INTERVIEW: Pernilla Sjöholm & Cecilie Fjellhøy, Tinder Swindler Victims

Summary

Scams, Money & Murder: INTERVIEW with Pernilla Sjöholm & Cecilie Fjellhøy, Tinder Swindler Victims

Release Date: May 1, 2025
Host: Nicole Lapin
Podcast: Crime House Studios

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Scams, Money & Murder, host Nicole Lapin sits down with Cecilia Felhoy and Pernilla Sjöholm, two courageous women who fell victim to the infamous "Tinder Swindler," Simon Levy. Their harrowing stories shed light on the sophisticated tactics employed by fraudsters and the profound emotional and financial toll such schemes can take on victims.

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The Allure of Simon Levy

Cecilia Felhoy begins by recounting how Simon initially captivated her:

"[04:02] Cecilia Felhoy: I went on a date with him, and it was proper love bombing at the start, you know, extravagant gifts and talking about the future very early on."

Cecilia, a self-proclaimed "hopeless romantic," found herself drawn into Simon's lavish lifestyle, characterized by private jets and designer gifts. This intense initial phase made it difficult for her to recognize the looming threat.

Pernilla Sjellom echoes similar sentiments:

"[05:22] Pernilla Sjellom: He was very good at creating an instant connection. After spending a day with him, it felt like I had known him for over 10 years."

Their shared experiences highlight Simon's ability to manipulate emotions, fostering deep bonds that laid the groundwork for his deceit.

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The Unraveling: Signs of the Scam

The turning point for both women came when Simon began to fabricate crises to extract money:

Cecilia describes receiving a distressing message that signaled the beginning of the scam:

"[13:13] Cecilia Felhoy: He sent me a threatening email saying, 'We know you, your friends, your family. Every action is going to be a reaction.'"

This message was a clear red flag, pushing Cecilia to start questioning Simon's authenticity. Similarly, Pernilla details her skepticism when a check Simon provided didn't arrive:

"[20:00] Pernilla Sjellom: When I brought the check to my bank, they said everything looked fine, but later I realized it was fake."

Despite these warning signs, both victims found themselves ensnared deeper into the scam due to emotional manipulation and the fear of losing everything they had invested.

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Emotional and Financial Toll

The aftermath of the scam was devastating for both women, leading to severe emotional distress and financial ruin.

Pernilla openly discusses her struggle with suicidal thoughts:

"[24:56] Pernilla Sjellom: I was suicidal. I was so bad."

Cecilia shares her experience of being institutionalized and facing legal battles:

"[46:54] Cecilia Felhoy: My mom had to put me into an acute psychiatric ward because I knew my life was over."

The psychological impact of such scams extends far beyond financial loss, leaving victims grappling with guilt, shame, and a shattered sense of trust.

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Taking a Stand: Fighting Back

Refusing to be silenced, both Cecilia and Pernilla decided to take action against Simon Levy, aiming to prevent others from falling into his trap.

Cecilia recalls her determination to expose Simon despite the personal cost:

"[29:58] Cecilie Felhoy: I told Simon, 'This isn't fair. I'm going to continue doing this.'"

Pernilla emphasizes the importance of collaboration in combating fraud:

"[33:56] Pernilla Sjellom: We knew the only way to stop him was for people to know about him."

Their relentless efforts led to media coverage and increased awareness, ultimately contributing to Simon's arrest, though it fell short of delivering true justice.

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Systemic Failures and the Quest for Justice

A significant portion of the discussion addresses the shortcomings of financial institutions and law enforcement in handling such sophisticated frauds.

Cecilia expresses frustration over the lack of support:

"[41:20] Cecilia Felhoy: Justice was not served. Simon was released just a few months later."

Pernilla critiques the systemic failures that allowed Simon to evade comprehensive justice:

"[44:01] Pernilla Sjellom: Simon has active cases in Germany, the UK, the Netherlands, Sweden, and Spain. It's insanity that he was let go."

Their experiences underscore the need for systemic reforms to better protect and support victims of complex financial scams.

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Advocacy and Moving Forward

In the wake of their trauma, both women channel their experiences into advocacy, striving to educate and support others.

Pernilla discusses her entrepreneurial efforts to prevent identity fraud:

"[45:39] Pernilla Sjellom: I created my own identity verification company, idfy, to help people check someone's identity peer-to-peer."

Cecilia highlights her nonprofit work aimed at supporting romance fraud victims:

"[47:26] Cecilia Felhoy: I co-founded a nonprofit for romance fraud victims, working with police and financial institutions to conduct workshops."

Their initiatives aim to provide resources, raise awareness, and foster a supportive community for those affected by similar scams.

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Reflections on Healing and Closure

While both women have made significant strides in their healing journeys, the scars of their experiences linger.

Cecilia acknowledges the ongoing challenges:

"[53:52] Cecilia Felhoy: Sometimes talking about it is draining, but knowing we can help others makes it worth it."

Pernilla shares her sense of fulfillment from helping others and building a new life:

"[54:42] Pernilla Sjellom: I feel great and have moved on by focusing on my company and family."

Their shared resilience serves as a testament to the human spirit's capacity to overcome even the most devastating ordeals.

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Conclusion

Cecilia Felhoy and Pernilla Sjellom's stories not only highlight the intricate methods employed by fraudsters like Simon Levy but also illuminate the profound personal and systemic challenges faced by victims. Through their unwavering determination to seek justice and advocate for change, they transform their pain into a powerful force for good. This episode serves as a stark reminder that scams can masquerade as genuine connections, and vigilance, coupled with systemic support, is essential in combating such deceit.

"[62:11] Nicole Lapin: What happened to you both wasn't just about stolen money. It was about stolen trust, stolen identity, and stolen peace... Your story is such a reminder that scams don't always have to look like a shady phone call or a fake investment. Sometimes, they can look like love."

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Key Takeaways

• Psychological Manipulation: Fraudsters often use love bombing and extravagant gestures to build trust rapidly.
• Systemic Failures: Financial institutions and law enforcement may lack the tools and awareness to effectively combat sophisticated scams.
• Emotional Impact: Victims may experience severe psychological distress, including suicidal thoughts and feelings of shame.
• Advocacy and Support: Sharing stories and building supportive communities can aid in healing and preventing future scams.
• Need for Reform: There's an urgent need for systemic changes to better protect victims and hold fraudsters accountable.

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Notable Quotes:

• "[04:02] Cecilia Felhoy: I think it was proper love bombing at the start, you know, extravagant gifts and talking about the future very early on."

