INTERVIEW: Twin Flames with Louise Cole and Paula Hardy

Summary

Scams, Money & Murder
Episode: INTERVIEW: Twin Flames with Louise Cole and Paula Hardy
Release Date: August 7, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Scams, Money & Murder, host Nicole Lapin engages in a profound and emotional conversation with Louise Cole and Paula Hardy. The sisters recount their harrowing experiences with Twin Flames Universe (TFU), a high-control group that reportedly entangled their beloved sister, Stephanie, in a web of financial exploitation and psychological manipulation.

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Background on Twin Flames Universe

Twin Flames Universe (TFU) presents itself as a spiritual organization promising members the ability to manifest ultimate love and divine purpose. Over nearly a decade, TFU has operated profitably, leveraging multi-level marketing strategies to accumulate wealth for its founders, Jeff and Shalaya Devine. However, Louise and Paula reveal a darker side to this seemingly benevolent group.

"[TFU] is more than just a spiritual group; it's a highly profitable enterprise that targets not only people's wallets but their very sense of reality and belonging."
— Louise Cole [03:02]

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The Recruitment and Manipulation of Stephanie

Stephanie, described as intelligent, driven, and worldly, became involved with TFU after spending years in the Peace Corps in Africa. The sisters detail how Stephanie's quest for stability and purpose made her susceptible to TFU's influence.

"They typically learn the person first and then claim to provide whatever they're missing."
— Paula Hardy [00:47]

Initially, Louise and Paula overlooked the potential dangers, perceiving TFU as a means for Stephanie to deepen her spirituality. It wasn't until Stephanie's sudden disappearance and detachment from the family that the true extent of TFU's manipulation became apparent.

"I didn't realize she was falling for something so manipulative and harmful until it was too late."
— Louise Cole [09:05]

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Financial Exploitation by TFU

TFU's financial demands became increasingly burdensome. Members were required to invest significant sums—Stephanie's initial commitment was around $5,000—to participate in mandatory classes and coaching sessions that functioned more like commission-based sales. This relentless financial pressure transformed personal development into a divine mandate.

"An initial investment in personal development morphed into a divine mandate for Stephanie's family."
— Nicole Lapin [16:15]

Louise and Paula share the emotional and financial toll this exploitation took on their family, highlighting how trust and unconditional support were manipulated to secure ongoing financial contributions.

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Psychological Control and Gaslighting

TFU employed sophisticated psychological tactics, including love bombing—showering new members with attention and a sense of belonging—and future faking, promising unrealistic futures to ensure deeper commitment. Additionally, secondary gaslighting left the sisters questioning their perceptions and relationship with Stephanie.

"They use manipulation and high-control tactics to make you feel responsible for everything that goes wrong."
— Paula Hardy [35:37]

This psychological manipulation created an environment where Stephanie's emotional dependencies shifted entirely towards TFU, severing her bonds with her biological family.

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The Sudden Disconnection from the Family

The turning point came when Stephanie abruptly cut off all communication with her family upon moving to New York to fully commit to TFU. The sisters describe the bewildering experience of being blocked on all social media platforms and receiving a heartfelt, yet confusing, goodbye letter.

"When I saw that, I called Paula and was like, have you heard from Stephanie? This is what I found. And I think it's a cult."
— Luis Cole [31:25]

The letter, penned by Stephanie, left the family heartbroken and desperate to understand the sudden and complete severance of ties.

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Legal Battles and Defamation Suit

Louise faced significant backlash from TFU, including a defamation lawsuit when she spoke out about her daughter’s plight. Despite the emotional and financial strain—costing nearly $30,000 to defend herself—Louise remains steadfast in her mission to expose TFU's manipulative practices.

"I'm a mother. My babies will always be my babies, no matter how old they are. I will fight for every single one of them the same."
— Luis Cole [53:36]

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Ongoing Grief and Hope for Reconnection

Living with the knowledge that Stephanie is physically present but ideologically distant has been a source of chronic grief for the sisters. They navigate their mourning while holding onto hope that Stephanie might one day see the truth and reconnect with her family.

"We will always be here because we always love her unconditionally."
— Luis Cole [62:07]

Paula emphasizes the importance of giving Stephanie space while maintaining unwavering support, hoping that moments of dissonance will eventually break through TFU’s control.

"I just want her to be safe, physically, emotionally, financially... we will always be here because we always love her unconditionally."
— Paula Hardy [58:44]

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Advice for Others and Warning Signs

Louise and Paula offer invaluable advice to families who may find themselves in similar situations. They highlight the significance of trusting one’s intuition, recognizing financial and psychological red flags, and understanding the tactics employed by high-control groups.

"If something doesn't feel right, please don't just explain it away. Listen to your gut."
— Paula Hardy [55:54]

They urge others to be vigilant about manipulative practices such as:

• Love Bombing: Excessive praise and attention to secure commitment.
• Future Faking: Promising unrealistic futures to deepen involvement.
• Financial Exploitation: Mandating significant monetary investments for participation.
• Gaslighting: Making family members doubt their perceptions and reality.

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Conclusion

The interview with Louise Cole and Paula Hardy sheds light on the intricate and damaging dynamics of Twin Flames Universe. Their story is a powerful testament to the resilience of family bonds and the relentless pursuit of truth and justice against manipulative entities. As Nicole Lapin navigates this deeply personal and tragic narrative, listeners gain a profound understanding of the complexities involved in high-control group dynamics and the enduring impact on those left behind.

For those affected by similar situations or seeking more information, the episode encourages reaching out to the Michigan Attorney General’s Office with relevant information.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “They typically learn the person first and then claim to provide whatever they're missing.”
  — Paula Hardy [00:47]

• “I didn't realize she was falling for something so manipulative and harmful until it was too late.”
  — Louise Cole [09:05]

• “An initial investment in personal development morphed into a divine mandate for Stephanie's family.”
  — Nicole Lapin [16:15]

• “They use manipulation and high-control tactics to make you feel responsible for everything that goes wrong.”
  — Paula Hardy [35:37]

• “I'm a mother. My babies will always be my babies, no matter how old they are. I will fight for every single one of them the same.”
  — Luis Cole [53:36]

• “We will always be here because we always love her unconditionally.”
  — Luis Cole [62:07]

• “If something doesn't feel right, please don't just explain it away. Listen to your gut.”
  — Paula Hardy [55:54]

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This summary captures the essence of the interview, highlighting the key discussions and emotional narratives shared by Louise Cole and Paula Hardy about their struggle against Twin Flames Universe and their unwavering love for Stephanie.

