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- [00:00]
Sarah Hagie
Hey there, Scamfluencers fans want to be the first to know how these wild scams unfold. Join us on Patreon to get early access to episodes, ad free listening, and exclusive content that reveals even more of the drama. Just search for Scamfluencers on Patreon and dive deeper into the scandal.
- [00:17]
Sachi Kol
We'll be back next week with all new episodes, but in the meantime, we're returning to one of our favorite episodes so far.
- [00:24]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, and for good reason. Now, Netflix recently released the Liver King, a documentary on possibly our most disgusting scammer alum Brian Johnson.
- [00:35]
Sachi Kol
Ah yes, how could I forget? He was always eating balls, I believe. Just a veritable buffet of balls.
- [00:43]
Sarah Hagie
Yes, that's the one. The Liver King became famous with his 6 million followers for promising that they too could become ultra ripped by consuming raw organs, his magic pills, and of course, an intense workout. He made millions off his promises, but as our episode covers, his ultra ripped bod came with a little cheating. Listen to our episode to learn how this scammer rose to prominence. Then check out the Netflix documentary if you want to hear him admit to a new insane scam. He never got caught making drugs in his dorm room and selling them. But be warned, you'll have to watch a grown man eat a lot of balls. This episode deals with body image issues, mental health, and large quantities of raw meat. Listen with care. Wondrin.
- [01:36]
Sachi Kol
You know what's frustrating? When you need cash for something important, but payday is still a week away. That's where Earn in comes in. It's an incredible app that gives you access to your pay as you work up to 150 bucks per day with a max of $750 between paydays.
- [01:51]
Sarah Hagie
Getting started is super simp. Just download the Earn in app and verify your paycheck. Then you can access your money as you earn it and leave an optional tip. Whatever amount you access, plus any tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck.
- [02:05]
Sachi Kol
For unexpected car repairs or vet bills, Earn in can be a lifesaver. Instead of stressing about waiting for payday or putting it on a credit card, you can access your earned wages right away.
- [02:15]
Sarah Hagie
Download Earn in today, spelled E A R N I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store.
- [02:22]
Sachi Kol
When you download the Earn in app, type in Scamfluncers under Podcasts when you sign up. It'll really help the show. Scamflancers under Podcast Earn in is a financial technology company, not a bank. Cashouts are based on your available earnings Standard cashouts take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. Option to expedite your transfer for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service. See the Cashout user Agreement for details. Service is not available in all states.
- [02:47]
Jason Concepcion
If you're an NBA or WNBA fan who loves keeping up with pop culture, you've gotta check out the six Trophies Podcast presented by Aura. In this weekly basketball show, hosts Jason Concepcion and Shay Serrano comb through the spiciest news from the past week, handing out six pop culture themed trophies to six basketball related activities like the Sixth Sense, I See Dead People Trophy given to the player with the biggest comeback of the week, or the Denzel Washington in Training Day trophy for the most dominant performance of the week. And if upping your personal performance is on your mind, our sponsor Oura can help with that. Oura Ring gives you personalized updates about your sleep, stress, activity recovery and more. All from a sleek smart ring so you can win the hackin, you, life better than Bradley Cooper and Limitless Trophy. Check out six Trophies presented by Aura wherever you get your podcast.
- [03:41]
Sarah Hagie
Sachi, I know you go to the gym, but I'm wondering if you've ever gotten into one of those fad workout diets in your time as a gym rat.
- [03:49]
Sachi Kol
A terrible truth about my florid mental health nightmare is that I have done every diet. I have done every fad workout, every fad diet. I've tried them all. That's how I know they don't work.
- [04:01]
Sarah Hagie
Well, I haven't because I'm too scared and too lazy to really be consistent with anything. But as you know, it can be a really easy thing to fall into. And I'm about to tell you a story of a truly crazy fitness and lifestyle influencer who inspired a ton of dudes to go back to their ancestral roots.
- [04:21]
Sachi Kol
Roots.
- [04:21]
Sarah Hagie
And that meant eating a ton of raw meat. Okay, Sachi, I'm going to start by showing you an Instagram video from November 2022. In the video, there's a guy sitting on a stool in the Mongolian forest. He's got piercing blue eyes and a super burly beard. Snow falls all around him and yet he's wearing a T shirt. But what's most shocking is what the man's holding. You gotta check this out.
- [04:50]
Sachi Kol
Okay, so he is a big beefcake. He's sitting in what looks like quite cold weather, wearing a T shirt and like really bad army fatigues. And he is housing a piece of liver the size of a toddler.
- [05:06]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it is very much caveman energy. And this guy actually goes by the name Liver King. But behind the blood and the beard is a man with an entire social media team. He doesn't actually live in this wilderness. At some point after finishing this video, he'll fly back to Texas, possibly on a private jet, where he lives in a sprawling 8,000 square foot mansion with a souped up pickup truck in the driveway and a personal chef cooking in the kitchen. He even has a steam sauna and a hyperbaric chamber. He's built an empire by showing his fans how to live by his code. Inspired by ancient hunter gatherers one TikTok at a time. When it comes to living like a caveman, Liver King knows all. But what he doesn't know is that at this exact moment, his enemies are planning a siege. It's not a threat from an invading army or an attack by land or sea. It's the most modern threat of all. A YouTube video from Wondery. I'm Sarah Hagie.
