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- [00:01]
Sarah Hagie
Wondering, Sachi. I think our age group was kind of coming up around the time when, like, very certain nerds became obsessed with the idea of, you know, having a startup. Did you know any of these kinds of people, Sarah?
- [00:24]
Sachi Cole
I dated one.
- [00:26]
Sarah Hagie
Oh, my God.
- [00:27]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I know.
- [00:29]
Sarah Hagie
He wore a puka shell necklace. I'm so sorry.
- [00:32]
Sachi Cole
Thank you.
- [00:33]
Sarah Hagie
That really must have been really scary for you.
- [00:35]
Sachi Cole
It was pretty hard and I feel really brave for having gone through it at such a young age.
- [00:40]
Sarah Hagie
I feel like I found it particularly insane because it was obvious these people weren't just trying to get rich. It was like they want to really cosplay as like, I'm a brilliant weirdo who wears the same thing every day, you know? Yeah.
- [00:57]
Sachi Cole
It's not enough to be successful.
- [00:58]
Sarah Hagie
They have to be unique in their.
- [01:00]
Sachi Cole
Success and it usually means that they don't do anything at all.
- [01:04]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. Well, today I'm going to tell you about a woman who thinks founder is a proper noun and an entire identity. And when it came time to choose between changing the world and making her fortune, she robbed one of the biggest banks in the world. In plain sight. It's April 2012, and Michael Gibson is in San Francisco filming a CNBC reality competition show called 20 Under 20 Transforming Tomorrow. Michael is a young, handsome guy with a beard and tousled hair. He's a vice president of grants at the Thiel foundation, which is run by Peter Thiel, the infamous right wing tech investor. Today, Michael is serving as a mentor to around 50 eager, ambitious young entrepreneurs who are competing to win a fellowship from the foundation. The fellowship comes with $100,000, which the winners can use to fund their startup. Plus they'll have access to powerful mentors. But there's a catch. Thiel fellows are expected to dedicate two years to the program, so they either have to skip college or drop out. The competition attracts a lot of oddballs, but even in this crowd, one contestant stands out. A young woman named Charlie Javice. Charlie is a student at the prestigious Wharton Business School at Penn. She's 20 years old with long brown hair and piercing blue eyes. At first, Michael is intrigued. He gets the sense that Charlie thinks she's better than everyone else and is a bit too comfortable name dropping. But those aren't necessarily bad things. In the cutthroat TEC or on reality tv, the contestants compete in a series of challenges meant to test their grit, teamwork and ideas. Today's competition includes a scavenger hunt, but Charli decides she doesn't want to collaborate with any of her teammates. The judges on the show later allege she blew it off entirely to go shopping the next day. Charlie's attitude gets even worse. The contestants have to pitch a panel of judges, but during her presentation, she refuses to play by the rules. She walks away from the podium even though she was warned that would mean no one could hear her. And then she goes over the two minute time limit. The judges have to cut her mic.
- [03:31]
Sachi Cole
Uh, obviously none of this is great behavior, but I have to say, she sounds like reality TV gold. I'm rooting for her somehow.
- [03:43]
Sarah Hagie
Well, the judges think Charlie is off putting and cocky. One of them says, quote, I didn't see a single bit of humility. But Michael stands up for Charlie. He said her aggressiveness could be an asset. She's pushing boundaries and going after what she wants. Still, Michael and the other judges aren't sure what she's actually done since she started her company. Charlie's project aims to lift people out of poverty through microloans. She claims she's built a micro financing curriculum that's been taught in Bay Area schools. But when it comes to actually providing loans, it seems like her company is mostly just a landing page. How can they be sure she can run a successful startup? The final nail in the coffin is that Charlie doesn't seem to think a Thiel fellowship is worth all that much. I even, like, try to explain the.
- [04:32]
Sachi Cole
Fellowship and I'm like, wait a second.
- [04:34]
Sarah Hagie
What crazy person would take this two years? Is it really worth 100 grand? Like, really? I've made a network that's if not comparable, if not better than what Teal has to offer me. Only in Silicon Valley.
- [04:49]
Sachi Cole
I'm happy for her. She seems to live free because she is dumb. Because that's just like, not true. And also not a smart thing to say on a show like this.
- [04:59]
Sarah Hagie
It's kind of awesome. Unsurprisingly, Charli doesn't get the fellowship. But a couple of months later, Michael sees a Tumblr post from her company claiming that she quit the competition because she didn't want to drop out of college. The blatant lie pisses Michael off, but he was right about Charli's attitude. Her relentless self promotion and aggressive personality are attractive to backers. Soon, Charlie will convince some powerful supporters that she might be a unicorn and they'll entrust her with hundreds of millions of dollars. But Charlie's grand ideas will turn out to be nothing but fantasies. From Wondery. I'm Sarah Hagie.
- [05:47]
Sachi Cole
And I'm Slachi Cole.
- [05:48]
Sarah Hagie
And this Is scamfluencers. Come and give me your attention I won't ever learn my lesson Turn my speakers to 11. I feel like a legend. Like a lot of smart, ambitious young people, in the early 2000s, Charlie Javice wanted to save the world and get filthy rich doing it. And thanks to her proximity to power and privilege, she charmed investors in the financial media, raising money and attention for a series of companies that claim to help people in need. But after years of playing the fake it till you make it game, a big bank finally calls her bluff. But Charlie's willing to lie through her teeth, even when facing down serious prison time. This is Charlie Javice. Fake It Till youl Break it legend. Charlie Javiss is born in 1992. Her dad is a banker from France, and her mom gets degrees in education and substance abuse counseling and later runs a life coaching business. The two divorce when Charlie is 8 years old. After that, Charlie and her younger brother split their time between each parent's modest house in Westchester County, a wealthy New York suburb. Though her family isn't as rich as many of their neighbors, Charlie and her brother still enjoy plenty of privileged perks. She attends a private French language school where tuition starts at $34,000 a year. She spends summers in Israel and Paris where she develops a love of fashion. She's also a horse girl.
- [07:24]
Sachi Cole
Ah, yes. Only the richest amongst us get to be horse girls. The rest of us have to settle for different animals.
- [07:31]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I mean, if you have a horse, you're rich. Even if you have, like, an interest.
