ENCORE: The Memory Maker Part 2 | 160

Summary

Scamfluencers Podcast Summary: "ENCORE: The Memory Maker Part 2 | 160"

Introduction

In the second installment of "The Memory Maker" series, Scamfluencers delves deeper into the enigmatic world of Teal Swan, a prominent self-help guru whose rise to fame is both captivating and controversial. Hosted by Sarah Haggie and co-hosted by Sachi Kol, this episode unpacks the intricate web of deception, manipulation, and unwavering influence that Teal Swan wields over her followers.

Teal Swan’s Rise and Early Influences

The episode begins by revisiting Teal Swan's early days, highlighting her emergence as a self-help guru on YouTube and social media. With millions of followers, Teal's platform is both impressive and contentious. Critics accuse her of promoting discredited psychological techniques and cultivating a cult-like following.

Key Moments and Relationships

In January 2014, Teal Swan marries Sardeep Singh Swan in Santa Barbara, California. Sachi Kol describes Sardeep’s appearance, noting his "big manly jaw" and "casual bridal outfit" ([01:54]). Their union, however, is short-lived. Teal's blog post announcing her decision to keep Sardeep’s last name is scrutinized, revealing potential ulterior motives behind their marriage. Sardeep later confides to Vice TV that Teal’s intentions may not have been purely personal but also strategic, aiming to legitimize her standing within the New Age community ([03:07]).

The Completion Process and Philia Center

Teal Swan introduces her "Completion Process," a psychological technique aimed at healing trauma by recovering repressed memories. This process is outlined in her third book, The Completion Process: How to Make Peace with Your Past and Live in the Present. The technique involves identifying emotional triggers and revisiting childhood memories, a method that many psychologists argue can implant false memories ([09:08]).

To expand her influence, Teal opens the Philia Center in Costa Rica in December 2016, a retreat center designed to host spiritual retreats and workshops. The center becomes a hub for her followers, who engage in intensive and often emotionally draining sessions ([08:07]).

Certification Program and Labor Concerns

Teal launches a certification program, allowing individuals to become certified practitioners of her Completion Process. The program costs $3,400 for a four-day course, attracting numerous followers despite the lack of required backgrounds in psychology or counseling. Critics, including journalist Jennings Brown, raise concerns about labor exploitation at the Philia Center, where members often work for free to support Teal’s expanding empire ([24:07]).

Documentary Exposure: "Deep End"

In October 2017, the documentary series "Deep End" is released, providing an unflinching look into Teal Swan’s practices. Filmmaker John Casby spends three years embedded with Teal and her followers, offering unprecedented access. The documentary portrays Teal as domineering and manipulative, sparking significant backlash. Teal responds by claiming the documentary misrepresents her personality, stating, "This episode did not show my softness, receptivity, workability, or humility" ([34:47]).

Internal Conflicts and Departures

The arrival of Juliana, a new member from Germany, marks a turning point within Teal’s community. Juliana’s integration leads to tensions, culminating in a heated argument captured by the documentary crew. Teal’s strict non-negotiables—prioritizing her over personal relationships and restricting travel—are highlighted as evidence of cult-like control ([26:22]).

Blake, a long-time follower and Teal’s significant supporter, chooses to leave Teal's inner circle following the fallout with Juliana. His departure signifies cracks within Teal’s tightly-knit community and raises questions about the sustainability of her influence ([25:58]).

Investigation by Private Investigator Molly Monahan

Teal’s team hires private investigator Molly Monahan to investigate allegations of her running a cult and causing suicides. Molly’s report finds no evidence of criminal activity but acknowledges the restrictive conditions Teal imposes on her followers. During a tense video call, Molly presents her findings to Teal, who reacts with visible frustration and denial ([29:01]).

Teal Swan’s Ongoing Influence and Criticism

Despite the documentary and internal conflicts, Teal continues to produce content, amassing over 1.5 million YouTube subscribers and a substantial following on TikTok. Her followers remain divided—some credit her with saving their lives, while others feel disillusioned and harmed by her methods. The episode concludes with reflections on Teal’s unbroken influence, underscoring the complex dynamics of charisma, control, and the human desire for meaning and belonging ([38:26]).

Notable Quotes

• Sachi Kol ([00:40]): "Everybody has to remark loudly and often about how good looking I am."
• Teal Swan ([08:22]): "I am completely in love with this place. We were divinely led here."
• Teal Swan ([14:34]): "I think for the sake of a good bout of self exposure here, I will tell you that the most painful thing that a human being could say to somebody who came through a cult experience is that they're leading a cult."
• Teal Swan ([16:01]): "What I'm facing is not just people slandering me. What I'm facing is people who are actually actively ruining my contracts and actively ruining my life."

