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Breaking the Silence: Addressing Mental Health Among School Business Officials
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- [00:01]
John Brucato
Hi listeners. This episode contains discussions about mental health challenges, including anxiety, depression and suicidal ideation. Listener discretion is advised. If you or someone you know is struggling, please seek support from a mental health professional or contact the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988. You're listening to ASBO International's School Business Insider. I'm your host, John Brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello and welcome back to School Business Insider. Today we're addressing a topic that's both deeply personal and universally significant. Mental health in the realm of school business leadership. Our guest today is Peter Bard, Chief Financial Officer of East Stroudsburg Area School District in Pennsylvania. Peter recently authored a candid article titled Speaking My Personal Mental Health Journey where he shares his experience with anxiety and depression and and the challenges of maintaining mental well being in a high pressure role. In this episode, Peter opens up about his journey, the stigma surrounding mental health, and the steps he's taken towards healing and advocacy. We'll also discuss the importance of mental health awareness and support systems within our own profession. Peter, welcome to the podcast. I'm so happy to have you on today.
- [01:43]
Peter Bard
Thank you, John, for having me. This is a, this is a great opportunity to discuss, you know, my journey and also discuss the importance of, of ensuring that we take care of ourselves and our profession.
- [01:54]
John Brucato
Yeah, I mean, your article was incredibly moving. If people listening haven't read it, I encourage you to do so both just in what you had to go through and just your openness and willing to share your journey. So thank you again for maybe for coming on and being able to do that a little bit further. But before we kind of go into that too much, can you just tell our listeners about your role at East Stroudsburg and what led you to write the article for School Business now?
- [02:21]
Peter Bard
Sure. I'm the Chief Financial Officer of the Stroudsburg Area School District. I've been here for about a little over two years. Like I mentioned a little bit earlier to you, off, off, off. Mike. We were. I'm transitioning to a different school district, Central Dolphin School District. I'll start there on June 2, but I'm managing a budget of a little over 200 million. And what really progged me to do this was I was at a pasbo. The pasbo, the Pennsylvania association of School Business Officers Annual Conference last year in 2024. And they had a, they had a panel on mental health. And it really pushed me to say, you know what? I think my story that I went through really could help, you know, help maybe help people. And if it helps one person, then I think that's a, a beneficial, I mean, that's very, very, very beneficial for, for people. And so I decided that I wanted to present at the Pasbo 2025 conference that took place in March. And so I did. And I was approached by an ASBO International member of, of Robert Saul, who's the business manager of the East Penn Area School District. He's a good friend of mine and he, he encouraged me to write down the article for, for ASBO International. And so I did. And he had the same idea that I did, that if it helped one person, then it would be a tremendous help for everyone. So that's why I did it. And I hope that even speaking with you today, John, and getting this podcast out will help people and help people understand that, you know what, mental health isn't a stigma that, you know, in the profession and in the world today that we all have to be cognizant of, of our struggles. And it's not something to be ashamed of if you're dealing with, with sadness, depression, anxiety, and that you have to take care of yourselves. Because if you're not good for your. If you're not in a good space, you're not going to be a good CFO or business manager, and you're not going to be good for your staff, your district. But most importantly, you're not going to be good at home for your, for your family and your friends.
- [04:09]
John Brucato
Right, right. Well, quick shout out to Bob Saul, also a good friend of mine, and always love speaking with him. And he was recently on the podcast as well. You know, you said you started kind of telling your story in a presentation format. Were you nervous about that? I mean, that's a really vulnerable setting and topic to discuss in front of a room full of your peers. It's talking about long range planning and budget development is kind of one thing.
- [04:34]
Peter Bard
Right.
- [04:35]
John Brucato
But being so open and honest about your own journey is certainly another. So talk me through just what was going through your mind and, you know, were you kind of a little anxious to kind of be so vulnerable?
- [04:47]
Peter Bard
Yeah, actually I was. I was extremely nervous that particular day. I was kind of hoping the hour would pass me by quick that I had to do this presentation. And I was like, what was I thinking? Even agreeing to do this at that particular time. But when I got in it and I saw the support of the people that were in the room, I think it was about 30 or 30, 40 people in the room. I got to, I got centered and, and really began to think that, you know what, this is a good opportunity to do this. And to be honest with you, if you read the article, you know, when I was struggling in doing, going through these, these periods of time, I mean, my parents and family and friends didn't even know I was going through it. So to come that long way and to, and to go through the, and going to therapy and with my psychologists that I've gone to over the years, the therapists have always said it's always very, very important to be open and honest and talk about it. Because when you suffer in silence, it's really the pain that just compounds the pain more. So being able to talk about I think is very therapeutic and important. So as I got started to talk about it, it became even more therapeutic. So even the nervousness and the anxiety went away and kind of melted away as I continue to talk about it. So I think it's just important to be able to do that. I think it was even therapeutic when I, you know, in part of my discussion, even with the people around me to talk about the story so that people know that if I'm struggling with mental health, mental health is a constant struggle. So even today I still struggle with the depression and anxiety. I have days of low energy, days of high anxiety, and there's things I have to be cognizant of and things I have to be aware of. So I think it's very, very important that I power through even, even that day of anxiety presenting. I think that's an important and a good measuring stick to see how far I even came in that respect to talk about it.
- [06:42]
John Brucato
Well, you mentioned in the earlier years you were, you were suffering in silence. Why was that? Is that something that was just deeply personal to you that you didn't want to open up about? Was it just difficult to express how you were feeling? Why was your suffering just for you?