Transcript

[Nicole Lapin]

Hey there, it's Nicole Lappin. Crime House is the home of the best true crime stories out there, and you definitely don't want to miss the latest episode of Murder True Crime Stories. Carter Roy is looking into the mysterious unsolved case of the Boy in the Box. In one of America's most haunting mysteries, the body of a young boy was discovered in a box in 1957. Join Carter as he walks you through the entire story. Listen to and follow true Crime stories every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.

[Luis Cole]

This is Crime House. It can happen to anyone under the right circumstances.

[Paula Hardy]

Really manipulative, harmful, high control groups. What they do is they typically learn the person first and then claim to be able to provide them whatever they're.

[Luis Cole]

Missing, waiting with open arms and under her terms, we'll always be here.

[Nicole Lapin]

As they say, money makes the world go round. What many don't talk about is the time it made people's worlds come to a screeching halt. Whether it's greed, desperation, or a thirst for power, money can make even the most unassuming people do unthinkable, thinkable things. And sometimes those acts can be deadly. This is Scams, Money and Murder, a Crime House original. I'm your host, Nicole Lapin. Every Thursday we alternate between covering infamous money motivated crimes and gripping interviews with the experts or those who are directly involved themselves. Crime House exists because of you. Please rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts and for early ad, free access and bonus content, subscribe subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today. Hi, I'm Kristen Bell and if you.

[Paula Hardy]

Know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.

[Luis Cole]

We're really doing this, huh?

[Paula Hardy]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[Luis Cole]

Bye bye Truckee.

[Paula Hardy]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Luis Cole]

Hello other Truckee.

[Paula Hardy]

Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.

[Nicole Lapin]

For years, Twin Flames Universe has promised to help people manifest their ultimate love, their true soulmate. For nearly a decade, it has operated as a highly profitable enterprise, charging thousands of dollars for classes and coaching and employing a multi level marketing structure that funnels fortunes to its founders, Jeff and Shalaya Devine. But this scam doesn't just target people's wallets. It goes after their entire sense of reality and belonging. Louise Cole and Paula Hardy are our guests today. They witnessed Stephanie, their daughter and twin sister, respectively, an intelligent, driven, worldly young woman, become entangled in a web of financial exploitation and psychological manipulation, ultimately leading to her sudden and heartbreaking disconnection from her family. Their story reveals how emotional vulnerabilities can be expertly exploited, turning spiritual aspirations into a dangerous path. But before we begin, we want to share an update with you. Shortly after recording this episode, we learned that the Michigan Attorney General's office announced that it's investigating Twin Flames Universe. So for any current or former members of TFU who might be afraid to come forward, please know this. If you have an NDA with tfu, a subpoena carries more legal weight than an NDA. We have resources available in the show notes to this episode, including contact information for the Michigan Attorney General's investigation. Please don't be afraid to come forward with important information that could help yourself or others. While today's interview, like many conversations about tfu, is a story of profound loss, it's also a testament to the incredible resilience and unwavering love of a family. Luis, Paula, thank you so much for speaking with us today.

[Luis Cole]

My pleasure, Pleasure.

[Paula Hardy]

Thanks for having us.

[Nicole Lapin]

I know this is an incredibly difficult topic to explore, and I really want to dive into some of the mechanics of how Twin Flames Universe, or tfu, operates, particularly financially and some of the coercive elements through your unique lens, so we can hopefully help others. Could we start by reflecting on the initial period when Stephanie first became involved with tfu?

[Paula Hardy]

Absolutely. It was a little bit of a blur for us because we were kind of kept out of the loop when some of this was initiating and starting. But from our best understanding, much of the context of started when Stephanie was actually out of the country. She was in Africa in the Peace Corps actually for a couple of years for public health and wanting to give back, wanting to have a bigger impact, to really do something in the world and help people. And so she spent a few years in Africa, in Uganda, in the village, helping support people to educate themselves on their health and how to stay healthy. And during that time. So I'm her identical twin. So we're obviously the same age. We were very young. I was right out of college, early 20s. You're kind of figuring out who you are and what you want in the world and how you want to show up and what you believe in. And you're also, I think, forging your own independent adult relationships. And during that time, she left. She left all of her culture. She left her family, her friends. She left anything familiar, her food, anything and everything stabilizing to do this incredible thing in the world. No way do I want that to sound as a criticism to her at all. It's actually incredible. But it created a space, in my opinion, where she was very destabilized and searching for that stability, searching for understanding. I know I was going through the same experience myself just here and in a very different way, seeking the same things. So from there, she really searched one of the only places she could, which was online, to find answers, to find connection, to find love. And that's when she ended up finding Twin Flames Universe. At that time, however, we kind of just thought that she was trying to understand her spirituality, getting closer to God. She did use that word, God and spirituality, a lot, but we didn't really ask a whole lot of questions, and she didn't really specify. So in the very beginning, it was small, innocuous. It was a good thing from our perspective. And that was quickly changed due to, you know, a series of events. I'm sure we'll get to here.

[Nicole Lapin]

So that was 2018. Louise, I know it might be difficult to look back without considering what you know now, but can you remember your first impressions of tfu?

[Luis Cole]

Well, again, like Paula said, they talked about God, and I'm Catholic, and I raised the girls semi Catholic. I didn't try to force that religion on them hard like it was on me, because I figured once they're adults, they'll be able to choose for themselves. But I thought, you know, she's finding God. That's a good thing. Again, she did not offer a lot of explanation about this group, just little bits and pieces. And at one point, I even told a friend of mine that, you know, this, what she's saying and all, it just seems a little culty to me, I said, but I just discounted it because there's no way she would ever get involved in a cult. No way. She's very worldly, and she would never fall for something like that. So that can't be what it is. And sure enough, it was did you look them up? I didn't, and none of us did until we got cut off, which was the day she left Taiwan to go to New York, and she effectively disappeared. When that happened, my oldest daughter Melissa, started doing some research, and we realized exactly what this was.

[Nicole Lapin]

Paula, as Stephanie's identical twin sister, you obviously share a very unique bond. Were there any subtle shifts that you noticed in her behavior or her communication or even her priorities that maybe in hindsight were indicators of TFU's growing influence on her?

