Loading summary
Transcript156 lines
- [00:00]
Sachi Cole
Wondery subscribers can listen to Scamfluencers early and ad free right now. Join Wonder plus in the Wondery app or Apple Podcasts.
- [00:09]
Wondery
Wondery.
- [00:14]
Sachi Cole
Sarah, do you have a favorite camp figure? Like you know what John Waters says in that Simpsons episode, the tragically Ludicrous. The ludicrously tragic?
- [00:23]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah. I mean, I always go back to that Karlie Kloss tweet before she goes to the Met gala where she's holding up the mirror and going, look in camp right in the eye. Only to later show she did not dress camp at all.
- [00:37]
Sachi Cole
Like, no, terrible outfit. Terrible outfit.
- [00:39]
Sarah Haggie
And to me, that was camp.
- [00:41]
Sachi Cole
Well, I've always thought of you as my favorite camp figure. You're like my Barbra Streisand. Like, you're notoriously difficult and everyone on the show is afraid of you.
- [00:50]
Sarah Haggie
And that's why they pay me the big bucks.
- [00:54]
Sachi Cole
Well, as ever, I ask because today we're looking at how two people transform themselves after public failures. Namely, how one of them turned towards the tragic and another towards the ludicrous. Put on your best non waterproof mascara, Sarah. It's time we finish the Ballad of Tammy Faye. It's October 5, 1989, in Charlotte, North Carolina. It's been two months since Jim Bakker's trial started. The trial has been plagued by delays, including a devastating hurricane. But now it's finally come to an end. After two days of deliberation, the jury has made its decision. The atmosphere around the courthouse is tense. Reporters press up against the door, elbowing to get enough space for their microphones and cameras. A few of Jim's followers hold up giant signs with supportive messages. Then Jim arrives. He's 49 years old with dark graying hair and oversized 80s glasses. He holds Tammy's hand as they walk through the crowd. She's also in her late 40s and she's wearing a cherry red pantsuit over a polka dotted turtleneck that matches her bracelets. Her short blonde hair is spiked up like a faux hawk. And of course there's all that mascara layered on like she's got a sponsorship deal. Sarah, take a look at this photo of them walking up to the courthouse.
- [02:13]
Sarah Haggie
This is such a nutso photo. You know, they're surrounded by reporters, people with signs, flashing lights. He's looking at her, smiling.
- [02:22]
Sachi Cole
Yeah.
- [02:23]
Sarah Haggie
You know, and she has so much eyeliner on, you can't see the whites of her eyes.
- [02:29]
Sachi Cole
Basically. Yeah, they look almost joyful. But Jim is facing 24 counts of mail fraud, wire fraud and conspiracy. If convicted, he could be in prison for the rest of his life. And his fate is not looking good. About a month earlier, two of his associates were convicted of tax fraud. They were each charged $500,000 and sentenced to more than 17 years in prison. But their crimes were small compared to Jim's, so there's no way he's getting off easy. During the trial, details came out about how he and Tammy misused donations and spent the money on things like an air conditioned doghouse. At one point, Jim and Tammy's bodyguard testified that he was asked to spend the ministry's money buying bulk amounts of cinnamon rolls, but not because Jim wanted to eat them. He apparently just really liked the smell. Tammy denies this, but either way, lots of Jim and Tammy's former followers are pissed and they want justice. Just before noon, they get it. The judge announces that Jim has been found guilty on all 24 counts of fraud and conspiracy. After the verdict is delivered, Tammy Faye steps up to a bank of microphones outside of the courthouse. Jim's lawyer stands next to her, looking nervous. And then Tammy opens her mouth and Sarah, she starts singing. On Christ the solid rock I stand all other ground is sinking sand.
- [04:00]
Guest Speaker
It's not over till it's over.
- [04:03]
Sarah Haggie
She honestly sounds like an Amy Sedaris character or something. It's so funny, and it's just okay, I guess. Sing like that's your reaction.
- [04:15]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I mean, I guess she's stressed because Jim is finally facing real consequences for decades of wrongdoing. But he still steps out of the courtroom with a huge obnoxious smile plastered across his face. And he brazenly maintains his innocence. Here he is, addressing reporters.
- [04:33]
Jim Bakker
I went into the courtroom innocent of the charges against me, and I come out today still innocent of the charges against me. My faith is in God, and Romans 8:28 says that all things work together for good.
- [04:48]
Sachi Cole
Jim's lawyers announced they plan to appeal. But Jim's guilty verdict marks a crossing of the Rubicon for him and Tammy Faye. It'll threaten to destroy what they've spent their entire lives building. From their marriage to their ministry. Each of them hopes to salvage their legacy by reclaiming the spotlight in whatever way they can.
- [05:12]
Shopify
Ever wondered how industry giants like Aloe and Skims dominate the online retail space? The answer is simpler than you think.
- [05:18]
Sachi Cole
It's Shopify.
