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- [00:01]
A
You're listening to ASBO International's School Business Insider. I'm your host, John Brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello everyone, and welcome back to School Business Insider. Negotiating a salary isn't just about numbers. It's about the perception, bias and the systemic challenges that shape the conversation. Research has consistently shown that gender plays a role in how salaries are negotiated and awarded, even in professions where qualifications and job responsibilities are equal. But why does this gap persist? And what can be done to address it? To explore this issue, I'm joined by Dr. Ron Clamser, Jr. Assistant Superintendent for Business at Putnam Northern Westchester BOCES. In his dissertation, Gendered A Qualitative Study of Women's Experiences Navigating the Culture of Gender Bias and Stereotypes in the Profession of School Business, he examines how gender bias and stereotypes impact negotiations, particularly for women in the school business profession. Dr. Clamser will walk us through the findings of his research, the real world implications for school business officials, and what has changed since he first conducted the study. Ron, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you.
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B
Thanks John. Happy to be here.
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A
So you've been on School of Business Insider before. Thank you again for joining me. Rather than going through your whole history because everybody knows and loves you, I'm sure, just give us a little update and what you've been up to lately.
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B
Sure, thank you. As you had mentioned in the introduction, Assistant Superintendent of Putnam Northern Westchester boces. That is relatively new role for me. I just started last week, so I'm in week number two.
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A
How's it going?
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B
It's going very well. For those maybe who don't know outside of New York. BOCES stands for Board of Cooperative Education Services. You think of it maybe as like a regional organization the school districts send their kids to to provide maybe CTE programs or special education services. And BOCES also provide a lot of professional development software, anything that you could do as a collaborative effort. And then there's some state aid that kind of helps offset the cost for districts. So I'm very excited. I was a BOCES before, spent four years in upstate New York at a BOCES before getting back into district and it's really a dream job for me to be at the boces. I I kind of like the regional collaborative effort rather than isolated to a district. So I'm really looking forward to getting into this new role.
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A
That's great. And everyone in your component districts I know is very excited, including myself being one of your component districts. So congratulations on the new position. I'm sure you're going to do some great things. But let's talk a little bit more about the gender bias and specifically on salaries and what you have found throughout your research. So tell me, you were pursuing your doctorate some years ago. What inspired you really to hone in on this subject specifically?
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B
So, you know, I started the doctorate program. A lot of it is classroom work. And some of my cohort colleagues were really smart about their approach, and they had their dissertation topic picked. So all the coursework that they did and completed was focused on their eventual dissertation. I was a little bit more scattered with it. You know, I was encouraged to go into the program by superintendent I was working with, and I didn't really have a clear focus on what I wanted to study. So during the coursework, I was working on different things, doing my homework assignment on different topics, and nothing ever really.
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A
So just trying to see what stuck.
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B
Nothing really settled at the time. I was in a district and I was doing HR work and business official work. And I thought, oh, I should do a study on what's it like to be a business official that's also doing hr. And every time somebody said, what are you doing your research on? I would try to verbalize it, but then people are looking at me like, what are you talking about?
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A
So if you can't do an elevator pitch on it, don't.
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B
If you can't, then it doesn't work. So I just started to brainstorm a phrase that I like to use is, I threw spaghetti at the wall to see what would stick. I just started jotting down ideas and working on things, and through one of my mentors that was working with me on it, bouncing ideas off of her, and at the same time was going on in kind of our society was this me too movement. And specifically, I remember the. The difference in the inequities of pay in male and female sports. Before, we were talking about, you know, now it's still probably an issue, but now male and female sports has different, you know, social impacts and political things going on. But back in 2017, 18, when I was going through this process, it was about the difference in pay for the female soccer team, the USA female team, compared to what the male soccer team gets. And it was like, big news at the time. I was like, oh, you know, I wonder if that exists in our own profession. You know, coming from the education world, to me, when you look at, say, teachers salaries, and I'm assured very similar in other states, teachers are on a salary schedule. So you've got.
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A
So there really is no bias on gender steps.
