Wayne LaPierre: America’s Hired (and Fired) Gun | 179

Summary

Scamfluencers – Wayne LaPierre: America’s Hired (and Fired) Gun | Episode 179

Podcast by Wondery, Hosted by Sachi Cole and Sarah Hagi
Release Date: September 22, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Scamfluencers unpacks the meteoric rise and downfall of Wayne LaPierre, the longtime CEO of the National Rifle Association (NRA). Hosts Sachi Cole and Sarah Hagi trace LaPierre’s transformation from a bland, politically ambitious outsider to the face of America’s most powerful gun lobbying group—only to ultimately be exposed for widespread corruption and self-dealing. Through biting commentary and dark humor, they explore how the culture of the NRA shifted under LaPierre's stewardship, the scammy symbiosis with PR firm Ackerman McQueen, and how greed and incompetence finally brought the house down.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Wayne’s Fortress Mentality (01:02–02:33)

• In 2018, Wayne and his wife Susan consider buying a $6 million mansion, justifying it as a “business expense” due to safety concerns following the Parkland shooting.
• Cole highlights LaPierre's long-standing pattern of lavish personal spending on the NRA’s dime: “He’s been making huge luxury purchases on the company dime for decades, pulling millions of dollars from the organization's budget to buy expensive suits, pay for private flights, and even cover summer vacations on enormous yachts.” (02:39)

2. The NRA’s Radical Turn: History and Transformation (06:02–11:19)

• The hosts trace the NRA’s evolution from a gun safety and sportsmanship focus in the early 20th century to a hardline Second Amendment advocacy starting in the late 1970s.
• Memorable moment: Neil Knox leads a coup at the 1977 annual board meeting (“the Revolt at Cincinnati”), taking the NRA sharply right.

3. Wayne LaPierre: The Reluctant Gun Guy (11:19–14:49)

• Wayne joins the NRA in 1978, despite no real interest in guns—his background is entirely in politics.
• Quote (Sarah Hagi, 11:19): “It never ceases to amaze me how, like, lobbyists and people in politics work where, like, there comes a point where I don't think they actually believe in anything.”
• Memorable office joke reveals Wayne’s ineptitude with firearms: “The safest place you can be when Wayne has a gun is between Wayne and the target.” (14:40)

4. Ackerman McQueen and Image Overhaul (17:25–22:03)

• Angus McQueen, ruthless ad exec, shapes Wayne into a media figure and manufactures NRA culture of paranoia (“Defend your right to defend yourself.”).
• The dubious “out of pocket project” allows execs to mask personal expenses as vague business costs—expenses funneled into lump sums with no itemization.
• Cole: “Angus plan works. Wayne's public profile starts to rise… help[s] establish him as a national political figure.” (21:22)

5. Power Struggles, Scams, and Charlton Heston (25:19–28:45)

• Knives are out as Neil Knox grows frustrated with Wayne's leadership and financial recklessness—$85 million lost in assets; finances near bankruptcy.
• Internal power play leads to Charlton Heston replacing Knox on the board, solidifying Wayne’s power alongside a celebrity figurehead.

6. Susan LaPierre: The Ambitious “First Lady" (29:30–33:20)

• Susan, portrayed as flashy and domineering, leverages Wayne’s weaknesses for personal gain, using NRA funds for private luxury.
• The couple treat NRA’s budget as a private piggy bank, with Susan wielding enormous (albeit unofficial) influence.

7. Cultural Shifts and Political Strategy (33:20–37:09)

• Post–Sandy Hook, the NRA hardens its stance. Wayne delivers the infamous “good guy with a gun” defense:
  • Quote (Wayne, via Sarah Hagi, 33:20): “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”
• Internal divisions: rank-and-file members push the organization to extremes, eschewing even modest gun-control measures.

8. Lavish Excess and PR Scams (37:09–39:31)

• Wayne and Susan exploit NRA funds for globetrotting “hunting” shoots (e.g., “Under Wild Skies”), primarily serving to cultivate Wayne’s false macho image.
• The NRA spends over $18 million on this “content” in a decade, benefiting mostly Wayne, Susan, and their close circle.

9. 2016 Election and House of Cards (39:31–40:12)

• The NRA goes all-in for Trump, spending over $30 million on his campaign; organization justifies even Trump’s scandals by peddling fear.
• Susan is rewarded with a Parks Foundation board seat; NRA’s financial mismanagement continues behind the scenes.

10. Unraveling: Letitia James’s Crusade (42:31–45:03)

• New York AG Letitia James opens investigations, finding the NRA broke and hemorrhaging cash even as Wayne’s salary increases.
• Internal dissension peaks when Oliver North (then NRA president) demands a forensic audit, uncovering more financial abuse, primarily linked to Ackerman McQueen.

11. Legal Showdown and Final Fallout (47:02–50:59)

• Letitia James sues to dissolve the NRA; Wayne’s strategy is to claim bankruptcy, a move both desperate and unsuccessful.
• Courtroom debacle: Wayne is evasive, admits incriminating details, and paints his life of luxury as a necessary “costume” for his role.
  • Quote (Wayne, 48:36): “I was basically under presidential threat without presidential security... This was the one place that I hope could feel safe.”
• In February 2024, Wayne is found liable and ordered to pay over $4.3 million, banned from NRA board service for 10 years.