- [05:19]
Sarah Haggie
Shopify is the number one checkout tool with cutting edge features. It streamlines your operations to elevate the customer experience.
- [05:27]
Sachi Cole
At the heart of Shopify's power is shop pay. It can boost conversions by up to.
- [05:31]
Shopify
50%, meaning less abandoned carts and more cash flowing in.
- [05:35]
Sarah Haggie
With Shopify, your commerce platform will be ready to sell wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling on the web, in your store, in their feed, and everywhere in between.
- [05:45]
Shopify
So upgrade your business and get the same checkout that companies like Alo uses.
- [05:49]
Sarah Haggie
Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.comscampod or all lowercase go to shopify.comscampod to upgrade your selling today.
- [06:01]
Shopify
Shopify.comscampod.
- [06:06]
Zola
How weird does it feel to be called someone's fiance? The first time you hear it, you do a double take from there. Let's enjoy this moment turns into we're planning a fall wedding. That's where Zola comes in from. A venue and vendor discovery tool that matches you with your dream team. To save the dates, websites and an easy to use registry, Zola has everything you need to plan your wedding in one place. Start planning@zola.com that's Z O L A.com.
- [06:39]
Sachi Cole
From Wondery. I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagie and this is Scamflancers. Come and give me your attention. I will ever learn lesson Turn my.
- [06:48]
Guest Speaker
Speakers to 11 I feel like a.
- [06:51]
Sachi Cole
Legend in our last episode, Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker rose from humble beginnings as traveling preachers to massively influential Christian TV stars. Now a series of scandals have brought them down, but these two are not ready to lose their faith or their grip on the spotlight. They each make a comeback to rival Lazarus Tammy through a TV renaissance, and Jim by doubling down on what he does best scamming in the name of God. This is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. The God Fraud Part 2 Legend Less than three weeks after his trial ends, Jim returns to the courthouse for his sentencing. The judge deciding Jim's fate is notoriously strict. His name is Robert Potter, but he's actually known as Maximum Bob because he always gives out maximum sentences. He fines Jim half a million dollars and sentences him to 45 years in federal prison. It's not the maximum sentence, but it is way more than anyone expected. If Jim ends up serving the entirety of his sentence, he'll likely die in prison. Maximum Bob justifies his harsh sentence by saying that religious people are, quote, sick of being saps for money grubbing preachers and priests. Jim probably feels like he got hit with a wrecking ball. His 19 year old daughter, Tammy sue is sobbing. Jim tries to comfort her, but before he can say much, a federal marshal comes to take him away. Jim is Taken to federal prison in Alabama and later transferred to a facility in Minnesota. While there, he reads the Bible cover to cover for the first time in his life.
- [08:27]
Sarah Haggie
I'm sorry, wait, he's never read the Bible?
- [08:30]
Sachi Cole
He was busy.
- [08:32]
Sarah Haggie
I do feel like if you're building an entire empire on preaching, you probably should have read it cover to cover at least two or three times.
- [08:41]
Sachi Cole
Yes, I mean, the Bible does have a lot of pages, but you're right. Meanwhile, Jim's lawyers are working on appealing his verdict. And Jim goes out and gets himself a high profile lawyer. Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz. Sarah, are you familiar with his clientele?
- [08:57]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, he's like the grossest guy. And he went on to represent O.J. simpson, Harvey Weinstein, and a guy called Donald Trump.
- [09:07]
Sachi Cole
Excellent. Well, as you can imagine, Allen's services don't come cheap. But Jim and Tammy's remaining followers help cover most of the costs. And it actually pays off. In February 1991, less than a year and a half after Jim went to prison, the court throws out his sentence and his half a million dollar fine. It all boiled down to that scathing comment that the judge made about money grubbing preachers. According to the appeals court, it showed that the judge was biased against Jim, which is a violation of Jim's due process rights. And now he is allowed to be re sentenced. Jim is thrilled, but he knows he's gotta be on his best behavior while in prison. So he volunteers at a hospice, raises money for United Way, and leads a class to help other inmates quit smoking. His strategy works, and by the time his hearing rolls around six months later, Jim's sentence is slashed from 45 years to 18, which makes him eligible for parole sooner. Now, he could potentially leave prison in just four years, but Tammy isn't going to wait that long. She's ready to restart her life and break out on her own. In March of 1992, about seven months after Jim gets his sentence reduced, Tammy writes a letter to her followers. She announces that a judge has officially granted her a divorce from Jim. It's classic Tammy, very public and very theatrical. The announcement becomes national news and lots of outlets publish portions of the letter. Sarah, will you read a bit of it?
- [10:35]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah. It goes. For years I have been pretending that everything is all right, when in fact I hurt all the time. I cannot pretend anymore. I've been suffering with high blood pressure, anemia, asthma, hyperventilation. All the doctor told me related to stress and severe nervous strain.