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B
Yeah, well, there could be some bias, right, And I'll explain a little bit about that. But the steps are years of service and like the lanes are credits, right? So you have master's degree, master's plus 30, you know, so on and so forth. So from. From a te. From that perspective, when. When a female teacher and a male teacher say they get hired on the same step, and. And lane, but the female will take time off for maternity leave, you know, to have a child raise the kid and maybe lose the. The ability to advance steps, because when they're out on maternity leave, say they take a year off, they don't advance step. They also don't have the opportunity to maybe continue their education in advanced lane. Right. And so what happens over time? A male and a female who get hired at the same time, the male continues to advance step and maybe advance lane changes, but the female teacher doesn't. And so over time there's a difference in. So it kind of makes sense. Maybe not, right, but it makes sense from a technical aspect. And I was like, well, surely that doesn't exist in the. In the business official world because we all have the same degree. Like, if you're a certified business official rather than civil service classified, you've got to have, you know, master's plus certification. We all kind of do the same work, so we must all get paid the same. So it was like, I wonder if it exists. And that's kind of what led into the research.
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A
So when you think back to your research, what were some of those big surprises or key takeaways that you found? I mean, I'm sure you went into this research with a predisposition on what you knew as a professional, maybe from your colleagues, maybe from your mentor. But what were those big surprises for you when you really kind of started digging into this?
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B
So I guess before I get into that, let me just say that before I started doing the research, I. I was able to access salary data from ASBO New York. They were able to give it to me completely, you know, confidential data. I didn't know names, but I knew titles and gender. And I was able to separate that salary data to see did a difference really exist or did it not exist? And so it did exist, surprisingly. So that was surprise. Number one. And then I was like, well, there's got to be research about this. And then what was surprise number two was there was actually research out there. Not a lot of research, but specific.
- [08:21]
A
To school business officials?
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B
No, not to school business, but. But the gender, you know, difference in salary. Okay. And a lot of, A lot of, A lot of research about gender discrimination, as you might, you know, imagine, and gender stereotypes, but very specific to salary differential and pay. And it was kind of guiding me towards this path of stereotypes and gender discrimination in negotiations. And so that was like, oh, the light bulb went on and said, okay, we all kind of negotiate our salaries. Is there something going on when you negotiate your salary, starting salaries, offers, everything else? And so the research really was leading me down that path.
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A
So when I look at the. You did present on this at one of our conferences in New York, and I think maybe you're interested in presenting on this on an international scale. It as blue International and Fort Worth would be great. But as part of that presentation in your study, you highlight that specifically to your study in New York, women are earning 87.5 cents for every dollar a man earns. How do you think this compares to just the nation at large? And why is this so significant specific to New York? Are you finding that this is kind of the same across the nation?
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B
So the data that I pulled was from, I think it was the 2017 or 2018 U.S. census Bureau. So it was back in reported in 2023, but the nationwide average was 83.6. So New York was doing better. Right. 88.5 or something. So New York women were not paid as less. You know, there wasn't as much of an earnings ratio difference between men and women, but still 12 cents less than, than men. Right. And so it was surprising that it did exist. Right. It's better than trending in the national level. And I think if you really drill down into different types of professions, it's all over the place. You know, but to, to look at the education industry profession and then to even narrow it down to education administrators was kind of interesting that that still would exist because, you know, you think of education as being education, right? So people have, are educated, you know, they, they maybe know better. You know, it. There's. There's a lot of, you know, skill and behind the profession. And so you'd think that something like that wouldn't exist, which then you, you know, talks about then when the research would talk about, say, the bias and the stereotypes behind what's going on. But I also needed to develop kind of a framework, like a conceptual framework. And so one of the things that I use as a backdrop for my study was Joan Acker. She's one of the early, you know, researchers in gender and talked about organizational culture. Right. So organizations are structured kind of on a. On a male construct. Right. So if you go back to the beginning of time when organizations were created, policies, procedures, organizational structure, there were a bunch of old men in a room like developing these, these rules.
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A
Right.
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B
And so the organizational culture was built around male dominance before women were even in the workplace. And then as, as society has changed, that culture really still exists. Right. So it's written into law, it's written into policy, procedure. It's just part of the organizational culture, which is the hardest thing to probably change. I think most people generally would be like, yeah, it doesn't, you know, it's not. Right. Should happen. But then you have to talk about how do you institute policy change?
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A
Yeah. How do you unwind all change?
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B
Right. It's. It's a little bit more intertwined. But the interesting stuff was really about perceptions. Right. So even if, even if the stereotype and the discrimination doesn't exist, and I want to be careful about this because I'm not suggesting that it doesn't exist, but let's just take it off the table for a minute. The perception that it exists has enough of an impact from the female's perspective that is changing the way they be. They would behave or approach negotiations.