[Paula Hardy]

Absolutely. I've actually thought a lot about this question because I try to look back and understand what was missed. Could we have seen the signs? Could we have understood what happened before it happened? Could we ever have interjected? Knowing what I know now, the reality is, no, we really couldn't have. But at least now I can have a better understanding of how we got here. Many of us in the family felt a little uneasy about, but didn't really have an explanation or we didn't really know what we were looking at. And so we just kind of justified it or brushed it off. I think I felt the most uncomfortable and saw the most amount of things that really concerned me. The week or so that she had come back from Taiwan to be present for my wedding to my husband. She was actually my maid of honor. A couple of months, just two or three months before she cut the entire family off, she flew all the way home from Taiwan and spent a couple weeks with us, staying at my mom's house, staying at my house, staying at my oldest sister's house. Just spending a lot of time with us and spending every moment with us, soaking it all in. And we loved that. But because of all that time with her, we actually got to see a lot of these little sort of cracks that didn't make sense for us. And that made us realize when she did cut us off, oh, my gosh, this is bigger than we thought it was. And one of the first things I recall is she was sitting in my kitchen, actually on my kitchen table, and she was telling me that while she was here in America, she wanted to separate her banking account from my mom. Again, this was sort of mildly after we had graduated from college and she. Because she was abroad, it's just easier to have a combined bank account for herself with family. So that way we can still support her, which my mom did tremendously the entire time that she was abroad for many years, giving her money, resources, sending her things. Whatever she asked for or needed was provided to her. When she came back from my wedding she had made quite a few comments about how she was told by her group and her ascension coach that she should not have this, this financial association with her parents. She would use a lot of terminology you can actually hear today still there, things like poverty consciousness, a lot of buzzwords, and more or less she wanted to fully disassociate her financial space from my mom to have no influence. And she would use those words too, to make sure that there was no financial influence from my mom, as if it was a negative. But in reality, the only reason why that association happened was for my mom to financially support her. So that was interesting to me just to hear her take a very loving and caring action and scenario and turn it into something where it was questionable. She spent a tremendous amount of time doing that and basically I think creating a new account. But I'm not sure. I just overheard bits and pieces, but through that she was telling me that she was worried because her payments to Twin Flames Universe had been paused. Her monthly payment, she owed for an entire year to pay for these enormously expensive classes, which we again didn't fully understand at the time. If she missed one payment or was late, according to the system of payment, she would have to restart the entire lump sum over again, which I have never heard of in business. To me that's unethical. I trust her, I love her. And I just chalked it off to maybe I just don't fully understand and I don't have all the information. And so maybe this ugly feeling inside about this is unwarranted. But the financial control piece was starting to show just in those small moments. And then other components is the time, consumer control. She was in America on vacation and yet she was required to still take clients for these hour plus long sessions. One of them was over two hours. And most of them weren't even actual clients. They were prospective clients. There were discovery calls in order for her to try to convince them to purchase Jeff and Shalia's products and she would get a commission off of it. So she would work two hours to get a small commission off of them potentially purchasing one of Jeff Princely's products, if they even purchased at all. In that case, she would be working for zero. And these calls were all day and all night. Even when she was on vacation here with us, she had a call at like 10am and 1pm and 7pm, 11pm, 2am and so she couldn't get rest. She couldn't go do much of anything. It was very concerning and frustrating for the family to see her being so distracted and pulled away from where she clearly wanted to be, which was spending time with all of us. Those are two very specific situations where we were able to see some of those small cracks before she even cut us off that clearly show tenets of manipulation, narcissistic control, high control, and cult like activity. So it's kind of how it started.

[Nicole Lapin]

Louise, it sounds like you initially thought she was studying Chinese medicine, right? But then later discovered that she was actually involved with and then paying for a tfu. Can you talk about how you first started piecing together the true financial scale of her involvement?

[Luis Cole]

She was dead set on doing traditional Chinese medicine and she talked about the schools and the classes and she was taking some classes there in Taiwan, learning the language and stuff like that. So when she talked about these classes with tfu, I thought it was like real like college classes or something, you know. Again, I didn't question her because. Because she's always just been so driven and smart and I trusted her judgment with everything. I never had to question her judgment while she was growing up. It just didn't connect with me. I just took it for granted that these were classes for some kind of real school, not the TFU thing. I was constantly giving her money because you have to pay for classes, going to a university, college, or, you know, anything like that. So when she needed money for her classes, again, I didn't think twice about it. I would just transfer the money to her when she asked. I kick myself a lot that I didn't ask questions and try to dig deeper. I just always knew that she was just focused. When she focused on something, she was focused. I just trusted her 100%.

[Nicole Lapin]

But beyond the spiritual promises, the mechanics of Twin Flames Universe revealed a system built on relentless financial demands. From mandatory classes to to coaching that functioned more like commission based sales. Members found their purpose increasingly tied to the founder's profit. And for Stephanie, this began with an initial commitment of around $5,000.

[Luis Cole]

We had four girls and Stephanie and Paula were the youngest. We're not rich by any stretch of the imagination, so it was a hardship. But if she needed it, I made sure she had it. I took money from Peter to pay Paul kind of situations. I wanted her to have the tools that she needed because she was so focused on traditional Chinese medicine. And I thought that that's where it was going towards until later on when she said that Jeff and Shaleia told her that I shouldn't go to traditional Chinese medicine school, that I better served working for them. And that's when she told us, oh, she's gonna be rich and famous. And that's when things started going south. But I didn't follow my gut. I just trusted your daughter.

[Nicole Lapin]

And you thought that this was probably part of a career and that she would make more money from it. It was an investment in her and her future.

[Luis Cole]

Right. And again, she didn't tell us a lot about tfu. We only got little bits and pieces. I feel bad and beat myself up that I didn't ask more questions. A mother will always blame themselves.

[Paula Hardy]

I wanted to add some clarity and context to what my mom just said. Stephanie told us not just that. She was told that she was better served to not go to traditional Chinese medicine school and that she was meant to coach for Jeff and Shalia. Jeff channeled God. That told her that her entire life purpose was to coach for them. So her entire purpose for being on this earth was to be their coach and to sell their products, essentially. And when there's ultimate authority like a God figure or a Jesus figure, that's hard to contest. You can't really say, sorry, they're wrong when that's what her belief is. And I think out of a mode of respect for her as well in her spiritual journey, some of those conversations, again, weren't really had. So I just wanted to add that context because there's. It was a little bit more severe than that. It wasn't just that they said that she should, it's that they said that she's supposed to. That is her entire reason for being on this earth today is to work for them and to sell their products and to coach for them to spread their message.

