INTERVIEW: Jessica Pressler, Expert on Anna Delvey

Summary

Scams, Money & Murder: Interview with Jessica Pressler on Anna Delvey

Episode Title: INTERVIEW: Jessica Pressler, Expert on Anna Delvey
Host: Nicole Lapin
Release Date: June 19, 2025
Podcast Series: Scams, Money & Murder by Crime House
Guest: Jessica Pressler, journalist and author of the groundbreaking New York Magazine article on Anna Delvey.

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1. Introduction

In this engaging episode of Scams, Money & Murder, host Nicole Lapin welcomes Jessica Pressler, the esteemed journalist behind the infamous New York Magazine article that unveiled the intricate scam of Anna Delvey Sorkin—a fake German heiress who duped New York's elite. Jessica's in-depth reporting not only shed light on Anna's elaborate fraud but also inspired the popular Netflix series Inventing Anna.

2. The Anna Delvey Scam

Jessica Pressler delves into the audacious world Anna Delvey navigated. Anna posed as a wealthy socialite, frequenting high-end restaurants, yachts, and exclusive events, convincing banks, hotels, and even friends to fund her extravagant lifestyle.

Jessica Pressler [00:08]: “A lot of people were very insistent that she was real. She had bought these dinners, she was on yachts. The audacity of it is fascinating. I don't think I've ever met anybody so unwilling to take no for an answer.”

Jessica highlights the impressive facade Anna maintained, infiltrating prestigious institutions like Fortress City National Bank and Gibson Dunn law firm despite being labeled a "27-year-old nobody" in the tabloids.

3. Economic Backdrop and Social Media Influence

The conversation transitions to the socio-economic climate during Anna's rise. Post the 2008 financial crisis, there was an influx of venture capital and "easy money," creating an environment ripe for ambitious entrepreneurs.

Jessica Pressler [04:12]: “I definitely think that her story is so much a story of the time we were kind of in... very the easy money startup venture capitalists throwing funding at whatever to see if it sticks.”

This environment, coupled with the burgeoning influence of social media, made it easier for Anna to project an image of success and manipulate perceptions.

4. Unraveling the Web of Deception

Jessica recounts the moment her investigation into Anna shifted from curiosity to a major story, emphasizing the extensive network Anna had woven involving art collectors, real estate investors, and influential figures.

Jessica Pressler [06:14]: “Every rock you looked under there was like a whole bunch of other bold faced names scurried out from underneath it... the size of the web was very large.”

The complexity and scale of Anna's network highlighted her ability to convincingly portray herself as a legitimate heiress.

5. Challenges in Reporting the Truth

One of the most significant hurdles Jessica faced was establishing trust with Anna, who was incarcerated and accused of fraud. This made direct communication unreliable, necessitating thorough triangulation of facts from multiple sources.

Jessica Pressler [10:45]: “She was never, like, a reliable source, so there was a lot of triangulation that had to happen... most of the information that I got about her came from other people.”

Despite these challenges, Jessica believes Anna was mostly truthful, with her deceit primarily consisting of omissions rather than outright lies.

6. Anna’s True Intentions and Ambitions

Jessica provides insight into Anna's genuine desire to create a legitimate arts foundation, distancing her actions from mere financial gain. Anna was determined to gain respect as a savvy businesswoman rather than simply scamming for personal enrichment.

Jessica Pressler [08:04]: “She really wanted to start the business. She really believed that this arts foundation that was named after her was a great idea and that it could have taken off.”

This revelation paints Anna as a complex character driven by ambition and a genuine, albeit misguided, vision.

7. Media Influence and Heroification of Scammers

The discussion shifts to the impact of media portrayals, specifically the Netflix adaptation, which risks glamorizing scam artists by adding layers of human complexity and enigmatic charm.

Jessica Pressler [19:07]: “I find it kind of disturbing that Anna has kind of been perceived like a hero in a lot of ways.”

Jessica expresses concern that dramatizations can inadvertently turn scammers into folk heroes, overshadowing the deceit and harm they caused.