- [06:55]
Peter Bard
Well, yeah, so, I mean, I'll start. I was bullied when I was in elementary school. So when I was in, in fourth, fifth, sixth grade, I played little league baseball and kids would make fun of me for my, for my way pigeon toed my lack of athleticism. I got up to the plate, struck out every time I think I had 10 at bats and struck out of nine of them. So you know, when I told my parents about it. And because I didn't want to go back to practice or whatever, my mom, you know, took, went to the coach, and the coach said, hey, don't talk to this, you know, don't bother this people, our kid. And remember, we're talking about this in the mid-90s, so we're not talking about ways that, you know, they knew how to deal with these type of things. And so the kids just cut out and didn't, you know, bother me, didn't bother me anymore and didn't want to talk or even be friends. So it became even worse. So, you know, when you're fast, you know, Fast forward to 2020, 2009, 2010, when I first dipped into my darkest, one of my first darkest moments, one of those things where I really want to talk about it, because you're going into those periods of time where you had that deep sense of sadness and what happened was your, you know, your parents tried to fix everything. Because that's what parents, good parents do. They try to fix when your kids are hurting, right? And really, they, in essence, sometimes make it worse. So I think looking back on, and when I talk to therapists about it and things of that nature, and psychologists, that's kind of some, some of the reasons we came up with when we're thinking about it. But I think that's one of the reasons why you suffered in silence. I suffered in silence in particular. I didn't have any issues, you know, when the bullying stopped. When I got to junior high school, high school, I had a great junior high and high school career, believe it or not. Normally people say it happens in middle school, but for me, it happened in elementary school and whatnot. But when I got to this different level, I just never really told my parents when it was happening in elementary school, I didn't tell them because I had that experience right when I got to Little League, so Little League was fourth grade. I didn't tell them what was happening in school. So that's all I really knew how to deal with it when I was younger. And so when I got older, you know, in my mid-20s, you're thinking, we know better. Well, in reality, maybe I didn't know better. You know, I kind of regret to what I knew as a little kid and the defense mechanism. So that's kind of why I didn't say I didn't suffer. And you know what? I didn't want my. My parents to worry. I didn't want them, you know, when you had your mind set on a particular thing, like, I'm going to. I'm going to end my life because I'm just in this really bad spot. Like, I really just want to take these pills, drink this alcohol, and just combine those two really bad things together in excess and then go to sleep and not wake up the next morning. You don't want anybody to try to stop you because you're in that spot, and you knew people that you love are going to try. The people that love you are going to try to stop you. And so in that really bad spot, that's kind of what you were thinking. And you really just didn't want people to intervene in that particular pocket spot because you thought that that was, you know, kind of where you were at. So I think, you know, when you get into that bad spot, you just, you know, know, my thing is always reach out to somebody, you know, and reach out. And that's why I think even in the. In the article, there was those. Those help lines were put in there by the editors. And I think it's very, very important to reach out when you're in that bad spot. But I think that's why I suffer in silence a lot, too.
- [10:05]
John Brucato
Yeah. And I mean, it sounds too like just having experienced that in the fourth grade, I mean, that. That was your first kind of introduction to being vulnerable, and I'm assuming you didn't want to have that equivalent of being boxed out by a group of friends again. So it's just like, I might as well just keep it to myself because I don't want to have to maybe risk the fact that maybe it's not literally being ostracized from a friend group, but just that vulnerability sounded like it led to some unfortunate outcomes at such a young age. So that's. That's a lot.
- [10:35]
Peter Bard
And, you know, and I think some people. And they. And some of my friends, even. Even outside of the. And some people even look at you. Some look. Look at you and say, well, what could Pete really be sad about or upset about? You know, he has this great job. He's making a lot of money. He's, you know, he's. He should be, you know, living a good life, has a great job. He's advanced so far in his career so quickly, you know, at eight years, you know, eight years in the business, and I'm at, you know, going to perhaps one of the largest districts in the state. And by all measures, by all outside measures, you're. You're wildly successful, but inside, you're. You're struggling and you're hurting. And so like you said, just mentioned about being boxed out by your friends. Your friends may think, hey, you know why you're being sad, like you have nothing to be sad about. But in reality there's things that just work and build castles in your head that make these scenarios up, you know, and that's what the, and that's what depression and anxiety is. It's that chemical imbalance that creates these castles. And that's what you have to constantly work through and constantly get over. Constantly. Not work through, you know, not worrying about what you're in this profession. I'll tie it back to the profession that's what we're talking to. Not worry about, not work through, not try to read through my too much through the lines of what your superintendent said, what your co workers have said, not what the school boards have said. You know, board members have said things of that nature and take everything at face value and not try to build those castles. And I think that's really kind of what the day to day struggle is like when you suffer with that disability on a day to day basis.
- [12:08]
John Brucato
Well, I always found it so perplexing when people would use that argument of, you know, why are you so sad? There's people that are having so much worse than you or so much more depressed or sad than you. It's like, well, you could make the same counter argument like why are you so happy? There's people that are doing so much better than you and are so much happier than you. It's just not a, it's not a direct correlation. It just never really made sense to me, you know.
- [12:27]
Peter Bard
Yeah, and that's, and that's what like. And you know, and to be honest, I'm not trying to down them or be like ignorant to them. They're trying to help you, you know.
- [12:34]
John Brucato
Of course, of course. It's kind of a natural reaction. You really kind of walk it through.
