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Wondery subscribers can listen to Scamfluencers early.
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And ad free right now. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or Apple Podcasts. A heads up to our listeners. This episode contains references to gun violence. Wonder Sarah do you think you can be manipulated out of a bad habit? Like if you were a smoker, do you think hypnotism would help?
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You know, one thing you will learn about me right now is that I have tried hypnosis and it did work for me. I think in the right circumstances for something like smoking, it has actually helped people I know.
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Oh, interesting. I once went to a hypnotist to help me get over my fear of flying and it didn't work. But do you know what did? Klonopin Yeah, I feel like that's the.
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Kind of thing where drugs definitely work and you need them.
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Well, my friend, we have a frustrating one today. A pseudo doctor taking advantage of people's fears and anxieties through nonsense medicine. Oh, and he loves cocaine. It's a February morning in the early 80s. About 16 students are filing into a room in Santa Cruz, California. They're here to see a self help guru named Richard Bandler. Richard's seminars are a hot ticket thanks to a system he started developing 10 years ago called Neurolinguistic Programming, or NLP. It's a special blend of psychology, hypnotism and linguistics that Richard claims can help people make permanent, near magical change in themselves. Over the last decade, NLP has become incredibly popular. One of Richard's theories is that anyone can change with the right stimulus, and he wants to prove that. Today he stands in front of the crowd, probably in his typical uniform, a 70s era collared shirt, an unbuttoned vest and skinny dress pants. His light brown hair is fluffy and cropped. He looks like an ex hippie who likes car tricks. As part of his demonstration, Richard asks for a volunteer from the crowd and a student raises his hand. The student says he's skeptical about whether he can change and he jokes that the only thing that could force him to would be someone holding a gun to his head. Richard starts to smile because guess what? He just so happens to have a pistol in his pocket. Richard pulls the gun out. It's brassy and about 3 inches long. The student stares at it and he isn't scared at first. Surely this renowned thinker wouldn't actually shoot him. Richard teases the class, saying that they have no idea how nuts he is. And besides, he wouldn't actually have to kill the student, merely wounding him would be enough to get the job done. Richard keeps taunting the student, waving the gun around carelessly and suggesting that he's just crazy enough to use it. The student starts to panic and finally relents. Okay, yes, the gun is effective. He changed to avoid being shot by the scholar he came to see. Richard turns back to the rest of the class, smug and satisfied. Richard's unpredictable, joker esque behavior is part of what made him famous in the first place. This gun incident isn't even the strangest thing Richard's done. In a seminar, he says he once helped a man become so unafraid of heights that the man jumped off of a bridge. And while his style may not be for everyone, it does intrigue people enough for his methodology to become a phenomenon. Since its inception, it started seeping into everyday life in unassuming ways. If you've ever heard that you should mirror the behavior of your boss to get a raise, that's nlp. Some say that at best, NLP is a repackaging of preexisting psychological theories, and at worst, it's pure snake oil. But whatever it is, Richard is peddling it hard. He's willing to go to extreme lengths to prove that NLP works. And this winter morning in Santa Cruz won't be the last time Richard plays with guns. Just a few short years later, Richard Bandler will be charged with murder all right, Audible's best of 2024 picks are here, so discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts, and originals in all your favorite genres.
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That's right. From memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers, Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in AUD entertainment.
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Exactly like a stunning new full cast production of George Orwell's 1984 or heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one.
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There's also the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. I would love to listen to Sally Rooney's Intermezzo. It just came out this year and I think it was one of my favorite 24 releases.
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Shopify.comscampod from Wondry I'm Saatchi Cole.
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And I'm Sarah Hackey.
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And this is Scamfluencers. Come and give me your attention. I won't ever learn my lesson. Turn my speaker to 11. I feel like a legend. Today we're talking about Richard Bandler, the godfather of modern mental manipulation. He revolutionized the world of self help, all thanks to an approach he developed called Neuro Linguistic programming. But this story is not just about Richard Bandler the man. It's about Richard. The movement NLP has helped a lot of people since Richard created it in 1975. And as it caught on, Richard collected hundreds of thousands of followers. But while his ideas taught some students to control their impulses, others called it pseudoscience, nothing more than a route to fame and fortune. For Richard, NLP methods have been criticized for being dangerous in the wrong hands. And Richard's teachings have gone on to inspire some of the most toxic and criminal self help movements of the last two decades. This is Richard Bandler, the self help scammer. From his earliest years growing up in New Jersey in the 50s, Richard Bandler is desperate for guidance. Richard's father leaves when he's five years old and later when his mom remarries, he gets a stepfather who's no better. He's violent and dangerous to the point of breaking Richard's bones. Richard claims that when he was 10, as revenge on his stepdad, he electrifies his family's front door keyhole when it's raining and sends the guy to the hospital for six months.