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A
So tell me more about that. The perception from the woman's perception, or just in general on both sides of maybe an employer hiring a prospective employee who's female.
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B
Well, from both. Right. But you know, I would definitely say that there is. So the research would show the data would reflect that, that the stereotype and the discrimination does exist.
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A
Right.
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B
But the, the perception that, that there may be some sort of fallout for a discrimination changes the way a woman may approach the negotiations. So if, if a stereotype is that. That men are strong leaders and that aggression is a strong leadership of a male. If the stereotype that aggression for a female would be considered not a favorable characteristic, then a female entering into a negotiating setting is going to perceive that. I don't want to come across as too aggressive because I don't want the negative impact that's going to come from that, whether it exists or not. And I'm not saying it doesn't exist because the data shows it does exist, but just the perception that it's there is going to already affect somebody's Confidence level, their anxiety level, their willingness to take a risk, to be too assertive, they're already going to change their behavior because of the, the perceived negative fallout that could come from it. They could be negotiating with somebody who's very favorable.
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A
Right.
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B
You know, but just the perception that it would be there and the fear of, of the, of the retribution is enough to change somebody's behavior.
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A
So simple correlation, potentially a female's already at a disadvantage from a starting salary because they may not push as much to negotiate that when they have the opportunity coming into an organization based on that ill conceived perception that they don't want to come off as a strong leader because there's a negative connotation stereotypically to a woman doing that versus a man.
- [14:43]
B
Right. And so I think you said theoretically. Right. So that theory is what then I began to study. Right. And so based on those theories of perceived stereotypes within the workplace, I embarked on this qualitative study where I interviewed female business officials with, you know, a whole host of questions that were open ended to get them to talk about their experiences, to just to see if the results of the perception and the theory ended up being there. And that was probably what surprised me the most, is because I didn't want to believe it was there. Right, right. I mean, when I, when I think of the profession and I think of, you know, a lot, a lot of our colleagues or females, in fact, I think probably most of them that I've worked with over the course of years in neighboring districts and throughout the state are female business officials. Right. So like, I didn't even want to believe that it existed because it's somewhat embarrassing. But when you sit down and you start to talk with them in a, in a confidential setting, Right. Where they know that it's a safe, safe place, just the experiences that I was hearing from was very eye opening to me. And as, as a male colleague, I was embarrassed by it actually, you know, I felt even disturbed, you know, like that. And I was bothered by the fact that people I would consider friends, colleagues, were having that same experience within the profession that we all belong to. And I couldn't believe it, but yet it was there and it was proving itself throughout the interviews that I conducted.
- [16:27]
A
So you mentioned something about New York specifically and that a lot of your colleagues are female. Asbo New York does a lot of membership studies at least one annually, and I'm pretty confident that the latest study and for the past few years has shown that New York is predominantly dominated by female school business officials. So it Just seems confounding to me that this gender bias gap exists when our profession is made up majority of females. What was your take on that? Or is on that?
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B
Well, I guess surprising, right? I mean, I wasn't surprised that there were more female business officials. Right. The data does reflect that, but just the fact that, that it was there and that it seemed to be this little, like it was like a dirty little secret. And I'll explain what I mean by that. When I was interviewing some of the females, they would say, you know, like even, you know, I would get this new job and I would be talking to male colleagues and they would say, oh, make sure you go in and ask for, you know, don't let them take advant of you. Make sure you ask for a higher salary.
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A
So it was already being acknowledged.
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B
It was kind of like this dirty little secret that nobody even wanted. We kind of knew it was there, but it hasn't been called out. Right. And so I think that's probably the main thing that I want to accomplish through my study and hopefully future studies, but by talking about it and presenting on it is that I think it's time that we. We call it out, we talk about it, that we say, you know what? We don't want to believe it's there, but it's there. And so now what do we do with it? I did present at a group, it was with HR professionals, and it was a mixed audience, you know, of females and males. And it was an interesting response I always get during the presentation that there was a lot of almost kind of like being in church where a lot of, you know, people were shaking their heads. Yes.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Kind of like, you know, I've experienced that from females. Right. That positive interaction. And the ones in the audience that were challenging me were the males.
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A
Interesting. So I wanted to follow up with that. I agree with you. I think there should be a change systemically. But do you find through presenting, is there an appetite for that? I mean, I would assume there's one from the female contingency. But do you find there's support on both sides to maybe systemically change this bias or make an effort to do so?