• "[24:56] Pernilla Sjellom: I was suicidal. I was so bad."

• "[41:20] Cecilia Felhoy: Justice was not served. Simon was released just a few months later."

• "[45:39] Pernilla Sjellom: I created my own identity verification company, idfy, to help people check someone's identity peer-to-peer."

• "[62:11] Nicole Lapin: Your story is such a reminder that scams don't always have to look like a shady phone call or a fake investment. Sometimes, they can look like love."

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and emotional journey shared by Cecilia and Pernilla, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of their experiences and the broader implications of financial scams.

Transcript

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Foreign.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

This is Crime House.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Isn't it weird to lose £200,000 to one guy in 54 days? Am I the only one that thinks that this is not normal?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I have been sitting on a dinner with five people who have been literally just out there to defrauding me and destroying my life.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

This is what fraudsters are doing. They're using the victim's hands and actions and words. But of course in these instances, it doesn't get better, it only gets worse.

[Nicole Lapin]

As they say, money makes the world go round. What many don't talk about is the time it made people's worlds come to a screeching halt. Whether it's greed, desperation or a thirst for power, money can make even the most unassuming people do unthinkable things. And sometimes those acts can be deadly. This is Scams, Money and Murder A Crime House Original I'm your host Nicole Lapin. Every Thursday we alternate between covering infamous money motivated crimes and gripping interviews with the experts or those who are directly involved themselves. Crime House exists because of you. Please rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts and for early ad, free access and bonus content, subscribe to Crime on Apple Podcasts. Crime House Studios has released its first audiobook called Murder in the Media. Told through the lens of five heart pounding murder cases, this thrilling audiobook traces the evolving and sometimes insidious role the media has had in shaping true crime storytelling. Murder in the Media is a Crime House Original audiobook. Find it now on Spotify. Just got a new puppy or kitten. Congrats. But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats and those first few vet visits, you've probably already dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet Insurance comes in. It helps cover vet costs so you.

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[Cecilia Felhoy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

Hey there, and welcome to Scams, Money, and Murder. Today's episode is one that captivated the world. A story of online dating, extravagant lies, and international deceit. You might know it from the viral Netflix documentary the Tinder Swindler. My guests today are Cecilia Felhoy and Pernilla Hoholm, two incredibly brave women who came forward to share their stories. Stories after being conned by Simon Levy, a man who posed as the son of a diamond mogul and lived a life of private jets, designer clothes, and fabricated danger, all funded by his victims. What started as a modern love story quickly spiraled into a nightmare. But out of it came resilience, friendship, and a mission to help others. Cecilia, let's start at the very beginning. In the documentary, you call yourself a bit of a Tinder expert as well as a hopeless romantic. I don't think we need to focus on what attracted you to Simon. I. I'm more interested in understanding how he gained your confidence and trust.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah, I think it's human nature. I think you're always vulnerable when you go out on a date, when you're looking for love, when you're on a dating app and trying to find love, I think that's the thing. And, yeah, I went on a date with him, and it was proper love bombing at the start, you know, or extravagant gifts and talking about the future very early on. And I was. I was 29, 30 years old, and I was, like, ready to settle down, and I wanted to find someone. And I think he was looking for people in that age group because we are wanting that deep connection with someone. So I think at the start, it was just perfect. You asked tons of questions about you that you always like to hear, and, you know, like, he was really involved and wanting all of it. The attraction is always personal. It's just at the start where you see the pictures, and then later on is all the FaceTime calls and phone calls and. And all that is making you grow that deep bond. So that's what happened. Human nature.

[Nicole Lapin]

It is human nature. We all long for connection. And, Pernilla, same question for you. Your relationship with Simon wasn't romantic, but he still seemed to be an important person in your life. How did he gain your confidence or your trust?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Well, I think from the beginning, like, instantly when we met, he was very good. You know that some people, when you meet them, can make you feel this instant connection. After spending a day with them, it feels like you have known them for over 10 years. So he was very good in creating that. And like Cecilia said, he was very good in, like, asking questions. And for me, we actually had a lot of fun. We laughed a lot and a lot of joking. And he also, you know, build up that trust during a period of eight months with me. And he was the one who was always there, like, always. He was very good in sending good morning texts, checking in, how is your day? And everything. So in my eyes, he was a very caring person.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I think he was really good at remembering all the small details that we love. For example, I talked to him about that I was so cold in my flat in London and I was so tired, I couldn't even, you know, I was not even allowed to put the heating on it. A couple of months later, he could just say randomly, I don't want you to be cold in your flat anymore. You know, all of these type of stuff, like, you're listening, you know. And now, most likely, he had a notes, a notes app with all the different people he was talking to to remember this, because if not, he has the best memory in the world. But that is, like the one thing that I always try to look back on. But he was so good at it.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah. He could have literally sent you a text on your name day, which is like a Swedish name day, you know. So he was very good in remembering those details, which I still can be a bit fascinated about until today. How could he keep track on all of these details with all of these people on the hindsight?

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. There had to have been some sort of system that was like clockwork.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah. I think for me, I was quite naive. I think in the book, I read it back and I was like, oh, my God, Cecile, you're not the same anymore. But one of the things a lot of these frosters are doing, like they're testing for compliance kind of early. Not with money or anything, but they're testing what kind of person you are. Will you go digging into stuff? And for example, on that private jet trip that I was on, he handed me the passports of everyone involved. It's like, to see, can you just hold on to them, you know? And if I was curious, if I was a bit like, let me just check, I would have maybe just looked quickly through them and I would have seen that it wasn't a Simon Levi on that flight, that he was using a fake passport. So I think he's very good at testing what kind of person you are quite early, you know, giving, loving, trusting, all these type of things. What are you Caring about what are you asking him about? Are you asking him about his next fancy vacation or are you asking him how are you? You know, and I think he's very good at deciphering quite early when it comes to this big net that they're throwing out and they find the right individuals that will kind of become the perfect victim.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah. And you just casually mentioned your private jet flight with him. So there was a lot of over the top, lavish gestures. Was that one of the biggest that he made toward you or what was the most over the top?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

For me, that wasn't a gesture, it was his life. That was the first date. I didn't even think I was gonna see the guy again. I've never been on a private jet, so I was thinking would rather regret something I did do, then didn't do. I mean, reflecting back, it could have been human trafficked. So sometimes you could have picked one or the other, you know, being defrauded. So for me, the private jet was more of his lifestyle, who he was, what he did. For me, I think the hundred red roses was like amazing. I never received, you know, a flower bouquet that size. He sent me another bouquet of flowers later on, thanking me for helping him in the most difficult and darkest period of his life. So he was really good. Everyone thinks that I was traveling around with him and I think that is really annoying at times. I wish I could have gotten more money off the ones that he spent on my dime. You know, I did not stay at a five star hotel, I did not travel around with them. But of course other dates got it. If you know what I mean. Like okay, I got the private jet on the first date. Was that worth two hundred and fifty thousand dollars? I don't know.

