Loading summary
Transcript404 lines
- [00:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi listeners, it's Vanessa. Before today's episode, I want to take a brief moment to tell you about a show from Crime House's sister studio, Rewind, that I know you'll love. It's called Government that Doesn't Suck, hosted by professors Lindsay Cormack and Greg Jackson from History that Doesn't Suck. Ever wonder how the weather forecast on your phone is so accurate? Or how your mail still gets across the country for less than a dollar? Or who actually built the highway you drove on this morning? Each episode tells the surpr of an American institution that you'll never look at the same way again. Listen to and follow Government that Doesn't Suck every other Monday on Apple podcasts and Spotify or watch video episodes on YouTube.
- [00:55]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
This is Crime House. They didn't look like people who were about to die.
- [01:02]
Corinne Vien
They looked peaceful, organized.
- [01:05]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Certain 39 people dressed the same, laid out the same, all believing they were about to leave Earth behind.
- [01:15]
Corinne Vien
Not metaphorically, literally.
- [01:19]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
They believed a spacecraft was waiting for them hidden behind a comet and the
- [01:26]
Corinne Vien
only way to get there was to die.
- [01:33]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Welcome to our brand new season, Crimes of Cults. I'm Sabrina deannaroga.
- [01:40]
Corinne Vien
I'm Corinne Vien.
- [01:42]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And this season we are diving into some of the world's most dangerous cults and the charismatic leaders who promised salvation but instead led their followers to ruin. We're going to ask the chilling question of when does belief become control? And how can you tell the difference between faith and manipulation, between hope and fear?
- [02:05]
Corinne Vien
Subscribe now and step inside the world of Crimes.
- [02:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Up the Case of Heaven's Gate starts now.
- [02:15]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
If you've been holding back on launching your dream business, it's time to stop making excuses. Shopify is where you finally go to get started. They offer everything you need to succeed. From day one. They completely simplify the process so you can focus on what matters. Think about how you want your brand a look. Imagine the confidence of launching with a world class checkout system already built into it, allowing your customers to buy effortlessly in just one click. Whenever you run into a roadblock or find yourself asking those tough startup questions, Shopify's AI assistant called Sidekick is right there to help you build and troubleshoot. You get to build your dream on the same reliable platform that powers household names like Mattel, saving you time to scale. All you need is the idea. Shopify handles the rest. Go to shopify.com, to start your free trial today. That's shopify.com tinderfoot shopify.com tinderfoot summer routines live or die by how easy they are. And honestly, if something takes too much effort, I'm out. That's why Groons is my go to. It's one daily pack of gummies covering my greens, vitamins and minerals. Plus it has 6 grams of prebiotic fiber, which is more than 2 cups of broccoli. No mixing powders, no giant pills, no hassle. Just rip open the pack and I'm done. They taste good and it makes it easy to stay on top of my health even when life gets Busy. Save up to 52% off with code podcast at Grunes Co that's Code Podcast R U N S co
- [03:45]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
welcome to Crimes of Cults, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. We're your hosts, Corinne Vien and Sabrina Deanna Roga.
- [03:54]
Corinne Vien
Every Tuesday we're exploring a different corner of the true crime universe, examining cases that left a permanent impact on society. And as the name suggests, this season is all about cults. So we are diving into some of the world's most dangerous cults and the charismatic leaders who promised salvation but instead led their followers to ruin. We're going to ask the chilling question of when does belief become control? And how can you tell the difference between faith and manipulation, between hope and fear?
- [04:25]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
If you're loving crimes of Please follow rate and review us wherever you listen. It helps us build this community and we love hearing from you. And to get early access and ad free listening, subscribe to the Crime House plus community on Apple Podcasts and you can also catch us on YouTube where we include visuals that bring every case to life.
- [04:43]
Corinne Vien
Today we're covering Heaven's Gate, the cult that shocked the world in 1997 when all 39 of its members died in a coordinated mass suicide. Led by Marshall Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles, the members of Heaven's Gate believed that heaven was not a metaphor or a spiritual realm, but a literal physical destination. And there was only one way to get there. By ufo.
- [05:10]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And to earn a seat on this ufo, Marshall and Bonnie demanded absolute obedience from their members. They were told to cut off all contact with their loved ones, get rid of their belongings, abandon their birth names, suppress their sexual identities, and ultimately, to give up their lives. March 26, 1997. Detective Rick Sculley is in the middle of what should be a routine day, because in Rancho Santa Fe, most calls are gated communities. Manicured lawns, long private driveways. It's the kind of place where serious crimes are very rare. All of a sudden, static comes over his radio, followed by A voice asking Scully to do a welfare check at a home in Collina Norte. Scully turns his key in the ignition. The engine purrs to life, and he's on his way. During the drive, dispatch fills him in. A man named Rio D' Angelo called 911 to report something was wrong at the house. And Detective Scully bets this will be, like most other calls, uneventful. By the time he and the other deputies arrive at 18241 Colina Norte, the sun is still high over the California hills. He makes his way up to the sun. Bleached stucco house. The sprawling mansion is framed by immaculate landscaping. It's practically picture perfect. They approach the house, and Scully knocks on the door. Sheriff's department. Nobody answers. They try again. Still nothing. So they make entry. And almost immediately, they are hit with the smell. It's overwhelming. Thick, sweet, putrid. The kind of smell that clings to the back of your throat, it's so strong. Some of the deputies struggle to stay inside. And Scully knows that this isn't going to be uneventful. In fact, he knows that something is very, very wrong. Scully keeps moving inside, and despite the horrid smell, the house is immaculate. Everything is neat. Too neat. Then he makes his way into the first bedroom. And at first, it's hard to process what he's seeing. There are multiple beds, and at the foot of every bed are a pair of shoes placed identically. Black Nike decades lined up like uniforms waiting for inspection. Then there's the sheets. Purple, carefully draped over all four beds, covering what Skully is certain our bodies. Bracing himself, Detective Scully kneels and lifts the corner of one of the sheets. A woman lies underneath. She's still calm, and there's a plastic bag sealed over her head. She is deceased, but despite the horror, her expression is serene. It's almost as if she's sleeping. Scully takes a deep breath, places the sheet back and begins to count. Room after room reveals the same grim discovery, each one more surreal than the last. Skully counts one, two, three bodies. And it just keeps going, all the way up to 39. Each body arranged with eerie precision. Everything about this scene feels controlled, intentional. 39 bodies laid out the same way, as if they had followed the same instructions. In all his years with San Diego Sheriff's Department, Detective Sculley has never seen anything like this. As more deputies arrive and carefully secure the scene, the scale of it truly begins to sink in. Sculley is left standing in the center of the house, nearly dumbfounded, with one chilling question remaining in his mind. What the hell happened in this house? Was this a mass murder or something else entirely?
- [09:01]
Corinne Vien
I can't even imagine what it would be like to encounter that scene because it is so confusing. Like, so many people dead. You're like, okay, well, is this a murder? But then there's nothing violent, outwardly violent, that you can see about the crime, so it's disturbing. But 39 dead bodies and this case baffled the police and truly, anyone who's ever studied or heard about it. Yeah. And unfortunately, we still don't have all the answers because all of the active members of Heaven's Gate died that day in March of 1997, taking a lot of the group's secrets with them. And even decades later, people like us were still trying to make sense of it all.
- [09:39]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes. And this crime scene alone is unlike anything anyone had ever seen before. So we're going to tell the story kind of through the perspective of the investigators who came across this scene in. In 1997 and how they pieced it all together. So initially, they treated this as a potential mass homicide, but like you were saying, nothing about that actually fit. There was no forced entry, no signs of struggle, no indication of violence. But they were like, we have to secure this as a crime scene and figure it out. So they started going through every piece of evidence that they could find, and
- [10:15]
Corinne Vien
they knew that on March 27, 1997, a man named Rio DeAngelo had called 911 to report something going on at 18241 Calina Norte in Rancho Santa Fe, California. But even that initial tip was a little bit strange. It turns out that Rio knew the people inside of the house, and he'd even been pretty close with them as recently as just a few weeks earlier. According to Rio, he had received a package in the mail, and the return address was the address of the home in Calina Norte. Inside of the package was a letter, two videotapes, a hand drawn map to the house. So, like, what a weird thing to receive.
- [10:55]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes.
- [10:56]
Corinne Vien
When Ryo followed the map, I love that he was just like, I'll go on this adventure and we'll talk about
- [11:01]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
him more too, like, later in the episode.
- [11:02]
Corinne Vien
But yeah, so he follows the map and he comes upon the house and the disturbing crime scene. So he called the police immediately. But it took more than two hours to. To actually have anyone show up, because they thought that they were just, like, dealing with a standard welfare check. Rio didn't quite articulate exactly what was going on. And when they did finally arrive, the scene was so bizarre. That they just didn't even understand how to go about it. It was just devastating. Yeah.
- [11:33]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And like we described in the narrative, inside the home, police discovered 39 bodies. All 39 people were positioned on their backs. All 39 of them were covered with identical purple shrouds. And each person was wearing the same clothes, almost like a uniform. An all black jumpsuit with a matching patch on their arms and a pair of black and white Nike Decades that were all placed at the foot of their beds. The patches on their arms read Heaven's Gate away team. And it had images of shooting stars. It's like almost like a spacesuit in a way.
- [12:08]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [12:09]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
In addition to these uniforms, each of them had exactly $5.75 in their pockets. Like, exact change. Like, the bills were the same, the coins were the same. Everything was identical.
- [12:21]
Corinne Vien
But, like, to anyone on the outside, you're like, how does any of this make sense?
- [12:24]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Like, what?
- [12:24]
Corinne Vien
How does it come together?
- [12:27]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Which is why police at first was like, is this some type of, like, ritualistic killing?
