Vanessa Richardson (3:19)

And as always, we'll be asking the question, what makes a killer?

Dr. Tristan Engels (3:27)

Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids.

Commercial Voice 1 (3:36)

We only met a month ago, Angie.

Vanessa Richardson (3:38)

The one you trust to find the.

Commercial Voice 1 (3:39)

Ones you trust, Find pros for all.

Vanessa Richardson (3:40)

Your home projects@angie.com a year from today.

Commercial Voice 2 (3:45)

What would your dream private practice look like? Would you spend less time chasing claims or only working with clients who value your skill set? What if you had a network to reach out to for questions or free continuing education? What if you had more time for yourself? ALMA empowers you to confidently accept insurance backed by an all in one EHR that simplifies scheduling, documentation and day to day practice operations. With a network of engaged providers and free CE resources, ALMA makes it easy for you to build the practice of your dreams on your terms. You ALMA believes that when therapists get the support they need, mental health care gets better for everyone. Learn more about alma@helloalma.com get started. Your dream practice is closer than you think. Get started now@helloalma.com get started.

Vanessa Richardson (4:44)

Long before Special Agent Mark Steven Putnam was running down criminals, he was a kid chasing a soccer ball. Mark was born on July 4, 1959 in Connecticut to his father Walter, a truck driver for Sears department store and his stay at home mother Barbara. Growing up in a middle class home with three younger siblings, Mark learned early that nothing in life came for free. Whatever he wanted, he would have to work for it. That lesson stuck with him and sparked a competitive edge, one that never really faded and played well alongside his natural athleticism. When Mark was a child, his world was consumed by sports, especially soccer. What started as a fun pastime quickly grew into a fierce sense of competitiveness. His hard work and sheer talent impressed everyone who watched him play. Eventually, Mark's skills on the field earned him a scholarship to a college prep high school. By his senior year, he worked his way up to team captain. Mark was a standout, and not just because of his physical abilities. He brought a psychological edge to his game too. He knew that to win, he had to understand who he was up against. So he studied his opponents and learned their weaknesses. To Mark, it was more than a game. He would do anything necessary to win.

Dr. Tristan Engels (6:06)

So for some people, emphasis on some competitive sports, especially during formative years like this, can become a core part of their identity. In those cases, they can internalize at a very young age that performance starts to equal worth and success then becomes the source of validation and Losing can feel threatening. That environment can teach someone to constantly assess weakness and stay one step ahead. Not just to win, but to protect that sense of self. And when winning becomes everything, there's a real risk of developing a worldview where outcomes matter more than processes or boundaries. This doesn't mean that competitive sports caused this behavior, but they can, in some cases, reinforce a belief system where self esteem is tied to control, superiority, and never being content with losing.

Vanessa Richardson (6:57)

I'm curious. What does it say about Mark that he took things a step further and analyzed his opponent's weaknesses? And what kinds of life lessons could he have gained from this game winning strategy?

Dr. Tristan Engels (7:08)

So I want to normalize this to some degree, because in competitive sports, it's not uncommon to study your opponents and identify weaknesses and anticipate their moves. That's coaching and strategy in a nutshell. It's how teams prepare and how athletes improve and how people learn discipline, focus, and resilience. So there's nothing inherently unhealthy about that. Where it becomes concerning is when the mindset stops being situational and starts becoming more global. So if the strategy used on the field is generalized to everyday life, it can reflect an internalized belief that success comes through dominance and exploitation. So at that point, the goal is no longer healthy competition, it's control. And that shift is where harm to others comes can occur.

Vanessa Richardson (7:55)

Even though Mark's analytical skills made him a star player, he didn't plan to pursue soccer as a career. In fact, he wanted to put those skills to use toward a completely different life goal. Working for the FBI. After graduating from high school, soccer opened the door for Mark to pursue that dream. He went on to play for the University of Tampa in Florida, where he majored in criminology. From the time Mark took his very first course, he was hooked. His studies gave him an early look into the minds of the criminals he hoped to chase one day and a better understanding of how the justice system actually worked from the inside. He earned solid grades, but he wasn't quite as brilliant in the classroom as he was on the soccer field. However, that changed during his sophomore year. That year, Mark's dad died of lung cancer. The loss hit him hard, but he kept his feelings bottled up. He didn't want anything to derail him. Instead, Mark used his pain to push himself even harder. He threw himself deeper into school soccer and becoming the person he thought his dad would have been most proud of. By the time he graduated from college around the spring of 1982, Mark's grades were pretty impressive. However, he still had a long way to go. Becoming a federal agent required a rigorous entrance exam. Although he was mentally prepared, he struggled with the physical aspect of the exam because of a shoulder injury from soccer. So mark shifted gears, and instead of trying to get into the FBI academy right out of college, he took a clerical job. He worked nights and weekends as a switchboard operator at an FBI office in new haven, Connecticut. It wasn't exactly glamorous work, and it definitely wasn't the job he dreamed of, but it was a foot in the door for someone as competitive as mark. That was all he needed. After all, he was surrounded by real agents who he could learn from.