[Nicole Lapin]

I don't think so.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Just trying to laugh about it because.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah, but I think like that is like a quite misunderstanding that we have went around and living and getting extravagant gift and extravagant like experiences. I didn't receive anything like he was my friend. It was not like he was paying my trips or getting me gifts or anything like that. But of course, like if we were out like on a dinner or something, he would probably take the bill. But that is more common courtesy and a gentleman behavior. So I mean I got some food. It's nothing, you know, it's not like I got anything for the money that I gave him.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I wish we did. I wish I had some stuff to sell, you know, I would have sold it to kind of try to wish.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

We stole the suitcase with all his stuff. There's nothing that we paid for, so.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

But yeah, as you can see, I would have been honest if it was tons of extravagant, I would have said, okay, thank God I got something back out of it. But unfortunately I didn't. I stayed in the secret flat that he had and we had home cooked meal, you know what I mean? So me and Prilla, we went back actually to Amsterdam and we confronted one of the hotels that he had stayed at with my card, talking about how you could be a five star hotel where you hand in a credit card and did they have anyone that was a woman in that entourage? And how could he use my card for like £6,800 for just a weekend? So it's been a journey me and Perel has been on.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, that's. That's for sure. I mean, when we think about scams, we don't tend to think necessarily about getting taken advantage, of course, by someone we love and has gained our trust and we've shared experiences with.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I think the way that he really gained trust is that he introduced us to several people and not at the same time. So we met up with his friend who confirmed what a great person he was. Cecilia met up with his child's mother who said that he was amazing and she was actually the one who sent him to prison in Finland. Like, we met so many people throughout a period of time that confirmed his identity and confirmed he was a great person. While looking back at it, I have been sitting on a dinner with five people who have been literally just out there to defrauding me and destroying my life. So it wasn't just him building the trust, it was all the people around him who built the trust. If it would have been only him, he wouldn't have been able to do what he did. It was all the people around him that did it.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Who is thinking that people create immersive theaters around you, you know, now Cecilia is coming to visit you, so go and sit down and fix some of your expensive watches so you can talk about that. Or when I was waiting in the bedroom and he went over to his business partner, they were discussing diamonds. Not even in the same room as.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Me, or just randomly like leaving paperworks, you know, by the counter, by the coffee machine and just, oh, can you go and grab the coffee? And then it's just that casually laying there with a company stamp and everything. So it was a whole operation, it.

[Nicole Lapin]

Was a whole production. I mean, immersive theater is a really interesting way to describe it because you have characters and props and all sorts of elements that he's controlling. So, Cecilia, it sounds like things really shifted after you got this ominous text from Simon, the one where he said his bodyguard had been attacked. Right. That was, it seems, the moment that he told you he couldn't use his credit cards anymore. And then everything started to unravel from there.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

My timeline is a bit different, so in the book, finally I can make it more clear how it happened in my case. My case did not take eight months, so I'm not one of them where it took super long time. I'm very honest about it. Like, for me, it was after Valentine. I given him a very nice gift maybe six, six, seven weeks after we met. And he then said that he was in such big troubles, he got told from his security teams that he couldn't use his cards for a while. And I was like, oh my God, is there anything I can do? You know, I hadn't been with him, but I'd seen him traveling around, you know, and I had heard about the bodyguard, Peter, and like, he said that he had some issues, but everything was going to get better. So that's how it started with me. And for me, that sounded like such a small thing to help him out with at the start. And I really believed that he said that he was who he said he was. So I was like, couple of weeks, I will help you out. But of course, in these instances, it doesn't get better, it only gets worse. So I had to call AMEX every single day to open up the card while he was using it. And 10k in Simon Leviv's and Teams world is nothing, you know, so. And I've never been around that kind of wealth or kind of understood. So the attack on Peter happened kind of midway, but it made me really feel that they needed my help and this was serious. So I got like a voice note after that, like, you understand now this is serious shit. We're in a war. Like, Peter could be dead. And no, like, it's. It's pretty sinister when you look back on it, you know, when I was in it, I was deadly scared of my boyfriend, which is very weird.

[Nicole Lapin]

It's always scared of him or for him.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

No, for him.

[Nicole Lapin]

Okay.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Because of the enemies.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yes. Like this.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Remember that you believe that he is who he says he is now. You know, you don't. So not yet scared of him then. But. So that is why I was like, with the documentary, it was a bit annoying because for me it wasn't a big thing that happened, but it was gradually but that really sentimented to me, like, fuck, this is serious. You know, I was so, so scared and kind of for him.

[Nicole Lapin]

So after that, well, you called Amex consistently, but then they actually showed up at your apartment.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

They didn't just randomly show up, but when in the end, I had understood what happened, they were the ones I contacted that I was so scared because I had done stuff wrong. You know, I had sent in then what I knew was to be fake documents. I had given him my credit card. You've done so many things that, you know, as a grown up is really bad for you to do. So that's when I called them. And then they came to my work to interview me, tell me who this guy is. And that's, you know, that's when it was all unraveling.