[Nicole Lapin]

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[Luis Cole]

Since she went to Uganda, I had been helping her financially. I never kept track of what we sent her because there were so many different things. I mean, she'd need things. So I'd put a box together and mail. And just mailing whatever was in the box. Cost me a couple hundred dollars each time. And I sent quite a few boxes. And then when she'd need money to buy something or something for her hut, the place she lived in, or some extra food or something, we would send money. We bought her a small refrigerator for the hut that she lived in. There was just a lot of things and instances. So I just never kept track. A couple hundred here, 85 there. Whatever she asked for, I sent.

[Paula Hardy]

Mom, do you remember how much you gave her to attend the New York conference? Right after my wedding.

[Luis Cole]

That was close to 500 for that. She said she had a little bit, but she didn't have enough.

[Nicole Lapin]

And, Paula, it sounds like in addition to this financial pressure that TFU puts on people, there's also this psychological element to what they do. They're known for love bombing new members, showering them with attention and the sense of belonging really early on. How do you think this initial phase of intense love bombing or positive attention impacted Stephanie? And did you notice there was a shift in her emotional dependency on the.

[Paula Hardy]

Group after that time? You know, I think being an identical twin brings so many unique circumstances to her and to me in this scenario, especially around my family. Being an identical twin, growing up, not having your own identity, your own purpose, not being known for being you, but being known as being part of a combination, a cohort. She wasn't really known as Stephanie. She was known as the twins or, you know, half of it, as was I. I wasn't really known as myself either. And we shared literally everything. And so as we got older, we really fought for independence. And I think that's what helped to push her towards leaving the country and kind of paving her own way. But I also think that left her potentially open to love bombing and getting all of the individual attention that maybe she was really craving and wanting. And I think as young adults, too, that's part of growing up, is understanding what that looks like and how we want to navigate things through those types of needs of being seen and heard and how we feel valued and how we feel appreciated. And I think really manipulative, harmful, high control groups, what they do is they typically learn the person first and then claim to be able to provide them whatever they're missing. And so for her, she was clearly from her stint in Uganda, Africa and then she ended up transitioning over to Taiwan for a different type of contract to help support people, but in a different way. She was looking for something bigger and a bigger purpose and to be not just one drop in the bucket. And I think that they provided that to her and that helped her feel very important. She's also a go getter and a self starter. She can get stuff done. She was actually student of the year for our high school graduating class, for our entire class. She's incredible. And I think that's also why they seeked her out to pursue her. And they did a lot of things that are typical of narcissistic systems or relationships. The love bombing that you, I believe you mentioned. And then also something called future faking, which is the idea of basically claiming that you'll be able to provide, whether you or the system will be able to provide to you or the teachings, this thing that you're claiming desperately coveting or wanting. And for her and for this group, she was channeled by God to be super rich, like top 1% of 1% rich in the world. When she's living her life purpose, she's going to be one of the richest people in the world. She's going to be absolutely stunningly gorgeous, the kind of gorgeous that she wants to be. She'll be able to express that outwardly to the world openly. She's going to to have the absolute perfect person, other half of her soul, her ultimate twin flame, ultimate lover. She will have that at her beck and call for the rest of her life. Basically everything that really anyone, especially as a young adult is sort of looking for. They claimed that their teaching, following these leaders would provide that to her if she followed her life purpose. And of course her life purpose was to coach for them. So as long as she continues to follow her life purpose, to go all in on these teachings following learning from these gurus, then she will achieve all of these things eventually. But she has to go all in. She has to do the work. You know, there's that sense of future faking and love bombing treating her incredibly well. In the beginning she was given responsibility, she was given some leadership opportunities, she was a coach. So she was coveted in that sense. Where people wanted to coach under her, they Wanted her mentorship. She was really given a lot of those opportunities, and I think that's what drew her deeper into this group. And especially with the ideology of if you don't do the work well enough or fully, if you don't go all in, then of course you're not going to achieve that thing that you've been told you're supposed to achieve, because you haven't given up absolutely everything else in order to achieve it. So until you do that, until you go all in, you won't get all of those things. So every step of the way, she gave up, gave up, gave up anything else that could take away any attention from her. Diving into this group to draw members.

[Nicole Lapin]

Deeper into their web and secure their full commitment, Twin Flames Universe employs a ruthless tactic, actively creating a wedge between individuals in the group and their birth families. By fostering an us versus them mentality, the group positions biological relatives as obstacles to a member's spiritual journey, deeming the TFU community their true soul family. For Luis and Paula, this devastating shift came without warning.

[Luis Cole]

The strange thing is that I never felt that until she cut us off. We were close. We did video calls at least once a week, messaged each other couple times a week. So I never felt like she was pulling away from me. She kept in regular contact with Paula, but it was after she made the decision to go to New York, and that's when she cut us all off on that particular trip. And when she told us she was gonna decide, either go to New York to be with this Twin Flames group and my soul family, which I didn't understand that at all, or I'm gonna come home. And it's like, well, even if she doesn't come home, of course I would have loved for her to come home. But even if she didn't, at least she'd be in the States and I could see her in New York. You know, I couldn't really see her in Uganda. I couldn't really see her in Taiwan. So I was, like, okay with her moving to New York. That was fine. And again, I never felt that she pushed me away until we all got cut off. That's when I decided that, what have I got to lose? And when the opportunity came along to talk with a reporter from Vice, I thought, got nothing to lose. Why not?

[Nicole Lapin]

Well, what did the cutting off look like? How did she cut you off?

[Luis Cole]

We were messaging. She was getting on the plane to go to New York. I said, okay, let me know when you get there. At that period of time, there was Some big polar vortex or something in the Northeast, and a lot of planes were delayed and stuff like that. Well, and it's a long flight, so I gave her time, and two days went by and I still hadn't heard anything. And I thought, well, maybe she's just, you know, had to be delayed somewhere along the way because of the weather.

[Nicole Lapin]

And was it typical for you guys to talk every day or regularly?

[Luis Cole]

Fairly regularly, yes.

[Paula Hardy]

I think between you and I, mom, somebody in her family was talking to her every day.