Conclusion

"The Memory Maker Part 2" offers a comprehensive exploration of Teal Swan's methods, her rise to prominence, and the controversies that surround her. Through detailed narration and poignant interviews, Scamfluencers sheds light on the fine line between self-help and manipulation, leaving listeners to ponder the true nature of influence in the digital age.

Resources and Support

The episode sensitively addresses heavy topics such as mental health issues and suicide, urging listeners to approach the content with care. It also provides critical resources for those in need:

• National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255
• National Alliance on Mental Illness: 1-800-950-6264
• National Sexual Assault Hotline: [phone]

Acknowledgments

The podcast credits various sources, including the Gateway Podcast, Conspirituality Podcast, documentaries like "The Deep End" and "Open Shadow," and Teal Swan’s own works. Special thanks are given to Jared Dobson and Jennings Brown for their valuable contributions to the research.

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from "ENCORE: The Memory Maker Part 2 | 160," providing a comprehensive overview for those unfamiliar with the episode.

Transcript

[Sarah Haggie]

Hey there, Scamfluencers fans want to be the first to know how these wild scams unfold. Join us on Patreon to get early access to episodes, ad free listening and exclusive content that reveals even more of the drama. Just search for Scamfluencers on Patreon and dive deeper into the scandal. A heads up to our listeners. Today's episode discusses mental health issues and suicide. Listen with care, Sachi. You're someone who loves power. Let's not deny it. Correct. If you were a cult leader, what would your non negotiables be for your followers?

[Sachi Kol]

Everybody has to remark loudly and often about how good looking I am.

[Sarah Haggie]

Okay.

[Sachi Kol]

I'm not asking for a lot. You could start right now.

[Sarah Haggie]

Why do I need to be a.

[Sachi Kol]

Cult leader for that to happen? You could do it today.

[Sarah Haggie]

Okay. I literally tell you all the time that you're beautiful.

[Sachi Kol]

I know. That is true. It makes me really uncomfortable.

[Sarah Haggie]

Mine would definitely be that my followers have to make sure I'm always well fed.

[Sachi Kol]

Oh, that's a good one too.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay. We would have a great cult if you and I ever got, you know, active enough to do that.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. If we. If we took the initiative. Well, for someone like Teal Swan, who some people think is a bit of a cult leader, it seems like her biggest non negotiable is complete and unwavering loyalty. Which means never having to hear she's wrong, ever. And as you can imagine, that does not go well. It's January 2014 and teal swan is on a beach in Santa Barbara, California. She's wearing a white dress and staring into the eyes of her new husband, Sardeep Singh Swan. I actually have a picture of them from this day. Sachi, please describe it to us.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay. Sardeep seems like a nice guy. He's got a big manly jaw.

[Sarah Haggie]

Handsome guy.

[Sachi Kol]

Seems like a handsome guy. And he is wearing like a casual bridal outfit, I would say. And they're standing outside and they're kissing.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. They look like a lovely, beautiful couple.

[Sachi Kol]

They look like a very nice couple that my father would quietly criticize. Yes, correct.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, Teal met Sardeep just a few weeks earlier when he was hired as her bodyguard for one of her workshops in London. But this wasn't just a random gig for him. As he says later in a video Thiel posts online.

[Sachi Kol]

I came across Teal's teachings about a year ago maybe. And I thought she was absolutely fantastic. I thought she was very interesting. So I started to watch all her videos and then I sort of decided that I wanted to meet her. Oh, don't.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah, I mean, it's never a good sign when you kind of stand someone with the intention of meeting them. It's a very unleveled playing field.

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah, it never works.

[Sarah Haggie]

And Sardeep starts appearing in some of the vlogs. Teal films at her house in Park City, Utah. In a Facebook post, Teal announces she's taking her husband's last name, Sachi. Can you read what she wrote?

[Sachi Kol]

Yes. She writes that quote, there is deep spiritual significance to this decision. It is a more exalted name. Sardeep is from India, and there, the swan has great spiritual significance.

[Sarah Haggie]

Okay, you're Indian, Correct. Is this something that you've heard? Is it something that you know about?

[Sachi Kol]

I don't know. I haven't. I don't know. I can call my dad. You want me to call my dad and I can ask him? No, let me text him real quick and ask, do swans have any significance?

[Sarah Haggie]

I feel like the response he'll give is a whole podcast episode. That's worth asking, so I'll just move on. You will be shocked to hear that Teal and Sardeep's marriage gets rocky fast. They split up. But in a blog post on her website, Teel announces she's keeping his last name. And Sardeep tells Vice TV that in hindsight, Teel may have had an ulterior motive for wanting to be with him.