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I'm going to go ahead and say I do not believe that. That is something you only see in a cartoon. Not real.
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Yeah, it's like a Looney Tunes murder plot. Richard is not always the most reliable narrator. When he's a teenager in the mid-60s, his family moves from New Jersey to Sunnyvale, a suburb in Northern California. By this point, he's grown into a Skinny, withdrawn teen with a speech impediment, bad acne, and difficulty focusing at school. The move to California seems to make things worse. Richard becomes even more rebellious. Luckily, he finds solace in one drumming. Richard dreams of making it big as a musician, and he practices compulsively. He even gets hired to teach drums to a kid in his town named Dan. And It's Dan's father, Dr. Robert Spitzer, who changes the course of Richard's life forever. Dr. Spitzer is a California psychiatrist with a clean cut, suburban dad vibe. He looks like he could present the weather, fill your prescription, or teach you high school physics. And he sees potential in Richard. So Dr. Spitzer invites him into his world, the world of psychiatry. Dr. Spitzer is also a publisher of science books and lends Richard books about the human mind and self acceptance, which Richard devours. With Dr. Spitzer's encouragement, Richard's curiosity and confidence blossom. So when Richard heads to junior college at the end of the 60s, he majors in psychology. He even gets a girlfriend, and they live together in the hills above Santa Cruz in a small trailer. He rounds out his days taking long walks through the forest, working in the warehouse at Dr. Spitzer's publishing company, and experimenting with drugs like acid and weed. Besides his relationships with his girlfriend and Dr. Spitzer, Richard's mostly a loner. But not for long. He's about to enroll at the University of California's new campus in Santa Cruz, where he finally finds someone whose intense passion for understanding human behavior matches his own. In 1970, Richard starts at UC Santa Cruz. By this point, he's so familiar with basic psychological principles that he starts leading his own study groups, and he's even giving other students therapy. He's become a promising and rebellious leader who's totally comfortable in his own skin. And Santa Cruz turns out to be the perfect place for him to flourish. It's a haven for freedom and boundary pushing. And this is only a few years after the Summer of Love, so experimentation is still very much in style. It's around this time that Richard sits in on a linguistics class that he's super excited about. The professor is a charismatic guy in his 30s named John Grinder. John is the kind of cool guy professor who wears relaxed jeans and white T shirts. He often leans casually against a desk while he talks about linguistic theory. He likes to share stories about his time as both a Green Beret and a protester of the Vietnam War. As you can imagine, he's got a mystique around campus. But cool vibe aside, Richard is most Drawn in by John's lessons about how language affects our brains and behavior, students around campus give John's class a nickname. Mind fucking 101.
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Yeah, I mean, obviously any class with that nickname will be extremely popular.
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Yeah, I would probably take that class myself. Well, Richard is fascinated by John's teachings, and he invites John to observe the counseling and therapy groups he's running on campus. The two quickly hit it off. They're both anti establishment, confrontational and intentionally bold. They especially bond over their love of Noam Chomsky and neuroscience. And John is a decade older, so he becomes something of an older brother figure to Richard. Over time, Richard and John become less like professor and student and more like peers. And John genuinely thinks Richard has the makings of a genius. They work together to challenge each other's thinking, specifically around their respective passions, linguistics and psychology. And soon they will retreat to an unexpected utopia in the woods to see where this experimentation can take them. It's the mid-70s and Richard Bandler is having roommate problems. Well, more accurately, communemate problems. He's graduated from college and has gotten into some really California in the 70s shit. He's moved into a nudist colony turned commune in the Santa Cruz mountains. The commune is owned by Richard's old mentor, Dr. Spitzer, who has a utopian vision for the place. He wants to create a paradise for people to pursue their intellectual passions, and he's invited Richard to join them. At this point, Richard is a 25 year old postgrad. He's got his bachelor's degree plus a master's in theoretical psychology. But Richard hits the group like a tornado. He doesn't contribute to chores, he can be emotionally volatile, and he talks nonstop about his drug of cocaine.
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I mean, listen, you didn't need to tell me he was doing cocaine.
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Yeah, he's got big cocaine energy. While the other members of the commune are pretty impressive, they include the mother of the Home Birth movement and an anthropologist responsible for a groundbreaking theory about schizophrenia. But Richard's a messy party boy. He's so irritating to the other residents that they band together to kick him out. Ultimately, Dr. Spitzer gets the final say and decides to let Richard stay. He can't help but protect him like a son. Richard also has another ally at the his old professor and friend, John Grinder. The two men spend their evenings talking about psychology and honing their ideas for a new life philosophy they have yet to name. Their goal is to create a new kind of therapy that will give people dramatic results. They study the approaches of famous therapists and identify which schools of psychotherapy have had the best outcome statistically. They talk about what kinds of therapies they don't like, especially the current thinking in the field, which is that a patient can get over a bad experience just by rehashing it with a professional. In their opinion, living through it once is enough. Here's Richard talking years later about this on the Changing Minds podcast.