- [06:15]
Sachi Kol
And I'm Sachi Kol.
- [06:16]
Sarah Hagie
And this is Scamfluencers. And give me your attention. I won't ever learn my lesson. Turn my speakers to 11. I feel like a legend. Liver King wanted his followers to believe his extreme diet and lifestyle were leading to some serious gains. And those gains weren't just physical. Liver King wanted to call attention to how many men struggle with their mental health. But behind all the raw meat and cold plunges, Liver King was succumbing to the same pressures he was trying to fight. Pressures that forced him to start living a lie. This is. Do you even. Grift, bro. Legend. In 1987, Brian Johnson is skateboarding to the movie theater. He's 10 years old and still decades away from becoming Liver King. He's with his older brother in a suburb of San Antonio, Texas. Brian's dad died when he was around three years old, so it's just been him, his mom, and his older brother. The boys have spent all summer outside tackling each other for football or skating to the movies, and Brian loves it. But then middle school starts and things go downhill fast. Brian's friends move away and his brother starts hanging out with older kids. Plus, it seems like everyone else has a growth spurt overnight. But not Brian. He's still short and shrimpy, which makes him a prime target for bullies. He later says that on his first day of school, he gets beat up and it's so bad that he doesn't want to go back.
- [07:52]
Sachi Kol
This is sad. It's tough to be a skinny little boy if you are sort of surrounded by big kids and large men.
- [07:59]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, especially at that age when it seems like everyone's getting bigger except for you. And Brian also has no one left to talk to about how lonely, scared, and sad he is when he talks about it. Years later on the podcast Diary of a CEO, you can still hear the pain in his voice.
- [08:16]
Brian Johnson
And I would look in the mirror, I would look at the clothes that I had. I had absolutely no concept of self worth. I was totally embarrassed, I was humiliated of this kid that I had become.
- [08:27]
Sarah Hagie
That's when Brian decides he will be different. He walks into his garage where his mom's boyfriend left an old weightlifting bench, and he gets to work. He's going to get strong no matter what. Five years later, Brian is 15 years old and he's really gotten into weightlifting. That scrawny kid who got beat up in middle school, he's nowhere to be found. Instead, Brian has a completely new look. Sachi, check out this photo of him. All right.
- [08:57]
Sachi Kol
Well, it's Brian in some tasteful swim trunks in front of a pool. And he looks like if you cut a 15 year old's head off and put it on the body of an adult man who spends a lot of time at the gym, he's quite buff.
- [09:13]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, he is super ripped. And even though he looks like an extra on Baywatch, Ryan thinks of himself more as a lover than a fighter. That is, until one day when a kid at school decides he has a problem with him and picks a fight. A group of kids surround them in the schoolyard, yelling and shoving their way to the front. Ryan doesn't want to fight. He begs the other boy not to hit him. He's worked so hard to fit in and he's still, still getting picked on. He later says in an interview that he blurts out, you don't want to fight me. I'm a pussy. Then he trips and falls. The crowd laughs and boos. Brian lies on the ground full of shame. He later says on Diary of a CEO that his choice to back down that day changes him forever.
- [10:04]
Brian Johnson
Stand up for yourself. I'd rather you look stupid. I'd rather you look like an asshole than look like a pussy. You know you've got to stand up for yourself.
- [10:12]
Sachi Kol
I just would like to say if there are any young men for some reason listening to this show, this overwhelmingly female dominated show, I just want you to know there's so many things that are worse than seeming like a pussy. I can't recommend being a pussy enough. If the options are pussy versus asshole.
- [10:32]
Sarah Hagie
Well, Brian's obviously picked being an asshole. And it's then he decides it's not enough to be strong. You have to be willing to punch back. And from now on, he's never going to back down from a fight again. Brian has been living by his code ever since that fateful day in high school. He doesn't let anyone push him around, and it's worked out pretty well for him. It got him through college and into a good job at a pharmaceutical company. It's a job that allows him to have downtime and take vacations, like the snowboarding trip he takes in 2004, at the age of 27, he's sitting on a chairlift in park city, Utah, when he spots a woman clipping into her snowboard. And as she takes off down the mountain, he feels something inside him. A primal instinct. He later described it on the Savon podcast.
- [11:25]
Brian Johnson
This is what an evolutionary hunter fucking does. You leave the comfort of the cave, I tell my best friend. I'm like, I see a girl, you figure out what you're doing next. I know what I'm doing next.
- [11:35]
Sarah Hagie
In his words, he hunted her down. He finds out that her name is Barbara. She's short and tan with bright blue eyes and killer arms. But Brian Johnson can't see those beneath her snowboarding gear. What must stand out to him is her perfect smile. She's actually a dentist. From the moment they start chatting, Brian knows she's the one. Their courtship is like a hiit workout. Fast and intense. A few months later, they get married. They're just so alike. It's scary. Like, scary scary. Years later, Brian proudly says that after their wedding, they prick their fingertips and let their two bloodstreams become one on a piece of paper. A couple years later, Brian and Barbara settle down in Houston, and Barbara gives birth to their first son, Stryker, with a yellow. They open up their own dental practice in 2008, and it takes off pretty quickly. Then about a year later, they have another son. Brad. Yeah, not Brad.