[Sachi Kol]

It was a brilliant marketing tool for her to have someone with a British accent but also with an Indian background. It legitimized her in the new age sort of community. 100%. I'm glad he sees it. I'm glad he saw it in record time. Good for him.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. I'm glad he was able to clock it.

[Sachi Kol]

Well, but speaking of him and his swan last name, my dad texted me back and he wrote back, it seems Saraswati, the goddess of knowledge and creative arts, has a swan as a ride. It is said if somebody has a melodious voice, that Saraswati is actually residing in that person's throat. It's a great compliment.

[Sarah Haggie]

So someone else has to give you that name. Someone else?

[Sachi Kol]

Someone else has to tell you, you are a swan to me. You can't just be like, I'm a swan. I mean, I don't know, maybe you can. Maybe you and I need to start doing that.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, Sardeep's not the only person close to Teal who has serious problems with what she's doing. Teel's focused on building a global movement. And to do that, she has to battle haters who accuse her of leading a cult and preaching dangerous messages about suicide. And it's starting to seem like the greatest threat to her growing empire is might just come from within.

[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

From Wondery. I'm Sarah Haggie. And I'm Sachi Kol and this is Scamfluencers. Come and give me your attention.

[Sachi Kol]

I won't.

[Sarah Haggie]

In our last episode, we followed Teal as she embraced her extra sensory gifts and built a self help empire in the early years of YouTube and social media. Teal's platform, with millions of followers is impressive and controversial. She's been criticized for talking about suicide as a quote reset Button and some of her teachings are based on discredited techniques for uncovering repressed memories of childhood abuse. Critics say she may be leading vulnerable people to create memories of things that never actually happened. And some claim Teal holds an almost cult like sway over her most loyal followers. As Teal's star rises, so does the backlash. This is the Memory Maker, Part 2 Legend. It's December 2016, and Teal Swan is standing in a lush green yard in Costa Rica. She's filming a video to announce that she's opening a new retreat center here.

[Teal Swan]

I am completely in love with this place. We were divinely led here. I set foot on this property and within two minutes I knew that this place was meant for not only myself, but for a lot of people that were looking for healing around the world.

[Sarah Haggie]

So this tropical paradise is the Philia Center. It's a place where she can host spiritual retreats and walk her followers through a psychological technique she created. She outlines it in her third book, the Completion, the practice of putting yourself back together again. The completion process starts with identifying a current emotional trigger and then trying to remember the first time you ever felt that way. It's about healing your inner child so you can move on from trauma. Around this time, Teal posts a video demonstrating the process. In it, Teal's video chatting with a young woman who has short brown hair. She's wearing a purple tank top with ruffles, and she's sitting in what looks like her bedroom. After making some small talk, Teal dives right in.

[Teal Swan]

So we gotta get you triggered. This is what I want you to do. I want you to think about the thing that's causing you the most pain in your life and start talking to me about it.

[Sachi Kol]

So she. I just want to be clear. She is very much saying the quiet part loud all the time.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yes. I mean, it's so wild to be like, let's get you triggered, babe. The woman tells Teal that she finds it hard to connect with people in groups. She feels unworthy and freezes up. When Teal asks her about the first time she felt this way, she describes an image that comes to her. A baby alone in a crib. Teal asks her to take on the baby's perspective and describe how she feels. The woman says she feels alone, and Teal tells her she's experiencing a memory of emotional neglect and that this likely happened a lot during her childhood. After about an hour, Teal ends a session by thanking the woman for being vulnerable and telling her that she loves her.

[Sachi Kol]

Is it bad that one of my red flags is if somebody tells me they love me too early or too often, like, what do you mean?

[Sarah Haggie]

I think this whole thing is that, you know, people think that if you tell them secrets about your life, that's the same thing as intimacy.

[Sachi Kol]

So, yeah, and it's not.

[Sarah Haggie]

But this video clearly resonates with people. It racks up more than 100,000 views on YouTube. But the approach is controversial. Most psychologists agree that by trying to, quote, recover old memories, you can actually implant false ones. And Thiel's not a licensed mental health practitioner, but in her book, she says her experience as a patient undergoing trauma therapy makes her qualified to develop her own practice and treat clients. Thiel's convinced that her completion process is revolutionary. But if she's the only one who knows how to lead clients through it, then its reach is limited. So she comes up with a plan to expand her empire. Not long after opening the Philia Center, Teal Teal starts certification program. Anyone who's interested can apply. No background in psychology or counseling required. Those who are accepted pay $3,400 for a four day course taught by Teal, often at the Philia center in Costa Rica. And no, airfare is not included.