- [07:35]
Sachi Cole
In horses, like understanding the concept of.
- [07:39]
Sarah Hagie
A horse is socioeconomically middle class, even imaginative. Proximity to a horse is wealth. Yes? Correct. Well, Charlie's school is a typical upper class institution full of very rich, very ambitious kids. At one point, her father gives a speech at the school about how students could build their own businesses. This is an ethos Charlie seems to take to heart. She seems to learn early on that she can stand out by being scrappy, forging her own path, and knowing how to work the system. Charlie's grades aren't amazing, but she bulks up her college applications by starting a community soup kitchen and spending a summer teaching English along the Thailand Myanmar border. This voluntourism trip doesn't just look good on her resume, it also feeds her ambition. When she comes back, Charlie decides to become a teen startup founder. She's inspired by a recent Nobel prize winner, Bangladeshi economist Muhammad Yunus. Muhammad is the godfather of something called microlending. Sachi, do you know what that is.
- [08:45]
Sachi Cole
Uh, it sounds like teeny, tiny loans. Like cute little baby loans.
- [08:51]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, they are small. So basically the idea behind microlending is that small amounts of money, like $100 can make a huge difference for entrepreneurs in developing countries. In theory, it helps lift people out of poverty with relatively low risk for investors. And because many of the businesses are owned by women, microlending is also seen as a way to advance gender equality around the world. And since the buy in amounts are small, students and young people can meaningfully participate too. Charlie wants to build an online platform to help students find microlending opportunities for start microfinance clubs and even connect with clubs at other schools. She calls the company pavrup, presumably because she's helping lift people up from poverty. All of this, by the way, is happening before she even graduates high school. Like a lot of young people at this time, Charlie believes that a young person with a dream can change the world and make a lot of money while doing it. Now all she needs to do is convince other people to invest in her idea. It's 2009 and Howard Finkelstein is at an NYU event for the Microfinance Club of New York. But Howard isn't a student. He's a middle aged lawyer with a gray beard and a round face. And he specializes in helping enthusiastic tech entrepreneurs navigate government regulations, hiring and fundraising. This event has attracted a lot of young, ambitious would be change makers. But one of these people stands out to Howard. She's effortlessly chatting with adult executives. When Howard talks to her, she shakes his hand and introduces herself as Charlie Javice. Charlie tells Howard about Poverup. She says that when she was volunteering in Southeast Asia, she saw how far a couple hundred bucks could go. And she believes American students can play a big role in helping launch entrepreneurship opportunities around the world. She says she wants to end poverty with a click of a mouse. She'll later tell the Philadelphia Business journal she wants PowerUp to be, quote, the Facebook of microfinance.
- [11:07]
Sachi Cole
So, like, very fundamentally, I don't really know what that means, but I do think that sucks because like, Facebook's bad. I think we've all agreed and the Facebook of anything is like not good. So this is just not an apt metaphor for something non evil.
- [11:23]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I think she's saying, I want this to be the thing that makes me the richest I could possibly be. Yeah. This might sound a little grandiose, but at this moment, microfinance is really popular and Howard is inspired. He thinks Charlie is funny, opinionated and driven. She's got a unique angle on a huge global trend, and she's ready to get things going as quickly as possible. Maybe too quickly. After Charlie asks Howard to help her launch Paverup, he finds out she's only 17. He tells her she needs to get her parents permission first. That's not a problem for her. As Howard helps get Paver up off the ground, he notices that Charlie has her dad wrapped around her finger. Her dad, Didier, sits on Paverup's board, and during one meeting, she openly challenged him. But Didier wasn't angry. He was proud. Charli's mom, meanwhile, posts supportive updates about her daughter on social media. And although Howard never acknowledges this directly, this is a period where people are eager to boost entrepreneurial young women. So eager that they sometimes skip out on doing their due diligence. It's the era when Elizabeth Holmes is raising tens of millions of dollars for her biomedical testing company, Theranos, and having the kind of meteoric rise Charlie dreams of. Charlie is about to make a big step toward making that dream real. Howard is delighted when he learns she's been admitted to one of the most prestigious business schools in America, the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania. It's the perfect place for Charlie to learn the fundamentals of running a startup, but instead she's focus on a different major, promoting her personal brand. Once Charlie gets to Wharton in the fall of 2010, she really gets to work building Paver up. She becomes one of the first ever freshmen invited to join a student startup incubator. She's also part of the Student Entrepreneurs Club, which operates out of a sparse co working space and offers students tantalizing perks like tap water and occasional air conditioning. Charli claims to be taking classes at the law school and in the MBA program. On top of her core curriculum, she says she's doing some social impact consulting as well. But she's just as focused on building her personal and professional brands, including name dropping and embellishing details to make Paverup sound bigger than it actually is. Some people buy the hype when she's a sophomore. Inc Magazine ranks Paverup as one of the 11 coolest college startups. A month later, she gets listed as one of Fast Company's 100 Most Creative People in Business. And around this time, Pavverup is doing well enough to open an office in Manhattan. But the world is starting to move on from Charlie's business model. News outlets suggest that instead of escaping poverty, some microfinance borrowers fall into crippling debt and are even driven to suicide. None of these cases are related to Pavarup. But investors start cooling on microfinance in general. And when one journalist asks Charlie how Pavrop will protect borrowers, she says she believes her company's core values will prevent anything like that from happening.
- [14:51]
Sachi Cole
One thing I think I always knew, but maybe has been solidified by this show, is that anytime someone talks about their company's core values, something has gone wrong. Like, if you have to pull out that bullshit line, oh, oh, you're probably getting indicted.
- [15:09]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. I mean, also, it's like, so what are they?
- [15:11]
Sachi Cole
Like, yeah, what does that even mean?