- [12:31]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [12:32]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Which is why they're like, is this murder? We don't know. And 37 of the 39 victims had a plastic bag placed over their heads as if they had been suffocated, which meant two victims did not have plastic bags over their heads. But here's the thing. The manner in which the bodies were found did not indicate that they had died of suffocation. There were no signs of a struggle. Everyone appeared peaceful, as if they had been sleeping. So over the course of the next few days, working closely with medical examiners and crime scene technicians, investigators start to put it together. The official cause of death for all 39 was members or people was acute phenobarbital poisoning with alcohol followed by asphyxiation. So all 39 victims ingested a lethal dose of phenobarbital, a powerful sedative mixed with vodka. And then some were mixed with, like, pudding or applesauce. That was, like, what was found in their stomachs. After losing consciousness, a plastic bag was then placed over their heads, causing asphyxiation. Even more shocking, it was discovered that these 39 deaths did not occur in one single day. It happened in three days, which is
- [13:48]
Corinne Vien
even more, like, up.
- [13:50]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
It's so fucked up because you would
- [13:51]
Corinne Vien
think that, like, someone would see someone else dead on the floor there and be like, nope, I'm not doing it anymore. Like, they had the opportunity to back out.
- [13:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
That's how, like, deep in all of these people were.
- [14:00]
Corinne Vien
Also, I'm confused as to why they did the plastic bags, when they were already getting lethal dose of sedative was just to insure it in.
- [14:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Okay, yeah, so, and that like they find this. So they're obviously shocked. They're like, they don't understand what's going on, what does this all mean? So they piece it all together with evidence that they found in the house. And it leads them to realize that this is not a mass homicide. This is a mass suicide. Documents found inside the home detailed what was called the protocol. And it explained the whole thing started about a week earlier, on March 21, 1997, 39 members of Heaven's Gate all shared their last meal. They went to a Marie Callender's restaurant and they all ordered the exact same thing. A large turkey pot pie, a side salad, a slice of blueberry cheesecake with iced tea.
- [14:49]
Corinne Vien
Wait, this is a great order.
- [14:51]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
It's a great last meal, right? When they got back home, 15 of them. Because this is day one of the phase of the protocol, as it was called in these documents, 15 chose either vodka pudding or applesauce mixed with a lethal dose of phenobarbital and hydrocodone. Then one by one, they carefully consumed the mixture and they laid down on these beds. The other members then tied plastic bags over their heads to make sure they did die after the drugs kicked in. And when they passed away, the other members straightened the bodies, covered each of them neatly with a folded purple sheet. And then the next day, 15 more members followed that same protocol. And then on the third day, six more followed. That left just two members, one devoted follower and their leader, 65 year old Marshall Applewhite. After confirming that all other members in the first two waves had officially had no pulse, they too died. But they took their own lives. They were the two that had no plastic bags over their heads, which meant that they had to watch 37 people die and help kill 37 people before also doing the same thing.
- [16:06]
Corinne Vien
And this is very morbid of me to even like want to know, but I am curious what happened? Like when they all lay down, like, are they quiet? Are they listening to something? Are they singing something? Are they just like randomly chatting? I don't know. I just can't imagine. No, like, what you go through after you take it, knowing what's going to come, but then you're like laying next to some of your closest friends.
- [16:29]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, I think about Jonestown too. Like, yeah, I mean granted that was a much bigger scale, but like that's a.
- [16:35]
Corinne Vien
Don't drink the Kool Aid. 1 yeah.
- [16:37]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Did people have second thoughts about it? Did anyone try?
- [16:41]
Corinne Vien
They did. So, like, Jonestown, we actually know Jonestown.
- [16:43]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
We know, but I mean, with this one. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [16:45]
Corinne Vien
Because Jonestown had survivors, Jonestown had kids. Jonestown had.
- [16:49]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I know.
- [16:49]
Corinne Vien
People who, like, second guessed and escaped. I know this one. We.
- [16:55]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
We don't know.
- [16:56]
Corinne Vien
We don't know. This isn't just a story about death. This is a story about, like, how far people are willing to go for their beliefs. And it is confusing if you're not in it to try to understand it.
- [17:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right. And how can someone be led to this place? Like, how long does it take? Is it manipulation? But the truth is it's not happening overnight, Right?
- [17:17]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. So with all the forensic evidence, investigators realized that this was a mass suicide, not a mass murder. A mass suicide. But why? Why did 39 people willingly die by suicide in such a manner? Police slowly found evidence all over the house that supported this. There were written statements from those who had died, piles of computer equipment and even documents explaining exactly how they would go about dying. And then there were the tapes, the Earth Exit statements, which were videos where the members introduced themselves and would say their final goodbyes.
- [17:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Are killing.
- [17:58]
Corinne Vien
I can't imagine sitting down and doing that. In one video, two young men sit side by side. And they don't look scared, they don't look coerced, they actually look excited. One of them smiles and says, this is the happiest day of my life. I've been looking forward to this for so long. From my perspective, this is the answer to everything. The other emphasized that their involvement in Heaven's Gate and what they were about to do was entirely their own choice. He explained, we've always had free reign to come and go, to believe or not believe. And then another member gushed, I can't express how good I feel about what I'm doing right now and how good I feel about being here. The opportunity, the gift, is overwhelming. I am the happiest person in the world. Yeah. Which is even more confusing to, like, watch these tapes of people, like, declaring that they are the happiest. So incredibly happy and then about to do what they did. But for investigators, the tapes only made the whole thing more mysterious. And that is when they began to piece together what we now know as
- [19:06]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Heaven's Gate Cult on One Earth Exit Statement. And that's what they were called Earth Exit Statements.
- [19:13]
Corinne Vien
Literally feels like a movie.
- [19:14]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes. Like a sci fi movie.
- [19:16]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. Like you're about to get on your UFO and travel to Mars. And you don't know when you'll be back, but, like, you're gonna go have new civilization on another planet.
- [19:24]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
But one member told viewers to go visit the Heaven's Gate website to learn more about their mission. So authorities pull up this website, and they found it had been updated the very same night, day that the suicides had started. And it read, hale Bopp's approach is the marker we've been waiting for. The time for the arrival of the spacecraft to take us home to the literal heavens. Our 22 years of classroom here on planet Earth is finally coming to conclusion. Graduation from the human evolutionary level brought up more questions than answers. Yeah, here's what they found. And again, it's important to note that everything we do know is from, like, what was on the website and from members who had, at some point, left the group. So we don't really have the exact details. We don't know what happened, the moment
- [20:14]
Corinne Vien
of those deaths, or, like, what even evolved in the last few days. Like, it could have really.
- [20:19]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:19]
Corinne Vien
Spiraled past what other people have even said.
- [20:23]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So what they discovered was that the group's leader, Marshall Applewhite, was fascinated by a Hale Bopp comet, which was soaring past Earth in 1997. This was, like, a big thing. It was so bright that it could be seen for 18 months without a telescope. When we were so young that, like, I don't remember that, but I'm sure it was a really exciting astrological event. Astronomical.
- [20:45]
Corinne Vien
Five.
- [20:45]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Astronomical.
- [20:46]
Corinne Vien
How old were we?
- [20:47]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Four. Four. Yeah, yeah. Four. Yeah, yeah.
- [20:52]
Corinne Vien
We're not even four. No memory.
- [20:53]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Three and a half. But Marshall was interested in Hale Bopp for far more than its beauty. He believed that it was being followed by a ufo, and that this UFO was on its way to Earth to take him and the members of Heaven's Gate to a higher dimension that they called the next level. But to do that and for the UFO to take them to the next level, Marshall believed that all of them had to shed what they called their vehicles. They're human bodies. We like to call them meat suits. But Marshall and Heaven's Gate called them vehicles. To them, their vehicles were bodies that were just temporary modes of transportation that they wouldn't need once they got to the spacecraft. So from the group's perspective, what the investigators were seeing was not a tragedy, but it was their graduation to the next level.
- [21:48]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [21:49]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So to put it in, like, simpler terms, in one succinct sentence, investigators uncovered that this mass suicide was the result of a cult, all of which members were convinced that a spacecraft was traveling with the Hale Bopp comet that was waiting for them, and in order to board this spacecraft, they had to die here on Earth. So it became very clear to them they were dealing with a cult.
- [22:13]
Corinne Vien
But like, that's where I would raise my hand and I'd say, okay, well, once we shed our meat suits, how do we then get to the ufo? Does it not make sense to just go to the UFO first and then shed our meat suit there?
- [22:25]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, I think it was like the idea of like your soul would then transcend and get taken up.
- [22:29]
Corinne Vien
Well, how do you direct it to the UFO and not to heaven or hell or anywhere else in the world?
- [22:33]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
This is why you would not be in a cult, because you ask too many questions.
- [22:36]
Corinne Vien
I'd re flat. Then I'd become the leader. I'm like, guys, I rewrote this. I think it makes a little more sense now.
- [22:42]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes, you are much more likely to be a leader and I'm much more likely to be a member.
- [22:47]
Corinne Vien
Foreign
- [22:50]
Vanessa Richardson
We've all been there. You look up. Suddenly life has thrown so much at you that your to do list is completely out of control. For me, it was last month when I moved and I needed to install a cabinet in my bathroom and fix a broken light fixture. I knew just where to turn. Finding A tasker on TaskRabbit makes tackling your to do list even easier, and I honestly felt this wave of blissful relief watching a seasoned tasker handle it all in a couple of hours. I like to use the same Tasker for home repairs, but I know if he's not available, the app is filled than qualified taskers. TaskRabbit is an app that makes everyday life easier by helping people get more done around the home. It connects you with skilled taskers in your area for everything from mounting and yard work to home repairs. You can search for the best tasker for the job based on cost, skill set availability, and past client reviews, so you always feel confident. I use TaskRabbit and you should check it out too. When life happens, your to do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task@taskrabbit.com or on the TaskRabbit app. Using promo Code Crime House Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That's $15 off your first task using promo code crime house with the TaskRabbit app or@taskrabbit.com hi listeners, it's Vanessa Richardson on a special four episode Conspiracy Theories, Cults and crime series. I'm taking you to four kinds of dream getaways that went from paradise to deadly. A woman vanishes while snorkeling off Aruba. Two backpackers murdered on a moonlit beach in Thailand. An NBA champion who disappears off his own catamaran in the South Pacific. These were supposed to be the trips of a lifetime. Listen to our special Deadly Destination series every Sunday on conspiracy theories, cults and crimes. Or if you don't want to wait, all four episodes are available right now ad free on Crime House Plus. To join Crime House plus, subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or at crimehouseplus.com.
