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- [00:00]
Sarah Hagie
Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.
- [00:08]
Sachi Kol
A note for our listeners. This episode describes incidents of domestic violence. Listen with care. Sarah, have you ever entered a beauty contest by chance? Like, were you ever competing to be Little Miss Ottawa?
- [00:27]
Sarah Hagie
Oh, of course not. I was a weird looking K. No, no, no, no and no. There was no universe where that would have happened in my life. Why would you? No.
- [00:39]
Sachi Kol
I mean, my dad was like one of those very particular male feminists in the 90s. So it was very important that I be smart above being pretty, so I would never be entered in a contest. Like, rooted in my cuteness.
- [00:54]
Sarah Hagie
I also was weird looking. But look at you now. Smart. Look at us. Beautiful. Aw. You can win Ms. Podcast.
- [01:02]
Sachi Kol
That should be an award. And they should give.
- [01:04]
Sarah Hagie
Yes.
- [01:05]
Sachi Kol
All right. Well, Sarah, we have a really good one this week. It's all about one of America's most famous beauty queens and how close she was to losing everything.
- [01:18]
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- [01:22]
Sachi Kol
Yeah.
- [01:23]
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- [01:49]
Sachi Kol
It's October 1987 in New York City. 63 year old Bess Meyerson is in a Lincoln Town Car pulling up to the federal courthouse in lower Manhattan. Waiting Outside are around 200 reporters, photographers, news crews, and plenty of curious onlookers packed onto the courthouse steps. The moment her car door opens, they surge forward, all trying to get a glimpse of the great Bess Meyerson. Brought low. Bess has been a New York icon for decades, ever since she was crowned Miss America more than 40 years ago. Since then, she's been a TV host, an influential figure in city politics, and a regular tabloid fixture. But lately, she's been in the headlines for a very different reason. She's at the center of a tawdry affair, one that has spiraled onto allegations of corruption while she was in office. And today, she's being indicted on Federal charges, including bribery. Bess steps out of the car wearing a black Chanel suit. Her short brown hair is perfectly styled and she stands tall at 5 foot 10. Simply put, she's striking. Bess holds her head high as she walks through the scrum, not showing a glimpse of doubt or shame inside. Bess makes her way to the huge black marble and wood trimmed courtroom and takes a seat. A moment later, federal marshals escort in a man wearing a dark blue suit. This is andy Capasso. He's 15 years younger than Bess, with thinning brown hair and thick bushy eyebrows. He's a little rough around the edges and looks like an extra from the Sopranos. Then Bess name is called and she takes her place next to Andy. He leans in to whisper something to her and then they kiss. Because Andy isn't just Bess co defendant, he's also her boyfriend and together they're accused of doing favors for the judge overseeing Andy's divorce case in exchange for a reduction in his alimony payments. The woman who was once New York's sweetheart now stands accused of not just breaking up a marriage, but colluding to take money out of the ex wife's pocket.
- [03:50]
Sarah Hagie
Usually once people are in court and they're probably guilty, they don't kiss. You know, they usually break up. By then they're not really supporting each other. So this to me sounds like true love.
- [04:02]
Sachi Kol
Wow, Sarah, that's really beautiful.
- [04:04]
Sarah Hagie
I'm not saying it's good love, I'm just saying it's true.
- [04:07]
Sachi Kol
Yeah. A subtle but important distinction. While Andy has been brought in for this hearing from a federal penitentiary in Allenwood, Pennsylvania, because he's already serving a four year sentence for tax fraud, seeing him in person must comfort Bess a little. After everything they've been through, at least they're facing this moment together. And now in front of the judge and the press, they hold hands. Bess pleads not guilty. The judge sets her bail at $250,000 and orders her to surrender her passport. But luckily she's granted permission to travel within the United States because she's scheduled to do a press tour for her upcoming book, Miss America 1945. Bess Meyerson's own story. Just 50 minutes later, the hearing is over. Andy has to return to his prison cell. Bess leans into Andy and they kiss goodbye. Bess makes her way out of the courthouse and is ushered to a microphone where she delivers a brief statement.
- [05:02]
Bess Meyerson (archive audio)
For a long period, I've been the target of ugly accusations and false rumors and I look forward to having my day in court. I'm totally confident that I will be vindicated.
- [05:16]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, you just shouldn't say that even if you're right, like, it's court, babe. You might not be vindicated even if you should be.
- [05:24]
Sachi Kol
That's true. Yeah.
- [05:25]
Sarah Hagie
But you know what? That confidence is needed, I guess.
- [05:29]
Sachi Kol
Go off, queen. Well, Bess doesn't answer a single question. Instead, she turns and walks to her waiting car. As she passes, someone in the crowd shouts, good luck. And you get the sense they might mean it. Because despite this fall from grace, this trial isn't quite what it seems. Behind it, there's a disgraced judge, a mentally unstable daughter, and an opportunistic US Attorney looking to use this high profile case to advance his career. When news of Bess affair first broke, the public backlash was brutal. But now the backlash to the backlash is beginning to swing back in Bess favor. The whole saga has come to be known as the Bess mess. And it threatens to tarnish the career Bess has spent decades building. But in some ways, she's been training for this moment her entire life. Now the city's most successful beauty queen is stepping onto a different kind of stage. The courtroom. And she'll do whatever it takes to prove her innocence and protect her legacy. From audible originals. I'm Sachi Kol.
- [06:35]
Sarah Hagie
And I'm Sarah Hagie.
- [06:36]
Sachi Kol
And this is Scamfluencers.
- [06:39]
Sarah Hagie
Come and give me your attention. I won't ever learn my lesson. Turn my speakers to 11. I feel like a legend.
- [06:47]
Sachi Kol
Bess Meyerson's remarkable life reads like a parable of the 20th century American woman. She rose to fame as the first and still the only Jewish Miss America. Overcoming antisemitism on the pageant circuit, she leveraged this fame into a successful television career. And then in the 1970s, she made a leap into New York City politics, becoming part of a new generation of educated, ambitious women stepping into public life. But in the 1980s, it all began to unravel. The scandal and the legal drama that followed became a tabloid obsession, and the press gleefully ripped apart Bess pristine image. Her story captures the contradictions of that era. Women celebrated for breaking barriers and yet judged more harshly when they fell short. In every way, Bess was larger than life. And in the end, it may be her flaws that define her legacy. This is Bess Meyerson, Miss America, on trial.
- [07:40]
Sarah Hagie
Legend.
- [07:45]
Sachi Kol
It's September 1945 in Atlantic City. Less than a week after the end of World War. Bess Meyerson is standing on stage with 12 other finalists for Miss America, we have a photo of her from that night. Sarah, can you describe her?
- [07:57]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, she's beautiful. She's stunning. Like, she looks like a classic beauty
- [08:02]
Sachi Kol
hottie with a body.