- [15:13]
Sarah Hagie
What does that mean? It's total bullshit. And also, it's not just that Charlie is naive or that the microfinance boom is cooling off. She simply doesn't have the resources to build the technology she needs. She outsources the work to a team in India, but it takes a long time to get everything set up, which leaves Charlie on the back foot. Still, she knows how to win people over. About a year later, in 2012, is when she's invited to compete for a Thiel foundation fellowship. That's the reality show moment from earlier in the episode. And while she doesn't make the cut, she makes connections with famous investors and organizations like the Harvard Leadership Institute. A few months later, Charlie tells Wharton magazine that Pavarup has raised $300,000 and that she's basically batting away investors with a stick. Her goal is for Pavarup to operate on more than 500 campuses and make $10 million worth of investments by 2016. She says they're working on partnerships with business development groups in the South Pacific and Latin America and with a global solar powered lantern company. They plan to launch the platform with five initial investment projects. But there's still a huge amount of work to do. And from Charlie's perspective, her staff doesn't take Paverup seriously enough. Relying on students means they're often busy with midterms, papers, and other activities. Even after all the attention and enthusiasm, Paverup never really kicks into gear. Charlie eventually abandons the company during her senior year before she graduates in 20. 13. Years later, at least one of the organizations Charlie claimed was working with Pavarup, told Forbes it had no record of any partnership. And one of Pavarup's board members says the company never gave out a single loan. Charlie's first major project has also become her first major failure. But she still has an entrepreneur spirit. She's not ready to give up. She just needs her next big idea. Soon after Charlie graduates, she starts a new company called tapt, spelled T, A P D. It's supposed to help creditors decide whether they should loan money to young borrowers. Basically, Charlie wants to reinvent the credit score. By 2015, she's ready to take meetings with potential investors. But in these meetings, she never actually explains how tapped is supposed to work, because she doesn't know herself. PowerUp was supposed to hand out tiny loans, and it never even got off the ground. Now Charlie is trying to disrupt a massive industry regulated by complex state and federal laws. And she's trying to raise $10 million, which is a lot of money, but nowhere near enough to build a compliance ready credit product. By the time Charlie realizes that she's taken on an impossible task, she's burned through half a million dollars. And she even has to fire almost her entire staff, including several friends. A few of these friends never speak to her again.
- [18:26]
Sachi Cole
Have you ever been laid off by a friend? I was thinking about this and, like, if you can kind of like get it together to stay friends after.
- [18:35]
Sarah Hagie
I haven't, but I feel like I've been laid off by, you know, a manager I've been friendly with, but also, like, it wasn't their choice.
- [18:42]
Sachi Cole
So, yeah, I have been laid off by a friend, but only because of forces out of their control. I've never been laid off by a friend who, like, owned the company and fucked up and. Yeah, I probably wouldn't be able to talk to them again.
- [18:54]
Sarah Hagie
I wouldn't talk to them ever again. Yeah, I would just be like, I can't do it. I'm sorry. Yeah, I will sabotage you and probably kill you one day if we stay friends, you know? Correct.
- [19:02]
Sachi Cole
Good to know. I love when you reveal thyself.
- [19:07]
Sarah Hagie
You would too. Well, Charlie has failed a second time. But instead of reconsidering her dream of being an entrepreneur, she treats it as a learning experience. She pivots again, this time into student loans. Charlie wants to streamline the financial aid process for American college students. The U.S. department of Education oversees the Free Application for Federal Student Aid, or fafsa. But FAFSA can be a tough process to navigate. So Charlie wants to build an easy to use website that will help students secure the best possible loan package. She's basically trying to do for FAFSA what TurboTax does for filing your taxes. And to be fair, Charlie is trying to solve a real problem. Even Bill Gates has spoken out about how complicated FAFSA is. And Charlie knows all about it from personal experience. She says she struggled to navigate the financial aid system at Wharton. Her parents stopped sharing financial information with each other after their divorce, which made it harder to fill out loan applications. And on top of that, her dad lost his job during the 2008 financial crisis. Charlie claims she spent six months fighting with the university's financial aid office trying to get a better deal on calls that occasionally left her mother in tears. Here's Charlie describing the ordeal on the Ed Up Experience podcast. It was so painful.
- [20:35]
Sachi Cole
I got in early to the school.
- [20:37]
Sarah Hagie
That I went to, and trying to actually, like, potentially not be able to.
- [20:44]
Sachi Cole
Enroll because of financial aid to the.
- [20:47]
Sarah Hagie
School of my dreams was just, like, completely heartbreaking.
- [20:51]
Sachi Cole
Sarah, we talk about this all the time. That, like, the American school system is so complicated and it asks so much of teenagers.
- [20:58]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah.
- [20:58]
Sachi Cole
And, like, Charlie has firsthand experience with, like, a real problem, but she's also contributing to a cottage industry of people trying to exploit other people because of this problem. Like, this is not a real solution.
- [21:13]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. I mean, it's not even close to a real solution, but, you know, she'd have to, like, have good politics to find the solution to this. And for what it's worth, this might be slightly exaggerated. Years later, a representative from Penn says it's highly unlikely the process would have taken as long as Charlie says. Either way, this story perfectly fits the pitch for her new startup. For this company, Charlie finds a partner through her connections in Israel. His name is Adio mensi, and in mid-2016, he becomes a co founder and chief technology officer in exchange for 10% equity in the company. A couple of months later, they open an office in Israel, and Adi becomes the vice president of research and development. By August, they have a very basic website where students can join a waitlist. And they have a new company name, Frank. Charlie picked it because she wants the name to evoke honesty and transparency. You know, like being Frank. She also wants to conjure the image of a friendly, helpful uncle. They haven't actually built the platform yet, but Charlie tells investors that thousands of students have signed up. She doesn't think she's doing anything wrong. Startups are all about faking it until you make it.
- [22:31]
Sachi Cole
That sounds bad, but I do think that's probably true. But it doesn't feel good to say, oh, yeah.