Dr. Tristan Engels (9:52)

So, yeah, on the one hand, I think for Mark, taking a clerical job could feel bruising to the ego. When a person's identity is closely tied to competence and performance, Stepping into a role that feels, quote, beneath their abilities can trigger frustration, impatience, or even resentment. It can also feel like a stall or worse, like he's being overlooked. But at the same time, like said, this environment was adjacent to what he wanted. He was now inside the world he wanted to belong to. So for Mark, this environment likely felt familiar also in a very specific way. In competitive sports, he learned to win by studying opponents. Being surrounded by agents while not yet being one of them could have placed him back into a competitive framework. These weren't just co workers. They were people who had already achieved what he wanted. And now he could study them. He could watch how they spoke, how they carried authority, how they navigated. Navigated power, hierarchy, and respect. So it was likely both motivating and frustrating for someone like mark.

Vanessa Richardson (10:55)

Well, Mark was always watching the agents around him, like you said, studying them the same way he once studied his soccer opponents. But even with all that drive he had, Whenever he told people that he hoped to carry a badge himself one day, they always told him the same thing. That going from desk jockey to special agent rarely ever happened. Mark knew that if he was going to beat the odds, he couldn't do it on his own. He needed support, and he found the perfect partner. One night in 1982, shortly before Mark started his job as a clerk, his mother, Barbara, met a young woman his age while she was out to dinner. Her name was Kathy, and Barbara thought she and Mark would be perfect together. She introduced them, and pretty soon, Mark and Kathy were dating. Kathy was from a wealthy family, but she knew Mark didn't want anything handed to him. Instead, she pushed him to work toward his goals. She was exactly the kind of partner he needed. Mark wanted Kathy by His side for the rest of his life. By the spring of 1984, they were married, and a year later, they welcomed a daughter named Danielle. Their little family was growing, and Mark couldn't have been happier. But Mark wouldn't let domestic bliss distract him from his career goals. In 1986, when Danielle was about 2 years old, Mark decided it was finally time for him to take the FBI academy entrance exam. After a grueling physical and mental examination, he got an acceptance letter in the mail. Mark and Kathy were ecstatic. However, the excitement was short lived. The very next day, Mark was informed that the letter had been sent to him in error. He didn't actually get in. It turned out that the FBI had learned about his old shoulder injury, which disqualified him. Mark was crushed, but Kathie wouldn't stand for it. So she called the person who'd informed Mark of his rejection and laid out all of his qualifications. She said she'd seen FBI agents in much worse shape than Mark and that he deserved a chance to prove himself. To Mark's surprise, he it worked. The FBI agreed to let him train, and a few months later, he graduated from the FBI academy. Mark was officially named a rookie special agent. He'd finally achieved the dream he'd been chasing his whole life.

Dr. Tristan Engels (13:19)

Obviously, this was a major turning point for Mark. He finally achieved what he'd been working toward his whole life. And anyone in his position would feel validated and elated. But what really stands out to me are two things. First, this was another push pull experience with authority. He was accepted, then rejected, then re accepted only after his wife intervened and advocated on his behalf. And psychologically, that can reinforce a belief that rules are flexible if you push hard enough and that setbacks are negotiable. And when you layer that onto his background in competitive sports and his identity with that, where winning and persistence and overcoming obstacles may have been central to that identity, you can see how this could subtly shift how someone relates to limits and authority. Especially if he later steps into a position of power like the FBI and he equates losing with threat or failure, that combination can become dangerous. That's often when power is misused. I also wonder how he experienced his wife stepping in. Some might find that emasculating, but Mark may have experienced that very differently. Almost like a coach challenging a referee's bad call and winning in that framing the intervention that she did doesn't necessarily undermine him. It just confirms that the system can be pressured, it can be appealed and ultimately bent in his favor. Again, it's Reinforcing an internal belief that's not realistic of the real world.

Vanessa Richardson (14:51)

When someone like Mark finally achieves this lifelong dream, does that create an internal pressure to maintain that ideal? And also when a dream is achieved, can that come with its own challenges, like fear of losing that?