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Everybody got stuck on the notion that if you found out what went wrong, that you would go aha. And it would disappear. And it didn't talk about the future, it didn't talk about what you replaced it with or how you develop.
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Richard and John start to experiment with hypnotism, even inviting some of John's students for nighttime sessions. During one of them, a hypnotized man supposedly retrieves a repressed memory about a terrible car accident, which allows him to finally move past it. Outside all of this theorizing and experimentation, Richard's also figuring out the tenets of his new philosophy in a much less formal way. He says the ideas, mostly around how to use language to change one's thinking, come to him as hallucinations as he sits in his little cabin listening to rain falling, typing away on his typewriter. And that's how he comes up with the basic idea behind neuro linguistic programming. Through the use of mimicry language and specific hypnosis techniques, people can overcome mental and emotional barriers. Unlike traditional talk therapy, Richard thinks of it as a more direct and intense way for people to reprogram themselves. He sums up a pretty typical NLP message on the Changing Minds podcast.
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If you have a voice that says you'll never amount to something, you have to have a voice that says, oh yeah, watch this. Start talking to yourself in a better voice, making better pictures, and spinning your feelings in a direction that feels good.
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Neuro linguistic programming is formally introduced to the world in 1975. Sarah, had you ever heard of NLP before today?
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No, I have not heard of it until this very moment. But it kind of sounds to me like garden variety pseudo psychology that like, draws from things that actually exist, but then kind of takes it to a non scientific level almost.
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Yeah, I mean, look, NLP isn't as groundbreaking as Richard would like to think. He pulls a lot from existing ideas and theories. But it is interesting to the new age crowd and they run with it. After all, it debuts right as the modern wellness movement is gaining traction. If you ever saw the last episode of Mad Men where Don Draper visits the Esalen Institute, that's a real Place right up the coast from the commune where NLP was created. This is also right in the middle of what was called the Me Decade, an era of epic American narcissism and self discovery. Richard thinks he's onto something big. He claims that people can use NLP to resolve past trauma, cure phobias, treat addiction, and influence others around them. And it seems like others agree. NLP is gaining traction. It's only a matter of time before Richard's public profile and his audience blows up. In 1975, Richard and John published their first book, the structure of Magic, Volume 1, and a lot of people are intrigued. So Richard and John take their show on the road. They start hosting NLP seminars, which are a unique experience. People shell out $1,000 in 1970s money to be there, enticed by promises that NLP can cure phobias in 10 minutes and addictions in an afternoon. Once the attendees take their seats, Richard and John launch into their routine. They talk shit about modern therapy, saying that therapists fail to cure their patients so they can get paid week after week. And the two men are a great double act. John is formal and polished, while Richard is unpredictable and confrontational. The tension in the seminars is palpable because if they call on you, you're going to have to open up about your biggest issue on stage in front of the entire crowd. For some, Richard and John's unconventional methods seem to work. One woman overcomes her fear of heights by singing the Star Spangled Banner while approaching a third floor window. Another woman is convinced to stop smoking in a mere 11 minutes after Richard tells her to picture herself politely enjoying other people's smoking. Richard's go to method for getting over phobias is something he calls the rewind technique. He tells the volunteer to imagine themselves sitting in the front row of a movie theater. On the screen in front of them, their phobia starts playing in Technicolor. Maybe for the volunteer it's a writhing pile of snakes or standing naked in front of a crowd. He then prompts the volunteer to imagine the scene slowly fading to gray and then pictured themself actually entering the movie screen and stepping into the scene. Now, from inside the movie, the volunteer watches their phobia play out again in black and white. But this time they imagine their fear is gone. The movie rewinds at double speed, and when they return to their imaginary theater seat, the movie starts again, back in color. If they can watch it without reacting, they are cured. Rinse and repeat. If not, here's Richard talking about his method in an interview with Ronald amsler of the NLP Institute in Zurich in 2005.
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Fear is always something that moves in some kind of circle. And literally, if you turn it around and spin it in the opposite direction, it's no longer fear. It mostly turns into curiosity. And if you use your imagination in a structured way, you can be able to restructure the way you think and the way you feel and the way you talk to yourself.
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By the late 70s, Richard and John are gaining followers at a rapid clip. With the rising wave of interest. They release a second book called Frogs into Princes, which sells more than 270,000 copies over the next decade, a huge feat for a psychology book in those days. Richard finds himself surrounded by supporters hanging on his every word. He's psyched to be the hot new guy on the self help scene. But like with most things, as NLP gets more popular, the critics appear. They say the whole thing is just based on the theories of other established therapists, originally packaged but not original. And it's not necessarily based in provable science. But then again, therapy is varied and complicated, and if it works for you, it works for you, you know? Sarah, what do you think about it?