- [22:38]
Sarah Hagie
I mean, I think that is kind of how people who do startups see it. All right, and in March 2017, the company completes a $5.5 million fundraising round. But one of the investors, an early backer of WeWork, recommends replacing ADI and just a few weeks after the fundraising round closes, Charlie fires him. She tells him he isn't meeting her expectations for a VP and that his software is faulty. But the timing is hard to ignore. In June, Charlie learns that Adi is suing her in Tel Aviv for failure to pay wages and refusing to hand over the 2.5 million shares he's owed. Maybe Charlie was willing to throw her partner under the bus to chase investor money. Or maybe she was taking the advice of a more experienced and influential advisor. Either way, at the tender age of 25, Charlie is already learning the highs and lows of being a founder. And she's dead set on recapturing the hype she once had and finally becoming the success she believes she should be. No matter what. I feel like a legend. With her initial funding secured, Charli spends the rest of 2017 raising a reported $10 million for her student aid startup. By now, Charlie has a new motto, Profit for Purpose. She's honed her skills as a tech founder and fundraiser. She talks about seeing her mom cry while dealing with Wharton's financial aid office and says that her Holocaust survivor grandparents always emphasized the importance of education. When she pitches potential investors, she explains that Frank will be free for students, with most of the money coming from universities who will pay to use the program and be a featured school on the site. Plus, there's also Frank Premium, which costs users $10 per month and guarantees $1,000 in tuition savings. Frank has already launched a tool that helps students apply for financial aid. The company will also offer students cash advances on their financial aid, help them appeal their aid offers, and even offer accredited online courses. Investors eat it up. She also brings in a private equity billionaire who ends up joining Frank's board. This all helps to legitimize Charlie's business and attract more money. Charlie also finds a new right hand man, a Canadian businessman named Olivier Amar. Olivier has a close cut beard, bushy eyebrows, and deep brown eyes. He's been living in Israel with his family and running a data privacy startup. But he picks up his whole life and moves to the United States to work as Frank's chief growth acquisition officer. Soon, Olivier and Charlie become very close. Olivier is loud and aggressive. He's constantly hyping Charlie up and goes after anyone who disagrees with her. They grow so insular that they start ignoring any outside opinions. And yes, their relationship is weird, but not for the reason you might be thinking. Olivier is married with kids, and he and his wife refer to Charlie as their honorary daughter.
- [26:02]
Sachi Cole
That kind of intimate language is so weird. And people use it in workplace settings all the time, and it's always weird. But this kind of, like, insular relationship feels like a really fertile ground for fraud.
- [26:15]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, absolutely. It's not professional. That isn't how people are supposed to work together. Yeah, things are looking up for Frank, but the company still faces some roadblocks. The Department of Education sends them a cease and desist letter accusing Frank of violating FAFSA's trademark. They claim that Frank's website, frankfafsa.com could confuse students looking for the actual FAFSA application website. Charlie agrees to change the URL to withfrank.org and to publish disclaimers clarifying that Frank is not affiliated with the Department of Education and the rebrand comes with a perk. The.org address actually makes Frank sound less like a startup and more like a benevolent nonprofit. Towards the end of 2017, Frank Charlie rolls out Frank for the media. She writes an op ed for the New York Times about the complexities of the FAFSA process and why a platform like Frank is needed. But the piece is riddled with so many errors that the Times has to add a 117 word correction. The rest of tech and business media doesn't seem to care that Charlie doesn't know what she's talking about. She becomes a regular on CNBC and appears on lists of promising young entrepreneurs, including Forbes infamous 30 under 30. She's interviewed by the Wall Street Journal and profiled in Business Insider. It's not hard to see why people like interviewing her. Charli gives great soundbites. In one interview, she says her favorite quote is from the Will Ferrell movie Talladega Nights. Always remember, if you ain't first, you're last.
- [27:56]
Sachi Cole
I think it's really beautiful that she's joining the rich pantheon of tech ding dongs who don't understand satire.
- [28:03]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, and also like, I hate when these tech people try and have personalities. You don't have one. You don't have one.
- [28:09]
Sachi Cole
Just. Just be weird.
- [28:11]
Sarah Hagie
Just be quiet and weird. You know, you might expect Charlie to overcompensate by being a hard ass, but by most accounts, she's actually a pretty good boss to her 18 employees. Years later, some of them describe her as friendly, laid back, and sincere in her desire to help students. The staff are paid well and they all believe in the mission. Sure, Charlie buys into the founder aesthetic of wearing jeans and hoodies most of the time, but she also takes the women in the office to get their nails done in the middle of the day. Throughout all this, Charlie is still projecting success. Towards the end of 2018, she tells Business Insider that Frank has helped 300,000 students access $7 billion in financial aid. And we don't know for sure that this is inflated, but if it's accurate, it means each of those students got, on average, more than $23,000 through Frank. Charlie also claims that Frank is adding 2,000 families a day to its customer base. It seems like Charlie is finally hitting her stride as an entrepreneur and providing a real service to at least some real customers. But soon a massive crisis will hand her a new opportunity to fulfill her promises or exploit the very students she says she's trying to help. It's the spring of 2020, and Wesley Whissel is doing the same thing everyone else is doing looking at his computer. Wesley is a clean cut 29 year old with trendy glasses, blonde hair, and a beard. He works at the New America think tank as a senior advisor for higher education policy. And today he's looking at Frank's website because he's trying to figure out if they're the real deal. In March, Congress passes the CARES act, which allocated billions of dollars in emergency aid to students. Frank quickly added a tool to their website to help students access CARES money. Charlie has been doing interviews to get the word out, including one in Yahoo Finance, where she promises that Frank can help students secure $5,000 in grants. Wesley thinks this sounds too good to be true, so he tries to use the website himself. The first thing Wesley is prompted to do is identify why he's applying for aid. He can pick from a few different options. Maybe he was fired or furloughed, is working fewer hours, or is just facing unexpected expenses. They all seem like good reasons to be applying, but none of them are actual eligibility requirements under the CARES Act. Wesley also notices that Frank leaves out important criteria, like the fact that students who were already online only before the pandemic are mostly ineligible for aid. The deeper he goes, the less convinced Wesley becomes that Frank is helping anyone. The online form claims to be an application that lets students apply for aid through the site, but when he finishes filling it out, the tool just collects his info and sends him a templated email letter he's supposed to send to his college, because in reality it's the individual universities that distribute CARES funds, not Frank. This doesn't pass the smell test, so Wesley starts reaching out to university financial aid offices. He learns that each school has their own way to determine eligibility, so an email template like the one Frank offers may not even be useful. They also tell him that most of their grants are only for a few hundred dollars, which is way less than the $5,000 Charlie bragged about. Worst of all, Wesley learns that most universities have already distributed the bulk of their CARES money, despite Frank's claim that only 1% of the aid has been used.
- [32:07]
Sachi Cole
Okay, thank God for Wesley, because he decided to make some calls.
- [32:13]
Sarah Hagie
Well, also, I'm so curious how other people who were trying to access this money weren't like, wait a second, this isn't making any sense.