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B
I. I do. I think. I think. And I don't have the data to support this, but I think generally speaking, the men that are in the profession don't wish this upon the women that are in the profession. But I think that it's so ingrained into the culture. You know, one thing that I've learned by talking about this and even being challenged by female business officials that one thing that they've talked about is microaggressions. Right. And so that there are numerous things that a female colleague experiences that they even perceive as a microaggression. And as a man, I'm thinking, come on, I don't think that was intended that way, but at the end of the day it really was a microaggression. Right. And so that's what's hard about changing the culture. Because even, say even myself as a thinking about these things and I'm hearing them, I would have to catch myself be like, no, really, that's. Is that really going on? But.
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A
Right. It could be your unconscious bias, right? I mean, we all know that's what.
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B
It is, unconscious bias, right. And I think men don't want to believe it's there, but in some way we kind of know it's there. And that might be, this is, I don't know, you know, I don't want to say something that would be perceived as some sort of making an excuse for men, but it might be some sort of that, that's part of that biological male kind of stereotype, right. That the stereotype about a man maybe exists as well. We are aggressive, but I think if.
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A
We don't have the conversation, at least acknowledge it, right.
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B
Then we're not going to get anywhere with it. So I think it's important to talk about it and not just talk, but listen. So the thing about the study was I didn't do a lot of talking. Like right now I'm doing a lot of talking because you're interviewing me. But during the study I would ask a question that was open ended and the, you know, the respondent would do all the talking and I would just take notes, maybe a follow up question. But taking all that information in and then dumping it into a database so that you can draw connections and seeing the, you know, the connections that came up was really revealing.
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A
So tell me, I want to start with this question. I'm going to circle back to your interviews. Specifically you had mentioned when you've been given presentations or have been talking to colleagues about this, you've been challenged both by males and by females. Have you found a common theme of what those challenges are or is it just kind of all over the place?
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B
So the common theme is, I feel that men are somehow in denial. The ones at least that speak up about it. And the one individual in one of these presentations that was, you know, kept challenging. I, I kind of called him out on it at one point. I Said so it's, you know, just even telling to me that of all the people that are asking me the questions and challenging the. The data, it's the men in the audience, and then immediately met with, oh, I didn't mean to, you know, like that kind of thing, but. But it was there, you know, And I feel that. I think when. And maybe this is my own kind of insecurities in a way. I also feel really weird about presenting it as a man.
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A
That was gonna be my question. As a white male, was it odd to be the one presenting and choosing this as a topic? And then kind of, you know, I think you're an expert in a lot of things, and this is probably one of those things. But was it just uncomfortable to maybe be that stereotype?
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B
It is. It's very uncomfortable. So when I. When I crafted my. My team, my dissertation team, I specifically put three what I've considered very important, very powerful, very professional women on my dissertation committee. And I thought that they would challenge me, you know, and they did. Right. And so during that process, I felt like I was put through the wringer, if you will, and constantly challenged in my research and my writing and other things, you know, which I think got me to a better product. I'm still struggling with that as I talk about it or present it, because there's limitations that I could bring to the table, you know, And I hope when I. When I talk about it, I'm really talking about the study in itself. I'm not talking about it from a personal experience.
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A
Right.
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B
But it's important that I feel like people with personal experience do get a chance to talk about it. So I can't, because I haven't lived through the bias, because, I mean, on the recipient side of a bias, but from a research base, I can talk about the research.
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A
Were you met with any skepticism or hesitation from women that you approached? Again, going back to you being a male doing research on gender bias, specifically with female.
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B
So I have not felt that. I felt like I was surprised that as many women wanted to talk about it, you know, and so when you do a qualitative study for purposes, you know, there's all sorts of confidentiality notices and everything else, and I have to have, you know, things built into my study that says, you know, you're. Even though I'm taping the interview, the interview is going to be destroyed after, you know, and there's all sorts of agreements and stuff that we signed. But the amount of response I had with people that were willing to participate in the study, I thought was interesting too, that they were willing to talk about it. And almost in some of some cases, there was a. Like a relief to have a medium to talk about it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
An outlet, really, which in some cases, some. Some of the people that participated would say things like, I wish there was somebody that would have talked to me about these things. You know, now that I'm maybe been a business official for 15, 20 years and I'm at the eve of my career, I wish there was somebody who would have shared this stuff with me. So I would. Would have known when I got into it. So that one of those things I thought of was maybe we could make that happen, you know, like through a mentor program. And I know saying things like mentorship doesn't solve the problem, but it's one element of being able to, you know, talk about it to incoming female business officials that could be talked to by female business officials that have lived through various experiences that can share with them, you know.
- [25:34]
A
Right.
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B
That that's real. I acknowledge that that's a real shallow result of the study, but it is one element of being able to make a difference.
- [25:43]
A
Right. So in your studies and your conversations with the subjects that you were able to speak with, how did they explain their approach to negotiations? Or what did the data tell you about how maybe a female would approach negotiations versus a male? We talked a little bit about it in terms of perception and aggression. Was there anything else that came about in the data?
- [26:09]
B
So there was kind of a common theme from. From the women that I interviewed that said that they would do things to kind of quote, unquote, over compensate. So they felt like when they would go into negotiations that they needed to. Because they would be met with some sort of resistance at the table. They needed to have everything, all the data prepared. They would have to do their research. They would have to have everything so that if they were ever challenged, they could just pull the research, pull the data and be able to respond. And that would create a lot of. A lot more work. Right.
- [26:48]
A
So they're doing a lot of.
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B
They were feeling like they would. They were working harder in order to be at the same place because they would be challenged at the table. Whereas even their perception was that men didn't have to do that. Right. And so. Or that men were experiencing more of. Probably the best way I could explain it, and some of them use this terminology, was like an old. The boys club. Right. And so if. If men are negotiating with a male union rep, it's handshakes and you know, sports lingo and different things that kind of boxed out somebody else that, that didn't, you know, wasn't able to assimilate that same kind of information. And so they felt like they had to, you know, be more competent or come across as more competent because they were being looked at differently.
- [27:34]
A
Right.
- [27:35]
B
And that, that goes into the whole stereotype. Right. Or the discriminatory element of it. And there were some real live examples that, that the women would share during the interview process. Say, you know, like we were having this negotiation setting, and then they would, you know, do a run around behind closed doors. The men would. Would negotiate, you know, without me in the room or something like that, or there'd be like a handshake deal. And so those were real live events that they were experiencing and being able to talk about.
- [28:11]
A
Did you find any strategies out of this research that maybe can be used in the negotiations process in navigating these challenges?
- [28:21]
B
Yeah, so one of the things that came up in the research was that women who are negotiating on behalf of themselves were experiencing a different type of stereotype than if they were negotiating on behalf of somebody else. And so the best thing that I can liken that that too is again, talking about stereotypes. Right. Is that this idea, this stereotype that a woman is very motherly and nurturing. And so if you look at it through that lens, when the woman is negotiating for the unit, then it's like the mother taking care of the children. And so that has a positive view than when, if the, if the woman is negotiating for herself, it's like the mother somehow is supposed to take care of the children before she takes care of herself. And so it's the self, selfless or selfish kind of like, dynamic going on. And so that was kind of interesting. So I thought, well, there was a study that was done with where female attorneys were negotiating contracts and they were, you know, where if a female attorney was aggressive and demanding and strong, that was a very positive aspect when they were negotiating on behalf of somebody else.
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A
Interesting.
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B
But if they're negotiating for themselves, it was, it was the flip side. Right, right. And so one of the things that I'm recommending, you know, at the end of my dissertation is that, you know, maybe negotiating for ourselves isn't the best course of action. Having somebody negotiate on our behalf. You know, like, and I don't mean that from just a male, female, a female thing, but maybe men too. Like, I'm very uncomfortable negotiating my own contract. I would love if I had an advocate or an attorney negotiating for Me kind of removes the person from it. And so that's one thing is it doesn't fix the stereotype, but it might advance salary negotiations a little bit more. You know, so there's the strategy. You met strategy. So there's the mentoring, there's the, you know, talking about it, there's possibly third party advocacy and training. Right. And so I think from an association standpoint, there's a real role for an associate like an ASBO to do the training, the professional development, but also maybe to do the advocacy, you know.
- [30:37]
A
So I think with that there's a lot that has to go back on the organizations themselves and just leadership in general. So why is gender bias really an organizational issue, not just an issue for the, maybe a female candidate?
- [30:52]
B
Well, think of what the organization's missing out on. Right. And so if, if the organization, through its outdated and ill developed structure is discriminating against highly qualified candidates, then ultimately the organization is missing out on being able to hire that candidate or, or keep or, you know, retain a highly qualified candidate. Right. And so that's one issue with it. It's not just, it's not just a woman's issue. Right. It's an organizational issue.