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I think it's pretty easy for someone to believe a specific type of treatment that is not really proven by any real science can. Especially out of desperation, you know what I mean? Like something that is so new it takes a lot of time to prove if it actually works. So I just don't buy stuff like this.
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Well, critics aside, Richard is thriving. He's 28 around this time and finally seems to be settling down. He marries a woman named Leslie Cameron, who is petite with a chic blonde bob. She's also deep in NLP and is working on developing her own programs within Richard's system. With all their NLP money, the couple buys a luxury home in the California mountains with a swimming pool, a greenhouse and a tennis court. They fill the garage with all the essentials for new money. Newlyweds, a Fiat Spider, two BMWs, and for Richard, a small collection of guns. They've made it to new heights, but from up there in the mountains, it's a long way to fall. What's your favorite way to embrace the cozy autumn vibes? Curling up with a good book, sipping hot apple cider, or maybe wrapping yourself in a luxuriously soft sweater?
- [20:43]
A
Probably all of the above for me. Speaking of cozy sweaters, have you heard about Quince's Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at just $50? It's like wrapping yourself in a warm hug on a chilly fall day. All their Items are priced 50 to 80% less than comparable luxury brands because they partner directly with top factories to eliminate the cost of the middleman.
- [21:03]
B
I just bought a bunch of things from Quince as I do every season. Basically I am very excited about the sweaters. But Sarah, I can't stop wearing the bodysuits. They are so comfortable. They make me look very hot.
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A
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So go to Philo TV and check it out for a free seven day trial. That's P H I L O TV to start watching. I feel like I it's 1980 and Richard Bandler has pushed his wife Leslie to the absolute edge for the past two years. She supported Richard as NLP became a total phenomenon. But the honeymoon phase is definitely over. Richard's now 30 and his love for partying and experimentation has blossomed into a full on cocaine addiction. One day he chokes Leslie and threatens to use his vast connections to have her and her friends killed. So Leslie files for divorce.
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A
This is kind of exactly the trajectory I expected this man to have. You know, saying he could fix people through this methodology he refined and then being a completely different person behind the scenes.
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Well, it's around this time that Richard and his NLP co creator John also have a falling out. They disagree on the future of nlp. They'd found some success adapting their techniques for white collar salespeople in companies like IBM, which played a big part in making them rich. In 1980 alone, the company Richard set up for NLP brought in $800,000. John wants to keep teaching seminars in the lucrative business world, but Richard disagrees. He wants to focus on the therapeutic possibilities of nlp. With neither of them willing to compromise, they stop working together less than a decade after they founded NLP. Then, in 1981, Richard takes their beef a step further. He files a lawsuit against his former friend and business partner, accusing him of unfair practices and breach of contract. The suit is settled in Richard's favor, and it grants John a ten year license to use NLP in seminars, but only if he pays royalties to Richard. As it turns out, between his splashy lifestyle, his divorce, and various legal battles over NLP copyright issues, Richard needs the money. Because in 1983, even with the expected royalties from John, the company that manages Richard's NLP practice goes bankrupt. Between his business, his marriage, and his best friend, Richard is losing everything that was keeping him stable. And with no one to keep him in check, his drug habit and hot temper start to run wild. Richard's desperate for company and more coke. And he finds both in an acquaintance that he met a few years earlier named James Marino. James is a Sicilian American drug dealer and convicted burglar. About 18 years older than Richard, James has an athletic build and a bushy old mustache. He loves diamond rings and white loafers. When Richard originally met him at a restaurant in Santa Cruz, they bonded over their love of coke, which James generously provided to Richard for free. And now that Richard's lonely, he reconnects with James. Though they're not a likely pair, James admires Richard's accomplishments and Richard likes the idea of having a street smart Sicilian buddy. While his previous mentors fed Richard's curiosity, James feeds his paranoia. He's more interested in sharing his fears and drugs than any philosophical ideas. Richard's downward spiral intensifies and he even starts regularly carrying a gun. Even though Richard's company went bankrupt, NLP as a practice is still hot and Richard's expertise is more in demand than ever. In the early 80s, the US military creates a committee to explore the benefits of NLP. They hire Richard to consult on projects aimed at things like helping soldiers develop leadership skills and become better shooters. Richard makes a lot of claims about his time working for the military. He says he taught them a foundational NLP tactic called modeling. It's basically fake it till you make it as a psychological tactic. Want to learn how to play guitar? Model the behavior of A gifted guitarist, want to be more comfortable at parties, model the behavior of a social butterfly. And according to Richard, it's how he's able to teach a 10 year old to be an expert sniper in the Army.
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A
I'm not really sure what the point of NLP is like. So it's this thing that's supposed to heal people, but then also help them commit violent acts.