[Sachi Kol]

I have a journalism degree from an okay Canadian journalism university. I'm not saying my degree is important, but I will say that full semester at that school cost as much as this four day course.

[Sarah Haggie]

I don't know which one's worth more.

[Sachi Kol]

Honestly, it's a toss up and, you.

[Sarah Haggie]

Know, like four days. I don't think it's enough.

[Sachi Kol]

Oh, four days is not enough for anything. Even if you're going on vacation for four days, the first day you're still stressed and the last day you're starting to get out of there.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah, and when they complete the course, their certificate is signed by Teal and and seemingly stamped with the Utah state seal. Dozens of people get certified and start taking on clients of their own. Some of them even make their own YouTube videos to share the techniques they use. This video is all about the completion process and how it can change your life. Today I have a special episode for.

[Sachi Kol]

My fellow CP practitioners and especially for.

[Sarah Haggie]

All the new ones that would like to have a bit more insights from an experienced practitioner. What Thiel's followers don't know is that the Utah state seal on their certificates is forged. And Utah isn't exactly happy about it. According to the Gateway podcast, the state of Utah sends Teal a cease and desist and a $500 fine for practicing without A license. But judging by her Facebook posts from around this time, she just keeps practicing. And soon she'll face an even bigger threat to her business. More and more people are publicly questioning her methods and accusing her of running a cult. In October 2017, a documentary called Open the Story of Teal Swan gets released online. The documentary paints her as a survivor of abuse who, against the odds, turned her pain and trauma into a kind of superpower. The director, Paola Marino, spent three years embedded with Teel and her followers. Paola isn't a believer, but she is fascinated by Teal's personality and passion. And Paula has incredible access. She even convinces Teal's parents to do an interview, which is rare. They don't speak about her ritual abuse story on the record. But here's what her mom does say about Doc, the veterinarian Teal says abused her. For 13 years.

[Teal Swan]

We trusted somebody and his wife that.

[Sachi Kol]

We shouldn't have trusted.

[Teal Swan]

And that's a cautionary tale for everyone that it can happen right under your nose and you don't know it.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay, well, it does seem like her parents believe that she was abused by Doc. And I'm not saying that he didn't abuse her. I just have doubts about him sewing her into a body.

[Sarah Haggie]

I mean, it's clear her family accepts that something very bad happened to her. Yeah, and I don't know for sure, but it seems like Teal's thrilled about Open Shadow. At least she seems inspired by the chance to speak directly to the concerns that her critics are posting online. Here's what she tells a documentary film cameras.

[Teal Swan]

I think for the sake of a good bout of self exposure here, I will tell you that the most painful thing that a human being could say to somebody who came through a cult experience is that they're leading a culture. It's my least favorite thing that people say about me. It destroys me.

[Sarah Haggie]

And haters have slammed Thiel's approach to suicide, even calling her the suicide catalyst. They point to the experience of Leslie Wainsgard. She's a woman we talked about in the last episode. She was one of Teal's earliest clients and supporters who took her own life. Critics also bring up testimony from others who talked to Teal about suicide. Up to this point, Teal's strategy has been to not engage with her critics. But the pushback has gotten so intense, she feels like she has to respond directly. So the same month the documentary is released, Teal makes a nearly two hour long YouTube video responding to the more serious allegations.

[Teal Swan]

What I'm facing is not just people slandering me. What I'm facing is people who are actually actively ruining my contracts and actively ruining my life.

[Sarah Haggie]

In the video, she's wearing a white dress buttoned up to her neck, and she looks anxious, annoyed, and maybe even a little angry. Teal claims people tank the ratings of her books online and even call the police to report her. In the same video, Teal addresses the claim that her work has caused people to take their own lives.

[Teal Swan]

My strategies with how to deal with suicide are abnormal because it's an abnormal condition. One of the most crucial things that you have to do is to realize that yes, you are at a choice point. It is your life. You get to decide whether to take it or not. And unless you realize that it's your choice, you can't actually consciously commit to life.

[Sarah Haggie]

Teal claims people tank the ratings of her books online and even call the police to report her. She says she wants to be judged on her content, not all the controversy around her and her personal story. She adds disclaimers to some of her videos, like about how she's not providing medical advice. She also includes information on how to reach suicide hotlines. And in September 2019, she uploads a YouTube video called Teal Swan's Stance on Suicide. In it, she says, to be crystal.

[Teal Swan]

Clear, I'm against suicide.

[Sarah Haggie]

Teal has forged her own path as a type of DIY New Age guru who interacts with real people on an extremely pretty personal level. But as her niche following grows, so does the criticism. Teal's in major brand crisis mode. She needs her inner circle to have her back. But when she tries to gain her biggest audience yet, it backfires in ways she could have never predicted. Summer is just around the corner and the folks at Mint Mobile have a hot take. Getting a summer bot is out and getting your savings bot is in. This spring and summer we want skimpy wireless bills and fat wallets.

