Small Q’s Escape and the Fight to End Forced Scamming

Summary

Scammerland: Small Q’s Escape and the Fight to End Forced Scamming
Hosted by Julian Morgans
Release Date: April 14, 2025

---

Introduction

In the gripping final episode of the Scammerland series, host Julian Morgans delves into the harrowing journey of Small Q, a victim of Southeast Asia's notorious scammer farms, and the global efforts to dismantle these oppressive networks. This episode not only chronicles Small Q's desperate bid for freedom but also explores the intricate challenges faced by international bodies and governments in combating these sophisticated scam operations.

---

Small Q’s Desperate Escape

The episode opens with Julian recounting Small Q’s courageous attempt to communicate his plight. After enduring relentless torture, Small Q manages to send a distress message using a stolen phone, reaching out to Ugandan ambassador Betty Begombi.

Small Q (03:14):
"She was like, I'm happy to hear from you that you guys are all alive. Where are you exactly? So I was able to send a location using WhatsApp with my team."

Julian narrates how Betty, in collaboration with Judah Tanner and his team from Global Advanced Projects, orchestrated a daring rescue mission to liberate Small Q and 22 other Ugandan victims from the scammer farms.

Judah Tanner (04:05):
"We are not productive. They actually scared us at a point to be like, we're gonna kill you to get maybe organs, you guys, and sell you to get our money back."
(04:05)

Despite threats of horrific violence, the UN reported that these criminal groups have indeed carried out such atrocities, making the mission to rescue the victims both urgent and perilous.

---

The Rescue Operation

Betty Begombi showcases remarkable bravery by negotiating directly with the Burmese militia leader responsible for the scammer farms. Her approach was strategic—highlighting the shared military history between the Ugandans and the Myanmar forces to establish common ground.

Betty Begombi (05:07):
"She has not been afraid of walking into the African warlord's area, into the jungles, into the bushlands, and negotiating with the worst of the worst in order to save her people."
(04:44)

With Judy Tanner’s team meticulously confirming the identities of the captives and coordinating with the Thai government, the stage was set for a high-stakes rescue. On the day of the operation, the tension was palpable as Small Q and his fellow captives were led to the border river.

Small Q (06:34):
"We woke up one day, it was around 11am and they told us, pack your stuff and go. This was like a dream we didn't actually believe."
(06:34)

A mechanical failure threatened to derail the escape, but timely intervention ensured that all 23 Ugandans, including Small Q, successfully crossed into freedom.

Judah Tanner (08:35):
"And I just remember seeing the group, and they're waving. I mean, they're just. It's. It's historic. Their freedom, their walk of freedom, they came across."
(08:35)

---

Life After Freedom: Small Q’s New Mission

Back in Uganda, Small Q grapples with the physical and psychological scars of his ordeal. Despite his trauma, he emerges with a new purpose: to educate others about the dangers of scammer farms and prevent others from falling into similar traps.

Small Q (11:19):
"I'm not trying to tell that everywhere is bad, but before you go somewhere, make sure these people, you trust them, make sure you know someone at least there."
(12:20)

He actively engages with media and utilizes his platform as a musician to spread awareness, hoping that his story will serve as a deterrent to vulnerable individuals considering questionable job opportunities abroad.

Small Q (29:17):
"I used to write a lot of songs, including a song that I made talking about my story, which is called Tumutende. It means let's praise him."
(29:17)

---

Global Efforts to Combat Scammer Farms

Julian transitions to a critical analysis of the broader fight against scammer farms by interviewing John Wojciech, a regional analyst for the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) based in Thailand.

John Wojciech (16:10):
"So I'd say the way that we look at it is sort of from four pillars."
(16:16)

John outlines UNODC’s four-pronged approach:

1. Information Collection & Sharing: Gathering intelligence on scammer farm operations and disseminating it across Southeast Asian nations to create a unified front.
2. Expedited Information Sharing: Facilitating swift communication between countries like Cambodia and Thailand to protect victims and recover stolen assets.
3. Convene Efforts: Bringing together governments, NGOs, and policy-makers to bridge gaps between frontline law enforcement and strategic policy design.
4. Forensic Support: Providing digital forensic services to developing nations lacking the resources to investigate and prosecute cybercrimes effectively.