- [12:38]
Peter Bard
It's like, yeah, they're just trying to take your mind off the negativity that you may have built up. But they're trying to say, you know, why, you know, you're making all this money and you don't have a lot of bills, you don't have, like for me I'm single, have my wife or kids and they're like, well, you don't have these bills that I have and you know, I'm happy. But yet here you are and you're down in the dumps all the time and you're low energy and you're this and you're that. And. And that's just their lack of understanding of.
- [13:02]
John Brucato
Right.
- [13:02]
Peter Bard
What goes on. And. And it's not, like I said, it's not a terrible, you know, terrible place to be. And it's just. You have to have that understanding. So like you, Nick, you mentioned just the fear of being boxed out when you're in that spot. That's why there's always those professionals you have to go to that understand the. I think that's why I always reach out to my therapist. But I didn't have a therapist in 2010 when I first started, when I first had the first ideation. But luckily for me, my dog was my therapist. Luckily, you know, and. And I had my. My faith in. In my. My. The faith saved me as well. But, you know, the things that came up and. And those different type of things. But if I went to my friends, they'd be like, you're nuts. You know, what's wrong? You know, why would you be in this mindset? I mean, you have it. You have a great. I mean, you have all these people that, like, love you, they like you, they think you're great. And, you know, it's just these castles that continually build. I call them castles because they just continually build in your mind, and it's so hard to get. To get through them. So I think it's just, you know, and that's. It comes up even. Even. Even in. Currently. In current. Current days, even though you're, you know, I take medication for the. For the depression and anxiety, and I go to therapy you know, once a month or sometimes twice a month, depending on, you know, how. What's going on in my life. And to this day, because you have to stay on top of it. And even to this day, you still struggle with those type of castles that you build, and you still have to talk through it, and you still sometimes have to talk to yourself and talk yourself out of them, you know.
- [14:27]
John Brucato
Right. So. So can you walk me through a little bit more of your mental health journey? I mean, that. That story was really interesting and impactful about, you know, the Little League and being in fourth grade. And that really, like, cemented a lot of your feelings in terms of how you would deal with them. But when did you recognize you were really facing challenges? It was, I think you said 2010, 2009 era, or was it kind of in between, or walk me through that.
- [14:52]
Peter Bard
So it was more 2010. So in 2010, I was applying to be a seminarian for the Diocese of Scranton, and I Decided I didn't want to do that because I just got cold feet. You know, I decided that I wanted to pursue, you know, I wanted to pursue, you know, wanted to maybe have a. Finding a girlfriend and that type of thing. And. Sure. You know, being a priest is, is obviously exact opposite of that, that lifestyle. So I was a security officer, seasonal security officer for the Teneri School District. And I was actually, when I, when I decided not to do it, I was kind of like there was a happiness about it, but then that happiness kind of like almost like a cliff fell off the cliff then into the fall of that. Of the 2010 year. And so I just really fell into this really dark. It was almost like, I want to say it was like a nightfall like. And with no light say. So envision that, you know, when you're, when the power out, when you have a power outage, not just like the night when you're in the woods and there's like maybe the moonlight. The. Just envision like you have a thunderstorm, perfect clouds, perfect darkness that surrounds you. And that's kind of what I fell into in a very slow, methodical way into the month of October and then hitting this crescendo probably, I think was around mid November, if I remember correctly.
- [16:04]
John Brucato
Can, can you attribute that descent to something in particular or was it just kind of a culmination of different things are happening or it was just.
- [16:11]
Peter Bard
No, I don't. And that's. And that's, and that's the. And that's when I should have known that something was, was more wrong with, you know, more not, not wrong, but something that I should have sought more because remember, I didn't seek. I didn't go to my. I didn't go to a doctor and talk to doctor about this until 2020, 15. And that was before. And I had a second ideation in 2020. But the 2010, the 2010 thing, I didn't go to see a doctor. I didn't tell my doctor about this or anything like this until 2015. But here's what. So what happened was, is when I had these. So I didn't want to make a mess for my parents. And I guess I don't even know how I stumbled upon these things. But remember, they didn't have these different triggers like they do now. Like when you search Google, like when you Google suicide thoughts or suicide ideations, whatever, there's triggers that triggered Google searches and they could, you know, ding in and sometimes you get a welfare check immediately on you. They don't do that. They didn't have these things around you even back in 20, 2010.
- [17:08]
John Brucato
Right.
- [17:08]
Peter Bard
But, you know, I was able to find some kind of method that if you combine certain amount of pills and alcohol, you would just talk. The toxicity in your blood would just put you to sleep and you would, you know, pass away in your sleep. It's horrible way. I don't, you know, it's. It's horrible.
- [17:23]
John Brucato
Right.
- [17:23]
Peter Bard
But it was better than if you, you know, when I read also, like, I've heard so many stories in my life and there's people in my life, friends in my life that did commit suicide and they, you know, it with a gun and they had the mess. And then, you know, my mom was telling me a story about how one of her girlfriend's sons committed suicide. They had to clean up the mess after. I didn't want that parents either. And that was horrible too. So I just was going to do it that way. And so the night I was going to do that or the night before. I'm sorry, not the night up. The night before. I had a golden retriever named Bruno and there's a picture in the article if you wanted to see him. He came into my room and he never, like, he always came in my room to. To get petted and whatever because, you know, golden's are the best breed of dogs in my opinion and retrievers. He came in my room and he just jumped on my bed and was just laying by me and he wouldn't leave my side for that whole night and he put his head on my chest. And it was interesting because in 2020, when I get to that story, my. The golden, that the new golden, because Bruno died in 2019 or 2017 from cancer. But we got in, we got a replacement golden, but he. Bruno just laid there and put his head on my chest and just laid there. Like he looked at me like, hey, where you going, buddy? Yeah. And like I just busted out in tears and I couldn't. And another thing that was really sad about this, John was looking back on it was I couldn't cry. Like, it was almost one of those things where like, you couldn't bust out any type of emotion. Like, it was like, it was like this brick wall of not of emotions.