Dr. Tristan Engels (15:05)

Absolutely. I think most people can relate to this. Accomplishing something you've been striving toward your whole life is very validating. But for many, that validation can be quickly replaced by fear once that dream is realized. That's self protection. Success can activate a fear of loss. So instead of asking like, how do I grow in this role? The internal question for some becomes, how do I make sure I don't lose this? And when that shift happens, people can lose sight of what got them there in the first place and start operating from fear instead of purpose. And tragically, that can ultimately distract them just enough to engineer the very outcome they're trying to avoid.

Vanessa Richardson (15:45)

After graduating from the FBI Academy, Mark couldn't wait to receive his first assignment. All of his work had paid off, and he was finally going to prove to himself that he deserved to wear the badge. But that excitement faded as soon as he got his first orders. Mark learned that he wasn't being sent to an exciting big city where he could take down the nation's top criminals. Instead, he and Kathy were headed to a small, isolated mountain town neither of them had ever heard of. Pikeville, Kentucky. Pikeville was a rugged coal field community tucked deep in Appalachia. And while the hills were pretty, life there was extremely different from anything they'd ever known. Still, Mark was a rookie, so he didn't have any other options. Fortunately, he got assigned to an important case. Mark was sent to Pikeville to investigate a local bank robber named Carl Cat Eyes Locker Lockhart, who'd earned his nickname for his striking green eyes and handsome features. Lockhart had recently been released from prison on bank robbery charges. Soon after, similar hits began popping up across the region. The FBI suspected Cat Eyes was back to his old ways, and it was Mark's job to find out. While it certainly wasn't the biggest case the Bureau had on its books, Mark was eager to make a name for himself. If he could nab someone as slippery as Cat Eyes Lockhart, it would open up all kinds of doors in his career. But Mark had no way of knowing that the deeper he dove into the criminal underworld, the more the lines would start to blur. And eventually he'd make a fatal error.

Commercial Voice 3 (17:30)

Do you have $10,000 or more in credit card debt? Maybe you're even barely getting by by making minimum payments. With credit card debt hitting record highs, National Debt Relief offers real debt relief solutions for people struggling to keep up. These options may reduce a large portion of credit card debt for those who qualify. You don't need to declare bankruptcy and you may be able to pay back less than you owe regardless of your credit. National Debt Relief has already reduced the credit card debt for more than 550,000 consumers. So don't wait if you owe 10, 20, or even hundreds of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, you can now take advantage of this financial debt relief as the cost of living increases. To find out how much you could save, Visit National Debt Relief.com that's NationalDebtRelief.com.

Commercial Voice 1 (18:17)

My day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink, then straight to the gym pre K pickup back home to meal prep time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius. Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits. I'm ready. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold, refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now@celsius.com.

Vanessa Richardson (18:41)

In February of 1987, 27 year old Mark Putnam, his wife Kathy, and their young daughter Danielle headed to Pikeville, Kentucky on Mark's first FBI assignment. His job was to help catch a bank robber named Carl Cat Eyes Lockhart. Even though Mark was excited to get his hands dirty, he found his new surroundings disappointing, to say the least. Pikeville was deep in the mountains and hours from the nearest major field office, the FBI office. There was a single room with two agents and zero support staff. Sometimes Kathy stepped in to answer calls and take messages from Mark. But even though the operation was bare bones, Pikeville did come with an upside. Mark's superiors told him that the Lockhart case could be a huge opportunity for someone as young and hungry as Mark was. However, once Mark got settled in, he realized his competitive nature wasn't the only reason he'd been selected for the job. Apparently, the Pikeville office was a known disaster. It was disorganized, behind on paperwork, and and barely functioning. Even though Mark was an agent, the office needed someone with clerical experience to help straighten the place up, and Mark fit the bill.

Dr. Tristan Engels (19:58)

So in this scenario, there's seemingly a mismatch between how Mark likely sees himself, which is competent, chosen, capable, and how he's being valued or treated. So on the surface, he's still an FBI agent, which is validating for him. And that title alone is affirming, especially when it comes to asserting power. But underneath that there's likely a sense of being overlooked or even, even misread. Instead of feeling selected for who he is, he may have felt like he was being used to fulfill a role that was once again, according to him, or at least to his belief, beneath him. And that can chip away at confidence, and it can create insecurity or even resentment. This could have felt like a demotion, especially when his start with the FBI began with his wife advocating on his behalf and him having to prove himself first beyond what is typical. Over time, that kind of internal tension can lead someone to overcompensate or to prove themselves in ways that aren't always healthy.

Vanessa Richardson (20:54)

Can being in a new environment, can this affect how someone handles stress, especially when they're already feeling isolated?