- [24:57]
Corinne Vien
39 people willingly died by suicide for what sounds like bizarre ideology to us. But again, you really have to be in something to understand it. And as you can imagine, days after the discovery, the story spread fast. 39 people, a mass suicide, a UFO. Most headlines would read things like bizarre UFO cults and things that are really catchy, which led to two different public reactions. One was fear, because this was after Waco and the satanic panic, and people were terrified of mind control and cults and that sort of thing. And then the other kind of this is so unfortunate. Like, they turned it into a punchline. It was like a big joke because it sounds so bizarre. And you're like, because it sounds fake, right? It's like because the UFO and aliens are involved. I think it became more of like a ha ha thing, even though 39 people lost their lives. But for example, SNL at the time aired a sketch with Nike's slogan, just do it and superimposed over photos of the victim's bodies. Basically.
- [25:59]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Like actual photos. Yeah, yeah.
- [26:02]
Corinne Vien
And the morbid fascination didn't stop there. People clamored to own a pair of 93 decade Nikes, and Nike's actually pulled the model from production almost immediately. But that only fueled more demand. And ironically, Marshall picked out the Decades solely because they were cheap and he bought all 39 pairs for under $400. But now this type of Nike shoe sells for well over $5,000. One pair. 5,000 pairs. Because cult members wore them, died in these shoes.
- [26:37]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:39]
Corinne Vien
So both reactions from the public came from a place of misunderstanding because, no, these people were not crazy. They were people with lives and families and careers, people who were looking for something. They were looking for a purpose. They were looking for meaning. Which brings us to how did these people, who could be you or me or you, like, how did they get to the point where they were able to do this. And that brings us to one man, Marshall Applewhite.
- [27:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
If you have heard of Heaven's Gate, you likely do know the name Marshall Applewhite because he is known as the cult leader. I debate that. He for sure was second in command for a while, but then ultimately, in the end, he was the leader. But in order to understand how Heaven's Gate came to be and how they got to their final moments, let's go back to the beginning, because I think, like Marshall Applewhite's background actually informs so much of this. Marshall Applewhite was born on May 17, 1931, in a small city called Spur in Texas. And he was born into a very conservative Presbyterian family. He was the son of a minister. And like church was not something that his family went to and attended and did, it was who they were. His father was a minister or a preacher. His mother was the director of the choir. And his life was very, very structured. There was discipline. There was a clear line between right and wrong. And Marshall was very much expected to follow in the footsteps of his father and to follow those rules that they had laid out for him. And for a while, he did. He was intelligent, well liked, and studious. Step one was to graduate high school. He did so in 1948. Step two, attend college. Marshall enrolled at Austin College to study philosophy. In 1952, Marshall graduated with his bachelor's degree. His next step was get married. He met and married a woman named Ann Francis Pierce. And continuing along this path, he and Anne started a family and had two children together. Everything was on track for Marshall to keep this quiet, uneventful life that he had been, like, destined for. According to his parents, he even signed up for seminary school in North Carolina to follow in his father's footsteps as a minister. But here's the thing. While he felt this pressure and felt like he needed to conform to his parents expectations, he had to then give up a lot of what he really wanted and who he really was. He had to hide his identity, his sexuality, his sense of self, and his true passion, which was for music.
- [29:18]
Corinne Vien
Yeah, if only he could have been introduced to the world of drag. I feel like that would have really done a lot for him.
- [29:23]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
But his parents never would have let him. That's the thing.
- [29:26]
Corinne Vien
I know.
- [29:26]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [29:26]
Corinne Vien
Move away, leave, do something. So, yeah, music was his real passion. But he didn't want to disappoint his parents, so he stayed to the path. But ultimately, after just a couple semesters of seminary school, Marshall dropped out to become A music director of the Presbyterian church in Charlotte. And it seemed like Marshall was a lot happier with this situation.
- [29:48]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right. Cause he was doing at least some of his passion.
- [29:51]
Corinne Vien
It was, like, a bit of please the parents, but also something for him.
- [29:54]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [29:55]
Corinne Vien
But then he was drafted into the army in 1954, and he eventually became a sergeant and was honorably discharged in 1956. Him becoming a sergeant is already, like, proof of leadership skills, too.
- [30:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right.
- [30:08]
Corinne Vien
There's not, like, huge leaps in what we're going to come to. So once he was out of the military, Marshall decided to follow his passion for music more seriously, and he went back to school and earned his master's degree in music, which you're like, yes. Go, Marshall. Like, you're doing it. You're doing something for yourself. He had dreams. He's gonna chase them. We support that. After getting his master's, Marshall moved his family to New York because his dream was to be a Broadway star.
- [30:34]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Like, it really does seem like going to the army actually maybe helped him
- [30:37]
Corinne Vien
a little bit to create some distance
- [30:40]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
and maybe, like, pursue things for yourself.
- [30:44]
Corinne Vien
Right. And I think there's a lot of people who were in the army that were also having to hide exactly who they were, too. Yes. So he wanted to be a Broadway star, but we know the reputation of Broadway. There aren't that many spots. There's a lot of talented people out there. It's not that easy to make it. So he needed to support his family, he needed to support himself, so he had to have a steady income.
- [31:06]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [31:06]
Corinne Vien
So Marshall turned back to academics and landed a job as a music professor at the University of Alabama. And it is here that Marshall's life takes a massive turn, because in 1965, Marshall Applewhite was fired for having a sexual relationship with a student, a male graduate student. And immediately his wife Ann left him.
- [31:31]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [31:32]
Corinne Vien
And this was just so catastrophic for Marshall. Every part of his life is collapsing in this moment. His job, his marriage, his sense of self. I'm sure there was a lot of fear about, like, his reputation and how people who loved him would see him.
- [31:44]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right. And we have to remember that this is happening deep south in the early 60s. And Marshall had grown up in this very, very religious family. And while we can, like, now today be like, okay, Marshall, you were gay, and, like, you had feelings for men, that was not accepted and not something that he could ever really identify with because it was so ingrained in him that that was wrong and not accepted. So Marshall tried to keep his family together. He tried to like, shove that part of himself down. But that caused him to spiral. And it only got worse when Ann did divorce him and was granted full custody of their kids in 1968. So she left him, took the kids. Marshall moved to Houston, and he tried to focus on his career and his passion for musical theater. He got a job as the chair of a music department at the University of St. Thomas, and he threw himself into the local theater scene.
- [32:39]
Corinne Vien
But tragedy struck again when his dad died in 1971. And as you can imagine with what we've told you about his upbringing, Marshall's mental state got even more erratic after this. Yeah, he was trying to live life as someone who he thought his father wanted him to be while truly suffocating and bearing down his true self. And it's after his father's death that people really started to see this sort of, like, shift in Marshall. His theater friends noticed that he was extremely anxious and paranoid now. And he used to be very articulate, a very even tempered guy. Patsy Swayze, who's. I love this movie. The mom. The mother of Patrick Swayze. Why can't you say. Can I say Swayze Point for a second? You know who I'm talking about. She actually knew Marshall from the Houston theater scene.
- [33:26]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah. They were in the same theater group.
- [33:28]
Corinne Vien
How wild is that? I know, like, it's always interesting when there's, like, little connections, little celebrities popping up. When she heard some gossip that Marshall was talking people's ears off about UFOs, she got really freaked out, especially because this was so out of character for him. So it was like his dad's death kind of marked like something snapped, something broke in him. Yeah, yeah.
- [33:48]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Something shifted in him after his father's death. And we always say this. We're not professionals, we're not psychologists. We can't diagnose someone. But I really do feel like there probably is something diagnosable here. But even just looking at everything that's happening all at once, loss of job, divorce, loss of his family, his father dies, all while he's struggling with his sense of self and sexuality. You understand why someone would have a mental breakdown.
- [34:12]
Corinne Vien
Immense stress. Yeah. Or it could just trigger, like, an underlying mental illness.
- [34:17]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, illness. So in the spring of 1972, Marshall Applewhite had a mental breakdown, and he admitted himself into a Houston hospital. And this is only part of the story. So he, like, admits himself to the hospital for this anxiety, but he also is going there to be cured of his homosexuality. Because he thought he was sick. Yeah, because that was Something that had been like preached to him.
- [34:41]
Corinne Vien
That makes me so sad.
- [34:42]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So yeah, he was going to this hospital hoping to be cured, which we know this is something that does not get cured. It is not a illness at all. So it's here in this hospital in 1973 that the course of Marshall's life will be forever altered. All because of one woman. Like I said, Marshall really isn't the leader. A 44 year old nurse named Bonnie Lou Truesdale Nettles. Bonnie offers Marshall a psychic reading to his future. Already a little strange thing for a nurse to do for their patient. But she tells Marshall that he has been chosen by God for an important mission, which in one sense I totally get it. Like you have a patient who's in the worst place in their life and you're telling them the sentiment of like, you have a purpose, you're important, like you are needed here. But she takes it to a whole other level and tells Marshall that his purpose is to lead humanity to the kingdom of heaven. And she goes even further to tell Marshall that he has been chosen to start a new religion, which like, if
- [35:46]
Corinne Vien
she had told him that seven years ago, this wouldn't have ever happened. But it was like the perfect timing, I guess, but like also the worst timing and the most susceptible moments for him.
- [35:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
She gave Marshall a purpose, one that would ultimately lead to a horrific mass suicide. But in the moment, it is a purpose that Marshall needed to persevere and finally give like meaning to his pain. And with that, Bonnie became his spiritual master.
- [36:14]
Corinne Vien
Their relationship and dynamic is really something else and we will get into it in a second. But first let us talk about Bonnie because clearly she's got a lot to offer in this story too.
- [36:25]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
She's got a story.
- [36:26]
Corinne Vien
Bonnie Lou Nettles was born on August 27, 1927 in a small town in Texas. And similar to Marshall, she grew up raised in a very strict Christian household. I feel like that can be applied to a lot of people growing up in this time in Texas.