- [12:39]
Sachi Kol
Rad.
- [12:40]
Sarah Hagie
Brian finally seems to have everything he's ever wanted. Love, respect, and control over his life. But then, as Brian later tells it, Stryker and Rad start getting sick. Really sick. Here's how he later describes it on the Iced Coffee hour podcast.
- [12:59]
Brian Johnson
My kids couldn't breathe. What a horrific feeling this is. Right? When your kids stop breathing, they're turning blue. You give them an EpiPen. It starts to help a little bit, but you don't even know how it happened or how it's going to come back. This is my why in the world. It was my fault. It was what I was feeding them.
- [13:14]
Sarah Hagie
They seem to be allergic to everything. Brian says they're constantly in and out of the hospital and it's breaking his heart. It probably makes him think of the little powerless kid he once was. But now, as an adult, Brian is ready to fight back. He reads everything he can on different diets and lifestyles, and he eventually comes across a book that embraces the health benefits of the ancestral way of living. Sachi, if you were to guess what do you think that would entail, I.
- [13:46]
Sachi Kol
Would assume it means like foraging for nuts and berries and eating grubs that you find under rocks and carving meaningful etchings into the walls of several caves.
- [13:59]
Sarah Hagie
I mean, you would think that would be the ancestral way of living, but actually a huge component of this includes eating animal organ meat, which is the most nutrient dense part of an animal. Health experts seem to agree that organ meat is good for us in moderation. But moderation is not Brian's thing. He throws everything out and replaces all the processed foods with bone, broth and raw liver. Barbara and the kids hate this. Now, we weren't able to corroborate this story, and it does raise a lot of questions, but it's the origin story Brian shares again and again. He says his family eats nothing for three days, I guess in protest of him throwing out everything in the fridge and cupboards. And after those three days, Brian says Barbara, Rad and Stryker start eating the liver. And it turns out they feel great. They have energy and can breathe again. Brian says those allergies just disappear. He believes he saved his family and he starts to think maybe he can save the rest of the world too. It's 2014, about six years since Brian and his family have changed their diet. On the surface, things are going great. Brian and Barbara's dental practice has grown, but that means it's taking up all of their time. Barbara is exhausted and overwhelmed. She can't live like this. One day while driving home from work, she puts on her blinker and pulls into the parking lot of a local park and cries. This is a story Brian later tells on the H3 podcast. He says that when Barbara finally makes it home, she tells him there has to be a better way for them to live. That's when he tells Barbara about an idea he's been thinking about. He wants to tell everyone about the diet that saved their kids. One inspired by cavemen and heavy on animal based food like eggs, organs, and of Course, lots and lots of meat. But Brian doesn't want to just write some recipe book. If just eating primitively can produce so many benefits, what could fully living primitively do? Brian believes in killing your own food, sleeping on a hard surface, and not using sunscreen. He thinks that the modern world and all its comforts are destroying people's self worth. That if people were willing to be uncomfortable, they would learn what they could handle. The idea is a little kooky, but Barbara decides to embrace it. The two of them sell off their dental practice and begin to develop a brand based on Brian's way of life. According to his philosophy, our ancestors spent all their time physically touching, AKA connecting with the earth. We should do the same. So no more shoes or mattresses. He also thinks we should shield ourselves from excessive WI fi and take contrast showers which alternate between hot and cold every 30 seconds.
- [17:03]
Sachi Kol
Okay, well, I mean, he's entitled to being uncomfortable if that's how he wants to live his life. But I guess my question is, like, how does any of this make a business? How does this make money?
- [17:14]
Sarah Hagie
Thank you for asking. So they make money because Brian and Barbara start pushing a very specific type of diet online. It encourages people to eat every part of an animal. He also publishes something he calls the Ancestral Tenets, which promote eating nose to tail. So in addition to eating steak and pork chops, Brian also wants people to eat eyeballs, hearts, kidneys, and testicles. But Brian knows most of us can't grab this stuff at Trader Joe's. So in 2015, he decides to sell his own brand of supplements that he says contain organ meat. First, he sells his supplements through Amazon and then eventually builds a website called ancestralsupplements.com Brian and Barbara are onto something. They're actually early to what turns out to be an emerging market for organ meat supplements. And by all accounts, the supplements start selling fast.
- [18:12]
Sachi Kol
It just seems like good timing and good marketing.
- [18:14]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, it definitely hit at the right time. Brian spends hours replying to customers emails and connecting with them. He's changing people's lives, and it changes his own. After a few years of selling supplements, he and his family move into a mansion near Houston. Brian and Barbara finally have the free time to spend with their kids. They're all feeling great and living well. But it's not enough. He's still hungry for more. So he decides to do something drastic. He launches a new website and makes himself the name and face of the business. From this point on, he completely sheds his former identity. Brian was a scrawny little boy who got pushed around, the father who let his kids get sick. But Brian is no more. This is the moment he fully becomes the liver King. Now that the weather's warmer, are you realizing that you're back in the same worn out rotation, same tank, same shorts, same everything?