- [10:53]
Sachi Cole
Tammy claims she's leaving Jim because she's literally Sick with worry. But she's also ready to move on to a new man. His name is Ro Mesner, and he's a Kansas construction magnate known for building churches. He actually helped build Heritage usa, Tammy and Jim's theme park. Both Jim and Tammy have considered him a close friend for years, but it seems like Tammy got even closer to him while Jim's been in prison. She marries Roe in 1993, and they honeymoon in Hawaii. But their honeymoon period doesn't last very long because about two years into their marriage, Rowe is found guilty of bankruptcy fraud. And there's some real comic irony here. Tammy's second husband is about to go to prison a year after her first one gets paroled, because, yeah, Jim Bakker got parole after just four years. But Tammy is ready to take another big leap of faith. She's about to team up with a new man, someone who will help usher her into her next era of TV fame. Tammy makes her return to television during the last week of 1995. The show is called the Jim Jay and Tammy Faye Show. But the Jim in question isn't her ex husband. It's sitcom star Jim J. Bullock. He's openly gay, and Tammy is still very religious, which makes for a fun odd couple dynamic. When the show debuts on Fox, it marks Tammy's first shift into mainstream entertainment. She's been distancing herself from conservative Christianity for a while now. During the AIDS crisis, she used her platform to speak out on behalf of people living with HIV and aids. It ruffled feathers, including her ex husband Jim's. But now that he's out of the picture, Tammy leans into her progressive image. On the Jim Jay and Tammy Faye show, she ditches the hymns and decides to poke fun at herself. It's cute. And sometimes her dynamic with this new gym feels just like the old PTL club, minus all the Bible verses. At the top of every show, Tammy walks onto the stage holding hands with Jim Jay.
- [12:52]
Sarah Haggie
Oh, look at him.
- [12:57]
Sachi Cole
Tammy and Jim Jay exchange, exchange banter and get up to silly antics like playing mini golf on set.
- [13:03]
Guest Speaker
I heard of a lady who killed her poodle doing this one.
- [13:06]
Jim Bakker
That is so scary, Tammy. That is really scary.
- [13:09]
Sachi Cole
But Tammy and her new host quickly run into problems. First of all, producers keep telling Tammy that she cries and talks about Jesus too much. Tammy has her own complaints. She feels like Jim Jay talks about sex too much. The reality is that Tammy has much bigger problems. In March 1996, just a few months into making the show, she reveals that she has colon cancer. Tammy leaves her TV show To focus on her health, she foregoes chemotherapy, but she has surgery to take out 14 inches of her colon. And through it all, she never loses her sense of self. On the Roseanne show, Tammy later recalls.
- [13:45]
Guest Speaker
When I was in the hospital, I wouldn't let him take my makeup off because I said, at the worst time of your life, when you're coming out of anesthesia and you're feeling so terrible, anyway, at least if you know you look halfway as decent, then you feel better about yourself.
- [13:59]
Sachi Cole
As Tammy recovers from her surgery, she writes down her life story. It's published in a book called Tammy Telling it my way in October 1996. The book covers her early years in a small town, being raised without indoor plumbing, her rise to global celebrity, and finally, her life as a cancer survivor. Sarah, take a look at the COVID And please note, I am using this as inspiration for my next book jacket.
- [14:24]
Sarah Haggie
No notes. I don't know if anything could be more of the time. You know, it's like a headshot. She's wearing as much makeup as you can, really. And you know what? I'm intrigued.
- [14:37]
Sachi Cole
Well, Tammy has endured tragedy after tragedy. She spent the last few years in and out of the least fun places on earth, Courthouses and then hospitals. But now she's back on television and at the top of her game. Her reinvention is in full swing. But Jim's is just getting started. Almost exactly a year after Tammy's book comes out, Jim publishes one of his own. It's called I Was the Untold Story of the Shocking Journey from PTL Power to Prison and Beyond. It's a mouthful, but isn't it so Jim?
- [15:13]
Sarah Haggie
It is. And the COVID really makes him look regretful. You know, he looks like a kid who's been caught, and he's like, I'm sorry, mommy.
- [15:21]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, he looks like he did an oopsie for sure. In his book, Jim writes about being released from prison a little more than a year earlier. It's been transformative for him, at least according to his own version of the story. We reached out to Jim, by the way, and through his representative, he declined to comment for this episode. But he wrote in his book that reading the Bible cover to cover in prison led to an epiphany. He says he realized that the prosperity gospel isn't truly Christian. Sarah, can you read what he wrote?
- [15:50]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah. He said, I had presented a Disneyland gospel in which the good guys always get rich, the bad guys are defeated, and everyone lives happily ever after. A spiritual fantasy land where God's People are always blessed, materially, physically, and of course, spiritually. Like a car salesman. I did not want anyone to see any defects in our product. I guess I'm unsure, like, is he saying that reading the Bible helped him figure out that, you know, actually that's not how it works? And I can't believe I thought that. But also, I just kind of made it up and didn't even read the Bible?