8. Evolution of Scamming in the Modern Era

Jessica identifies current trends in scamming, noting that while the methods evolve, the underlying tactics remain consistent. She points out the rise of scams related to AI, cryptocurrency, and personal relationships, akin to the Tinder Swindler's elaborate deceptions.

Jessica Pressler [25:23]: “The biggest trend in my inbox, weirdly, is the amount of people who are like, I was scammed and it was my husband or my wife.”

She emphasizes that as long as there is new technology or opportunities, scams will adapt and persist.

9. Anna Delvey’s Life Post-Scam

Jessica shares updates on Anna's life following her arrest, highlighting her resilience and continuous hustle to maintain her notoriety. From participating in Dancing with the Stars to auctioning NFTs, Anna remains a prominent yet controversial figure.

Jessica Pressler [30:24]: “She was doing art for a while and kind of having these art auctions and she was auctioning off NFTs... she just ignored him. I think she lives there.”

Despite her criminal background, Anna continues to leverage her fame, demonstrating her unwavering tenacity.

10. Final Reflections and Takeaways

In concluding the interview, Jessica Pressler reflects on the broader implications of Anna's story. She underscores the importance of not glorifying criminals and reiterates the fundamental lesson: crime does not pay.

Jessica Pressler [34:22]: “Don't do crime.”

Jessica hopes listeners understand the complexities behind such scams and recognize the systemic issues that allow them to thrive.

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Notable Quotes

• Jessica Pressler on Anna's Audacity:
  “I don't think I've ever met anybody so unwilling to take no for an answer.”
  [00:08]

• On the Economic Backdrop:
  “The amount of money that was kind of changing hands... easy to see and interesting how somebody could just be like, why not me?”
  [04:12]

• Regarding Media Heroification:
  “I find it kind of disturbing that Anna has kind of been perceived like a hero in a lot of ways.”
  [19:07]

• Final Takeaway:
  “Don't do crime.”
  [34:22]

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a profound exploration of Anna Delvey's intricate scam through the lens of Jessica Pressler's investigative journalism. It not only unravels the layers of deception employed by Anna but also critically examines the societal and media influences that shape our perceptions of such figures. Listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the thin line between ambition and fraud, the evolving landscape of scams, and the ethical responsibilities of media portrayals in true crime narratives.

For more in-depth discussions and analyses of financial crimes, follow Crime House on Instagram and TikTok @crimehouse, and don't miss their latest offerings, including the audiobook Murder in the Media available on Spotify.

Transcript

[Jessica Pressler]

Foreign.

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This is Crime House.

[Jessica Pressler]

A lot of people were very insistent that she was real. She had bought these dinners, she was on yachts. The audacity of it is fascinating. I don't think I've ever met anybody so unwilling to take no for an answer.

[Nicole Lapin]

Hello and welcome to Scams, Money and Murder. Our guest today is Jessica Pressler, journalist behind the New York magazine article that captured the unbelievable story of Anna Delvey Sorkin, the fake German heiress who scammed New York's elite. We covered Anna's story in an earlier episode and you can find a link to that in the show Notes for this episode, Anna posed as a wealthy socialite in Manhattan, convincing banks, hotels and even her own friends to fund her lavish lifestyle. Jessica didn't just report on the story.

[Unknown Host]

She developed relationships with a lot of.

[Nicole Lapin]

The people involved, including Anna herself. Her reporting ultimately inspired the hit Netflix series Inventing Anna. Crime House Studios has released its first audiobook called Murder in the Media. Told through the lens of five heart pounding murder cases, this thrilling audiobook traces the evolving and sometimes insidious role the media has had in shaping true crime storytelling. Murder in the Media is a Crime House original audiobook. Find it now on Spotify.

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[Jessica Pressler]

Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting. A lot of great topics in that time.

[Unknown Host]

True and I'd love to especially double click on the first one. So when you first heard about Ana, what struck you emotionally about her? Even before you decided to report on it.

