, people would believe them, but that I think they would believe them on the basis of like. Well, they look at tarot and they.
- [61:44]
A
Yeah.
- [61:46]
B
I don't know. They have Christmas.
- [61:47]
A
They have the most strip clubs.
- [61:48]
B
They have the most strip clubs per capita. So there goes Satan. And it's like, well, that's a very loosely defined Satanism. Then what are we talking? Really?
- [61:56]
A
Yeah, but there's women and Satan loves to use her. And they're at the booty Club.
- [62:00]
B
There are a lot of hot girls in Portland. Yeah. Clearly satanic.
- [62:04]
A
Devilish. Yes. I love Portland. But. Yeah. So by 1991, people start to calm down. Kinda. The American association of Suicidology, the US Centers for Disease Control and Health and Welfare, Canada all concluded that there was no causal link between fantasy gaming and suicide and that we all needed to cool. Cool off. So she rode this wave.
- [62:28]
B
But what if we stop funding these agencies and then they can stop telling us that we're freaking out for no reason and then we can keep freaking out for no reason. That's apparently what we're doing now.
- [62:37]
A
You know, everybody's doing their own research these days, which is fine, because I'm like, I want to do research papers when you were required to do them in school. You tell me you really doing your own research, right?
- [62:49]
B
I love nothing more than doing research. But it doesn't count if you refuse to listen to half of the available information because you're afraid you'll learn something. Right?
- [62:57]
A
I'm like, I know. MLA format. Hate to see you coming because you. Y', all. Y'.
- [63:03]
B
All. Oh, I kind of Ms. MLA format.
- [63:05]
A
Oh. I mean, these days they don't even, like, write with the pencils that much anymore.
- [63:11]
B
I feel so old.
- [63:12]
A
I'm like, I'm not writing essays with pencils and then passing it to somebody so they can give you a peer review and then rewrite and then.
- [63:19]
B
I know. No, you know what's great, though, is that like this boring thing that we had to do in middle school that never seemed like it was a real life skill at the time, at least to me, where they're like, all right, write a five paragraph essay in the next hour. You'd be like, ugh, okay, I'll do it. And now the ability to do that is like having been to, I don't know, Shaolin Monk Academy or something in terms of how far away it seems.
- [63:43]
A
Right. It's like we were all at like, Harry Potter or something. Now we got all types of skills. I mean, fuck Dickie Rowland, she's a terse.
- [63:51]
B
We had teachers who were mean to us, and we learned how to magically produce a whole page of writing.
- [63:56]
A
It's a special skill that I now covet. I mean, I've never used a protractor since, but, you know, at one point in my life, a triangle hated to see me coming. So that brings us to the end of this episode. And I'm so glad that I had you for this because there's so much satanic panic scamming, and I know that that's something that I will call you an expert, because I don't think you're a scammer at all. I know you maybe are gonna be cautious with the that word, but I know the way that you think and I know the way that you research. So I'm gonna say expert.
- [64:30]
B
I will let you call me an expert. Yeah, I'll be a. A guest expert on Scam Goddess Land and nowhere else. Yeah. And I'm so happy to. To get to talk to you about it today because I feel like this is one. One chapter of it that is so compelling. And if there's people listening and yeah, if people want to read more, do that.
- [64:50]
A
The devil you know, your podcast, like, that's where you can get eight episodes of a deep dive of all of this wild stuff that was legitimately happening in the 80s. So.
- [65:01]
B
Yeah, and it really. And I guess it keeps getting weirder. And we have also eight regular episodes and eight bonus episodes where we have kind of extended conversations with some, I will call them experts, some fabulous experts who we got to talk to, including an expert on the scalar theorizing world, which I don't think is going anywhere. And yeah, it's been such a joy to put together and to get to just share the weirdness. And also, I think maybe what I hope people take from it is that people get scammed all the time throughout history. And if we're around and not falling for the fear, then it's our job to take care of each other because the fear does some scary things.