[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Teal Swan]

I feel like I.

[Sarah Haggie]

In July 2020, a little less than a year after Teal uploaded a video about her stance on suicide, a new member joins her intentional community in Utah. Her name is Juliana and she's from Bavaria and Southern Germany. She's got long blonde hair and blue eyes. Juliana's main connection to Teal and to Utah is Blake. Sachi, do you remember Blake from our last episode?

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah, like Teal was dating him or courting him or something like that, right?

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. He was her first ever follower. She showed up in his bathtub that one night when he was gone and they dated for a year and then continued work relationship since then.

[Sachi Kol]

That's it.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, Juliana met Blake in 2017 at one of Teal's workshops in Germany. They hit it off and kept in touch and eventually developed a long distance relationship. After a couple years, Blake asked Juliana to come to Utah to live with him and Juliana decided to make the leap. This is a major deal in the world of Teal Swan. Blake is a big part of Teal's social media presence, and he has his own kind of following with Teal's fans. People thank him for saving Teal's life, and now he's bringing someone new into the mix. Juliana's arrival also leads to a major change at Teal Swan headquarters. After nearly two decades of living with Teal, Blake moves into a new apartment with Julianna. But Teal's nervous about letting Juliana into her inner circle. She tells Blake that he's taking a big risk. Anyone can decide to turn on Teal and tarnish her reputation online, just like Sardeep and Jared did.

[Sachi Kol]

This is like classic abuser stuff. Like, if you open your circle, anybody could take you away from me.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. And I can see how Teal can frame it, as, you know, I have.

[Sachi Kol]

All these enemies and people are coming after me. You have to protect me.

[Sarah Haggie]

And also, like, how do I know she's not gonna just say shit about me online with all this access she has into our lives or leak something?

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, despite her reservations, Teal welcomes Juliana into the fold. She blogs about Juliana, saying she's brave and fierce for moving to Utah. And when Blake decides to ask Juliana to marry him, Teal helps him figure out Juliana's ring size and plan a proposal. In a hot air balloon in November 2020, four months after Juliana moved to Utah, she and Blake tie the knot. She wears a long sleeved lacy gown and a tiara. They beam in each other's arms. Juliana is ready to start a new life with Blake. But being Blake's partner means being super close to Teal, and she may not be ready for what joining Teal's tribe really means. Around this time, a documentary crew starts recording Teal's every move. The filmmaker is named John Casby, and he's working on a miniseries for a major network. Teal's clearly on edge about her haters, but she probably sees this film as a way to defend herself, to show that she has nothing to hide. So she allows the cameras access to her inner circle. The camera crew captures Juliana facing the stark reality of being part of Teal's world. At some point, Teal reportedly even introduces requirements for her followers rules they agree to live by that are non negotiable. Former followers say it basically boils down to Thiel and her work. Always come first. Before family, before friends, before everything. Thiel tells Juliana that she can't even travel home to Germany to see her family. Thiel, by the way, later says in a video that she never discouraged Juliana from seeing or communicating with her family. But the people in Teal's inner circle aren't just making an intense emotional investment. They're also working, seemingly for free. They're making content, building Teal's website and marketing her worldwide tours. Jennings Brown, the journalist who hosted the Gateway podcast All About Teal Swan, told us he had concerns about labor exploitation when he visited Thiel's Philia center in Costa Rica. There were people that had kind of left their lives behind that were there working for her for free, just all day.

[Sachi Kol]

I mean, you never knew when you'd have to kind of drop everything and.

[Sarah Haggie]

Do some sort of shadow work with Teal.

[Sachi Kol]

And just as a journalist observing it, it was just psychically draining, emotionally draining.

[Sarah Haggie]

Teal's videos talk about maintaining healthy personal boundaries, but when it comes to the team of volunteers making her workshops run, it seems there aren't any. Everything is about Teal and what she needs. And under that kind of constant pressure to please her. Some cracks are beginning to show. Juliana's transition into Teal's inner circle is not going smoothly. One day, the documentary film crew captures a tense moment between Teal and Juliana. They're in a room at the Philia center in Costa Rica. There are colorful frequency paintings all over the yellow walls. And let's just say Teal is vibrating at an especially intense frequency right now. She's going off on her haters, pissed that people are questioning her methods and arguing that some of the criticism is sexist. Blake shifts in his chair. It looks like he's just waiting for Teal's rant to end. Juliana stares up awkwardly at the ceiling, like she wants to teleport out of the room. And then Teal and Juliana erupt into a tense argument. Basically, Juliana pushes back against Teal's aggressive teaching methods and Teal doesn't take it so well. She's seething, her jaw locked. Juliana glances at Blake, looking to see if he's got her back. But he doesn't say anything, at least from what we see in the documentary. He strokes his beard, visibly uncomfortable. Teal, his chosen family, the person he's been loyal to for so long, is lashing out at his wife.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay, Blake, better buck up for his wife. I hope that's how this ends well.