- [16:28]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, it's a. It's a weird. It's a weird stance. The memoir is Jim's first foray back into the public eye. After leaving prison. He's been spending most of his time ministering in Los Angeles in neighborhoods he often refers to as, quote, the ghetto. Jim knows he's always worked best as one half of a duo with a wife to make him look like a pious husband. So in 1998, he marries a Pentecostal woman named Lori Graham, who has her own comeback story. She spent her teens partying, doing drugs and hooking up, which, you know, hard. Same. But after an unhappy marriage, she eventually found God and became a minister. Laurie is perfect for Jim's comeback. Sarah. She even looks like a toned down, 17 years younger Tammy Faye.
- [17:13]
Sarah Haggie
This is scary how much she looks like Tammy Faye. And I don't mean that in a. Oh, like women of a certain age.
- [17:20]
Sachi Cole
Who like all white ladies look alike.
- [17:21]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah. No, that's not it. Like same head shape.
- [17:25]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, very similar head shape.
- [17:27]
Sarah Haggie
Just like very, very similar looking. And she still is like odd looking in a way. But it's not Tammy Faye levels. It's kind of like, okay, let's take some makeup off and make the hair a little flatter, but same weird energy emanating from your aura.
- [17:44]
Sachi Cole
Correct. Well, shortly after they get married, Jim and Laurie move back to North Carolina, where they start plotting Jim's return to the Christian spotlight. And luckily for him, the only thing America loves more than seeing the self righteous bra out low is a redemption arc. And that's exactly what's propelling Tammy to a new wave of fame.
- [18:07]
Sarah Haggie
Unexpected expenses that pop up, especially during the holidays, are truly the worst. Life doesn't wait for payday.
- [18:14]
Sachi Cole
You got that right.
- [18:15]
Shopify
But luckily, there's Chime, the financial app that's changing the game. With Chime's MyPay feature, you can get up to $500 of your paycheck early. No credit check, no interest, and no mandatory fees. Plus, you'll get access to over 50,000 fee free ATMs. That's incredibly convenient, especially if you're traveling.
- [18:34]
Sarah Haggie
Don't wait for payday to make this holiday season merry and bright. Open your Chime checking account in minutes at chime.com scanpod that's chime.com scanpod Chime.
- [18:45]
Shopify
Feels like progress Banking services and debit card provided by The Bancorp Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. myPay line of credit provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA MyPay eligibility requirements apply. Not available in all states. MyPay credit limits range $20 to $500 $2 fee to get funds instantly spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Fees apply at out of network ATMs and for OTC withdrawals.
- [19:10]
AT&T
It's better over here at AT&T customers switching to T Mobile has never been easier. We'll pay off your existing phone and give you a new one free. All on America's largest 5G network. Visit t mobile.com CarrierFreedom to switch today.
- [19:26]
Wondery
Pay off up to 650 $50 via virtual prepaid MasterCard in 15 days. Free phone up to 830 dollars via 24 monthly bill credits plus tax qualifying porting trade in service on Go 5G next and credit required. Contact us before canceling entire account to continue bill credits or credit stop and balance and required finance agreement is due.
- [19:44]
Sachi Cole
I Feel like a legend. It's late 90s and Tammy Faye is in remission and she's also all over television. By the end of the decade, she's appeared on the RoseAnne show, the RuPaul show, and she even guest stars on the Drew Carey show as Mimi's mom.
- [20:03]
Jim Bakker
Don't tell me you're Mimi's mom.
- [20:07]
Guest Speaker
Yes, and you'll have to excuse me because I barely had time to put my face on.
- [20:14]
Sachi Cole
Tammy has always had a glittery, over the top personal style, but now she's a bonafide queer icon. Her appeal runs deeper than just a campy Persona. Her brand of Christianity is accepting rather than judgmental. It's fun instead of strict. In 2000, RuPaul, who has become a close friend, narrates a documentary about her. It's called the Eyes of Tammy Faye and in it he christens her with a new nickname.
- [20:40]
Jim Bakker
Tammy Faye is the first lady of religious broadcasting.
- [20:44]
Sachi Cole
The documentary lovingly depicts Tammy as someone who, despite all those scandals, has spent her life cultivating genuine compassion for marginalized people. It also cements her legacy as a kind hearted ambassador for a new kind of Christian. As Tammy becomes a cultural icon on the left, Jim is moving in the opposite direction, entrenching himself even more firmly with the evangelical right. By 2002, Jim and his new wife Lori have carved out a nice life for themselves in Florida. They've also adopted five children. Jim spends some time traveling and preaching, but he craves a more consistent, visible platform. His prayers are answered when he gets a call from a fan named Jerry Crawford. Jerry is a wealthy real estate developer from Branson, Missouri. He credits PTL with saving his marriage 20 years earlier and says he's been rooting for Jim ever since. Jerry wants to see Jim get back on his feet and back on the airwaves. He says he's willing to throw all of his financial resources behind Jim's comeback as long as Jim's willing to move his family to Branson. Jim decides he's got nothing to lose, so he and Laurie pack up their family and head to Branson. Jerry buys a house for the Bakers to live in and an old cafe to convert into a TV studio. They call it Studio City Cafe. And in January 2003, Jim returns to the airwaves.