[Luis Cole]

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Not during the plane ride, not during her traveling time. I'm just waiting, and it's like, she should be there by now. So I messaged her. When I got on the messaging thing to message her, there was, like, wording on there that said, you can no longer message with this person or something like that. And I'm like, what? And then I thought, oh, God, her phone must have been stolen at the airport, you know? So I tried to get in touch with this Sarah, who was supposed to be her soul sister, who is the person she was going to live with. And I looked her up on Facebook and sent her a message which was never answered. We're worried about Steph, and I don't know if she's there yet or not. And could you let her have her contact me when you hear from her? Sent the message. But I got curious about this Sarah and I started looking on her posts, and as I scrolled down a little bit, I saw a post with Stephanie in the picture, and it says, like, guess who made it? Or something like that. So I'm like, what? And then Stephanie responded. It was screenshot of a conversation they had, the two of them, that Sarah had posted. And it was like, yeah, now I've cut off my biological family, or something like that. And I was like, what, Mom?

[Paula Hardy]

It was. Now that I've handled my family block, she could get rid of her biological family and now fully move into her soul family, which is where she was going. It was to move in with her soul family in New York.

[Luis Cole]

When I saw that, I called Paula and was like, have you heard from Stephanie? This is what I found. And I think it's a cult. And everything blew up from there with all of us getting frantic and trying to figure this whole thing out.

[Paula Hardy]

I also had basically the exact same experience because I was also talking with her before she landed. And some of the exchanges, which I still have are something similar to, I'll let you know when I land. And I'm excited. Look at the picture of all the snow that I got from Sarah. And so it was no clue, no inkling to us that there was a problem, that she was even considering this. We never had an argument, a disagreement. We never called this group a cult up to this point. And so it really was that abrupt. And for me, I thought that maybe she had been seized at the border because when I tried to message her, I could not find her. And our only mode of communication at the time because she was abroad, was social media. So we would message on Facebook messenger app, not on text message, because she didn't have a service. So she would just hook up to WI Fi and message us that way and not have to pay for a phone service. And so I could no longer find her on social media. I thought, oh, my God, either she got seized at the border or she blocked us. And when mom called me and said, I cannot believe what I just found on Sarah's page, that's when we understood at that moment she had blocked us and that this was a cult.

[Nicole Lapin]

So you went from talking regularly to just completely abruptly getting blocked on social media, on text message, every avenue. You guys haven't spoken to her since?

[Luis Cole]

Yes. When we search her name, her name doesn't exist. As long as we're searching as us, it doesn't exist. Doesn't come up.

[Nicole Lapin]

So a month later, you get a letter. What's in the letter?

[Luis Cole]

I call it the goodbye letter. I have it right here. The interesting thing about it is Sheen in the letter thanks us for everything that we've ever done for her. But she brings up things in the past, like a friend that she had an issue with. It was like all over the place, really. But she did thank us. And then she said, this is my last communication. Have a beautiful, wonderful life. That's a three page letter. It was more or less just a goodbye letter. Very heartbreaking.

[Nicole Lapin]

And Paula, you got the same thing.

[Paula Hardy]

That one letter was addressed to my mom and the family, and so it was meant for all of us. It was her handwriting. It's all handwritten. It was written in a ruled spiraled notebook and ripped out with all of the little hanging pieces on the side and folded up and sent in the mail. And it is her handwriting. She wrote it, but it didn't sound like her. It was very confusing for all of us understanding that the series of events that had just happened prior, and at this point, we've already started to look into this group and sort of understand a little bit better what this is. It was very confusing. And what I have Come to understand now that many members have left who were there at that time, who witnessed this happen from the inside, who were there and hearing some of the conversations between Stephanie and the leaders, that this most likely was some sort of assignment. We've been told that a lot of the members are given many assignments which you can actually hear about. Some of the ex members speak on in the Wondery podcast and the different documentaries that are available of the different types of projects essentially that they're given. And that's honestly it's the first thing I thought of when I heard this. This looks like a school assignment. It seemed like it was not her intent or purpose, but that she had to do it. She was supposed to in order to get a grade. Like that's exactly the type of experience I had after reading it.

[Nicole Lapin]

I'm a brand new mom, Louise. I cannot possibly imagine how heartbreaking that must have been. How do you navigate today this unique and ongoing grief of having Stephanie alive? You see pictures of her on social media, but you can't access it through her page, but effectively inaccessible. I mean, what does it feel like day to day knowing that she's physically present but emotionally and ideologically distant?

[Luis Cole]

Well, I have to say, for the first two years after she cut us off, I was at a bad place. I didn't do any more family dinners, I didn't do Christmas. I just couldn't bring myself to do that. It took a long time to almost for me to wake up and say, I still have a family, I still have a life. I cannot grieve her and the family relationship forever. I've got to move on. It doesn't stop me from fighting for her, it doesn't stop me from loving her. But I had to pull myself out of that hole I was in because again, I have family, I have a husband, I have other children, I have grandchildren. And I just had to start living my life again. So I did that. So glad I woke up because I felt bad of what I was doing to the rest of the family. My biggest thing during this dark period for me was Paula. My heart broke for Paula. They were inseparable. They did everything together. They finished each other's sentences. I know a piece of her was missing and my heart broke for her. So that was another piece of it that I think helped to keep me down. Even though Paula never let it bother her, she always put up a big, strong front because she's like one of the strongest women I know. So very proud of her. Once I pulled myself out, that's when really things started coming together with the mother's group. When we finally came together, that helped immensely.

[Nicole Lapin]

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[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

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[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

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[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

On top of building this fake volcano.

[Paula Hardy]

For months, I give my daughter Smartypants.

[Nicole Lapin]

Vitamins to support her brain health. So her science fair project sounds more.

[Luis Cole]

Like.

[Nicole Lapin]

And less like. And while I may say it's not a competition, of course it's a f ing competition. Choose Smarty Pants vitamins to support your.

[Paula Hardy]

Kid'S brain health and save the science fair.

[Nicole Lapin]

Shop on Amazon, Amazon, smartypantsvitamins.com or at target today.

[Luis Cole]

Hi, this is Mike Ferguson and this.

[Paula Hardy]

Is Mike Morford and we want to.

[Luis Cole]

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[Paula Hardy]

Launched in 2017. We've covered every kind of case you.

[Luis Cole]

Can imagine, from puzzling missing persons cases to mysterious murders.