- [32:20]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I guess they just thought they did something wrong because the system is built to be obtuse.
- [32:25]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, exactly. And now Frank is making it worse. Wesley thinks these applications are wasting vulnerable students time and giving them false hope during a major crisis. He thinks the company is misrepresenting the CARES act in order to collect students data. In July, he publishes a blog post summarizing his findings for the New America website. Sachi, can you read an excerpt? Yeah.
- [32:50]
Sachi Cole
He wrote, quote, capturing student data under the guise of helping them get pandemic relief. Money that's likely been spent already is bad enough, but doing so without actually helping them, well, that's the worst use of the never waste a crisis mentality. Uh, yeah, that's pretty gross. Thinking about this in the context of the pandemic too, is like, these are especially vulnerable students.
- [33:15]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. And just remembering how everything was for people at that time, the sheer desperation, everyone had to be like, I can't be totally broke, I can't work, I can't do anything. People I know are dying. It's so insane.
- [33:27]
Sachi Cole
Yeah.
- [33:28]
Sarah Hagie
Just a couple of weeks later, four members of Congress send a letter to the Federal Trade Commission urging them to investigate Frank, citing Wesley's findings. And in response, the FTC sends Frank a stern warning. Four months later, Wesley has tried to call attention to Frank's questionable practices, but for now, Charlie can keep plugging away. And the very practices that got her in trouble are about to make her company look even more appealing to a new big banks. It's July 2021, about a year after Wesley published his blog post, and Leslie Wims Morris is about to get on an important zoom call with Charlie. Leslie is a 50 year old woman with a smart Bob haircut and a professional but trendy sense of style. She's the head of corporate development at JPMorgan Chase. Corporate development means that Leslie oversees acquisitions, and this is a very busy time for her. The US Stock market is booming, interest rates are low, and JP Morgan, the world's biggest bank is on what the Financial Times will later call a quote, acquisition spree. They're hunting for companies that represent new customer bases JP Morgan wants to tap into. And that's where Frank comes in. A few months earlier, one of Frank's investors sent an executive there. Some of the glowing press on Charlie. Now, Frank has made it clear that it's open to being acquired by a larger institution. And its target demographic, young people just starting to make major financial decisions, is very desirable to J.P. morgan. So Leslie has been asked to meet with Charlie to see if she lives up to all the media hype. Leslie joins a zoom chat from her fancy office at J.P. morgan's Park Avenue headquarters. Charlie, who has moved to Miami beach, joins from her apartment. Charlie launches into her pitch for Frank. She says the company has a user base of more than 4 million and that she expects this number to balloon to 10 million by the end of the year. And she says they have personal contact information for a lot of students. Most importantly, Charlie assures Leslie that 70% of Frank's customers are in the 18 to 24 age range, the exact demographic Leslie has been told to target. There are some reasons to be skeptical of Charlie's pitch. She's suggesting Frank will grow to have a user base of 10 million students, which would be about 65% of all undergraduates enrolled in US schools. Charlie also claims Frank works with more than 6,000 schools, but there aren't even that many universities in the U.S. but Leslie later says that like many investors, she found Charlie to be, quote, very knowledgeable, very articulate and very engaging.
- [36:22]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, she would have to be because she doesn't have anything real.
- [36:27]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I mean, just goes to show how much having an awesome personality, like where it can take you, you know.
- [36:33]
Sachi Cole
I mean, that's why we're here, Haggie.
- [36:35]
Sarah Hagie
True, very true. But also there's something else that likely moves the needle for J.P. morgan. At some point, the bank learns that a competitor is making a play for Frank. If JP Morgan doesn't move fast, it could lose out on the potential to get millions of new customers. So Leslie schedules preliminary meetings between Charlie, Olivier and a team at JP Morgan. And within two weeks, the bank puts in an offer to buy Frank for $175 million. That deal gives them an exclusive three week window to complete due diligence and finalize the acquisition. With the clock ticking, Leslie kicks off JP Morgan's due diligence effort. It involves nearly 350 employees and is so big it has a nickname, Project Finland. Leslie later testifies that JP Morgan's internal projections estimate that buying Frank could generate fund $500 million in revenue for the bank. At one point, Leslie forwards an investor letter from JP Morgan's CEO Jamie Dimon to her team. She's underlined some sections, including a line that said, sometimes, quote, there's no need to do analysis at all. Leslie later testifies that this was intended as a tongue in cheek joke to her team.
- [37:53]
Sachi Cole
I don't really understand what the punchline is. It sounds like she maybe meant it and then had to double back.
- [37:59]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, but I studied the law and she's actually protected under joke law. So if you say it's a joke, then it's. Yeah, right.
- [38:07]
Sachi Cole
Joke law. I forgot.
- [38:08]
Sarah Hagie
It's just a joke.
- [38:09]
Sachi Cole
I forgot you were an expert on joke law.
- [38:10]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. If it doesn't land, that's not her problem. And also during this vetting process, Jamie Dimon himself meets with Charlie one on one for 30 minutes. Charlie's lawyers later say that he told her he thought JPMorgan should, quote, get the deal done. So Leslie and her colleagues at JP Morgan are motivated to make the Frank deal deal happen. The two questions that dominate the review are, does Frank actually have 4 million customer accounts? And what kind of contact information do they have for these users? Charlie confirms yes, they do. And they have a mix of contact information like emails, phone numbers, mailing addresses, and other personal details. Leslie later testifies that she has 100% belief in Charlie's assertions. But not everyone shares her faith in Charlie. One person wonders how they can possibly verify Charlie's claims. Another executive says she's worried Frank's customer data might be inaccurate. So Leslie and her team ask Charlie for her list of users. At first, Charlie pushes back. She says it would be a violation of user privacy. After some back and forth, they find a compromise. Charlie will hand an encrypted version of the list to a third party verification firm which can check the data without violating user privacy. Leslie's pleased. As long as the data checks out, she'll make sure J.P. morgan acquires Frank. But Leslie is about to learn that when it comes to rising star founders, not everything is as it seems. Charlie is usually pretty cool and collected, but after Leslie asks for her customer list, she starts panicking. Remember how she told JP Morgan that Frank had 4 million users? That's technically true. Kind of. A few months ago, Charlie decided that anyone who visited Frank's website counted as a user. Even if the company doesn't have any of their information, the real number of people who have actually signed up to use Frank is about 300,000, and they've completed fewer than 150,000 FAFSA applications. It's not nothing, but it's probably not enough to keep JP Morgan on the hook. Charlie is in a tough spot. After years of exaggerating her success, a massive bank has basically called her bluff. If she wants the deal to close, she has to make it seem like she has data for 4 million people. So she and Olivier begin contacting firms to buy customer emails. Olivier finalizes a deal with a marketing firm to buy 4.5 million student data records for more than $100,000. But only about 2.5 million of those records include email addresses. So Charlie decides she has one option. Make the data up. She hits up Frank's head of engineering, a guy named Patrick. Patrick is handsome and French, and for a while he was trying to date Charlie. He sent her flowers, cards, photos and made her playlists. Charlie eventually had to have Frank's head of human resources put a stop to it. But now she's turning to him and asking if he'll create millions of fake users. Patrick refuses. He doesn't want to do anything illegal. According to Patrick, Charlie laughs off his concerns and tells him in French that she doesn't, quote, intend to end up in an orange jumpsuit. But he isn't convinced.