- [19:18]
Sachi Kol
If so, it's the perfect time to give your daily uniform an upgrade. With Quince, their pieces are easy, elevated, and somehow make you feel more put together without even trying.
- [19:27]
Sarah Hagie
Like 100% European linen shorts and dresses from $30 Luxe Swimwear or Italian leather platform sandals. And everything with quints is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands.
- [19:40]
Sachi Kol
Sarah, as you know, I don't like summer. I don't like feeling hot and I don't like dressing for summer. But I have some dresses from Quinn's. I love wearing them, especially when it's super hot outside and I'm sweating and I don't know what to wear. And I always look cute.
- [19:53]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I mean, you. You do always look cute in your quint stuff. Thank you. Treat your closet to a little summer glow up with quints. Go to quince.comscampod for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.
- [20:06]
Sachi Kol
That's Q-U-I-N C E.comscampod to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comscampod in the first half of the.
- [20:17]
Lindsey Graham
20Th century, one woman changed adoption in America. What was once associated with the shame of unmarried mothers became not only acceptable, but fashionable. But Georgia Tann didn't help families find new homes. Out of the goodness of her heart. She was stealing babies from happy families and selling them for profit. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. And in our latest series, a young adoption worker moves to Memphis, Tennessee, and becomes one of the most powerful women in the city. By the time her crimes are exposed decades later, she's made a fortune and destroyed hundreds of families along the way. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today.
- [21:15]
Sarah Hagie
I feel like a legend. It's a Sunny Morning in September 2021. Liver King stands on his mansion's driveway, shirtless and sunburned. He's 44 and wears a pair of short shorts, a backwards baseball cap, and hiking boots. He's got a full social media team now, and he's ready to make some content. He puts on 20 pounds of ankle weights and a 70 pound backpack, which is dragging another 70 pounds in weight. Oh, and he's also carrying a huge kettlebell in each hand. Liver King calls this workout the barbarian. Check out the video that winds up on TikTok.
- [21:57]
Sachi Kol
Okay, so in this video, it appears that the Liver King has turned schlepping into an exercise. His skin looks like a baked potato, and so it looks like a very large chiseled baked potato is lugging several weights up a driveway in Houston, I guess. But it's weird because it's juxtaposed against the mansion he lives in. So it's interesting work.
- [22:26]
Sarah Hagie
It's also functionally useless, in my opinion. But the man we once knew as Brian has totally transformed ever since rebranding himself as the Liver King. He's got huge biceps and pecs. Even his beard is bigger than before he started calling himself Liver King. And just so you can really gauge the size difference, I actually have some before and after photos for comparison. The first pic is what Liver King looked like in 2018, a couple of years into selling ancestral supplements. And the second image is what he looks like now.
- [22:59]
Sachi Kol
Okay, so before he started really doing this to himself, he looked like a relatively normal beef guy, like just a beefy man. Yeah, in the second image, he looks like if you gave UConn Cornelius every drug ever made.
- [23:15]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, he's aging like a president during a war. But you know what? Saatchi, with his new ripped physique and catchy name, Liver King, steadily amasses followers, gaining 60,000 of them in less than two months. And he learns what works and what doesn't. Very early on, he finds that he connects with his audience the most when he pushes himself to the limit. Posting that workout video to TikTok gains Liver King so many views and comments, it doesn't really matter if they're good or bad, because all that engagement pushes more people. To Liver King's video, the rebrand is so effective, Liver King starts doing more crazy physical stunts. He also starts eating mountains of raw meat and animal parts on camera. And through it all, his message is clear. Live like me and you will look like me. And you can't live like me unless you eat like me. Here he is on TikTok.
- [24:09]
Brian Johnson
Liver is king. And if you want to be an alpha organism dominating life, this is where you start.
- [24:16]
Sarah Hagie
Liver King's star is rising and he uses this newfound celebrity in a kind of surprising way to talk about mental health. He doesn't want men to struggle with their body image the way he did, and people really connect with that message.
- [24:31]
Sachi Kol
Eating organ meat as if it's going to cure your self esteem problems is not the solution. But it's so clear that the Liver King is also feeding into this kind of ideology a lot of men have about how their diets and exercises should work, which is that they have to be like extreme.
- [24:49]
Sarah Hagie
Yes. But also it's working because as Liver King grows, so does his brand and his bank account. Liver King says it isn't about that. He believes that by spreading the ancestral message, he can save men from mental illnesses that are caused by our modern world. But Liver King is hiding a big secret, and when it comes out, it'll threaten to upend his supplement empire. Pretty soon, Liver King's content catches the attention of a guy named Vigorous Steve. Vigorous Steve is a YouTuber and coach who uses his platform to dispel workout myths and show dudes how to get results at the gym. Gym. He's also been open about helping people to use steroids more safely. For that reason, he's a little cagey about his real identity. His website says that his name is Stefan, but Steve is a little more anonymous and easier to pronounce. He's got an Eastern European accent and he now lives in Thailand. He's been bodybuilding for more than 15 years and he is totally ripped. He looks like who the gods broke Channing Tatum off of. Here's a picture of him. Saatchi, can you describe this?