Dr. Tristan Engels (21:01)

Yes, very much so. A new environment can significantly amplify stress, especially when someone is already feeling isolated or uncertain. And in Mark's case, like you mentioned, there are multiple new environments he was adjusting to. A new home, a new city, and new starting an entirely new job and career. And it's one he's worked his whole life to get. So even highly capable people can feel destabilized when they don't yet understand the norms of that job, the hierarchy, or even how they're being evaluated on the job. And that kind of uncertainty alone keeps the nervous system on high alert, especially when it's compounded by multiple different environments. So this is where coping styles really matter. Some people adapt by seeking connection or support within their communities, within their, you know, environments at work. Others cope by tightening their grip, like working harder, suppressing vulnerability, or even being more vigilant in interpreting neutral experiences as threats or even slights. It varies by person. But the key point is that new environments don't just add stress. They do, but they can fundamentally change how stress is processed and even managed, especially if someone lacks the skills to cope effectively.

Vanessa Richardson (22:14)

Even though Mark was disappointed to learn why he'd been sent to Pikeville, he was still willing to prove himself. So when a woman called with a tip shortly after he arrived, Mark was quick to jump on it. The woman said she thought a man who was living with her had robbed a Pikeville bank recently. Mark felt like he'd hit the jackpot. And for a moment, he thought he might be able to solve the case before he even finished unpacking. But that high didn't last long. When Mark followed up on the lead, he learned that the woman's husband had recently filed for divorce, and she was simply looking to get back at him. It was a Valuable lesson for Mark. He realized he couldn't take everyone in Pikeville at their word. If he wanted to navigate this unfamiliar terrain, he needed someone to show him the ropes. He found that mentorship in a local part time sheriff's deputy named Burt Hatfield. Bert liked Mark immediately, mostly because Mark didn't act like he was too good for the locals. Bert showed him how life in the mountains worked, like how to drive the winding roads. But most importantly, Burt taught Mark how to get reliable information. According to Burt, there were plenty of willing informants in Pikeville. After all, it was a poor community, so a lot of people were willing to talk for the right price. The FBI had a much larger budget for this kind of thing than the local authorities did, so Burt thought Mark had a good shot. And when it came to the Cat Eyes case, Burt had just the person in mind. He introduced mark to 25 year old Susan Smith. Bert and Susan had grown up together. Like many others, Susan grew up poor, without many options in life. She dropped out of school and married a drug dealer named Kenneth when she was just 15. They eventually divorced, but continued to live in the same house together with their children. Now and then, Kenneth's shady acquaintances rented out their spare room. Burt suspected that one of those people was Cat Eyes himself and that he was currently living under Susan's roof. Mark arranged to meet with her at a local restaurant. Susan didn't reveal much during that conversation, but Mark could tell she wanted to. She just seemed hesitant. So before they left, he pulled out a stack of cash and told her there was more where that came from if she could help him him catch Cat Eyes Lockhart. From that point on, Susan started meeting with Mark more frequently. She'd go to his office to talk. At first it seemed like she just wanted to get to know him better, maybe to see if she could really trust him. But soon she started asking him questions about his home life, including what Kathy looked like, what color hair she had, and if she had a good body. Mark figured Susan was just a flirtatious person, so he made her feel welcome and found polite ways to answer her questions. He kept things professional and always steered the conversation back to the case. Eventually, it paid off. Susan gave him the exact information he needed. She confirmed that Cat Eyes was living in her house.

Dr. Tristan Engels (25:25)

This is actually incredibly alarming to me, and I want to be clear that this reaction comes from both my training and my experience working among law enforcement in correctional settings or in communities. I was explicitly trained on this dynamic. You do not reveal personal information in professional relationships. In forensic, correctional or law enforcement settings, I have seen so many people get terminated because of this very thing. There is an inherent power imbalance between Mark and Susan. He is the federal agent, she is the civilian informant. That alone requires firm, non negotiable boundaries. Answering personal questions crosses into over familiarity. And over familiarity is one of the most common ways people in his position lose their jobs. It's also one of the easiest ways to become compromised. In corrections, we're taught to recognize the anatomy of a setup early because it rarely starts with something dramatic. It starts small with personal disclosures just like this, like shared details or even sharing a newspaper. But the moment you blur that line even slightly, you've created vulnerability. And once there's vulnerability, there's leverage. At that point, it becomes about self protection. People start doing more to maintain secrecy, to preserve their role and to avoid consequences. That's how someone gets pulled deeper and deeper into something they should have stepped away from early on. So the appropriate response here is very clear. Mark should not have answered those questions. He should have documented Susan's limit testing behavior, informed a supervisor, or asked to be removed from the case entirely. I was always taught by law enforcement, in fact, and this was a yearly training that we were required to take, that it's better to tell on yourself, it's better to get ahead of it. It's how you protect yourself, the investigation, your job, and the integrity of your role and the institution. And what makes this especially concerning is how much this job means to Mark. It's not just work for him, it's his identity. And like we talked about, the fear of losing this job, not because of financial reasons for him, but because of ident identity may be overriding his judgment here. And it seems that his need to prove himself in his role is narrowing his reasoning too. Also, in law enforcement and corrections, minimizing flirtation like this is a red flag. It's often the first sign that someone is losing objectivity. When you start explaining away boundary testing instead of addressing it, you've already stepped into dangerous territory. He's clearly susceptible to manipulation. He was already easily duped by a wife seeking revenge. Now this. He's very green and he's very inexperienced, and it shows.