[Nicole Lapin]

Didn't they look at the photo and say, that's the guy?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah, because of course they don't want to talk about someone that is not the same person. So that they asked, do you have a picture of him? And they looked at each other and I was like, yeah, that's him. And that's when I was like, so what's interesting about that conversation? I saw Pernilla's name on because he had, like a written notebook, very old fashioned, and he had names of many people. And I looked at it and I saw other people. And what you as a victim want to do is to reach out because you were so alone, you know, like, what has gone, what's happened? I need to warn others or, you know, or connect. So I saw Pernell's name and some others, and I asked them, can I reach out? You know, I'm actually alone and, you know, terrified, like, who is this guy? And then he said to me, no, please don't do it. Like, we want to take him to court, you know, and trial. And if you do that, we can destroy, you know, the testimony that would.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Have saved me, right. At least if they would have reached out because, like, I was an American Express, like platinum member for years, so we have the same customer service. So for me, what is like, the most upsetting part about my story, that there were so many people down on the road that could have helped me and just make sure that I wasn't defrauded or was put in this situation or even in danger. And for me, the feeling when I everything unraveled is that so many people knew about me. No one did anything. So I think that that was fueling me afterwards that you don't want anyone else to go through with this, I think, like with our story, I think that this is the most saddest part, or at least for me, that it could have been avoided.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

First of all, I was alone for six months before the Tinder swindler, the Norwegian one, came out. I was all by myself because they had barred me from contacting anyone else that I had the names of. And then I got to know when I met up with Pernella, that I went to the police in May 2018 and Amex knew about him. She was defrauded. When is it? November.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

December. November. End of November.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah. It's like heartbreaking, you know, that things could have looked very differently. So, yeah, so our timeline is like, it's a bit overlapping. I had seen Prinla's name, but I was told to me that they were going to warn her and they never did.

[Nicole Lapin]

When did your internal warning light go off, Pernilla? You weren't warned.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I mean, like, my warning signals went off. So I did go to my bank. There are so many instances in both of our stories where this could have been prevented. So he sent me news reports, stories that actually happened to the real Levie family. And so he said, due to this instance, I need to borrow some money because otherwise I can be in danger. And also the one closest to me, which is you. So it was also like a threat that if I didn't do this, something could happen to me. You do get scared and especially when thinking of your friends. So he used like real stories towards me. So when I lent him the first amount of money, he sent me back a check that just didn't arrive. It was a very good fake. So I went in with it to my bank and I said, well, hey, can you check if something is wrong with this transfer? Because it doesn't seem to be arriving. I just want to make sure nothing is wrong. So they actually, behind the desk, she was like, well, can you email it to us? And I will email it also to the headquarters. So they do that and I'm in at the bank and then they just saying, come back. Well, everything looks fine. It's just going to take a couple of days. And then I felt so bad for questioning my very good friend and actually thinking he would do something like this towards me. So I lent him even more money.

[Nicole Lapin]

Why did the bank tell you that it was okay?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

They said that everything looks fine and everything was in order and that it would probably just arrive in a couple of days. But of course, when you're taking this back, they have said it to you in person. So it's not in retic. It's very smart. I mean, I could have been saved there, but it's just. And then when I confront them with this afterwards, they're like, well, we can't know how every look of every transfer looks like. And then you're like, couldn't you have said that?

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, it's not malicious. It's just the people at the bank don't have that kind of forensic analysis.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

But say that too when you come. Then it was the same with the check that he tried, where everyone. They said everything was fine with the check. They didn't even check if the check was real or not. If a single individual, a single woman and comes in and trying to cash a $500,000 check, first of all, that is a red flag. And second of all, maybe you should just check if before you do anything else, is this check that we have is real. It's just so sad to look back on, you know?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah. Then for me, I think, like, I. I got the real, like, reality check was when vg, the reporters contacted me, and that's when I was like, my worst fears were true. I had stuck lending him my money because I gave him my savings, and my savings sort of ran out. And I remember just, like, trying to test him because, like, you really want to go into denial. You don't want to have lost all your money. You don't want your. What I thought, very good friend to be a fraudster and my entire life being fake. Because then you started to realize when you went through these, like, immersive theater around you with all these people, if this would have been true, I would have lived like a crazy Hollywood movie that is just too insane and that becomes, like, too serialistic, too. Do you understand what I mean? Like, it's. It's just too insane. So I had stopped sending him money and just, like, sort of testing him. And he was sort of like, he gave me a try, see if I would take up a bank, of which I refused. And that's when I was like, something seriously wrong, but you don't want to believe it. So when the video recorder contacted me, I was at a work fair, and I think I almost passed out because you just saw your entire life just went into the ruins. I was so destroyed after that that it was a dark, dark place in my life.

[Nicole Lapin]

I'm sure. I mean, at some point you think that it's going to turn around, right? That you can't cut your losses, that you're going to just something's going to change. And so is that part of why you guys felt like you could keep giving more and more?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

It's like the sunk cost fallacy is that with all humans, the more people, the more you put into anything, work, relationships, whatever, the more difficult it is to, you know, take a step back. And especially when you feel your life depends on it, like, your life is over if this isn't real.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

This wasn't like he did this also with an underlying threat. It wasn't like it came a big threat, like, all of a sudden, like you would imagine it to be. It was like spreading a little bit salt here and there and here and there and just like, building it up. And for me, it had been built up for such a long time. I mean, I was sitting there thinking, like, what is more important than my friend or money? I mean, isn't a life worth more than money? Would. I wanted to sit there and see that something actually did happen, and I have the capacity to help, but I just decided not to. I don't know. I mean, like, even if. I mean, to any froster out there, it is not going to work. But just like, if you think if Cecilia would call me and say, like, hey, babe, like, this is a life or death situation. Can you transfer me $50,000? Even if I wouldn't have it, I would make sure she had that in her bank account within hours. You know, if it was a life or death situation, I think people really.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Have to understand that we thought it was real. You know, you're not getting scammed if you have an inkling or you think that this is happening to you. Hindsight is always a gift in these instances. You know, where we. Of course, when you see back is being in an abusive relationship, a lot of times you don't see the red flags. For you, this is normalcy. It's when you see afterwards that is like, oh, my God, these messages are not great. And someone that truly loved me would never have put me in this situation.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

It's been blaming someone who have been cheated on as well. Like, how couldn't you know that the guy was gonna cheat or she was gonna cheat on you?

[Nicole Lapin]

Somebody who's shaming the scam me. I don't even know if that's the way to describe it. The person that is being scammed, that's that we can all get in this situation so easily. And Pernelli, you talked about this dark moment in your life. You felt sucker punched. How dark did it get?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Like, very dark.

[Nicole Lapin]

Like Suicidal?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah, I was suicidal. I was so bad. And I think that that is what really made me and Cecilia's connection so special from the very beginning, because I don't think I would have survived this without her and having her support. We were supporting each other through this very dark experience. I could talk with someone who really understood me, who really understood what you have been living through. So that was definitely my thing. And I have the most amazing family and friends. So I did get out of it, and I did get back stronger. It's so sad that when we talk about scam and frauds and everything, we don't talk about the suicidal rates when it comes to people who have lived through scammer fraud and especially emotional fraud in general. And those are very high numbers. We love to support people who are suicidal and have helplines and everything. But when we tell them, when you go, for example, meet police or psychiatrist or try to talk with people that you lead through scam, then it's not the same thing all of a sudden.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, it's a privilege. To think hindsight is 20 20. That you should have known this or that is ridiculous. It sounds like you guys are hearing that a lot, and that's maybe a source of what you want to clarify.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Well, I think, like, right now, I am looking back at the year 2019. It's six years ago. Maybe we move forward to that. But I think that's where I was at that point. But it also built me a lot stronger going through that in my life and also want to believe in, like, a higher purpose, that this happened to both me and Cecilia for a reason, because we were very good in handling that situation as well. Then built each other, like, very stronger afterwards as well.