- [65:46]
A
That's beautiful, especially in the times that we're in. Like, that's a really beautiful sentiment. And I love to be nosy, so I can learn a bunch of stuff. But I can also carry that thread throughout my life because we're still living in those times. History just does repeat itself. So I always ask at the end of the show, Sarah, where would you like to be found? Any socials, anything you want to plug?
- [66:08]
B
Thank you. Yeah, you can see and listen to my new show, the Devil, you know. It's out from cbc, podcast podcasts. And you can also listen to my show youw're wrong about. And you can find that show on Instagram at I think you're wrongaboutpod. And also just find me in the cool breeze of a winter's day Find me in a face in the clouds. I'm always with you. That was beautiful. And if you're afraid of the devil, then I will tell him to keep away from you.
- [66:39]
A
Lay off. Yeah, I'll tell him to lay off.
- [66:42]
B
And also, I've done a couple episodes of the show in the past that I had such a good time doing, and I want people to find me there, too. Yes.
- [66:50]
A
Okay. Sarah, thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it. It's always nice to talk to you. It's been too long.
- [66:54]
B
It's great to talk to you, too. I know it's been 200 years. Yeah.
- [66:58]
A
And it feels like 200 years the way the time is moving right now. But as always, y', all, if you want to see the photos and the videos that we talked about and listened to on the podcast today, you can go to scamgoddesspod on Instagram. Follow the page. Like the page send. Make your baby an Instagram account and then also follow with that and make your dog an Instagram account and also follow with that and stream it for your baby at nap time. Okay. I'm greedy. And you can follow me at D I V A L A C I for all of my shenanigans. I'm wrapping up the second season of Going Dutch, so it'll be on Fox and Hulu. Very soon. You can watch my show Scam Goddess on Hulu. And, yeah, you can get my book Scam Goddess. Wherever books are sold, including audiobooks. That is all I have to plug. But I want to say I love you guys. Thank you for being here, Sarah. This is a fantastic episode, as per usual. You never disappoint. Thank you so much. And congregation, I want y' all to get out there, and I want y' all to stay. I want y' all to stay panicking. Not panic attacks, but, like, right now, we do need to be in heightened alert. So, like, just panic a little.
- [68:07]
B
Soda rings sometimes.
- [68:08]
A
Yeah, cut. Yeah, I want y' all to stay cutting up. Soda rinse. Okay. We can't let Willie go out like that. And Sheldon the turtle. The sea turtle. Okay. Think about him. All right, Bye. Bye. Scam Goddess stars and is hosted by me, Lacey Mosley, AKA Scam Goddess. Our producer is Jessica Cisneros, and our audio engineer is Rich Garcia. Research for the show as conducted by Kate Doyle. Stay scheming. There are some days where you need to look great as ever, but you need to do it in half the time. For those days, there's Batiste, the number one dry shampoo brand in the usa. Like, there's been some days where I wrapped my hair up where it was straight or whatever. You know, it's getting a little. A little greasy, honey. Little look like I just ate some, you know, french fries and then rubbed all my edges off. So I love Batiste because really, when you put it in your hair, it gives you just that little bit of volume and, like, clean look that you need to go about your day. Because, listen, we're busy, okay? Capitalism is trying to kill us. We have to be everywhere, all the time, all at once. And that's why I love Batiste. You can instantly refresh your hair. It absorbs oil grease, so your hair looks and feels more clean with added volume and texture. It's great on your hair and easy on your wallet. Okay, look, I have, like, textured hair. Like, it's like a 4A, 4B black girlies. You know what I'm talking about? I never thought dry shampoo could be for us, too. My Batiste dry shampoo online or in store at your nearest retailer. Finding the music you love shouldn't be hard. That's why Pandora makes it easy to explore all your favorites and discover new artists and genres you'll love. Enjoy a personalized listening experience simply by selecting any song or album. And we'll make a station crafted just for you. Best of all, you can listen for free, download Pandora on the Apple App Store or Google Play and start hearing the soundtrack to your life.