- [22:05]
Jim Bakker
Live from Studio City Cafe in beautiful Branson, Missouri, it's the new Jim Baker Show.
- [22:12]
Sarah Haggie
What the hell is Studio City Cafe? That doesn't evoke anything. First of all, you're in Missouri.
- [22:20]
Sachi Cole
Would it be better if they meant the Studio City in Los Angeles? Like, that's not a great place either.
- [22:24]
Sarah Haggie
Well, I mean, that's where it's called Studio City for a reason. Sachi, what is these people, Their obsession was still getting attention. You know, what can you even do?
- [22:35]
Sachi Cole
I know. Well, the Jim Bakker show is a lot like the PTL club. Jim and Lori bring on friends and fellow ministers to chat around the their table. They hire various gospel and Christian folk singers to perform. But unlike Tammy, Lori never sings. And instead of constant teary telethons, the Jim Baker show has more of a QVC vibe. Jim and Lori are constantly advertising things. Books, jewelry, paintings, flashlights, whatever will pay the bills. But they're just getting started. Meanwhile, Tammy is about to get a hard dose of reality. By the mid 2000s, Tammy is still making the rounds as a celebrity guest on various corners of television. In early 2004, she appears on the second season of the Surreal Life alongside rapper Vanilla Ice. Sarah, you already know that. I watched all of this, like, eight times. Is there any chance you remember this show?
- [23:27]
Sarah Haggie
Absolutely. I would watch it in the summers when I was visiting my aunt in America. It was on VH1. A bunch of D list celebrities in a mansion. The first show of its kind, I believe.
- [23:40]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, big personality, small, shared Space, you know, very classic TV stuff. And Tammy's charming as ever on the show. In one episode, producers direct her and her castmates to have a seance.
- [23:52]
Guest Speaker
My Bible says that psychics and those kind of people that we are not to have anything to do with.
- [23:58]
Sachi Cole
I feel like Tammy's role on the show was kind of a strange woman from another world and another generation who was trying to understand all these heathens. And I found her very compassionate, actually, to everybody's lives. But almost immediately after her season of the Surreal Life airs, Tammy Faye goes on Larry King Live to share some devastating news. Her cancer has returned, and this time it's in her lungs and it's inoperable. She starts spending most of her time at home near Kansas City, Missouri. Her daughter, Tammy sue, takes care of her while she undergoes chemo. A little more than a year later, she appears on Larry King Live again. She looks gaunt, and her voice is hoarse and monotone. When Larry asks her if she believes she's going to heaven, she says, quote, I know for sure. The next day, Tammy passes away at home at the age of 65. Her husband Ro is by her side. Her footprint on culture has been cemented. But Jim is still trying to shape his own legacy. He's turned all of his attention on prepping for the future, and it turns out it's full of disaster. In the early years of the Jim Bakker Show, Jim and Lori claim to be operating on a shoestring budget with a volunteer staff and a makeshift studio. They're always talking about how they need more money to cover the show's costs, but they won't tell anyone how much money the show is bringing in each year. Jim resorts to his old tricks, including hitting up his audience for money. He and Laurie offer jewelry, mugs, and other gifts in exchange for donations. But Lori puts her own twist on the formula. In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, she gets the bright idea to offer backpacks filled with disaster kits for a suggested donation of $150 each. We don't know exactly what was in the packs, but it's likely stuff like food and water, first aid kits, lanterns, spare batteries, your typical prepper fare.
- [25:53]
Sarah Haggie
It's really funny to me that, like, for a lot of these evangelist types, the final grift is prepping for End of Life. Yeah, it's kind of like, all right, well, I know we can probably scare some people into thinking the end of the world is imminent, so let's get on that and sell vats of slop that will be in their Garage until they die.
- [26:15]
Sachi Cole
Everybody can use some Soylent. And business seems to be good for Jim and Laurie. In 2008, they moved from the house in Branson to a 600 acre compound near the Arkansas border. They call it Morningside. Jerry, their wealthy benefactor, spent $25 million building the sprawling campus for them. It's got a home, a television studio, and a theme park that looks like a giant indoor city, complete with a general store, a piazza, and a main street. The ceiling is even painted to look like a bright blue sky on a clear day. It is the fucking Truman show over there. And Sarah, I know this speaks to both of us because we love chain restaurants and malls and freak shows. I would love if you could describe Grace Chapel, the centerpiece of Morningside.