[Nicole Lapin]

Cecilia, did you see that darkness, too? Did you feel suicidal during this?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah, I think if you've seen the Tinder swindler, you knew how dark it became. For me. I would, like. My mom had to put me into acute psychiatric ward, so of course, I had nine creditors on me, you know, so I had to sell my flat and, like, I just knew my life was over. I'm a smart woman, you know, I knew. I knew what kind of issues I. I was gonna have to face afterwards. Like, the fight. Everyone thinks that when you're defrauded, you're. You're done. But for a lot of fraud victims, the fight then becomes, okay, will I be able to reimburse the money? What I'm gonna do. We talked to several fraud victims who lost their homes. This is not a isolated incidents Just only for me. There's a lot of fraud victims that have to sell their homes and file for bankruptcies and losing. Like, it's. It's a ptsd. Like, it's not uncommon. And I. I think, you know, it turns dark and like, in. In my case, I. I was taken to court by four banks and I became a suspect with the UK police. So it was some pretty dark years where I went through, like, am I living in the twilight Zone? Like, because I've always been like, well, this was a crime. When I got out of it, you know, we were trying to figure out, why did we do what we did. And you come to understand that you are a victim of a crime. And then the financial institution say, no, you're the culprit, you're the responsible. And then the court system say the same thing. And then the police as well, is not known. They don't know about romance, fraud and social manipulation, social engineering. So they see, well, Cecilia Philhoy did this, so we're going to go after her. Even though Simon Levi was the one, you know, pulling the strings. Because, of course, it's. It's difficult. But, yeah, it's. And having, like, Pernilla, like, peer support for me has been like, when I finally. When we finally connected, you know, I was like, thank God. As. Same as Pernilla. I was like, I have a amazing.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

That's, like the sweetest moment, though. And I'm so happy because we actually had, like, the reporters. We actually have a picture from our first meeting and just, like, giving each other this, like, big hug. And, you know, it was just so amazing. This is still the best hug I ever had.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I have a target, Mom. That's. That really was fighting for me who had control of my finances for a year, because I wouldn't have sat here without her. But I have to say, like, as Pernilla was saying, people can have empathy and sympathy and sit there, like, and understand. But it was when I met Pernella where I was like, but he was a nice guy, right? He was nice to be around. He was funny. Like, it was just so nice to meet someone who knew him because I had all distorted, like, he was monster, you know? And it was just so nice to meet Pernilla. I was like, yeah, he was nice. I was like, yeah, I felt that too. Like, I didn't fall in love with the awful guy, you know, it was really healing to meet her finally.

[Nicole Lapin]

And one of the most remarkable parts of this story is right around then, in your darkest moments, Both of you made the decision to fight back and try to take him down, not just for your sakes, but for everyone else's who might be get scammed in the future. Was there any hesitation?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

So I think, like, especially for me, it was so much like, I don't want this to happen to anyone else, especially when I knew that this had happened to people. And there were so many factors that could have saved me. Like, Cecilia said she went to the police in May. I got to try the end of November. And I was just like, this can't continue anymore. Like, someone has to put a stop to it. So I was so grateful for Cecilia for reaching out to Viji, who finally then contacted me a little bit too late, but still. But just like to go and do this together with Cecilia and just pick up the fight.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I contacted VIJI and the media out of desperation. I was like, what? What is this? This is the most crazy story I've ever heard. But the financial institutions is like, police is like. And I was like, isn't it weird to lose £200,000 to one guy in 54 days? Am I the only one that thinks that this is not normal? And then I feel like when I could see their indifference, I was like, he is just gonna continue and continue and continue. And I was so upset about his threatening behavior. He had sent me a threatening email where he says, we know you, your friends, your family, you know, step out for every action. Going to be a reaction. And first I was deadly scared. And then I was like, and this is not okay. This is not how you treat people. I lost my entire life because of you. This is not fair. And you're going to continue doing this. And he has. At least we got his face out there. And now we know that Frosters have been at this for decades. We stopped him in two years time. You know, pretty proud of that because he would have just continued this fantastical lifestyle.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

Where do you think you found the strength during this dark moment to dig so deep and, you know, go after him in. In such an aggressive way? What was the fear or hesitation, whether it was going to the press or the police or just telling someone the truth at that point?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Back then, I just needed someone to listen to me properly and understand what this was. Because I was like, so to have VG that kind of went and find the court papers from Finland. They went to Israel to get a positive identification. Like, they did actually do a lot of great work in just half a year. Me and Pranilla know now how long it will take to make documentaries so that they may. We're able to do that in half a year is pretty impressive. So I think that is it. And then like when I was pretty low before the Tinder swindler first one came out. And then you, Pernilla, you were on the we can do this. And I saw like, oh, my God. Pernilla is like. She's helped me catch this guy. Like, oh, my God. So we have been giving each other strength at different times because I've been by myself for half a year, you know, creating this. And then Pernilla comes in. Then like.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Like what?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

You know, what the happening. We need to do stuff. And it's like, yes, we've been a great tag team.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

For me, I think it is felt like I was at a dark point, but it was just like when I saw Cecilia especially, like such a long time afterwards, you know, six, seven months after she went through this and she was still like in such a fragile state. It sort of got to me, like, I don't have to fight for myself. Like, I need to to fight for this woman too. Like, we need to do this together. So I think we created sort of like a dream. I remember us just sitting in Cecilia's flat in London. We were thinking, as long as people knows about him, it's going to be more impossible for him to defraud others, him and his team. So we just. We knew that the only way we could stop him was for people to know about him. So we just took that VG piece that we sort of required for them to make in English. It was the first time ever they ever did that, this Norwegian newspaper. So we just took that and just sent it out everywhere. I promise, if it was My Little Pony who wanted to do an interview, we would have said yes. If they want to show his picture. Like, this is where we were. So we were just sending it out all over.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

All over the world. And we knew what kind of hotels he'd been staying at. So we were trying to send that to the hotels too that he had been to. You know, you've had a froster staying at you. This is. So we were like, all the places. Because we wanted to warn that if.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

He comes back, we were sent to airlines. Like we were on a hunt. And I mean, like, when we got that picture sent to us that he was actually in a hostel, I think that that is where we're like, we did it.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

We wanted. And we're. And I remember like the first sentence in the original Tinder swindler is like the journalist was asking me, why do you want to tell this story?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

And.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

And I answer, I don't really want to tell this story. Like, it's not like you have very deep needs, you know. Let me tell you. You know, but we knew that this was had a bigger purpose.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

It's not like we were surprised that we were going to be run over by a bus, you know, doing this. And both me and Cecilia knew this even before doing it. We just decided to do it anyway and for a better cause. I just didn't want anyone else to go through what I have been through, that someone could have saved me and just decided not. 2.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Close your eyes. Exhale, Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Oh my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe.

[Nicole Lapin]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I was.

[Nicole Lapin]

Oh sorry. Namaste.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

[Nicole Lapin]

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[Pernilla Hoholm]

I mean it did.

[Nicole Lapin]

How did speaking out give back to you?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I think especially for me, I was making the Netflix documentary with Bernie and Felicity who made the documentary the Tinder swindler and it was just like sitting on those pre calls and everything as well, just going too deep. And someone who really understand and knows your story as well. Because then it sort of have passed a few years as well. You have sort of had a pulse with it. And then I really felt that I could leave it behind me. But sharing and talking about it, like I said, like that crucial time in the beginning, Cecilia was my biggest support. That we could just sit on the phone for hours at night and just talk and talk and talk. And that just really helped me process as well, like what you have been through. So I think that that is the most important thing that you can do is like. Like share it with someone that you trust. It's not like I say, it's not for everyone to go out and share your biggest mistakes you have done in your life in public. It's not. I mean, I got so much love. I think I got more love than hate. But of course there is hate when it comes to fraud victims.

[Nicole Lapin]

I think that something that I've heard from you throughout the time we've talked is that there's this shaming against victims. So when you guys came out, were you surprised by the ratio of hate to love?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I think back in 2019, we knew, but I didn't know to the extent that it would be kind of. Because, you know, we made it. And then it grew more in the traditional viral, like in each country then I was not prepared for it. And I was like, VG sometimes took a picture of me outside the private jet that was on. I was like, stop it. You know, please. What is this making me look like? You know, we need Simon's face out there, not mine. And that was pretty heavy around the time. And I tried to argue with people on. On Facebook and my family saw it and they were like, cecilia, don't feed the trolls. When Netflix came out, as Pernilla said, it was a much more love that came directly because I think that showed a bit more what's happened afterwards. And the fight that we've been on, it felt a bit better, but it's tough. Like, still today I did a little piece with World Economic Forum. They posted on LinkedIn today. And it's a guy who just goes all in on me and commenting on everything.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I saw like a risk management guy commenting, okay, then, now unfollow or something. I was like, what, you work in this industry and this is how you behave? Like, that's very.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

This guy meant that since I'd sent in the fake documents, like he had concoc that I created those fake documents and I. I knew that they were actual fakes and I just sent them in and I just mean like this is what Frosters are doing. They're using the victims, you know, hands and actions and words. So there's nothing in Simon's name. Everything is in my name. So I'm the one kind of doing it to myself. I think we shame and blame ourselves the most. We don't need to hear from others. I regretted everything I did, you know, to till this day. And there is a lot of anger I have towards myself. But I think knowledge is power. Understanding why I did what I did has really healed me. Academic research, like figuring out the language that the Frosters are doing, why I ended up in this position where I didn't even recognize myself. And we have even been contacted by people not even in fraudulent relationships, but it's more abusive. Like just have nothing to do with money. But they recognize the messages from. From Simon and how he treated. Like that's kind of my God, I may might be in a relationship I shouldn't be in. And how empowering isn't that like to be able to help people not even in fraudulent matters, but just this is a relationship I don't want to be in. I don't want to be talked to like this.

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, Simon was eventually arrested, but he was released just a few months later. So after everything he put you through and everything you lost, what was it like to see him walk away, walk free so quickly? Did it feel like justice was even ever served?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

No. And I think like Covid happened. So that is why he got out earlier from prison. I think for me and Cecilia, our first thought when we saw that he got arrested, we sincerely thought that that was for all the fraud cases out there. So when we realized that he had been arrested for fake passports and deported to Israel, who don't have a law.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

To extradition or extradition.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Sorry, I lost the English there. I'm Swedish. That was a huge disappointment because then as well, when that happened, the Swedish police told me, well, we can't get him in Israel, so we have to drop your case. Like we're not going to get it. So I think that sort of like destroyed. I know it looks very good in the movie. And we were really happy at that point. We did go through happiness. And he was sent to jail in Israel for old fraud cases he had committed back in the days. So he did serve time. And if I look how Israeli prisons looks like compared to the Swedish Ones Swedish one looks like a hotel. So I think it was sort of like a good punishment in Israel as well.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Our justice is how annoyed he is with how well we're doing. So the better we are doing, the more annoyed he is. And if I can make him feel maybe 0.1% the same way that he has made me feel, I'm quite happy about that. But justice was not served in this case at all. I can't believe that the police didn't get more smack in Europe for letting him go. He has active cases in Germany, in the uk, in the Netherlands, in Sweden, in Spain. It's insanity that he was let go. And I will talk loudly about that till the end because it's not fair for the amount of victims here in Europe that is still suffering. Everyone just laughs about it, you know, and like laughs about the Tinder swindler and this guy. Don't, you know, don't.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

And I think it's important to also understand that there are male victims. There are companies. There are companies who lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. We had a group of male doctors from Germany reaching out to us, like a group of seven who got defrauded of this guy. So I think it's important to sort of set the standard that this is not just romance scam and women. That is what we focused on on the One documentary. But he's a fraudster in general. He does everything he can.

[Nicole Lapin]

What did he do to the group of doctors?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

He defrauded them. You don't discriminate in the way of fraud. He frauds everything, everyone and anything he can get a hands on.

[Nicole Lapin]

So a similar playbook.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yep, similar playbook. Like fraud.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I think he was using like a mule. So he's using a middle person. But what we mean is that they will try crypto, they will try investment scams, they will try job scams, they will try online buying stuff that you never get. Frosters do everything. Don't think you're safe just because. Oh my God. A romance fraud. I'll never become a victim of that.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I think there was such like an incel culture that was sort of like, like raising him up and just like, well, he just punished the women. What women done to us. But just to get back to justice, I would just want to say that justice for me has sort of like changed during the years as well. And I think it has for you as well, Cecil. It's not about him anymore. It's more about the system. Like, I don't keep track on what he's doing. I moved over with my life because for me, if I would let him continuing affect my life in a negative manner, he's still in a way defrauding me because the most valuable thing I have is not money, it's my time. And don't waste my time, please. Like, I, I don't want to go there. So I think both of us are sort of seeing the bigger picture out there. Like we say there was wrongs in the systems. Maybe we could have gotten better help afterwards. Maybe we could got bigger purposes in life now. Like we both moved on and created amazing companies afterwards.

[Nicole Lapin]

You can always get more money, you can not always get more time. And it sounds like you guys have reframed to that. So what does peace or closure look like for you now? Not just in terms of justice, but your own life, your relationships, your sense of self?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I mean, I feel great. I've been feeling great for, for years. I think I serve my justice. You know, I'm getting justice every day. Just continuing working with what I'm working on. Like I created my own identity verification company, Peer to Peer, which is called idfy, which is launching soon. And I mean, I wouldn't have done that unless this happened to me. So I'm very proud of that because people always told us like, well, how could he not know that he wasn't who he said he was, was. There wasn't a tool, there wasn't anything that we could have used for everything that people were blaming me about. I sort of taken that and created that solution is that with a tech company and with this app that you can actually check someone's identity between just Peer to Peer and get it approved. So yeah, if that would have existed and I would have used it, maybe I wouldn't have gotten in this situation as well. And Cecilia have created and her company and you know, everything, it's, it's amazing with the support system and everything that that was missing for us. So I think we fulfilled our purposes with our story, but it's still going on.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I still have like, I'm gonna be honest, I still have grudges. I'm using my anger towards the, the banks who took me to court that made me have to file for bankruptcy. So my credit is fucked because of the this awful individual. I, I, I think I just still have a lot of stuff that I had to go through afterwards just with the police making me a suspect. But the anger has been fueling me in a good way. I was finally invited back to my home country in Norway. Last week after six years so I could finally be on a stage there been barred from almost speaking there. Cuz they don't.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah, that's my girl.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

What I did is that I started and I co founded a nonprofit for romance fraud victims. So with that over in the uk been talking to a lot of both police and financial institutions and we're actually doing a workshop for the moderators at Bumble. It's so nice to be able to make a difference and actually helping out and to show that victims we have expertise, we have insights, use us. I always say sadness gives you nowhere. I never felt felt sad about myself. I think then you just lay down and you don't do much. But if you just have that passion and fire and as I said the anger, I'm not bitter. But I don't want this to happen to anyone else. I don't want anyone else to feel as alone. And I think the feedback we've been getting from other victims who's been writing to us who says that looking at you guys and see the resilience and see that there is another side. And speaking of up. Thank you so much. And that's is. I think that's the best part about everything is the amount of people we've saved globally and nothing's better than that.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah, I remember one time I was at a restaurant and then this woman just come up to me and she just gives me a hug and I'm like, whoa, who are you? And she was like, I'm so sorry for just coming up and giving you a hug. But you literally saved my life. I was in a similar situation and my friend just recommended to see your documentary and I watched it and I realized this was happening to me. And afterwards I found out he had defrauded people. He had like raped women. Like he was an awful person. And you saved me and there and then I'm like, yes. Just to know that you have done things that have actually helped people. I think that that is very fulfilling.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

And I think a lot of people just thought that we were normal fraud victims that would just be too ashamed and just I think that's what Simon was hoping hoping for.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

You know, that is what worked for him for years. Or all these fraudsters, like they build up the shame. So you. Because a lot of romance fraud victims, they don't report the crime even so it's so easy for them to get away with it.

[Nicole Lapin]

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[Pernilla Hoholm]

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[Nicole Lapin]

You guys have both done such powerful advocacy work. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for raising awareness for victims of all kinds of scams. It sounds like it. It isn't limited to romance. I keep wondering as we're talking, has continuing to talk about this story been helpful for your healing process? Or do you ever feel like going back and rehashing it is like opening up a wound again?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Sometimes it can be a lot because it's not that you go up on stage and you talk 10 things that may be successful and just you can recreate it. You know, it's really draining because you're to get to people to understand the human impact here. Sometimes I question myself. I'm still in therapy, but I think it's not a lot of people who can do it. They are so beaten down and so ashamed. And if we can do it, I think we just have to continue. It's going to be worth it in the end, hopefully. But yeah, sometimes I do question.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I think like I had such a break. I did a lot of talks in the beginning and then I got pregnant with my twins and I was on journey to leave like with my kids that I sort of got a very good pause from the entire story. So maybe that is why I Maybe don't feel the anger and stuff anymore. It's just like my kids are my world. But I think, like, now when I'm doing talks and talking about it, I don't feel as much, but I don't do it as often as Cecilia. I more focus on my company right now, and I sort of want to move forward as well. Like, I don't mind doing a podcast like this and sitting and talking about it, but I don't think I would have the strength as Cecilia have and do it so often. I think that that would have drained me a bit or maybe I would have managed now, like, since I had such a pause from it as well. I think I really moved on from that story a lot. You know, I was 30 when this happened. I'm 38 today, but it's been some years. And I think I really processed everything in and I'm happy, I feel good and life is wonderful and, you know, I feel great. I didn't think that was possible.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I've healed from the fraud in itself. And with Simon, I don't give two shits if he says he didn't defraud us because we know the truth and the documentary couldn't have been made without it being true. But I think for me, it's more the aftermath, which has been more traumatizing for me, which I'm still kind of healing from and trying to kind of move on, because it's a bit difficult when you feel injustice.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I think we did a very good trauma therapy as well, like when we. Because we just made a book with the Never after that is coming out in. In August. And I think, like, there we really went into deep, me and Cecilia, and there I really had to, like, go back and relive the story. And that was a bit hard because you literally putting in so much effort as well, like giving out your worst mistakes.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I think writing that book really was like being able to actually tell what happened afterwards. Because even with the Tinder swindler Netflix, it's like there was nothing about the aftermath and then kind of setting it straight as well, being honest about how it started for me, you know, that it wasn't the attack in Copenhagen, kind of just being truthfully honest with people to just give that them what happened. Because sometimes when you make a documentary, some choices have to be made, you know, but so that has been kind of nice to be able to do this. Now it's going to be.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Read the book, but it's not just a retelling of the story. That's part of the book. But it's also. We have a lot of experts and everything in the book and we're hoping for the book even for policing training or anything like, can read this book when had a lot of professionals in it as well, so. And a lot of statistics and everything. I think it's a very powerful book. So I see it as a half actual, half biography. It's a mix of it. It was lovely making that and just all again, take the road back and then be a little bit more rehabbed afterwards again.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yes. Swindled Never after how we survived and how you can spot a relationship scammer. So it sounds like it. It doesn't just end with relationship scamming. You mentioned companies and other entities that were scammed by him and also are scammed by, I'm sure, many relationship scammers out there. Do you think that the name the Tinder Swindler wasn't as accurate? What would you have named it?