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B
It seems almost like it's designed for wish fulfillment. Whatever your wish is.
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Yeah. It's like anything you want to do, we can help you do it.
- [26:42]
B
Yeah.
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And if that means turning a 10 year old into an expert sniper, we will do it.
- [26:47]
B
Exactly. Well, Richard also gets invited to Washington to give seminars to CIA agents. And he claims that he taught them his pain control methods so well that he was able to put an ice pick through an agent's hand. But a lot of this is according to Richard. And Richard loves to embellish. He calls himself Dr. Bandler, even though he doesn't have an MD or a PhD. And he kind of describes himself like the world's most interesting man. He says he owned a topless bar when he was just a teenager. Oh, and he's apparently a black belt in karate. To Richard, a man is nothing without mystique. Despite this showy new phase of his career, Richard is struggling to keep his personal life afloat. When he's not teaching NLP to the army, he's chasing gin with cocaine, sometimes using a straw to suck the coke straight into his mouth. Acquaintances notice that he's acting weird, and Richard's paranoia is starting to feel menacing to the people around him. But no one dares say anything, because along with barring the windows of his house and getting a trained German shepherd for protection, he's also amassing a stockpile of guns. Richard's desperately trying to protect himself from some imagined danger, but what he can't see is that he's the dangerous one. It's a few days before Halloween in 1986, and James, Richard's drug dealer pal, is headed to a party with his girlfriend, Corinne Christensen. Corinne is 31 years old and the daughter of a San Francisco copy. She has loose dark curls, angular cheekbones, and a healthy curiosity about spiritualism and self help. She and James met two years earlier when she worked as a masseuse and a sex worker, and they hit it off despite their 22 year age gap. As his devoted girlfriend, Corinne started helping James out with his drug business. Unfortunately, all that access turns her regular coke habit into a serious addiction. But James and Corinne's relationship is on the rocks because as it turns out, James is in love with another woman. He's ready to end things with Corinne so that he can move to Florida and start a new life. But he agrees to one last hurrah with her before he goes. As soon as Corinne and James arrive at that night's Halloween party, things get scary fast. A man walks up and brutally attacks James, leaving him with missing teeth and a fractured skull. Corinne calls a cab to take them to the ER and when he's discharged, she takes him home and spends three days nursing his wounds. But as James recovers at Corinne's house, he starts to spiral. He convinces himself that Corinne orchestrated the whole attack because of their impending breakup to show him that she can hurt him back and that she's actually angling to take over his coke business. Still dizzy and recovering from the attack, James flees to his own house and self medicates with codeine and alcohol. A couple of days later, he's out at a restaurant when he starts feeling dizzy again. So he calls his best friend Richard. Richard hadn't known about the beating, and he's shocked to find James with a bruised face and slurred speech. James tells him about the party, and Richard, who is deep in his own mania, is completely on board with James theory about Corinne. He's angry on his friend's behalf and decides to take James back to his home to lay low and rest. James spends the night sleeping on Richard's couch, but at dawn, he wakes up in the dark. He sees someone sitting on his bed. It's Richard holding a tape player. Richard says that while James was sleeping, he confronted Corinne in the office behind his house, and he recorded the interaction, presumably to catch her if she made any confessions. Richard hits play, and while it's hard to make out the words, James can tell that it's Richard and Corinne fighting. Richard badgers Corinne about what happened to James, and when she dodges his questions, he makes a if she doesn't answer, he'll blow her brains out. After playing this recording for his friend, Richard insists that he and James both go to Corinne's house for answers. And by the time the sun rises the next morning, one of these men will have killed Corinne Christensen. It's December 1987, 13 months since the night Richard woke James up with his tape player. No one can say for sure what happened at Corrine's house that night, but two things are certain. Corrine is dead, and Richard is currently on trial for her murder. The trial has been going on for almost two months. And today, James is taking the stand in a packed Santa Cruz courtroom. James shares his version of that night at Corinne's house and starts by saying that Richard held a gun to his head and threatened to kill all three of them. Richard then fashioned a makeshift silencer out of a soap bottle. James claims that he tried to escape, but he passed out from the pain of his previous injuries. All he knows is that when he came to, he saw Richard pointing a gun at Corinne. James closed his eyes again, and that's when he heard the gunshot. When he opened his eyes, he saw Corinne slumped on the floor. There's evidence to back up James version of events. Police found the soap bottle silencer and Richard's bloody shirt. And most damning of all, they found a note Curran seemingly wrote that said, don't kill us all. But there are contradictions between what James told police the day after the murder at a preliminary hearing and on the stand. Also, at one point during the testimony, he claimed he could turn street lights on and off with his mind. That's not great for establishing credibility. By the time Richard shares his version of events a few weeks later, the jury decides to hear him out. Richard, now 38 years old, sits eerily still in the witness box. If you were watching closely, you might notice that his voice and demeanor are strikingly similar to those of his friend James Marino, Almost as if he's using mirroring one of his NLP manipulation techniques.