- [27:00]
Sarah Haggie
I mean, this looks like Christian Las Vegas. You know, it's meant to look like an outdoor little town square, but it's very much indoors and the ceilings are quite low. They're really low, really low. And at the center, there's like this. This huge statue of Jesus. And right in front of it, I guess, is a pew for people to pray to him.
- [27:26]
Sachi Cole
I guess it makes sense.
- [27:27]
Sarah Haggie
I don't know how Christianity works. So that's what I'm guessing.
- [27:31]
Sachi Cole
Well, Jim has somehow regained everything he lost with PTL in the 80s. He's got a hot blonde wife and his own TV channel again. Plus, this time, he's got an entire town devoted to his beliefs. But unlike his early life with Tammy, there's an unmistakably dark tinge to this second act. Jim and Laurie's new compound is basically a whole new version of Heritage usa. But there's a crucial difference between the two parks. Heritage USA was inspired by Disneyland, but Morningside seems more like Vegas meets Apocalypse Now. After renouncing the prosperity gospel, Jim has embraced a new the world is ending soon, and only he can help his followers prepare for it. It's likely inspired, at least in part, by Laurie's success with the Hurricane Katrina backpacks. So naturally, Laurie dials up her disaster panic at every chance she gets. After massive typhoons sweep through the western Pacific Ocean in 2011, Lori revives the emergency disaster kits and starts hawking them again. Sarah, will you please read this quote from one of Laurie's blog posts advertising her go bags?
- [28:37]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, she says, what if California falls into the ocean? What if the New Madrid fault gives way in the middle of this country? I don't want to be an alarmist, but I do want to be a realist. That last sentence was in all caps thank you. Okay. I mean, valid questions.
- [28:55]
Sachi Cole
Listen, part of it I can see through. But this is also all happening during the Obama administration, which gives Jim and Lori plenty to get riled up about. They're convinced that Obama is a, quote, representative for Antichrist and that judgment day is coming. Luckily, they have just the thing to help. A series of plastic buckets, each containing 18 freeze dried meals. And most of them are priced at more than 100 bucks each. Sarah, take a look at the screenshot from the Jim Bakker show.
- [29:26]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, I mean, this is disgusting. It looks like a Home Depot paint bucket and it says, ugh. It says tasty pantry. And you know what? He does not look like he's ever going to eat this. The look on his face is one of total emptiness.
- [29:44]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, things are hollow over there. Food options include a, quote, Asian style teriyaki kit with freeze dried beef and a beef flavored vegetarian meat substitute. There's Mac and cheese, creamy potato soup, creamy stroganoff, chicken breast chunks and chocolate pudding. Here, I would like you to take a look at what these meals look like. Look at them.
- [30:06]
Sarah Haggie
This is some of the most disgusting slop I've ever seen in my life.
- [30:11]
Sachi Cole
If I gave this to a dog, I would do it. If I hated the dog. Only this is dog food for a dog you hate.
- [30:16]
Sarah Haggie
The only recognizable meal to me is the bright, bright orange Mac and cheese. That looks so watery. This is sickening. I can't look at this anymore. Keep going.
- [30:30]
Sachi Cole
It's the color of buffalo chicken sauce.
- [30:32]
Sarah Haggie
I would rather die in whatever apocalypse than eat soft food like this in a basement. You know what I mean? It's like, what are you living for at that point?
- [30:42]
Sachi Cole
Well, Sarah, it actually gets better because they bring on a singer to promote the food buckets on their show.
- [30:48]
AT&T
I've got powdered food for a stormy.
- [30:53]
Jim Bakker
Day and spinach and blueberry and strawberries.
- [30:58]
Sachi Cole
Jim Bakker has found a fun new niche and he's about to get a massive boost from someone a lot like him, but just way more powerful.
- [31:15]
I
Audible's best of 2024 picks are here. Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one. The year's fast fiction like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com imagine and discover all the year's best waiting for you.
- [32:10]
Sachi Cole
When Donald Trump gets elected president in 2016, Jim is elated. He says he believes Trump was called by God to serve the country. But Jim can't rejoice for long. His business model relies on him inciting panic amongst his followers. So he finds a new spin for this current moment. He says that this is the calm before the storm and that something bad is brewing. In early 2020, his so called prophecy seems to come true. When the pandemic starts, Jim takes advantage of this by selling bottles of colloidal silver. He calls it silver solution, and he markets it as a cure for COVID 19. He sells the solution in packs of four with the suggested donation of 80 to $125. But colloidal silver has no known medical uses and it contains no essential nutrients. And in rare cases, it can actually turn your skin blue.
- [33:02]
Sarah Haggie
I do know that it can turn your skin blue. Not from personal experience, but there was like a guy who was on TV a lot and he was on the Today show once.
- [33:10]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, he was on Oprah.
- [33:12]
Sarah Haggie
Oh, was he on Oprah? Yeah, his skin was fully blue.
- [33:14]
Sachi Cole
I know exactly who you're talking about. Then he died.
- [33:17]
Sarah Haggie
Oh, my God.
- [33:17]
Sachi Cole
He had to go on every show to be like, don't eat silver. He'll turn blue.
- [33:21]
Sarah Haggie
And that's why I haven't. That's why I haven't.
- [33:23]
Sachi Cole
That's literally why I haven't. Well, ironically, the Trump administration that Jim once praised is now going after him. The FDA and the FTC send stern warnings to Jim's team. They tell him that he's violated the law by selling fake COVID 19 treatments, and they tell him to cut it out immediately. Then the state of Missouri sues him to get him to stop selling this junk on Air. In June 2021, he settles the suit and he agrees to pay $156,000 in restitution. Three months later, he settles a similar lawsuit filed by the state of Arkansas. But Jim and Lori continue to promote products aimed at surviving the apocalypse, like a Christmas variety bucket containing 17 dehydrated foods for just $99.99. You just add water. Jim has also recently relaunched the PTL club with Lori memberships, which can run up to 100 bucks a month, include archival content, recorded sermons, and emergency preparedness teachings. Jim Bakker has spent the better part of 50 years in the spotlight. From his prosperity gospel past to his doomsday prepper present. He's found love with two blonde women who lend him their support and charm. And he's taken advantage of millions of people's Christian faith to sell them junk that he says will bring them the health and the wealth that they deserve. If there's a scamfluencer's heaven, which is basically hell, he will surely be there manning those gates. Sarah, that's it. That's the ballad of Jim Bakker and Tammy Faye. What do you think?
- [34:57]
Sarah Haggie
It's always so interesting seeing how these mechanisms work within megachurches and community type scams. You know, it's always the same process, no matter what.
- [35:07]
Sachi Cole
Yeah. There is a kind of redundancy to like all religious scams. They all kind of sound the same.
- [35:13]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah. And you know, if we're talking about how mega churches function for quite a long time, this was not a scam. So it is so crazy to me that it got out of hand in this way when it was pretty maintainable. And if they had just played the long game, I really don't think this would have happened.
- [35:33]
Sachi Cole
I think some of it is like, the mistake was that Jim so loudly talked about the prosperity gospel, whereas like a lot of other preachers who sort of work in the same space are not so loud about like, I'm very rich. Do you know what I mean? It makes people notice you more. And then there was like that newspaper that wrote like 600 articles and it's like they had to do all that work to start to like tear him down.
- [35:58]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, he didn't really play the game in the right way because again, so many of these mega church pastors are filthy rich. And also I feel like they're strategic enough to have read enough of the Bible to bring up other stuff.
- [36:14]
Sachi Cole
How do you feel about Tammy after knowing like at least this story about like that particular husband and then what she ends up doing? How do you feel about her now?
- [36:23]
Sarah Haggie
I don't think she's this terribly rotten, evil person. It sounds like she got really caught up in this life, you know, having grown up the way she did. But I don't know, I don't really feel that bad for her. I mean, like, yes, it was her husband. She didn't have a lot to do with the day to day of the scam. But to me it's kind of like the ignorance wasn't really an excuse.
- [36:44]
Sachi Cole
Yeah, I think that's fair.
- [36:46]
Sarah Haggie
Her good nature and how obviously Outwardly emotional and caring, she was, to me, doesn't make up for the fact that, like, she was a participant in this. Like, this was built because of her allure with Jim, you know, it wasn't something that just happened around her.
- [37:01]
Sachi Cole
I agree with you. You're right. And, like, I obviously don't. I don't like to give anybody a pass, but I do also feel like she believed the wrong person and the wrong things, but she did believe them. And then I think after she realized she was wrong, she was sort of trying to take time to reassess and reshape her worldview and, like, fit back into a different zeitgeist. I think that makes her an interesting figure. I don't necessari have, like, a world of pity for her, but I do feel sorry for any woman who just gets, like, crushed by her shitty husband.
- [37:36]
Sarah Haggie
Definitely. I definitely feel bad for that. But also, it's like, you know, being interesting kind of made it seem like there was an innocence there because she was very childlike and campy.
- [37:48]
Sachi Cole
The weeping helped in her favor for sure. Yeah.
- [37:50]
Sarah Haggie
And I'm just kind of like, yeah, she was a true character. There was a reason why she was famous.
- [37:56]
Sachi Cole
Yeah.
- [37:56]
Sarah Haggie
But to me, that doesn't necessarily separate her from her complicity in this whole thing. But I do love her as, like, a pop culture figure.
- [38:06]
Sachi Cole
Oh, she's incredible.
- [38:08]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, she's incredible. She's like a true weirdo. And I love when someone has, like, a look they never abandoned.
- [38:16]
Sachi Cole
She was that erasley Sirena with that haircut. Yes, with that damn haircut.
- [38:20]
Sarah Haggie
It's sad her life didn't go a different way because she was clearly very talented. She was clearly, like, very charismatic. But, you know, it just happened the wrong way, and I feel bad for that.
- [38:31]
Sachi Cole
Doesn't it feel right for scamfluencer as hell that Jim is still alive and Tammy is not here? Yeah.
- [38:37]
Sarah Haggie
To me, it's just like, how do you go through all that? Go to prison, see your life crumble, you know, go from the top to the bottom and all, and then still kind of just like, now you're selling slop.
- [38:50]
Sachi Cole
He's still scamming, man. Rotten people live longer. I'm going to be here forever.
- [38:55]
Sarah Haggie
You know what? Maybe he's still alive because he's eaten that. Honestly, me saying that is making me gag. Like, it doesn't take a lot to make me feel sick. But thinking about that disgusting food and those pictures of that, like, watery Mac and cheese.
- [39:07]
Sachi Cole
You don't want to buy Jim Baker's Soylent?
- [39:10]
Sarah Haggie
No, it looked like you go to Popeyes and they're giving you expired sides.
- [39:14]
Sachi Cole
Sarah, you and I have talked about this. That if there was ever like a zombie infestation, I would just like be, I'm ready to go. Like, I'm good to die.
- [39:22]
Sarah Haggie
I'm ready to go. I'll fight a little bit, but you got me. You got me.
- [39:25]
Sachi Cole
I would walk outside and be like, let's go. I'm good. This is unnecessary.
- [39:29]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot I would do before eating that slop, I'll tell you that much.
- [39:34]
Sachi Cole
Yeah.
- [39:35]
Sarah Haggie
If the end of the world is happening the way these freaks say it is and that like, you know, the shit hits the fan. Do not align yourself with this. He's not gonna help you. First of all, he's weak as hell. What is he gonna. He's gonna fight for you.
- [39:50]
Sachi Cole
He survived more than one would guess. Yeah, but he's not.
- [39:53]
Sarah Haggie
I just don't think he would be the person I would wanna align myself with power wise. And you know what? There's no way that slop won't give you diarrhea. And the last thing you want in that scenario is to be having diarrhea.
- [40:08]
Sachi Cole
Listeners, don't forget, if there's an apocalypse and you have diarrhea, things are not going to go your way.
- [40:13]
Sarah Haggie
Yeah, don't eat the slop.
- [40:14]
Sachi Cole
Don't eat the slop, guys. Don't eat the slop. If you like scamplancers, you can listen to every episode early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondry.com survey. This is Jim and Tammy Faye Baker. The God Fraud Part 2. I'm Sachi Cole.
- [40:45]
Sarah Haggie
And I'm Sarah Haggie. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us@scamfluencerswondery.com and a reminder that our Scamflancers merch is now live@wonderyshop.com we use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the Second Coming of televangelist Jim Bakker by Kelsey McKinney and BuzzFeed News, the book the Rise and Fall of Jim and Tammy Faye Baker's Evangelical Empire by John Wigger and Charlie Shepard's reporting for the Charlotte Observer.
- [41:17]
Sachi Cole
Izzy Umpeal wrote this episode. Additional writing by us Sachi Cole and Sarah Hackey. Sarah Enny is our story editor and producer and Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact checking by Gabrielle Drollet Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze on Sync. Our coordinating producer is Desi Blaylock and our managing producer is Matt Gant. Janine Cornello and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Pirie. Our producers are John Reed, Yasmin Ward and Kate Young. Our senior producers are Ginny Blume and Jen Swan. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marcia Louie and Erin O'Flaherty. For Wondery.
- [42:04]
AT&T
From Wondry and Dr. Seuss from high atop Mount Crumpet. Tis the Grinch holiday Podcast. Tonight's special guest, he's the big mouth behind Big Mouth, and you can see him in the Christmas blockbuster Red One in theaters and available to stream on Prime Video now. Funnyman Nick Kroll.
- [42:27]
Jim Bakker
Hey, Nicky, how you doing?
- [42:29]
J
Good. How are you, Grinch?
- [42:30]
Jim Bakker
Oh, I'm pretty good. I'm doing pretty good today, buddy. Are you finding everything okay in here?
- [42:35]
J
Yeah, it's been awesome. Thanks so much.
- [42:37]
Jim Bakker
This is going to be fun.
- [42:38]
J
Yeah, I think we're going to have fun. I'm really excited. I was a little nervous because you're quite an intimidating character, but I feel like we've had some good chemistry here in this pre interview and I think it'll be fun.
- [42:46]
Guest Speaker
Whoa.
- [42:47]
Jim Bakker
All right, let's save it for the interview. Follow Tis the Grinch Holiday Podcast on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Unlock weekly Christmas mystery bonus content and listen to every episode ad free by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery App, Spotify or Apple Podcasts.