[Jessica Pressler]

Emotionally, that's interesting. The thing that stuck out to me were the, the names of the people that she was involved with, like the financial institutions, Fortress City National Bank, Gibson Dunn, the law firm. There were all these kind of big name, kind of insidery places. And she was described sort of in the tabloids as this 27 year old nobody. So it was very interesting to me how a 27 year old nobody from Germany by way of Russia had managed to insinuate herself into these hallowed insider institutions.

[Unknown Host]

How did she permeate through these storied financial and legal institutions as this so called nobody? But also at the time, we're at a backdrop of social media influence over culture. We were post 2008 apocalyptic crash of the financial system. How do you think that made Anna's story especially potent?

[Jessica Pressler]

Yeah, well, I definitely think that her story is so much a story of the time we were kind of in still, I guess the very kind of easy money startup venture capitalists throwing funding at whatever to see if it sticks. You know, hundreds of millions of dollars being handed out to people all over the place. And it was very interesting and easy for me to see how somebody could just be like, well, if, you know, Audrey Gelman is getting hundreds of millions of dollars to start the wing, which was a social club I was actually part of. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's great, but you know, it's like the amount of money that was kind of changing hands, the valuations, these were getting work, these fantasy enormous empires that people were building overnight, it was easy to see and interesting how somebody could look at that and be like, well, why not me? Why can't I start this kind of social club? At that time it seemed very possible.

[Unknown Host]

And when you say easy money, you mean zero interest rates. So when we almost saw death in its eye with the financial collapse, the Fed lowered interest rates to near zero levels, which is done in an emergency situation. I know we're sort of nostalgic for it now, but it's done so that the world doesn't end. But it also led to this idea that anyone can raise huge valuations because money was quote unquote cheap. Then VCs had more of it. You could borrow really, really easily. And because they had so much of it, they had to give it to somebody. And these women were sort of the darlings of the space at the time, especially in New York. Hearing about it is one thing, right? Or having it in the tabloids is sort of cursory, actually pulling the Threads of her story is something entirely different. So let's get into how it all started to unfold. At what point did looking into Ana stop feeling like a small curiosity and start feeling like something much bigger?

[Jessica Pressler]

I think it was just kind of calling around to like Fortress AB Rosen, who's this, you know, major art collector and real estate investor. They aren't names that everyone knows, but they're the names that people in the know know. So it was very interesting to me. Kind of just the amount of names that kept coming as you're pulling this thread. Every rock you looked under there was like a whole bunch of other bold faced names scurried out from underneath it. The amount of people kind of that were involved. Artists thinking about, like Daniel Arsham. She was talking about how Christo would wrap the building at some point on Park Avenue that she was going to buy to house the arts foundation. I mean, Christo, I think said that he had never met her, interacted with her, but a lot of people had. The amount of people involved and the scale of it, the size of the web, I guess was very large. And that was very interesting.

[Unknown Host]

Were there early pieces of that web of information about Anna that didn't really fit this scam artist narrative that made you question what story you were actually chasing in the first place?

[Jessica Pressler]

A lot of people were very insistent that she was real, that this was this really rich woman that they had seen. She had bought these dinners, she was on yachts. They were like, well, we saw it with our own eyes. I know that she has money coming from somewhere, like maybe her father's an oligarch. I know that she couldn't have possibly been a scam artist. Even at the time that she's in Rikers island, you know, can't really believe it. Because they've seen it with their own eyes was an interesting facet of it. People were just kind of like unwilling to like believe that they had been fleeced in that way.

[Unknown Host]

Was there something that Hannah wanted you to believe about her that you found particularly clever or calculated?

[Jessica Pressler]

She really wanted to be respected for being clever and calculated for sure. And she was very adamant that she was going to do this project. She wasn't trying to get this multimillion dollar loan to run away with the money. She really wanted to start the business. She really believed that this arts foundation that was named after her was a great idea and that it could have taken off. And she wanted people to respect that. She had assembled this great team and she really, frankly, had assembled a great team. And as it happened, the building on Park Avenue that she was looking at turned into a very similar venue. It became Fotografisca, which is basically an arts club type thing with a restaurant and a coffee shop and all of the things that she was imagining. She really wanted respect for her intelligence and her savvy in that way.

