School Business Insider: “Building Up, Not Out: New Approaches to School Facilities”

Host: John Brucato
Guests: Kurt Peters and Matt McGregor, Hoffman Planning, Design and Construction, Inc.
Date: October 14, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode explores the growing trend of vertical (multi-story) school design as an innovative solution for districts facing land constraints, escalating construction costs, and evolving educational needs. Host John Brucato welcomes guests Kurt Peters and Matt McGregor to discuss the "vertical advantage," highlight practical case studies (notably the Tomorrow River School District), and offer actionable insights for district leaders considering building up rather than out.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Rethink School Facilities Design?

• Land and Budget Constraints:
  • Many school districts are encountering limited land for expansion and budget crunches, making traditional sprawling campuses less viable.

    “School districts are seeing budget crunches across the board as well. So, they're looking...for an economical way to provide education.” – Matt McGregor [03:39]

• Consolidation Needs:
  • Ongoing consolidation pressures are prompting districts with multiple sites to consider single-site solutions.

    “Some school districts that have multiple sites… looking to consolidate onto one site.” – Kurt Peters [04:17]

2. What Is the “Vertical Advantage”?

• Efficiency & Land Use:
  • Vertical expansion reduces the building footprint, preserving outdoor spaces for athletics, parking, and other uses.

    “Building up two stories did save quite a lot of footprint on the site itself.” – Kurt Peters [05:55]

• Simplified Safety and Operations:
  • Fewer entry points, streamlined circulation, and improved ability to segment different grade levels contribute to a safer, more manageable campus.

    “You might be able to create a middle school wing or high school wing where they're kind of in their own area.” – Matt McGregor [06:07] “Reducing the amount of entry points...using vertical circulation as a way of segmenting the building and creating those safety checkpoints…” – Kurt Peters [06:58]

3. Addressing Rising Construction Costs

• Structural and Futureproofing Considerations:
  • It's important to assess if the existing structure can support additional floors; if not, demolition and rebuilding may be necessary.
  • New builds can be designed for future upward expansion, such as pre-emptively sizing foundations and mechanical systems.

  “They did not have the infrastructure...of building up on that current structure...we had the capacity to look at it and say, ‘hey, do we want to build up further in the future?’” – Matt McGregor [08:23]

4. Design Language and School Culture

• Connecting New and Existing Spaces:
  • Blending modern additions with older buildings requires deliberate attention to design language, wayfinding, and communal spaces.

    “We definitely take a lot of pride in looking at the entire school and coming up with a solution that fits the school.” – Kurt Peters [12:00]

  • Comprehensive facilities assessments can align upgrades with broader visions and avoid piecemeal results.

    “We did a facilities assessment ahead of time...meeting with the community, staff, students, walking through the spaces…” – Kurt Peters [15:48]

5. Enhancing Learning Environments

• Promoting Collaboration and Flexibility:
  • Vertical schools can incorporate collaboration spaces, flexible learning environments, and creative uses of vertical circulation, e.g., learning stairs.

    “Creating some of these collaboration spaces that maybe tie the two levels together and incorporating technology into that…” – Kurt Peters [18:25] “The opportunity to do some sort of a learning stair...creating space off of that for students to drop down, use their tablet, and collaborate in smaller groups.” – Matt McGregor [20:51]

6. Facilities & Maintenance Considerations

• Operational Efficiencies:
  • Vertical layouts centralize mechanical systems and minimize long internal travel distances, making maintenance and cleaning more efficient.

    “You're able to consolidate that into one space or maybe two spaces...from a maintenance standpoint, just being able to work in one space and not have to walk across the school…” – Kurt Peters [22:37]

7. Case Studies & Real-World Examples

• Tomorrow River School District:
  • Example of consolidating spaces, creating a vertical STEM addition, and refocusing entry and admin areas.

    “...did do a STEM addition that, you know, went up vertically two stories. But the rest of the scope...we're impacting the entire footprint of the school itself.” – Kurt Peters [12:00]

• The Heights by BIG (Bjarke Ingels Group):
  • Urban multi-story school with fanned terraces and creative outdoor spaces.

    “They...had a four or five story school that combined two different school entities...created some outdoor terrace spaces...” – Kurt Peters [23:17]

8. Community and Code Considerations

• Engagement and Approvals:
  • Early and inclusive community conversations are crucial, as neighbors and local officials may have concerns about building heights or impacts.

    “Having them be part of the conversation early on…those are some of the items that get brought up.” – Kurt Peters [25:12]

• Zoning and Ordinances:
  • Local codes and community expectations can limit the number of stories or location of amenities.

9. Common Concerns with Vertical Design

• Elevators & Accessibility:
  • Concerns about cost, safety, access, and supervision with elevators and stairwells.

    “Every time you say two floors, it's always elevator because everybody knows they're like $100,000 or more…” – Kurt Peters [26:30] “Are we spending money on stairwells? And it's kind of a dead non-educational space.” – Matt McGregor [27:00]

• Supervision, Wayfinding & Safety:
  • Need to strategically design sight lines for supervision, clear evacuation routes, and the ability to cordon off floors if needed.

    “Making sure people that are in the building understand how to get in and out of it and have clear directionality with that.” – Kurt Peters [27:56]

10. Budget and Long-Term Financials

• Cost Efficiencies Over Time:
  • While foundation and structural costs may be higher up front, centralizing mechanical, plumbing, and electrical systems can yield operational savings.

    “You're going to be able to put [the foundation] in place once…then you're not building it multiple times if you're going up…” – Matt McGregor [30:25]

• Aging Infrastructure Considerations:
  • Often, the most efficient approach is to build new vertical additions adjacent to legacy buildings rather than retrofitting old foundations.

11. Practical Steps and Recommendations for Districts

• Early Assessments and Community Engagement:
  • Begin with a facilities assessment, form a clear program of needs, and engage staff, students, and the community early.

    “Getting all those conversations out early, getting the community involved, staff, students...” – Kurt Peters [37:48]

• Scenario Planning:
  • Be willing to examine many options, prioritize district needs, and clearly communicate findings to stakeholders.

    “We looked at 17 options here…some things were completely, you know, didn't fit us at all. But hey, we still looked at it and considered it…” – Kurt Peters [39:45]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the fundamental need for new approaches:

  “Some of these buildings have been around for a long, long time…sprawling campuses...may not be the most safe and efficient way anymore.” – Matt McGregor [03:39]

• On blending old and new:

  “We definitely take a lot of pride in looking at the entire school and coming up with a solution that fits the school.” – Kurt Peters [12:00]

• On the challenge of design cohesion:

  “As soon as you step outside of that area, it's like, oh, it feels like the old school again…a learning lesson for us.” – John Brucato [13:57–17:39]

• On learning environments:

  “When we're designing a vertical school [we focus on] creating some of these collaboration spaces that maybe tie the two levels together…a breakout space for some of the classrooms.” – Kurt Peters [18:25]

• On safety and supervision:

  “When you're building up, to make sure you're looking at your sight lines. Are you able to see from the first level up to the second level…what are the important sight lines that you want to remain open?” – Kurt Peters [27:13]

• On budgeting and construction phasing:

  “We try to have those difficult conversations with school districts...phasing at Amherst or Tomorrow River was the electrical gear…a year plus out and it continues to be so.” – Matt McGregor [36:30]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and guest introductions: [00:01–03:19]
• The “vertical advantage” and Tomorrow River case: [04:37–06:07]
• Safety considerations in vertical schools: [05:55–07:42]
• Rising construction costs and infrastructure planning: [07:42–09:20]
• Design language and maintaining cohesion: [10:33–13:57]
• In-depth on learning environments and outdoor spaces: [18:09–20:45]
• Facilities/maintenance design efficiencies: [22:23–23:02]
• Notable real-world examples and code considerations: [23:02–26:04]
• Concerns and challenges with vertical design: [26:04–30:06]
• Budget, infrastructure, and future-proofing: [30:06–31:55]
• Phasing and construction logistics: [34:39–36:30]
• Practical advice for districts starting to plan: [37:48–40:29]
• Prioritizing district goals and needs: [40:29–41:12]

Final Takeaways & Practical Advice

• Start early, with broad engagement: Conduct detailed facilities assessments and include community, staff, and student voices.
• Weigh diverse options and plan for flexibility: Examine horizontal and vertical options, plan infrastructure for future needs, and remain open to out-of-the-box solutions.
• Prioritize design integration: Avoid piecemeal renovations that disrupt school cohesion and aesthetics.
• Anticipate operational/safety impacts: Factor in maintenance efficiency and thoughtful safety planning in vertical environments.
• Set clear priorities: Decide early what the district values most in a project—be it STEM facilities, safety upgrades, or community spaces.