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I. I don't know, but I just thought that it felt like an insult. Even when they did the first piece and named it the Tuniswinder, I was like, is that what you want to focus on? Like, what about the rest? It sort of grew on me over the years that it was fine when they did documentary, but I was very disappointed. I know that it's a clickbait and I know that that sells. I understand that. But I really hated that. I hated it.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah. Like, we never know. If it wasn't called a Tinder Swindler, would it have been such a big success? Yeah, we're grateful for it. The Norwegian journalists were the one who called it. And then when there was a Netflix, they called it that too. So we were like, okay, it must be a great title then, you know, But I think for the story we told. We all met him on Tinder, kind of. So for me, it was more that when we were made the second documentary, we were maybe hoping that maybe some other factors came into play because we.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Knew much more on the podcast series that Netflix. Netflix did. They did the podcast series on it. It was amazing. And just like so many people missed that. And then they tell these stories about how him and his father trying to commit fraud to the Jewish organizations, like in New York and everything. Like, they're trying to defraud a rabbi and they have like recordings from those meetings and stuff.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

People, if you haven't, you know, listen. Listen to your podcast Tunicle. But if there isn't, there is more like that is an amazing three Part series that is showing more than making of the Swindler, like how Simon Levie came to be, which is just really, oh God awful, but really great.

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, it's pretty cool that you're working with Bumble because of course Bumble came from feeling screwed by Tinder, the founder.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Yeah, it is.

[Nicole Lapin]

It feels poetic to me.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

We need everyone to be in on the fight. You know, it's not enough like we need the tech companies with us, we need the banks. Like everyone needs, like we have a joint enemy. It is the criminal. So when we're calling that the system isn't working, it's not that we're against anyone, but it's just to, you know, to show people that there are things happening in, in, in the title series.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

Well, it's a collaboration that sort of needs to happen instead of people point to finger. No, it's wrong with the law system. No, it's wrong with the bank. No, it's wrong with the victims. No, it's wrong here. It's like a collaboration that needs to happen, happen to change these numbers and these statistics that are out there. I think like the 2024 numbers that the world lost to scam. 2024 was 1.03 trillion. $1.03 trillion to scam. That is an extreme amount of money. And we need to collaborate everyone all together. So I think like what everyone can do and, and try to do, we need to do. But what we really need to stop doing is blaming the victims so they don't even fear for recording the cases. Because we need people to report the cases as well.

[Nicole Lapin]

Absolutely. And I know there's more in the book about what victims can do if they feel like they have been caught in a scam. If you could just tell somebody listening now who might feel like they are in a bad situation, what would be the first think they should do?

[Cecilia Felhoy]

I think what they have to do is to reach out to someone that they trust and if they don't have anyone they, they trust, they can. That's what Love said why the organization is alive and because we want to be there for people. They need to go to the police and report because we as Pernilla just said, there's so many dark numbers here that we need everyone to report. Even though you feel it's minuscule, it's not worth it and get a hold of your bank and hopefully in some countries you can get reimbursements. In the UK you can. It's a bit different, but I think you need to open up because the longer you wait, the worse it will become to burst that bubble. Talk to friends, talk to family and know that you are a victim of a crime. You didn't fall for anything, you were targeted and you were abused. And I think that is so important to use the right language when we talk about this because I think by saying just scams and like then people don't take it seriously. You know, this is nothing. These are just money loss, victimless crime. No, there are huge consequences here. And I, I think like not being viewed as a victim can be terrible, you know, and going out there and being told that you deserved it, as we got told, terrible.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

I think as well, like both me and Cecil have had like a common goal that and hope for law changes. That is not only going to be viewed as scam, but it's also going to be viewed as emotional abuse. Like it actually is. Because if you go through these like especially Roman scam or emotional scams in general, it is an emotional abuse that you all live through. And I think that we really need to look into the laws in general all over the world. I work with an identity verification company that I have and I'm like, how is it even legal as well to fake your own identity? Why is that not a separate criminal case by itself? Why is it legal to pretend to be someone you are not and go to these type of extreme levels and especially with AI and deep fake that we are facing today and all those problems, but you can literally to create identities like synthetic identities out there. So I think something needs definitely to happen and I will be the biggest advocate for it. And I think that changing the laws, it is my plan and also my goal, but to really try and change that and really try to bring these numbers down as much as possible. Because we know that if we bring the numbers down, we will also save lives out there and not have lives destroy.

[Nicole Lapin]

What happened to you both wasn't just about stolen money. It was about stolen trust, stolen identity and stolen peace. But the two of you refused to let that be the end of your story. You really turned devastation into something that could help others. You found each other. And in doing so, you found strength, purpose, and maybe even something like healing. Your story is such a reminder that scams don't always have to look like a shady phone call or a fake investment. Sometimes, sometimes they can look like love. And the only way to fight back is to shine a light on the shame and to tell the truth. So thank you both for being here today and sharing your strength. Your truth and your voice.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Oh, thank you, thank you.

[Pernilla Hoholm]

And thank you so much for having us. Nicole.

[Cecilia Felhoy]

Yeah.

[Nicole Lapin]

Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host, Nicole Leon. Scams, Money and Murder Is a Crime House Original Join me every Thursday for a brand new episode here at Crime House. We want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard here today, reach out on social media rimehouse. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And for ad free listening plus early access and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Pieces Podcasts. Scams, Money and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Scams, Money and Murder team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Stacy Warrenker, Sarah Camp, Paul Libeskin and Victoria Asher. Thank you so much for listening. Ready to rethink everything you know about true crime? Check out Murder in the Media, the first audiobook book from Crime Health Studios. Find Murder in the Media on Spotify.