[Paula Hardy]

Some of the cases we cover are the biggest in true crime history or.

[Luis Cole]

Their high profile cases that are currently.

[Paula Hardy]

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[Luis Cole]

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[Paula Hardy]

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[Luis Cole]

And we have 300 episodes available to.

[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

You can listen to Criminology on your.

[Paula Hardy]

Favorite player or app and be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.

[Nicole Lapin]

As the family found a new path forward, one they never wanted to take, one question remained. How could they balance the hope of Stephanie's potential return or disengagement from TFU with the reality of her continued involvement with the group, especially after learning that Stephanie got matched and married to another TFU member?

[Paula Hardy]

It has been quite a journey I think for all of us, first and foremost, watching your loved one go through something so difficult and not being able to provide attention and support and love and be there. And that is so difficult. And it adds such a just a different layer of complexity to this because she is still alive. Like you said, she is still here, but we have no understanding or access. If that is truly what she wants, then I want to give her that Because I love her and I trust her and I respect her. And you know what? We all have our path, our journey in life that we have to go on on our own. And in no way, shape or form do I want her to ever think that she has to do something or doesn't have to do something because of what we think. That is not ever an intent. I want her to do what she needs to do, to grow and learn and feel important and impactful. I just want her to be able to do it in a way that isn't harmful. And you know what? We haven't heard her story, so we don't truly know. And I know that's a lot of the conversations on that group side and their members and their leadership is we're not able to tell our story. And you know what, Stephen, you're right. We haven't heard your story because you're not allowing us to. And so if that bridge was opened and we can hear that story and have those conversations, that's what I want. I want her still to make her own decisions, but I want to know that she's doing so in a way that's not coerced, manipulated, and a space for her that is harmful. And right now, I can't guarantee that. And honestly, from all the other things that I've seen and heard from her before she cut us off and from everybody who's left, I can't guarantee that right now I'm just waiting. I'm waiting for her. Like my mom, I'm not going to stop my life for that. And I think just like my mom had stated, we all stopped everything in our families. My mom, my family. I was newly married. I purposefully waited to have children until Stephanie came home. But we all came to the same understanding around the same time of, we can't keep doing this. We can't keep waiting. She can have her life and we can have ours, and we will be here when she's ready and she needs us. We will always be here because we always love her unconditionally and she doesn't have to work to do that. She doesn't have to do the work. She doesn't have to go all in. She doesn't have to do anything perfectly. She can just show up and just exist and we will do whatever we can to help support her in that. It's really been an unraveling too, for us, because at least the first year, if not the first two, was also a journey for us of understanding the secondary gaslighting that happens in high control situations. And I think this is something that we see not just in high control groups or cults, but also in coercive relationships, domestic abuse relationships, just high control situations where the people who love that person that's being harmed are also sometimes gaslit as well in understanding what's going on for them or that their loved one is making claims and statements that are oftentimes grandiose, that are not true about their experiences with us. And we experience that. We heard and watched many videos of her having coaching sessions, talking about her family life and her childhood and how she grew up and these memories that she had, which were true to some degree. And I know that for a fact because I was part of those memories. I was there. But she doesn't recall me in those, most of those memories. And what she recalls in those memories is not really the truth of what happened. And so what we ended up seeing and experiencing is questioning. And I saw this a lot in my mom, and it broke my heart of questioning. Was I a bad parent? Was I abusive? Did I harm her? Did I say the wrong things? Could I have done things differently? And the sheer gut wrenching, shattering experience that that can have for someone when you're watching your loved one and thinking through. Is everything that I perceived for that entire person's life wrong? Is my entire perception of those memories wrong? With all of my love and good intent and support, could that have been interpreted in a different way? It destabilizes you in a way that is really hard to understand until you understand that it is gaslighting too. And so I think me being an identical twin and being attached at the hip to her until she left for. Well, it was mostly actually college first, and then when she left Uganda, Africa. But we were attached to the hill. We did everything together. And so I could really bring the family back in certain circumstances and say, listen, that's not what happened. This is what happened. And I did not perceive that memory. That way I was able to bring us back and not allow the secondary gaslighting to happen. That breaks the family apart even further, even after your loved one cuts everybody off. So that was a very unique scenario. And I took on a lot of responsibility there of trying to right the wrongs. And the further we learn about this group, we start to understand too that some of their techniques, their coaching techniques, and especially their MAP program, which is an acronym for Mind Alignment Process. We've heard from now ex members that it's likened to essentially installing memories into people's psyche. Of course, we don't have that experience. We've never been in the group. We've never experienced any of those techniques. But it's interesting that they had that experience and then now we are questioning what Stephanie recalls from her childhood. It's very curious. It's been an interesting six years, just peeling back the layers and in the process getting closer together as family. We're closer now than we've ever been before. And that's not because particularly Stephanie isn't with us. It's because of our love for her and our love for one another that's unconditional. So there has been quite a bit of benefit there.

[Nicole Lapin]

Yeah, it sounds like a ripple effect of this gaslighting and trauma and self doubt that stemmed from what she's experiencing and has trickled out to you guys. I mean, to what extent do you have to control yourself from looking and keeping tabs on her online? Sounds like, you know, she was married. Sounds like you've seen certain things. She was your maid of honor. I'm sure that stung a lot thinking you would always be her maid of honor. How have you tried to keep a boundary from looking at what she's doing now?

[Paula Hardy]

Well, the biggest thing for me is the person that I see the few things I can see. Let's say that because in reality, we've really been blocked from everything. So unless we intently try on purpose to gain access through other people's accounts or whatever else, we really can't see it. It's sort of out of sight of the mind, which I think is great in a lot of ways. But when we are able to see, I don't see her in those videos anymore. It's her figure, it's her, but it's not really her. I see this person that is in a lot of pain in her wedding video. She seemed sad. Very, very sad. She cried, which, you know, crying in weddings, it's not unusual. I cried in mine out of love and bliss, but it just seems different. I'm not angry or frustrated that I wasn't part of her wedding per se. I'm sad that the people who love her most in this world could not celebrate her in that moment.

[Nicole Lapin]

The inability of Stephanie's loving family to share in such a pivotal life moment underscored the deep, devastating reach of Twin Flames Universe. During our research for this episode, we found that Stephanie was selling coaching sessions on her website for her family. This presents an agonizing dilemma. A chance, however slim, to reach out to glimpse the Stephanie they knew. Yet the path they chose was one of incredible restraint and ultimate grace.