- [26:04]
Sachi Kol
Looks like a poster for the world's strongest man at the circus.
- [26:08]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, he's got a huge back. And when Steve comes across a video for Liver King, he's reminded that he's actually been in touch with him before. He later claims in a YouTube video that Liver King initially contacted him about hiring him as a remote bodybuilding coach. Screenshots of emails Steve later shares online appear to show Brian Johnson as a sender with an email address ending in ancestral supplements dot com. That's Liver King's company. In the email shared online, the sender writes, as it relates to my goals, I'm the face of several brands. I'm pouring ridiculous resources into making this happen. I have to stay in great fucking shape year round. And then he goes on to say, I've been working out for 35 years, but as I've reached my mid-40s, it's getting harder, and the back fat push fucking kills me. I should mention we reached out to Liver King for comment and he did not immediately get back to us. We also reached out to Steve, but he didn't want to get into specifics. He wrote to us in part. Honestly, it's a dead topic at this point and have no real interest to revisit it any further. And then the person in these emails confesses something huge. He writes, quote, to support these exhaustive efforts, I've recently started taking Omnitrope. Omnitrope Saatchi is a human growth hormone. It works by boosting testosterone and increasing muscle mass. And it was definitely not around during the time of cavemen. So if Liver King actually wrote these emails, it means that his brand is based on a lie.
- [27:44]
Sachi Kol
It would mean that, wouldn't it?
- [27:46]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah. I mean, who could have guessed? And in a YouTube video, Steve later claims that he agrees to take Liver King on as a client, but that things go south pretty quickly. Steve says he wanted to take a holistic approach to Liver King's health and fitness, but when asked to do a health screening, Liver King wasn't having it. Steve saw it as a red flag. He claims in the YouTube video that he dropped him as a client and refunded his money, and I never heard from him again. Now, looking back on it, what he.
- [28:17]
Brian Johnson
Wanted me to do is be his drug guy secretly.
- [28:21]
Sarah Hagie
Thus, I would have been complicit in this lie all along. As Steve watches Liver King's videos about ancestral living and his ads for supplements, his stomach probably drops. He's convinced it's all one big lie, and now he knows the truth. All the while, Liver King continues to get more and more popular. He gets covered by meme pages and appears on podcasts like Carnivoremd. When he gets asked specifically about whether he uses performance enhancing drugs, he says.
- [28:53]
Brian Johnson
I don't touch this stuff. Isn't it just fucked up that a muscular, lean man has to justify his level of fitness? But a fat, lazy, metabolically deranged, or skinny, fragile, osteopathically deranged? They don't have to justify their lack of fitness.
- [29:10]
Sarah Hagie
Vigorous Steve is watching Liver King unabashedly spread fitness misinformation. It goes against everything he believes in. But the coach client relationship is also sacred. Exposing Liver King could endanger Steve's own place and honor in the man world. Steve is torn. And as he wrestles with this dilemma, he's going to have to watch as Liver King becomes more famous than ever. It's March 2022 and Liver King is creating content in Tanzania with the Maasai tribe. He's getting back to his quote unquote primal roots. We need to watch this clip from Liver King's YouTube together because Sachi, it is so extra.
- [29:54]
Brian Johnson
The night is always good and the day is always better. Oh, you got blood in that thing. This is our second African sunrise breakfast. But this time it's the best breakfast because we're here with the Maasai Liver King out.
- [30:08]
Sachi Kol
I have so many thoughts about this.
- [30:10]
Sarah Hagie
Sachi laid on me.
- [30:11]
Sachi Kol
I mean, this is a. It's just such a strange community to bring up in this context because the Messiah are not eating animal proteins in order to lift weights and become swole. It's just not a priority for the Maasai. So why are they even implicated in this? I don't understand.
- [30:33]
Sarah Hagie
I mean, it is so gross to see him kind of exploit this tribe because you can have a really beautiful and authentic experience visiting these places. But it shows me that he's definitely not interested in that.
- [30:46]
Sachi Kol
No, probably not.
- [30:48]
Sarah Hagie
I mean, we could do a whole episode about this specific TikTok. In it, Liver King chugs what appears to be a tall glass of blood. And off to the side, his wife Barbara is sipping her own glass. And Rad and Stryker aren't too far away. The boys are now preteens, tall and lanky, with their blonde hair tied up in Nordic looking braids. Buzzfeed calls Liver King the biggest bro influencer we have ever seen. And he's under a lot of pressure to keep creating outrageous content that keeps growing his audience. But as Liver King becomes more famous, the disconnect between his ideals and his lifestyle become harder to ignore. Taking a private jet isn't exactly connecting with the earth. Back at home, he works out and sits by the pool with his pack of Dobermans, Axe and Mace, who have their own room in his mansion. And of course he makes videos about what he eats for dinner. He claims to eat 16 ounces of full fat cooked red meat, raw sweetbreads, raw heart or raw bull testicles, and finally, an avocado with sea salt and olive oil. His brand quickly becomes a nightmare marriage of masculinity and conspicu consumption. He's not just walking in the woods and talking to a camera anymore. His videos now feature his massive truck and his luxury ranch. He also shows himself flying on a private jet emblazoned with the words Liver King on the tail. And yes, there are plates of bone Marrow on the private jet. Commenters drool over Liver King's lifestyle. Desperate to achieve it themselves, Liver King points his followers, who he calls Primals to the tenants. And in videos like this one from Instagram, he also shows off his products.
- [32:37]
Brian Johnson
If you want to be a top king, if you want unlimited access to cars, money, and if you want to find your queen, then you have to fuel your efforts with ancestral supplements.
- [32:48]
Sachi Kol
It's just nonsense. It's just bullshit. I don't know why I feel this way, but all of this feels like Joe Rogan's fault. And I don't even mean Spotify Joe Rogan or UFC Joe Rogan. I'm talking about Fear Factor Joe Rogan, when everybody was like, eating spiders and he was laughing.
- [33:08]
Sarah Hagie
Well, it is funny you should mention Joe Rogan, because he's actually about to get wind of Liver King. And when he does, it'll unleash a scandal that will rock the manosphere to its core. In April 2022, Joe Rogan makes fun of Liver King's whole deal on his podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience. And he makes a bold claim.
- [33:31]
Brian Johnson
Have you seen that bloke that eats the just the raw?
- [33:35]
Sarah Hagie
That's a gimmick, that guy.
- [33:37]
Brian Johnson
It just looks ridiculous. He's got a plate of hearts and he's got an ass filled with steroids is what he's got.
- [33:44]
Sarah Hagie
You might think Joe Rogan calling Liver King out for his biggest secret would worry Liver King, but it seems like he loves it. Rogan's podcast subscribers are in the millions, so Liver King uses the controversy to book more media appearances. He gets flown out to LA and appears on shows like Logan Paul's. Knowing he's under fire, Liver King decides to show his softer side. He starts sharing stories from his childhood and self image struggles. And he gets a lot of these big tough guys to open up about their own issues. In many of these interviews, Liver King denies the steroid rumors. He goes on a YouTube show called Mark Bell's Power Project and says, I'm.
- [34:27]
Brian Johnson
Just going to head it, you know, face it head on. I don't. I don't touch this stuff. I've never done this stuff. I'm not going to do this stuff.
- [34:32]
Sarah Hagie
What stuff?
- [34:33]
Brian Johnson
The. The asshole of steroids that he talks.
- [34:36]
Lindsey Graham
You've never taken steroids?
- [34:37]
Brian Johnson
Never taken steroids. I've never done PEDs other than prioritize, execute and dominate in life.
- [34:43]
Sarah Hagie
Ped Saatchi actually stands for performance enhancing drug. Liver King tells reporters he's working on building his own podcast. Studio and even has a TV deal in the works, but that none of this is about the money or about becoming famous. In May, GQ runs a big story on Liver King. When the reporter asks him about the steroid rumors, Liver King tells her, I don't touch the stuff. He also says he's grateful to Joe Rogan for bringing him into his ecosystem and that he'd love to be on the podcast someday. One of the best parts of this GQ story, by the way, are the photos of. I am sorry to show you these, but you have to take a look.
- [35:26]
Sachi Kol
All right, well, the first photo is of the Liver King laying in his usual state of undress, which is shirtless with four Dobermans. The next photo is deeply disturbing. It is him and his two sons, and they are also shirtless and they're sitting around the dinner table eating heads. And then the last photo is him with his wife, who he shared blood with.
- [35:53]
Sarah Hagie
Good for her.
- [35:54]
Sachi Kol
And they're sitting in a pool filled with very large cubes of ice. It's about what you would expect.
- [36:00]
Sarah Hagie
It's a modern American family.
- [36:02]
Sachi Kol
This is a Norman Rockwell painting for our age.
- [36:06]
Sarah Hagie
Even with all this, Liver King always keeps the steroid rumors at the forefront, knowing from those early videos that even hate watchers boost his place in the algorithm and lead to more views. The more his haters comment, the more famous he gets. And the more famous he gets, the more Liver King branded products he can promote. But soon, the roid debate will stir more than just comments and conspiracies. Liver King is about to finally lose control of his own narrative.
- [36:39]
Lindsey Graham
As a contractor for the nsa, Edward Snowden had access to a range of top secret government programs. But as he learned more about these clandestine operations, he came to understand a devastating secret. The government was conducting mass surveillance on its own citizens. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, Whistleblower Edward Snowden changes the national conversation about privacy on the Internet as he risks his own freedom and his family's well being. Follow American Scandal on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. Listen to all episodes ad free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. In the early hours of December 4.
- [37:32]
Sarah Hagie
2024, CEO Brian Thompson stepped out onto the streets of midtown Manhattan.
- [37:38]
Brian Johnson
This assailant pulls out a weapon and.
- [37:40]
Sachi Kol
Starts firing at him.
- [37:41]
Sarah Hagie
We're talking about the CEO of the.
- [37:43]
Lindsey Graham
Biggest private health insurance corporation in the world.
- [37:45]
Sarah Hagie
World. And the suspect he has been identified.
- [37:48]
Brian Johnson
As Luigi Nicholas Mangione became one of.
- [37:51]
Sarah Hagie
The most divisive figures in modern criminal history.
- [37:54]
Jason Concepcion
I was targeted, premeditated, Admit to sow terror.
- [37:57]
Lindsey Graham
I'm Jesse Weber, host of Luigi, produced by Law and Crime and Twist. This is more than a true crime investigation.
- [38:04]
Sarah Hagie
We explore a uniquely American moment that.
- [38:07]
Lindsey Graham
Could change the country forever.
- [38:09]
Brian Johnson
He's awoken the people to a true issue.
- [38:14]
Sarah Hagie
Finally, maybe this would lead rich and powerful people to acknowledge the barbaric nature of our healthcare system.
- [38:21]
Lindsey Graham
Listen to Law and Crime's Luigi exclusively on Wondery plus. You can join Wondery in the Wondery.
- [38:26]
Sarah Hagie
App, Spotify or Apple Podcasts I Feel Like a legend by late 2022, Liver King has fully blown up. He's in magazines, on podcasts, and all over the Internet. Plenty of people are starting to take notice, but not everyone buys into his whole living natural thing. There's Joe Rogan, obviously, and then there's a vlogger named Derek. He goes by the YouTube handle. More plates, more dates. He's nowhere near as famous as Joe Rogan, but but he's got a pretty healthy following. Nearly 2 million subscribers on YouTube. He looks like a millennial and he's got light brown hair and stubble. Oh, and he is extremely swole. He's known for making vlogs about fitness biohacking and trying to figure out which celebrities are on steroids. And lately he's zeroed in on Liver King. Here's what he has to say about him in one of his earlier YouTube videos.
- [39:31]
Brian Johnson
I think the likelihood is extremely high this guy is enhanced, and I do not think this is representative of ancestral living.
- [39:38]
Sarah Hagie
By the way, we reached out to Derek via his YouTube admin page several times and didn't hear back, but he makes his opinions very clear in his YouTube videos. He doesn't necessarily disagree with Liver King's core message. He's all about working out, and he actually has no problem with raw liver. But what he doesn't like is that Liver King is presenting himself as Mr. Back to Nature while flying around on private jets and profiting from his supplements brand. Derek thinks something fishy is going on, but he doesn't have proof. Then Derek gets a hot tip, and now that he has the receipts, it's showtime. In late November, Derek mics himself up and sits down in a wood paneled room facing his camera. He's wearing a tight white T shirt. He hits record and starts recounting everything he's learned about Liver King. Here's a clip from the video he uploaded to YouTube.
- [40:32]
Brian Johnson
At the start of the video, I mentioned how there was some information that came across my desk that was shocking, to say the least. This set of redacted emails shows what appears to be Liver King corresponding with a bodybuilding coach.
- [40:45]
Sarah Hagie
Derek's video breaks down the accusations against Liver King and the way he's flirted with the steroid controversy. Then he describes the long history and harm caused by lying about steroid use, especially in the health and fitness community community. Derek also pushes back against Liver King's claims that he is not profiting off his virality.
- [41:05]
Brian Johnson
Many may believe that those who understand the impact extremely viral social media content can have on site traffic, conversion potential, etc. Know how absolutely absurd of a statement this is.
- [41:17]
Sarah Hagie
And then finally, Derek unveils what appears to be screenshots of emails that Liver King sent to a bodybuilding coach. Vigorous Steve later says in a YouTube video that he was a body coach who received the emails. In Derek's YouTube expose, he lays out all the allegations of Liver King steroid use and accuses him of taking advantage of his fans for money. The video is more than an hour long and racks up more than four and a half million views. Some of Derek's fans call it a masterpiece. Others say he deserves an Emmy or an Oscar. It makes a big impact, and when Liver King catches wind of it, he'll do something completely unexpected. Liver King has recently returned from yak hunting in the Mongolian wilderness. He had his phone off all day, but when he powers it on, he's flooded with texts from his media team. They're panicking. They've seen Derek's video and the evidence is damning. Liver King's secret is out. Liver King watches the video and takes it all in. Where does he go from here? What does he say? Well, he later says that he immediately calls Derek to thank him. He says the video set him free. He knows it's time to come clean. A few days later, he sits in a dark room on a throne. He stares straight into the camera and makes a confession. Here's what he says in the YouTube video.
- [42:51]
Brian Johnson
Yes, I've done steroids and yes, I'm on steroids.
- [42:57]
Sarah Hagie
And then he goes right back out on the podcast circuit. He talks about his hardships and about wanting to be honest with his fans. And all these videos, of course, get him even more attention. Liver King pledges to go natural and invites people to follow him on that journey. His latest videos are still garnering hundreds of thousands, even millions of views. And he's still selling supplements. It seems like the liver King just cannot be dethroned. But he can be sued. On December 28, 2022, Christopher Altomare, a former fan from New York, files a $25 million class action lawsuit against liver King and companies. The suit alleges he made false promises and told outright lies to his customers and that he intentionally misrepresented that his physique was a result of his health program. The plaintiffs are attempting to use his podcasts and video appearances as evidence that he lied. Some even say the diet he advertised made them sick.
- [44:02]
Sachi Kol
That is not surprising. I don't think you can go from eating anything in the way of what a normal diet would be and then start eating raw liver and expect to not be feel terrible.
- [44:14]
Sarah Hagie
Well, it takes a few attempts, but at 9am on January 12, 2023, court papers were finally served at liver King's luxurious home. Just two months later, in March, the plaintiffs decide to voluntarily withdraw the lawsuit. But critics like vigorous Steve are still skeptical. When we reached out to Steve for comment, he said this in a email. I'm surprised people still believe him now that he claims natural. There's been zero proof that he actually is, he continued, at this point, the people who still support him kind of deserve to be lied to and forfeit their earnings to support a charlatan. Some people just need to believe in a dream, no matter how fake that dream really is. Sachi, now that we've talked a lot about eating raw meat, what are you gonna eat for dinner tonight?
- [45:08]
Sachi Kol
Uh, you know, some eyelashes, some follicles, some thoughts and prayers, I guess.
- [45:14]
Sarah Hagie
I'm wondering how many of his followers do you think were, like, really eating the testicles and the liver and all of those things?
- [45:24]
Sachi Kol
I'm sure there were lots of men who bought some of his product and tried it once realized it was A, probably not very good, B, wasn't really gonna change their bodies that much, but still liked what the liver King was saying and what he was bringing to the table. And they kept engaging with it, and that made him very rich.
- [45:43]
Sarah Hagie
I also think that most of this whole scam has to do with the fact that, like, he was never really able to get over his own insecurities and face himself. Like, he thought the solution to his problems of being a guy who's a bit short and lost a fight or whatever was to become full on, like, masculine Again, like, eating this and doing that shit. And it's kind of like the message he's trying to push of being happy with yourself should have, like, nothing to do with any of that. I know. It's, like, so obvious, but I feel like he was able to really hone in on a very specific type of insecurity that men have that is, like, almost too shameful to even talk about their insecurities or, like, looking a certain way. And I feel like he was really able to get into this influencer sphere of, like, look like me. You won't have these problems anymore and never actually have to deal with the reality of your own life.
- [46:37]
Sachi Kol
I mean, you might even say that the real scam is masculinity. I feel more offended by the simplicity of this scam. It's not new or inventive to tell men to just eat like the innards of a horse. It feels almost tedious. I want to be scammed into eating something new. I want someone to scam me into eating a person. That would be revolutionary. That would really change my life.
- [47:05]
Sarah Hagie
Yeah, I guess it's pretty easy to come up with, like, a crazy diet of, like.
- [47:10]
Sachi Kol
Yeah, like, more animal fat, more animal protein.
- [47:13]
Sarah Hagie
Oh, I came up with a good one the other day.
- [47:15]
Sachi Kol
Oh, what is it?
- [47:16]
Sarah Hagie
Forget microplastics. It's time to start consuming macroplastics. Just cut to the chase.
- [47:22]
Sachi Kol
You know what? That's good. That's the kind of scam that I'm.
- [47:24]
Sarah Hagie
Looking for, the kind of diet scam.
- [47:26]
Sachi Kol
I'm looking for at this point.
- [47:27]
Sarah Hagie
But I will say, I think the lesson here is just don't pretend you're reinventing the wheel here. You know?
- [47:35]
Sachi Kol
Yeah.
- [47:36]
Sarah Hagie
Just eat your liver and enjoy it. And don't try and make a lot of money by selling supplements of raw organs, which is a whole other thing I don't even understand.
- [47:47]
Sachi Kol
You know, here's a tip for our male listeners. All three of you out there, just eat stuff you like and eat it normally and don't talk to people about it. And don't make your diet a linchpin element of your personality. Get a hobby. You know what men need hobbies. That's why this happens. The lesson today is if you are a man, you need a hobby. Go fly a kite. Learn to crochet. Call your mother or don't. Loving scamflancers. Get exclusive episodes and early access to new ones, all ad free on Wondry Plus. Join now in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. Before you go, help us out by taking a quick survey@wondry.com survey.
- [48:36]
Sarah Hagie
This is do we even grift bro? I'm Sarah Hagie.
- [48:40]
Sachi Kol
And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you you think we should cover, please email us@scamfluencerswondery.com we use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the GQ article In the Court of the Liver King by Madeline Aguilar, the YouTube video the liver King Lie by More plates, more dates, and the diary of a CEO's interview with liver King.
- [49:03]
Sarah Hagie
Colleen Scriven wrote this episode. Additional writing by us Sashi Kol and Sarah Hagie. Our senior producer is Jen Swan. Our producer is John Reed. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Pirie. Our story editor and producer is Sarah Enny. Our story editors are Eric Thurm and Alison Weintraub. Sound design is by James Morgan, fact checking by Gabrielle Jolle. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frison Sync. Our managing producer is Matt Gant and our senior managing producer is Tanja Thigpen. Our coordinating producer is Desi Blaylock. Kate Young and Olivia Richard are our series producers. Our senior story editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Our senior producer is Ginny Blume. Our executive producers are Jeanine Cornello, Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer Beckman and Marshall Louie. For wondering.
- [50:10]
Unknown
Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From COVID experiments pushing the boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about, each one weak on redacted, declassified mysteries. We pull back the curtain on These hidden histories, 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II not as prisoners but as assets to advance US intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow Declassified Mysteries on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to redacted early and ad free right now on Wondery Plus.