- [08:03]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, she has a big, bright smile. She's wearing her crown. Beautiful dark hair. I mean, yeah, she's beautiful by any standard.
- [08:13]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, she's super cute. And even among the other beauty contestants, Bess stands out because she is nearly six feet tall and towers over the other women. But while her smile exudes confidence, inside, she is fighting major imposter syndrome. Bess grew up in a large Jewish housing co op in the Bronx. During the Great Depression, money was tight, so Bess and her two sisters shared one bedroom, and their parents slept in the living room. And even though Bess grew up knowing she was beautiful, beauty wasn't the priority in her family. Hard work and education were. And her mom, Bella, was strict. She pushed her daughters to study, telling them, you hate me now, you'll love me later.
- [08:54]
Sarah Hagie
Funny enough, that kind of sounds like Ramona Singer.
- [08:58]
Sachi Kol
It's very Mom. It's very Mom. It is.
- [09:01]
Sarah Hagie
And it's kind of what you should be saying to your daughter, especially, you know, like, it's 1945. Being Jewish American in the Bronx is not easy, and sounds like good parenting to me, to empower your daughters that way.
- [09:14]
Sachi Kol
Yeah. Well, Bess desperately wanted her mother's approval, so she excelled in school and became an accomplished pianist. She figured if she was good enough at piano, she could always make Money teaching. By 12, Bess was performing with a small orchestra, and after high school, she majored in music at Hunter College. But although she wanted to get her master's, she couldn't afford it. That's when her sister signed Bess up to compete in this pageant. Bess only agreed for one reason. The $5,000 prize, which would be about $90,000 today. So now Bess is on stage wearing a borrowed white bathing suit that's a little too small. Her sister slept in it last night to stretch it out and then sewed Bess into it that morning. If she breathes the wrong way, she's worried the seams will pop. But despite all that, she's doing incredibly well. She's already won the talent portion by playing the piano and the flute, and she won the swimsuit competition. No other girl has two wins under their belt, so Bess knows she's got a legitimate chance. This is a huge moment. Reporters are everywhere, and for the first time, the pageant is being broadcast on television as the runners up are announced. So many thoughts must be racing through Bess mind. Besides being taller than the other girls, Bess is also the only Jewish contestant in the 1940s. That doesn't exactly fit the conventional idea of beauty. Bess later said she could feel the anti Semitism at the event. And while Bess doesn't know it at the time, many of the judges received calls the night before warning them not to vote for the Jewish girl.
- [10:49]
Sarah Hagie
Oh, my God, that's terrible. And it's honestly just like not surprising at all. I'm sure it's just like a terrible feeling to know that you're probably the best there, but you are being told that you're not.
- [11:02]
Sachi Kol
Yeah. Weirdly universal experience, huh?
- [11:05]
Sarah Hagie
Yes.
- [11:06]
Sachi Kol
Well, Bess tries to stay calm. And then they call out the winner's name. Bess Meyerson. The audience erupts in cheers and applause. A crown is placed on her head and a robe around her shoulders. She smiles and stays composed, just like her mother taught her back in the Bronx. Neighbors celebrate with music and dancing. At only 21, Bess is the first Jewish Miss America. And her win means a lot to the Jewish community. But while the crown is supposed to open doors, Bess is about to find out just how many will remain stubbornly closed. And if she wants to make a difference, she'll have to forge her own path. Just a week after being named Miss America, Bess is on the road touring the country in a vaudeville show called the American Beauty Review. She's playing the piano in a high neck dress, and she can hear the audience snickering. She knows what they really to see her in a bathing suit just like the one she was wearing when she became Miss America. Night after night, it's the same reaction. Eventually, Bess gives in, first adding a bathing suit during her final number and then wearing it for the entire show. She's making good money, $1,000 a week. But this experience isn't what she expected it to be. She's feeling lonely and depressed.
- [12:26]
Sarah Hagie
You know, it's always hard when you feel like you're doing something lucrative that many people want to do, but it's still not really fulfilling. And you're also doing things that feel icky. You know, it's like she's meant to feel like she's so lucky to have this opportunity, but there's something not right about it. And she's lonely. She misses her family.
- [12:45]
Sachi Kol
Yeah. And it gets worse. Many of the pageant sponsors are unhappy supporting a Jewish winner. And on the road, Bess is Banned from certain country clubs, veterans hospitals and hotels. Finally, she's had enough. Bess quits the tour and goes home to the Bronx. But instead of disappearing, she decides to fight back. She partners with the Anti Defamation League and spends the next six months traveling all over the country giving a speech titled, you can't be beautiful and hate.
- [13:17]
Sarah Hagie
You know, that is a 30 Rock joke. It's a fact, too. You can't be beautiful and be a hater.
- [13:23]
Sachi Kol
Only ugly people are haters.
- [13:25]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. You know what it's about? Who's giving the message. And that is the message that is tailored for the beauty queen. Right. It's important.
- [13:33]
Sachi Kol
Well, as her life moves forward, Bess meets a successful manufacturer and World War II veteran named Alan Wayne. He's tall and handsome with wavy brown hair, and she is immediately smitten. Unlike other men, Allan is easy to talk to and he doesn't seem intimidated by her. Bess proposes, and one month later, they elope. A year after that, they have a baby girl named Barbara who goes by Barra. But her marriage isn't the fairy tale Bess thought it would be. Alan, likely struggling with Post Traumatic stress disorder, abuses Bess when he drinks. Bess wants out, but her parents tell her to go home and fix it. But at least Bess career is taking off. She gets a job on a game show called the Big Payoff, and for eight years she's known as the lady in Mink. She introduces guests, announces prizes and wears a mink coat to show the contestants what they can win. She also does promotional work. Here's a clip of her advertising shampoo.
- [14:30]
Bess Meyerson (archive audio)
Shinier, easier to manage hair. I'm Bess Morrison with wonderful news about three Luster Cream shampoos.
- [14:41]
Sachi Kol
Bess looks glamorous on tv, but behind the scenes it's a different story. She often has to call in sick because she's too bruised to appear on camera. Despite the chaos at home, Bess shines on tv. Her charm and her charisma are undeniable. Bess newfound fame and success don't sit well with Alan. And finally, in 1956, 10 years into their marriage, things explode. Allan and Bess get into an argument and Alan hits her, chases her into the street and drags her across the sidewalk. Four days later, Bess calls the police and leaves with their daughter. Allan reports her for kidnapping and Bess files for divorce. Bess and Alan spend months fighting over custody and even try to reconcile. But by November 1957, it's over. Bess secures full custody. She and her daughter are finally free.
- [15:31]
Sarah Hagie
Oh my gosh, that is insane. 1957, getting full custody and divorcing, it's not an easy thing to do. So that it happened at all and she got out of that marriage is huge.
- [15:45]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, I mean, thank God. But there is one big problem. During the divorce, Bess discovered that Allen had spent almost all of their money. Now she's a single mother who has to pay the bills. So she starts booking more TV gigs. She appears on panel shows like I've Got a Secret, guest hosts the Today show, emcees the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, the Rose bowl, and even returns to Miss America, this time as the host. For the first time, she's really living on her own terms. Bess embraces the single life and begins hosting events and putting herself out there. And at one of these events, she'll meet a man who will change the course of her entire life. In the fall of 1961, 37 year old Bess is emceeing the Anti Defamation League's annual dinner. After she gives a short speech, she introduces one of the night's honorees, Arnold Grant, a 53 year old lawyer in the entertainment industry and well known fundraiser for Jewish organizations and the Democratic party. When Arnold stands up to speak, he asks her out in front of the entire crowd.
- [16:52]
Sarah Hagie
You know, I do think that is an extremely nutso move. But she's a gorgeous woman and gorgeous women sometimes respond to grand gestures. So I could see how this could work. But it also depends on how handsome and rich he is, in my opinion.
- [17:08]
Sachi Kol
Well, Bess is flattered and she's heard of Arnold before. He's uber rich, represents clients like Johnny Carson and Bing Crosby, and he runs in social circles with people like Eleanor Roosevelt and John F. Kennedy. He's traveled all over the world, buys expensive art and vacations in exotic places like the French Riviera. Plus she thinks he's handsome, so Bess accepts his invitation. Six months later, Arnold proposes with a $60,000 diamond ring. And after they get married, they jet off on a honeymoon around the world. When they finally return to New York, they move into a suite at the Plaza Hotel. While Arnold's triplex apartment is being remodeled, Bess is now living in luxury and meeting people like Salvador Dali and Johnny Carson. Arnold even adopts Bess daughter Barra. On paper, it's a perfect life, but behind the scenes, it's also tumultuous. Arnold has a very 1950s attitude when it comes to gender roles. He wants to be the star, often launching into long lectures at dinner, while Bess is supposed to play hostess for his fancy friends. But we're now in the 60s, and Bess isn't interested in shrinking herself. Sarah, can you read how Bess described one experience in the fall of 1965?
- [18:22]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. She says, one night we had some political people over. It was a stimulating dinner party. After it was over, I said, arnold, I learned so much tonight. It was wonderful. And he said, yes, but Bess, sit down. I want to discuss something with you. These shrimp forks are too small. I knew then I had to leave. Wow. That is really one of those interactions that seem so small that just kind of solidifies why someone isn't right for you. And also, it pisses me off when a guy marries a woman knowing very well what her life is and expects her to change. You know, what you were marrying. Why do you think she's going to change now?
- [18:58]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, exactly. And after four and a half years, Bess and Arnold divorce. But then her TV career takes a hit. When I've Got a Secret is canceled. Suddenly, Bess is feeling financially uncertain again. And for some reason, Bess decides to give Arnold another chance. The couple have disagreeing accounts as to why they ended up living together again. But either way, they get back together and remarry in 1968. And Bess quickly realizes this is a mistake. But this time, she feels stuck. She doesn't want to get another divorce. Then comes another blow. The Miss America pageant replaces her with a younger winner, which leaves Bess feeling even more insecure and depressed. It's the late 60s, and everything is changing. Culture, expectations, and opportunities for women. And Bess starts asking herself the same question a lot of women are asking at that moment. Is this all there is? But soon she's going to get an unexpected opportunity, one that could give her a new sense of purpose if she's brave enough to take it. In early 1969, Bess gets a call from the office of New York City Mayor John Lindsay. She's shocked when he offers her a job. Commissioner of Consumer Affairs. It's not the most glamorous job, but John thinks Bess's fame could draw attention to consumer rights issues and make his administration look good in an election year. Bess is intrigued. She's always had strong opinions, and this would give her a real platform to help everyday New Yorkers. But she's also nervous to try something so different. This isn't a game show. It's real life. Somewhat surprisingly, Arnold is the one who hypes Bess up and encourages her to go for it. He gives her books about consumer protection law and even quizzes her while they're on vacation in Palm Springs. At least for now. This opportunity is bringing them closer together. So with his blessing and encouragement, Bess accepts this post. In March of 1969, Bess is sworn in in what the New York Times calls an unusually well attended ceremony at City Hall. Mayor Lindsay even thanks Arnold for allowing Bess to take the role. And Bess accepts the position with pride. My thanks to Arnold Grant for sparing
- [21:16]
Raza Jaffrey
me some time of his charming wife. As I said to him, you're not losing a wife, you're gaining a city. He said, you're also gaining a beautiful woman. All true.
- [21:33]
Bess Meyerson (archive audio)
Thank you very much, Mayor Lindsay. As a native New Yorker, I declare with pride and conviction that this is the greatest city in the United States. It can also be the most difficult.
- [21:48]
Sachi Kol
Right, Mr. Lindsay? Okay.
- [21:51]
Sarah Hagie
Do they know she's right there? Like, do they know she's right there when they're talking about her like that? It's like, hey, thanks for letting me borrow your sexy wife. But, hey, you get the whole city. What the hell is that?
- [22:04]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, it's a lot of people treating her like a prop, which I guess she kind of was in some ways. But Bess hits the ground running. She's in charge of setting up programs that protect consumers and ensure that local businesses operate ethically. As the child of two working class parents who worked hard to provide, Bess can easily relate to consumer pain points. One of her first big projects is a truth in pricing bill, which introduces unit pricing so shoppers can actually compare costs. Sarah, do you know what unit pricing is?
- [22:35]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it's one of those things I see, I guess, when I visit New York mostly, But it's kind of how much something costs, like the individual unit. So it'd be per pound or ounce or item, and I guess it would just help you compare prices. It just helps you make an informed decision about how much money you're spending on something, Right?
- [22:54]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, exactly. And at the time, this is a new idea. Even though a lot of companies push back, the idea is popular and the law passes within eight months. Bess helps push through some of the toughest consumer laws in the country. It's a huge win, and people feel like Bess is really looking out for them. Bess is crushing her new job, but privately, things are unraveling. Her marriage is teetering once again, and she's suffering from depression. So in the winter of 1969, she heads to London to visit her daughter Barra, who's now 21. And while she's there, Bess goes into Harrods one day and shoplifts a sweater. The police are called, and she begs them to just let her pay for it. She has the money, but they arrest her instead. And when she gets outside, she makes a run for it, but she's caught and brought to the station.
- [23:47]
Sarah Hagie
Bess, I feel like this kind of shoplifting is often a response of your life being uncontrollable, just trying to do something insane to get a rush. And I'm really sad that happened.
- [23:58]
Sachi Kol
I mean, listen, name me a woman who hasn't stolen something dumb to feel alive. Just let her pay for it. After three hours of questioning, Bess is told to come back the next day for a hearing. But she never shows up. Instead, she flies back home and tries to forget all about it. Back in New York, Bess and Arnold begin leading separate lives. By March 1970, the couple is barely speaking when Bess goes to the hospital for a facelift. And while she's gone, Arnold reads Bess diary. And what he finds is brutal. He reads that she despises him, and he finds a love letter from another man. Sarah, can you read part of what it said?
- [24:38]
Sarah Hagie
It says, I have little or no illusions about you, Bess, for I know you more than in the biblical sense. There is nothing delusionary in my love for you. Okay. Romantic af. Sorry, Biblical. Damn. I know what that means.
- [24:56]
Sachi Kol
Well, there's even an entry where she writes, quote, if Arnold would die, I would have the safety and security of a house, a place to exist. I would then reach out to new experiences and have people around me.
- [25:09]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I mean, it's clear that she really wants an out. And her even just, like, fantasizing about what would happen if he died is so clearly her trying to figure out how to leave him without doing the right thing. You know what I mean?
- [25:26]
Sachi Kol
Yeah. And by July 1970, the marriage is over. Bess is at City hall when she's served divorce papers. By the time she gets home, Arnold has changed the locks. Arnold cuts her off financially, even calling source to cancel her credit. He then reminds Bess that he has pages from her diary and can release them if needed. With her public image at stake, Bess finally agrees to the divorce. Her marriage may be finished, but at least she's in a good place financially. After saving most of her income over the last few years, she has a nest egg of roughly a million dollars, and she's now earning around $25,000 a year from her new job, which is a little more than $200,000 in 2026. Within a year, Bess life looks completely different. In July 1971, Bessie she's featured in Life magazine with the headline A Consumer's Best Friend. And now, with her marriage behind her, Bess is ready to see where her new political career can take her. Bess is so popular as the consumer affairs commissioner that there's talk of her running for mayor. But after a few years on the job, Bess is over the 10 hour work days, she resigns and becomes a consumer affairs consultant for Citibank, earning $100,000 a year, which today would be over $700,000. It's a big shift. Less pressure, a lot more money. And for a moment, she even seriously considers running for Senate. But then everything changes when she's diagnosed with ovarian cancer. Bess is only 49 at this point, and alone, and she keeps her diagnosis fairly quiet. Worried that Citibank will cancel her contract, Bess has a hysterectomy, but the Recovery is brutal. 18 months of chemotherapy leaving her weak and sick, and still she often pushes herself to go to work straight from her chemo appointments. Eventually, Bess is declared cancer free, but the experience changes her. She doesn't feel ready to run for office anymore, but she also doesn't want to disappear completely. So she attends political events and endorses other candidates, like her good friend ed Koch. In 1977, when he's running for mayor of New York, Bess goes all in for him. Hitching her star to Ed's wagon is going to pay off for Bess big time. But it also sets the stage for what comes next. Because a bigger spotlight comes with bigger risks, and Bess is about to put everything she's built her reputation, her career, her second act on the line for a man.
- [28:02]
Leon Nayfak
I'm Leon Nayfak, best known as the host and co creator of podcasts Slow Burn, Fiasco and Think Twice Michael Jackson. I'm here to tell you about my show, Final Jerry Springer, whose name is synonymous with outrageous guests, taboo confessions and vicious onstage fights. But before the Jerry Springer show became a symbol of cultural decline, its namesake was a popular Midwestern politician and a serious minded idealist with lofty ambitions. Through dozens of intimate and revealing interviews with those who knew Springer best, I examined Springer's lifelong struggle to reconcile his TV Persona with his political dreams and aspirations. Named one of the best podcasts of the year by the New Yorker and Rolling Stone, Final Jerry Springer is a story about choices, how we make them, how we justify them to ourselves, and how we transcend them. Or don't Listen wherever you get your your podcasts or binge the whole series ad free right now on Audible. Start your Audible subscription in the Audible app.
- [29:03]
Raza Jaffrey
I'm Raza Jaffrey and In the new season of the Spy who, we tell the story of Dr. A Q. Khan, the spy who sold nuclear secrets to Iran. He was the scientist spy who stole nuclear technology from the Netherlands and used them to give Pakistan. But he didn't stop there. He became a black market atomic salesman, the fix it man for rogue states seeking nuclear weapons, including Iran, Libya and North Korea. And that left the CIA and MI6 in a race against time to put him out of business before the world's most wayward regimes get hold of the world's most destructive weapons. Follow the Spy who now wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also listen to the full season of the Spy who Sold Nuclear Secrets to Iran early and ad free on Audible.
- [30:04]
Sarah Hagie
I feel like
- [30:09]
Sachi Kol
It's Columbus Day, 1977. Bess and Mayoral candidate Ed Koch are sitting in the back of a limo, trying to make their way to a parade, but they're stuck in traffic. Ed's team is frantic. The driver is so hopeless he backs into another car's front bumper. Then, while everyone is losing it, Bess calmly tells Ed that she'll take care of it. She steps out of the car wearing a blazer, turtleneck, sweater and skirt, and confidently marches over to the police policeman. Before her colleagues can even get their bearings. Bess gets directions and navigates Ed to the start of the parade. At this point, Bess is the co chair of Ed's mayoral campaign and also the face of it. Frankly, more voters recognize her than him. And it's working. Now that she's taken Ed under her wing, his poll numbers are rising. But there's a problem. Rumors are swirling about Ed's sexuality, and although Ed denies the claims, they won't go away. Especially because one of his opponents has been spreading the rumors to benefit his own campaign. And that man is none other than Mario Cuomo. His campaign even starts using the slogan Vote for Cuomo, not the homo. Wow.
- [31:21]
Sarah Hagie
It is rotten all the way to the top with those Cuomos.
- [31:25]
Sachi Kol
The roots, the seeds, the apples, the leaves. Everything.
- [31:30]
Sarah Hagie
Everything. Wow. Terrible.
- [31:32]
Sachi Kol
Well, to help dispel the rumors, Bess goes with Ed everywhere. They hold hands and kisses. He even teases that she'd make a great First Lady. And it works. On November 8, 1977, with Bess by his side, Ed beats Mario to become the 105th mayor of New York City. But while Bess helps with Ed's image, her own personal life is a different story. She's still looking for love. And the next relationship she falls into is going to bring out a side of Bess that borders on Madness. It's 1977 and 34 year old Joan Ray is rebuilding her life. Joan is a divorcee and single mom, but she's making the best of it. She's beautiful, with blonde hair and a warm smile, and newly in love. The man she's seeing is John Jacobson, a 48 year old financier with curly hair and tortoiseshell glasses. She thinks they're headed for marriage until he meets Bess Meyerson at a dinner party. Soon after, he breaks things off with Joan and she is devastated. Things between Bess and John heat up quickly, but after about four months, the relationship cools. Jon leaves Bess and starts dating other women, including Joan. But as soon as she and John get back together, Joan starts getting harassing phone calls. About 50 times a day, someone calls and hangs up as soon as she answers. And the calls continue for months. Eventually, John shares a theory. He suspects the calls are coming from Bess. He tells Joan that once, after Bess realized he was seeing Joan again, he came home and found Bess inside his apartment rummaging through his stuff. And she didn't even have a key. Joan isn't convinced. Bess is beautiful, well connected and rich. Maybe she's heartbroken, but why would she risk her reputation by making creepy phone calls? But when Joan finally calls the telephone company, they trace the phone calls to payphones a few blocks from Bess apartment and near the mayor's house, where Bess spends a lot of time. But even though everyone suspects it's Bess, John declines to press charges. And then Joan starts getting anonymous letters in the mail. The letters are cryptic, but seem to imply that John is cheating on Joan. They also mention Joan's appearance and make it clear whoever is writing them is very familiar with the couple's movements. Sarah, can you read some of what the letter said?
- [33:57]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. It says, do you know that John has another woman? She's beautiful and bright. They carry on at the Carlisle and at her place in Scarsdale. They're in constant touch with each other. Check his phone bills. Wow. Another says, let your hair grow in. A bleached blonde is ugly these days. And they were all signed the same way. More follows. Okay, Bess you need to stand up. No man is worth this. I think at this point, Bess, as much tragedy as she's endured, she's kind of used to getting things her way and using her beauty and her charm to get what she wants. I think it's kind of breaking her that it's not working this time.
- [34:38]
Sachi Kol
A man will embarrass you every time, Sarah. Yes, well, Joan is scared, but when people suggest she go to the police, she shrugs it off. Why would the cops care about some silly letters? Plus, right around this time, Bess is officially launching a campaign for the Senate. Joan sees her on TV looking professional, confident, and beautiful. She's sure John is the last thing Bess is thinking about. But John is convinced. He confronts Bess, and she claims she's also been receiving letters. When Joan calls to commiserate, Bess demands to see Joan's letters and then refuses to give them back. Joan suggests they turn them over to the police, but Bess insists the press coverage would hurt her Senate run. And then things escalate. That summer, Joan and John are at the beach in the Hamptons for a little R and R when they look over and discover Bess right next to them doing jumping jacks.
- [35:33]
Sarah Hagie
So this is like an 80s erotic thriller now. Yeah, she's doing Fatal. Fatal Traction. Yeah, at the beach.
- [35:43]
Sachi Kol
Well, Joan doesn't know what to do at this point. Bess behavior isn't just strange, it's downright frightening. And for Joan, the whole situation seems deeply unfair. She's a single mom just trying to live her life. And this is Bess Myerson, a public figure and possible future senator. But Bess seems to feel like she's the one who's been wronged. The last straw is when a shopping bag is delivered to John's apartment with a literal pile of shit inside. John has had enough. He confronts Bess and threatens to go to the police. But Bess beats him to it. She goes to the cops first and claims she's also receiving threatening letters, and she demands that they investigate the matter. Her plan backfires. Investigators later conclude that Bess made the phone calls and sent the letters, although they can't prove that she sent the bag of shit. But the cops tell John and Joan that there's not enough evidence to pursue criminal legal action.
- [36:36]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I mean, Bess is smart. I think Bess was kind of reckless to a point, knowing that she would get away with not getting charged. In that sense, yeah, probably.
- [36:49]
Sachi Kol
While Joan and John are ready to leave all of this behind them, eventually they get married, but Bess has a harder time moving on. Her life is spiraling. And the next man she meets, someone who works in the city's sewer system, is about to bring Bess down to his level. It's September 1980, and Bess is devastated. She spent the last year and about a million dollars of her own money vying for a seat in the Senate, and she's just lost a Democratic nomination. So now she's sitting in a hotel room near Times Square trying to get ready for her concession speech, but she can't stop crying. Bess stylist keeps redoing her makeup over and over. Bess really thought that this was her moment. She had the resume, thanks to her work as a consumer advocate and the political connections. But she was facing far more experienced candidates. And on the campaign trail, she came off as out of touch, out of her depth, and entitled. Eventually, Bess pulls herself together and walks on stage holding a bouquet of roses. The audience watches her toss flowers into the crowd, looking just as composed as ever. Some people even say that her concession speech is the best speech she gave throughout her entire campaign.
- [38:04]
Sarah Hagie
I admire her risk taking in a time when being a woman and running for office is like, obviously worse than it is now in many ways, but it just seems like she wants attention more than she actually cares about, like doing anything. It's like this constant search for validation and approval.
- [38:26]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, exceeding expectations at a figurehead position is one thing, but this is the Senate. When it's over, reality sets in and she needs a job. So Bess asks Ed Koch for a role in his administration and he says no. We don't know exactly why he turns her down. Maybe it's because Bess, once sterling public reputation, has taken a hit from her campaign. Or maybe it's because Ed has his own battles as mayor now. Either way, Bess is shocked when he says no. She feels like a shadow of the woman she once was. But there's one man who doesn't see her that Andy Capasso. Andy's a wealthy 35 year old contractor who lays sewer pipes for the city. He's also 21 years younger than Bess. He was born the same year that she won Miss America. Andy met Bess at a party during her campaign and was immediately taken with her. And at a time when she feels abandoned by her party and friends, this comes as a comfort. Sarah, can you read what Besslater said about this time?
- [39:27]
Sarah Hagie
She says, after the election was over, everybody in my campaign ran to the other candidate. When you lose. People don't know what to say to you. They don't call you. Andy was the only person who picked up the phone. I feel like losing something probably does make you a pariah in some way, especially when it's politics. And, you know, if we know one thing about Bess, is that she's going to latch onto a man.
- [39:51]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, she will. Well, then things get even heavier. Bess father passes away. And soon after, Bess has a minor stroke, which leaves her with speech difficulties. After three weeks in the hospital, she makes a full physical recovery. And Andy was there through it all. He even picks Bess up from the hospital. And from that point, their relationship is on. But her friends are worried. He's not the type of guy they would expect for her. He never even went to college. And he's louder and more crass than the men she usually dates. And then there are his ties to the Mafia.
- [40:27]
Sarah Hagie
Honestly, that makes him sound cool. Like, why not try something new? Bess, you keep going around to the same guys. This younger guy is into you. He's a bit dangerous. He's helping you out at your lowest point. Can't really argue.
- [40:41]
Sachi Kol
Well, that's exactly right to Bess. He feels different. Andy is caring and attentive, always asking her what she needs. After a lifetime of taking care of herself, it's refreshing. Andy also allegedly promises to help her recoup the money she put into her campaign. There's just one problem. He's married to a woman named Nancy, and they have five kids.
- [41:04]
Sarah Hagie
Okay, so Bess just goes after guys who are unavailable. Yeah, she wants to be picked. She's a pick me up.
- [41:10]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, she's doing Ariana Grande. Before Ariana Grande was doing Ariana Grande. It's a whole thing. Well, after her campaign ends, Bess moves all of her stuff into Andy's office and they start spending more time together. Andy tells his wife that he has late night meetings and stops coming home as much. Bess throws herself into her new relationship without any regard for the family on the other side of it. But Andy isn't married to a wallflower, and Bess is about to find that out the hard way. It's three in the morning, and Nancy Capasso is lying awake, unable to sleep. Her husband Andy isn't home again. He says he's under a lot of pressure at work, but she feels like he's taking it out on her and she can't figure out why. Nancy is a beautiful brunette with green eyes, and by this point, she and Andy have Been married for more than a decade. They have two kids together. And Andy has been a loving stepfather to her three kids from a previous marriage. They live in a gorgeous home in Manhattan and want for nothing. On paper, everything is solid, but underneath, something is breaking. And then one night, Nancy gets a glimpse of it. She's having dinner with a friend at a Chinese restaurant where she often eats with Andy. And suddenly, there he is. He walks in alone and heads to the the back room. So Nancy follows him and finds him sitting with Bess. Bess is 20 years older than Andy. So Nancy writes off this weird encounter until a few months later when they're invited to Bess daughter's wedding. At the reception, one of Bess friends reportedly walks up to Nancy and says, quote, hey, can't you see what's going on? Nancy doesn't know what they're talking about, but it can't be good.
- [42:56]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, Nancy, I'm sorry. You are really naive. You just think because she's old, your man won't leave you. No, we're talking about Bess, okay? She's an expert at this.
- [43:08]
Sachi Kol
She invented it.
- [43:09]
Sarah Hagie
She invented it. She knows what she's doing, honey.
- [43:12]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, well, at home, Nancy confronts Andy, who tells her she's being paranoid and denies the affair. But then a maid hands Nancy cold, hard proof. Apparently, at some point, Andy had bugged their home phone line trying to see if Nancy knew about his affair. But he accidentally recorded himself leaving a very touching message for Bess. Their maid heard it and gave the tape to Nancy. Sarah, can you read some of what the recording says?
- [43:40]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. Oh, brother. It says, hi, baby, how are you? I'm so sorry I didn't have any opportunity to call you sooner. I love you. I miss you. Think of me. And then he made kissing noises before hanging up. You know, it's cool when there's a technological mishap that has nothing to do with texting the wrong person or emailing the wrong person. This is classic. It's a voice recording. Yeah.
- [44:08]
Sachi Kol
Pretty low tech mistake. Yeah, all things considered. Well, now Nancy finally has the proof she needs to file for divorce. But they're still living under the same roof and things turn volatile. One day when he's leaving the house, his daughter asks, quote, dad, are you going out with your girlfriend again? And Andy loses it. He must think that Nancy has been talking badly about him to their kids. So he hits Nancy. He screams, throws her over a glass table and kicks her. After that, Nancy goes to family court to keep him out of the house. The next month when Nancy is leaving the house to see Cats on Broadway. She's served with divorce papers, and Andy wants custody of their two kids, the Fifth Avenue apartment, the condos in Palm beach, and their West Hampton beach estate. Nancy is floored. But she's also done being passive. She's determined to right the wrongs done to her and get the spousal support she deserves. But as their divorce battle heats up, Bess will be pulled directly into it.
- [45:09]
Sarah Hagie
Foreign
- [45:12]
Sachi Kol
It's June of 1983 and Hortons Gable is hosting a dinner party. Hortense is 70 years old, petite and frail, with short dark hair and enormous glasses. She's been nearly blind since childhood. She's a widely respected judge and a longtime advocate for civil rights who was appointed to the New York State Supreme Court in 1975. Now Hortense is working the marriage circuit, and she just so happens to be the judge overseeing Nancy and Andy's divorce. Although Nancy and Andy aren't invited to her dinner party, Bess Meyerson is Recently the two women have grown close. A few months before, Ed Koch had finally come through for Bess and named her Cultural Chair Commissioner. Recently, Bess invited Hortons to an event at the Mayor's mansion, and she even asked Hortons for advice on a government proposal. Tonight, Hortons is hoping Bess might help someone else her 39 year old daughter, Sukrit. Sukrit has short brown hair and a cherubic face. Sukrit is brilliant, Oxford educated, fluent in three languages, but she is struggling. She left her Dutch diplomat husband when she got too bored, and she recently left her doctoral program at the University of Chicago to return to New York to find work. But she struggled to get a job, perhaps because she can be intense and a little off putting. Her given name is Julie, but she changed it to Sukrit, which is an Indian name meaning someone with the tradition of happiness. And her name change might be Secrete's way of trying to manifest some happiness, because for as long as Hortons can remember, her daughter has suffered from extreme depression. Hortons is desperate to help her, so she introduces her daughter to Bes, who has agreed to meet Sukha at the party. Hortense is thrilled when the two seem to hit it off. Beth spends most of the night talking to Secrete, and a few days later she invites Secrete to join her at the opening of the New York Shakespeare Festival in Central Park. The two start spending more time together, and Bess eventually offers Secret a job in the Department of Cultural Affairs. It looks like a Lucky break. But at the same time, something else is happening. Andy, Capasso's Lawyer thinks Andy's $1,500 monthly alimony payments to Nancy are too much, so Hortense reduces it by half. Andy's lawyers keep pushing, and in September, Hortons lowers the payments even more, leaving Nancy with one third of her original monthly payment.
- [47:38]
Sarah Hagie
This is so gross. Honestly, to me, this does seem like an arrangement, if you ask me.
- [47:45]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, I mean, it's either actually corrupt or it really looks like it. And then the press gets wind of what's happening. The New York Post breaks a story about the connection between Hortons, Bess and Secrete. Nancy's attorney allegedly tipped them off. Hortons picks up a copy of the paper on her way to work and is shaken to find her name on the front page. Meanwhile, things between Bess and Secrete start to sour. Sokrit is sidelined at work and moved to a desk near the bathroom. At one point, Secrete tells her mom she was crying in the bathroom when Bess came in and told her quote, you've gotta learn to roll with the punches, kid. Eventually, she quits.
- [48:24]
Sarah Hagie
Bess is so mean.
- [48:25]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, I mean, I think the world made her mean.
- [48:28]
Sarah Hagie
That is like movie villain type behavior.
- [48:31]
Sachi Kol
Well, Hortons is disappointed, and this all starts to feel like a mistake. She risked her reputation and in exchange, she's gotten a sordid mess and an unhappy daughter. Now the story is out there and the press is circling, and it's only a matter of time before the legal system catches up.
- [48:53]
Leon Nayfak
I'm Leon Nayfak, best known as the host and co creator of podcasts Slow Burn, Fiasco and Think Twice Michael Jackson. I'm here to tell you about my show. Final thoughts. Jerry Springer, whose name is synonymous with outrageous guests, taboo confessions, and vicious onstage fights. But before the Jerry Springer show became a symbol of cultural decline, its namesake was a popular Midwestern politician and a serious minded idealist with lofty ambitions. Through dozens of intimate and revealing interviews with those who knew Springer best, I examined Springer's lifelong struggle to reconcile his TV Persona with his political dreams and aspirations. Named named one of the best podcasts of the year by the New Yorker and Rolling Stone. Final thoughts. Jerry Springer is a story about choices. How we make them, how we justify them to ourselves, and how we transcend them. Or don't listen wherever you get your podcasts or binge the whole series ad free right now on Audible. Start your Audible subscription in the Audible app.
- [49:56]
Sarah Hagie
I feel like a legend.
- [50:02]
Sachi Kol
It's June 1986, about two years after secrete left the job Bess got for her. And Bess is on her way to meet with the first time in ages. She waits in the lobby of Secrete's apartment building wearing sunglasses and her hair wrapped in a scarf like she's going undercover. As they walk outside, Bes offers up some pleasantries. But according to Crete, Bes doesn't stay polite for long. Says Bess looks at her and tells her to, quote, keep your fat mouth shut. You could do me a lot of harm.
- [50:32]
Sarah Hagie
Imagine seeing someone who, like you, low key, are scared of in your lobby, and you're like, oh, hey, how's it going? And then she's like, keep your fat mouth shut. That's crazy. I mean, I feel like Bess is at her breaking point for sure. She's becoming increasingly reckless.
- [50:47]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, now she's the one who sounds like she's in the Sopranos. Bess is stressed because the pressure is building around Andy. Investigators have been looking into allegations of fraud in his business, and there's a sense that charges might be coming. If that happens, anyone connected to him could get pulled in, which means Bess has a problem. If investigators start digging, they could uncover her connection to Hortons and Secrete. Bess stresses to Secrete that if she ever talks about how she got the job, it could expose Hortons to serious legal consequences. But Secrete is a wildcard. So when Bess later takes the stand, she plays it safe and pleads the Fifth. And while it's her constitutional right to do so, politically, this is a disaster. Ed is furious. He asks a retired judge to quietly look into what's going on, and what he finds is troubling. The report suggests that Bess hiring of Secrete may have improperly influenced Hortense's ruling in Andy's divorce case. Ed must be shocked. He makes sure the report isn't published, but he reaches out to Bess and asks her to resign. It's a hard moment for Bess. She and Ed are friends, and she helped build his political career, and now she's being pushed out.
- [51:58]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I feel like Bess believes she can do whatever she wants if she's had success. You can't work for someone, help them out as much as you do, and be like, well, it should be okay that I'm doing something corrupt. It just doesn't work that way.
- [52:12]
Sachi Kol
Well, to add salt to the wound, in July 1987, Nancy wins her appeal and is awarded $6 million from Andy. Can you describe this picture in the New York Post when the ruling comes out.
- [52:22]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, it is a headline. And Nancy's on a couch. She's got a beautiful sweater. She's got a glass of wine. She's beaming. She's smiling from ear to ear. And the headline says, the $6 million woman. Good for you.
- [52:36]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, I'm happy for her.
- [52:38]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah.
- [52:39]
Sachi Kol
Meanwhile, everything around Andy is starting to collapse. In January of 1987, he's found guilty of evading $774,000 in corporate and personal income taxes and is sentenced to four years in Allenwood. That's when Bess realizes she's going to need to spin things. She calls everyone she knows to tell them that even though she pled the fifth, she didn't do anything wrong. She even spends eight hours on the phone with one reporter in a full blown monologue reiterating how much she's accomplished and saying that everyone is just jealous of her. That phone call turns into New York Magazine's March 23rd cover story. The headline reads, quote, bess and the Mess Myerson slide into scandal. From there, stories about Bess and her hiring of Secrete begin to dominate headlines for days. And in June 1987, Hortense resigns from her post. That fall, the U.S. attorney for the Southern district of New York, Rudy Giuliani, indicts Bess, Andy, and Hortense for conspiracy and mail fraud. Plus, an additional charge of obstruction of justice is filed against the Bess for telling Secrete to keep quiet.
- [53:45]
Sarah Hagie
Ooh. Oh, my God. It is all coming crashing down. For Bess, it really is.
- [53:51]
Sachi Kol
And Bess starts cracking under the pressure. In May 1998, she's caught shoplifting a pair of sandals, earrings, and batteries from a local store. To be clear, this is not about money. Bess had $160 in cash on her, and the shoplifted Items were worth $44.07. At this point, she's also estimated to be worth around $16 million. Instead, it seems like shoplifting was a compulsion, a little secret that helped her feel powerful and in control. But this little impulse grab ends up in the tabloids with a story titled, quote, oh, no, Bess.
- [54:28]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I mean, what else could you say? It's like, bess, come on, you're already dealing with all this, and then you give in to your compulsion.
- [54:34]
Sachi Kol
While this story dredges up her past, including her long forgotten theft from Harrods in London years ago, Bess is finally forced to pay the fine she's owed for the past 19 years. For decades, Bess carefully Crafted her image. Beauty queen, television star, public servant. Now all of it is unraveling. And the spectacle is so messy and so public, it earns a name that no one will. The Bess mess. It's October 1988, and 64 year old Bess walks up the courthouse steps wearing a black and white striped suit. A sea of photographers is waiting for her, but she passes them without stopping. Bess is due in court today with Andy and Hortons. Andy is still in prison, so he's being transported in for the proceedings. An interview Bess gave to the New York Post at the time gives some insight into how she was feeling. Sarah, can you read what Bess said?
- [55:30]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. She says, life is very painful. I had a bad first marriage, but from it came a daughter. I had a bad second marriage, but from it came a second career. I have lived with cancer. I must live even with the foolish parts of me. So now what I have to do is get through this with dignity. That means grace under pressure, whatever the end may be. So may it be. I mean, this sounds like someone who is facing a reckoning. What else could you do? You have nowhere else to run. Gotta accept what's gonna happen.
- [56:00]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, but behind the scenes, Bess is falling apart. She's lost 15 pounds, is barely sleeping and is chain smoking. Plus she isn't working, so she has nothing to distract her. Still, if you saw her in that courtroom, you'd never know it. At the defense table, she appears as graceful and composed as ever. The prosecution begins their case, stating that it's about money, greed and an abuse of power. They rely heavily on their star witness, Sukrit, who they hope will prove motive and intention. But unfortunately, her testimony only makes her seem like an unreliable narrator. She even admits that after months of electric shock treatments to treat her depression, her memory is, quote, as filled with holes as Swiss cheese.
- [56:43]
Sarah Hagie
This headline is crazy from the New York Post. My mind's like Swiss cheese. I'm going to use that as a descriptor now. What do you want me to do?
- [56:51]
Sachi Kol
It's a great line, but not for a star witness. And the public is shocked that Sikrid is testifying against her mother, a frail, elderly judge now fallen from grace. So as the trial moves on, public opinion shifts. The outrage softens and is slowly replaced with sympathy for Hortense and for Bess, both women who broke barriers and built careers in spaces that didn't easily make room for them. After four months, in December 1988, the verdict comes. All three defendants, Bess, Andy and Hortense. Are acquitted. When Bess hears the verdict, she looks at Andy, grabs his arm and cries. She kisses him. Before the court martials take him back to his holding cell. Sarah, can you describe this photo taken of Bess outside on the courthouse steps?
- [57:38]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it's an incredible photo. Bess looks totally un euphoric. Eyes closed, like, looking up at the sky. And she's surrounded by microphones and cameras and journalists trying to get a word out of her, but like she's on another planet. She's just beyond happy.
- [57:54]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, she looks really excited. Bess has always been preoccupied with her image. But despite her best efforts to always seem calm and in control, her blunders were so loud and wild that they also shaped her legacy. Bess might be a mess, but if there's one place you can go to make yourself over, it's Hollywood. After she's acquitted, Bess leaves New York and eventually makes her way to California. She occasionally gives lectures and does charity work, but for the most part, she chooses to live a more quiet life. In 1997, she pledges $1.1 million to the museum of Jewish Heritage in Manhattan. She also creates a $100,000 scholarship fund for the Anti Defamation League and works with an organization that provides free support and counseling to women with breast and ovarian cancer. On December 14, 2014, Bess died at home in Santa Monica, California. She was 90 years old. A few years before her death, in an interview with Ladies Home Journal, she was asked what she was doing after all the scandals and drama. And she told them, quote, why must I be doing something all my life I've been doing? For now I'm busy being. Being quiet, being grateful. Finally, finally, it's time for me. Not the public Bess Meyerson, the private me. Okay, I know I always say people should get divorced, but people really should get divorced. And I think Bess is great, but she could have been amazing if she had just never been with any men. You know, all of her harm comes from dudes.
- [59:30]
Sarah Hagie
Bess really had a type. Not to, like, try and psychoanalyze her, but, like, she started off her life with so little control and obviously so much trauma and things happening to her that wasn't really her choice that I think she kind of went off the deep end with her free will and kind of did whatever she wanted.
- [59:49]
Sachi Kol
Yeah.
- [59:49]
Sarah Hagie
And expected nothing really bad to happen. Yeah.
- [59:52]
Sachi Kol
I think in a lot of ways, beauty protected her. And so she was always looking for situations where her good looks would take care of her. And so that's obviously happening a lot in her interactions with men. What I think is so frustrating about her is the same thing that she was concerned about in her divorces is sort of what she was doing with this, you know, divorce proceeding with Nancy. Like, she was terribly abused. So was Nancy. She leaves her husband because. And then he has spent all of her money. Nancy can't really go anywhere because he has her in a vice and won't pay her the alimony that she deserves after raising all of his children and taking care of him and keeping a home like that is what's so terrible about this is like, you know what? Bess Meyerson was always gonna be okay. She was always gonna have a soft landing. Cause she was always gonna find work, and she always had name recognition. She knew the mayor. Like, he was never really gonna let her drown. But to commit those acts on another woman are so. It's so cruel.
- [60:46]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, 100%. I really do think it's like this thing where she thinks what she went through meant she was allowed to do whatever she wanted to other people and that. Like, she already went through the pain, whatever. Like, why should she care about someone else going through it? She survived. They'll survive kind of thing, you know,
- [61:03]
Sachi Kol
I feel like Bess really exemplifies a version of feminism in every era that she lived in. Right. Like, she goes into this Miss America pageant, which is sort of the first of its kind. And it was a scholarship, and it meant opportunity. And then she starts, you know, working in government more. And then, you know, she has these divorces. Like, she was kind of a modern woman, but always held back by these very particular restrictions around women.
- [61:30]
Sarah Hagie
Women back then had to deal with, like, the craziest shit that was, you know, not that it ended, but, you know, it was so much harder in so many ways. And none of that generosity extends after their struggle. It's kind of like. Well, I dealt with it. It seems like she didn't really, like, learn anything from terrible things that happened to her. It just made her more entitled.
- [61:49]
Sachi Kol
Yeah.
- [61:50]
Sarah Hagie
I think by the end, when it seems like she learned her lesson, it's mostly because the currency she used to get away with everything didn't exist anymore. She's too old. She's too old to get away with, like, being a beautiful woman stealing a man. Like, the last chance she had was with Andy. Her reckoning kind of happened when she didn't have any other choice.
- [62:10]
Sachi Kol
I mean, I think if I've learned anything, it's what I've already known, which is never let a man get this close to your money.
- [62:15]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I really think it comes down to don't trust a man with your money and don't go into cahoots with him to try and get a ton of money because it will. You will end up forgotten in the dust and in trouble.
- [62:26]
Sachi Kol
That's always our lesson. Never be in cahoots with a man.
- [62:29]
Sarah Hagie
No, don't be in cahoots with a man and believe in yourself. Okay?
- [62:33]
Sachi Kol
Don't kahoot with him. Be in cahoot with self and not with other.
- [62:38]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, exactly. Great.
- [62:45]
Sachi Kol
Follow Scamflancers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamflancers ad free by joining Audible from Audible Originals this is Bess the Best Mess for Scamflancers. I'm Sachi Kol.
- [63:01]
Sarah Hagie
And I'm Sarah Hagie. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us@scamfluencersoudible.com we use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were Queen Bess, An Unauthorized Biography of Bess Meyerson by Jennifer Preston Bess and the Mess by Patricia Morris Rowe for New York Magazine Compromising Bess Meyerson and Her World by Marie Brenner for Vanity Fair and Bess Meyerson is One Tough Customer by Susan Berman for New York Magazine.
- [63:34]
Sachi Kol
Alison Weintraub wrote this Additional writing by us Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggie. Olivia Briley is our story editor. Our senior producers are Sarah Enni and Ginny Blume. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Fact Checking by Gabrielle Joliet Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze on Sync. Our executive producer for Audible is Jenny Lauer Beckman. The head of Creative development at Audible is Kate Navin. The head of Audible Originals North America is Marcia Louie and the Chief Content Officer is Rachel Giazza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound recording Copyright 2026 by Audible Original.