[Paula Hardy]

I don't want to cross any boundaries with her. I still want to show her a sense of respect and trust in this process. I don't want to control it for her or have the perception of control for her. I want to tell my story, which is why I'm here today. I don't want to tell hers. And I think the more that we try to push and enforce a relationship that she clearly at this moment, is not wanting the guarantee that that will be used against us. In reality, we're damned if we do or damned if we don't. We say nothing. We show no interest. And they don't love you. They don't care enough. They're not going to push for you. They're not going to pursue you or you do show interest and they don't respect your boundaries. They don't trust you. They don't love you. Look, they don't respect your boundaries. But I know for me, I can just do what I can to show her the love and trust and respect that one day. I'm hoping that she'll understand. And I don't want it to seem selfish in any way. And so I have not pursued that because I don't want to do that for me. That wouldn't be for her. That clearly wouldn't be for her. Me pushing through and forcing interaction would not be for her. It would be for me. And that, in this space, is clearly not what she wants or needs. And you know what? I don't really need that right now either, because I love her and I know she will make the right decision with the information that she has in the right time. So I'm just giving her space and allowing her to do that. I don't know if anyone else in our inner circle has done that. I think the world actually kind of did that, possibly after the documentary because her website went down for a little while. I'm pretty sure there was a moment. I'm not sure if it's still the case where you couldn't even book with the coaches individually. You had to go through Twin Flames Universe website in order to book the coaches. So everybody was being screened, too. You have to send a message of interest and give your email and your phone number. And so even if someone wanted to do that from her family, it would never get to her.

[Nicole Lapin]

I mean, your perspective on this is so incredibly kind and evolved. Luis, what do you wish the broader public understood about how this beautiful, intelligent, loving person, Stephanie, could become entangled in and fall victim to a scam like tfu.

[Luis Cole]

You know, I watch a lot of groups, I watch a lot of videos of people, like dissecting the documentaries. And of course you read the comments and people are like, how can anybody fall for this? And you know, these people are stupid. And it's very frustrating because Stephanie is anything but stupid. She is so smart, she is so educated. And again, like Paula said, she's a go getter. She's focused and driven. But that's the kind of people they go after. They want somebody that's going to work their tail off for them to make more money. And the problem with cults and groups like this is that love bombing starts and it fulfills something in the people that they're love bombing. They are promised everything, and it's like, who wouldn't want everything they're promising? By the time you have fallen in the trap, the door's already closed and you don't even realize it. That's what I want people to know is it can happen to anyone under the right circumstances. And they got Stephanie during the right circumstances.

[Nicole Lapin]

You were also hit with a defamation suit initiated by tfu, right. How much did that cost you?

[Luis Cole]

It was like $28,000, almost $30,000 to defend yourself. And that's because I spoke with a reporter for the Vice article. I didn't really even see say anything or defame them in any way. I just talked about my daughter. But they wanted to sue everybody that spoke in the article that gave their name, and I was freely giving my name. Again, what do I have to lose? I'm not afraid to say who I am and that I'm Stephanie's mother. I'm not going to be anonymous. I got something to say. I'm going to say it. And they tried to sue me.

[Nicole Lapin]

And despite that, you remain resolute in your determination to speak out, case in point?

[Luis Cole]

Absolutely.

[Nicole Lapin]

Can you talk about the emotional financial burden of the legal battle and what sort of inner strength or conviction allows you to continue to persist despite such a significant personal cost or risk?

[Luis Cole]

Well, again, we are not rich, so we didn't have the money for that. I had to put it on a credit card and which of course ends up costing more. But it was a hardship. But again, I'm not one to run away or hide. I call it like it is. I can be very boisterous and speak my mind. I don't ever mean to hurt anybody, but I'm not going to roll over for anybody. I'm going to say it like it is. Financially, it was tough. But that's my daughter. I don't care if she's 70 years old and I'm 100. She'll always be my daughter. My babies will always be my babies, no matter how old they are. I love all my children the same, and I will fight for every single one of them the same. A mother's got to do what a mother's got to do. It just keeps me going. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try. [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of 45 for.

[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

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[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

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[Paula Hardy]

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[Nicole Lapin]

Wednesday Season 2 is now playing only on Netflix. But Luis and Paula's advocacy goes way beyond just wanting to help Stephanie. They're committed to helping other families understand the early warning signs of high control groups. So what warning would they want to give to other families?

[Paula Hardy]

I first and foremost want to make sure that everyone understands the power of your own intuition and your gut feelings. If something doesn't feel right, if someone doesn't feel right, please don't just explain it away. And especially if you see or feel series of cracks that just don't feel right. If you're having to explain things away or justify frequently, then there's a problem there. And I think that's a good place to start right off the bat. If you know nothing else, whether it's about financial scams or, you know, schools or spiritual practices or whatever it happens to be, listen to your gut. And especially with these groups or situations that their teachings or their framework prevents you, legitimately prevents you from listening to your gut. That's part of their teaching is the mirror exercise, which if you are feeling something specifically if it's negative, but no matter what you're feeling that you're having a problem, you have to go through this exercise called the mirror exercise where you internalize it and more or less take the blame. Make the problem about yourself. You have created the problem and then fix the problem yourself internally. And so you take responsibility for everyone else's actions. I like to think about these types of scams, these groups, hiking control groups, cults. It's like the same story, different font, they've got a lot of the same tactics, but they kind of dress it up differently and use different language and terminology and what have you. But there's generally something that stops you from listening to your own intuition and gets you to blame yourself for something not going well or correctly. And I think that's also a huge red flag. And then also, if there's always a fire to put out and you have to be the one to put it out, if you're always running around and spending all of your time handling all of these situations, then take a step back and consider, is it possible that a lot of these situations could be created by that entity in order to keep you busy, occupied, so you can't think critically or ask questions, so you don't have time to truly see the reality of what's happening because you're too busy in the weeds putting out all the fires. That's another piece that I really like to think about. And whether that's in the workplace, in a romantic relationship, in a spiritual practice, those are two really big sort of red flags to keep in mind to get you to stop and think critically. Sometimes it's okay to not think with your emotions.

[Nicole Lapin]

Looking ahead, Paula, what are the hopes that you have for Stephanie's future for other individuals still involved with Twin Flames Universe?