Vanessa Richardson (28:12)

Mark was in his own way dealing with this situation. It's possible he was figuring out how to handle things as he went along. And soon he got the information he was looking for. In September of 1987, a little over seven months after Mark arrived in Pikeville, Susan told him that Cat Eyes had come home. One day carrying a bag bag filled with sawed off shotguns and ski masks. She also said she'd heard him talking about hitting First National bank, which was 15 miles south of Pikeville. It was the kind of tip any agent would dream about. And best of all, Susan was right about everything. Later that same month, Cat Eyes walked into the exact bank Susan had mentioned, wearing a ski mask, carrying a gun and demanding the tellers fill a pillowcase with cash. One of the tellers slipped a dye pack in which exploded during his getaway. After the employees called 911, local police found a white van nearby that was filled with money that was stained bright red. However, Cat Eyes had managed to get away, for now at least. Mark followed up with every witness and learned that someone had seen Cateyes ditch his van near a creek. So he put surveillance around Susan's home to see if Cateyes would return. He watched and waited, but the bank robber didn't show up. However, about a week later, Cat Eyes returned to Pikeville. This time, he tried exchanging some of the dyed money at a different bank. The tellers wouldn't let him, and he got away again. But this time, Susan learned where he was hiding out. He was at his mother's house in West Virginia. When she told Mark, he and another officer went to the home to see if Cat Eyes was really there. And he was. They arrested him on the spot. Mark had successfully completed his first assignment with the FBI in less than eight months on the job. And he couldn't have done it without Susan.

Dr. Tristan Engels (30:11)

Mark appears wired to equate success with personal competence and dominance. That mindset works well in competitive sports, where outcomes are clean and individual effort is easier to track. But in this, he didn't out think or outmaneuver Cat Eyes on his own. He needed Susan, much like how he needed his wife Kathy to get into the academy. Without Susan's information and cooperation, the case likely wouldn't have closed. So because of her, he got the result. He gets the accolades, the reputation and the respect. At the same time, it may be threatening his self worth, causing him to ask himself, did I even really earn this? And people who struggle with that kind of dissonance often resolve it by minimizing the role of others and over crediting their own. And they may internalize a more dangerous belief that outcomes matter more than anything else. And that's a belief that might have been slowly crystallizing for some time with Mark.

Vanessa Richardson (31:10)

We know Mark is extremely competitive and eager to prove himself. What does an early career high like this do to someone like that.

Dr. Tristan Engels (31:18)

So we already talked about the validation we can experience when we accomplish a goal we've been striving hard for, and in some cases, the fear we have of losing it once we get it. This is similar to that, Only the goal post shifted. It's no longer can I do this? It becomes how do I make sure this never gets taken away? And in competitive personalities, that can reinforce urgency and even risk taking, which I think we're already seeing happening on a small scale. But the stakes are really much higher now. And because of that, the person can also become less tolerant of anything that threatens their identity. Things like criticism, failure, dependence on others, even uncertainty. And that can make them more defensive and possibly even desperate. And when I think about Mark specifically, I've never met him, I've never evaluated him. So this is obviously very just informational and educational. But if he is truly competitive, if this is his identity and he's intolerant to losing, then that can loosen moral boundaries. Again, the need to be winning or succeeding can override judgment and ethics.

Vanessa Richardson (32:23)

Well, Mark knew he couldn't have done it without Susan. For her work on the case, he paid her $5,000. That's about $14,000 today. But they still had a lot more to do Because Susan was supposed to testify against cat eyes at his trial. She was a star witness, and without her testimony, the whole case would fall apart.

Dr. Tristan Engels (32:44)

He's in too deep now. I mean, paying her personally crossed a line that he can't uncross. If she reports him, his career's over. Keeping his job now depends on keeping her satisfied. That's how compromise works psychologically. Once someone has leverage over you, their expectations just go up.

Vanessa Richardson (33:02)

Susan, for her part, was happy to keep spending time with Mark. By now, her feelings had gone beyond innocent flirtation. Over the past several months, Mark has hadn't just given her attention. He'd become her safe space. She'd started to see him as a way out of her chaotic life. She'd developed genuine feelings for him and had even told some of her close friends that she thought he felt the same way. Mark soon realized just how blurred the lines had become for Susan, because the longer she was in his life, the more comfortable she became. And eventually she became even more intimate, intertwined with Mark's life. When she and Kathy formed a friendship, Mark felt uneasy about this, but there wasn't anything he could do about it. Susan and Kathy were both in need of a friend, and he didn't want to stand in the way of that. But by sweeping his concerns under the rug, Mark opened the floodgates and welcomed in a torrent of scandal and betrayal.

Commercial Voice 1 (34:09)

Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable. Also expensive. Sell their pint sized pieces on Depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees because somewhere a dad refuses to pay full price for the clothes his kids will outgrow tomorrow and he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now. Consider consider your future growth bird budget secured. Start selling on Depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply. See website for details.

Vanessa Richardson (34:40)

What drives a person to kill? Is it uncontrollable rage? Overwhelming fear? Unbearable jealousy? Or is it something deeper? Something in the darkest corners of our psyche?

Dr. Tristan Engels (34:54)

Every Monday and Thursday, the Crime House Original Podcast Serial Killers and Murderous Minds dives deep into the minds of history's most chilling murderers. From infamous serial killers to ruthless cult leaders, deadly exes, and terrifying spree killers, I'm Dr. Tristan Ingalls, a licensed forensic psychologist. Along with Vanessa Richardson's immersive storytelling full of high stakes twists and turns, in every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds, I'll be providing expert analysis of the people involved, not just how they killed, but why.

Vanessa Richardson (35:30)

Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a crime House Studios original new episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow wherever you get your podcasts. In the fall of 1987, 27 year old Mark Putnam had just caught an elusive bank robber with help from Susan Smith. The line between agent and informant was getting blurry, and it only got trickier when Mark learned that his wife, Kathy had struck up her own friendship with the young informant. Kathy had first decided to get to know Susan because she felt bad for her. Susan was just a young woman, barely a year younger than she was stuck in a tough situation. They bonded pretty quickly, and before long they were talking on the phone at least once a week. For Mark, their blossoming friendship was too close for comfort. He hoped it would fizzle after the trial. Meanwhile, Kathy could sense that Susan had a growing fixation on Mark, but she never saw it as a threat. She trusted her husband. Plus, Mark and Kathy had something exciting to celebrate. She was pregnant with their second child, a son. Though the couple still didn't love Pikeville, they were excited to grow their family and hoped it would help them feel more at home. After all, Mark's contract required them to stay there for at least another year. By October of 1987, Mark was assigned to a new case investigating a group of criminals who stole cars to sell for parts, the previous agents had left a clerical nightmare behind. Evidence was labeled and categorized incorrectly or not at all. Again, it was something that Mark's past job experience was perfect for. His superiors expected him to clean up the mess and solve the case. As 1988 rolled around, Mark was busier than ever. And after the birth of their son, Mark Jr. Kathy was overwhelmed and lonely. Instead of making her feel more at home, she was growing to hate Pikeville more with each passing day. It put a strain on the couple's relationship. Mark started burying himself more in his work, which also meant seeing more of Susan. She regularly stopped by his office to talk and hang out and even started bringing him gifts, like new running shoes. Mark always welcomed her in. He thought she was a nice distraction from all the stress in his life. According to Mark, the more they talked, the closer they got and the more Susan learned about all the pressure Mark was under. One day, she came to him with a solution. She told Mark that she'd sleep with him to help him feel better. Mark was stunned, and he had no idea how to react. If Susan felt rejected, she might refuse to testify in cat eyes case. But he couldn't send her the wrong message either.

Dr. Tristan Engels (38:27)

This is again, actually a very typical setup. I saw this often when I worked in corrections. Usually an incarcerated person would slowly compromise a custody officer or a staff member for personal gain, like smuggling contraband. There was always a goal with Susan. The goal looks different, but the mechanics are the same. Her aim appears to be attachment. She was very young, married at 15, raised in poverty, living in instability, and became a young mother in unsafe environments. From a psychological standpoint, she's likely seeking safety, stability and security and doesn't really know boundaries very well. And she likely saw security and stability and safety in Mark. But Mark had already been blurring boundaries from the beginning. And as Susan probed, she learned his vulnerabilities. Like where he was overwhelmed, lonely, and under pressure. Then she used intimacy as currency. Mark recognized that immediately, or at least according to him. And if he rejects her, he risks the case and his job. If he accepts, he compromises himself further, particularly in his marriage as well as his job. That is the anatomy of a setup. Once leverage exists, there are really no clean choices left. Turning yourself in is the best and safest one. That's less likely to lead to criminal charges. Remember, he paid her personally for helping him. He didn't go through the proper FBI channels. He didn't do it the appropriate way. She misinterpreted that. And now we're Here, and I want to be clear here, Mark is the authority. He is the professional. He should have set clear boundaries from the start and with no contact with Susan. So this is no way blaming the victim here. I want to make that very clear.

Vanessa Richardson (40:15)

Well, it was a bold proposition from Susan, and now Mark knew exactly how intense her feelings for him were. He shut her down as gently as he could, hoping it wouldn't hurt their working relationship. Fortunately, Susan showed no hard feelings, and in the end, she testified against Cat Eyes. As planned. Her testimony helped seal the case, and he was sentenced to 57 years in federal prison. Mark was ecstatic. He could finally put it all behind him. However, even once the trial was over, Susan kept coming around the office. Mark didn't want to offend her, especially now that she and Kathy were close. But soon he found a possible way out of this mess in the form of a new partner. Partner? After the Cat Eyes trial, a new agent joined Mark in the Pikeville office. His name was Ronald Poole. Ronald was there to work on some local drug cases, which Mark saw as a prime opportunity to pass Susan off to him. In his mind, it was a win win. Susan could still make money as an informant, but he wouldn't have to see her as often. But before Mark could see his plans through, things with Susan imploded. Did. Now that people in town knew she'd been talking to the Feds, a lot of her friends and family members turned on her. Susan felt isolated, and soon she completely spiraled. To cope with all the problems in her life, she started drinking heavily and taking pills at the same time. She confided in Kathy about everything. Kathy tried to be supportive, and for a while, she thought she was helping Susan, at least a little. But then, In August of 1988, Kathy was completely blindsided. She received an anonymous phone call from someone claiming that Susan and Mark were having an affair. Kathy was stunned. She confronted Mark about it, and he denied everything. However, even though she trusted him, something in Kathy's gut said there was something wrong in her eyes. Even if the affair was just a rumor, someone believed it was true. Maybe even Susan herself. Which meant Mark might have been sending her the wrong messages. Mark was equally as troubled by this thought. He prided himself on his pristine image more than anything and felt ashamed and embarrassed that he'd let things get messy.

Dr. Tristan Engels (42:34)

This is likely destabilizing for Mark because he's the reliable one. He's the image of a devoted husband, and he's the one who wins by being smarter and more prepared than everyone. Else. But now he's covered in suspicion, shame and rumors. And regardless of whether it's true or not, the perception alone can feel like a loss of control and a threat to his identity. It's also a moral injury, and it's highlighting just how badly he did blur boundaries and how much he misjudged the situation. Now the consequences can affect not only his job and his identity, but his marriage as well. So instead of stepping back and repairing the damage, someone like Mark is more likely to double down on control by minimizing, denying, or trying to fix the situation quietly. But that instinct to contain rather than confront is exactly what keeps him trapped in the mess. He might even try and employ an external source to advocate on his behalf. Since that's worked so well in the past.

Vanessa Richardson (43:35)

What can be some healthy ways for someone to cope with a situation like this?

Dr. Tristan Engels (43:40)

Firstly, they would need to learn boundaries and restore clear ones immediately. And that would include include stepping back from Susan entirely, documenting his concerns and involving a supervisor. Second, it requires tolerating discomfort and accountability. Healthy coping means accepting the embarrassment, repair work and potential professional consequences rather than trying to avoid them. Third, it means seeking appropriate support from neutral but ethical sources, which include a supervisor, an internal affairs or ethics office, or a therapist. Therapists. Processing stress in the right place prevents it from leaking into the wrong relationships or displacing it onto vulnerable targets, especially if your job involves power and authority like this. And lastly, it involves distancing identity from control and image. So identify core values, morals and ethics and realign with those rather than optics. And those are great places to start.

Vanessa Richardson (44:42)

Start well. As if the rumors about Mark and Susan weren't bad enough, the situation was only about to get worse. While Mark continued to work long hours on the chop shop case, he found himself becoming the target of constant harassment in town. One afternoon, he walked outside to find someone had let the air out of his car tires. Other times he'd answer the phone to nothing but silence or heavy breathing. The constant, constant tension made both he and Kathie feel extremely anxious. One person who picked up on how Mark was feeling was Susan. Even though he'd introduced her to his new colleague Robert, she still brought him information on drug related cases. But that wasn't all. Susan also tried to give Mark advice on how to deal with everything he was going through. Mark appreciated her kindness. Susan was sweet and she seemed genuinely eager to have help, both with the investigations and with his personal life. The more time they spent together, the more protective he felt over her. Here she was going Through a ton of her own stress. And still, all she wanted was to make things better for him. His door was always open to her, including one day in late 1988 when Susan came to his office with a tip about an alleged drug dealer. Once she told him all the details, Mark thanked her. But Susan didn't leave. Instead, she looked at Mark closely and told him he seemed tense. She admitted that Kathy'd been telling her how rough things were at home. She said that she understood him and that if he needed to feel better, she was always there. Then, according to Mark, Susan leaned in and kissed him. And he let her. With all the stress he was under, his moral compass had become completely blurred. Once he and Susan locked lips, Mark finally felt a semblance of relief. He wanted more of that feeling. So that same afternoon, Mark and Susan had sex in his car. And according to him, they went on to sleep together four more times over the next two weeks.

Dr. Tristan Engels (46:47)

Remember, all of this was destabilizing to him. He was under tremendous stress because his actions were threatening every. He worked his entire life to get and to maintain. He was feeling powerless, and his vulnerability was narrowing his judgment. And Susan very much understood what was making him vulnerable and how much. In the same way he knew her vulnerabilities and preyed upon those, this affair likely felt like a solution. And when you consider the power dynamics here, with Mark being the authority figure, being desired in secret, especially by someone who depended on him professionally, it likely fed his ego and it reinforced his sense of dominance. At the same time, the affair gave him something he felt he was losing elsewhere, which is certainty. This was a space where Mark felt wanted and powerful. That doesn't excuse the behavior, but it helps explain why someone who valued discipline and image still crossed a line he knew better than to approach, especially right now. And I think this affair was likely about restoring control and validation. And let's be clear, he took advantage of Susan as well.

Vanessa Richardson (47:57)

Mark had let his stress get the better of him. Within a couple of weeks, he realized just how much things had gotten out of control. He knew if he didn't get out of Pikeville soon, he was going to blow up his career and his marriage. So in early 1989, after nearly two years in Pikeville, Mark requested a transfer to Miami. To his surprise and delight, his request was granted. He and Kathy were thrilled. They could finally build a life somewhere more exciting, where there were more people and where they weren't being constantly harassed. They packed their bags and left Pikeville almost as soon as they got the news. Mark was so eager to leave, he didn't bother to say goodbye to Susan. When she heard he was gone, she was devastated. She fell harder into drug addiction and lost her welfare benefits. On top of that, people in town were still angry at her for serving as an informant and someone physically assaulted her because of it. She'd hit rock bottom and Mark, who she thought was her lifeline, had abandoned her. However, shortly after he left, Susan found a reason to try and get him back into her life. When she discovered she was pregnant and she believed believed Mark was the father, he'd been ignoring her calls. But when she left him a message in April saying she had something important to talk about, he could hear in her voice that it was serious. So he called her back. That's when Susan shared the news. She was ecstatic, but Mark was mortified. He told Susan he was returning to Pikeville in a couple of months to wrap up the trip Chop Shop case. He said they could meet up and talk things through while he was in town. Susan agreed and anxiously awaited his return. Meanwhile, Mark went into panic mode. He thought he'd narrowly escaped complete ruin, only to learn his troubles were just beginning. He racked his brain for a way out of the mess he was in, and when the time came for Mark and Susan to discuss how to move forward, what started as a lurid affair devolved into a cold blooded murder. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for the conclusion of our story on Mark Putnam.

Dr. Tristan Engels (50:30)

See Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is a Crime House original Powered by Pave Studios Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Serial Killers and Murderous Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and.

Vanessa Richardson (50:52)

To enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Serial Killers and Murderous Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series. Serial Killers and Murderous Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Serial Killers and Murderous Murderers Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertovsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Markie Lee, Sarah Tardiff and Carrie Murphy. Thank you for listening. Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class.

Dr. Tristan Engels (51:54)

I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

Vanessa Richardson (51:58)

And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.

Dr. Tristan Engels (52:04)

Oh, sorry.

Vanessa Richardson (52:05)

Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts. What drives a person to murder? Find out from a licensed forensic psychologist on serial killers and murderous murderers. Minds A Crime House Original Podcast New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday. Follow wherever you get your podcasts.

Commercial Voice 1 (52:28)

Lifelock how can I help?

Dr. Tristan Engels (52:29)

The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.

Commercial Voice 1 (52:32)

One in four taxpaying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.

Dr. Tristan Engels (52:35)

What do I do? My refund, though.

Vanessa Richardson (52:37)

I'm freaking out. Don't worry.

Dr. Tristan Engels (52:39)

I can fix this.

Commercial Voice 1 (52:39)

LifeLock fixes identity theft, guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage.

Dr. Tristan Engels (52:45)

I'm so relieved. Received no problem. I'll be with you every step of the way.

Commercial Voice 1 (52:48)

One in four was a fraud. Paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40 your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.