[Sarah Haggie]

Later, Teal calls a group meeting with her inner circle to discuss the problems she's having with Juliana, who's also in the room. They're all sitting on the floor. Teal's cross legged, barefoot, and she launches right in. Here's how this scene Plays out in the docuseries. The deep end.

[Teal Swan]

I am really angry today. I basically realized in the last few days that it's because a personal truth is not actually being shared. Juliana, that's what's happening with you. You feel like an adversary to me, and I need that to change.

[Sachi Kol]

I do not like the tone of this person's voice, but I can also see how this tone would be scary if you were, like, in this woman's fold and you kind of believe her bullsh and your whole life is wrapped up in it. Your husband's wrapped up in it. This would make me nervous.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. And when she says something like, a personal truth is not actually being shared, she means my personal truth.

[Sachi Kol]

Right.

[Sarah Haggie]

And it seems like the second you kind of push back, you are her adversary.

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, Teal says that Juliana has been insulting her since the day she arrived in Utah, that it's, quote, all over her energy field. Juliana says she's afraid, and Teal says she has a reason to be. Blake's eyes are fixed on Juliana as she speaks, but for a moment, he looks back to Teal. She looks like she's out for blood. She goes around the room and asks her inner circle what they think, and they tell Teal what she wants to that Juliana is threatened by Teal and jealous. Teal has contested her portrayal in the deep end, saying that many scenes were edited out of context for the sake of entertainment. The way it plays out in this scene, Blake rubs his face in disbelief. His legs are crossed, and he's sort of swaying. Eventually, he crosses the room to sit next to Juliana, who seems devastated. Blake looks like he's about to cry. He spent nearly 20 years by Teal's side, but after this blow up, he decides he no longer wants to be involved. It's a big deal. Up to this point, he's played a huge role in Teal's company, her online community, and her social media presence. After he leaves, Teal decides she needs to do some serious damage control. But what she does next will only make things more complicated. Private investigator Molly Monahan sits down at her computer and logs into a meeting from her home in Bellingham, Washington. Molly's a grandmotherly type with short gray hair, glasses, and red lipstick. And this is a big meeting for her. It's finally time to reveal the findings to her client. Teal's own team actually hired Molly to look into allegations that Teal is running a cult.

[Sachi Kol]

Okay, so Teal hired her to look into Teal.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yes. Teal's team is probably hoping to put the allegations to bed once and for all and to show the world they're doing their due diligence. Molly worked on a case about an alleged cult before a spiritual teacher in Washington State hired her to do a report on one of his critics. And Molly's report found no evidence of a crime and calls their biggest critic a malicious cyber stalker. For this investigation, Molly seemingly got unparalleled access to members of Teal's inner circle, including Blake. She also talked to former followers like Teal's ex boyfriend Jared and people who've been critical of her online. Now, after nearly a year long investigation, Molly's ready to deliver her verdict. In the docu series A Deep End, Molly and Teal connect over video chat. Teal's sitting on a couch next to her PR manager. She's draped in a shawl and wearing dangly turquoise earrings. Molly reminds Teal that she was hired to answer two critical questions. Does she cause suicide? And is she leading a cult? After a brief pause, Molly delivers her verdict. No. And maybe. Teal's blue eyes widen in surprise. Molly can tell that this is not what she was expecting to hear. She says she finds no evidence that Teal has caused anyone to die by suicide. But she goes through the list of things that caused her to suspect Teal may be running a cult. For example, the conditions she puts on people coming to work for her. At some point in her investigation, it appears that Molly was provided a document of these rules, literally called Teal's non negotiables. They include Teal's expectations that people close to her prioritize Teal over their own family, that they aren't allowed to have personal boundaries that affect Teal in any way. And that if people want to have a normal life, they should not choose to be a part of her inner circle. Teal seemingly does not take this well. She gets visibly frustrated with Molly on the call and denies that she limits her followers relationship relationships or pressures them to prioritize her above almost everything else.