- [36:39]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [36:39]
Corinne Vien
But as a young adult, Bonnie was also active in Houston's Theosophical Society, which blended mysticism, astrology and a cult, which I'm like. Which sign me up.
- [36:50]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, right. Not to say that that's like in an indication that someone's gonna start a cult.
- [36:54]
Corinne Vien
No, I feel like that sounds really interesting.
- [36:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
You love the woo woo.
- [36:57]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. She was even a member of a spiritual group that claimed to be able to hear messages from space aliens and dead spirits. Honestly, sounds like half of our friend group. So like there is a lot that I can see us relating to here. But that's all to say that some people might classify her beliefs as unusual. With her background in both religion and occult, Bonnie was able to convince him that she could predict his future and see into his past.
- [37:26]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, and also keep in mind, like, his theater group, when they noted him acting weird, he starts talking about UFOs and all of this stuff. So when he meets Bonnie, who is talking about the same things, it's this perfect storm. Like, you're saying of, like, oh, my God, I was meant to find you.
- [37:41]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. And like, let's take his theater background. He's a yes. And kind of guy. It's been taught to him. So he definitely hears her out. She says she can predict his future and see into his past. And in fact, she convinced him that they had known each other in a past life.
- [37:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
This is also a little bit of, like, love bombing.
- [37:58]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. Right. And it's like, in this moment where he needs direction and he needs someone to almost, like, please and take the role that his dad once had 100%. Like, this is the perfect person to come into his life. Makes me sad.
- [38:14]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I know.
- [38:15]
Corinne Vien
I'm upset for him. Yeah. But he probably viewed it as very serendipitous. Like, we're meant to be together.
- [38:21]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [38:22]
Corinne Vien
By this point, Marshall viewed Bonnie as much more than a nurse and even more than his spiritual guide. He was pretty convinced that they were actually platonic soulmates. Platonic or not, the revelation was super concerning for Bonnie's family, specifically her husband, because, yes, she was married. Bonnie was married at the time. And her husband was like, nope, I'm not having all this. This is weird.
- [38:43]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [38:44]
Corinne Vien
So he actually quickly filed for divorce and won full custody of their four children. And while a lot of people could be very devastated by this, Bonnie was actually elated. Yeah. Because she saw this as God's way of freeing her from her family so she could focus on her true calling, working with Marshall to spread their message.
- [39:04]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So clearly there's a lot going on with Bonnie. And, like, I'm sure there's probably a lot more about her background that informs this. But again, it's like this perfect storm because. And we don't know, was Bonnie doing stuff like this to her other patients, or was it truly, like, the combination of these two people together that created the perfect storm, which totally can.
- [39:24]
Corinne Vien
There's so many, like, duos who kill together, you know, where, like, they just kind of.
- [39:29]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
They would never have done someone else, but.
- [39:31]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. Yeah. Also, her just being A nurse. It does make me wonder like if there was something either drug wise that she got into or if there was something like personality wise. You know, like when you're around certain people enough and you, you start to absorb and take on their personalities.
- [39:47]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Like yeah, I don't know if this
- [39:49]
Corinne Vien
is just truly coming from within her or if there's some sort of culmination of things.
- [39:53]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Probably some type of culmination, yeah. But yeah, from that point on, Bonnie and Marshall became inseparable. Because now Bonnie's whole family has left her. Marshall's ex wife and kids have been taken away from him. His father is the reason why all
- [40:08]
Corinne Vien
of their family and children have left them is because they're left to have this purpose.
- [40:12]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yep. It's just the two of them and that is the priority over everything. And up until this point, Marshall had been living a double life, always hiding his true self in order to be accepted by his family. And they rejected him when inklings of his true self came out. But now here's this woman, Bonnie, who accepts him for all that he is and validates everything that he's been through and everything that he believes, maybe despite it being a little bit out there. So it makes him believe that he doesn't need anything or anyone else. Marshall begins to distance himself from his old life. He cuts contacts with friends, colleagues. And after Bonnie had like proclaimed this like happiness and like meaning behind having to cut off contact with her family, she tells Marshall he has to do the same. So sometime after meeting Bonnie around, we don't know the specific date, but around 1973ish, Marshall Applewhite traveled to Dallas where his sister lived. And he knocked on her door and he told her something that she will never forget. He tells her that she will never see him again. And then he left.
- [41:21]
Corinne Vien
Oh my God. Like so concerning. This almost like brings me back to when we did the Crimes of Passion Season and it's all the red flags coming up in relationships and like, my God, there are so many red flags between Bonnie and Marshall here. And just like trying to picture what their family members were experiencing and how concerning it was.
- [41:41]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And we don't even know the full extent of it because they're both deceased.
- [41:45]
Corinne Vien
Yep. But we do know that before long, Marshall had cut ties with literally everyone in his life except for Bonnie. Then Bonnie quit her nursing job and the two of them donated all of their belongings, gave away all of their extra money and set off on a road trip to find their higher purpose. And it did not Take them long to find that higher purpose. While camping near Gold Beach, Oregon, they had an epiphany. They realized that they weren't just two wayward drifters. They were part of the Bible. Right there in Revelation 11 as some context.
- [42:21]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Revelation 11 talks about two prophets who are sent to Earth with a message. And they spend years preaching their message to the world before being rejected and then killed. But then they are resurrected and taken up into heaven on a cloud. So, like, already you see that messaging really, really mirrored in the heaven's gate messaging.
- [42:45]
Corinne Vien
Right. And so when I raise my hand and say, well, why do we have to leave our meat suits now? They can just reference this and be like, well, because it's behind here. And then you get risen up to your cloud. Ufo.
- [42:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yep.
- [42:56]
Corinne Vien
Maybe I would have been a member. I don't know. They have answers to some of the questions they do. So Bonnie and Marshall, they were sure that they were these two prophets, and they said that they had been sent to Earth to share this message and that everything in their lives had basically led to this moment. Yeah, it's from here on, really, that their belief system begins to evolve and they start to blend it with some other, like, less traditional ideas.
- [43:21]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
It might be misspeaking because we didn't write this down, but I'm pretty sure, like, Bonnie and Marshall believe that the way they knew each other in a past life was, like, in an alien form. So, like, they do believe that they're not from Earth, that they were sent to Earth, which, again, is, gosh, messaging in Revelation.
- [43:40]
Corinne Vien
It's so interesting, too, because it's like, I mean, you've said it before that, like, we're not professionals when it comes to psychology, but we do obviously, like, know patterns and things that other people have discovered that work in the field. And psychosis, there's so many examples of psychosis relating to aliens and UFO abductions and religion. And it's like here the two of them are together.
- [44:01]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes.
- [44:01]
Corinne Vien
Building on, like, both of that. Like, combining that, like a shared together delusion. Totally.
- [44:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [44:08]
Corinne Vien
Well, it kind of started in this more like religious sense. And specifically, they did believe in some of it in terms of, like, their roles and how it showed up in the Bible. And the cloud that's described in Revelation is not actually a cloud. It's not heaven. It's not this space in between. It's a spacecraft. It's a ufo. You go to a ufo. And for that matter, they said that the concept of God himself was also up for interpretation. They claimed he wasn't a deity, but actually an all powerful space alien.
- [44:39]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I buy into that a little bit.
- [44:42]
Corinne Vien
Yeah, like, I mean, like, who do?
- [44:44]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
What do we know?
- [44:44]
Corinne Vien
Who's to say? Yeah, what do we know?
- [44:47]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
What do we know?
- [44:48]
Corinne Vien
So they say that he was calling them, the two of them, to join him. And they started to proclaim that the UFO was waiting to take them to the next level. And this is what they started referring to as the demonstration. But entry to the next level would come at a steep cost. So to qualify, humans would have to shed all of their earthly attachments, which they kind of already did. Their friends, their family, all their relationships, their careers, their possessions, their money, romantic sexual relationships as well, things that they'd already done. So look, they're already leveling up.
- [45:21]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, and this is like early days of their forming their ideology. Keep in mind there is no messaging of having to shed your vehicle at this point. And right now it's just the two of them. Like, they're not spreading this to other people yet.
- [45:38]
Corinne Vien
Well, and it's like one of those things where it's like even when they do start to spread it, it's if the whole thing is relating back to revelations, unless they outwardly don't tell people that it's from revelations. I'd be like, oh, well, the two, them two are gonna die and go.
- [45:52]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
They actually call themselves the Two the two.
- [45:56]
Corinne Vien
Like, it's like we're just supporting these two totally.
- [46:02]
Vanessa Richardson
I love summer pieces that are comfortable, versatile and perfect for wearing on repeat, no matter the occasion. That's why I love Quince. They specialize in elevated essentials made from premium materials like European linen, organic cotton and wash silk without the usual retail markup. Their 100% European linen collection is amazing. The pants and dresses are lightweight, effortless to style and start at just $32. I always keep one of their soft organic cotton sweaters on hand for cooler evenings. And their 14 karat gold hoops make every outfit look polished. Their bags are fantastic too. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out middlemen, pricing everything 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They also have incredible essentials for your home, including gorgeous bedding and furniture make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to quince.com scams for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com scams for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com scams and despite what you might
- [47:15]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
be thinking of like, how outlandish some of this is. Bonnie and Marshall fully believed in their ideology. And then as they're, like, forming this and putting it together and feeling like they're having these massive epiphanies, they're like, we need to share it with other people and help bring them to the demonstration and to, like, to God.
- [47:36]
Corinne Vien
How many seats are on the spacecraft, though? I don't know.