Despite these efforts, John emphasizes the inherent challenges posed by the highly entrepreneurial and technologically adept nature of scammer farm operators.

John Wojciech (18:13):
"They are highly entrepreneurial, they're extremely agile, and they run their criminal enterprises in the same way that Amazon or Microsoft or any large scale transnational enterprise might do."
(18:13)

This adaptability renders traditional governmental countermeasures insufficient, as criminal groups continue to innovate and expand their operations rapidly.

---

Challenges in Dismantling Scammer Farms

Julian and John discuss the limitations faced by international agencies, including issues of sovereignty and lack of mandate, which hinder proactive cross-border interventions.

John Wojciech (19:17):
"We don't have that capability and we don't have that mandate."
(19:17)

Furthermore, regional dependencies on the illicit revenue generated by scammer farms complicate efforts to offer viable alternatives to impoverished communities entrenched in these operations.

Judah Tanner (21:12):
"These are regions that have been dirt poor for decades and now, now finally they have money and they're not going to let a simple power outage get in the way of that."
(21:12)

He poignantly highlights the lack of sustainable economic alternatives, suggesting that simply shutting down scammer farms without providing other means of livelihood may drive affected populations back into subsistence hardship.

---

Protecting Individuals from Scams

With structural solutions appearing elusive, the episode shifts focus to individual strategies for safeguarding against scamming threats. John Wojciech emphasizes the importance of robust cyber hygiene and awareness.

John Wojciech (26:21):
"You are vulnerable. I'm vulnerable. Right. And you're being targeted in one way, shape or form, I'll guarantee you."
(26:21)

He advises listeners to:

• Regularly check if their emails have been compromised.
• Utilize open-source tools to monitor their online exposure.
• Consider professional services to secure their digital presence.

John Wojciech (27:04):
"See where you're exposed online, see what comes up when you Google yourself, right?"
(27:04)

Julian reflects on the daunting reality that while systemic change is slow, individual vigilance remains a critical defense against falling victim to scams.

---

Conclusion: Education as a Defense

In his closing remarks, Julian acknowledges the formidable nature of scammer farms and the limited efficacy of current global countermeasures. However, he underscores the podcast's role in raising awareness and educating the public to prevent future victims.

Julian Morgans (27:28):
"But what are we trying to do here? And I think the answer is education... to be extra weary about starting an online conversation with someone who refuses to meet, or clicking on a link from an unknown source, or moving to Southeast Asia for a job that seems too good to be true."
(27:28)

Small Q's resilience and continued advocacy embody the hope that education and awareness can mitigate the exploitation perpetuated by scammer farms.

---

Final Reflections and Call to Action

The episode concludes with acknowledgments to the contributors and a heartfelt note on the importance of supporting organizations like Global Advanced Projects, which play a pivotal role in rescuing and rehabilitating victims.

Julian Morgans (32:23):
"Judah and his team at Global Advanced Projects rely on donations to do the work, rescuing people from scammer farms... anything you give is tax deductible."
(32:23)

Listeners are encouraged to support these vital efforts and to stay informed, ensuring that the lessons from Scammerland translate into real-world prevention and assistance.

---

Key Takeaways

• Scammer Farms: Large-scale, organized operations in Southeast Asia that enslave individuals to run relentless online scams.

• Rescue Missions: Coordinated efforts by brave individuals and dedicated organizations can liberate victims, though such operations are fraught with danger and complexity.

• Global Response Challenges: International bodies like the UNODC face significant hurdles, including sovereignty issues and the sophisticated nature of scammer operations.

• Personal Vigilance: Individuals must prioritize cyber hygiene and stay informed to protect themselves from falling prey to scams.

• Role of Education: Raising awareness is crucial in preventing future exploitation and supporting victims in reclaiming their lives.

---

Notable Quotes

• Small Q (06:34):
  "We woke up one day, it was around 11am and they told us, pack your stuff and go. This was like a dream we didn't actually believe."

• Judah Tanner (04:05):
  "They actually scared us at a point to be like, we're gonna kill you to get maybe organs, you guys, and sell you to get our money back."

• John Wojciech (18:13):
  "They are highly entrepreneurial, they're extremely agile, and they run their criminal enterprises in the same way that Amazon or Microsoft or any large scale transnational enterprise might do."

• Julian Morgans (27:28):
  "I think the answer is education... to be extra weary about starting an online conversation with someone who refuses to meet, or clicking on a link from an unknown source, or moving to Southeast Asia for a job that seems too good to be true."

---

Final Thoughts

Scammerland presents a sobering examination of the dark underbelly of modern cybercrime, highlighting both the resilience of its victims and the intricate challenges faced by those striving to end such atrocities. While the battle against scammer farms is far from over, episodes like this serve as crucial reminders of the human stories behind the statistics and the ongoing need for collective action and awareness.

Transcript

[Kristen Thorne]

Last year, Law and Crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe, with her car. Karen Reid is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution.

[Julian Morgans]

We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case.

[Kristen Thorne]

But now the case is back in the spotlight and one question still lingers. Did Karen reed kill John O'Keefe?

[John Wojciech]

The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

[Julian Morgans]

How does it feel to be a cop killer?

[Kristen Thorne]

Karen I'm Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter with Law and Crime and host of the podcast the Retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is in the balance and it shouldn't be.

[Julian Morgans]

I just want people to go go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her.

[Kristen Thorne]

Listen to episodes of Karen the Retrial exclusively and ad free on Wondery this Mother's Day.

[Pam Genoff]

Give the gift of an unforgettable story. Delight her with Last Twilight in Paris by Pam Genoff. This instant New York Times bestseller is a gripping tale of love, loss and courage. Last Twilight in Paris is available wherever books are sold. This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for [e-mail] safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a U r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, I'm Julian Morgans and you're listening to Scammerland. This is our final episode of the series and over the last five EPs we've been looking at how online scams are run by people living in slavery in Southeast Asia. We've been following the stories of two people who have been abducted and are trying to escape. And in this Last episode, we're following Small Q as he makes a break for freedom. But we're also going to be looking at what all of this means for the world. What do we do now that we know these things exist? Scammer farms are costing us billions of dollars every year. So how are the world's governments trying to deal with this ballooning new threat? Welcome to Scammerland. Alright, let's start this episode with Small Q. As you'll remember from the last episode, he's been brutally tortured, but he's managed to text a Ugandan ambassador using a phone that he stole from his boss.

[Small Q]

She was like, I'm happy to hear from you that you guys are all alive. Where are you exactly? So I was able to send a location using WhatsApp with my team. I wouldn't say that. I say I did this all alone because we're exchanging ideas and everything.

[Julian Morgans]

This ambassador is a woman named Betty Begombi, and she contacted a man named Judah Tanner, who we heard from in the last episode. And they got to work rescuing not just Q, but 22 other Ugandans who had been sold into slavery. But it was taking a while and Q was trying to work as little as possible, just hoping that they'd give up and let him go.

[Small Q]

We are not productive. They actually scared us at a point to be like, we're gonna kill you to get maybe organs, you guys, and sell you to get our money back.

[Julian Morgans]

This wasn't an empty threat. The UN has seen cases where scammer farm victims are murdered and their organs get sold on the black market. So Judah was doing everything he could to get Q out, but it was just taking time.

[Judah Tanner]

I remember talking and chatting to him and through his group and being like, we're trying our hardest, but we could not give any assurances until the day that they actually stepped onto that barge.

[Julian Morgans]

Meanwhile, what was happening was that Betty Bogombi, the Ugandan ambassador, had asked to meet with the Burmese militia leader running the Scammerfarm region. Her plan, Basically, she was just going to ask him to release the Ugandans.

[Judah Tanner]

The interesting thing is she's got a lot of bravery and if you read her bio, she has not been afraid of walking into the African warlord's area, into the jungles, into the bushlands, and negotiating with the worst of the worst in order to save her people. It wasn't very different. Asked her would she consider a conversation with a militia group.

[Julian Morgans]

Judah, through some people who knew some people who knew some people, was able to set up this meeting. And Betty went in to meet this general who is orchestrating this war against the official Myanmar government. And he's a pretty dangerous man.

[Judah Tanner]

And in that conversation, she had shared about how her Ugandans actually shed blood in Myanmar, that they fought for the same thing that this Karen group were fighting for. And so she came at that very level with him and she pleaded with him for, for her people.

[Julian Morgans]

And this actually worked. Betty's pleas efficiently moved. This warlord and his team took a list of names into the scammer farms to confirm that they had these people.

[Judah Tanner]

We were talking to many people within the compound, texting, messaging, trying to get, you know, passport numbers, names, identification. We really had to be able to pinpoint exactly which building they were in.

[Julian Morgans]

The next step involved arranging transport and accommodation for 23 people. And this involved assuring the Thai government that these people wouldn't become their problem.

[Judah Tanner]

So Thai military accepted the job of receiving these victims of human trafficking.

[Julian Morgans]

So this very delicate diplomatic dance is being choreographed between the local militia in Myanmar, the Thai government and the Taiwanese scammer farm owners who they just have to play ball because they're renting the land from Myanmar. And everyone agreed to this exchange. And the big day arrived.

[Small Q]

We woke up one day, it was around 11am and they told us, pack your stuff and go. This was like a dream we didn't actually believe. I remember even forgot a lot of stuff there. My property there, like the clothes, everything. Because we rushed. I just woke up, I put everything in the bag. Then I got outside. They made us make a line. They told us much do they get?

[Julian Morgans]

That morning on the Thai side of the border, Judah's team had been frantically trying to find someone who'd meet the Ugandans outside their compound. Because he'd been told if anything went wrong or if there were any delays, all the Ugandans would go straight back.

[Judah Tanner]

Into the compound at 7am in the morning. We were running around that area just trying to find a military leader that would agree to receive them that morning. And we didn't even have the okay yet.

[Julian Morgans]

The stakes are very high here and very real. Judah told me he's seen lots of people on the cusp of freedom get sent back into the scammer farms just due to a delay in the handover or because of some small, very minor screw up. And he managed to find someone to meet the Ugandans who were being marched out.

[Small Q]

We couldn't even believe that we are getting out, 23 of us. They read our names. Moises Gideon. That was the first time that's My.

[Julian Morgans]

Name, Q and his friends were driven to the river that marks the border between Myanmar and Thailand, and they could see freedom. But the barge motor to bring them across the river, it had broken down. And for Judah, this was a really tense moment.

[Judah Tanner]

It took an extra, like, maybe 45 minutes to an hour for an engineer to come down and fix the motors so that the barge could come across. And we had actually been given a timeline. If this does not happen at this time, they will be sent back to the compound. And we were down to the wire like, I am holding my breath.

[Julian Morgans]

Finally, the engine in the barge coughed to life, and 23 Ugandans piled on board. And then the barge chugged across the water.

[Judah Tanner]

And I just remember seeing the group, and they're waving. I mean, they're just. It's. It's historic. Their freedom, their walk of freedom, they came across. And of course, we had to shake hands with each person as they come and identify who they were, look at their passports, made sure we had them checked off the list so we weren't leaving anyone behind, making sure we had the right numbers and the right people.

[Julian Morgans]

And of course, among that crowd was Small Q.

[Small Q]

And I was like, yeah, man, we've made it. You can see the smiles on our face that day.

[Julian Morgans]

And Judah, he also remembers meeting Q for the very first time.

[Judah Tanner]

I remember seeing him sitting by himself at the back, and I just wanted to connect personally with each person. I sat beside him, and he looked at me and he goes, my name's Small Q. And I was like, oh, cool. You know, and he said, oh, the other part of it was that I'm actually this semi famous musician, and I'm on YouTube. My backstory is obviously being in the music industry as well at some points in my. In my early youth. And so we sit there on my iPhone, just watching his YouTube clips, and I was, like, just amazed that this guy, he didn't show off, you know, he just spoke simply. He was just this young kid in the back of this room, and. And he was subtle.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, he is.

[Judah Tanner]

And I'm watching him on stage, and I'm watching him with this. This bravazo. And I was like, wow, I really.

[Julian Morgans]

Like this layer to our story. Small Q is this musician, you know, this rapper with 11,000 followers on Instagram, big YouTube channel. But he's also gone through hell. And he arrived home bruised and battered and much thinner than when he left. But he was alive, which he says was a gift. Yeah. But it was a complicated one because he found himself right back where he'd started, but just much worse off.

[Small Q]

This was not the. The Gideon that left in the first place. Yeah, the happy one, cuz. Man, I went taking selfies thinking I'm going to change my life and people around me, but now coming back without anything. Imagine my brother, just my dirty clothes in my bag. Man, this is so emotional, bro.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, it's okay.

[Small Q]

Yeah. But God is the greatest man. I was able to come back with life and this is something that I'm grateful for each and every day.

[Julian Morgans]

Q now has a new mission. His role, as he sees it, is to warn his fellow countrymen from traveling to Southeast Asia for unverified jobs. He's been on many news programs throughout Uganda for this reason. And it's why he wanted to come on this show to tell us his story.

[Small Q]

I'm not trying to tell that everywhere is bad, but before you go somewhere, make sure these people, you trust them, make sure you know someone at least there. Actually, Thailand was not like my dream country to go to. I've always, you know, dream to come to countries like Australia, usa, but this was like looking for greener pastures. It was mainly more about, you know, changing my life. So, yeah, let this be a message to the youth watching us that, man, you have to be so cautious about where you're going before make sure the process is right.

[Julian Morgans]

We're going to come back to Q at the end of this episode, but we're going to take an ad break here. Stick around because when we're back, we're going to dive into the global effort to combat Scammer Farms.

[Kristen Thorne]

Last year, Law and Crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe, with her car. Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution.

[Julian Morgans]

We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case.

[Kristen Thorne]

But now the case is back in the spotlight and one question still lingers. Did Karen reed kill John O'Keefe?

[John Wojciech]

The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

[Julian Morgans]

How does it feel to be a cop killer? Karen?

[Kristen Thorne]

I'm Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter with Law and Crime and host of the podcast Karen the Retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is in the balance and it shouldn't be.

[Julian Morgans]

I just want people to go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her.

[Kristen Thorne]

Listen to Episodes of the Retrial exclusively and ad free on Wondery.

[Pam Genoff]

This podcast is brought to you by Aura. By the time you hear about a data breach, your information has already been exposed for months. On average, companies take 277 days to report a breach. That's nine months where hackers have access to your personal data. That's why we're thrilled to partner with Aura. Aura is an all in one digital safety solution that monitors the dark web for your phone number, email and Social Security number, sending real time alerts if your info is found. It also includes a vpn, password manager and data broker removal to help keep you safe for a limited time. Aura is offering a 14 day free trial plus a dark web scan to check if your personal information has been leaked. All for [e-mail] safety. That's Aura.com safety to sign up and protect your loved ones. That's a u r a.com safety terms apply. Check the site for details.

[Julian Morgans]

Hey, welcome back. So throughout this series we've been pretty focused on understanding the problem. And I think throughout so many of these interviews I've been like, oh, we just got to send in the troops, you know, we got to blow this thing up. But we can't do that. And to find out why we can't, I'm going to speak to a man named John Wojciech who's a regional analyst based in Thailand for the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. This is the unodc and I've spoken about these guys before. They're basically our first line of defense against global drug trafficking, cyber fraud and money laundering. Hello, John. Welcome to the show.

[John Wojciech]

Thanks. Thanks very much for having me.

[Julian Morgans]

Can we start with a bit of an introduction? How did you get this job?

[John Wojciech]

I studied law, politics and philosophy. Found my way into the UN working as an intern. Ended up moving to the regional headquarters here in Bangkok where I started to really dig into more of the organized crime portfolio.

[Julian Morgans]

I'm trying to place your accent. You Dutch, Polish, Canadian. Polish, Canadian.

[Small Q]

Okay.

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah, the Z. The Z in your last name was a bit of evidence I ignored.

[John Wojciech]

But okay, no worries because there's actually no Zed in my last name.

[Julian Morgans]

So the W. The W. The W, yeah. Right. One of those sort of kinky letters.

[John Wojciech]

Yeah, yeah.

[Julian Morgans]

So after that really smooth start, I asked John what the UNODC is doing about scammer farms or what any intergovernmental group can do about scammer farms.

[John Wojciech]

Yeah, it's a pretty daunting question, isn't it?

[Julian Morgans]

Yeah.

[John Wojciech]

So I'd say the way that we look at it is sort of from four pillars.

[Julian Morgans]

For the sake of brevity, I'm just going to summarize the four pillars or what John really means is the four ways that the UNODC is combating scammer farms. So first up, they're collecting information about how these farms work and who runs them, and then they're sharing that information across Asia. So for example, Cambodia has all the same intel that Thailand has.

[John Wojciech]

So we try to work to sort of expedite that information sharing through formal and informal channels to ideally, you know, protect victims, but also in an ideal scenario, freeze and seize and recover some of the assets that have been stolen.

[Julian Morgans]

So that's the first two ways that the UNODC is trying to deal with scam of harms. Then their third method is something that they call convening. And what that is, it's basically bringing together governments with people and NGOs, so.

[John Wojciech]

Sort of bridging that gap between hardline, frontline law enforcement and the policy making folks who are in the business of designing solutions and responses.

[Julian Morgans]

Then their last pillar is offering forensic services to developing nations that don't have the resources to do it themselves.

[John Wojciech]

Things like digital evidence, digital forensics. You know, a lot of intelligence can be collected from devices, right? But in a lot of these cases, those processes to collect that information, to analyze it and to utilize it in a court of law, not really present.

[Julian Morgans]

So the UN can step in and offer their experts to developing countries. And that is the four ways they're trying to combat scammer farms. I guess what I'm hearing is that the problem is this sort of fast moving, decentralized industry. But it sounds to me like the UNODC's response. It's quite formal, like you've got these pillars, but it doesn't sound nearly as nimble as the adversary that you guys are taking on. Like, am I right here? Is this a problem?

[John Wojciech]

Yeah, it's definitely a problem. I mean, they are highly entrepreneurial, they're extremely agile, and they run their criminal enterprises in the same way that Amazon or Microsoft or any large scale transnational enterprise might do. So, right? They're based on bottom line, they're very rapid in their decision making, they're extremely efficient in integrating new technologies that can increase their efficiency and empower them. Traditionally, government systems do not operate the same way. Right.

[Julian Morgans]

So in summary, the criminal groups are, in the words of Mark Zuckerberg, moving fast and breaking things and the UNODC is doing their best to move fast as well. But they're not allowed to break things. In my mind when I'm like, how are we going to stop this? I think, oh, we need the world sort of police. What is that? Oh, that's kind of the UN let's just send in the jet fighters and boots on the ground and let's dismantle these, these compounds.

[John Wojciech]

Why can't we do that little word called sovereignty? Yeah. I mean, the way that things work, unfortunately, perhaps is not as you've described. I've been asked previously, why can't the UN mobilize some sort of a cross border effort to launch an offensive on, you know, what's happening on the Thai Myanmar border, for instance. Right. First and foremost, we don't have that capability and we don't have that mandate. Right. We are a law enforcement adjacent agency. We don't conduct operations or investigations. Secondly, UN peacekeeping forces wouldn't be drawn into that kind of a conflict. And at the end of the day, from my understanding, they would need to be invited by the host government. Even for the Thai government, for instance, who shares a border with some of those operations on the Myanmar side, they're finding it very difficult to, you know, to address the situation as well. Even despite the fact that the Thai tourism industry is now suffering from some of these, you know, human trafficking incidents.

[Julian Morgans]

I'd like to point out here that the Thai government has recently started cracking down on Myanmar. In the start of February this year, they cut electricity, Internet and fuel supplies to five areas along the border in an effort to choke out the scammer farms. And this was a big event. It was widely announced by the Thai government to appease any suggestion that they were complicit. So Thailand has started doing their part. But in the long run, power cuts are pretty ineffective. As we've discussed, these are huge conglomerates. They can just build their own power plants. But the other complication is that these regions in Myanmar have become pretty financially dependent on scamming. This is something that Judah actually pointed out to me and what he said was that these are regions that have been dirt poor for decades and now, now finally they have money and they're not going to let a simple power outage get in the way of that.

[Judah Tanner]

Their people have never had enough to eat. They've never had enough to, you know, build proper roads, have infrastructure. They're now in a position where the first time in the history of their people, they've got enough money to feed everyone, for everyone to have, you know, houses to bring in electricity, oil to have cars, Roads, infrastructure. They've never had any of this before. And now we're asking for them to give away the one thing that has given them their own independence and some level of assurity of tomorrow, some survival of tomorrow. I think that's where we have to look and say, if we're asking them to close these down, what, what alternative are we offering them? Is the alternative that they go back to hand to mouth subsistence living, where their people have no idea where the next bowl of rice is going to come from? Obviously that, that can't be the result because we're not going to see that happen.

[Julian Morgans]

Judah's point here is an incredible exercise in empathy. On the one hand, he's asking us to sympathize with the people who are scamming us, but on the other, he's illuminating why this is just going to be such a hard thing to stamp out. It's not just an illicit business. It's bringing wealth and opportunity to an impoverished war zone. And with that in mind, I asked John whether the world would just have to accept slavery powered scamming as the new normal. I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but it sounds like this is going to be hard to beat.

[John Wojciech]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the, the way that things are trending right now, it's. There's maybe a few things that I would say is, first and foremost, we're seeing the criminal groups involved in this activity very quickly emerging into more sophisticated cyber threat actors. Right. So they're leveraging malware, they're leveraging advanced methods of laundering their money, and they're developing new platforms in which they can conduct their business.

[Julian Morgans]

So what do you mean by new platforms?

[John Wojciech]

So I'm talking about illicit online marketplaces that have specifically popped up in the region on Telegram. They offer, like I mentioned, a bunch of different sort of specialty services, from laundering to web hosting to malware as a service, a bunch of these different things can be found in those platforms.

[Julian Morgans]

So I'm kind of imagining like the old Silk Road, you know, like a marketplace where you go and buy drugs and guns. Is it like that, but just more sort of technologically advanced?

[John Wojciech]

Yeah, I would say so, but it's all happening very much out in the open. A lot of these groups have upwards of like a million users. Hundreds of thousands is very common. So, you know, I would sort of frame this under a more broader professionalization that's taking place within the industry. And you know, I think unfortunately we're kind of just getting started with where this is heading.

[Julian Morgans]

We're going to take a quick ad break, but when we get back, I'm going to talk to John about how people like you and me, people who are getting scammed, can do things to protect ourselves. McCrispy strips are now at McDonald's. Tender juicy and its own sauce. Would you look at that? Well, you can't see it, but trust me, it looks delicious. New McCrispy strips now at McDonald's.

[Pam Genoff]

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[Julian Morgans]

Welcome back. So we've been talking to John at the UNODC about what can be done with scammer farms and the answer is not much. Which is all kind of depressing, right? It's just, it's just so big. So I figured if the world really is at a loss to stop online scams, the least I can do is ask John how we individuals can protect ourselves. Is the way forward just like ruthless, like ruthless cynicism at all times? Should I just click on nothing? Trust no one. Just stay off the Internet as much as possible and never go to Myanmar.

[John Wojciech]

It's a question I struggle with. Honestly. You are vulnerable. I'm vulnerable. Right. And you're being targeted in one way, shape or form, I'll guarantee you. With a platform like yours, with a profile like yours, there are plenty of criminal groups who would love to have access to your Twitter account or to your email to pump out some malicious links to your followers. Right. And so I think brushing up on again, lame cyber hygiene, cyber awareness, as lame and stupid as it sounds these days, is more critical than ever.

[Julian Morgans]

Right.

[John Wojciech]

Go check if your emails have been compromised. A lot of open source tools to kind of work on that hygiene piece.

[Julian Morgans]

Right?

[John Wojciech]

See where you're exposed online, see what comes up when you Google yourself, right? If you've got the resources, maybe pay a company to help you wipe that out. And unfortunately, I think for a lot of people it's going to take some growing pains, if you will, right? Whether that means being scammed or having an email sent to yourself from your own email that asks for Bitcoin.

[Julian Morgans]

I think after talking to John and after talking to Judah and Troy and Small Q and Cattleya, I'm bringing us to a pretty somber conclusion. I don't think this industry can be stopped. It's in this era of rapid expansion and I think just even slowing it down is impractical. So that's brought me to this place of wondering what purpose this podcast serves. I mean, sure, it's entertaining in a morbid way, but. But what are we trying to do here? And I think the answer is education, as in now you know what's happening. Now you can be extra weary about starting an online conversation with someone who refuses to meet, or clicking on a link from an unknown source, or moving to Southeast Asia for a job that seems too good to be true. That's ultimately what this series is about. It's just spreading the word about what's happening so that hopefully Scammer Farms find it harder to recruit and harder to scam. And I think that's the best we can aim for. Small Q is home in Uganda now, and he's doing everything he can to warn people from traveling to Asia. He's talking to media, he's posting on social media, and he's writing music about Scammer Farms. In fact, some of you watching this on YouTube or Spotify, you might have noticed right at the very beginning of this series in EP1, we use this video clip from one of Q's songs, which included shots of him tied up on a wall. This song is about his experience in the Scammer farm, and this video clip references his experience in the dark room. In fact, he says that he wrote some of the music in his head just while he was suspended on hooks by his handcuffs, even in the dark room.

[Small Q]

I used to write a lot of songs, including a song that I made talking about my story, which is called Tumutende. It means let's praise him. Tum tende is a Lugandan word. Let's praise him. If you read the relics of this song, it starts when I'm saying the owner of the world, he can control this world. So why don't you praise him? He can get you out of any situation. He was able to get me out of hell. I'm sure he can give me a good future. I don't know if I can give you a sample of that song here.

[Julian Morgans]

I would love to hear it. Absolutely.

[Small Q]

You are my darling. Can we sing together, if you don't mind?

[Julian Morgans]

Let's do it. All right. Okay. Is that the word?

[Small Q]

That's it, my brother.

[Julian Morgans]

Are they the words?

[Small Q]

I'm making you to speak Luganda now. Yeah, that's it.

[Julian Morgans]

That's. You got a beautiful voice. That. That really took me somewhere. That's.

[Judah Tanner]

That was amazing.

[Small Q]

I'm sure you don't understand everything in this song, but basically, I've told you, you can now relate.

[Julian Morgans]

He's right. I didn't really understand what we sang, but the mood. Honestly, the mood got me. And although we've covered some of the worst parts of humanity through this series, I feel like Small Q represents some of the best.

[Small Q]

I always give hope to people that you don't have to worry about me. I'm going to be fine. I still have bigger dreams now, actually. Like, I want to go back to school, finish with school, that computer science, science and everything together degree so that I get a perfect job for it. Yeah, man. So that's it. I'm still me.

[Julian Morgans]

Well, Small Q, this has been such a pleasure. I mean, it's a horrible story, but talking to you and sharing this with you has been a real pleasure.

[Small Q]

It's such a blessing, man. I've been so blessed to be here to share my story to the world. You know, it's going to help a lot of people that, you know, have ideas about going to countries where they, you know, have no anyone they know, they're not sure about what they're going to do. So if someone watches this is gonna think twice.

[Julian Morgans]

So Q is getting his life back on track in Uganda. And if you'd like to help out, he has a GoFundMe link and we're gonna put it in the show. Notes. And last thing just before we go. Judah and his team at Global Advanced Projects rely on donations to do the work, rescuing people from scammer farms. It's vital work, and they're not connected to any government, so it's all independent. So if you're looking for a way to help, this would be it. Global Advanced Projects donations. Just Google that and you'll find their page. And anything you give is tax deductible. Special thanks to all of our guests. Cataleya, John Wojcak from the UNODC Troy Gerkenauer from the Global Anti Scam organization. And a special thanks to Small Q and to Judah Tanner, without whom this series would have never been possible. That was the final episode of this season of Scammerland. Scammerland was produced by Rachel Tuffery, editing by me, Rachel Tuffery and Jamie Snyder. It was mixed by Jimmy Saunders, who also did our sound design. Our cover art is by Rich Akers, our interns, and Nina Fussell and Ellie Dickey. And this whole thing has been a super real production.

[Kristen Thorne]

Super real.

[Pam Genoff]

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[Julian Morgans]

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[Julian Morgans]

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