[Unknown Host]

Did you ever have a moment where you thought, maybe she's not a villain? Yeah, entirely something else.

[Jessica Pressler]

She obviously did some things that were unconscionable, but the way that she talks about it, she was going to pay people back, she was going to make this business successful. Like, this was just the path that she was taking. And again, like, going back to the time that we're in and people's origin stories, it's like, yeah, if she had succeeded, if she had built the arts club, if she had paid people back, then her lying about her identity would have just been like a funny story that she told that was like part of her success story, part of her origin myth. So I think there was an element of like, is it her that is the problem or is society the problem, that we allow this kind of thing to flourish that we want to believe?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah. We've covered so many of these stories on this show, and I think there's a moment of fake it till you make it. Elizabeth Holmes is an example. If she had actually figured that out, you know, this wouldn't be a story. There's always a hitching process and, like a fabrication within business and fundraising. And when you actually pull it off, there's no scam. You know, there are no half truths here. It's just looking back, like you said, it's an amusing part of the whole story, but she didn't see it to fruition, of course, and that meant that you had to navigate a crazy maze of conflicting accounts and shifting alliances and stories and tales from her and everybody around her. I'd love to hear more about the reporting process behind the scenes. What was the hardest part of building trust with somebody whose entire story was built around deception?

[Jessica Pressler]

Because of her being in the position that she was in, being in jail and accused of fraud, she was never, like, a reliable source, so there was a lot of triangulation that had to happen. Like, she would tell me something happened and I would have to check it out in as many possible ways. I do feel like she mostly did tell me the truth in a lot of ways. Most of her lies were sort of lies of omission, which is clever. Sort of. She's not really lying about things. It's more like she's just not telling you. Actually my dad is a truck driver and also she was very hard to reach at the time that I was interviewing her. Really early on she was at Rikers Island. I couldn't call her, she had to call me. I could go out there, but a lot of the time I could only take paper notes. I only had like one or two recorded interviews, so most of the information that I got about her came from other people.

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[Nicole Lapin]

All true crime lovers, Crime House has released its first audiobook called Murder in the Media. Told through the lens of five heart pounding murder cases, this thrilling audiobook traces the evolving and sometimes insidious role the media has in shaping true crime storytelling. From the discovery of America's first serial killer, to a shocking murder of a Hollywood legend, to a chilling disappearance that captivated the nation, each of these stories will change how you think about the relationship between the media and true crime forever. Murder in the Media is a Crime House original audiobook. Find it now on Spotify.

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[Unknown Host]

Do you have a soft spot for her? Like, do you feel as if she was embarrassed that her father was a truck driver? Do you feel like this came from an honest, good place that somehow got mutilated in the mean streets of New York and society.

[Jessica Pressler]

I don't know. I mean, I do have a soft spot for her for sure, at this point. Like, we've kind of been through a lot as we did the whole like Netflix series and all of that. I feel like I've seen her evolve a lot and I have a lot of respect for her in a way because she has been through a crazy. I mean, Rikers island is a crazy place for a 27 year old girl to be. Like, I mean, she's tough surviving that. I don't think I could handle that. And now she's out. She's very strong and I don't think she is embarrassed about her father being a truck driver. I think there are things that embarrass her. The things that embarrass her. She worries that people think she's an idiot or that she's just like a greedy idiot. And she really wants to be seen as a businesswoman woman and an intelligent person.

[Unknown Host]

It was part of the era and I think that getting caught up in that potentially was part of it. But when you first found out, you mentioned that you guys continued to get to know each other and spend a lot of time together through Netflix. When you first found out that Shonda Rhimes wanted to adapt your work, what did you think?

[Jessica Pressler]

I was really curious to see how that was gonna go. I guess that was my, my major. I was like, well, this will be really interesting. Cause I knew about Scandal in Grey's Anatomy and I was like, this is just gonna be an interesting ride. Let's see where this goes. That was pretty much my feeling about it, tell you the truth. And it was.

[Unknown Host]

And it was. Yeah, sounds like it was. How did you feel seeing yourself, your own role dramatized on screen? And did it match any of the way you remember living it?

[Jessica Pressler]

Yeah, I mean, it's a really clever show in that so much of it is true. So much of it is details that she kind of pulled out of conversations with, with people, with, with me, with other people. So much of it is true. And then it also, you know, looks really different. Like the experience of how you view yourself and the movie of yourself in your mind is like different from how somebody else's perception. So it's very like uncanny in a lot of ways to see that play out on screen. It was fun. I was involved throughout the process as they were writing the scripts. It wasn't like a surprise to me or Anything like that. And it was just really interesting to see it.

[Unknown Host]

Did you have a say about who played you?

[Jessica Pressler]

Oh, no, no, no. They didn't ask. I found out kind of when everybody else found out. It's like, oh, all right.

[Unknown Host]

And what'd you think? Because I think we all sort of think about who would play us.

[Jessica Pressler]

Yeah, I was really more worried, honestly, about the other people and if they were happy. Like, there were so many other people involved. There was Neff, the concierge. There was Casey Duke, the trainer. Anna's lawyer, Todd Spodek, who I adore. I was, like, much more concerned about. They were happy and like. And all of this at that point because, you know, I had gotten to know all of them and Anna over a long period of time. It was nice that we were kind of on that ride together.

[Unknown Host]

Was there anything that they cut out that you wish made it into the show or.

[Jessica Pressler]

Ooh, that's interesting. I don't think so. No. I don't really recall seeing it and wishing that there had been something, that.

[Unknown Host]

They'D included something, or was there anything cringe where you're like, ooh, I was.

[Jessica Pressler]

Pregnant when I was reporting the story, but my water did not break on the office floor. I just feel like everyone should know that, to tell you the truth. You know, it's a funny thing. Like, I loved them so much. I love. They were so kind and respectful of everybody involved. Like, truly, they were very thoughtful, kind of, like attached to all the characters. I believe that they truly, really liked us all and wanted to, like, do right by us. I have no negative feelings about it at all.

[Unknown Host]

Having my first child a few months ago, I thought that water breaking was a big dramatic moment. Just because I've seen that happen in all TV and movies. It wasn't, at least for me.

[Jessica Pressler]

I know it's the way that you show, I think, on tv, that somebody's gonna have a baby. Like, it makes sense. I mean, all of those kinds of decisions. That's the other thing. It's like a magazine article or something. It's like when you're watching these things, the action is compressed. There are a lot of things about it that were true in spirit, I will say, even if they weren't, like, to the letter.

[Unknown Host]

Was there anything that you saw played out there about the reporting process that made you think, maybe I should have approached this differently, knowing what I know now.

[Jessica Pressler]

I think an embarrassing thing about the show, I think this is true in my recollection, is that I think it's true that I didn't look at Instagram right away.

[Unknown Host]

Do you think dramatizing generally stories like this like Anna's risks glamorizing the people that we set out to hold accountable?

[Jessica Pressler]

I always remember that I interviewing Michael Lewis about Liars Poker, and he was very surprised when Liars Poker came out and people took it as, like, kind of a playbook for how to live and work on Wall Street. And it was a huge hit with Wall street people. And he's like, I thought that I was telling everybody how terrible this was, and instead, it just became like the Bible for these people. And so that is a bit of an alarming re. Yes. I find it kind of disturbing that Anna has kind of been perceived like a hero in a lot of ways.

[Unknown Host]

I think, overall, it texturizes these characters that we see as scam artists, but are human and have layers and contours. And we definitely saw that. I mean, Anna's story has now lived so many lives, from the show to articles to maybe even another movie or a show. Who knows what's going to happen in the future? She's definitely fascinated a lot of people. If we zoom out, do you think a story like Anna's could happen again today, or would it play out differently?

[Jessica Pressler]

Yeah, judging from my inbox, which is just all scans all the time. I mean, yeah, I do think that in terms of what we were talking about earlier, I think there is, like, more due diligence or just kind of more aware that they might be embarrassed if they end up in a situation like this. But, yeah, I mean, I think that the scam is alive and well and bigger than it's maybe ever been. It's sort of become the way that we live. Like, everybody's kind of encouraged. I mean, I'm curious, like, you do this show about this. I'm sort of like, just feels like everyone's scamming on some level at this point. You know, everybody's on Instagram showing a version of their life that is better than the real version. And everybody's kind of doing fake it till you make it, presenting themselves in a certain way. The reaction to Anna was about that. It was like, we're all doing this. Of course. This is our hero. Of course. Like, even though she went to jail, that's the weird part about it. It's like, she didn't actually succeed at the scam. You guys realize that, right? Like, she went to jail. Like, she didn't do a good job. She got caught. Do all these stories sound the same to you?

[Unknown Host]

They all have different gradients, which what you touched on was the fact that maybe we're all scammers in certain ways. There's definitely a gradient. And once you reach a certain level, it's illegal. And at what point does her ruse and the timing of it actually veer into the illegal territory or not? Because if she had pulled something else together. I feel like, to your point, we've seen this with entrepreneurs time and again. When they're raising money and they're talking about the next big thing, there's a dance. You're trying to sell a thing, but you need to get the money to sell the thing. And so it's almost like a catch 22. You need the story to get the money. You need the money to get the product. I think the timing really matters for how these stories end up playing out. And I think that whoever is the Anna of tomorrow is not going to play out exactly the same as the Anna of yesterday.

[Jessica Pressler]

Right, Right.

[Unknown Host]

We're not going to see, God forbid, a shoe bomber go on an airplane, even though we have to take our shoes off, they're going to pick something else we've safeguarded. We know that the shoes are a thing. The next person that wants to bring something on a plane, I doubt is going to use the shoes. So in the same way the next Anna is going to look different.

[Jessica Pressler]

It's always just exploiting loopholes. Hotels are not going to let people stay without putting down their credit card. After this, they learned their lesson.

[Unknown Host]

I can't even believe that happened.

[Jessica Pressler]

I know. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

She was so convincing in that. The fact that you say that some of these institutions, like City, national or maybe even larger hotel chains might not want to be embarrassed or egg on their face. Let's double click on that. Do you think that these institutions that were scammed were so embarrassed that something like that happened to them with all their so called safeguards that they just wanted it to go away?

[Jessica Pressler]

Oh yeah. I mean, half of the hotels wouldn't return my calls. Partly, I think they didn't want to give people kind of a playbook of how to do this by describing in detail what had happened. The embarrassment level was so high. I mean, when you think about it with Anna in particular, it's like the kind of loopholes that she exploited was she'd hit these, the most image conscious people that you can imagine, like high finance, like Wall street people, fashion people, art people. These are all people who, their reputation and their image is so important to them and so meaningful to them and so integral to their business, their clients ability to trust them were so important to them. The lawyers for instance.

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[Nicole Lapin]

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[Jessica Pressler]

What she's seeing inside the witnesses, the.

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Evidence, and what it all means.

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[Unknown Host]

You said that your inbox is full of scams or scam stories. You're probably known as the scam reporter. Are you seeing any trends with who the next Anna could be? Are we seeing a new world with AI or are we seeing what's happening, who's going to scam us next?

[Jessica Pressler]

Anytime there's anything that's new that comes along that's really big and there's a lot of money in it, it's new like that, that becomes the thing, right? The biggest trend in my inbox, weirdly, is the amount of people who are like, I was scammed and it was my husband or my wife. So many stories that people were like, and my, you know, this person I was married to is a scammer. I don't know what that's about. That's a, that's dark. But I, yeah, I think that the AI, the crypto of it all, I almost like can't get into it because it feels so much to me like the same story with different people, the same actors, like, just kind of coming up again and again in those spaces.

[Unknown Host]

Do you see Somebody that's in the tabloids now that feels reminiscent of previous Anna.

[Jessica Pressler]

Oh, my God. Yeah. And they just get crazier and crazier the stories. I mean, that is the really weird thing. Was this always going on and we weren't so aware of it? Is this the scammiest moment in history or, you know, was this always happening? We're only kind of just paying attention to it because it did feel like between Elizabeth Holmes, the Fyre Festival, and Anna Dalby, the scam thing kind of exploded in that moment. It was like the threes, a trend type of thing. And after that, it just felt like every story was a scam story. So I don't know if we're just paying more attention to them or we're living through.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Jessica Pressler]

The scammiest moment in human history, which, I mean, now that I'm saying it, we clearly are.

[Unknown Host]

I didn't realize Anna's connection to the Fyre Festival guy.

[Jessica Pressler]

Isn't that the best? They briefly live together, roommates. It's a beautiful thing. I think she just ignored him. I think she. She lives there. And kind of the reports that I got from the Magnesis, remember, he had a credit card called, like, Magnesis, and it was a black Amex for millennials.

[Unknown Host]

It's also sort of the scam as old as time that people pretend to be part of fancier families with the Tinder swindler guy and people saying that they're a Rockefeller and you kind of, you know, don't totally know or check. Or in the case of the Tinder swindler, he had an elaborate story of being part of this family. So I think that's one that probably will never go out of style.

[Jessica Pressler]

Oh, yeah, no. The drifter who comes in from out of town, appearing very wealthy. It's a great American story, you know, I mean, this is the land of, like, invention and reinvention. And it makes sense that this is the story that we tell over and over again.

[Unknown Host]

How often do you talk to Anna now?

[Jessica Pressler]

I haven't talked to her in a while. We get along. We will still text occasionally. I don't really need to be, like, a bigger part of her story. I guess I'm content to, like, kind of watch from afar, I guess.

[Unknown Host]

What do you think about some of.

[Jessica Pressler]

Her antics since the show she's running with her notoriety? She could have done so many things differently. You know, she could have pled guilty and gone home to Back to Europe years ago, changed her name and done something total. She could Be living a totally different life. Right. But instead she really leaned into it. I think it's really interesting. I think, like, it's working. Obviously, the audacity of it is fascinating and I think a little bit admirable. Like, that's the other thing about these scam stories that I think that is very appealing is that a lot of us kind of wish that we just had the confidence and the guts to go for it in this way. Her tenacity. I don't think I've ever met anybody so unwilling to take no for an answer. I mean, I was joking at the beginning of this that she's the last immigrant with a criminal record to not be deported. I mean, she will just not let it happen. I think she's been like, on the tarmac about to be deported. An appeal will come through. She pushes and pushes. She gets lawyers on the phone. She gets. I got a call kind of recently from a very well known, very well respected PR person who was like, Anna called me, like, should I work with her? And I'm like, people are still taking the calls. I mean, I feel like she's kind of at a higher echelon than ever. It's amazing. I mean, good luck to her.

[Unknown Host]

And how is she paying the PR people? I'm assuming she's making some money, some legit money now.

[Jessica Pressler]

She was doing art for a while and kind of having these art auctions and she was auctioning off NFTs, which I just don't even understand at all, if I'm being honest. I think she's done like some ad campaigns for people. Dancing with the Stars I think was like a six figure salary for not that much. I think she's living with Kelly Catrone, who's the fashion publicist, last I heard. She's hustling. She's hustling.

[Unknown Host]

Did the Dancing with the Stars thing surprise you?

[Jessica Pressler]

Only in that you're like, wow, life is really like this. That's a joke that someone would have made early on in my reporting. Oh, she'll end up on Dancing with the Stars. And in fact, yes, I remember people being like, oh, she's going to end up in a Marc Jacobs campaign.

[Unknown Host]

If there is something that you could ask Anna today, one more question. Knowing everything that you know now, what would it be?

[Jessica Pressler]

One of the things that keeps her appeal going is that Anna does not give a lot of information. She keeps stuff like, pretty close to the vest. She'll say like these outrageous things, like, I didn't learn anything on Dancing with the Stars or I'm not sorry to the New York Times. She doesn't give a lot, and I think that. That she has this mysterious quality that people kind of want to know and see more.

[Unknown Host]

Is that intentional?

[Jessica Pressler]

I think it is, actually. I think it is intentional, yeah. I think she allows others to project onto her a little bit. It's worked for her, so that's very interesting. So, yeah, I don't have questions for her because I just know she wouldn't give me a satisfying answer.

[Unknown Host]

Do you think that it's all calculated as part of her image, the way she is enigmatic or, you know, the way she shows up, or has she just pivoted as she went?

[Jessica Pressler]

I think pivoted as she went 100%. Then it's. It's sort of become a little bit more of like a this is working for me type of thing. I don't know if you've seen this movie, like, old movie called Being There. This guy who's like a gardener. I mean, this is a terrible. He's like an idiot. He just doesn't say anything. And people are like, oh, my God, he's so quiet and so wise. And I think he, like, becomes President of the United States. It's just like that. People just project onto him like that his. His silence is wisdom. And I think that there's an aspect of that with Anna where she just doesn't say that much, and people are like, wow, that's so mysterious and interesting. And I want to know more.

[Unknown Host]

What do you hope readers now, viewers and listeners, ultimately take away from the.

[Nicole Lapin]

Anna Delvey story beyond the headlines?

[Jessica Pressler]

That's a really good question. I think that when I wrote the story, at the time, I was more, like, horrified that the institutions had allowed themselves to be taken in this way. And I was more, like, outraged. That was kind of my feeling at the time. And now, I mean, I do feel like it's like the liar's poker thing, where people took away a totally different thing than what I intended them to take away from it, I guess, is the answer. When there are legitimate people really needing help and people just brazenly push their way through, it's depressing. I mean, again, I think it's like the 2018. It was a bit of a different time. I do feel, like, a little bit more revolted by the reaction to lionizing Anna as a hero has, like, haunted me a little bit. I don't think she's, like, a bad person. I think that the fact that she was kind of taken to be this folk hero type of person. What do I want people to take away from it? I'm like, I don't know. They're taking away things from it that I never intended them to take away from it. Obviously this was wrong. It was stupid. She went to jail. Don't do crime. I think I'd like that. I'd like people to take that away from it. Don't do crime. It's not. It doesn't pay. But then you look at it, you're like, wait, does it. I don't know. In her case, maybe it kind of did.

[Unknown Host]

Don't do crime, kids.

[Jessica Pressler]

Don't do crime.

[Unknown Host]

Don't do drugs. Don't do crime. Even though, like her Swarovski ankle bracelet.

[Jessica Pressler]

Oh my God, the ankle monitor. I know, like, that glorifies it. It does. I mean, this is why I'm sort of useless to you guys. I'm sorry. Because I kind of like had to stop paying attention to like all scammy stuff. It just became very overwhelming. I'm impressed that you deal with it like on a day to day basis and so overwhelming and it's so nauseating.

[Unknown Host]

Thank you again.

[Jessica Pressler]

Thank you so much.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you so much for listening.

[Unknown Host]

I'm your host, Nicole Lepin.

[Nicole Lapin]

Scams, Money and Murder is a Crime House original. Join me every Thursday for a brand new episode here at Crime House. We want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard here today, reach out on social media. Crime House. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And for ad free listening plus early access and bonus content. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Scams, Money and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Scams, Money and Murder team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benidon, Stacey Warrenker, Sarah Kam, Paul Libeskin and Victoria Asher. Thank you so much for listening. Ready to rethink everything you know about true crime? Check out Murder in the Media, the first audiobook from Crime House Studios. Find Murder in the Media on Spotify.