- [47:40]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So they start small. They first start recruiting with, like, an old friend from Texas. Then they passed out pamphlets and churches and spiritual workshops under the name the two, as in the two witnesses in Revelation 11. And at first, no one really takes them seriously. Bonnie and Marshall come off as more delusional than anything else. And then things got a little bad in August of 1974 when Marshall led Texas state troopers on a high speed chase in a stolen rental car. Again, feels like a movie. And in court, Marshall claimed that a force from beyond Earth compelled him to keep the car. I'm sure you can understand that the judge did not buy this. Yeah, and he threw Marshall in jail for six months. But jail actually proved to be the perfect place for Marshall to, like, do some thinking and refine the message to better relay it to recruits. He spelled out their beliefs on a flyer and rebranded the movement as Human Individual Metamorphosis, or him for short, a reference to shedding their humanity like a caterpillar sheds its chrysalis. And In March of 1975, one of those flyers reached a group of spiritual seekers in Los Angeles. And now the recruiting starts to work. And almost immediately, everyone is very captivated by Marshall. He is described as completely magnetic. One convert claimed that he had an out of body experience. The second Marshall touched him, prospective members would fill out questionnaires which include a particularly pointed question. Can you follow instructions without adding your own interpretation? Which reminds me so much of. And I've never been asked by a Scientologist, but it reminds me because when we lived in la, I remember people being like, oh, I was at the Ralphs, which is, like, right across from the Scientology building. And there would be people waiting at the end of the line to, like, ask you random questions, but they were all kind of the same idea of like, are you gonna question my weird questions or not? Cause if you're not gonna question it, then I might bring you over to the church.
- [49:48]
Corinne Vien
Wait, which Ralph's? Why didn't I ever get recruited?
- [49:51]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Cause we didn't live near it.
- [49:52]
Corinne Vien
Oh. Oh, I thought you meant, like, nearby us.
- [49:54]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
No, not near us.
- [49:55]
Corinne Vien
I truly insulted them in my seven Years in la, no one ever tried.
- [50:00]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
No, I think it was the. It's the Ralphs by, like the Hollywood Hills. Hike.
- [50:04]
Corinne Vien
Oh, wait, I went to that ralph. I used to live right there.
- [50:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
You never got recruited?
- [50:09]
Corinne Vien
I would study a drive. What the hell?
- [50:12]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
They look.
- [50:13]
Corinne Vien
Can you.
- [50:14]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And despite your outfit being very culty right now, they knew that you were not impressionable.
- [50:18]
Corinne Vien
No, I was really good at doing Dead Eyes in LA because I didn't want people to talk to me in public.
- [50:22]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, it worked. But so in doing this, and like, with these questions, again, like, I don't think they were intentionally setting out to start a cult. They were kind of scanning for the most vulnerable and impressionable people, people who wouldn't ask questions, it wouldn't challenge their authority. And it worked because that single LA meeting grew their tiny little threesome, because it was just them and their friend from Texas now into 30 people.
- [50:49]
Corinne Vien
And the recruits came from all walks of life. There was a retired grandmother, a former model, a police Air Force pilot trainee, a wayward teenager, a television producer and a CPA all joined the group.
- [51:02]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So la, that's such an LA group, right?
- [51:04]
Corinne Vien
Of course they would find success as soon as they hit the LA demographic, I feel. Unfortunately, not to stereotype, but I feel like a lot of cults start forming in Los Angeles.
- [51:15]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Opportunity.
- [51:16]
Corinne Vien
Opportunity.
- [51:17]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Great.
- [51:17]
Corinne Vien
I finally found my theater troupe. So most came from normal backgrounds. One example was Joyce Scala, a journalism grad, a mother of 20 twins and a local TV personality. She gave up her entire life within 48 hours of meeting Bonnie and Marshall.
- [51:34]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Damn.
- [51:35]
Corinne Vien
What are they saying to these people? Like, that's what I want to know. Like, what is. How is the messaging so convincing that you were leaving your everything. Everything, your children? Like, that's what I can't understand too. And, like, there actually were a few single parents who even gave up custody of their children to the state to be able to join the two.
- [51:55]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So sad.
- [51:56]
Corinne Vien
Bonnie and Marshall were presenting something powerful. Belonging, purpose, a shared mission. And no one thought that they were joining a cult.
- [52:04]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I will say, like, as terrible as it is to give up custody of their children to the state, I'm glad they didn't bring their children. Like.
- [52:12]
Corinne Vien
Like the Jonestown massacre. That would happen a year later.
- [52:15]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Exactly.
- [52:15]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [52:16]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So again, I want to point out that Bonnie and Marshall weren't these massive, calculated monsters. They didn't think that they were creating a cult. They didn't set out to create a cult, which isn't the case for all cults. Like, we'll talk about nxivm eventually in this season. And like, or even cults like Jim Jones, like, they are more manipulative and financially driven.
- [52:38]
Corinne Vien
Whatever it is, there's creepiness to them and secrecy. And this was not that. This was just delusion.
- [52:46]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah. Bonnie and Marshall fully believed their messaging and were living according to their beliefs and the lifestyle they preach. And they truly believed they were saving lives.
- [52:56]
Corinne Vien
But the result was the same. Building a system of control that had real consequences. And now it's not just their lives that they're controlling. It's not just the two anymore. It's about 30.
- [53:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [53:09]
Corinne Vien
Their motley crew traveled up the west coast, basically going wherever Bonnie and Marshall told them to go, usually without much rhyme or reason. And it's around this time that Bonnie and Marshall came up with new nicknames for themselves. So they were no longer going to be the two. They were going to be called Bo and Peep. And they requested that people call them by their nicknames, Bo Peep. In their minds, this proved that they were shepherds gathering up lost sheep. Over the next few months, they managed to draw in more than 200 followers.
- [53:41]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [53:41]
Corinne Vien
And with their numbers growing, the group became even more nomadic, bouncing between campsites and surviving on donations and panhandling, which is like literally the start of so many cults on the west coast. Like, this is like the same. Throw them in some red robes and we've got like three of those.
- [53:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [53:58]
Corinne Vien
So as members became more and more indoctrinated, they were expected to surrender their human possessions. They were told to devote themselves fully to overcoming their humanity. That meant no music, which I'm shocked by Marshall here.
- [54:13]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right.
- [54:14]
Corinne Vien
No music, no drugs, no sex, no reading. Reading was banned as well.
- [54:20]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And naturally similar to a lot of the other cults we'll talk about this season, it didn't take long for families to notice that their adult children were disappearing. After attending Bonnie and Marshall's lectures, national outlets did start to cover the strange wave of 20 somethings vanishing from the same California towns. And reporters would question, like, how we are. How did seemingly stable, affluent people just abandon their lives so quickly?
- [54:46]
Corinne Vien
It's a good question. And that question apparently didn't bother Bonnie and Marshall one bit because they had other things to deal with. With the increase in numbers came an increase in disagreements and internal conflict. Some of their early members started to get tired of all the rules. And to deal with those who questioned them, Bonnie and Marshall decided to literally ditch them. They would be stranded alone in Sedona, Arizona, completely cut off. This was a powerful message. For the remaining followers, which was basically like, stay in line or you will be kicked to the curb. You will be left in the desert,
- [55:21]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
and you won't be able to, like, graduate.
- [55:24]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [55:24]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
To the next level.
- [55:25]
Corinne Vien
Forget the ufo. You're out of here.
- [55:27]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [55:28]
Corinne Vien
But Bonnie and Marshall were a little bit in over their heads still. The group grew quicker, and they really couldn't keep up with it. And then winter set in, and the reality of cold campsites and constantly begging for literally anything and everything, it sort of lost its charm. And even the most loyal followers started to kind of wonder if this was exactly right. By the end of 1975, just eight months after the cult started, More than half of its members had left. But Marshall and Bonnie didn't mind. To them, this was just a part of the process and allowed them to whittle their flock down to the most devoted.
- [56:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So this is another aspect of heaven's gate that I found really interesting and is pretty unusual when it comes to cults and is pretty different because, like, most cults have very set ideology and don't adapt, which, in a way, heaven's gate did have, like, a set ideology or, like, belief that they were going to graduate to this higher level and that God was calling to them. But they were extremely adaptable. Like, bonnie and Marshall could change tactics to better serve them. Like, in 1976, Bonnie, Marshall, and their remaining 100 followers regrouped and overhauled everything. First, they declared that the harvest, which was like their recruiting term, was done. They would no longer be actively recruiting. They then renamed themselves again. Bonnie became t, and Marshall became doe. Like the musical notes. But so it's interesting because t was Bonnie's nickname and doe was Marshall's nickname. T always came before doe. Bo came before peep, as if insinuating, like, bonnie was the one in charge, which is interesting. Like, even though Marshall nowadays is deemed a leader, which we'll get to why
- [57:15]
Corinne Vien
it's also interesting, too. Just like them saying that they were done recruiting, I feel like almost works in their favor to instill more fear in the members that they currently have. Because it's like, you don't get to come back in. If you leave, that's it.
- [57:27]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
You're out.
- [57:28]
Corinne Vien
Like, this is the group.
- [57:29]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah. And they can say, like, this is God's call. Like, this is what God is saying.
- [57:33]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [57:34]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Next came what they called the classroom phase, and they traded in old campsites for a nice suburban house, where they launched into a strict training program to prepare their students for graduation. To cover expenses, some members were allowed to work service jobs or fix up computers for cash. But there were strict rules with that. They were told to keep their co workers at arm's length and claim that they were part of a monastery if anyone asked too many questions.
- [58:02]
Corinne Vien
Interesting. They sure didn't look a part of a monastery. No, the rules were maybe the most important part of being a member of Heaven's Gate. And the rules went far beyond their jobs. There were rules about how to butter your bread, rules about how to use the restroom, rules about how you could sleep, which by the way was on your back to avoid impure thoughts that might come from sleeping on your stomach,
- [58:30]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
which so many of these things, like I feel like are Marshall's internal battles too. Yeah, like did he relate sleeping on his stomach with like an impure dream or something?
- [58:39]
Corinne Vien
Or not to be crude, but like he had a relationship with a man. Perhaps he was spending time on his stomach in his relationship and that's why this is not something that he wants to.
- [58:51]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right.
- [58:52]
Corinne Vien
He's trying to reject. Members were also forced to wear identical gender neutral clothing. Jewelry and facial hair were banned and everyone had the exact same buzz cut. On top of giving up their wardrobes, they also had to give up their names. So instead they were given strange new names which were basically like a mix of six capital letters, three random consonants, followed by Odie. So for example, the two men featured in the Earth exit statements that were later found by police went by QST Odie, like custody and SRR Odie. Like Sir Odie. Interesting.
- [59:33]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah. But it also like makes me think of. Because computers become really like a big part of Heaven's Gate. Like it does kind of feel like a coding. Yeah, like a coding name.
- [59:43]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. 110001100. Yeah. Then there were also daily schedules which were mapped out down to the second one former member shared their schedule, which included a rest period from 3:36pm to 5:36pm using the bath chamber precisely at 5:57 and taking 32 vitamins at 6:21.
- [60:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
This is like my alarms on my phone when you like scroll through. Because they're just so random.
- [60:12]
Corinne Vien
You just need like 17 of them for different things. It also is so interesting because it's like they were really adaptable and now it's a sharp turn to like.
- [60:21]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
But it's like they adapted to something really strict. Yeah, yeah.
- [60:25]
Corinne Vien
And it's as a group because like you were saying, like a lot of other cults are very strict from the get go. And I feel like any sort of like adaptable language and behavior is oftentimes associated with like one on one relationships between the cult leaders and an individual that they're trying to abuse. Yes, but this is just like a blanket thing for everyone involved. Yeah. At every step in the schedule, members were paired with a partner, and they were told to watch each other for any time lapses in behavior. Another strict requirement was called central. Members had to check into a Central location every 11 minutes and ask how they could better serve the next level.
- [61:05]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Every 11 minutes.
- [61:06]
Corinne Vien
Oh, my God. God, I didn't know the crap out of myself. To keep everyone in line, Marshall and Bonnie introduced group criticism sessions where even something as harmless as doodling or hugging would earn a punishment.
- [61:19]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So now you're seeing like, this phase is where it starts to turn really dangerous. Like, yes, it was. There were red flags galore before, but it's. It's getting dangerous.
- [61:27]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. It is interesting too, because I feel like some of the cults that came before were a little bit more like lovey commune vibes. And this is structure. Very structure, very sterile.
- [61:41]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
But you can see how like, slowly you're pushing the boundaries of these people. You're stripping away their names, their identity. Then you're seeing how far, even if it's not calculated, you're seeing how far you can push them and how far they're willing to go for you.
- [61:59]
Corinne Vien
I do wonder. I mean, I know that we keep saying Bonnie seems like she's the one in charge, but I keep thinking about Marshall's time in the military and his time in jail and how some of these things, I feel like could align with different tactics that are used to kind of like break a person.
- [62:14]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I do think we know more about Marshall too, because he is seen as the leader. Like, I do feel like there's a lot of like, question marks about Bonnie that we don't know the answers to.
- [62:24]
Corinne Vien
True. So basically, in other words, this is all to say that Marshall and Bonnie had complete control over every aspect of their followers lives. And basically the point of this was simple. It was just to keep members so busy and so controlled that they had no space to dwell on the past or question the future. So it's like, don't think about where you are. Just stay and be.
- [62:47]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I just feel like having recently gone through a breakup, like having structure or being really busy actually helps so much to like kind of move past it and not dwell on it and think about it. So I can see how someone, not me, but someone who's like in a vulnerable state in their life who does need that structure actually sees this as like, a really helpful. Right thing.
- [63:09]
Corinne Vien
Right. Whether they're running from something and running from facing something, or it's literally as, like, a therapeutic tool to just let yourself get far enough away from something that it doesn't.
- [63:20]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [63:21]
Corinne Vien
Affect them as much anymore.
- [63:22]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [63:23]
Corinne Vien
So, yeah. Their followers basically became completely dependent on their cult leaders, Marshall and Bonnie, and their approval. And this was all by design. And this way, if someone stepped out of line, Marshall and Bonnie didn't even need to physically punish them. All they had to do was leave the compound for a few days. And when they returned, members would reportedly cry with relief and just be so distraught from having been away from them. And to them, approval from Bonnie and Marshall, T. And do it was just, like, as important as oxygen. Like, this was their lifeline. This was everything to them. Such a toxic, toxic relationship. But the intensity was. There were some people that were like, this is a little too much. Right.
- [64:06]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yep.
- [64:07]
Corinne Vien
And again, this is what Bonnie and Marshall expected. They're all about weeding people out. And sometimes they even helped members who wanted to leave. When Dick Joslyn, the Air Force trainee who joined the group when he was just 18 years old, finally decided that he had enough after 15 years with the group.
- [64:23]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
15 years.
- [64:24]
Corinne Vien
They actually paid for his trip back to Florida.
- [64:26]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Wow.
- [64:28]
Corinne Vien
It's one of those things where it's like, in the beginning, I feel like it was a lot of delusion, but, like, is it still delusion? Because this feels manipulative. This is like, oh, we still love everyone and support everyone. If this isn't for you, then we'll help you leave. You're not trapped here.
- [64:41]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
But it's also better for them to make those people leave because you don't want other people to start questioning it with that person.
- [64:47]
Corinne Vien
Right, Right. And I feel like if you're in it, like, it is an abusive relationship where you're like, I don't know if this is good or bad. Like, some of this stuff that's happening.
- [64:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [64:57]
Corinne Vien
In the early 80s, they singled out 19 followers to be separated and sent to Arizona. Bonnie and Marshall checked in occasionally before eventually ghosting this group altogether.
- [65:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So this is very calculated. Right. They see these 19 people as, like, either the weakest links or eventually going to be troublesome. So, like, hey, you have a mission here in Arizona. And then they just were like, they just ditch them. Yeah.
- [65:20]
Corinne Vien
So, yeah, this group is literally abandoned, which must have been so confusing and devastating for them. But Marshall and Bonnie had no pity for them. Their focus was on the remaining followers. And that remaining number was 48 at this time.
- [65:33]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So they've like really fluctuated. They've gone up and down a lot. By 1982, the rules actually started to loosen a little. So that's also unlike most cults. Like, usually like, you get stricter and stricter as you go, but then all of a sudden they're loosening the rules. Some trusted members were even allowed to call home. And by 1985, some could even visit family members for a day or two.
- [65:53]
Corinne Vien
But this in a way does. Because you're saying some. It's like singling people out and they get special permission. And that is something that was very similar to Colts.
- [66:03]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah. They told all the members who were given these special permissions, treatments to tell their families that they had joined a monastery to study computers. Because that's what you do at a
- [66:15]
Corinne Vien
monastery, don't you know?
- [66:17]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
It's a very odd.
- [66:19]
Corinne Vien
Didn't the nuns teach you how to type?
- [66:20]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah. All the members seemed calm, happy, and so most people didn't push back when they returned to this classroom, the monastery, to study computers.
- [66:30]
Corinne Vien
How does that make any sense too, where it's like, hey, you haven't received any communication from me, despite me literally working with technology that would allow me to communicate with you every day. Yeah, it is very sad.
- [66:45]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I mean, that's a whole other thing is like being a family member of someone in a cult, like, is probably so difficult. And we'll talk about some of that more in other episodes this season.
- [66:54]
Corinne Vien
The cult stuff. And then it's like, yeah, I. I liken it to. I mean, because I don't know anyone who's been a part of a cult, But I know plenty of people who've had really bad mental illness and drug addiction. I have a family member who disappeared off like, yeah, the face of the planet. And people looked for him for over a decade. So like, I see. I see bits of what that is.
- [67:14]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Like, yeah, yeah. Okay.
- [67:17]
Corinne Vien
So.
- [67:18]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, then in 1983 came another massive, if not like the biggest turning point in the history of Heaven's Gate. Bonnie was diagnosed with end stage liver cancer and even had to have one of her eyes surgically removed because the cancer had spread to it. And then came the moment that shook everything. Ready to level up? Champa Casino is your playbook to fun. It's free to play with no purchase necessary. Enjoy hundreds of online social games like blackjack, slots and solitaire anytime, anywhere. With fresh releases every week. Whether you are at home or on the go. Let shumba Casino bring the excitement to you. Plus get free daily login bonuses and a free welcome bonus. Join now for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.
- [68:03]
Corinne Vien
Play Chumba Casino today.
- [68:04]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
No purchase necessary. VGW Group void board prohibited by law 21 TNCs apply. Just got a new puppy or kitten.
- [68:11]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Congrats.
- [68:12]
Corinne Vien
But also yikes. Between crates, beds, toys, treats, and those
- [68:16]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
first few vet visits, you've probably already
- [68:19]
Corinne Vien
dropped a small fortune. Which is where Lemonade Pet insurance comes in. It helps cover vet costs so you can focus on what's best for your new pet. The coverage is customizable, sign up is quick and easy, and your claims are handled in as little as three seconds. Lemonade offers a package specifically for puppies and kittens. Get a'llemonade.com pet your future self will thank you. Your pet won't. They don't know what insurance is.
- [68:45]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
On June 19, 1985, Bonnie, the group's co founder, spiritual anchor, and kind of the overarching authority, died. And Marshall was left to lead the flock on his own. And it devastated him.
- [69:00]
Corinne Vien
And what happened last time someone who was so important in crafting who he was died?
- [69:06]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, Bonnie's death destroyed Marshall. As you can imagine, Bonnie was his everything for like 20 plus years at this point. Sure, he had this group that they had cultivated together, but Bonnie was his soulmate and he had given up all of his earthly possessions for her. And up until this point, Bonnie and Marshall preached that entry into the next level required your living body. So this now messes with their ideology. There was no resurrection, no demonstration, no UFO that came to grab Bonnie's body. So Marshall, which probably this was like a mix of delusion and also probably having to keep the group together, he adapted the ideology and tells the group that Bonnie had been forced out of her body because her vehicle couldn't contain her spiritual energy anymore. He said that she had actually reached the height of enlightenment and the alien overlords brought her home to the next level early. So this is when he starts to preach that you don't need your body to reach the next level. And because Bonnie didn't need it, neither do they. And now Marshall starts speaking about the human body as a vehicle, a temporary shell or a container that they could get rid of whenever they wanted to. But even Marshall wasn't sure he believed this because prior to Bonnie's death, he believed everything that they had preached. But now he starts spiraling. And Bonnie's death had sent him to such a depression that at one point he truly stands before this group and confesses that he doesn't actually believe himself and he's deceiving all of them and himself and offers a thousand dollars to anyone who wants to leave.
- [70:50]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. That you would think would maybe be the end.
- [70:55]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
You would think.
- [70:56]
Corinne Vien
But guess what? Instead of people taking the money and leaving, this speech basically had the opposite effect in almost every single member state. Yeah.
- [71:05]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
That just shows how, like, devoted they were to him.
- [71:11]
Corinne Vien
Right. And also I can see from the perspective of being like, oh my gosh, like, this is him admitting that he isn't making everything up. And, like, this is out of his control. And now he's starting to be nervous and we all need to stay on the path together. He's one of us. It's not him and us.
- [71:27]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right.
- [71:27]
Corinne Vien
Like, you can. You can go that direction too. So, yeah, I think that's a little bit of what happened. He was so sincere and combined with the fatherly affection that he'd started to show everyone and how deeply loyal they were, a lot of people stayed in this sort of, like, sealed this new bond that they had with Marshall.
- [71:46]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
They literally sealed the. A new bond.
- [71:48]
Corinne Vien
They symbolically married him.
- [71:53]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
All of them.
- [71:54]
Corinne Vien
Yep. They all had a gold wedding band. And in return, they wrote commitment letters pledging their devotion to him for eternity. This reminds me. So, like, they said the monastery, and it's now I kind of am thinking it is similar, esque, like he. They're stealing some stuff from the monastery.
- [72:12]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, they're.
- [72:13]
Corinne Vien
The nuns are like, married to God.
- [72:15]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, yeah.
- [72:16]
Corinne Vien
And now everyone's married to Marshall.
- [72:18]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yep.
- [72:19]
Corinne Vien
Oddly enough, despite this increasingly intimate bond, life inside the classroom loosened in a lot of ways. So students were allowed to attend UFO conferences, experiment with new diets, they could watch movies. They basically had some, like, small freedoms that allowed them access to the outside world, which they hadn't before. Right. Even though it was still somewhat controlled, but not to the extent where it's like, okay, well, it's 2:37, so you can pee only right now or you miss your opportunity for three hours.
- [72:49]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right.
- [72:50]
Corinne Vien
In 1987, Marshall decided that it was time to start recruiting again. And this is what they started to call the Harvest, which is such an
- [72:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
icky word for it.
- [72:58]
Corinne Vien
I hate that.
- [72:59]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
To get his word out to potential new members, he mailed out a pamphlet called the UFO 2 and their crew to bookstores across the country in 1991. And again in 1992, he followed up with a video series with the same goal, but. But they didn't really get the reaction that he wanted. So Marshall went even bigger. He paid a staggering $30,000 for an ad spot in USA Today.
- [73:23]
Corinne Vien
It's so wild. I keep being like, how are they getting the money?
- [73:26]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
That's another question. Yeah, probably the members have to get rid of all their financial and they give it to Marshall.
- [73:35]
Corinne Vien
Right.
- [73:36]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So again, they're adapting. When in person outreach failed, they pivoted to the Internet and in fact they run one of the first, first religious group to use the power of the Internet as a tool for recruitment and propaganda. They launched their own website which was pretty sophisticated for the early 90s, especially given how isolated they were.
- [73:55]
Corinne Vien
It's all that work with the computers at the monastery.
- [73:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, thank goodness they went to the monastery. They had a very tech forward approach which actually fit in with their very sci fi ideology. The site itself was filled with hidden messages. Like if you scrolled over something, it would give you like secret messages that gave you more insight into the group's belief system.
- [74:18]
Corinne Vien
Which literally feels like today when people are trying to find creative ways to promote movies. And it's like solve this code and this secret video is popping up on this website and all these like hidden things and it's just to show you the new trailer to some horror movie.
- [74:32]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes, I saw this video this morning. This guy has been drawing on his iPad, but he likes started with a small drawing. He said he's been doing it for like five years now.
- [74:42]
Corinne Vien
Oh, where you can like pinch in
- [74:43]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
and it is like he has built a multiverse.
- [74:47]
Corinne Vien
That's so cool.
- [74:48]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
It's so wild.
- [74:49]
Corinne Vien
Also like I pray to God that never gets deleted. I'd be so panicked all the time.
- [74:54]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Same as so many different files. Despite adapting and changing their methods, they didn't really have much success in recruiting. And actually by the end of 1993, the class was just just 26 members.
- [75:05]
Corinne Vien
Still a lot of people. In 1994, Marshall made one last recruitment push. His idea was a huge cross country tour where they would stop in 63 cities and tell as many people as they could about their beliefs.
- [75:19]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
They went on tour.
- [75:20]
Corinne Vien
I like how he's calling it tour instead of like a mission trip or something like that. Like that's basically what it is.
- [75:27]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [75:27]
Corinne Vien
They managed to pick up just over a dozen new members, bringing their total to 40 members now. But it wasn't a big recruitment that Marshall thought that they would have. Right. So 40 is.
- [75:40]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, they only paid 26. They went to 63 cities and only got 12 like that. That ratio is not great.
- [75:48]
Corinne Vien
No, it's not. Maybe they should have targeted the specific cities.
- [75:52]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Go back to la. Go back.
- [75:54]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. Hey, I have an idea for you. La.
- [75:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Not that we're trying to give them ideas. Florida, you are the cult leader.
- [76:01]
Corinne Vien
Portland, Oregon. That's where I would go. Yeah. So he was like, oh, this isn't exactly what I imagined. And in some ways it did remind him kind of of like the very first attempt that he and Bonnie, when they were just the two, had decades before. But this time he was like, okay, well this isn't a failure. This is a prophecy. To Marshall, the lack of new members meant the end was near.
- [76:25]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And with the end nearing, Marshall had to ensure the group was ready for the next level. And this is somewhat disturbing. So although if you've listened to the crime scene, you can make it through this. I'm sure there was one thing getting in the way of them being ready for the next level. Sexual arousal. And this had always been considered one of the worst sins in the group, which psychologically can go. I mean, again, not professionals, but I feel like we can directly relate that to Marshall's internal battle from like childhood. But he insisted that the men in the group undergo castration. Two of the men actually flipped a coin to determine who would go first. And the first few procedures were performed right there in the house without anesthesia. One man was permanently injured. So then the next few surgeries were carried out in back alley non medical facilities. Eventually, eight men, including Marshall himself, were surgically castrated and the rest were chemically castrated.
- [77:22]
Corinne Vien
Did they not consider chemical castration first?
- [77:25]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Not until eight of them had been surgically castrated. I know.
- [77:29]
Corinne Vien
In 1995, Marshall bought up 40 acres in the mountains outside of Albuquerque and started building two large earthship homes out of stacked tires. Have you seen Earthship House?
- [77:41]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
No.
- [77:42]
Corinne Vien
They're sick.
- [77:43]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Really?
- [77:44]
Corinne Vien
Yes. They've been on some of those, like Travel Channel, hgtv. They're usually in like New Mexico and Arizona.
- [77:51]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Okay, these are cool. But he's trying to make it out of rubber tires.
- [77:53]
Corinne Vien
He's trying to make it out of rubber tires here. They're like kind of self sustaining. There's like solariums and they're, they're actually like, like when you learn about how they operate, they're like super interesting.
- [78:04]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
These are very cool.
- [78:05]
Corinne Vien
His tire houses probably are a little different.
- [78:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [78:08]
Corinne Vien
Than what I'm thinking. So anyway, yeah, he's making these two large earthship homes out of stack tires. And the goal was to build a structure that was big enough for the whole group to fit in, but inconspicuous enough to remain completely off the grid. So his plans were ambitious. It was going to be five bedrooms, plus a bathroom area all made out of recycled tires. So just a mountain of tires. But as construction got underway, his health started to go downhill. And gradually he started handing more and more of his responsibilities off to his followers. And for a while, he even floated the idea of leaving the US Entirely. But after some discussion, the group backed out. And in their view, no place on earth truly could even suit them. And the beings as spiritually as advanced
- [78:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
as they were, was that a manipulative effort too? To be like, maybe we move out of the US to make everyone be like, no, nothing will be better than us graduating.
- [79:07]
Corinne Vien
Right?
- [79:08]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah, like, it doesn't matter where we go. Our ultimate place of, like, purpose to go is not here on Earth.
- [79:13]
Corinne Vien
Out of our bodies. Yeah, gotta get to the next level. It does feel like a computer game in a way.
- [79:19]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I know. So then it's at this point that they start using the name Heaven's Gate. The name symbolized the threshold that they believe they were standing on the doorway between Earth and the next level. And for the next couple of years, this group becomes so focused on how to graduate. Slowly but surely, the conversation turned to suicide, which for most people sounds like a very disturbing and shocking, unimaginable possibility. But for this group, who had already surrendered their names, surrendered their schedules, their sexualities, and even their bodies to Marshall's authority, this didn't feel out of the question. And after Waco, Texas, siege that had happened in 1993, they did consider provoking a fatal shootout with police by pulling realistic looking water pistols. But then they ultimately decided against it, not because it was too violent, but because it didn't ensure that they all died.
- [80:17]
Corinne Vien
And this is also like, with Marshall giving some responsibilities to others, this feels
- [80:23]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
like It's a group 100% decision.
- [80:26]
Corinne Vien
Like it's not him telling everyone what to do and to drink the kool aid. It's all of them being like, how can we ascend together? Brainstorming sessions.
- [80:35]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [80:36]
Corinne Vien
For years, by early 1996, talk of suicide became almost constant within this group. Seventeen students posted statements about their beliefs on the class website under the title last chance to evacuate Earth before it's recycled. In those messages, they openly acknowledged that the class was planning a group death, but never used the word suicide. Instead, they called it a willful exit of the body. To them, the real suicide was choosing to remain on earth. One member wrote, everything of this world has been offered to us and I can honestly say thanks, but no thanks. Marshall's video had a similar message saying, we do, in all honesty, hate this world. Which is so interesting because it's like in their exit tapes, they're like, I've never been happier. This is amazing. And if you didn't understand the context of, like, what came before, you would think that they were just like, happy in life, but they're happy in that moment thinking that they get to exit the world that they hate so much.
- [81:42]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [81:42]
Corinne Vien
So you would think that someone would see this posting and many postings and be concerned. Right. Because they're posting it online for anyone to find. But the thing was, basically no one was listening.
- [81:53]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Well, because it's the early 90s, this is not like, like today where everyone is scrolling and you see a message like that and it's concerning.
- [82:01]
Corinne Vien
Right. There's no algorithm to direct you to something that you might find more interesting. Right. But like, people weren't seeing it.
- [82:07]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [82:07]
Corinne Vien
And so the group continued to just plot their willful exit of the body.
- [82:12]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
In November of 1996, the group sold all of their belongings in an estate sale. And they used the money to buy a huge three story, seven bedroom mansion perched on the hills of Rancho Santa Fe, California. And if you look up pictures, this house is massive. I think there's like even a tennis court in the backyard.
- [82:29]
Corinne Vien
Dang from a Tire City to that.
- [82:32]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I know.
- [82:32]
Corinne Vien
Are you sure you don't want to stay? That seems pretty nice.
- [82:34]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And then in 1997, an astronomical event actually determined their final days on Earth. The Hale Bopp Comet, which, again, as context, this was set to pass near Earth in March of 1997. And when Marshall heard of this, he believed it was their time because they, beyond Heaven's Gate, regular people were like, spreading rumors that there was a UFO traveling behind the Hale Bopp Comet. And when Heaven's Gate and Marshall got word of this, they were like, that's the UFO for us. It's coming for us. So they didn't even start that rumor, you know, again, like a perfect storm. And Marshall believed that Bonnie was coming back to Earth. Oh, to collect them hurts your heart.
- [83:18]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [83:19]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So Marshall was convinced that all they had to do to join Bonnie was die. So the group prepared for their graduation. They went to amusement parks, traveled to Las Vegas. They gambled away what was left of their savings. And In January of 1997, one of the group's members, Rio D', Angelo, if you'll remember him from the beginning of this episode, was tasked with designing those patches they all wore on their uniforms the day that they passed away. He had spent, I think, somewhere between, like, 14 to 15 years with the group. He had stayed through early recruitment, through Bonnie's death, through many phases of evolution, even castration, and had become one of the longest standing members and someone Marshall deeply trusted. I think there's different reportings. Some say that Rio woke up and, like, had a bad feeling. Others say that, like, he was still very ingrained in the group. And Marshall approached him and was like, you have a purpose and you need to stay here on Earth. So instead of dying with the rest of the group, Marshall was like, you have to stay behind so that you can spread the message to others. Either way, whether Rio left or not, he was given a computer, a camera, and $1,000 and money for a train ticket back to LA. And that moment actually saved his life.
- [84:40]
Corinne Vien
Rio and a couple of others left to continue spreading their mission, leaving 39 members of Heaven's Gate in Rancho Santa Fe. And then In March of 1977, Marshall told his remaining followers that the time had finally come. Marshall sent a package with Earth Exit tapes to Rio's address to arrive after they had all graduated. Marshall wanted their bodies to be found and wanted Rio to be the one to inform the world. And shortly after Marshall had sent the package, the suicides began. Over the course of three days, the group carried out the plan with the same eerie precision that had defined Marshall and Bonnie's leadership for decades. By the time Rio received the messages, he knew that the group was already gone. And he doesn't call the police right away. He goes to the house to see it for himself. And then he makes the call. Which is what led to everything we know now. The investigation, the headlines, the shock around the world. 39 people gone, a mass suicide.
- [85:40]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And the world tried to make sense of it, but it did become the story about a bizarre UFO cult. Like something to dismiss or fear mind control cults.
- [85:50]
Corinne Vien
But the reality is so much more complicated than that. And people do debate on this, but in. In many ways, they were all victims.
- [85:58]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yeah.
- [85:59]
Corinne Vien
Bonnie victimized Marshall by preying on his delusions when he was at one of his lowest points in his life and had literally been a patient in a psychiatric hospital.
- [86:09]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Right?
- [86:10]
Corinne Vien
And then Marshall, in turn, victimized his followers first, carefully selecting only the most impressionable people, forcing them into this very strict, rigid schedule, and then constantly preying on their fear of abandonment, taking away every aspect of their individual being. Their clothing, their name, their relationships, even parts of their own body.
- [86:31]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And I feel like, this is the reason that Marshall is seen as the leader is because Bonnie did die. And once she died, that is when the ideology and this, like, idea of having to die in order to graduate came to be. Yeah. And Marshall did lead them to what is ultimately this horrific mass suicide.
- [86:53]
Corinne Vien
It is interesting because, like, going back again to what I had said before, where it's like he had that declaration of, like, I don't know what we're doing here. Is this even what we're supposed to be doing? Like, I feel like that was the moment that it became so much more intense because it became like a group project.
- [87:10]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Like, he was ready to give up and walk away, but then they ended up bringing him back in.
- [87:16]
Corinne Vien
Right. Like, it's not he and Bonnie feeding on each other. It's now 30 plus people being, like, spiraling.
- [87:22]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
It's so sad.
- [87:23]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. So by the end, these people were left with no identity outside of the group, no real path forward, except for the one that Marsha laid out. And that is exactly how cults thrive. They rely on manipulation, isolation, fear, and control. And they tap into the human need for belonging, then slowly replace personal identity with group identity, which certainly we can see very blatantly here. And once that process takes hold, it can feel impossible to question the leader, let alone actually ever leave.
- [87:55]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
I'm trying to look at what was the specific date that he and Bonnie met? What, like 1972? This was happening for 30 years. This didn't happen overnight. It really, really did take a long time. Bonnie and Marshall believed what they were saying. That doesn't cancel out control, though. And also, being a victim doesn't cancel out being coercive and controlling either. Yeah, they can be both. They can be victims and the manipulative masterminds. The uncomfortable truth is that people who died in that house weren't crazy at all. They were just regular people searching for purpose, for community, and for some kind of meaning in a world where they really felt out of place. Like, you're saying these messages where they're saying they hate Earth, like they were struggling with life and they thought that this was something bigger and better for them. Unfortunately, what they found was an eccentric couple who promised cosmic salvation on a ufo. But the fact that the group's beliefs were bizarre doesn't make their deaths any less tragic. In fact, it does make it, like, a lot more unsettling. It happened slowly, quietly, one belief at a time, until one day, none of it felt extreme.
- [89:04]
Corinne Vien
And tragically, the fallout wasn't over yet. One of the suicide Victims. Suzanne Cook was married to a man named Wayne Cook, who was once a devout follower himself. After Suzanne's death, he fell into a deep depression, and on May 7, he took his own life.
- [89:22]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
So sad.
- [89:22]
Corinne Vien
In an attempt to feel close to his wife, he mimicked her suicide conditions exactly down to the Nike decades and the pocket change.
- [89:30]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Oh, so sad. Because it's like he wanted to be with her.
- [89:33]
Corinne Vien
Yeah. And then there's the story of Charles Humphrey. Charles had been one of Heaven's Gate's computer specialists for two decades. It has never quite been stated why he drifted away from the cult, but he always remained dedicated to Marshall, even from the outside. So dedicated that in 1998, he too followed the same Heaven's Gate protocol and died by suicide.
- [89:57]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
The most shocking thing to me is that Heaven's Gate still exists today. Even though the 39 members died in 1997. Former members continued to run the official website, which is still operational today. You can visit it, but it does. It feels very outdated. It's like a very old. It looks like it hasn't changed since the 90s. It has, like, a pixelated backdrop of twinkling stars. And then you can find a link to buy the physical copy of the group's book. A handful of former members have also remained active online, sharing their experiences and keeping the conversation about Heaven's Heaven's Gate alive. Although it doesn't exist in the way that it did. Like, they're not traveling together and living the way that they had with Marshall and Bonnie through their stories. That is how we've learned a lot about the inner workings of Heaven's Gate. But again, like, we really don't know. Especially the last few years, we don't know the details except for what has been provided on the website.
- [90:53]
Corinne Vien
God, I can't imagine being a part of it today with everything that happens on social media. And just like, you know, we love a conspiracy, we love a rabbit hole.
- [91:01]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes.
- [91:02]
Corinne Vien
Like, the meteor showers are actually missiles are actually alien spacecraft. So, like, if you're confused about what's going on in the world, like, I feel like you can so easily just be mind melted, manipulated and think that now is the time 100%. It's scary.
- [91:18]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Yes. One member who still is alive is Rio, who we've talked about multiple times in this episode. So he split ways with Heaven's Gate. Whether it was like his own reasoning or because Marshall said he had another message or he had another purpose and to, like, spread the word, he called the police. He later did change his name to Richard and the design skills he picked up while working on the group's website actually helped him find work as a freelance designer. Over time, he rebuilt the relationships he had been forced to abandon when he joined the cult. And as of today, he has reconnected with his mother and focused on spending time with his granddaughter.
- [91:57]
Corinne Vien
And before we wrap up, we want to share a few resources. If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal thoughts, help is available. In the United States, the 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline provides free confidential support 24 hours a day. You can call or text 988 to reach a trained counselor. There are also resources available for people trying to leave high control groups or cults. And if you know someone who is a part of a group that pressures members to cut off loved ones or shows other warning signs that we discussed today, visit cultrecovery101.com for more information and resources.
- [92:43]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
That's the story of Heaven's Gate.
- [92:46]
Corinne Vien
Yeah, it is a heavy one and a confusing one.
- [92:49]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Very, very. But you see how over time people would could start to believe all the things.
- [92:55]
Corinne Vien
Yeah.
- [92:56]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
And get to the point that they did. We have a lot more episodes about cults coming out, but thank you so much for listening. We are your hosts Sabrina Deanna Roga and Corinne Vien. Join us next Tuesday for another peek inside another crimes of Cults.
- [93:09]
Corinne Vien
And if there are any cases that you would like us to cover, let us know in the comments here at Crime House. We want to thank each and every one of you for your support and if you like what you heard today, reach out on all social media media at Crime House.
- [93:20]
Sabrina Deanna Roga
Don't forget to rate, review and follow crimes of wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. We love you. The jury and court is adjourned.