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A
Right.
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B
It's the inability to have the best. I mean, it wasn't part of my, my study, but there's other research out there about women who won't even apply for jobs because the, the job description for the opening for the vacancy is so descriptive. And a woman will look at that and say, Well, I, there's 10 qualities here and I only have eight of them. So I'm not really qualified. Whereas the male would be like, there's 10 qualities there, I only have five. But I'm going to go for it.
- [31:49]
A
But I'll go for it anyway. Yeah.
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B
And so that's why it's not just a woman's issue, it's an organizational issue if you're missing out on the most highly qualified. And like I said, that wasn't part of my study. But in some of those conversations I've had with people, there's another element to this problem that exists that I think needs further exploration. Right.
- [32:09]
A
So what recommendations would you have for a school district or an organization listening to this to really kind of break down those gender bias barriers and create a more equitable salary negotiations and just overall hiring process?
- [32:22]
B
Well, think we're starting to see some change in law, right. With salary transparency laws, you know, you can't ask somebody what they were making in a previous, you know, position and those kinds of policy changes to me, and maybe somebody would disagree with this, but I think just having, calling it out, knowing that it exists, I mean, as we've seen in recent years, talking about bias. Right. And I think just bringing attention to it is the beginning point. It doesn't solve the problem, but we can't solve a problem if we don't know, exist. And so I think, I think it's really important to start the conversation so that people much smarter than me can come up with real solutions, you know, that, that can maybe advance this issue a little bit further than I'm able to do, but.
- [33:16]
A
And since completing your dissertation, have you seen any meaningful change kind of heading in the right direction when it comes to the gender bias issue or just an inherent bias with organizations and the male, female dynamic?
- [33:28]
B
Yeah, I think, I think because it's been more in the conversation. Right. People are talking about it. You're starting to see more policy change, more, you know, changes in the law. I don't, I don't have any data at this point. I haven't restudied it to see if, if any real meaningful change has occurred. But 10, 15 years ago, we weren't talking about it. Right. And so a lot of changes come and it's even hard for me to even think that from when I started this to where we are today. It's almost been eight years. Right. And so a lot, a lot can change over that period of time. I think it's time for somebody to do a refresh and, you know, just to see if, if there has been any meaning, meaningful change.
- [34:11]
A
And is there opportunities for organizations like an ASBO or an HR affiliate organization to really kind of spotlight this issue and maybe offer more professional development or more context around what can be done to maybe improve this?
- [34:26]
B
Yeah, I think so. And we've been. I mean, I guess that something that I have seen is we've had a couple workshops in at ASBO at our conferences that have been around this topic and related topics, and some of the HR associations, you know, have had this topic on their agendas as well. So I think it's, it's becoming more part of the conversation, but I think there's so much more that can be done.
- [34:52]
A
Sure.
- [34:53]
B
So you had mentioned that it would be a good topic for an ASBO international conference, and I agree. I put in a proposal for it, but I think more and more PD opportunity is definitely a good thing.
- [35:05]
A
Yeah. So kind of wrapping up here, Ron, I mean, you've done a lot of good work in terms of your research, and I think a lot of our listeners will get something out of this. But what do you kind of hope to see in the next few years as this topic is maybe spotlighted more through pd? Maybe some more research? And what are your hopes really kind of moving forward?
- [35:27]
B
So I think my hope is we would begin to see a change right in the marketplace, that we would be closing the gap and eliminating the gap, really eliminating the gap altogether in the wage differential. I think, you know, we, we talked about PD with, with business officials and HR professionals, but I think it's got to get into, at least for this, for this profession, it's got to get into PD for superintendents and school boards.
- [35:55]
A
Right.
- [35:55]
B
So that there's an awareness on that level, too, because maybe they're the ones that are setting policy. They're the ones that are maybe even negotiating the contracts. And so that there's more awareness at a different level. So there's the awareness at our level so that people can maybe learn strategies to negotiate better for themselves, feel a little bit more confidence. But then on the other side of the table, there's got to be some PD to call out these biases and to become more aware so that we're kind of eliminating it from the space.
- [36:30]
A
Right. Well, Ron, it's always a pleasure to have you on School Business Insider. Thanks for taking a little bit more time and sitting down with me today.
- [36:36]
B
Thanks, John. Appreciate it. Thanks for inviting me.
- [36:40]
A
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