- [18:45]
John Brucato
Just kind of numb to everything.
- [18:46]
Peter Bard
Yeah. Yeah. And it was just the darkness type of thing. And I just broke out in the tears and just cried for like an hour. And he was like looking away the tears I was crying. And that kind of freed me from that darkness like a little bit. Then the darkness started to clear. It was slowly. So I decided I didn't want to do. And I kept delaying it, delaying it, delaying. And then all of a sudden I decided I didn't want to do it. I didn't even write a note so nobody would have known what I did it for, why, which is probably even worse looking back. But so I decided I came out of it slowly and I became, you know, the normal. I got back to feeling, you know, better and good about myself and I went about my normal life and, and you know, so. And I didn't tell anybody that I experienced this.
- [19:27]
John Brucato
So you were still suffering in silence this whole time? I mean, right?
- [19:30]
Peter Bard
Yeah, I was still sad. I was still like, I still had these, you know, these periods of extreme sadness and anxiety, but I didn't tell anybody about. And I just had these, you know, if you could see, you know, my hand going up and down, I had these up and down moments where, but I never got into that really dark period where I wanted to, you know, wanted to have the suicide ideation. And that would get to my next point when I, when I was, I was dating somebody and, and she noticed that I had these, these up and down moments. She's like, you know, she, and she said, you know, why do you start crying or get upset over nothing, like over these little things. She said, you know, I think you have the, I think you might have depression. She said, because why would you, you know, you're upset about these things. She should probably talk to your, you know, I wanted you to talk to your doctor. And she said it from a real place of love. It was sure really like a nice. It wasn't the way I'm saying it may seem a little more colder, but it was really a nice conversation. And so, you know, when I went to talk to my doctor, we had actually a really long conversation about everything. And that's when I told him about 2010. I told him what was going on from 2010 to 2015 and how all these different emotions were going up and down and how I was, you know, I didn't had trouble with commitments, I had trouble with, you know, low energy. I had trouble with that, you know. And you know, he said, I think I want you to go see a psychologist for therapist and see what he thinks before I give you any medication because I don't want to just throw you on medication if that's not what was going on. And so I went to see a therapist and I was going once a week to start talking through stuff, and turns out I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety. So I started medication, and within about a month or so, I started feeling much better. So I started feeling like more. I didn't want to. So the reason I want to start medication, John, too. And this is where I get to the Stig. The stigma. Talk about the stigma. The stigma of the whole thing was I didn't want to go to. Because I didn't want to walk around with a smile on my face all the time.
- [21:21]
John Brucato
Right. You know how artificially happy.
- [21:25]
Peter Bard
Yeah, yeah. You know how, like, there was a stigma going around. Like, if you get on medication, you. You feel like you can't feel sadness because then you can't really, truly appreciate the happiness when you're happy and. Right, right. So I don't want to go on medication to feel that way. And so when I told myself, my doctor, that he's like, no, no, no, the medication is a lot different now. He said, I won't put you on, you know, Xanax or the other stuff. He goes, I'll put you on some other things and we'll try. He goes, and it's no perfect remedy to the medication. He said, so. And that's actually been the case because I've had medication changed about three or four times and different, you know, different dosages and things of that nature over the course of the last, you know, 10 years now, because it's almost. Yeah, I started in 2015, so it's 2025, and September 2025, it'll be 10 years. So I've had, you know, different doses and different prescriptions written, and I've had. I've still had the ups and downs, but the downs aren't so great. The ups are good, and the downs aren't so big, and I haven't had that experience except 2020. But 2020 is a completely different story, and we'll get to that. But. Yeah.
- [22:28]
John Brucato
Well, it sounds like you were able to. You know, I've experienced this in my. In my family with. With anxiety and depression. And it.
- [22:36]
Peter Bard
It.
- [22:36]
John Brucato
From what I've. What I've gathered is the medication allows you to kind of modulate a little bit easier. So your highs aren't as high, but your lows aren't as low. You're able to kind of just ride a little bit more steady and. And kind of control those emotions. Was that kind of your experience, too?
- [22:50]
Peter Bard
Yeah, it's exactly my experience. The highs aren't. You don't get, like, hyper high, like, where you're running around like, but I don't know, like the Bugs Bunny. When you get where you're running around where you get like hyper.
- [23:01]
John Brucato
Like my three year old.
- [23:02]
Peter Bard
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like, like, yeah, like a three year old. Like my nephew's three and he runs around like, like crazy. Yeah, we're like, like you're on a sugar high and you don't run around like, and you don't get the, you don't get bummed out, you don't get deep into depression where you know, you're laying in bed all day and you can't function like for days. Right.
- [23:21]
John Brucato
But to your point, you can still feel those emotions. They just, they're not as intense maybe feel.
- [23:26]
Peter Bard
And there are days where you still need a day where you can sleep, sleep all day, where you need to recharge after a week, you know, but it's not like those days where you need days and days of those type of things. We don't really can't function. So it is like that. And so when we get to 20, 20, 2020. Story is I started a new job at a school district and I'm not going to mention, I won't mention school. I don't think I did in the piece. But you know, I took the job and I didn't have the support network that I had thought I would was going to have when I took the position. And I think that's really one of the first cautionary tales is when you're taking a new job in a school district, you always ensure during the interview process or the, you know, before you accept the position, you have everything you need in a district. Some business managers are, are really good at accounting and not so good at operations. So you need to make sure if your job is to manage operations that you have some good people that are surrounding you that can help you with that if you're not so good at accounting. Accounting, but so you have some accountants on your staff that you can help with the accountants and you're good with the other stuff.
- [24:27]
John Brucato
If I remember correctly, you were, you were newer in your career but your staff that you were inheriting weren't necessarily the strongest in certain areas. So you were kind of like learning on the fly while trying to keep the ship afloat.
- [24:38]
Peter Bard
Right, Correct. And that's exactly right. That's, that's a perfect way to acknowledge it. So you know, like I don't have, I've gotten a lot better at doing the, the accounting. So I'm not as most efficient at accounting, but I'm not, you know, I'm not as lost as I was, you know, two or three years ago when I. Years into it. And I had, you know, when I was at my first district, I had an accountant that was like a cpa. And her and I would do, you know, we had different tasks in the office. And I would do one part of the stuff she didn't like, and she would do the other half of the stuff that I didn't like. So it was exactly. And so we worked, you know, we worked extremely well together. And when I got to the other district, it was kind of, you know, it was just a mishmash and of different things. And so when we got there, I was learning on the fly. Then all of a sudden, so three months into it, covet came so. And then, you know, they took. It seemed to me, in my. My impression. And really what maybe wasn't the most accurate impression. So it goes back to the castles you build in your head.
- [25:35]
John Brucato
Right.
- [25:36]
Peter Bard
The accurate impression was. Or the impression I got was, you know, they took all your rights away with a press conference. You know, where they shut down. You got, you know, Hazelton. They put us under a curse, a few. Because we had the highest spread rate in Luzern county, where I live, you know, and so it was, you know, then I can't work with my staff to learn what they're doing. And I also learned that, you know, we got a little tight tangled up in, you know, in some stuff that I wasn't really experienced with. And I thought the other staff, what the people in the staff was. And it turns out they didn't know how to do it either. So. Oh, my God. It was like.
- [26:08]
John Brucato
So just layering on issue.
- [26:10]
Peter Bard
Yeah, just layering on. And it was like all of a sudden the castles got built from like. All of a sudden it was like, boom. And then the. The excitement of starting a new job just crashed right through the floor.
- [26:22]
John Brucato
Sure.
- [26:22]
Peter Bard
So there was not only. There's any amount of medication that could have helped. And on top of that, other therapists, I wouldn't. The therapist I would have gone to, I was going to an in person therapist. And he retired a few months before three. About. Maybe. Maybe three months before COVID I haven't found the new one yet. And because I was feeling good, so I was kind of lackadaisical about it. So for six months I didn't go to therapy, but I couldn't find the new one. Because they were all virtual then. And they.
- [26:50]
John Brucato
Yeah, because right on the onset of the pandemic the whole idea of you could just do zoom meetings for everything wasn't there yet. That wasn't until after. We had to.
- [26:58]
Peter Bard
Yeah, it wasn't for six months after. So it wasn't until they got some clarification as to who could do what. If you remember, who could do what during the. During the pandemic.
- [27:08]
John Brucato
Yeah, it was central personnel.
- [27:10]
Peter Bard
Yeah, exactly. So it was one of those things where I didn't have anybody. I couldn't. I couldn't even go to church because the Diocese of Scranton, they shut down all the masses as well. So I didn't have anything. And so I crashed. So I went right back to what I knew in 2010. This time, I wrote a letter, I wrote a note, and I think I didn't have any support at school. I was terrified to tell anybody about the struggles I was having with staff because I was a new business manager. I didn't have the clout. You know, I was too new. Even though the superintendent and I were good friends, he was good friends for going back 10, 15 years, I was afraid to let him down. You know, I was afraid to let anybody down, afraid to tell my new school board because they didn't know me that well. I was afraid of all this stuff, right? So I wrote this note. I wrote how much I was ashamed of letting people down. And all this other stuff. Stuff I wrote to put on the desk the night before, same thing happened, but this time, Oliver came in. He's my other dog, my new dog. He's still around. He's awesome. He's the best. He came in and did the same thing. And, I mean, I went. But this darkness wasn't like a slow encroachment. And I knew what triggered it this time. Like, John, you know, in 2010, we didn't know what triggered it this time. I knew what triggered it, right. So. And I was still on medication. I didn't stop taking the medication. I didn't stop, you know, I didn't stop the trip treatment, and, you know, and this time, there was help out there. I mean, I didn't call any. Any help lines. I didn't do any of this stuff. I was like, you know, I got to get out of this situation. I. I. I don't know any way out of it. I was, like, trapped. You know, I didn't want to. Like, I didn't know if I. If I spoke up, if I would lose my job. I didn't know if they'd say. And, you know, you know, I still, you know, Living at home still. I mean, I. You know, in Covid, there was. Nobody really knew what to do in Covid, and I didn't want to put, you know, more stress on anybody else. And it was just so many different things, John, that you just compound on this. Yeah, but so it was just in May, it was like spring weather. I think it was one of those. We had a cold snap. And, like, another thing that happens with my particular case of depression is I have a seasonal depressional disorder disorder as well.
- [29:16]
John Brucato
Right.
- [29:16]
Peter Bard
So, you know, that was another thing I was diagnosed with during this depressional thing, too, because I get. In the winter time, it's a lot worse than it is in the spring and summer.
- [29:27]
John Brucato
As a fellow Northeasterner, I can sympathize with.
- [29:29]
Peter Bard
Yeah, no, and it's a real thing. And people say it's not a real thing. It's a real thing. I can do it when it's just.
- [29:35]
John Brucato
Gray every day for three months, four months straight.
- [29:39]
Peter Bard
And we had a cold snap in that particular May, And I remember it like it was yesterday. And so it just. It hit me, and I was going to do it. I was going to. It was the night before, and I was going to do it. And Bruno, or not a Bruno, excuse me, Oliver came in and he. He did the same thing that Bruno did. It was almost like Bruno was reincarnated in Ollie and. And Ollie and Ollie sat there and he even slept in my room that night. He never does, you know, he never slept in my room, and he wanted. He wanted to stay with me that night. And overnight, I just woke up at, like, 1:32 in the morning. I had this. Broke out in tears again. I said, I gotta get help. I said, this can't be. I said, I can't be expected to do all this, you know, by myself. So right the next day, I scheduled a call with. I called my superintendent, and I just said, you know, this is what's going on. He's like. He's like, bud, we gotta get you some help. Don't worry about it. We'll get you some help. And then we had a. We called the board president at the time, and he's like, hey, Bud, we'll get you whatever you need. And I was like, it's amazing. I mean, that's it. I.
- [30:40]
John Brucato
That's all it took. I just said, yeah.
- [30:42]
Peter Bard
I'm like, what? You know, I was like, that's it. I'm like, all right. And so we got an accounting firm in to help us on the side, you know, and. And get the books prepared and different things of that nature. And I didn't have to stress out about it. And it was just a, you know, it was just, I didn't tell, I didn't go into the suicidal ideation thing. I just tell them about the struggle I was having and how stressful it was and different things of that nature. You know, I didn't tell. You know, I found. And I got a therapist at Geisinger. We started doing, they had, they were, they were deemed essential personnel. I think in June we started opening back up again because it was like, remember it was March, April, May. So I was already three months into it. They started opening back up again in June and things started clearing back up. And you know, I never stopped going to counseling again. You know, we never stopped going to counseling. I've always kept a counselor on my file. I've always, you know, there was periods of time I don't go, but there's always when I feel good, but I've always had someone on call that I could just pick up the phone and call. Right. And so I guess the moral of this particular story is if you're struggling at work and you need some help and you're not as a business manager and a leader, struggling with mental health and struggling with your periods of, of different things, speak up as to what your struggles are. Tell your superintendent of what you are struggling with in particular. And just, it's not, you'll be surprised, I think, as to what, what your reaction will be, right. If they really care about your growth, if they really care about you as a, as a professional, you'll be, you'll be surprised. And if you're, if you're wrongly surprised and they don't care, then you know that you need to look for another position because there are going to be a million, I think superintendents are going to look for you, look at you and say, we'll get you the help you need. Whether it's. Or we'll look at getting you, or we'll look at structuring things differently or work for support. And even when the school board had, when the school board had the meeting and I was sitting there and we talked about what they need, all nine board members, and we didn't, I didn't have a non supportive board. And they were all like, okay, no problem. I was like, incredible. All this nonsense that, I mean, not nonsense, but all this worry and those.
- [32:55]
John Brucato
Castles you built up in your head, maybe some of them didn't need to be there, right?
- [32:58]
Peter Bard
They didn't and that's the thing. And I think that's what a lot of people do and the stigma that goes along with this and this is where I get to the other part of the stigma. When I, when I finally talked to the superintendent at Crestwood about my mental health problem that I was going through, he mentioned to me, and this is where I got the stigma part about, he said, you know, he said I wouldn't tell. He said, he said to me, he didn't mean in a negative way. He just said, I don't know if I would tell too many people about it. He said, because the mental health could hold you back. I'm like, I don't know, I don't know exactly what you mean. He says, well, because sometimes it looks that as a weakness because a lot of the business managers have to have egos and have to have these different things to, to drive you forward. And I said, well, and that's where you go. When you said about being know, vulnerable to, to, to say your story. And I'm like, well, Bobby, I said I was having mental problems. You know, his name was Bobby. So I, I, I put his name out there. I said Bobby. But you have to understand something. When you're vulnerable, I think you're letting people in and seeing you for who you are so you're not throwing up some fakeness. I said, I could fake being, you know, an A accountant or an A plus operations manager, but then where I could BS my way through any type of meeting and throw wart salads together, sure. But if I don't have the meat and the potatoes behind those type of things, it'll fall apart just like the cards. So I think the same thing with my mental health. I could put an ego together and be the most powerful speaker, but if I'm mentally not there or mentally falling apart behind the scenes, what good is it for anybody? So I think it's important that we look at that through those type of lenses. So I don't know. And I also think, I mean, I'm not saying you go out to your, your staff and you know, spill your, your Right, right. Or yeah, but I think it's important that you look at yourself as a business manager and say, am I okay? Do I need to take breaks? Do I need to take, you know, these breathers, vacations, sick time, personal time and get yourself the space that you need away from the office to, to breathe, to, to, to relax to. We live in a very pressure filled, quote, pressure cooker world.
- [35:05]
John Brucato
Right?
- [35:06]
Peter Bard
And the last part of my presentation, John, was about using your sick time and your, your, your accrual time and your paid time off.
- [35:13]
John Brucato
That's what it's there for.
- [35:15]
Peter Bard
Yeah, I, I, I value that more than I value salary that's a little bit higher than salary for me because of my mental health. Because, because I think getting out and getting into different space time, getting out to just being home, being able to take a drive, being able to space myself out from the office space is just a little more important. I, I know people sometimes, and maybe you've known some people, John, in the business that will say, I have 400 some sick days I can cash in, or 250 sick days I can cash in for my daily rate and have a nice little chunk of change when I retire. Yeah, but at what cost? I mean, you said that, and you.
- [35:51]
John Brucato
Said that perfectly in the article. At what cost? I mean, what is, you know, if you have all that built up, and I know so many people, and this is not necessarily mental health related, but just health in general. I know so many people that have busted their butts throughout their entire career, have accumulated all this, this time, only to find out that they're sick or they, they die a year or two after retirement. It's like, why, why, what does it matter? Like, enjoy what you have now, you know?
- [36:15]
Peter Bard
Yeah. And I'm not saying spend every single one of your days.
- [36:18]
John Brucato
Of course not. Of course not.
- [36:19]
Peter Bard
Because you should have some saved up in case you do have, heavens forbid, an illness or something you got to take care of at home or if your wife gets, you know, if your wife or loved one gets pregnant and you need to stay out or whatever, or you need, you know, you want to take a maternity leave if you're, if you're a female, you know, and you need time because, you know, we're the only country in the, in the civilized world doesn't have paid maternity leave. Don't get me started.
- [36:40]
John Brucato
We'll do a different episode on that.
- [36:41]
Peter Bard
Yeah, we could do an episode on that too, you know, but. Because that's something, I think we should have paid parental leave for both males and females. But I think, you know, we want to have that. You need to have those times where you can take some time and take some space away to do that. And I think I, I just, you know, in your mental health, like, I'm in a much better spot now on medication with therapy, but, but even my mental health, even like the past four or five weeks, you know, I had struggles and I Had to get through them and I had to find use different ways that I coped that I've learned through my therapy over the last 10 years, going through the therapies and stuff like that. And so I'm not, I think I'm pretty confident saying that I'll probably never get into those dark spaces again. But you never know. But at least I know that I have support systems. And that's where I think ASBO International and pasbo, the Pennsylvania association comes in. Because those guys and gals that help you out with all these different things. Things when you post, like when you post a question on. On PASBO link or ASBO International and you see all these people that help you or reach out on the side and privately, I mean it's incredible. And that's why. Another reason why I wanted to reach out and do the presentation and the article. So going back to your very first question, I mean I think it's giving back to the, to the associations that have helped me in the last eight years. So like when I needed help on even an accounting equation or something or an accounting topic or something like that, it's just, I mean to have these people just be on your. To be helping to help you on a whim, it's just amazing. And I don't think you can, you could say enough about, you know, what the, what these associations do for me and the support that I've gotten. I don't think these people really know, especially in the Pennsylvania association, how much they've helped me and pulled me back from bad spots or bad, you know, falling into darkness again when just helping me with difficult spots and difficult questions that I've posed. Even like I said, Bobby saw who's, you know, helped me with a lot of different questions that I've asked him. And in the, in the, in the, in the. In this eight years I've been a business manager and you know, I got hired, you know, when I got hired, I didn't have any experience the business office. So somebody took a shot at me. And I still stay in touch with a few of those board members from the first district that took a shot at me and to be know in the spot I am. So I think the moral, the really the moral of this entire story is, listen, anybody can suffer with it. Anybody can look on the surface like they're doing phenomenal, but not everyone is doing phenomenal. And so just to be kind, to be caring and to always, you know, always participate in the life of not only your school district or Your schools, but also the life of the larger organizations because you never know who you're helping out and who you're. Who you're. Who may need help and whatnot. So I think that's really what the core of my article is and I hope I came across.
- [39:33]
John Brucato
Oh, absolutely. You know, it sounds like you've. You've been blessed with a strong support structure that you've built over many years. I have to imagine that you've run into people that may lack the empathy and understanding of mental health and wellness. Has that happened? And if so, how were you able to deal with those individuals that may have kind of brush it off as like just get over it or something like that?
- [39:56]
Peter Bard
I. I have, but not. I've been able to help them understand that it's not just a, you know, you're having a bad day, you know. Right. Like that song that plays. I forget the name, who sings the song, but you're having a bad day. You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [40:10]
John Brucato
They play Jason Mraz, I think.
- [40:11]
Peter Bard
Jason Mraz. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have a bad day or whatever.
- [40:14]
John Brucato
Yeah.
- [40:15]
Peter Bard
It's one of those things where it's not just a bad day and you try to get them to have sympathy and empathy towards. Towards that. I think sometimes you have to understand and I. When, when you, when you come across people in your day to day in your district where you seem like they're never having a bad day, you start to wonder if they're just hiding it because everybody has a bad day. So I wonder. So when I come across those people, I just have, I have empathy for them and I just say it. So it's okay not to understand it, but you know, it's. I try to explain to them what that exactly I'm having. If they have the time to listen and if they don't understand, then it's one of those things where you just shake the dust off your feet, move on. You're off the sandals of your feet, move on.
- [40:59]
John Brucato
Right.
- [40:59]
Peter Bard
Because it's not worth worrying about those particular people. Now if those particular people are your supervisors, then you just have to remember that there's. You know, In Pennsylvania there's 500 other school, 499 other school districts. There are.
- [41:12]
John Brucato
Are. Right.
- [41:13]
Peter Bard
And there's. You're going to find people that are more empathetic and sympathetic for you. Because I like, I found in the district that I worked in in 2020 that there was a lot of sympathetic people that were in. Empathetic people that kind of understood the world. I Think you'll find though that 99 or 98% of the people understand the world. And, and I think we're getting to the point where everybody kind of understands it now, but back in the day, there was nobody that really understood it. Like when I was growing up, nobody really understand bullying or harassment, even if you want to call it bullying. If you just want to call it persistent harassment.
- [41:47]
John Brucato
Well, as a 90s kid, myself, I can relate.
- [41:51]
Peter Bard
Yeah, no, it's one of those things where, like, I didn't tell anybody about it. So I can't, I'm not blaming anybody for, I'm not blaming. Right. It was just the teachers or the coaches. Like, I don't even blame the coach at the time because the coach at the time didn't know what he was, what he was dealing with.
- [42:03]
John Brucato
Right.
- [42:04]
Peter Bard
You know, and so it's not that, you know, looking back on it and, you know, I, I loved baseball at the time too. He kind of crushed my spirit in baseball. But yeah, it doesn't mean that, you know, and he kind of crushed the way I developed self esteem to this day. So I'm not like, I hate myself now or anything like that.
- [42:19]
John Brucato
Right, right.
- [42:21]
Peter Bard
You know, I, I don't have the same maybe self esteem I may have had, you know, when I was, if I had a better elementary school upbringing. But once again, it is what it is. I don't. You can, you can't live in the past either. So, sure, you know, it is what it is when it comes to that type of thing.
- [42:36]
John Brucato
But did you, did you find that, you know, as you were working through therapy and psychologists, did it take a while to find the right one? Because I think a lot of times people think that, oh, therapy isn't for me. I went once and it didn't work out. Did it take you a couple tries to find the right therapist that really clicked with you?
- [42:58]
Peter Bard
Yes, it did. And actually when you lose the right, like. So I had, I had a really good therapist and then he retired. So then I had to restart the process again and then I found another person that was good and we kind of didn't work out because of scheduling, because of work and different things of that nature. So I'm actually on my fifth or sixth one now. So.
- [43:17]
John Brucato
Okay.
- [43:17]
Peter Bard
Yeah, you do have to find. So just because you go to one, it doesn't work out. You always could always try somebody different because there's so many different ones and you can always, you always search and you always find which ones that work out the best for you. And also, you know, you may be constricted to what your insurance covers too. So because I've heard some, some psychologists don't take insurances. Some most do, some don't. So, you know, you may find yourself paying a hundred and some dollars because your insurance doesn't cover it and then maybe the one you like. So you have to plan, you know, you have to plan accordingly with that as well. So yeah, you have to, it's trial by error similar. And also the same thing with medication I'm on. This is my fourth different try with an antidepressant and the third different dosage with an antidepressant. So just because the first one didn't work doesn't mean you tell the doctor to stop or you stop cold turkey on your own because that has disastrous effects as well. So you have to have patience and you have to trust the process with your doctor and you have to continue to go to the doctor and trust that process. So same thing with therapists, same thing with your medication as well.
- [44:28]
John Brucato
Well, Peter, in closing here, what message would you like to leave with our listeners regarding mental health and professional life and striking that balance?
- [44:37]
Peter Bard
The most important thing is in your career. You're in, you have to be dedicated to the career. Career. You have to really put your, your, your heart into it and your soul into it. But at the same time, you have to remember that your heart and soul is also going to be with your, your personal life too, because there's a, that exists outside of work. And, and you know, if you were to die tomorrow, your po, you know, if you were to fall over dead from a heart attack tomorrow, your job will be post within 24 hours. So they're going to cry for you, but they're going to move on. So I think.
- [45:06]
John Brucato
Right. The world moves on.
- [45:08]
Peter Bard
Yeah, the world moves on. So you want to know, you want to be remembered and you're going to be remembered more by your family and friends. So I think that's the most important thing that I would tell people to remember and that the way you feel about yourself is just as equally as important or if not more important than what other people feel or what your board members feel or how your superintendent feels about you or your bosses feel. So I think taking care of yourself is, should be your primary concern because you're never going to be, no matter how much heart and soul you put in your job, if your heart isn't correct and your soul is incorrect and your mind isn't correct because you're struggling internally, you're never going to be the best business officer, business manager you can possibly be. And I've learned that from my personal experience. And I'm just saying that from the heart that you know, you're important, but your whole being is important, not just your professional professional being, but also your personal being.
- [46:03]
John Brucato
Peter, thank you so much for sharing your story today. It was such a pleasure and honor to have you on. And again, just being so vulnerable. I know people get a lot out of this. And make sure you give Oliver an extra treat tonight when you go home.
- [46:15]
Peter Bard
Oh, absolutely, I will. I'll tell him he was a good boy and I'll give him an extra treat. And thank you for having me. And I hope this helps.
- [46:22]
John Brucato
Thank you for tuning in to School Business Insider. Make sure to check back each week. Your favorite topics on school business.