- [41:46]
Sachi Cole
There's a lot happening in this episode where people are just saying the thing that is gonna happen. This sounds like fraud very clearly and I hope Patrick can hear that.
- [41:58]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, and it's also awesome that everyone's data is just out there to buy and sell, you know?
- [42:03]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I mean, I assumed we all knew that.
- [42:04]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it's a great feature of our beautiful world.
- [42:07]
Sachi Cole
Super normal, feel safe.
- [42:10]
Sarah Hagie
After being rejected by Patrick, Charlie turns to an old Wharton classmate, a guy named Adam. He was getting a PhD in statistics when they were at school together and now he's a math professor in New York. Charlie texts Adam and asks if he can create the synthetic data. Adam later testifies that he was led to believe Frank really did have more than 4 million customers, but that Charlie wanted to protect their personal information. That's a common use for synthetic data, and Charlie says she'll pay double his hourly rate. So Adam pulls an all nighter. He takes Frank's actual user data and creates so called lookalike data that would appear legitimate at first glance. He later testifies that he thought whoever was using the data would know it's synthetic and that if they'd done due diligence like Say, calling a handful of the phone numbers. They would have figured it out pretty quickly. When Adam finishes the data set, he submits it to the third party verification company. And they confirm, yes, the file contains more than 4 million records. Later, an executive from the third party firm testifies that they asked if JP Morgan wanted his company to do more thorough vetting, like verifying that the phone numbers were real. But JP Morgan declined.
- [43:29]
Sachi Cole
This is why people don't think the banks deserve to be bailed out, because they don't give a shit. What do you mean you decline to verify basic stuff? This is the corporate version of when you and I are like, why didn't anybody Google anything?
- [43:42]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it really is. I mean, the number is so high that there just should have been some phone calls. Enough phone calls to just be like, okay, well, there's a few hundred real people here, you know? Oh, it's so insane. And shortly after the database was verified, JP Morgan agrees to buy Frank for $175 million. Charlie will get $28 million, plus a $20 million bonus to stay on through the transition. Then she'll become a managing director at the bank with a $300,000 annual salary. Olivier will get $7 million, a $3 million retention bonus, and he'll also become an employee of the bank. And for four months, Charlie is on top of the world. She's become a multimillionaire founder just a few months shy of turning 30. But she isn't making the greatest first impression at her new job. At some point, JPMorgan starts an internal investigation into allegations that Charlie misused company credit cards for personal expenses. Then, in January 2022, she gets an email from JP Morgan's marketing department. They want to launch a campaign targeting some of Frank's users, and they need her customer list. The real one. Charli panics again, because the list she used definitely won't stand up to scrutiny. Charli has been backed into a corner. So she and Olivier tell their new colleagues that actually, Frank only has 1 million marketable users. 1 million is a lot less than 4.5 million, but it's still way more than the number of users Frank actually has. And that same month, Charlie gets a scary reminder of what could happen if she gets caught. When Elizabeth Holmes is found guilty in her fraud trial. When Charlie hears the news, she texts Olivier that she hopes Elizabeth gets a light sentence. She says the verdict is discrimination and that, quote, investors should be blamed.
- [45:46]
Sachi Cole
Um, discrimination against what? Hot bitches? What do you mean?
- [45:50]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it's discrimination against women. Who have nothing.
- [45:54]
Sachi Cole
Nothing going on.
- [45:55]
Sarah Hagie
No real, tangible ideas that go anywhere. Right?
- [45:59]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, that's tough.
- [46:00]
Sarah Hagie
With or without discrimination. Charli is right to worry. A few months after handing over the list, she gets bad news from her bosses. The marketing department emailed Frank's user list, and out of the 440,000 emails they sent, only 28% reached a working inbox and only 1.1% were opened. Later, Charlie learns that only 10 people actually opened new bank accounts. JP Morgan calls the campaign disastrous.
- [46:32]
Sachi Cole
I think it's nice they can at least be honest about that.
- [46:36]
Sarah Hagie
It's so crazy that, like, a marketing team just showed everything wasn't real brutal, just embarrassing. I would close as a bank if.
- [46:45]
Sachi Cole
I was caught doing this.
- [46:47]
Sarah Hagie
Well, finally, the bank starts looking into Frank, including Charlie's old Frank emails, which contain a lot of incriminating evidence she's cooked. In September, JPMorgan puts Charlie on administrative leave, and they fire her in November. But even though Charlie is at her lowest, the girlbossing has only just begun. Remarkably, Charlie decides to go on the offensive by suing JP Morgan, saying the company launched the internal investigation as a pretext to fire her and avoid paying her $20 million bonus. Days later, JP Morgan files their own suit, accusing Charlie and Olivier of inflating the numbers to make the deal happen. And this isn't just a conflict between Charlie and her former bosses. The deal has come to the attention of the federal prosecutors and the sec. But to Charlie, it seems like being a founder means never having to admit that you failed. And she's about to pull off an Uno reverse so audacious and so costly that JP Morgan might come to regret not letting her take the money and run. I feel like a legend. It's January 2023, and Jamie Dimon is presenting JP Morgan's fourth quarter earnings to investors. Jamie is in his late 60s, with white hair and downturned eyes. He's headed JPMorgan Chase since 2006, steering the bank through financial crises and a pandemic. But some investors calling in today are not exactly pleased, and they criticize Jamie for what they see as a bout of reckless spending, including buying Frank, which ended up being like setting $175 million on fire. Jamie doesn't bother defending the purchase. He admits on the call that it was, quote, a huge mistake. But he says he can't get into the details yet because lawsuits are very much ongoing. Charlie is turning out to be a huge thorn in his side.
- [49:04]
Sachi Cole
That feels like a generous assessment of this woman who is launching them into an unforeseen legal snare.
- [49:13]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. Yeah. I think if he could go back in time and change anything about human history, it would be never meeting Charlie. Yeah, I bet. At minimum, three months later, Charlie is arrested by federal agents at the Newark airport. Charlie is charged with bank fraud, securities fraud, wire fraud affecting a financial institution, and conspiracy to commit bank and wire fraud, potentially adding up to decades in prison. And that's not even including separate charges from the sec. The next month, Jamie's jaw probably drops when the court comes back with a ruling in Charlie's original lawsuit. It says that under the terms of JPMorgan's merger deal with Franklin, JP Morgan is responsible for paying all of Charlie and Olivier's legal expenses, even in the criminal case against the bank. So Charlie pleads not guilty, sending the case to trial, and she goes out and gets the fanciest lawyer money can buy. The guy who has represented Elon Musk, Eric Adams, and Tom Brady. He charges more than $2,000 an hour.
- [50:25]
Sachi Cole
I think this is the most impressive part of the scam. To scam a bank and then have it written in the paperwork that they have to pay for your representation against them. Amazing. I'm putting this in every contract for the rest of my life.
- [50:38]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. And also, I'm just kind of like, charlie, you should have just done something else. You weren't meant to be a startup founder. You're meant to be some type of freaky strategist supervillain.
- [50:48]
Sachi Cole
Let her run Palantir.
- [50:51]
Sarah Hagie
After more than a year of delays, the trial finally begins in Manhattan in February 2025. There's a line wrapped around the block to get into the courthouse, but it's because Diddy's trial is happening in the same building. Charlie sits in the courtroom as the prosecutors make their case. Charlie and Olivier promised JP Morgan too much and had to fabricate user data to seal the deal and cash out for millions of dollars. It's pretty cut and dry. Charlie's defense, on the other hand, makes a lot of interesting arguments. They tried to make the case that J.P. morgan rushed through its due diligence in a hurry to buy Frank before another bank could. Which might be true, but they're basically saying that if someone gets duped into a scam, the scam's no longer a crime. The judge in the case isn't buying it. And can you please read what he tells the court?
- [51:48]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, he said his job is, quote, punishing her conduct and not JP Morgan's stupidity. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's Right, but you would hope that you could also punish JP Morgan's stupidity.
- [52:01]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, exactly. I mean, she's making a point, but also like, you'd have to change the.
- [52:06]
Sachi Cole
How everything works, like how the judicial system works.
- [52:10]
Sarah Hagie
If anyone can do it, it's Charlie.
- [52:12]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I bet.
- [52:13]
Sarah Hagie
And Charlie's team also argues that JP Morgan regrets the deal because it was a business mistake. In July 2022, almost a year after the deal closed, the Department of Education implemented two step verification for FAFSA applicants. Frank can't help with that since it's a third party platform. So the usefulness of Frank as a company is basically completely undone. The trial goes on for six long weeks. It's headline news in the Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg, and it's probably something Jamie has to answer annoying questions about at Davos cocktail parties. But in the end, no amount of media coverage, think pieces, or Twitter debates matter. Charlie's future will be decided by 12 people, her peers, by March 2025. Charlie's life is completely different. She's 32 years old now, and though she's still in the news all the time, it's a far cry from the fawning financial press she's used to. Charlie walks into the courtroom on March 28th wearing a plain white button down shirt and a pearl necklace. Her family is gathered in the courtroom looking worried. She stands in court to hear the verdict and looks numb as she and Olivier are both found guilty on three counts of fraud and one count of conspiracy to commit fraud. A few days later, Charlie is back in court with a special request. Her court ordered ankle monitor is making it hard for her to work while she's being sentenced. See, she has a new job teaching Pilates in South Florida. One of her supervisors testifies about how dynamic Charlie's Pilates classes are, and her lawyers even display photos of her exercising as official court exhibits. The US Attorney says her desire to teach Pilates doesn't override the fact that she is an obvious flight risk.
- [54:11]
Sachi Cole
You know, Teresa Giudice did yoga and Pilates in prison every day and she came up pretty jacked.
- [54:17]
Sarah Hagie
And as the girls know, the girls who love Pilates, like yours truly, Joseph, Pilates created that in prison. I know. So you know, she's kind of close to the true essence of Pilates if you think about it. For months, Charlie waits to be sentenced. Wearing her ankle monitor, more than 100 people write letters of support, including investors and JP Morgan colleagues. They all argue that Charlie is a good person who just made a mistake. Charlie sends her own letter to the judge saying that she made mistakes because she was young and that this whole ordeal has delayed her dream of becoming a mom. She also invokes her Holocaust survivor grandmother's commitment to education. And she says she's afraid of her mother's health as she approaches the age when both her grandmother and great grandmother were diagnosed with cancer. A few weeks later, on September 29, Charlie is brought back into the courtroom to receive her sentence. She asks her parents for forgiveness and dries her eyes with a tissue. The judge tells her she's a good person who did a bad thing, but she still needs to be punished. Charlie is sentenced to seven years in prison. About a month later, Olivier is sentenced to just under six years. There's no doubt that it's a tough pill for Charlie to swallow. However, there is a silver lining. The judge allows Charlie to be free on bail while she appeals her case. And she's definitely going to, because J.P. morgan is still picking up the tab. And Charlie's legal fees to this point have reached more than $60 million. The bank is on the hook for Olivier's bill too, which is more than $55 million. To put that into perspective, Saatchi Elizabeth Holmes spent a comparatively modest $30 million defending herself in the Theranos trial.
- [56:18]
Sachi Cole
I think what is so amazing about this is that they've actually managed to make J.P. morgan pay twice. So once in terms of the actual deal and then the amount of money that they spent on legal fees, it's almost as much as they got in the actual deal. It's kind of genius.
- [56:32]
Sarah Hagie
I know. I mean, listen, of course I have a lot to say about how this ends up, but maybe Charlie's a bit of a leftist icon.
- [56:39]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I mean, she is eating the rich single handedly.
- [56:42]
Sarah Hagie
Well, technically, the judge included those legal fees in the restitution. Charlie will have to pay back as part of her sentence. But in practice, Charlie will pay the bank 10% of what she earns for the 20 years after she gets out of prison. And even a very well paid Pilates instructor is not going to earn enough to pay that back. A month after Charlie is sentenced, JP Morgan files court documents accusing Charlie and Olivier of clear abuse in running up, quote, unprecedented and shocking legal costs, treating J.P. morgan as a, quote, blank check. And it is true that throughout the course of her defense, 19 different lawyers appeared in court to defend Charlie. At some point, she moved on from Elon's lawyer and hired two guys best known for defending Harvey Weinstein. And now that she's Going for an appeal, Charlie's hired a woman who previously defended Sam Bankman Fried. But Charlie's team counters that JP Morgan itself used more than 50 lawyers at six law firms in its defense. As of this recording, JP Morgan estimates it's on the hook for $73 million in legal costs for its former employee. And the appeal hasn't even started. You know, Sachi, this is a story I truly wasn't familiar with in any way. Like, I had no idea this woman existed. And I really did think at first it was gonna be typical kind of startup trash, but she really put that thing down, flipped it, and reversed it.
- [58:18]
Sachi Cole
I don't think we've ever had a case where somebody got the other party to pay for their legal defense and they lost.
- [58:26]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I don't know what she expected to happen because she just never had anything she said she did nothing that she created, did what she said it was doing in a way. And I wonder if she knew that, like, JP Morgan was never really gonna look at it and if she kind of had some type of foresight here or if she really was kind of like, you know what, let's see what happens.
- [58:51]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I've never been able to fully understand what people are thinking when they're pulling scams like this that require, like so many lies and long term lies and like, also hopes for the future that no one is gonna look or that they will look and it won't be your fault. I don't know, but the numbers are so beyond my comprehension. I bet she just, like, was never thinking about the scale of it. Like, she had her company purchased for $175 million. That is so much money for a very young person to get. And then she's billing their lawyers $73 million.
- [59:25]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah.
- [59:25]
Sachi Cole
For her defense. Like, these are not numbers that exist in reality. This is not a person in reality with us.
- [59:31]
Sarah Hagie
Another aspect here in the story is which, like, really was pissing me off at first was just like highlighting the whole startup mentality where they're all like, we can get so rich fixing the world's problems and it won't involve giving anyone anything for real. It's this disgusting lordship idea that's all ingrained in their minds where they're like, I know what's best. And it's actually not to give poor people money and opportunities. It's to make them work for it in a way that I'm designing.
- [60:04]
Sachi Cole
I think there are a lot of people who believe maybe seriously, that, you know, their humanity saving initiatives will make Everybody, a lot of money. And that's not true.
- [60:16]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. It's. You're just kind of like, what? Like none of this should have happened at all. She was so smart. Because again, if they could have just. If they let her go, like, and never went through any of this, they would have saved so much money.
- [60:29]
Sachi Cole
I know.
- [60:29]
Sarah Hagie
Their mistake and clearly they don't care about justice, but, like, you know, no one would have known about it.
- [60:35]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, she almost got away with it. She should have run sooner.
- [60:39]
Sarah Hagie
I agree. I mean, I really want to know what she thinks of it all. Now we see Elizabeth Holmes in prison. She's, you know, creating her little comeback, snowballing for her release, you know, and I wonder what Charlie's gonna do. I need to know what she's gonna do because this is not the last we will see of her.
- [60:57]
Sachi Cole
I'm confident she's gonna get some sort of early release and she is gonna be on an Andy Cohen pretty show and I will watch it.
- [61:05]
Sarah Hagie
I think she might be smart enough to know that attention isn't a good thing for her. I think it's gonna be like a legal show.
- [61:12]
Sachi Cole
Like, it's gonna be her offering legal advice to people. And the advice is just get the.
- [61:17]
Sarah Hagie
Other party to pay for your legal fees. It's a great show. Yeah. I mean, she invented something as impressive as double jeopardy to me, so I'm floored. Anyway, I also feel like, say this company did do what she said it was doing. Would it even be worth that much? No. I don't know who the victim of this scam was because she didn't have real data. She didn't really do any true privacy breach. Her employees seemed to like her, all things considered. And she ripped off a bank. Yeah.
- [61:49]
Sachi Cole
I think the scam goes to the very basics of what she was offering, which is people's email addresses. It was $175 million for email. I mean, even if it was a real business, it was still bullshit.
- [62:02]
Sarah Hagie
For that many millions of dollars, I could have gotten all that data. Yeah. I would have personally gone door to door until my shoes were worn down collecting data for $175 million.
- [62:16]
Sachi Cole
I'll canvass, I'll get some emails.
- [62:17]
Sarah Hagie
I'll get a team. I'll hire a team and we will get the data. I'll open a store that asks for emails.
- [62:23]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, people will give it to you. I'll get that data.
- [62:33]
Sarah Hagie
This is Charli Javice. Fake it til you break it. I'm Sarah Hagee.
- [62:37]
Sachi Cole
And I'm Sachi Kol if you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please us email us@scamflancersundry.com we use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were She's Accused of Duping JP Morgan Somehow the Bank is feeling the heat By Alexander Saidi in the Wall Street Journal How Charlie Javies got JP Morgan to pay 175 million for what, exactly? By Ron Lieber in the New York Times the unauthorized profile of Charlie Javies, the millennial founder convicted of swindling JP Morgan to the tune of 175 million. By Louisa Beltran in Fortune and reporting by Airmail and the Daily Beast.
- [63:16]
Sarah Hagie
Jessica Ford wrote this episode. Additional writing by us Sachi Cole and Sarah Hagie. Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact checking by Kalina Newman. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frisson Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Jeanine Cornello and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our senior producers are Sarah Enny and Ginny Blume. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman and Marshall Louie for Wondery.