[Sachi Kol]

Well, I mean, Teal has no one to blame but herself. She hired this woman to do this.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah, I mean also it's in your non negotiables. Teal. What are you talking about? Clearly, after she hangs up the call, Molly probably feels a sense of relief wash over her. She's done with the hard part, breaking the news to Teal. But her words have fallen on deaf ears and she suspects her findings will never see the light of day. But there was someone watching that call. In fact, an entire documentary crew, and they'll make the explosive exchange public, creating the greatest threat yet to Teal's reputation.

[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Kol]

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[Sarah Haggie]

When the docu series the Deep End comes out on Hulu in May 2022, it gets a lot of press. Everyone from the Washington Post to Joe Rogan is talking about it. At times, Teal comes across as a New Age mean girl. It shows how being in Teal's orbit can be psychologically challenging for the people closest to her. Teal is not happy with how she's portrayed. She fires back In a series of Facebook videos, she argues that the editing in the first episode of the Deep End is misleading that it makes her come off as hard, dismissive, domineering, jealous and angry.

[Teal Swan]

This episode did not show my softness, receptivity, workability, or humility. It didn't show the reality of my multifaceted personality.

[Sarah Haggie]

In another response video, she I admit.

[Teal Swan]

That just like anyone, I can get angry, but they showed my anger totally out of context to tell a story that isn't true, especially about my relationship with Blake and Giuliana.

[Sarah Haggie]

She says she feels misunderstood and she probably feels betrayed, too. After trusting the film crew and giving them full access to her life and her community. She even leaks a video of the filmmaker, John Casby, wishing her a happy birthday. Hope you're having a great day. I speak for the whole film crew and I say we have so much appreciation and gratitude to you and everyone.

[Sachi Kol]

On your team for welcoming us into.

[Sarah Haggie]

Your lives and into your family.

[Sachi Kol]

Uh, yeah, this is. This is how documentary crews talk to their subjects when they want to maintain access. I think it's bad. I don't think this is a good way to talk to a subject that you don't agree with.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, we reached out to the producers of the Deep End and they sent us this statement. The series is an honest representation of what we experienced over three years. We were transparent with Teal and her team about every part of our process from shooting through editing. The results speak for themselves, and we remain grateful to everyone who agreed to participate in the series. And even though Teal takes issue with how she's portrayed in the documentary, it does raise her profile. She continues to pump out content on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok. In some ways, despite her haters, Teal Swan is bigger than ever. Sachi, I've got some updates about what happened after the camera stopped rolling. Blake and Juliana are still living in Utah and are now running a tourism company. According to his Facebook page, Blake is also working as a school bus driver. He hasn't said much about Teal's response to the film and he declined to speak with us for this story. But Juliana's social media pages provide some insight into how she feels. She replies with thank yous on Instagram to people who said negative things about Teal.

[Sachi Kol]

I love that it's so needless.

[Sarah Haggie]

It's really funny. Jared Dobson, Teal's ex boyfriend, also appeared in the Deep End. He told us he's feeling much better, but is still processing his experiences in Teal's community.

[Sachi Kol]

That's great. I'm glad that there are some Good endings in this wretched story.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. And Teal is still making content for her roughly 1.5 million YouTube subscribers and her hundreds of thousands of followers on TikTok. Even with the bad press, her fan base is continuing to grow. Say what you want about Teal, people are drawn to her and want to hear her message. Jennings Brown says he's heard from some of Teal's followers since his podcast came out. Some felt they've put a lot of time and money into her teachings, but wound up feeling worse. Other people feel Teal has truly helped them and some say she's the reason they're alive today. While this has been a real journey, Sachi, I know most of the other people we feature on this show had like this rise to greatness and then they got caught and their empires crumble. But Teal's is very much still intact.

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah, this is kind of a bummer end to this episode because there isn't a lot of accountability. It's maybe a testament to how lost.

[Sarah Haggie]

A lot of people are.

[Sachi Kol]

We're all just looking for some meaning.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know, one thing she does say in the doc is that she wants to be like the most famous self help guru person on earth.

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah. This is a skill free person who has no other mechanism to garner influence in the world. And so the only way she can do it is by like making up all these weird stories about how powerful she is. I mean that's really what this comes down to, right? Like she thinks that she has some superiority over every other person in the world. She can speak to her own trauma and to other people's trauma unlike anybody else. And if you defy her, it's akin to defying a God.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah, it's kind of like this. I'll show you thing of she will be the most famous person in the world when it comes to self help.

[Sachi Kol]

The reality is that like what she is prescribing is not reasonable, it's not helpful and it has no merit in any kind of science. She'll never be the most famous anything because her backstory is I was once sewn into somebody's body and left there for a day.

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, here's the thing, not everything she says is totally bonkers.

[Sachi Kol]

No, certainly she says a lot of.