12. LaPierre’s Legacy and The Culture of Scams (51:59–54:33)

• Hosts reflect on LaPierre’s lack of conviction or ideology, seeing him as an “empty vessel”—a “personality hire scammer.”
• Sarah Hagi: “He’s one of our most pathetic scammers because it's like he stumbled into a scam and he worked as though he had no agency. Almost.” (53:02)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wayne’s public persona v. reality:
  “Wayne barely knew how to use a cell phone, let alone an AR15. He wasn’t even a Second Amendment die hard. The only thing Wayne believed in was Wayne.” – Sachi Cole (06:02)
• On power and opportunism:
  "It never ceases to amaze me how, like, lobbyists and people in politics work where, like, there comes a point where I don't think they actually believe in anything." – Sarah Hagi (11:19)
• “Good guy with a gun” moment:
  “The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.” – Wayne LaPierre, via Sarah Hagi (33:20)
• On LaPierre’s character:
  “Wayne has, quote, the backbone of a chocolate eclair.” – Anonymous coworker, recounted by Sachi Cole (30:01)
• The scammer’s playbook:
  "Wayne Lapierre might be our first personality hire scammer, except the personality is he doesn't have one and that's why he was hired." – Sachi Cole (54:24)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:02 – Wayne and Susan’s $6M house hunt, NRA as expense account
• 06:02 – NRA’s history and shift to right-wing advocacy
• 11:19 – Wayne joins NRA; motivated by politics, not guns
• 14:40 – “The safest place you can be when Wayne has a gun…”
• 17:25 – Meet Angus McQueen, ad mastermind
• 22:03 – Angus grooms Wayne into NRA’s public face
• 25:19 – Financial audit reveals massive losses
• 28:26 – Boardroom coup: Heston replaces Knox
• 30:01 – Susan LaPierre’s aggressive ascent
• 33:20 – Sandy Hook and Wayne’s infamous statement
• 39:31 – NRA backs Trump, launches fear campaign
• 42:31 – Letitia James pursues the NRA
• 47:02 – Courtroom fiasco: LaPierre’s collapse on the stand
• 50:35 – LaPierre’s defense: “I needed to build the street cred.”
• 52:47 – Hosts’ reflection on disappointing reasons for NRA’s end

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Tone and Style

• The tone is irreverent, sharply satirical, and critical throughout, with the hosts gleefully skewering Wayne LaPierre’s blandness, the NRA’s hypocrisy, and the parade of grifters and enablers.
• Both hosts engage in rapid-fire banter, constantly mocking their subjects and each other (“He’s the definition of an empty vessel…”).

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Conclusion

This episode is an insightful, darkly comedic deep dive into how empty ambition, cynicism, and greed could corrupt powerful institutions from the inside out. LaPierre is painted as a scammer by opportunity, not belief—marked by blandness, cowardice, and a knack for manipulating organizations for personal gain. The episode closes by emphasizing that the NRA’s downfall came not from accountability over gun policy, but from its own unbridled corruption—leaving listeners with a damning case study in how money, image, and the “right face” can mask rotting foundations.

Transcript

[Sachi Cole]

Hey, Scamflancers listeners, if you're as hooked on these jaw dropping schemes as we are, you'll love Wondry. Think of it as your all access. Past the world of scams, ad free episodes, early access and exclusive deep dives that uncover even more shocking details. Don't just listen. Immerse yourself in the chaos with Wondry plus. Sarah.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yes? I'm scared.

[Sachi Cole]

You know a lot about me, but do you know that I love guns? I love shooting guns.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know, I didn't know that about you, but I really want to try shooting a gun.

[Sachi Cole]

Yes.

[Sarah Haggie]

And no one will take me to a shooting range.

[Sachi Cole]

Oh, I will take you. I will take you.

[Sarah Haggie]

Politics aside, I. They're cool.

[Sachi Cole]

Yes. Listen, to be clear, I don't think anyone should own a gun. They are awful death machines, but they, they are so cool.

[Sarah Haggie]

I know there's a reason why they're in video games.

[Sachi Cole]

Well, as a gun expert, I'm here today to take you into the heart of gun culture and how one lobbyist built one of the biggest, most powerful advocacy groups in the world and then almost brought it down because he was so needy and so greedy. It's early 2018 and Wayne and Susan Lapierre are house hunting in the Dallas suburbs. Wayne and Susan are a rich white married couple in the their late 60s. So unsurprisingly, they're looking at a 10,000 square foot mansion and a gated community. It's a huge property with four bedrooms, nine bathrooms, high ceilings and plenty of natural light. There's a fireplace in the kitchen and an elevator. It backs onto a man made lake that's in the middle of a golf course and the homeowners association provides security. That last perk is important for the couple because lately Wayne has been feeling unsafe. Wayne is the CEO of the National Rifle association, the country's most influential, influential gun rights lobby and one of the most influential organizations in American politics. For decades, over the 27 years Wayne has held this position, gun violence has surged. Just A month ago, 17 people were killed in the shooting at Parkland High School in Florida. And as the public face of the biggest organization promoting gun ownership, Wayne has been getting a lot of flack. He's been confronted by protesters and even swatted. It's been a really scary time for him. I mean, what if someone came to his house with a gun?

[Sarah Haggie]

Oh my God, I love a clear villain. He's rotten. Hate his guts.

[Sachi Cole]

Well, this house would be the perfect fortress for Wayne to hide from his enemies. But it costs about $6 million. And while Wayne is doing pretty well for himself, he doesn't have that kind of money. At least not in his personal bank account. So Wayne does something he's done countless times before. He decides that this mega mansion counts as a business expense. He's been making huge luxury purchases on the company dime for decades, pulling millions of dollars from the organization's budget to buy expensive suits, pay for private flights, and even cover summer vacations on enormous yachts. For Wayne, this house would be the perfect place to monitor the political world he helped build and defend himself against all these lunatics who want to do insane things like ban assault rifles. But Wayne will never actually move in. In fact, this era of his life is about to end. A series of investigations, lawsuits, and eventually a major court case are going to expose his fraud and reveal to the world that his entire public Persona is bullshit. Wayne is an opportunist. But worse, he's a coward. And when the world finally sees who he really is, Wayne won't have anything left in the chamber. So I was at the doctor's not too long ago, and I noticed my doctor was wearing these really cute scrubs, which maybe sounds like a funny thing to say, but they were really nice. They fit well, they were super polished and put together, and I didn't ask if I could touch the material because I am not a weirdo, but I could see that the fabric was super high quality and they were really well made. When I asked my doctor about them, because of course I did, she told me they were figs.

[Sarah Haggie]

Figs, as it turns out, makes the best scrubwear in the game. Lightweight and breathable, comfortable and stylish, designed to keep up with super long shifts in all different settings, whether you work in the ER or an esthetician's office. They're the opposite of those boxy, scratchy scrubs people in healthcare have had to wear for so long. But also, because you're listening to this podcast, it feels like this needs to be said. Just because someone is wearing figs doesn't necessarily mean they're a legit healthcare professional. It might just mean they're a scammer with really good taste.

[Sachi Cole]

Jokes aside, right now, if you go to wherefigs.com and enter figsrx at checkout, you can get 15% off your first purchase. That's wherefigs.com and enter FigsRx at checkout. The WNBA playoffs are in full swing, and Tommy Alter's the Young man in the three brings you closer to the game. Get complete WNBA playoff coverage as Tommy sits down with the game's biggest stars and delivers unmatched analysis. The Young man in the 3's WNBA playoff coverage is presented by Quest Nutrition. From irresistibly crunchy protein chips to rich, chocolatey protein bars, these treats make giving in feel so good. Quest Big on protein, low on sugar, huge on flavor. Shop Quest on [e-mail] questnutrition and enjoy all the WNBA action on the young men and the three. Wherever you get your podcasts from Wondery, I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Hagie and this is Scamflancers.

[Sarah Haggie]

Come and give me your attention. I won't ever learn my lesson Turn my speakers to 11.

[Sachi Cole]

I feel like a legend Wayne Lapierre was the face of the National Rifle association for decades and one of the most influential figures in American politics. As CEO, he transformed the NRA into one of the most feared lobbying forces in the world. But his image as a macho, gun toting cowboy was a sham. Wayne barely knew how to use a cell phone, let alone an AR15. He wasn't even a Second Amendment die hard. The only thing Wayne believed in was Wayne. He used the NRA's reputation to maintain proximity to power and raise millions from its devoted members. Then he pilfered that war chest to live in the lap of luxury. This is a story where everybody loses, especially America. I'm calling it Wayne lapierre, America's Hired and Fired Gun Legend before we talk about Wayne's role in bringing gun rights activism into the mainstream, we need to get into the history of the NRA. The National Rifle association is founded in 1871. At first, it's mostly an organization for hunters and marksmen. They advocate for things like additional gun safety laws and firearm regulations. In the 60s, they actually support California Governor Ronald Reagan when he signs a law banning the open carry of firearms. Of course, the law was passed in response to a Black Panther protest where participants marched through the state Capitol with loaded guns.

[Sarah Haggie]

Huh. Funny how that works.

[Sachi Cole]

Interesting coincidence.

[Sarah Haggie]

Interesting, interesting.

[Sachi Cole]

Throughout the 60s, high profile assassinations of figures like John F. Kennedy, Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr. And Malcolm X lead to increased calls for gun control. This culminates in a 1968 bill that restricts firearm sales in a bunch of ways, including adding serial numbers to guns and requiring a minimum age for gun buyers. These measures are popular. By the 70s, the NRA starts to consider dropping the word rifle from its name altogether, and they make plans to move their headquarters from Washington, D.C. to Colorado Springs. So they can focus less on politics and more on sportsmanship and outdoor activities. But a more radical group of NRA members wants to double down on the Second Amendment. They want the organization to fight to ensure everyone in the country can own guns and take them virtually anywhere. And they have a plan to get their way. In May 1977, the NRA hosts its annual board meeting in Cincinnati. On the first day, a stream of activists in bright orange hunting caps march into the meeting holding walkie talkies and carrying guns. One of the architects of this protest is Neil Knox. Neil is in his early 40s. He's a jowly guy with a wide forehead and big aviator glasses. He's a journalist who writes for hunting magazines, loves guns and hates the government. And these orange hat NRA members agree with him. They're the type of people you might associate with the NRA now hardcore second Amendment fanatics who think the government is about to take away their sacred right to bear arms. Right now, Neil and the orange caps are still on the fringes of the organization. But Neil is ready to change that. He thinks if enough hardline members show up, they can overwhelm the NRA establishment. Then they can vote out the more moderate board members and replace them with people who want to move the organization further to the right. Neil's plan works. He swarms the board meeting with his crew and they refuse to leave even when the organizers turn off the air conditioning and transform the conference room into a sweltering mess. After an all night voting session, Neil and his allies replace most of the existing NRA board members with their own faction of right wing pro gun activists. This event becomes known as the Revolt at Cincinnati. And it clears the path for Neal to be appointed chief lobbyist of the new nra. He's about to change the trajectory of the organization and American politics forever. But he needs someone to help him push his new agenda. And he's about to find the perfect partner in the place he'd least across the aisle. It's 1978, about a year after the revolt in Cincinnati. 29 year old Wayne LaPierre is wandering around the imposing NRA headquarters in Washington D.C. he's here to interview for a job, but honestly, it seems like kind of a weird fit. Wayne is a rumpled, unassuming guy who really looks like a gopher. He's absent minded and eccentric. He volunteered for a Progressive Democrat, George McGovern and has no interest in guns. Wayne grew up in the small city of Roanoke, Virginia, about a four hour drive from dc. It's the type of place where you might expect to find some gun enthusiasts. But no one in Wayne's household cared much about guns or hunting. What Wayne does care about is politics. He got into it early. When he was in high school, he would go out canvassing for his parents friends who were running for city council. Then he got a master's degree in political science from Boston College, and he started working as a legislative aide for a Democrat in the Virginia statehouse. Wayne's boss was really into hunting, fishing, and guns. And he's the one who heard the NRA was looking for a lobbyist to help them make inroads with Democrats and recommended Wayne for the gig.

[Sarah Haggie]

It never ceases to amaze me how, like, lobbyists and people in politics work where, like, there comes a point where I don't think they actually believe in anything. It's just about, like, what will be beneficial for who hired me or, like, what evil thing I want to do. It's crazy.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah. Well, we don't know exactly what draws Wayne to the nra, but we do know that before interviewing for the NRA job, Wayne turned down an offer to work as a legislative aide for Democratic House Speaker Tip o'. Neill. This would have been more in line with Wayne's previous work, but being a legislative aide is kind of a grind, and it means you actually have to focus on policy. Lobbying, on the other hand, puts you in the room where all the big decisions are made. It could give Wayne access, power, and maybe even wealth. In the end, Wayne takes the NRA job. He'll be working under Neil, the architect of the Cincinnati revolt, helping him enact his vision for a more militant right wing nra. In other words, Wayne is fully ready to sell out. But though Wayne is ready to dive headfirst into the far right, he isn't a perfect fit for all that he doesn't know about guns. Wayne does know politics. And Neal is impressed. Over the next two years, Neal promotes Wayne up through the ranks at the nra, eventually naming him head of the group's federal lobbying army. This rapid rise is pretty surprising because, as Neil quickly realized, Wayne is not a typical lobbyist. He's nerdy, clumsy, and socially inept. According to the downfall of the NRA by Tim Mack, Wayne has a weak handshake, doesn't drink, and he's so awkward that colleagues say the only way to make eye contact with him is to lie on the floor. His clothes are basic and ugly. And Mac adds that on Capitol Hill, people literally call Wayne shoes because he Always wears the same pair of scuffed black wingtips. Wayne hates technology and refuses to use the computer. He writes all of his notes by hand on yellow legal pads, using an unreadable shorthand. Then he puts all of the legal pads in a suitcase. He frequently forgets to close the suitcase, so he's always dropping his notes all over the floor.

[Sarah Haggie]

Oh, my God. Why is this not adapted to a sitcom? Wayne is perfect. He's kind of Mr. Magoo.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah.

[Sarah Haggie]

Disheveled.

[Sachi Cole]

Isn't that right, though?

[Sarah Haggie]

Well, he's the brains. And, you know, Neil's the braun.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, well, maybe. Neil figures that his star employee needs encouragement to just come out of his shell, because one day he offers to take the NRA's golden boy on a skeet shooting field trip. Neil hops in his 1978 Cadillac Seville and heads off to the range in rural Maryland. But when he meets up with Wayne, Neil is shocked to see that his star employee is carrying a crappy old shotgun that's so rusted it's bas physically unusable. Neil promptly pops open the hood of his Cadillac and cleans up Wayne's busted ass gun with oil. Neil probably had an inkling that Wayne wasn't a gun guy, but now he knows just how clueless he really is. And Neil isn't the only person at the NRA to notice. People start telling a joke about Wayne's aim at the office. The safest place you can be when Wayne has a gun is between Wayne and the target.

[Sarah Haggie]

This guy is so incredible. Like, he's just kind of a muse for insults. You know what I mean?

[Sachi Cole]

People are coming up with their best work.

[Sarah Haggie]

This is incredible work.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah.

[Sarah Haggie]

I mean, they really got his ass.

[Sachi Cole]

They really did. Neil might find Wayne's lack of gun knowledge and interpersonal skill off putting, but there's no denying he's a great lobbyist. He's a political strategy savant. And in an organization filled with big personalities, Wayne's blandness might actually be his secret weapon. In 1991, the NRA's chief executive leaves after being accused of harassing a female staffer. He was the third guy to have the job in the last six years, including someone who fired an entire division without consulting the board. The NRA needs someone steady and boring to keep things calm for a while. So of course, they give the job to Wayne. Neal has found a perfect, unassuming, politically savvy avatar to lead the nra. Now he just needs to make sure Wayne can play the part. And that means someone needs to put some lipstick on this Wayne sized pig. Putting Wayne in charge of the NRA is a bit of a gamble. But to Angus McQueen, it's also a golden opportunity. Angus is the head of an advertising firm called Ackerman McQueen, which everyone calls Ackmac. His father founded Ackmac in the early 70s. Angus started his career in news media and then worked for the Nixon administration. But then he came to Acmac and started running the family business right away. He identified the NRA as a very important client. He grew the firm's relationship with the gun lobbying group into its most lucrative account. Wayne seems like the world's least likely poster boy for second amendment warriors, which suits Angus just fine. He sees something he knows a lot. A marketing opportunity. Angus is in his mid-40s, with a soft round face, close cropped hair, and frameless glasses. He looks like he could be a kindly elementary school principal, except for his hard eyes and his intense and terrifying personality. His colleagues say he's ruthless with, quote, a violent, uncontrollable temper. Years later, some of them will tell a reporter about an incident where an IT expert tried to set Angus up with a new laptop. When Angus couldn't figure out how to use it, he got so frustrated that he grabbed a pair of scissors, cut through every cable, took the whole mess to the office lobby and slammed it down on the marble floor. His employees were too scared to clean up the wreckage. But Angus gets away with this bad behavior because he's good at his job. In the 80s, he masterminded some very successful ad campaigns for the NRA. Sarah, do you want to take a look at some of Angus's work?

[Sarah Haggie]

These ads are very hard to miss. They're all black and white. There's a big text at the top followed by an image, and one of them says, if you're attacked on your porch, do you want your neighbors to be opposed to gun ownership or members of the nra? Another one says, what does a convenience store clerk think just before he is attacked? At the bottom of the ads it says, defend your right to defend yourself. Which I guess is exactly what they're doing. You know, it's like anything can happen. The world's crazy. Don't you want to defend yourself just in case something happens? You know, like making it seem like no matter what, they're the victim of something.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah. These ads are like the template for every right wing ad trying to scare you about, like, the rise of crime.

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah.

[Sachi Cole]

Angus is so successful that by the 90s, Acmac is in charge of all PR at the NRA, from ads to research to crisis management. They literally have their own floor in the NRA's Washington offices. ACMAC employees are living well off the account. They travel on private jets, wine and dine their clients at expensive restaurants, and smoke fancy cigars at private clubs. Of course, as their CEO, Angus leads by example. He wears bespoke suits, drives a Bentley, and wears $250 ties, which he often throws away after wearing once.

[Sarah Haggie]

I think this is gonna be one of those episodes where I'm like, oh, who's the craziest person? It's hard to pick. Yeah, throwing away a tie is so stupid. Like, why do trying to prove here that you could buy another one? We know you're rich.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah. Well, some of these purchases might seem like they ride the line between personal and business expenses. But the ACMAC guys have developed a trick to cover this up. Allow me to explain. Let's say, for example, that Angus wants to buy a brand new $250 single use tie when he's at the expensive tie store. Instead of using his own personal credit card, he pulls out his Ackmac Amex and pays for it out of the company's expense account. After all, he's going to wear it at work. At the same time, other ACMAC guys are doing this with other questionable expenses. Cigars, fancy dinners, private cars, whatever. And when the ACMAC finance team sees these charges, they put them all together in an invoice for the nra. But these invoices are extremely vague. Instead of breaking down each item and its associated cost or including any receipts, they just add it all up and put the total under a vague heading like expenses. Then they invoice the NRA for one huge lump sum that covers everything. Angus never has to justify whether his tie counts as a business purchase because no one at the NRA even sees that he bought it. And the NRA always pays the bill. ACMAC executives call this the out of pocket project. It's one of the job's special perks.

[Sarah Haggie]

I'm not even sure if I consider this a scam. I'm like, rob them. I don't care. You guys are all evil.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, well, Angus really wants the NRA to continue to grow. So when Wayne becomes the head of the organization, Angus has to work his magic and rehab Wayne's public image. Luckily for Angus, Wayne is a pushover, which makes him pliable and easy to manipulate. Angus makes Wayne his main focus. They talk every day. Angus teaches Wayne how to speak in public. They even start a two hour call in radio show called the Wayne LaPierre show to help grow Wayne's confidence and his brand. Wayne calls Angus his Yoda. They get close enough that Angus fills Wayne in on the out of pocket project. And when he tells Wayne to use it to buy some nice new clothes, instead of being mad that Angus is ripping them off, Wayne decides he wants to do it too. Angus plan works. Wayne's public profile starts to rise. In 1994, Angus has another stroke of genius. Having Wayne write a book called Guns, Crime and Freedom. With an introduction by Tom Clancy. The book actually makes it onto the New York Times bestseller list and Wayne goes on a three month tour to promote it. The tour is extremely hard on poor Wayne's sensitive nerves, but it helps establish him as a national political figure.

[Sarah Haggie]

This is the plot of many movies. Hot person turning someone into a star.

[Sachi Cole]

This is Miss Congeniality.

[Sarah Haggie]

I mean, it's the plot of any teen movie where there's a bet involved. Yeah, but it's also really interesting because it's so clear that Angus believes that investing in Wayne will help him. Like that's the potential everyone sees in him, which I find so fascinating because by all accounts, he's such a dork.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, well, Angus has managed to turn that political dork into a right wing celebrity poised to lead the NRA into its new era. But his obsession with image and skimming money off the top is about to clash with another powerful figure inside the nra, Neil, who's not so easy to manipulate. And when Wayne is forced to choose between them, his decision will change the landscape of right wing politics forever.

[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah, I mean, be careful, Sachi. People are going to start, they're going to start treating you differently.

[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Cole]

It'S 1996 and Neil is at the NRA's offices staring at a stack of paper. Five years ago, Neil and the rest of the NRA board voted to make Wayne the organization's chief executive. And while Wayne has become a national figurehead, Neil is growing impatient with his lack of aggression. Just last year he told the LA Times that Wayne was, quote, too nice. But now Neal's starting to think Wayne's bland exterior is hiding something darker. The NRA's finances have been shaky ever since Wayne took over, and last year they got so bad that the board's finance committee did a comprehensive review. Neal's reading their report, and it's not pretty. Mac reports in misfire that the Audit shows Wayne's been throwing millions of dollars at Acme as well as at a bunch of other vendors to help improve his public image. And to make things worse, he didn't have written contracts with most of them. This makes the details of his spending even harder to track. And the impact on the organization's bottom line is staggering. Since Wayne took over, the NRA has lost more than $85 million in assets under his direction. The organization has also quietly taken another $51 million out of the NRA's long term investments. Technically, they are on the verge of bankruptcy.

[Sarah Haggie]

There is something about Neil where forgetting how I feel about their opinions, he's kind of true to what he claims to be true to. He's maybe more of a hardcore crazy person. And they're more opportunistic.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, it's an interesting distinction. Well, Neil is furious. He spent the last 30 years rebuilding this organization from the ground up. The rest of the board is equally pissed. Wayne scrambles to respond to the audit. He fires 20% of the NRA's employees and even tells Neil he'll stop working with ACMAC. Now, Sarah, Neil doesn't know this, but Wayne is actually still pulling one over on the nra. The PR firm he hires to replace Acmac is one of acmac's subsidiaries. He's pulling the exact same scheme, but trying to hide it from the board. But even without this knowledge, Neal has had enough. He wants Wayne to step down entirely. When it becomes clear this isn't going to happen, Neil resorts to what he does, guerrilla tactics. In the months before the 1997 board meeting, Neil goes to war with Wayne and the press. They both take out ads and write open letters. Neal calls Wayne and his allies, quote, self serving, irresponsible and incompetent, while Wayne says Neal is a fringe right wing nutjob. Pretty soon, Wayne takes things even further by starting a campaign to vote Neal off the board entirely and replace him with the actor Charlton Heston. Charlton used to be a Democrat who supported strict gun control back in the 60s, but by the 90s, he was giving speeches about reverse racism and Second Amendment rights. Charlton's a famous firebrand who Wayne and his allies are betting they can use to get NRA members on their side.

[Sarah Haggie]

It's really interesting through this scam, seeing how the NRA is changing with society almost where it's being provocative in a very obvious way to really be famous. And also even just the idea of having a celebrity be the new face of it. It's so current compared to what Neil does.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, well, when the board finally convenes at the Seattle Convention center for the 1997 meeting, they face a vote for Neil or Charlton. Neil, the man who once orchestrated his own coup against the NRA's old guard, watches helplessly as the votes are tallied. In the end, he loses his spot on the board to Charlton Heston by just four votes. Now Neil's going to have to sit back and watch as his former protege starts shooting from the hip and treating their precious NRA as his personal Piggy Bank. It's 1998, one year after Wayne and Charlton Heston seize control of the NRA, and in Washington, D.C. susan marries Dorca. An ambitious blonde in her late 40s with a tight 10 smile has decided she wants to marry her boyfriend, Wayne LaPierre. Some women might start dropping hints, others might pop the question themselves, but Susan isn't some women. She just sends out the invitations to their wedding without even telling Wayne. It's aggressive, but Susan knows her boyfriend better than anyone. He's a pushover. Years later, talking to a reporter about this situation, a co worker will say that Wayne has, quote, the backbone of a chocolate eclair.

[Sarah Haggie]

Oh, my God. What is up with this guy?

[Sachi Cole]

These insults are crazy.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know what it is? Wayne is smart. Maybe technically, but he is the definition of an empty vessel.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah.

[Sarah Haggie]

And everyone knows they could just put whatever they want into that. And he will do it because he's actually really competent, which is pretty rare because usually empty vessels aren't really that smart.

[Sachi Cole]

Yes, competent, but with no thoughts of his own in his head. The perfect husband. In the lead up to the wedding, Wayne asks everyone from his co workers to his secretary if he should go through with it. And he's still wrestling with it minutes before the ceremony. His best man even offers to drive him away from the venue. But Susan and the priest convince him to go through with it. As usual, Susan gets what she wants. Susan grew up in a working class family in Wisconsin, and she's ashamed of it. Ever since college, she's been working hard to distance herself from her upbringing by wearing expensive clothes and saying cruel things about poor people. In the 80s, Susan started working as a political fundraiser in D.C. about a decade later, she did some work for one of the NRA's biggest vendors. And that guy introduced her to the organization's rising Wayne. From the outside, they might seem like a weird match, but like Angus, Susan sees Wayne as an easily moldable vehicle for her own ambition. They both like power and having access to the NRA's expense account. After the wedding, people start calling Susan the first lady of the nra. She's outspoken, loud, and wears flashy designer clothes to the office. Her perfume is so strong that everyone smells her before they see her. Susan tells people that she's just a volunteer at the nra, and technically that's true. She doesn't draw a paycheck, but she doesn't need to. Ever since Wayne learned about the Acmac out of Pocket project, she's used it to pay for whatever she wants, like her own professional security detail and a car service she uses while traveling. Susan's taste for luxury is rubbing off on Wayne. The couple regularly flies private to places like Lake Como, Budapest, and the Bahamas. Susan finally has the life that she always wanted. She's got money, power, and popularity. But being married to a pushover like Wayne isn't easy. Susan is basically his assistant. She answers his emails, makes important political decisions when he can't pick a side, and takes pictures with his cell phone when he needs them. She's tied to him and the nra, for better or for worse. And things are about to get much, much worse. In December 2012, the Sandy Hook school shooting in Connecticut shakes America to its core. Citizens and elected officials grieve the deaths of 20 first graders and six school employees. Stronger gun control laws could prevent this from happening again. But Wayne has other ideas. After hours of meeting with the brain trust at Ackerman McQueen, Wayne holds an official NRA press conference. A week after the shooting, the conference room at DC's InterContinental Hotel is packed full of reporters and news cameras, all waiting to hear how the NRA will respond to this moment. Looking stiff and defensive, Wayne gives a career defining speech.

[Sarah Haggie]

The only way, the only way to stop a monster from killing our kids is to be personally involved and invested in a plan of absolute protection. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. It's beyond sickening. I feel like Sandy Hook was such a shift in how people talked about gun violence. It's not even worth rebuking because it's so obviously a lie and so evil, but it just shows how I don't think these people care about anything at all.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, and it actually wasn't always this craven. Thirteen years earlier, after the mass shooting at Columbine High School, Wayne held a similar press conference. And back then, he said the NRA believed in, quote, absolutely gun free schools. Now it's a different story. In response to the shooting, a bipartisan group of Senators develops a bill that would require background checks for guns purchased at gun shows or on the Internet. It's a pretty modest response to America's gun violence problem, but everyone knows that any gun related bill needs NRA approval to get through Congress. Wayne has supported background checks since the late 90s. And the NRA's lobbyists even get to help write the legislation. Which means they can add pro gun provisions like banning the creation of a national gun registry. But it's still not enough. The gun rights movement's rank and file has become more extreme than its leaders. Now the most hardcore members of the NRA are opposed to anything that even looks like compromise. Rival groups like the national association for Gun Rights and Gun Owners of America start sending out mass emails telling their members to flood Wayne with calls until the NRA backs off. After that, the NRA's lobbyists straight up stop communicating about the bill. When one of the senators they were working with finally manages to get an NRA lobbyist on the phone, all they can say is that the organization now fully opposes the legislation.

[Sarah Haggie]

Just the fact that this all has to happen with the participation of the NRA is so backwards. And these leaders, they have the backbones of eclairs, really.

[Sachi Cole]

Well, a few days later, the NRA not only withdraws their support for the bill, they mobilized their base against the very law they helped write. Pretty soon Senators are fielding phone calls and emails in huge numbers from angry gun owners. The pressure works and even this limited background check mandate fails. This feels like a tipping point even after the horror of Sandy Hook. Wayne and the NRA have made it clear that they will unequivocally defend access to guns no matter who gets hurt. In the decade following the tragedy at Sandy hook, there were 189 school shootings in the US resulting in 279 casualties. Wayne has successfully used his influence to push for one of the worst causes imaginable and helped pave the way for hundreds of deaths over the years to come. And now he's free to focus on the most important thing in his his own image. Just a few months after the Sandy Hook shooting, Wayne and Susan take a much needed break from all that stressful political stuff by going on safari. Along with a production crew, they're filming a big game hunting show called Under Wild Skies. And it just so happens that the host of the show is both the head of the production company and the head of acmac's subsidiary, the Mercury Group. The whole show is of course sponsored and funded by the nra.

[Sarah Haggie]

Let me guess, this is a tactic to get them back to the oh, we use rifles in so many ways kind of vibe. And not just about killing people.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, distract and deflect. It works every time. And Wayne and Susan have been taking these safari trips for years. Wayne's shot episodes of the show all across Africa, Europe and the US It's a great situation for everyone involved, except, of course, the animals being hunted on camera and maybe the NRA's donors. Susan gets an exotic vacation. Wayne gets to bill tens of thousands of dollars in travel and lodging to the nra. And the producers of Underwild Skies make good Money too. Between 2010 and 2021, the NRA will spend $18 million on the show. Sometimes Wayne and Susan bring their friends, and the NRA pays for all of their expenses too. But most of all, the NRA gets footage of Wayne staring over the horizon and looking like he knows how to shoot a gun. You know, real macho hero stuff. In the years following Sandy Hook, Wayne and the NRA go right back to business as usual. And in the lead up to the 2016 election, the organization makes its boldest electoral play yet. Going all in on Donald Trump. The NRA spends more than $30 million backing Trump's candidacy. So when the infamous Access Hollywood tape leaks featuring Trump making vulgar comments about women, the NRA goes out on a limb to defend their candidate. The organization buys up a ton of ad time on Access Hollywood itself to run ads like this one targeted specifically at women. She'll call 91 1. Average response time 11 minutes too late. She keeps a firearm in this safe for protection, but Hillary Clinton could take away her right to self defense. Don't let Hillary leave you protected with nothing but a phone.

[Sarah Haggie]

Wow. They're saying, like you can only really defend yourself. 911 takes too long and this is all we have. And Hillary Clinton is gonna take that away. It's just such a fear mongering distraction from everything that Trump said and all the issues with the NRA and gun laws and everything. It's honing in once again on this fear that gets people so mobilized that you're the only defense you have. And Hillary Clinton wants to make you defenseless.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, you might say it worked. Shock shockingly well. We all know how the 2016 election turns out after Trump is elected. Susan even gets appointed to the board of the Parks Foundation. And for a minute, everybody's happy. But things aren't going to stay blissful for long. In fact, the Trump election might actually be the worst thing that could happen to the nra. The organization is spending way more than it's taking in and attracting tons of attention from Democrats who want nothing more than to take it down. And it turns out that after decades of scamming, Wayne, Susan and Angus are going to be shooting blanks.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know that sinking feeling when you're hit with yet another overdraft fee? I have been there between surprise charges and waiting days for my paycheck to clear. Managing money used to be a constant source of stress.

[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

Found a $20 bill in your jeans when you weren't expecting it?

[Sachi Cole]

The best feeling and honestly, that's what it felt like when I remembered that I had an old retirement account worth way more than I thought.

[Sarah Haggie]

Exactly. Most of us have random accounts floating around 401ks from old jobs, savings scattered in different banks, maybe even investments we forgot about.

[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

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[Sachi Cole]

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[Sarah Haggie]

I feel like a legend.

[Sachi Cole]

In November 2018, Letitia James gets elected Attorney General of New York. Letitia has straight, shoulder length hair, and when she smiles, her grin is warm and toothy. There are a lot of people Letitia would like to prosecute, and one of her biggest targets is the nra. Letitia thinks the NRA is willfully abetting gun violence. During the campaign, she gives an interview in Ebony magazine where she calls the NRA a terrorist organization. Soon after she takes office, she opens an investigation into the group's finances. Letitia subpoenas NRA leadership and demands records. And as she goes through the documents, she's shocked. For an organization that throws its weight around so publicly, the NRA is is broke as hell. Since Trump's election, there's been an immediate sharp decline in memberships and donations. In one way, this is pretty normal. The NRA always suffers during Republican presidencies since its members don't feel as fired up or threatened by the government. But Letitia notices that the NRA isn't just in a financial slump. They're struggling to pay their staff. They've stopped keeping coffee in their office kitchens. They've been pulling money from different sources to stay afloat, including a nearly maxed out line of credit and their charitable foundation. But amidst all of this, one number is still going. Wayne's salary. He actually took a raise this year, bringing his total take home pay to more than $2 million. Wayne also got the NRA to sign a contract guaranteeing that they'll keep paying him over the next 10 years, even if he stops working for them. As Leticia reads through the company's internal memos, she learns she isn't the only person who has beef with Wayne. Oliver north spent the 80s brokering illegal weapons deals for the US government. And that apparently qualifies him for his new job as President of the nra. The president is usually just a figurehead while the EVP runs the show. But Oliver wanted to take a more hands on approach. He came in with plans for how the group could expand its reach. But when he started trying to implement them, he quickly realized they had no money. So he started looking into the NRA spending on big ticket items, including tens of thousands of dollars paid to an outside law firm run by Angus McQueen's son in law. Eventually, he asked the board to perform an audit of Ackerman McQueen.

[Sarah Haggie]

Wow. Once again, a clearly evil guy. But who is very real about his intentions, can see right through these people.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, it takes someone evil, competent and committed to the ideology to see that Wayne is evil, competent, and just flat out grifter. And then the lawsuit started flying. The NRA sued ACMAC for refusing to comply with the audit. Then they sued again for defamation, which was followed by an ACMAC countersuit. In June of 2019, after decades of working side by side, ACMAC cuts ties with the NRA altogether. Just a month later, Angus dies of lung cancer. In his New York Times obituary, his son calls the nra, quote, repugnant and cowardly.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know, once again, in one of these stories, all it took was one person checking the books to unravel, like, decades of lies. And it's interesting to think, like, if they hadn't done this audit, would it just have gone on forever? Maybe.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, maybe. And as all of this is happening, Letitia just keeps building her case. It's clear that the NRA is already falling apart. All she needs to do is deliver the final push. This happens. On August 6, 2020, Letitia holds a press conference for a sparse audience of socially distanced journalists. Here's what she says. Just a few minutes ago, my office filed a lawsuit against the National Rifle association to dissolve the organization in its entirety for years of self dealing and illegal conduct that violate New York charity's law and undermine its own mission. Trying to fully dissolve the NRA is a huge task, even for someone this dedicated. But while Letitia might not be able to fully end the nra, she can at least take down its most high profile executive. It's April 2021, and Wayne Lapierre is on the stand in a New York courtroom. He's been on trial for four days, and the judge is absolutely fed up with him. Sarah, can you read what he says to Wayne?

[Sarah Haggie]

Yes. He says, can you answer the questions that are asked? Do you understand that I've said that to you more than a dozen times over the last day? So he's talking to him like he's a toddler.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, he is. And the thing is, this isn't even Wayne's big New York state trial. That one hasn't even started yet. This is a bankruptcy hearing. When New York state filed its lawsuit against the nra, Wayne put on his tough guy act in public, calling it, quote, an affront to democracy and freedom. But in private, he was scrambling. The NRA filed for bankruptcy as a way to try to weasel out of the New York suit. It was a rogue move. Wayne did it without Telling the NRA lawyers, his top lobbyist, or most of the board, it also doesn't seem like it's going to work. Work. Wayne is, to put it mildly, not great on the stand. He gives long, rambling answers that run way off topic. He blurts out incriminating evidence about himself, and his lawyer has to make him stop talking. At one point, he tells the court that he doesn't know his own phone number. And when he does figure out how to answer a question, it doesn't exactly help his case. Wayne sees himself as a perpetual victim who needs all of his crazy expenses for security reasons. For example, it comes out that every summer for the last five years, Wayne and Susan have hidden out in the Bahamas on a Hollywood producer's 108 foot yacht. Sarah, do you want to read Wayne's testimony about the yacht?

[Sarah Haggie]

Yeah. He says, I was basically under presidential threat without presidential security in terms of the number of threats I was getting. And this was the one place that I hope could feel safe, where I remember getting there going, thank God I'm safe. Nobody can get me here. What? Oh, my. He's so out of touch.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah.

[Sarah Haggie]

You're just kind of like, do you understand what is happening around you and the situation you're in at all?

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah. Delusional. And after six days of Wayne's brutal testimony, the judge dismisses the NRA's bankruptcy claim, saying it was filed in bad faith. The legal process drags out until January 2024, when the NRA's New York Corruption trial is finally set to begin. Just three days before it starts, Wayne finally quits as EVP of the nra. And he says it's because he has chronic Lyme disease. But even after resigning, he still has to take the stand. And this time, he's at least slightly more prepared. The state's lawyers present evidence of all the personal expenses he's charged to the nra. At first, Wayne gives mostly yes or no answers. But as the trial goes on, Wayne pivots to a new strategy. In the bankruptcy trial, he said he needed his fancy things for security reasons. Now he says they are professional expenses because he needs to play the character of Wayne lapierre, and therefore all of his crazy spending was what he needed to do to keep up the illusion. He blames his extravagant clothes budget on the ACMAC execs who told him he needed to dress a certain way and literally calls the clothes costumes. He explains that he needed to take his Underwild sky safari so he could be filmed hunting because he quote, needed to build a rep and be seen as a hunter. I needed to develop the street cred. Then he tells the jury that he would never take a shot without it being on camera.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know, in some ways he's right, but not as a way to absolve him of being guilty. Yeah, yeah, he was a character and he was shaped by these people. He was, quite frankly, nothing before this. He didn't have an identity, it seemed, which is funny enough, kind of what Hulk Hogan did with the sex tape. He said there's a character of Hulk Hogan and then there's Terry Bollea and he's trying to pull that, but it's just not really gonna work.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah. Well, at least Wayne is finally telling the truth about how deeply he's been conning people. Sort of. But you're right, Sarah, it still doesn't get him out of trouble. In February 2024, a jury finds Wayne and several other NRA higher ups guilty of a number of charges, including corruption and financial misconduct. And a year later, on February 23, 2025, Wayne is found liable for self dealing in order to pay the NRA back more than $4.3 million. He's also banned from serving on the NRA's board for 10 years. Earlier this year, Wayne appealed his conviction. And in August, the Department of justice subpoenaed Letitia as part of an investigation into whether she and her office violated the civil rights of Trump or NRA executives. Wayne's three decade long career at the head of the NRA might have come to an ignoble end, but the culture shift he oversaw, making gun owners feel like they're the victims of an all out liberal culture war, will be his legacy. Sarah, did you predict that the NRA would be so rife with scandal? I, for one, am shocked.

[Sarah Haggie]

I'd say I wasn't shocked. No, no, I think I. This is kind of what I thought.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, yeah, right. Does it make you think differently about the NRA and their lobbying tactics and how they have worked in the United States for the last 20 years?

[Sarah Haggie]

It is just so infuriating how passive the government is to lobbyists in general. I mean, it's almost like abstractly not even about the guns. It's just like the ultimate tool and cause to make people do what you want. I think they're just like shitty, rotten people. You know, I think the thing that.

[Sachi Cole]

Bothers me so much about this is the demise of the NRA is their own financial malfeasance and not the fact that they are in Congress making sure that it is as easy as possible for people to get something that murders children.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know, there's really so much to say, but I want to zero in on Wayne as a human being. I think he's one of our most pathetic scammers because it's like he stumbled into a scam and he worked as though he had no agency. Almost.

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah. There's a pitifulness to this that he got swept up in all of this for an organization that he didn't even seem to really give a shit about that much that he had to fake it. I mean, having to admit that you have been in character work for the better part of your career is rock bottom. He really wanted to get out of that corruption charge. He was just so craven and boring and nothing and just this vessel for people to pour their bad thoughts into and then he would just go do them.

[Sarah Haggie]

You know how there's some people and you're like, oh, they obviously, like, married the first person they dated, like, that they didn't really make a choice. It just kind of was like, well, I guess this is what's going on and that's it. I'm okay with this. I think he's just cut from that cloth. It's such an interesting character study to me of this, like, total loser who shares behavior of, like, losers of the world, you know, I do wonder if you really pressed him just like, hey, between us, like, what do you really think about guns? Like, did you really care? Did you care about guns at all? I feel like he just wouldn't even know how to respond.

[Sachi Cole]

Wayne Lapierre might be our first personality hire scammer, except the personality is he doesn't have one and that's why he was hired.

[Sarah Haggie]

I think it's really important for people to understand, like, sometimes the best personality you can have is no personality, you know?

[Sachi Cole]

Yeah, this episode is really loser, boring, tedious man representation. If you're listening at home and you think you can't be a scam artist because you're not compelling, let this be proof you can do it. Loving scamflancers get exclusive episodes and early access to new ones. All ad free on Wondry Plus. Join now in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. Before you go, help us out by taking a quick [e-mail] survey. This is Wayne LaPierre, America's hired and fired gun. I'm Sachi Cole.

[Sarah Haggie]

And I'm Sarah Heggie. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email [e-mail] we use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were Inside the Downfall of the NRA by Tim Mack Even before his trial, the NRA's Wayne Lapierre was a fraud by Mike Spies for the New Yorker and the Civil War that Could Doom the NRA by Sarah Ellison for Vanity Fair.

[Sachi Cole]

Emma Healey wrote this episode. Additional writing by us Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggie. Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact checking by Kalina Newman. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Bella Velasquez for Freeze on Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock, Janine Cornello and Stephanie Jens, our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our senior producers are Sarah Enny and Ginny Blume. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer, Beckman Marshall Louie and Erin o'. Flaherty. For Wondry.

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