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A
I mean, I feel like that's really crazy. If he's trying to use NLP on the jury, that won't work. You're not a Jedi. You can't make people think something. You know what I mean? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
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B
Well, he's certainly trying it. And according to Richard, it was actually James who shot Corinne. Sure, Richard's shirt was bloody, but that's because he ran to Corinne's side to help her, and she spat blood on him. The story doesn't entirely check out either. If he'd really cradled her in his arms as she died, his shirt would have been a lot bloodier. A few weeks later, the jury comes to a decision. They can't find Richard guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. He's acquitted. As for James, he gets to walk away, too. Since he was never put on trial, Richard may have gotten off for Corinne's murder. But now that he's alienated the last friend and father figure he had, he's stuck in a solitary confinement of his own creation. Outside of Richard, though, the NLP community continues to grow. A supporter even sends him 11 dozen roses the morning after his trial. And the ideology Richard created is about to take on a life of its own.
- [33:56]
A
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- [34:35]
B
Progress Banking Services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank N A or Stride Bank N A MyPay line of credit provided by the Bancorp Bank N A or Stride Bank N A MyPay eligibility requirements apply. Not available in all states. MyPay credit limits range $20 to $500, a two dollar fee to get funds instantly. SpotMe eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Fees apply at out of network ATMs and for OTC withdrawals. I feel like a it's 1991, three years since Richard's trial ended and far from the mountains of Santa Cruz. The NLP methods Richard left in his wake have evolved into some truly insidious movements. In Rochester, New York, a woman named Toni Natali is working at Consumers Byline. It's a company that offers discounts on things like appliances and groceries if you recruit other members into the club. Some people might just call that a pyramid scheme. Toni is young and beautiful, with preppy clothes and black hair often pushed back in a headband. She's happily married and has just adopted a baby boy. And she really likes her boss, a man in his 30s named Keith Raniere Saatchi.
- [35:50]
A
Like many people, I am very familiar with Keith from the stories around nxivm, including the documentary the Vow and the second Keith Raniere Enters Any Story, a bad thing is going to happen.
- [36:04]
B
Well, at this point, Keith is unassuming, with little round glasses, a shaggy haircut and a real nerdy vibe, but he has a certain magnetism. He often brags about his many talents, like being an expert pianist and a judo champion, and his apparently off the charts intelligence. He claims to have a Higher IQ than almost anyone else alive. And Keith dreams of becoming one of the most influential men in the world. Apart from Keith's many talents, he's also big into nlp and he uses it one afternoon on Tony. He tells her he can help her quit smoking in a matter of hours. To do this, he asks her questions like what makes her uncomfortable or nervous while putting pressure on her knuckles. He then tells her to apply the same pressure whenever she feels like smoking. This is an NLP tactic called anchoring. And in Toni's case, it works. At this point, Toni is all in on Keith, professionally and romantically. She even leaves her husband for him. Around this time, consumers byline collapses. Turns out pyramid schemes aren't built to last. So Keith and Toni decide to open a new business together. A health food store near Albany, New York. But at this point, Keith is eager to pick the brain of another person in town. Nancy Salzman. She became a certified NLP practitioner in the 80s when courses were springing up around the country. At first, she began using Richard's methods to help patients with chronic pain. And she claimed that she was able to cure people in only six to 10 sessions. By the early 90s, Nancy's therapy practice has actually become quite successful. She spent the better half of a decade becoming an expert in NLP and hypnotherapy teaching workshops at major companies like Con Edison and American Express. She even claims to be the number two NLP expert in the world, presumably after Richard. Keith is fascinated by her. He's trying to rebrand as a self help expert in in his own right. So he invites her to run an NLP inspired workshop at his health food company and she accepts. Keith and Nancy meet at a cafe behind a health food store and get into a deep conversation about their ideas. After a handful of these visits, Nancy agrees to build a self help empire with him. In exchange, Keith offers something he thinks is pretty his mentorship. Who wouldn't want to be mentored by a man with curtain bangs and a God complex?
- [38:33]
A
You know, I feel like I've read so much about Nancy and Keith and how they came together, but I really didn't know that NLP was such a huge part of it. It's obvious everything they did was rooted in bullshit, but I didn't realize how much bullshit.
- [38:49]
B
Yeah, well, now that Nancy and Keith have teamed up, they need to test their methods. And they have the perfect test subject. Tony, Keith's girlfriend and business partner. They start experimenting on her using NLP's version of hypnosis. To get her to talk about her abusive childhood. These sessions are grueling for Tony, but Nancy assures her that they'll help her finally get past her deep rooted trauma. The experiments go on for over a year. Through their sessions with Tony, Nancy and Keith develop their own curriculum called Executive Success programs, or esp. And they run their seminars and group therapy classes under a company named nxivm. Nancy and Keith hold their first intensive training courses in 1998. Over the next two decades, NXIVM evolves into a sex cult that makes headlines in the late 2010s. It turns out the group's leaders manipulated and abused their members under the guise of self help. Cult experts who've studied NXIVM's therapy say that they were a combination of hypnosis and nlp, with some added Scientology and cognitive behavioral therapy. But Keith Raniere and Nancy Saltzman are far from the only people who used NLP as a tool for manipulation. Because around this same time, a loose movement of bitter men latch onto Richard's ideas and rework them into a program with a very specific goal in to attract women through blatant manipulation. It's the early 2000s and journalist Neil Strauss is sitting at a California pizza kitchen with Ross Jeffries. Ross is a self described pickup artist in his 40s. He has short, graying hair, wire rimmed glasses, and an air of hubris. Neil's here with Ross to do some research. He's writing a book about a bubbling subculture of pickup artists. These are men who use sexist and manipulative techniques to get women into bed. Ross target today is their unwitting waitress. And what Neil witnesses this afternoon will eventually become the basis of his bestselling 2005 book, the Game. The waitress is in her 20s, short, with Sandy brown hair and blue nail polish. And when she comes over to take their order, Ross opens by bragging that he can use mind control to make her fall in love with him. Ross speaks slowly and quietly, and he asks her to describe what she feels when she's attracted to someone. She talks about that butterfly feeling in your stomach. And he repeats her words back to her while raising his palm from his stomach up to his heart. This is an NLP tactic called anchoring. It's the same method Keith used to help Toni quit smoking. The idea is that anytime Ross does that hand motion, the waitress will think of that butterfly feeling and associate it with Ross himself. And according to Neil, it works. Every time Ross does it, the waitress gets flushed and her eyes glaze over.
- [41:38]
A
We're both women who grew up. Our formative years were around this time and I do remember the game and I remember men reading it and teenage boys reading it. And yeah, no surprise, this has something to do with nlp, obviously.
- [41:56]
B
And as you might have guessed, Ross doesn't get the waitress number, but he does have some self reported luck with women, enough that he becomes an unlikely idol for desperate single men. And as you mentioned, Ross is a disciple of Richard Bandler and nlp. Ross read Richard's book Frogs into Princes in his twenties, and he credits the book with converting him from an angry loner into a Casanova. NXIVM and the pickup artist movement are just two of the worst applications of nlp. Some people say it's a guidebook to exploitation, while others credit NLP for helping them change their lives for the better. Back When Richard created NLP in 1975, his intentions may not have been completely altruistic, but in those early days in Santa Cruz, he really did hope that his techniques could help people solve their own problems. Unfortunately, over time, Richard has become a godfather to people looking to use NLP for their own personal gain, however ugly or dangerous. And only time will tell how NLP will be exploited next. Richard's books are still popular today, and at the age of 74, he still hosts seminars around the world. With the same unhinged zeal. One journalist reportedly attended a seminar where Richard had the crowd chant Shut the fuck up to a hypothetical person complaining about their childhood trauma. At that same seminar, he also told a story about holding an Indian guru over the edge of a cliff until he would share his secrets. Though he's probably no longer using cocaine, it is nice to see that some things never change. Despite his falling out with Richard, NLP co founder John Grinder is still teaching courses and publishing books on the topic. At 84 years old, he now runs the NLP Academy in London with new business partners. Corinne Christensen was 31 years old when she was killed, and even after the verdict, her parents were certain of Richard's guilt. Her father said in an interview that he hadn't been able to visit her grave since her burial because he was hoping to, quote, take Richard's scalp.
- [43:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, that is completely understandable, and I truly could not imagine this father's pain.
- [44:05]
B
As for the dangerous descendants of NLP, in 2018, the FBI came for NXIVM, the sex cult founded by Nancy Saltzman and Keith Ranieri. Nancy was convicted of racketeering and her manipulative use of NLP was even mentioned in a victim statement at her trial. Keith was convicted of sex trafficking and forced labor and sentenced to 120 years in prison. NLP has since been discredited in peer reviewed publications and it is widely considered pseudoscience. The terms NLP and neuro linguistic programming are now in the public domain, which has led to an uptick in certifications. With no standard for training. Whether it's self help or a scam, Richard Bandler created a system of manipulation that was primed to fall into the wrong hands. And unlike all the people he's hurt over the years, Richard can never leave that legacy behind. Sarah, would you say this episode made you feel sleepy, very sleepy, and made you want to maybe give me your wallet and all of your money?
- [45:05]
A
No, but it did provide a lot of context for how anyone can create anything and be like, it works.
- [45:13]
B
But isn't it crazy that this guy made this like bullshit pseudoscience thing up and he's based it on shitting on talk therapy, which is really helpful to a lot of people.
- [45:25]
A
Yeah, I mean, I don't think talk therapy is necessarily for everyone, but it's. You can't really deny that it's effective or it doesn't work for people. But what I think is so different about NLP is that it kind of takes the work that you need to do for something like talk therapy or, you know, behavioral therapy or whatever type of therapy that's like excavating your mind and emotions. And it's kind of like there's this easy fix. Basically we do this and this and this and you're good.
- [45:53]
B
I feel like this is another scam where if you caught me on a bad day when I was looking for an answer and you were like, I'm going to help you quit smoking, and I would be like, okay, great. And then they would do that for me somehow. And then it would be like, oh, now I'm gonna follow you forever. Like it's such a reasonable thing to wanna follow.
- [46:13]
A
Yeah, of course. Even with nxivm, they claimed to heal people from something like Tourette's. And the people who had Tourette's were very adamant that these NXIVM practices help them. Like, is it true? Probably not. But I do think there's a level of people unlocking their brain by embracing something perhaps. I don't think these things necessarily 100% don't work, but it's this whole predatory mindset that makes it work. You have to buy in, you have to dedicate yourself to this person who's your guru, who's guiding you through all this stuff. And I feel like that's kind of where it goes crazy. I think some of it could be rooted in something real. But, you know, these people take it to a scam level, which is dangerous.
- [46:58]
B
Should we go do some cocaine? No, no.
- [47:04]
A
The cocaine parts really did remind me of Goodfellas or something. And I feel like you rarely ever hear that aspect of it in these kinds of stories. Like someone with a coke problem. Yeah, they get very paranoid and scary.
- [47:16]
B
Yeah. People are always making coke seem so cool. And I'm glad we're finally adding some representation for how not cool it is to be on coke. It's the lamest drug. If there is any drug that you need to take that should not be on your list, it's the worst one.
- [47:30]
A
You know, I think the true lesson here is that there' there's no quick trick to get rid of pain. And it's very tempting. You know, I see it on TikTok all the time, these little things. Everyone's saying, do this thing and it'll help you get rid of like, no, it doesn't work. Life is full of pain and misery and you kind of just have to deal with it.
- [47:49]
B
Well, I mean, speaking of pain and misery, these are the tenants that all these pickup artists have been using for a very long time. I feel like we're never going to be free.
- [48:00]
A
You know what the game, don't freaking go there. Don't go there, guys. There's no trick to get women. The bar is so low. You could just be nice. You know, most of the time it's like you have bad vibes and you have to deal with that and that science cannot help you with that.
- [48:13]
B
Yes, there is no cure for rotten vibes.
- [48:16]
A
That's the lesson.
- [48:23]
B
If you like scamfluencers, you can listen to every episode early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus and the Wondery app or on Apple Podcast Prime. Members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey@wondry.com survey. This is Richard Bandler, the self help scammer. I'm Saatchi Cole.
- [48:47]
A
And I'm Sarah Hagee. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us@scamfluencerswandery.com we use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the Bandler Method by Frank Clancy and Heidi Yorkshire in Mother Jones. Don't Worry. Get Therapy by Jon Ronson in the Guardian and Messing with youh Head by Kate Burt in the Independent the Making of Vanguard by Josh Block, Kathleen Goldhar, Anita Elash and Dave Peiser on CBC CA and revisiting the book that inspired pickup artists, cult Leaders and was linked to a murder by Tracy Clark.
- [49:22]
B
Clark Florey and Jezebel Jessica Ford wrote this episode. Additional writing by us Saatchi Cole and Sarah Hagie, Olivia Briley and Eric Thurm are our story editors. Fact checking by Meredith Clark sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Adrian Tapia. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freeze on Sync. Our managing producers are Matt Gantt and Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. Janine Cornelo and Stephanie Jens are a divorce development producers. Our associate producers are Charlotte Miller and Lexi Peery. Our producers are John Reed, Yasmin Ward and Kate Young. Our senior producers are Sarah Enny and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman, Marsha Louie and Erin O. Flaherty for Wondry.
- [50:11]
D
In a quiet suburb, a community is shattered by the death of a beloved wife and mother. But this tragic loss of life quickly turns into something even darker. Her husband had tried to hire a hitman on the dark web to kill her, and she wasn't the only target. Because buried in the depths of the Internet is the Kill List, a cache of chilling documents containing names, photos, addresses and specific instructions for people's murders. This podcast is the true story of how it ended up in a race against time to warn those who lives were in danger. And it turns out convincing a total stranger someone wants them dead is not easy. Follow Kill List on the Wandri app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Kill List and more. Exhibit C True Crumb shows like Morbid early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus check out Exhibit C in the Wandery app for all your true crime listening.