[Sarah Haggie]

Like, you know, basic normal self help stuff and I think a lot of people see that and she gets, you know, a ton of views or whatever. She's like also operating in the space of like the TikTok sphere of psychologists who are telling you about boundaries and Blah, blah, blah. That sounds so reasonable. And people kind of just internalize it and move on type of thing. So it's also, like, pretty interesting that she's reaching people outside of her whole sphere of her teachings and everything. There's like, also this level of it of just being an online person that she has, and I think that's pretty fascinating. And I think that's kind of why she won't really stop, you know?

[Sachi Kol]

Yeah. I mean, maybe she will subside off of these little blips of attention she gets if she, like, goes mini viral on TikTok for a day.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. I think that the thing is, like, most people are staying at the middle level of, like, here's someone who's experienced a lot in her life, a lot of bad. And she's talking about trauma in this way that feels very realistic and very personal and that, you know, she helps people feel seen. And she's very. No nonsense in her delivery, which I think is also a huge draw for people, like, watching this documentary. I was just so drawn to seeing her life play out because it just goes to show the lengths people will go through to feel like they belong. And it's like you're picking Teal Swan here.

[Sachi Kol]

I think this is someone who very clearly has a lot of trauma, and I don't know where that trauma is rooted and I don't know where it's from, and they have chosen to weaponize it against other people and has. I don't think she understands this, but she is behaving like an abuser because she actually isn't dealing with anything that's ever happened to her or any mental health struggle she's having or any emotional distress. She's just causing damage. I feel sorry for her.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. There's one scene in particular in the docu series the Deep End that really stuck out to me. Someone who's there asks her. One thing that I kind of question and wonder about is, and I'm paraphrasing is, you know, where are your mentors? Who are the people you're listening to? And she obviously gets very upset by this question because she's like, what's the problem? That there's no one I look up to. There's no one like me on Earth. I've never met anyone smarter than me, so who am I gonna follow, and why is that a problem for you? And you're like, oh, okay, there it is. If anyone's claiming to be the smartest person in the world, it's probably not true. And I don't think the smartest person in the world really needs to tell you that they are.

[Sachi Kol]

You know what? That's actually the lesson in a room. If you need help, look for a dummy. Look for a self professed ding dong. That person probably knows what to do, you know?

[Sarah Haggie]

Sure, I'll let you have that. Why?

[Sachi Kol]

How do I know that? Because if I was in a room I would tell everybody that I'm a genius and I don't know anything. So what you gotta do is look for the humble idiot. That person will probably have an answer.

[Sarah Haggie]

Look for the forced gump of the room.

[Sachi Kol]

That is a Listen, I'm kind of convinced that this is a Buddhist saying. Look for the quietest idiot.

[Sarah Haggie]

All right.

[Sachi Kol]

Put it on a yoga mat. Do some downward dog loving Scamflancers get exclusive episodes and early access to new ones. All ad free on Wondry Plus. Join now in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Before you go, help us out by taking a quick [e-mail] survey foreign this.

[Sarah Haggie]

Is the memory maker part two. I'm Sarah Haggie.

[Sachi Kol]

And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email [e-mail] we use.

[Sarah Haggie]

Many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the Gateway Podcast, Conspirituality Podcast, the Mormon Stories Podcast, the documentaries the D, Deep End and Open Shadow and Vice TV's episode on Teal and of course, Teal's own books and videos including Sculptor in the sky, the Completion Process and Shadows Before Dawn. Special thanks to Jared Dobson and Jennings Brown for taking the time to talk with us.

[Sachi Kol]

In this episode, we discussed sexual violence, depression and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline can be reached reached at 1-800-273-8255. The National alliance on Mental Illness is available at 1-800-950-6264. If you or someone you know is a victim of sexual assault, you can contact the National Sexual Assault hotline in the US by calling 1-800-656-HOPE. That's 1-800-656-4673. Additional resources are available in our show.

[Sarah Haggie]

Notes Suzy Armitage wrote this episode. Additional writing by us Sachi Kol and Sarah Hagie. Our senior producer is Jen Swan. Our producer is John Reed. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Piri. Our story editor and producer is Sarah Enni. Our story editor is Alison Weintraub. Sound design by James Morgan Fact checking by Gabrielle Drollet Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. For Freeson Sync. Our managing producer is Matt Gant and our senior Managing producer is Tanja Thigpen. Kate Young and Olivia Richard are our series producers. Our senior story editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Our Senior producer is Ginny Blum. Our executive producers are Jeanine Cornello, Stephanie Jens, Jenny Lauer, Beckman and Marshall Louis. For Wondery.

[Sachi Kol]

Lamont Jones world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County Penns, a chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man's search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story, it's happening right now. Follow Death County PA on the way Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus.