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- [00:02]
A
Hey there, it's Nicole Lapman, host of the Crime House Original Scams, Money and Murder. If you are loving this show, you don't want to miss our fellow Crime House Original podcast, Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes. Every Wednesday, you'll get to explore the true stories behind the world's most shocking crimes, deadly ideologies and secret plots. From mass suicides and political assassinations to secret government experiments and UFO cults. Follow Conspiracy Theories, Cults and Crimes now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen. And for ad free listening and early access to episodes, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:50]
B
This is Crime House. People had called us a cult for many years and I always joke, you know, laughed it off, saying, well, this is a cult. It's happy, successful people. And I'm look at my life. It's great. What I didn't know is that if you're open, you can actually fully replace the foundations of someone's belief system. My world unraveled very fast and it was a massive betrayal and it was very destabilizing and ungrounding because I'd been vouching for this guy for 12 years.
- [01:22]
A
As they say, money makes the world go round. What many don't talk about is the time it made people's worlds come to a screeching halt. Whether it's greed, desperation or a thirst for power, money can make even the most unassuming people do unthinkable things. And sometimes those acts can be deadly. This is Scams, Money and Murder, a Crime House original. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Every Thursday we alternate between covering infamous money motivated crimes and gripping interviews with the experts or those who were directly involved themselves. Crime House exists because of you. Please rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. And for early ad, free access and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts.
- [02:21]
C
Buying a car in Carvana was so easy, I was able to finance it through them.
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A
I just.
- [02:25]
B
Whoa, wait, you mean finance?
- [02:26]
C
Yeah, Finance got pre qualified for a Carvana auto loan, entered my terms and shot from thousands of great car options, all within my budget.
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B
That's cool, but financing through Carvana was so easy.
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C
Financed, done, and I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow.
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D
Financed, right?
- [02:41]
E
That's what they said. You can spend time trying to pronounce financing, or you can actually finance and buy your car today on Carvana financing, subject to credit approval. Additional terms and conditions may apply.
- [02:51]
F
If you're an experienced pet owner, you already know that having a pet is 25% belly rubs, 25% yelling drop it. And 50% groaning at the bill from every pet visit. Which is why Lemonade Pet Insurance is tailor made for your pet and can save you up to 90% on vet bills. It can help cover checkups, emergencies, diagnostics, basically all the stuff that makes your bank account get nervous. Claims are filed super easily through the Lemonade app and half get settled instantly. Get a'@lemonade.com pet and they'll help cover the vet bill for whatever your pet swallowed after you yelled drop it.
- [03:24]
A
NXIVM presented itself as a groundbreaking personal development program dedicated to helping people unlock their true potential. It attracted high achievers, artists and philanthropists who were drawn in by the promise of a supportive community and the vision of making the world a better place. Its founder was hailed by followers as a genius, a philosophical visionary who held the keys to human growth. My guest today, Sarah Edmondson, was an actress who spent over a decade as a high ranking member of nexivm. She even recruited people to nxivm firmly believing she was helping them find happiness and purpose. But what began as a journey of self improvement turned into something completely different. Sarah, welcome to Scams, Money and Murder.
- [04:12]
B
Thank you so much for having me.
- [04:14]
E
Thank you so much for being here to share your story. I I'd like to just start with your life before NXIVM. What was that like?
- [04:21]
B
Well, those first 27 years were fairly normal. My parents were and still are very loving, supportive people. They are both in the mental health profession. My mom's a family therapist, my dad was a school counselor at the time. Say they were kind of former hippies, left leanings, politically, socially active, instilled some really good values into me including things like make the world better, you know, make it better than when you came. You too can change the world and have an impact and have a voice and things like that. So sort of one key component I like to share when sharing my background because I think that plays into what happened later. I was also very small growing up. I was a late bloomer. I was little and kind of nerdy and had these big red glasses and braces. I wasn't the popular kid and looked for belonging and wanted to fit in more. I was only child until I was nine when my dad remarried and then I had a brother but we didn't live in the same house so I always felt kind of alone and and I think that also fueled things that came Later I pursued acting. I thought that would be a way for me to have a platform and to have a voice. And was also at a time where techn. I was a working actor, but I wasn't really hitting my big goals in terms of financial success or big roles on a TV show. So those are kind of things that was going on. I was a theater nerd. I was kind of crunchy granola, Pacific Northwest vibes, you know, Birkenstocks, things like that. Still wear Birkenstocks actually.
- [05:49]
E
But I think it's important that you mentioned that you were very familiar with the world of self help and self actualization. So what were you hoping to find, do you think, at this point, this sort of crossroads in your life and career when you first encountered the organization?
- [06:05]
B
I was very open to self help and seminars. My mom had actually put me into an anger management program when I was 16 because going through sort of normal teenage angsty stuff. When I was 27, I was at a crossroads in my career as an actor and also at a time in my relationship at that particular point. Not the person I'm with now, but the serious relationship before that where there was just challenges, normal communication challenges and also really feeling like there was more for me than the acting opportunities. I felt that I had a purpose greater than what I was currently doing. So that really set me up for success, to join a cult, really. Because I also did believe it was possible to grow. And I think there's a lot of people out there that don't think that I guess you'd call it a growth mindset. So that in combination with my desire to be a part of something, you know, when I met Mark Vicente, this filmmaker, and he told me about the community, I thought it sounded great. And truly, if it was what it was supposed to have been, it would have been great. But it wasn't that.
- [07:07]
E
So what did he pitch you on?
- [07:08]
A
He said he went through this program.
- [07:10]
E
And it really changed his life.
- [07:12]
B
Yes. And just for the record, Mark went along this journey with me. He didn't know what it was actually. So it was what it was to him, which was a community of like minded humanitarians, people wanting to change the world, a lot of artists and filmmakers and people who were working together to support each other and their goals. He didn't really have to tell me too much. All I knew is that I loved his film what the Bleep Do We Know? Which was huge at that time. And it was like whatever he was doing, I'm down for it. If he's like, yeah, we're gonna go drink smoothies with these people. I'll be like, sure. Go do yoga. Over. Like, it was sort of like, okay, let's just do this thing. I didn't Google it. Big mistake.
- [07:49]
E
He was, yeah, a real guy like, you met in a setting of really successful people, and that makes all the.
- [07:57]
A
Sense of the world.
- [07:57]
E
So you didn't Google. But later, were there red flags that you would have seen if you had searched the organization?
- [08:05]
B
Yeah, I think if I googled, I probably would have been a little bit more hesitant doing my first five day. But there wasn't a ton of stuff online at that point. Not like there is now. There was a couple articles, but I didn't look at those until day one of my first five day, when things were definitely weird and I had red flags right from the moment I walked in and I contacted Mark and said, what did you get me involved with? And he did to me what I ended up doing to other people, which was, you know, you're going to trust what somebody says on the Internet. Who's never taken the curriculum versus your experience. What's your experience? And I was like, well, truthfully, this is all a little bit weird. You know, we're calling this guy Vanguard. We have to wear sashes. We're bowing to somebody who I've never met. Basically, his response was, I totally get it. Those things were weird. But wait till day three and then decide.
- [08:55]
E
And what happened on day three?
- [08:57]
B
Well, by day three, and I didn't know this at the time, if you're open and wanting to grow, which I was, and not, like, completely closed off, which, you know, I was for the first day, but I also wanted to get my money's worth. And I paid a lot of money. I made, like, over two grand. It was like 2160, which at the time, like, for me, my rent was like 400amonth. It's like months and months of rent, and there's, you know, no refund. So I was like, I'm gonna get my money's worth by day three. What I didn't know is that if you're open, you can actually fully replace the foundations of someone's belief system. So by day three, I had, like, a complete different perspective of not only myself, but the world, and also very positive shifts in terms of who I was, why I wasn't reaching certain goals, what was going on in my relationship at the time. It's like, I had a very clear understanding of, like, all the things I struggled with. And What I needed to do to change it. By day five especially, I was like, okay, I'm in. I want to be a coach. I want to bring this to Canada. I want everyone I know to take this. I was on fire.
- [10:00]
E
You drank all the Kool Aid?
- [10:01]
B
All the Kool Aid, yes.
- [10:03]
E
And what's crazy about red flags is that when you're first going through it, you don't even know that they're red flags. You don't know to pick up on something like that.
- [10:11]
A
You can't see them.
- [10:12]
E
Of course we can in hindsight. But looking back, what do you think some of those big red flags started to be?
- [10:18]
B
One of my favorite lines is, yes, I saw red flags, but I thought I was going to a carnival. So there were things that made me very uncomfortable. But one of the things that the facilitators did, and later I was trained to do the same thing, is to say, you know, you're here to grow. You spent a lot of money. You're going to hit issues. You're paying money to work on your issues. So when you hit those things, you're going to be out of your comfort zone, and you'll have the urge to bolt, to leave. Now, what that's saying is you're going to be uncomfortable, which is true. And this is the thing, is, there is some truth in that. Like, even in therapy, if therapist is getting close to, like, some core wounds, it doesn't necessarily feel good. So their suggestion is to override that. Now, that's very dangerous, because I had many intuitive hits from the beginning that this was weird and not a good place for me. But I overrode it, partly because I had Mark's voice in my head going, just wait till day three. And, you know, like, what could possibly happen in the conference room of a Holiday Inn? Right? Like, you're just sitting here. There's nothing dangerous happening around me, which was true. So I overrode a lot of things, but there was a lot. Let's just see, like, some specific red flags. Yeah. Calling Keith Vanguard and Nancy Prefect and the sashes and being asked to sit and wait and not go to the bathroom if we needed to. I mean, it breaks every few hours, but it was more just like, you're starting to be obedient is one of the very first things. In fact, I'd say the red flag that happened even before I joined is once I said I wanted to take the curriculum where I met Mark Vicente, there was this woman rushing around after me with some paperwork to sign the papers. To get the 48 hour discount. And I was like, I'm going to do it. And she's like, well, do it now and you'll get the discount. Otherwise you might not have the opportunity. Like using pressure tactics to get me to sign up. That was a red flag that I missed. I guess the main red flag is asking us to override our intuition to do what was right. That would be the. From day one.
- [12:18]
E
Yeah, but you didn't even have that language, I'm sure at the time. Pressure tactics like. No, now you know.
- [12:24]
B
Of course now I know. Yes. Which is why I keep doing these podcasts, because I want other people to have the language that I didn't have.
- [12:32]
A
We've been talking about the initial red flag Sarah saw and how she rationalized them away. But what's crucial to understand is that NXIVM was meticulously designed to exploit these rationalizations. It operated less like a spiritual retreat and more like a finely tuned multi level marketing scheme. But instead of selling products, it sold a lifestyle.
- [12:54]
B
If anyone said this is an MLM, the response was, well, MLMs are inherently unethical, therefore this is not an MLM.
- [13:02]
E
Or have products. Yeah, like Mary Kay or whatever.
- [13:06]
B
Yes. Well, I just thought, I think that's so funny that that was sort of our line. The idea was that because Keith is such an ethical humanitarian, of course he wouldn't create an unethical product. Therefore it was not an mlm. But yeah, it was set up like an mlm. You were invited to take a training and whoever invited you would be your sponsor. And then if you wanted to take a training and then go home and not do anything else, I'd be fine. And there are lots of people who did that who just took a five day training. And I guess they would have said, that's the product. So let's say I invited you, Nicole, and Nicole takes a five day. And they're like, this is amazing. I want to be a coach like you are, Sarah, and I be great. All you need to do is enroll two people. So then you'd enroll two people. And once you had, then you could apply to be a coach. So being a coach meant you were also what they called growing your organization. Same thing as in pyramid schemes and MLMs. And then there was different levels of growth. Like if you wanted to become a proctor, which is the level of orange sash where you actually can earn income from teaching or facilitating or doing any of the career paths within nxivm, you would have to have one of or two I don't remember all the details anymore. It's been a while. But I think it was two of your people become coaches and you had to have their people grow people. So you'd have 17 people overall that you were growing to become a proctor. And there's a similar standards to be met for senior proctor and counselor and senior counselor, all the different ranks which are totally the same as like gold, diamond, emerald, and in every single mlm.
- [14:38]
E
And what was the financial incentive or kickback for bringing on new people?
- [14:43]
B
It changed it throughout. So actually when I signed up, I didn't know this, but I found out at my first five day that if I were to recruit or like they called it, enroll, which was synonymous, a Nexon for building humanity, by the way. So if I were to build humanity by bringing in three people, I could get a refund for my five day, which I did because I am a natural enroller. I'm very good at telling people, you know, oh, I'm doing this green juice cleanse or I'm taking yoga over here. I just, you know, love to give unsolicited advice. It's a problem of mine. I'm working on it. So I of course, was telling all my friends, you need to take this program. It's so good. And of course I brought my three people in and I had my money back and I said, keep it. I want to use that to take more curriculum. So I use that refund to take the next chunk of training. Because of course it wasn't just the five day, which is what I thought I was signing up for. It's actually the beginning of a 16 day training. And of course it doesn't end there. That's just level one, then there's level two. At least every year there was new programs that Keith was rolling out. And as a leader, I had to take more and more and more curriculum. So I was spending so much money. So it was incentive for me to finance my education with nxivm, which is to recruit. So I did my three people and then they're like, wow, you're doing so well. If you bring in six people, you can become a salesperson. So a salesperson meant that you would get, I think, 20%. So if they spent, you know, 2,000, whatever on a training, you'd earn 500 bucks. So it's pretty good commissions for sales. And that was what I ended up doing. I ended up doing that. And until I became a proctor. And then with proctor you also get 10%. I mean, I could spend A whole hour just going into the finances. I know that's one of the themes of your podcast, but the financial mind. Can I swear on this podcast? Go for it. Okay. The financial mind fuckery of it all is pretty crazy because what I've since learned is that with MLMs, psychologists know that the average person will bring in. I think it's like 2.8 people is the average. Obviously you can't bring in 8/10 of a person or whatever the math is, but that's the average. So for me to bring in six people to become a salesperson, like, I was one of the few who could do that. And I'm not trying to brag about that as a skill set. Like, I'm not proud that I'm good at it. It's just one of the things that I'm good at. So then they used me as a golden child, sort of like the poster girl for like, well, Sarah can do it, you can do it. And most people couldn't hit those numbers. So they were like struggling to hit the salesperson quota. Six people in six months. So one person a month you have to bring in and you have to maintain that in order to keep running your percentage. So most people were kind of treading water, bringing in what Keith called, you know, fresh meat to the company, not earning their percentage. But who's earning the percentage? The people above. Right. Which is usually what the sort of scam element is of these pyramids is that the people at the top are making the money and then there's a bunch of worker bees struggling. And it's also why most people didn't get to the next level coach or proctor, because they couldn't hit those milestones. They may have been excellent coaches, wonderful rapport, able to help people through their goals, but if they weren't good recruiters, they would stagnate on that path.
- [17:52]
D
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- [18:19]
G
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- [18:50]
A
NEXIA members were incentivized to recruit, but the system was designed so that only a fraction of people actually made money. The vast majority were caught in a cycle of dependency, constantly spending on new training and seminars to keep their status, often going into massive debt in the process. And this financial dependence was a key component of the psychological control.
- [19:16]
B
Even for somebody like me, who's one of the few that did make money, I still spent like hundreds of thousands of dollars, so much money on curriculum even that like the higher level stuff that came later, I was there for 12 years would be like $15,000 for a genes, which is a women's program. It's 35 day training spread out over a few months. 15k for a curriculum or like 10k for the at cause when you're learning personal responsibility, all these total bullshit programs. So even though I was making money, I was still now financially dependent because that was my income and I'd cut off all my other options. I wasn't acting very much anymore and had become more and more isolated within that community. Because that's part of the thing is that yes, I was making money, but if I wanted to coach people outside of the nexum community, I wasn't allowed to do that. I wasn't allowed to be a life coach for other people. Wasn't a successful cult, you know, millions of people. It was like less than 20,000 people went through in their 20 years of business in total, which is not a lot.
- [20:15]
E
So net net, you think you still came out ahead?
- [20:18]
B
Um, it's hard to say. I've never done a spreadsheet. I maybe a little bit, but like at the end, after all the lawyer's fees and everything at the end, so it felt like I was just starting again. But I will say the other aspect of dependency is that for people like myself that didn't make money, they always offered what would they called work exchanges, ethical value exchanges. So for example, somebody like me who came in with nothing, they wanted me to attend V week, Vanguard Week's 10 day birthday extravaganza, which at the time cost I think two or $3,000. And my boyfriend and then I at the time didn't have the money and he was a filmmaker. So they're like well, you can film it. And Sarah, you can be his assistant, which is ridiculous because I had no experience labeling tapes and, you know, carrying around his gear for him. But they wanted to give us a job so that we would attend. So they did these things called ethical value exchanges. So a lot of people were in charge of like doing the grunt work at V week or at a training. So like if I was doing a 16 day training and I wanted to staff it, then headquarters would send a bunch of people who owed money but weren't paying money. They were working off their hours. So let's say they'd gotten a $10,000 curriculum for free. Cause they were attending it and they were working it, like putting out the toilet paper and cleaning up afterwards and laying out the food and photocopying the notes. But they still owed. The ethical value exchange was very skewed. So in other words, they always owed more money, they always owed more hours, and they were always just working, working, working, trying to pay off what they'd been given for free. Those people were the worst off, I'm sure. Yeah.
- [21:49]
E
And you mentioned litigation. A lot of former members have talked about how nexivm used litigation themselves.
- [21:55]
B
Yes.
- [21:56]
E
To drain and destroy critics. Can you talk about how the organization.
- [22:00]
A
Leveraged its own wealth?
- [22:02]
E
And I know comp to others might not be as wealthy, but they used whatever they had and legal power to silence dissent and maintain control.
- [22:12]
B
Yes. Weaponizing the legal system was something they were notorious for doing. We didn't know that's what was going on at the time. We thought we were fighting our enemies, but really what they were doing is going after anyone who was speaking against Nexium, dragging them through court. And like, that didn't happen to me because we kind of got ahead of it. And we can get to that, but we saw that happen to other people. And there's women who left in 2009 who, I don't remember the stats, but like thousands and thousands of dollars and hours upon hours of time spent in court and things being thrown out and appeals being rewritten and just like, just to keep the, you know, to drain the lawyers fees and that kind of thing, like, just to keep everybody on the hamster wheel of that system so that they eventually give up.
- [22:55]
E
And what was the final turning point for you? What led you and some of the other whistleblowers at the time to start comparing notes and realize what was really going on with this group?
- [23:06]
B
There's a lot of things that happen over the years, and it wasn't one Particular. I mean, there was one particular thing, but there's a lot of things that led up to that. And ultimately, and I wasn't really cognizant of this at the time, I'd gotten married at the decision not supported by nxivm because it meant that I was being pulled away and I was happy. They didn't really want us to be happy. Ultimately, they wanted us to be in our issues so that we'd keep taking more curriculum. But I was happy. I had a baby. Now you know how fulfilling and also time consuming that is and kind of like sets your priorities straight. So I was pulling away. It's a long series of things that happen to this point, but ultimately they, I say they, the leadership could feel me pulling away and finding my happiness elsewhere. So they a promoted me to Green Sash, which was something I'd been working on for a really long time and had no end in sight. So they gave me what I wanted. And then after that, and I started to pull away again. They invited me to a secret women's group, which I was told with nothing to do with Nexium. Again, a lot of steps in that process that are very difficult to explain, even especially in a one hour podcast. But I basically said yes to a top secret women's group that was supposed to hold me accountable and take my growth to the next level, which I felt like I needed because I had stagnated. And so I felt like this would be great. I was invited by my best friend, who was also my bridesmaid and in this context, sort of my therapist, somebody I really, really, really admired. And basically I was blackmailed into a group that I thought I was getting a tattoo in, which was not a tattoo, it was a brand.
- [24:41]
A
Sarah's story took a particularly dark turn when she was invited into a secret women's group. On the surface, it was pitched as an exclusive sorority for a female empowerment and accountability. But what she didn't realize was that it was a master slave pyramid structure. And the ultimate master was Keith Rainier. He required women to give up collateral, like embarrassing photos or videos that could be used to blackmail them into total obedience.
- [25:13]
B
I became a slave. Yeah. And in my mind, you know, I'm in Vancouver, my master is in New York, so I'm like, I'm not really a slave. This is like a. An exercise. I've never been in a sorority, but I've since done episodes on our podcast where people are like, yeah, there's the person above you, and you're like getting haze and you're, like, going to do these ridiculous, demeaning things. You know, it's like a shtick. It's not like you're really the person's subordinate for life, but that's just sort of what you do in a sorority. It felt like that. In fact, they called it a sorority, the top secret sorority. So now I have a master, I'm a slave, and I was supposed to get a tattoo as a part of a initiation ceremony. Keep in mind, and like I said, there's a lot of steps that led to this and why people go, like, wait, what? Like, what'd you do? Like, how could you let that. If you don't understand coercive control and how 12 years of indoctrination can work on somebody, it's very difficult. So actually, why I wrote my memoir, because I wanted to get it all out in step by step so people could go along that journey with me and understand why I said yes at the end. But, yeah, just to join the group, I had to give collateral, which is a term that nxivm used early on for years before Keith set it up that way. So that when I was asked to give collateral to keep it secret, it was like, not a big deal, because everyone gave collateral as, like, proof that you were committed. And if you strayed off the path, your collateral would be like, $200. We are going to go to the Salvation Army. Because I didn't complete my goals. Like, people were putting their money where their mouth was in that sense. So I'd given collateral, but then that was used against me in the moment of me being like, yeah, I don't really actually want a tattoo. I have no tattoos. And my master is saying, well, you committed to. Part of the being in the sorority is it was a vow of obedience. So I had to do whatever she said, and I even asked her before signing up, but what is that? Like, rob a bank? What if you tell me to rob a bank? I don't want to rob a bank. She's like, no, it's going to be things that are good for your growth. I'm not going to ask you to do something illegal or unethical. It's going to be like, you know, these are some things you can do. And in fact, some of the initial activities and assignments were great and helpful in my life. But the night of the ceremony, I found out that it was a brand, which I didn't even know people did to humans. I thought that was something that animals got, like a farmer gives to their cattle. To say, like, this cattle belongs on this pasture as mine. And I'm not gonna go into the details of that. Cause even eight years later, it's still kind of triggering for me. But it was a very painful. It was without anesthetic. It was under my bathing suit line, so, like, you couldn't see it with, like, under underwear. That was filmed and that was given as more collateral so that now I understand. I didn't understand the time. It's just to make sure everyone feels, like, thoroughly ashamed to never say anything about it and to keep you quiet. Actually, it wasn't the branding specifically that snapped me out of the 12 year Kool Aid dream, but it was finding out that the symbol in my body was a mashup of Keith Renieri, the leader of NXIVM's initials on my body. And so that's what pulled me back to reality. So when you said, what woke you up or what? How'd you figure it out? That moment was very specifically key. People had called us a cult for many years. And I always joked it off, you know, laughed it off, saying, well, this is a cult. It's happy, successful people. And I'm. Look at my life. It's great. And now all of those accusations came to the fore of, like, okay, well, those are true. Even actually in the night of the branding, I said, guys, like, people think we're a call already. Like, this is terrible marketing. Like, this is not a good idea. I did voice that, even though I was going along with it, that in conjunction with having very forthright conversations with other people who were waking up and leaving. Mark, the filmmaker I told you about, who got me in, he was one of those people. He was actually living in Albany at the time and started to see that things were getting very weird with a lot of the women and didn't know what it was. So he broached that with me. And then I was able to kind of fill him in. And he revealed to me that some women had come to him and told him about a secret group and that sex was involved. So that was really like the. The period of time when I figured out that, like, Keith was not a celibate renunciate, which is what we'd been told about him, which is, I cannot believe that we ever thought that he was a celibate monk. That was just part of his facade. When that cover was blown, I knew about the branding, Mark knew about the sex. And then we were able to put together actually what was going on behind closed doors, which is why we decided to become whistleblowers with a group of others, my husband Mark, Crescente's wife. And that was what we brought to the authorities. And ultimately what we were whistleblowing on was terrible. But there was way worse that we didn't even know about.
- [29:47]
E
What was it like when you first met Keith? I assume it was much earlier than when you got his initials.
- [29:54]
B
No, I'd met him 12 years before. I wasn't part of his inner, inner circle, so I didn't have that much time with him. But my perception of him changed over the years. I remember when I first met him thinking he was like short and schlubby and unkempt and a bit unassuming and very normal, like sort of a normal volleyball playing nerd. And then a couple years later, they give him a makeover and they cut his hair and they put him in polo shirts and he kind of looked a little bit more professorial. And over time I felt more comfortable with him. But generally, especially in the early years, I was very intimidated by him. I always kept him at a distance, mostly because I was like, what could I possibly say to him? Like, he's the smartest man in the world. And he. You felt very vulnerable around him because if you believed that he created this incredible curriculum that changed all these people's lives and that he was able to see people's issues. Like you felt very kind of exposed with him and he'd like look you deeply in the eyes and he'd do this eye gazing thing and you feel very. It was like when he was had his attention on you, the world stopped because he was so attentive and he was really good at rapport and making you feel seen, which I've since heard from other women who are had sexual relationships with him, that that's really what his entry point was. He listened to them, he held space for them to share in a way they'd never experienced before. He made them feel special. And I didn't do any of that with him. I've just. This is what I've heard from other women. But I definitely can say that when he was looking at you, you felt very connected.
- [31:24]
E
And when did you realize that he wasn't this Dalai Lama monk esque figure who didn't have possessions and didn't have sex and all the other stuff you.
- [31:35]
B
Were told, I realized that he was, you know, that was all a facade. When I had that conversation with Mark, which would have been in May of 2017, shortly after I'd been branded and before we left publicly. But figuring out, like, there's a lot of people that we speak to on our podcast who kind of wake up slowly and they question things and they talk to ex members like, this happened very quickly. My world unraveled very fast. And it was a massive betrayal. And it was very destabilizing and ungrounding because I'd been vouching for this guy for 12 years and then to find out that not only was he not who he said he was, but he's the opposite of what he said he was.
- [32:10]
A
After Sarah escaped nxivm, she became the central figure in a major New York Times economic expose about the group. But going public with her story was a terrifying decision, especially knowing the organization's history for weaponizing legal action and personal attacks against its critics. So what was it like for her to face the potential of retaliation?
- [32:33]
B
It was terrifying. And at that time, I did not say those words. I would say things like, in my experience, this group was problematic because it blah, blah, blah, blah, like I was less defaming and more neutral in my passing on of information. But now that we all know about what Keith did, it's.
- [32:48]
E
I don't.
- [32:48]
B
And he's in jail. I don't have to worry about that. But at the time, it was terrifying. I mean, all of us whistleblowers were. I put extra locks on my doors in my apartment in Vancouver. We were certain we were being surveilled. We didn't know what they were going to do or when or how. But one of the leadership members in, I'm not going to say her name, flew to Vancouver and tried to get me arrested through the Vancouver police. I think if I'd been in America, I would have been in a different situation. But she tried to get me arrested. She made up a bunch of charges that were all untrue. And the police looked into it and I had to hire a criminal defense lawyer just to deal with that. And I wasn't really thinking about, like any of the long term effects. I just knew that I had the brand of my body, which is why I became sort of the face of it all. What happened to other women in many ways was worse than what happened to me. But I had the proof and I was also willing to show it. And really what the brand was was a physical manifestation of many years of emotional abuse. I felt like I was able to do it and I had a responsibility to do that, partly because I'd brought in so many people. I'd been a recruiter for so many years. And a lot of the women that were still in and loyal to him and branded and also having sex with Keith were there either directly because of me or indirectly because of me. So I was like, this is what I have to do. I was just thinking about shutting it down and making sure that it was exposed and that nexium ended and these women were freed. That was my goal. Not like, how is this gonna affect my kids when they go to school and the principal Googles. I didn't. I wasn't really thinking about the long term effects. Just like, we gotta do what we have to do.
- [34:26]
E
Is there any way to get the brand off?
- [34:30]
B
I've actually had plastic surgery and it's gone. I left it on for about three years and I tried to do a bunch of different things and eventually got very. It used to be quite keloid and raised and ugly and I got it very flat and white. But when you looked in the mirror, you could still see kr. So I had plastic surgery there. Actually, I don't even know who this was, but somebody contacted my lawyer and said they wanted to pay for the plastic surgery and I had it removed. And basically they just cut out like an eye shape around the square, like a 2 inch by 2 inch square. And then they sewed it up. So it's like this thin white line looks a little bit like a cesarean scar.
- [35:04]
H
But off to the left@blinds.com, it's not just about window treatments. It's about you, your style, your space, your way. Whether you DIY or want the pros to handle it all, you'll have the confidence of knowing it's done right. From free expert design help to our 100% satisfaction guarantee, everything we do is made to fit your life and your windows. Because@blinds.com, the only thing we choose treat better than windows is you. Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off with minimum purchase plus a professional measure at no cost. Rules and restrictions apply.
- [35:35]
I
Fear is the virus is trending on TikTok. Vaccines are poison. Then your yoga teacher says that sex trafficked children are being sacrificed by satanic liberals. But it's all okay. The great awakening is coming. What is happening? Every week on Conspirituality Podcast, we explore the fever dreams that suck. Friends, family and wellness gurus down the right wing cult spiral in a search for salvation.
- [36:08]
A
Sarah's decision to expose nxivm came from what she personally experienced. The physical and emotional abuse of the branding. But after she became became A whistleblower. She learned that what happened to her was only the tip of the iceberg. The full truth revealed during the criminal trial was far more disturbing than she could have ever imagined.
- [36:32]
B
Oh, my goodness. There's six weeks of transcripts from that trial that blew my mind. And I didn't have to go in the end. Originally, I was supposed to testify, but they didn't need me to in the end, thank goodness, because I was breastfeeding my newborn at the time. That would have been quite traumatic. But we found out about one woman who was kept in a room for months at a time. Granted, the door was unlocked. It's an emotional concept of her entrapment. Like, they took it. She was Mexican. They took away all her papers and told her she had to stay until she. I forget what it was specifically, but, like, basically repented, resolved her issues, apologized, and there were women who were promised babies who never got them. There was a married woman who was forced to perform oral sex with Keith. There was just horrendous, disgusting things, emotional and physical and spiritual manipulation and abuse going on for years even before I even got there.
- [37:27]
E
And in retrospect, what do you think is ultimately the biggest lesson to be learned from your experience in Xiom? I mean, particularly for our audience who might be interested in seeing some of the early warning signs of scams or deceptive organizations or even just knowing what kind of organizations those could be when they seem legit.
- [37:48]
B
Yeah, I'd say, like, one of the things I always tell people now is research. And you can find a lot of things online, especially Reddit, is blank, a cult. And you'll find people's stories or documentaries or memoirs or Reddit threads. And the thing that I'd say is that if you have that, don't go to the group, because the leadership, of course, will say, of course it's not a cult. Of course, like, we're look out, look around, we're so happy and we love you and. But then you're on the radar as a potential defector, and that could be dangerous. So I would say if you have that thought, talk to ex members who aren't happy. And my thing with that is that when where there's smoke, there's fire, because we heard about defectors, but we were told that they were crazy or is a woman scorned who was in love with Keith but couldn't be with him. And I see that time and time again with the groups that we cover, where people leave. And the organization's response is to say, well, they're bipolar or, you know, borderline personality disorder, or they're crazy or they're an ex lover or whatever. So like the organization's response to dissenters is a key thing. And then there's lots of red flags, I would say, for people who are in a group. If they're feeling uncomfortable with something, they should definitely trust that. And there's actually a book that my husband and I are writing now to understand the whole template, like how people get in, how what the playbook is of these groups and then also how to get out, how to whistleblower flow, how to navigate the media, how to write a book. And then also at the end, there's green flags. What to look for? Can you ask questions without being gaslit? Can you leave and be part of the community without being shunned? Like any group that shuns people, ignores, doesn't speak to or discredits people who leave. It's highly problematic. Is there financial transparency? Can people, you know, especially question the leader? There's lots of things to look for, green flags to look for and red flags to look for.
- [39:42]
E
Are there organizations that you feel fit those red flags or even beige flags that you are warning people about now?
- [39:54]
B
Oh yeah, there's so many. There's so many. And one of my most common interactions I have with people that look at what happened to me. And for the most part people are pretty compassionate or empathetic and like, oh, that would never happen to me. But I'm so glad that you're out. I would have seen those red flags. And you may have with Nexium, but then they tell me that they're like in TM Transcendental meditation, they have a mantra and I'm like, that's a cult. I mean your mantra is fine, but like if you keep going up that path, that's a full on cult. There's culty things that like, are problematic for me, like CrossFit, you know, that aren't necessarily a cult or soul cycle, but are culty and can have unhealthy toxic elements to them that people don't know. Like what's the line here of being something healthy or not healthy? Which is kind of what I'm steering towards now. Like cult has become overused and people throw it around really easily. And there's a pretty specific checklist of things that can make it a destructive cult versus, you know, pickleball is a little bit culty, but I think you're probably gonna be okay if you play pickleball, right? But you Might join a group where you feel like a little bit shamed. If you don't attend practice, then like don't go to that group. You know what I mean? You just like, you have to learn what's healthy and not healthy versus culty or not culty. I think anything political that anyone feels like they're so attached to that they won't speak to people who don't have the same beliefs as them. That's problematic. Whatever side of the aisle you're on. Like, we should be having dialogue, not isolated echo chambers of people who think the same.
- [41:33]
E
And what about financial red flags in particular?
- [41:36]
B
Financial red flags, I'd say. You know, the thing I mentioned at the beginning, being pressured to sign up is a real financial red flag. If there's like any kind of. And this isn't a lot of sales, so it's unfortunate. But like, you know, 24 hour discounts or like something to induce a sense of FOMO, like you're not going to have this in 24 hours or a week from now. This is the only time you can get it. And any kind of workshop or seminar has that at the end. Like sign up now and you can get the next thing for this amount. It's done all the time. But I guess my advice would be like, if you really want to do it, it'll be there next month and then you'll know if you really want to do it. Because people like Nexium and people who are trying to get you to keep paying know that it's better to get you while you're still excited. Right. And to keep that momentum up. So maybe go home and think about it.
- [42:24]
E
And part of your quest during that time in your life was to figure out a new career path. Do you look back and think what you could have done with all those years or what kind of business you could have built? Because it sounds like you wanted to be an entrepreneur.
- [42:40]
B
Yes, in fact, I was very entrepreneurial even from a young age. I had little businesses and like I sold jewelry and babysitting. Like I love to do that kind of stuff. And I, I guess I still am, although I'm a gun shy now with sales because I bet on the wrong horse. But yeah, no, I think about it all the time. I think about lost opportunities, friendships. I mean, I hustled hard in my 30s. I was there from 27, just about turned 28 till I turned 40. So I lost my entire 30s to that organization. In many ways, I feel like I'm here. I met my husband I have two beautiful boys. I wouldn't change anything, but it's hard to, you know. Of course I wouldn't have agreed to get branded. Of course I wouldn't. There's the trajectory of my life was going in a certain direction. I always wonder what I would have done or accomplished or built like, for a legitimate company had I not taken that path.
- [43:31]
E
I think it's easy for people to say that they would have done it differently or they would have, you know, smelled the fishiness that you didn't. What do you say back to those people?
- [43:44]
B
I say, I'm really happy for you that you would have dodged this bullet. But I guarantee it that in the right place at the right time, with, like, certain emotional susceptibility, especially when people are in a crossroads or after divorce or a change of job, the right person at the right time can con you, can trick you. And if you don't know what your personal susceptibility is, then you are more susceptible than anybody else. I know what my susceptibility is. I know I'm also a people pleaser. I know that when things were weird, I didn't say anything because I didn't want to rock the boat or be rude. So that's something in me that, like, I still have to navigate. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to join a cult, but I've missed red flags with other situations in business where I give people the benefit of the doubt, where I like, you know, did he just say that to me? Now he must be having a bad day and I let something go that I should have been like, no, we're not doing business together anymore. That's actually back to your earlier question. In terms of advice, I would say when people show you who they are, believe them. And if you think something's not a good fit, like if you're doing business with somebody and you don't feel good around them, whether it's cult or like a group or any sort of business interaction, like, if you don't feel like you can be yourself or you feel any kind of, I don't know what this person's deal is, don't work with them, trust that. Because it's not going to get better.
- [45:06]
E
Yeah, I think it's really easy to be a genius in hindsight. And I think we've all felt vulnerable at different points in our lives, to be duped in a lot of different ways. The full spectrum of cultiness, and that's just the human experience. These are really elaborate psychological Schemes and scams that we can all fall prey to and fall victim to. How do you feel like your experience over this really critical decade of your life has now followed you? You mentioned very briefly that principal of your kids school googled it. Does that come up a lot for you? What's that like?
- [45:48]
B
Yeah, I mean, partly the move from Vancouver to Atlanta was a bit of the sort of fresh start that we needed a few years ago. Generally I found that people here, especially those who'd seen the Vow, which documented the whole thing on hbo, that was like actually helpful for me because they knew so much about what I'd been through and I didn't have to explain myself. I'd say generally it's a way for someone to say, like if I tell people I was in a cult and I got out of a cult and they're weird about it, like, we can't really be friends.
- [46:17]
E
Yeah, it's like self selecting.
- [46:18]
B
It's self selecting. Thank you. And if I tell them and they're like, oh wow, like I might love True crime and call it oh yeah, next time. I heard about that, like it's, it's just makes it easier and it's just not going to be this way forever, I hope. But it is a big part of who I am. And even on the other side of it, you know, having a podcast about cults and trying to educate people and shine light here, and even since we started our podcast four years ago, there's so much more content in this space. People, I think, really do want to understand and learn so that doesn't happen to them. And I'm happy to be part of that. It's just if people are weirded out, then they're not your people. They're not my people, exactly. So it's, it's helped me in many ways to find my people. And a lot of those people are people who've been through something similar. Whether it's an abusive relationship or you know, some financial scam that they fell for, which by the way happens. I mean, you probably know more than I do on that. But like that's something that I've, I've heard a lot people saying to me, like I, well, I didn't fall for that, but I, you know, my best friend con like half a million dollars out of me on an investment and like, like, you know, things like that all the time. And they, but they don't, people don't talk about it because they're so embarrassed.
- [47:26]
A
Are you still scared?
- [47:28]
E
What scares you now? Are you scared of it sounds like you have one woman that you're scared of.
- [47:35]
B
I like sometimes if my anxiety gets the best of me, I imagine it's One of the 20 people who are still loyal to Keith. And yes, there are people who still think that he is good and we, the whistleblowers are bad. And, you know, we were attention seeking or whatever. They have to tell themselves to ignore what we were trying to point out, that one of them might go off the rails and do something violent. But it was a nonviolent organization. Actually, I was laughing because I was listening to your episode about WeWork and listening to how what's his face?
- [48:07]
E
Adam Newman.
- [48:08]
B
Adam, thank you. Adam decided they were going to be vegetarian. Keith did the same thing. This was a vegetarian company and everyone was supposed to be vegetarian because we're nonviolent. So if anybody decides to be violent towards me, then that means they're not practicing his principles. So that makes me feel a little bit safer. But they've done other things to try to screw up people's lives. I'm more scared of any potential legal thing that could happen. But I feel like with Keith in jail for 120 years, that any attempts to do something like that against me would be countered by any lawyer saying, well, what about this? But who knows? I was terrified for a long time of Keith because he is so manipulative and conniving that he would find some loophole. That was actually one of his main strategies was trying to prove that the FBI planted evidence in his case. And there was a whole thing about that. But that's been debunked multiple times by many people, but they keep harping on it. So it's like I feel like he could do something like that where he could get a new trial and that, I don't know, like that kind of thing.
- [49:11]
E
Sarah, thank you so much for being here and sharing your story.
- [49:14]
B
Thank you so much.
- [49:21]
A
Scams, Money and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios. My guest today was Sarah Edmondson. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your continued support. If you like what you heard here today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And for ad free listening plus early access and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. This episode was brought to life by the Scams money and murder Team Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Stacey Warrenker, Sarah Camp and Paul Libeskin.