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- [00:02]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi listeners. Exciting news Crime House plus and Murder True Crime Stories are celebrating America's 250th by dropping a four part limited series on the crimes that built America. These are the crimes and cases that gave us Miranda rights, sparked criminal profiling, and a murder that built America's missing children movement. Follow Murder True Crime Stories for a new episode every Monday leading up to July 4th or or you can listen to all of them right now with Crime House Plus. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com or if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, tap Try free at the top of this show's page.
- [00:49]
Carter Roy
This is crime house.
- [00:55]
Narrator
On May 1, 1974, a Chinese communal worker named Yin Hong Fa had a life changing and life threatening encounter that morning.
- [01:04]
Macy
He was on a holiday in Qing
- [01:06]
Narrator
Long Village, about an hour or two from Beijing, and went into the forest
- [01:09]
Macy
to harvest some kudzu.
- [01:11]
Narrator
He was hacking away at the thick vines with a sickle when he heard footsteps behind him, so he asked who was there. When he didn't hear a response, Yank turned around and saw something horrifying.
- [01:23]
Natalie
A humanoid creature about 4 or 5ft tall and covered in shaggy white hair was was rushing towards him. It was walking on two legs with its head lowered and he could see its round red mouth. By the time Yin spotted it, the thing was nearly on top of him. Yin scrambled backwards as the creature reached out for him. He didn't have a chance of getting away, so he tried to fight.
- [01:44]
Narrator
Instead, Yin started chopping at the monster with his sickle, slicing at its arm.
- [01:49]
Macy
Yin managed to get a few clumps
- [01:50]
Narrator
of the thing's hair, which seemed to frighten it. Finally, Yin's attacker screeched in pain and broke away, running up the hill into the woods. Yin went sprinting back to his village, but he made sure to take the creature's hair with him to prove that he wasn't making up his story when he got home.
- [02:06]
Natalie
Nobody had ever heard of the monster he described except for one very old man. When he showed him the clump of white hair and asked if he knew what animal it came from, the man nodded and said one yearin.
- [02:19]
Narrator
In English, that translates to wild man, and according to local legend, it terrorized the Chinese countryside for more than 2,000 years.
- [02:35]
Vanessa Richardson
From UFO cults and mass suicides to secret CIA experiments, presidential assassinations, and murderous doctors, these aren't just theories, they're real stories that blur the line between fact and fiction. Every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, I'll explore the real people at the center of
- [02:53]
Host/Interviewer
the world's most shocking events events and nefarious organizations.
- [02:56]
Vanessa Richardson
These cases are wild and I want
- [02:58]
Host/Interviewer
to hear what you think at the
- [02:59]
Vanessa Richardson
end of each episode. Please leave a comment wherever you listen. Be sure to rate, review and follow so we can continue building this community together. And for ad free access to all three episodes, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [03:14]
Host/Interviewer
Today I'm joined by two very special
- [03:16]
Vanessa Richardson
guests, Macy and Natalie, who host ghosties every episode. They literally drink tea while spilling the tea on all things paranormal. They cover everything from hauntings to exorcisms to creepy asylums and demons.
- [03:31]
Host/Interviewer
Basically, they're the perfect people to help tell today's episode.
- [03:34]
Vanessa Richardson
They'll introduce the topic, then come back for a short discussion once we're done.
- [03:38]
Host/Interviewer
I can't wait to get their take on the case. Stick around, you won't want to miss it. Thank you so much, Macy and Natalie for being here today.
- [03:45]
Macy
Oh, thank you so much for the warm welcome. We're really, really excited to talk about today's topic. I'm actually really interested in this briefly or I briefly looked into it when we covered our own Bigfoot episode. So this is really exciting for me.
- [03:58]
Natalie
Yeah, Bigfoot like those. I'm not big on the cryptids. That's more of like Macy and our listeners. They are big on the cryptidy things. It takes a lot of convincing for me, but Bigfoot and Bigfoot esque things, I'm kind of all in randomly, so I'm so excited. And today we're talking about a cryptid that's known as China's Bigfoot, the Yeren. This legendary creature has appeared in Chinese folklore for thousands of years. But throughout the 20th century, many people in rural China reported their own encounters with the fearsome creature, which eventually led to one of the world's first government funded cryptid hunting expeditions.
- [04:35]
Narrator
But without any photos or other definitive proof, we're left wondering, is the Yeren a real monster that's haunted the Chinese wilderness since ancient times?
- [04:43]
Macy
Or is it a glorified ghost story that took on a life of its own? All that and more after this.
- [04:55]
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- [06:28]
Vanessa Richardson
the story of the Yeren begins in the 4th century BCE, a time when rival dynasties were fighting for control of what is now called China. In the middle of this chaotic period of political and social change, the Yeren made its first appearance in a poem by Chu Yuan, a poet and aristocrat in the ancient Chinese state of Chu. In Yuan's poem, the Yeren is referred to as a Shan Gui or mountain ghost, presumably in reference to its long white hair. Yuan describes the creature as man like in size and shape and wearing fig leaves as clothing. Around this same time, a publication called Shan Hai Ching or Classic of Mountains and Seas also mentions the Yeren. This ancient text contains descriptions of many mythical beasts and supernatural entities like man eating demons, and most importantly, it suggests that the Yeren isn't a singular monster, but part of a whole race of quote, hairy people who lived in the mountains. These early accounts were based on ancient legends passed down from generation to generation, not first hand experience. So they don't really mention the Yeren's behavior or attitude. But just a hundred years later in the third century bce, the first ever Chinese dictionary known as the Area made it clear that these creatures were not to be messed with. The Area talks about a beast that looks similar to a man, but with long hair that hangs down its back. These creatures, which the book refers to as Fei Fei, were said to be extremely fast on their feet and fond of devouring any unlucky humans that got in their way. But by 139 BCE the Yeren had changed again. A political text from the Han Dynasty described a hairy creature called Xingxing, which has the face of a man, but quote the body of a beast. And by then, the Yeren had adopted some more advanced tactics. Artwork from the period shows the monster using a sword. That seemed to suggest the creature was only half monster and half man. But hundreds of years later, the Yeren would lose more and more of its human characteristics. During the Tang Dynasty, which lasted from the year 618 to the year 907 CE, a book of natural phenomena called Miscellaneous Morsels from Yuong provided a new
- [08:52]
Host/Interviewer
detailed description of the Yeren.
- [08:54]
Vanessa Richardson
The author described the Yeren, still referred to as Fei fei, as hairy ape like creatures. The Yeren were capable of human speech, but reportedly everything they said sounded like bird calls and their anatomy was bizarre. Miscellaneous Morsels claims the Yeren had no knees and heels that faced backwards and they were incredibly strong, reportedly capable of lifting more than half a ton. But the most interesting part was the creature's magical properties. According to the book, the Yeren were able to predict the future and knew when people would die. The book also hinted that some of those magical properties could be passed on to people who consumed parts of the Yeren's body. The author claimed that anyone who drank the blood of a Yeren would gain the ability to see ghosts. And even if you didn't want to drink the blood, it had other uses. It could be used as a dye to turn things purple, a very difficult color to create with the ingredients available at the time. The author also said the hair of the Yeren was excellent for making wigs. This description was more detailed than ever before. And that might have been because around this time, ordinary people first started reporting their own encounters with the creatures. Around the year 650 CE, a government official in the Tang Dynasty reported that a group of creatures, quote, hairy men, had assaulted an unnamed Chinese city. According to the official, these hairy men climbed over a city wall and wreaked havoc on the streets, screeching loudly and throwing heavy stones at defenders. Other details of this attack, like the specific location or if there were any casualties, have been lost to time. But the Yeren were still up to their old tricks nearly a thousand years later in 1555, when they showed up in a report by a local newspaper in the Fangxiang region in Eastern. According to the paper, a gang of hairy monsters lived in a cave system in the nearby hills and would periodically raid the town to eat chickens and dogs. These newspapers suggested that people in the Fangxiang region lived in fear of these hairy, destructive monsters. And they also gave the creatures a name that stuck for the next 500 years yeren for much of their history, the Yeren pop in and out of the historical record, disappearing for hundreds of years at a time. But by the 20th century, sightings of the Yeren began to skyrocket, and it wasn't long before locals started fighting back against these mysterious monsters.
- [11:34]
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- [12:37]
Vanessa Richardson
for over a thousand years, Chinese folklore described a race of tall, humanoid beasts covered in long, long, shaggy white hair. These creatures, eventually known as the Yeren, allegedly had magical powers, super strength, and bad attitudes. On more than one occasion, groups of Yeren reportedly attacked settlements. But these accounts were all legends, written by authors who'd heard the stories secondhand. Chinese culture and history were full of stories about strange monsters and beasts hiding in the wilderness. As China entered the modern era, most of these mythical creatures were seen more as fiction than fact. But the Yeren still seemed very real. And in the early 20th century, even more Chinese citizens started reporting encounters with these hairy cryptids. Central China's Hubei Province is home to huge mountain ranges, dense forests, and lots of isolated communities. The perfect environment for the Yeren to thrive. In the 1930s, multiple villages in Hubei Province had run ins with the Yeren. According to local newspapers, provincial government reports, and personal diaries from the time, farmers and woodcutters in the region frequently spotted the tall, hairy Yeren moving through the trees. These Yeren weren't as aggressive as the ones who attacked villages centuries earlier. Most witnesses said the creatures would quietly observe them from a distance Then run away into the trees whenever a human approached. Local animals weren't as lucky though. Yeren sightings were often connected to the disappearance of livestock from village pastures. These animals carcasses were never found. But searchers sometimes encountered unusual footprints in the mud nearby. These footprints were vaguely human shaped, but much larger, with very long stride lengths. People from various villages across the region, which had little to no contact with one another, all reported similar accounts. At that point, there was no denying it. The Yeren were targeting Hubei Province. After more than a decade of these sightings, scientists and researchers across China grew increasingly interested in the Yeren. Finally, there was growing momentum for a scientific response to this phenomenon. Experts started preparing to make an expedition to interview witnesses and comb the jungles for the first ever prison proof of the Yeren's existence. But then the government got involved. In 1949, dictator Madong came to power as China's new ruler and he had big plans. He wanted to modernize the country using industry, technology and careful government planning to usher in a golden era for Mao. A big part of that modernization was closing the book on superstitions, legends and traditional beliefs. Mao and his advisors worried that believing in these myths would make workers less productive. If farmers were too scared of the Yeren to work the fields, they would never achieve everything Mao wanted. So Mao's government made it illegal to even talk about supernatural beings like the Yeren. This put an end to any attempt by the scientific community to investigate the strange sightings in Hubei Province. But Ma's rules and regulations couldn't stop the Yeren from terrorizing the countryside. In 1957, the Yeren turned up in Sunyang county, hundreds of miles away from Hubei Province. And this encounter was much more violent than the sightings from the 1930s. On May 23, a 12 year old girl named Wang Mai was tending to her family's cows when she spotted something strange on the outskirts skirts of her village. It was a human like animal, covered in thick black hair, drinking from a stream. Seong Mei had never seen anything like it before. And when the creature began walking away, the girl followed it. That wasn't a good idea. Song Mei followed the Aaron for a little bit before it spotted her and it freaked out. The creature charged at her and Song Mei went sprinting back up to her family's pasture, screaming for help. This caught the attention of her mother and several other villagers who came running. The Yeren got bogged down in the muddy farmland and Song Mae was able to escape. But before it could get Loose from the mud, Song Mae's mother and the other villagers attacked the creature, beating it to death. Once the monster was dead, the villagers realized they'd killed a Yeren. Possibly inspired by the legendary reports of the creature's magical properties, or just because they needed a meal, the villagers ate the Yeren's body, but they saved the beast's paws, which they sent to the county government as proof of what had happened. We don't know if these villagers were punished by Mao. Local newspapers referred to the creature they'd killed as a man bear, not a Yeren. But Song Mei's encounter would be one of the most important, publicized for the next 17 years. In 1976, Mao Zedong died, bringing an end to the government's ban on discussion of the Yeren. At last, scientists, anthropologists and ordinary people could speak freely about seeing these mysterious creatures. At the same time, China began opening up more to the western world. Now Chinese people were able to read translated reports, reports about international cryptids like Bigfoot, which shares many similarities with the Yeren. This led to a period of increased interest that's now known as Yeren fever. Not long after Mao's death, Yin Hong fa, who'd been attacked by a Yeren while harvesting kudzu vines, came forward with his story, and he provided the clumps of white hair he'd cut off the creature to prove what he'd seen. But the most influential sighting came just a few months later. In May of 1976, five members of a government forestry committee in Hubei Province were driving on a back road when they nearly ran over a hairy, six foot tall creature walking on two legs. In their report, the officials claimed the beast had reddish brown hair all over its body except its palms, and they claimed it had a flat face with a mix of human and ape like features. Previously, most Yeren sightings had been reported by ordinary people like farmers and herders. But this was different. These were government employees on the clock, reporting that they'd seen the Yeren up close. And with Chairman Mao out of the picture, the government could get serious about their response. So the following year, China launched one of the world's first and only government funded cryptid investigations. In 1977, the Chinese Academy of Sciences organized the 1977 Great Expedition, which was dedicated to getting to the bottom of Hubei Province's Yeren sightings once and for all. The expedition was led by Zhou Guoxing, a professor of cultural anthropology who'd been studying the yeren since the 1950s. During the Mao era, Guo Xing had to keep his research under wraps. But now he was finally able to. To give the legendary Yeren the attention they deserved, Guo Xing assembled a team of over 100 zoologists, biologists and photographers, as well as a bevy of soldiers. Just in case the Yeren got too feisty. This small army of paranormal investigators entered the wilderness of Hubei Province and spent months combing the forests and mountains for evidence of the Yeren. Guoxing's team took plaster casts of mysterious footprints in the mud. They bagged up samples of white hair found on bushes and the forest floor. They even took scat specimens they believed had been left behind by the Yeren. And they conducted extensive interviews with residents all over the province about their Yeren experiences. Using this combination of witness interviews and biological evidence, Professor Guoxing established an official profile of what the Yeren were. Scientists determined that the creatures were approximately 6 to 6 and 12ft tall, with human shaped feet that were 30ft to 40 centimeters long. Culturally, the creatures were solitary animals that often traveled alone at night. The expedition gathered a lot of valuable knowledge, but it didn't produce any firsthand encounters with the Yeren. Some researchers believe the whole expedition was flawed from the start. The Yeren usually went out of their way to avoid human contact, but the great expedition had sent hundreds of humans into the woods. It was possible that people looking for the Yeren had made such a fuss that they actually scared them all away from Hubei province, because after 1977, there weren't many other Yeren sightings in the area. But the creatures weren't gone. They'd just found new hunting grounds. In the 1980s, residents of Yunnan Province in southwestern China began reporting encounters with with Yeren type creatures. At least one of the Yeren were killed, and witnesses preserved one of its paws as well as its skull to show researchers. In 1992, the Yeren surfaced again in Guangxi Province, a few hours away from Yunnan. One morning in late October, a villager named Jia Jishian was cutting grass for his cows when he was surprised by two Yeren, a big one and a small one, which may have been a child. This was important because it meant there were female Yeren. Jia Jishian made a run for it, but the Yeren quickly caught up to him. The big one grabbed him, picked him up and began carrying him away from the village, with the smaller Yeren following along behind. According to Jixian, the Yeren carried him through forests and over hilltops for an entire day and night before finally, finally reaching a clearing that appeared to be the creature's home. When they arrived, the larger Yerin put Ji Xian down and wandered off, while the smaller one kept an eye on him. Ji Xian wasn't sure what these creatures wanted from him, but he suspected they were looking for their next meal. Luckily, the smaller Yeren eventually got distracted. While he was unattended, Jixian took off running into the woods, even though he was exhausted. Exhausted and hungry, he managed to find his way back to his village, where he told his story to his wife and family, as well as a government investigator. When he heard about Jia Jixian's harrowing encounter, Zhou Guoxing, the professor who led the great expedition in 1977, knew he had to learn more. So he traveled to Guangxi Province to personally interview him about his experiences. And and when they sat down face to face, Professor Guoxing gained an entirely new perspective on the Yeren and its victims.
- [23:35]
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- [24:43]
Carter Roy
Hi listeners, It's Carter Roy, host of Murder True Crime Stories. I wanted to let you know that Crime House plus and Murder True Crime Stories are celebrating America's 250th by dropping a four part limited series on the crimes that built America. These are the crimes and cases that gave us Miranda rights, sparked criminal profile filing, and A murder that built America's Missing Children movement. Follow Murder True Crime Stories for a new episode every Monday leading up to July 4th, where you can binge all of them right now ad free with Crime House Plus. To join, go to crimehouseplus.com or if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, tap. Try free at the top of this show's page.
- [25:34]
Vanessa Richardson
After over a thousand years as a piece of Chinese folklore, the Yeren became the subject of a real scientific study. In the early 20th century, villagers in Hubei Province reported multiple encounters with this race of tall, white haired ape men. But firsthand proof of the Yeren was harder to come by. In 1977, university professor Zhou Guoxing led a government funded expedition in search of the creatures, but didn't find anything. Fifteen years later, in 1992, Professor Guoxing learned that a villager named Jia Jixian had been kidnapped by a pair of Yiren and barely escaped with his life. In search of some hard data about this up close encounter, Guoxing traveled to Jixian's village to interview him directly. This story proved to be a turning point in Guoxing's longtime study of the Yeren. When Guo Xing sat down to talk to Zhixian, he learned a lot of new details that hadn't been in the initial report. Zhixian explained that when the Yerin took him away, they were speaking to each other in a language he couldn't understand. He also said the creatures took him to a hidden road which eventually led them to the outskirts of a village. Ji Xian said that one of the Yeren gave him a hat that allowed him to turn invisible. Since they were pretty hungry by then, the creatures had him use his new invisibility hat to steal pork and rice from a nearby market. After that, they continued on and eventually made their way into the Jo Wan Mountains, where they encountered many other Yeren. Jixian said these Yeren were actually pretty friendly and some of them spoke a language he could understand. According to Jixian, they asked him to come and live with them and even offered him a job in their government. Jixian refused. He said he just wanted to go home. At first, the Yerin didn't want to take no for an answer, but finally they let him leave, although they took away the special invisibility hat before he left. By the time Jixian finished his story, Professor Guoxing knew that this guy wasn't a reliable narrator. But just to be sure, he went and talked to Ji Xian's wife too. According to her, Jixian didn't get kidnapped by Yerin at all. He just left town for a couple days to go visit relatives and dreamed up the story after he got back. When Jixian heard her telling him this, the two got into a massive argument. At that point, Guo Xing figured it was time for him to head home. Guo Xing had always approached his Yerin research with a healthy dose of skepticism. But after seeing how quickly Jixian's fake story took off in a life real rural community, he started to reconsider many of the other stories he'd heard about the Yeren. In the early 1960s, a rural schoolteacher named Mr. Xie reported that while hunting at night, he heard a crying sound. He went to investigate and found a mother Yeren nursing a baby yeren. Mr. Xie's account was very detailed and it gave a valuable window into the way the Yeren cared for their children. But when Guoxing investigated more closely, firstly, it turned out there was more to the story. In later interviews, Xie confirmed that he had seen a fearsome animal in the forest that day, but it was a black bear and its cub, not a Yeren. He just juiced up his story to make it more interesting and get his name in the paper. The same was true of Yin Hong fa, the man who claimed he'd fought off a Yeren with a sickle in 1974, hacking off a bunch of its white hair in the process. Hong Fa's exciting story was a major part of Yeren lore. It was even one of the motivations for Guo Xing's 1977 Great Expedition. But like all the other stories, some more digging proved that it wasn't what it seemed. When experts tested the white hairs, Kung FA claimed he cut off the Yeren. They realized the hair actually belonged to a goat like animal called Acero, which is fairly common throughout eastern China. When he was asked about this, Hong FA admitted that he'd made the entire story up. But in his defense, he never intended for his story to draw so much attention. At the time, local children in the village had been wandering off to play in the wilderness after dark. Hong FA had only told his story about fighting a monster in the forest because he wanted to scare the village kids into coming home on time. You got to give him some grace for that, right? So if so many of the stories about the Yeren were made up, what about all the physical evidence? Since the 1970s, villagers and even members of Guo Xing's own great expedition had come forward with body parts and hair samples. They claimed were taken from the Yeren. Fortunately, by the late 90s and early 2000s, Guoxing had access to new, advanced technology to test these body parts and see what they really were. One of the samples in Guoxing's archives was the preserved paws of a supposed Yeren who had chased a little girl in Sunyang county back in 1957. Locals had killed the creature after it got stuck in the mud. Now Guo Xing wanted to learn what they'd really killed. After running a radiographic analysis on the paws, Guo Xing discovered that the fearsome beast had actually been an unusually large macaque. Macaques are a type of monkey that lives in the jungles of Asia and the Pacific. They have human like faces and their thick fur, which can range in color from dark brown to gray or even white. Had the hundreds of people who'd reported seeing the Yeren actually been having run ins with wild animals? It definitely seemed that way. As Guoxing analyzed more bone and hair samples from Yeren encounters across China, they usually turned out to be the remains of one of a few macaques, black bears, or wild boars. In one case, a very long strand of silky black hair found in the forest actually turned out to be a rare type of fungus native to the area. Guo Xing also reviewed the plaster casts his researchers had made of large footprints during their 1977 Exposure Expedition. After consulting with other biologists, Guoxing realized that the giant footprints they'd seen weren't from a single animal. They were the product of multiple overlapping bear tracks, which had created an unusually long impression in the mud. In 2012, after more than half a century of studying the Yeren, Goshwing decided it was time to face the facts. He announced that in his expert opinion, the Yeren did not exist. Almost everything we learned about the Yeren in the 20th century either came from made up stories or people spotting wild animals and assuming they were legendary beasts from ancient folklore. But that doesn't explain where the folklore originated. Were ancient Chinese writers making the same mistake as countless villagers misidentifying bears and monkeys? Anthropologists dug deeper into the earliest reported sightings of the Yeren. And researchers realized they might have been the result of a different type of mistaken identity. Some of the earliest references to the Yeren showed up in writings from around 300 BCE. Historians have noted that another major cultural event happened in China around this time. This was when Greek explorers first arrived in the country. In the year 329 BCE, the Greek conqueror Alexander the Great established a walled city called Alexandria Eshk in what is now Tajikistan on China's western border. The people living there were ethnically Greek, and the city maintained its Greek culture for hundreds of years. Ancient Chinese texts from the period mention this walled city occupied by people they referred to as Great Ionians. These Ionians didn't look like anybody the Chinese had seen before. They had light colored skin, blue eyes, lots of body hair, and most notably, long, bushy beards. Anthropologists now believe that the ancient legends of the Yeren were rooted in cultural memories of encounters like these. These wild, hairy creatures with unfamiliar habits who sometimes spoke a strange language and occasionally used swords. They were just Greeks. And as the stories about these initial encounters with them were passed down from generation to generation, they became wilder, hairier, and more frightening with each new retelling. In the end, the legend of the Yeren is a uniquely human story. It's a tale of humans meeting different humans, being curious, and spending the next 2000 years making up stories to explain the experience. It's a useful reminder that sometimes you've got a lot more in common with the thing that goes bump in the night than you or might expect.
- [34:32]
Host/Interviewer
And now I'm joined by Macy and Natalie from Ghosties to dig into this case a little deeper. So if you haven't listened to Ghosties, it's one of the best shows out
- [34:41]
Vanessa Richardson
there on all things spooky and paranormal.
- [34:44]
Host/Interviewer
You've got to check it out. These two are amazing. Macy and Natalie, thank you so much for being here.
- [34:48]
Macy
Thank you so much for having us. We're very excited.
- [34:51]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yes. I.
- [34:53]
Vanessa Richardson
So I'm dying to ask.
- [34:54]
Host/Interviewer
Have you guys ever seen something you couldn't explain? You. You. Okay, you live in this world. Every week on Ghosties, you've covered everything from shadow figures to possessions to, as you said before in the intro, Bigfoot. You read listener encounters constantly, which I love because there's a lot of community, a lot of, you know, interaction with, with listeners, people writing in with things they saw, things they heard, things that followed them home. So I want to know about you guys.
- [35:19]
Vanessa Richardson
Have either of you ever had a
- [35:20]
Host/Interviewer
moment, like, out in nature, in the woods, in a house, anywhere where you saw or heard something and genuinely couldn't
- [35:27]
Vanessa Richardson
just not explain it?
- [35:28]
Host/Interviewer
And did that moment change how approach all this?
- [35:31]
Natalie
So because yours is scarier than mine, I'll go first. So we, we are famously anti. Outside. We. We don't go into the woods or outside in general. So nothing, nothing in the woods like a Bigfoot or Cryptid thing. At least that I know of.
- [35:49]
Macy
Yes, but we did grow up in the woods. We just stayed indoors.
- [35:51]
Natalie
We were just inside.
- [35:52]
Macy
I love that.
- [35:54]
Natalie
But the only thing I ever experienced was a shadow figure thing, I guess if you want to call it. I was probably about 7 or 8, and we, us, me, Macy and our other sister, Kayla, were in this basketball camp at this high school when we were in elementary. And I had went to the bathroom just by myself down the hallway away from the gym. And I got this, like, sinking feeling while I was in there. And I was like, something's not right. I'm suddenly not alone anymore and I feel unsafe. And I couldn't identify it at the time. Like, as a younger kid, I was just like, I'm scared. I need to go. So I, like, bolt out of the bathroom and I'm like, running for life for no reason. And then I turned around and I saw, like, this just big, misty, black, shadowy thing following me. And I was like. And I was horrified. And I ran into the gym. And I remember this part specifically because I was even more horrified because I went into the boys gym instead of where all the girls were. And it was. They were doing, like, shirts and skins. And so I was just like, triple terrified of everything. And that's the only like. Like, scary paranormal thing I've ever seen. But Macy's is much more horrifying.
- [37:00]
Macy
Wow, that's.
- [37:04]
Narrator
I've never actually seen anything.
- [37:05]
Macy
And I go looking at most of my encounters, I guess if you could call them that. It's kind of like what Natalie said. It's more of a feeling. You just. It's like this. These instincts. Almost there. Your hackles are up and you just feel something is wrong, you know? The only thing that really ever truly scared me, scared me was late one night, I was falling asleep, just. Just drifting off into sleep. And I heard knocking coming from under my bed.
- [37:31]
Host/Interviewer
Oh.
- [37:31]
Macy
And I sat up and I thought maybe I was dreaming or maybe it was my boyfriend who lived there at the time. But I just laid back down and tried to ignore it. And then I heard it again. It was three distinct, like, boom, boom, boom. Knocks from beneath me. And so I sat up and I told my boyfriend. I was like, jake, cut it out. I'm trying to go to sleep. Stop trying to prank me. It was very weird, but it happened several more times. And finally I got up and I was upset and I looked under the bed to try and prove that it was him, but I couldn't see anything. So I called him on the phone and he was outside, and I was like, oh, no. And it just. That sinking feeling crept in. Oh, horrifying.
- [38:09]
Host/Interviewer
That is terrifying. And both of your stories are terrifying. And the thing that gets me is that feeling, like you said, when the hair on your neck stands up, and it's just that gut feeling that something is wrong, something is off. That's so crazy.
- [38:22]
Vanessa Richardson
So how is.
- [38:23]
Host/Interviewer
Has hosting ghosties and hearing hundreds of
- [38:26]
Vanessa Richardson
listener stories shifted what you're willing to accept as possible?
- [38:30]
Host/Interviewer
Like, has it. Has it made you more aware? Are you more willing to accept it, like, that it's real? How do you feel about that?
- [38:37]
Macy
I think having our own experiences and reading, like you said, so many other people's experiences, I'm less likely to dismiss some of the more outlandish things, because when I think back to my experience, I'm like, well, that sounds weird. Like, no one was under my bed. How could there be knocking? But I know what I heard. And so whether it was maybe like a hypnagogic hallucination or if it was something we don't understand yet, it makes me not immediately go skeptical.
- [39:06]
Vanessa Richardson
I think.
- [39:06]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah.
- [39:07]
Natalie
Yeah. Especially for me, because I'm. Even now, even after the pot, I'm still skeptical sometimes. But hearing from our listeners and hearing the way they're like, oh, my gosh, like, listening to this and hearing y' all talk about it makes me feel less crazy. And I kind of have, like, resonated with that. And like, Macy was saying, like, the more outlandish things, I'm like, you know, maybe, like, it could be now, because before I'd be like, be for real. Like, that's not real, but it's kind of. It's kind of sunk in a little bit for me.
- [39:33]
Host/Interviewer
Definitely.
- [39:34]
Natalie
Yeah.
- [39:34]
Macy
And even hearing some. Some people will have very similar experiences from totally different walks of life, totally different areas in the world. And. And seeing that they're having very. Something very similar. Kind of like, with the year in English, the Bigfoot thing, all of these people from all over are having very similar encounters. It's harder, in my opinion, to refute sometimes.
- [39:54]
Vanessa Richardson
Absolutely.
- [39:55]
Sponsor Voice
That.
- [39:55]
Host/Interviewer
That actually is really fascinating because you've studied all the different types of cryptids, like the Bigfoot and the Aaron and the.
- [40:01]
Vanessa Richardson
You know, it's so wild that the evidence.
- [40:04]
Host/Interviewer
This is where we come back to, like, you know, you get that gut feeling. But then you also looked for evidence, right? Like, Natalie, you were looking for this figure.
- [40:10]
Carter Roy
What?
- [40:11]
Host/Interviewer
What is it? And. And Macy looked under the bed to see what was it? Was it my boyfriend Was it. So, what, the hair samples, okay, for this particular story, Footprint casts, preserved paws, the.
- [40:22]
Macy
The.
- [40:22]
Host/Interviewer
The expeditions backed by the government. But then piece by piece, it all falls apart. So, like, they figured out the hair belongs to Acero and the footprints are overlapping bear tracks. Like, there's an explanation for everything. I feel like we're also kind of like. I think about, like, UFOs and stuff too. Like, they're always. There's always like an explanation. Right. The pause and from a macaque. And some of the most famous eyewitnesses made their stories up. So you guys, again, you hear all these accounts constantly. Your listeners send you their encounters. So you. I feel like you've probably developed an instinct for this. So when they tell. Someone tells you they saw something, what. What is it that makes you lean toward believing them? And specifically for this story? Like, after hearing how the urine evidence unraveled, but also knowing that so many different, you know, the Bigfoot things, things in different areas.
- [41:09]
Vanessa Richardson
What. How does this.
- [41:11]
Host/Interviewer
Do you think you're more skeptical of cryptid sightings in general, or does it kind of not change how you feel knowing this? It's kind of a tricky question because there's so much evidence. Like, it's so.
- [41:21]
Natalie
Yes. So I don't know. For me, like, I am always going to be skeptical first, which. We've talked about this before. Like, on the pod, whenever we hear a noise in the house, I'm like, oh, my God, it's the killer. And then Macy's like, okay, so I'm always gonna think, like, skeptical or, like, logical. But for me, what makes something like this credible is one, like, the conviction that the person has while telling you the story. Like how, like, if they truly are believing it and. Or like, probably more so when someone sees this or experiences this and is like, trying to disprove it, and they're like, no, I didn't see that. That's crazy. No, that that didn't happen. Or, oh, it could be this. But there's not. They don't find an explanation. I'm like, maybe that's real. And I think.
- [42:03]
Macy
I think insistence, too. I know some of these stories were made up, which is unfortunate when people are truly actually trying to get to the bottom of something. Yeah, but the insistence, and I mean, some of these people are ridiculed, especially today online by their experiences. And if they stick by what they saw, they're. They're not getting anything out of it. And I think that kind of gives more credibility in my mind anyway, the evidence part it again, makes me so sad when we find that it's just overlapping bear prints, you know? Very frustrating.
- [42:37]
Host/Interviewer
Definitely.
- [42:38]
Macy
Go ahead.
- [42:38]
Narrator
Sorry.
- [42:39]
Host/Interviewer
No, I was gonna say very, very frustrating, for sure. And like. But I feel like a buzzkill also, like, saying, well, that was made up. This was what that was. But also, like, when you.
- [42:46]
Vanessa Richardson
I love that you said that.
- [42:47]
Host/Interviewer
Like, when people have conviction and they stick to their story and they're like, no, this is what I saw, and they have nothing to gain out of it. That's. That's a huge yes. Yeah, that's a big. For me too. I feel the same way, you guys.
- [42:58]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [42:59]
Macy
And even if there is. If it is, like, something that we can prove, like maybe it is a large macaque of some kind.
- [43:07]
Host/Interviewer
Right.
- [43:08]
Macy
Or something.
- [43:08]
Natalie
I always just amazed thing.
- [43:10]
Macy
What if.
- [43:11]
Sponsor Voice
Right.
- [43:12]
Natalie
Like, I just like to keep it fun, you know, why not?
- [43:16]
Host/Interviewer
Yeah. Keep an open door.
- [43:17]
Natalie
Bigfoot.
- [43:17]
Host/Interviewer
Exactly.
- [43:18]
Narrator
Exactly.
- [43:19]
Macy
I also believe that they believe they saw something.
- [43:22]
Host/Interviewer
Yes.
- [43:23]
Sponsor Voice
Whether.
- [43:24]
Macy
Whether we can prove that it is a yarn or a Bigfoot or a spirit of some kind. They believe that they experience something. And I think, yeah, there's something there anyway.
- [43:34]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [43:34]
Host/Interviewer
I love that. It's so true. And it's. It's also. I don't know, there's something about a campfire. Like that feeling of telling stories around the campfire. Like, I just love it. That's what your. Your show is. What I think of when I. When I listen to you guys is that spooky stories. I love it.
- [43:47]
Macy
That's what we wanted. The vibe we wanted. I love that.
- [43:50]
Host/Interviewer
Oh, yeah.
- [43:51]
Macy
That others are sharing that with us.
- [43:52]
Host/Interviewer
Totally nailed it. Yes. Now, I'm curious now, knowing that you guys are not outdoorsy. Now, I learned this today, hearing about. After hearing talking about the Yeren, the remote mountains, the bamboo forest, the Chinese villagers who swear they saw something. Okay. Let's say someone hands you an unlimited budget and just says, okay, pick one Cryptid anywhere in the world and go find it. Where are you guys heading?
- [44:18]
Vanessa Richardson
Hubei province.
- [44:19]
Host/Interviewer
You gonna go Pacific Northwest looking for Bigfoot? Where do you guys find a yeti in the hill?
- [44:23]
Macy
I would probably. I would probably go Bigfoot. Pacific Northwest. I don't know that I believe in Bigfoot.
- [44:30]
Natalie
And when we did, I do. What's crazy is there have been things that Macy's brought to me, and all the listeners are like, oh, my God, it's so real. And I'm like, like, no. But with Bigfoot, I'm like, I'm all in. And Macy's like, we're never on the same belief for Cryptid things.
- [44:47]
Macy
I feel like you, Vanessa, is that buzzkill moment where I'm going through and I'm explaining, I'm building Natalie up. She's like, oh, yeah, definitely. And then I'm like, but no, but it's this.
- [44:56]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [44:57]
Natalie
Yes, I love that.
- [44:58]
Macy
Exactly.
- [44:59]
Host/Interviewer
But I love. I love that about you guys because it makes it more interesting because I think everybody has that. Those dual sides. Like, you're skeptical, but you believe, want to believe, and you're, you know, that's so interesting.
- [45:09]
Macy
Yes. And with Bigfoot, I want to believe. I think it would be just the experience of looking for Bigfoot would be just a joy with other people, like hunting through the woods, you know, get down this big track over here. I think that would be a blast. So whether we found something or not, I think that's where I would go for me.
- [45:27]
Natalie
Like, have you ever heard of Mothman?
- [45:29]
Host/Interviewer
Yes, of course.
- [45:32]
Macy
I just listened to their episode on Mothman.
- [45:34]
Natalie
I think Mothman would be mine. As weird as it is, I. Okay. And the strangest little tidbit that really makes me say, like, okay, I'd go Mothman is why do we have a statue over there? Like, why is there a cool statue of Mothman? Like, there has to be some kind of validity or just some real weird people up there. And I want to go, right.
- [45:56]
Host/Interviewer
Oh, I'd be hard pressed to know which one of you I'd go with, because I want to go do both of those things. So that's really cool. Oh, my gosh. That is wild. And do you think either of you think that definitive proof will ever be found for any of these creatures, or is it just going to be a mystery forever and the stories live on?
- [46:14]
Macy
I would like to think if. If there is something out there, we'll find it eventually. I. I don't think things can stay mystery forever. I think eventually we will come up with some kind of scientific way to prove, Disprove or disprove that of the existence. But I think the mystery is. Is part of the whimsy. It's the fun part, too. So I honestly, I was thinking about this, and I think I'd be a little bit disappointed if we did find. Oh, it's just this, like, you know, evolution of the Gigantopathecus or something. Like, I'd be like, aw, but right. What if he's like, what if he's like some kind of interdimensional being? Like, that's more fun to, you know, bounce around anyway, I also just as
- [46:55]
Natalie
much as I say, like, oh, I want to find a Bigfoot, I want to find Mothman, I don't. I don't want us to find it. I don't want humans. I don't want us to mess with it. Like, let the legend be. Let it be fun. And because. Because if it is real, which I believe Bigfoot is real.
- [47:08]
Sponsor Voice
Yeah.
- [47:09]
Natalie
I feel like humans just need to leave it alone. We'll just let it be. And so I. I think we just showed it.
- [47:15]
Vanessa Richardson
I love that.
- [47:15]
Natalie
Or we can keep looking.
- [47:16]
Vanessa Richardson
Yes, keep looking. Keep that mystery alive. And it's so true. Because, you know, humans just kind of
- [47:21]
Host/Interviewer
tend to mess things up, like, with anything. I think the same thing. That's a really good point, actually. I've never actually thought about that, about it, like, that. It's true. The mystery is so good. Let them live. Live and let Bigfoot live and Yaron and all of them.
- [47:33]
Macy
I knew that on a sticker.
- [47:35]
Natalie
Yeah, we need a sticker for them, right?
- [47:37]
Host/Interviewer
I love that so much.
- [47:38]
Vanessa Richardson
Anything else you guys want to, you
- [47:40]
Host/Interviewer
know, share about, about Cryptids or any of these incredible, beautiful stories before we sign off?
- [47:47]
Natalie
I'm.
- [47:48]
Macy
I love a good Cryptid story. I love a good mystery, but I think where my part really lies is in the ghostly aspect of the paranormal. Is all of the, like, strange, other realm type things.
- [48:02]
Natalie
Same for me, I think, because it does go back to, like, what you're saying. Like, humans will just mess it up. So, like the Cryptids, I like to keep them at an arm's length. I like to say, like, yes, they are, but let's leave them alone. But like, the ghostly and the demon and the paranormal and the scary, I think that's what really draws me in. And so, like, after we've done a few episodes of Cryptids and like, Macy likes to do, like, fairies, like all the, like, the fun whimsy. I'm like, okay, but let's get scared. Let's get into something that there's no tangible. Like, we're not gonna see and be able to touch a ghost, you know, or we'll see it, but we can't touch it. Like, if, like, Bigfoot's a thing, a ghost is like, what is it? We don't know.
- [48:37]
Macy
So I would love to see. I know at UVA they have the dots program, which is the. I think it's the division of, oh, perceptual something where they basically, they were using science and the scientific method to look into some of the. More like parapsychology type things like. Oh, what's the word? Just escaped me like in, in near death experiences and like on body experiences. They're looking into that and I think I would love to see in a, in a college and university and academic setting.
- [49:08]
Sponsor Voice
Yes.
- [49:09]
Macy
A like school of Bigfoot where we go like crypt and astrology. I think that would be so fun.
- [49:15]
Vanessa Richardson
That is incredible.
- [49:16]
Host/Interviewer
What an amazing thought, like for science and you know, culture and all of.
- [49:20]
Vanessa Richardson
Yeah, cryptozology.
- [49:21]
Host/Interviewer
That's so interesting. I've again, that's never, I've never thought of that. You know, I'm sure there's a college out there that has that as a, as a class, but that's so fascinating, right? Oh, I love that so much. You guys are so fun to watch and so interesting and, and so if today's conversation has you listener wanting more, you need to check out Ghosties.
- [49:42]
Vanessa Richardson
Every Monday and Thursday, Macy and Natalie dive into everything.
- [49:45]
Host/Interviewer
Paranormal, ghosts, cryptids.
- [49:48]
Vanessa Richardson
Listener encounters the unexplained and all while
- [49:51]
Host/Interviewer
drinking a cup of tea. I love that they recently did an incredible two part series on Bigfoot which we just kind of touched on that pairs perfectly with today's episode. You might want to go check that out and find them wherever you listen to podcasts and on YouTube. Thank you so much Macy and Natalie for being here today. It was so much fun talking to you.
- [50:09]
Macy
Yes, it was so much fun.
- [50:10]
Natalie
Yes. Thank you so much.
- [50:11]
Macy
Thanks for having us. And I love your podcast so it was a joy fans to see it live.
- [50:15]
Sponsor Voice
Same.
- [50:16]
Vanessa Richardson
Thank you so much.
- [50:17]
Jay Uso
Foreign.
- [50:22]
Vanessa Richardson
Thanks so much for listening. I'm Vanessa Richardson and this is Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes. Come back next time. We'll hear another story about the real people at the center of the world's most notorious cults, conspiracies and criminal acts. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, rimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes. Wherever you get your podcasts, your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your Conspiracy Theories, Cults and crimes listening experience, subscribe to Crime House. Plus you'll get every episode of this show and and the rest of the Crime House lineup ad free and early plus at least two bonus episodes every month. To join go to crimehouseplus.com or if you listen on Apple Podcasts tap. Try free at the top of the Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes show page. Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson, and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Natalie Pertzofsky, Lori Marinelli, Alyssa Fox, Truman Capps, Sheila Patterson, Kaylee Pine, and Michael Langsner. Thank you for listening.