[Paula Hardy]

I just want her to be safe, physically, emotionally, financially. And if that involves us, that would make me so incredibly happy. But if it doesn't involve us, I also understand I'm not here to be self serving in this. I'm not here to make it about me or to force her into anything. I just truly want her to be healthy and safe. If she wants to come back to us, she has a room, she has support, she has love, she has a plane ticket, she has a car. Like whatever she needs, she will have if that's what she needs to be safe. Because we love her and we'll do anything for her. But if that anything for her means that she needs space from us. But as long as she gets out of this group, I'm okay with that too, because that's what she needs to be safe. So what that looks like is really determined by her. And I am desperately hoping that she hears that and that she understands that. Because right now we have no way to reach out to her and tell her that. And I do know that our story is being told by Jeff and Shalia to her where they are complaining, this group and these leaders are complaining that their story, they're not able to tell their own story, and yet they are telling our story, her family, to her, without us. Just want to throw that back at them, allow us to tell our story to her, allow her to listen so that way she can make her own decision if she truly is free. Free to do so. If she is not free to do so, of course she will be prevented from listening to this and hearing what we have to say and hearing our story. So that's my challenge. I'm just really hoping that she's allowed that she's been given permission by this group and these leaders. Or maybe it's not a permission thing. Maybe it is a guilt trip, maybe it is a punishment, Maybe it is a harassment to her if she doesn't do exactly what they say. Either way, that is absolute manipulation, textbook manipulation. And that's coerced decision making. That's not healthy or safe. I just want her to be healthy and safe. And whatever she needs from us to do that, I'm here. I absolutely, desperately want to help and provide that for her. And I think about her all the time. And last week was our birthday, so happy birthday, Stephen. Please know, Steph, that mom and I did try to see you in Sedona at the sedona conference in 2020. I think it was for our 30th birthday. We came with birthday gifts for you to hopefully be able to see you, knowing that you had intended to be there and just wanting to express our love and gratitude to you in those moments. And unfortunately, we're not able to do that. She wasn't able to go after all, because it was Covid and because she's in a different country, she was able to travel back to the U.S. but her partner was not, because her partner is not a U.S. citizen. And so they stayed and they did not end up coming here to Sedona, Arizona. We live in Phoenix, Arizona for that conference. But we were there and we were waiting for her. And we love you and we just hope one day, if it be your wish, to reunite. That's my hope. Yeah.

[Luis Cole]

We're waiting with open arms and under her terms, we'll always be here.

[Nicole Lapin]

What's your gut say that that will happen or that she's even able to listen to this?

[Luis Cole]

I think anything that talks about tfu and I could Be wrong. But I believe that current members are encouraged to not listen, to pay attention, watch anything like this. Kind of like being told to cut your family off. They don't want anybody to have some kind of influence over them. They only want the influence. So personally, I doubt if she'll ever see or hear this. I would pray that she would. And again, like Paula, she's the first thing I think of in the morning and the last thing I think of at night. So we're here. That's really all I want her to know, is we're here.

[Paula Hardy]

I think what it might take is just enough dissonance in her life, enough contrasting what's being said and what's actually being done in her experience. Dr. Janja Lalich, the one of the biggest cult experts in the world right now, actually. She has this concept of the shelf. When people proverbially wake up from a high control system, when something doesn't make sense, or when there's a contrast in beliefs or a disconnect or a problem, an issue, something just doesn't add up logically. It goes against their ideology. A lot of times what these people do is they'll take that, they'll package it up and they'll put it on the shelf behind them. Does it's handled later. I just don't want to think about it. They shut it down, they shut it off, they explain it away and they put it on the shelf. And her concept is when you have enough of those scenarios, those situations that you've shoved up on that shelf, the shelf inevitably breaks. And it could be from the smallest little moment that no one could have ever thought could make it all make sense or provide clarity. And sometimes they're big moments, but a lot of the times they're just these small little things that it just. It's enough. You know, it's that piece of straw that broke the camel's back. It's what breaks that shelf. And so I don't know if there's a good answer to that. I wish there was a better understanding of what it takes to get someone to see what's truly happening. But I think it'll just take more and more of those moments of dissonance and contrast and that shelf breaking. And then it'll take time of understanding what does it take to extract myself? And that could take some time too. There's really no telling where she's at in that journey. And especially when you're in a different country, you're legally bound to someone else. It's just so complicated. But I think the biggest drop in the bucket would be an arrest. I really think that will help put a lot of things into perspective for a lot of the members. Because this entire group's ideology is if you're ascended enough, you can make anything happen, you can manifest anything, or manifest you know that something doesn't happen. And so how do you have that belief system that your entire ideology, both your for profit and not for profit church believes and then also have the leader who is supposed to be the ascended master, the second coming arrested, didn't he then manifest that? You can't logically make that make sense. Of course when you're in high control groups everything is emotional or most things are emotional. So that takes time too. But I think that might need to be what has to happen. And especially with evidence, logical, structured, legitimate evidence. I think that's what I take. But who knows, it could be something really small.

[Nicole Lapin]

Luis Paula, thank you so much for being here and shedding some light on such a difficult but important topic.

[Luis Cole]

Thank.

[Paula Hardy]

You.

[Nicole Lapin]

Scams, Money and Murder is hosted by me, Nicole Lapin and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, Our guests today were Luis Cole and Paula Hardy. If you have any information about TFU that you would like to share with the Michigan Attorney General's Office, you can email ag-tfu infoichigan.gov we'll have this email and other resources in the episode description As a reminder, even if you don't do have an NDA with tfu, a subpoena carries more legal weight than an NDA. So please don't be afraid to come forward with any important information that you might have that could help yourself or others. Thank you so much for listening. I'm your host Nicole Lapin. Scams, Money and Murder is a Crime House original. Join me every Thursday for a brand new episode here at Crime House. We want to thank each and every one of you for your continued support. If you like what you heard here today, reach out on all social media at Crime House. And don't forget to rate, review and follow Scams, Money and Murder wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And for ad free listening plus early access and bonus content, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. This episode was brought to life by the Scams, Money and Murder team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Stacey Warrenker, Sarah Camp and Paul Libeskin.

[Paula Hardy]

Foreign.

[Nicole Lapin]

Looking for your next listen from our Crime House slate of shows? Don't miss Murder True Crime Stories Carter Roy is looking into one of the most haunting, mysterious, unsolved cases out there. The Boy in the Box Listen to and follow murder True crime stories every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen.