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School Business Insider
Different Paths, Shared Lessons: Early Leadership as a School Business Official
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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to asbo international's school business insider. I'm your host, john brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to School Business Insider. Today's episode is all about the early years of school business leadership, what it's really like to step into the role of an assistant superintendent for business, especially when you come from very different professional backgrounds. I'm joined today by John Fink, assistant Superintendent for business at Cornwall Central School District, who entered the role from an instructional background, and Chris Carballo, assistant Superintendent for business at Highland Falls Fort Montgomery, who came from private sector finance and marketing, and who also happens to be a former intern of mine while earning his SBO license. We'll talk candidly about mentorship, work, family balance, building a healthy business office culture, navigating collegial relationships, and the difference between planned systematic change and the unforeseen challenges that inevitably arise in your first few years as an sbo. John and Chris, welcome to the podcast. Happy to have you guys.
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B
How you doing, John?
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A
Doing great.
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C
Thanks for having us.
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B
John and John. John and John.
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A
Yeah, yeah. Happy to have both of two of my good friends here in the business. And today should be a fruitful conversation. So why don't we jump right into it? You know, as I said in the intro, John, you came into the role as an SBO from an instructional background. What motivated that transition for you? And, you know, reflecting back on it, what surprised you most early on? Not really having that traditional business experience.
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C
So interesting, John, that you asked that question, because the motivation, I guess, started maybe a long time ago. When I got my certification, I started out as a math teacher. And when I applied for that math certification, I looked at the qualifications for SBO at the time, and it was simply just I paid for the additional certification and thought, maybe down the road, I'll jump into that. And then fast forward, you know, almost 20 years into education, the opportunity presented itself. The superintendent uncovered that I had the certification.
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A
Scrambling for somebody.
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C
Correct. And people with certifications were few and far between. And she said, you know, you want to jump in on an interim basis and check it out, you know, test, test, test the waters. And there was obviously some pros and cons in terms of my approach, but having that instructional background and knowing that that Particular school district was beneficial for me and for her at that time. So the motivation was the opportunity to learn something new. And actually, you know, I have two young boys, and I was showing them, you know, it's never too late to learn and. And to dive into something and take some risks. And that's really what started that whole series for me.
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A
That's great. When you first started, was it a tough transition coming out of the building into the district office? I mean, a lot of the administrators that I talked to that were teachers or principals really miss having kind of that daily interaction with kids. Was that a big adjustment for you getting into the business office?
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C
It was, but at the same time, I was ready and willing to try something else, and. And I didn't have a lot of time to think about it. Of course I miss kids. I was an assistant principal, principal, teacher, you know, like that connection. But the cognitive level that I was operating at on a daily basis was incredible. So, you know, I didn't have time to think about what I was missing because I was so focused on. I don't want to miss anything here on the business side.
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A
Yeah. And, Chris, you came from a very different path. I mean, I'm curious, how did you even know that school business officials existed? Because I. I didn't really know either, coming from the private sector originally. So what drew you into school business and what was kind of the most unfamiliar aspect of the job? Just coming from a totally different realm and career path.
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B
Right. So we can be totally candid here. Right. So I can be told I can tell the truth.
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A
Oh, yeah, yeah. Unfiltered.
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B
Right. So it was. So I was on what they call a garden leave in the private sector. Right. I been, I guess, you know, resource actioned out of a company, and they gave me some nice dollars to go away and not work for anybody who was a competitor. And I had something else lined up that was. That was basically like summer of 2019, and I had about, you know, six months on that and said, oh, yeah, great. So then by February of 2020, I had something else lined up. A whole nice new role in the whole business management marketing world, and like, a whole different area. And then everyone's favorite Covid showed up, and that role, shall we say, evaporated. That company actually ended up, like, laying off 2,000 people. So it was just really unpleasant. But so, you know, I'm sitting there kind of, like, a little frustrated, still kind of happy that I was maybe not having to go to work every single day. And my brother is an excellent Latin teacher in Ardsley. Okay. And I was literally having a beer with him over Zoom sometime in like March or April of 2020, you know, and he's like, well, you know, if you don't really want to go back to the whole business management thing, there is this role in school districts. It's called a, like he said, it's like a good business official. They like, you know, they do some of the numbers because, you know, he's a teacher, he didn't know really exactly what we do.
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A
Sure.
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B
And I was like, what are you talking about? And a couple of, you know, Internet searches and talking to the person who actually does this role in my children's district down in Rye. We. I was like, okay, this is interesting. You know, I had my mba, I'd run businesses for a long time, and I was looking for a change anyway. And you know, 18 months later, I'm sitting in your office as your intern, John. So that's kind of how that worked out. So thank you for that. But, you know, the transition was from the standpoint of like, organizational stuff and business management and all that, and, you know, being able to deal with budgets and numbers and stuff, that wasn't too tough. I think some of the challenge really was, you know, there's so much more regulation on a public sector space than there really is in private. And there's plenty in private, don't get me wrong. There's lots of things you got to make sure you do on the right side of the law and the rules and everything. But there's so many things like, hey, get this in by this date. Make sure this happens by this time, and all those things have to fall into place. That was a little bit of a sort of a new thing to deal with. But and also on the other side of it, culturally, let's put it this way, I was told, I think my second week in the private sector when I was like 22 years old, if you send me another thank you email, I'm going to come in here and blah, blah, blah, by this like 28 year old business manager, right? He was like, chartered apartment here. And I love my district. The people are wonderful. But I get so many, like, hey, thanks for the info. Hey, that was great that I'm like.
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A
Oh, my gosh, plug in your inbox, my man.
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B
Oh, yeah. The culture of that, that like. And you know, what is. It's so wonderful in a way because, you know, you're just like, you feel human, really collegial, and everybody's really kind of very friendly and good about stuff. But I'm also like, I have a lot of emails that I don't, I don't need to open, but I have to open them.
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A
Right, right, right.
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B
It's just a different cultural thing. And, you know, I, I think I've adapted to it a little bit. I still, you know, the thank you text back or no back is always a little weird for me, but I'll deal with it.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little more touchy feely, I guess, in the purpose.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So I, I'm curious, I want to follow up on something you said about just the increased regulations and things that we have to file. Do you find that, Is that a blessing, a curse? A little bit of both. Because I feel like with new business officials starting out, at least you have some guardrails and what you have to do. But at the same point, if you don't know what you're looking for, you could miss those deadlines. So what was kind of your experience going from private sector to your point? There's rules and regulations, but so much more heavily regulated in the public sector.
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B
I think I'd key in exactly what you said. Right. Having those guardrails is key.
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A
Right.
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B
It helps you keep on the straight and narrow so that you are in the right space. It adds a little bit different kind of stress though. Right. Because you're like, oh my God, if I miss the. I'm making it up, you know, September 1st deadline for my ST3 or whatever it might be. Right.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, the whole world's going to explode.
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A
Well, it doesn't. Having done this for 10 years, it's okay.
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B
Right, Right. But usually most of the things it doesn't. Right. That's the key thing. But honestly, it's. And I think we talk about it, maybe we'll talk about it later. But like, you can't be proud about reaching out to your network. You can't, you can't just be like, hey, I know the whole job and I've got it figured out. You're three, four months in and maybe John will feel the same way. Like you're just like, yeah, I think I know what I'm talking about. But you maybe know 20% of what you need to know and you're never gonna get to 100, so you just gotta be willing to pick up that Questar phone call or pick up a colleague that you met at a ASBO conference or something and just say, hey, listen, I'm trying to work on this Thing is it really due on the 15th or not? And what's really behind it? So that kind of fast forward, your ability to kind of stay on top of it.
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A
Yeah. So I want to share a quick story before I want you to share the stories of when you know, the first few months on the job. But when I started out as a school business official, I knew next to nothing. I could barely explain in New York State, we had the tax cap. Could barely muscle my way through how to explain that. So I don't know why the district that hired me took a chance on me. But regardless, it was. It was a blessing looking back on it. But I remember my first. I started in August, and I remember sitting in my office late at night in November fielding angry parent phone calls because I didn't have a transportation director. And when I had started in the job, I said, well, the assistant superintendent for finance and operations. I didn't really think so much operations. I was thinking it was more numbers. But I remember being just yelled at all the time, every day, all day, because transportation was such a nightmare. And I'm like, what the hell have I done? This is not the job I thought it was. I'm like, this is not for me. And I'm glad I stuck it out. Obviously, here I am a decade later. But that was such a. An unexpected experience in the role was just getting just lambasted by parents because, you know, students were showing up late or if buses weren't arriving on time, if at all. It was just an absolute nightmare. So I only tee that up because I'm wondering what your first few months were like. So, Chris, why don't you kick us off? What was your experience when you got into the role.
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B
Again? Drinking out of a fire hose. Right. So there's some of that. I actually think, you know, I do have a bit of a. I have an mba, of course, and all that kind of stuff. But like, I was always more on the business management side of stuff. So the operational stuff, the dealing with unhappy people and all that kind of stuff, that was an easy part for me. Yeah. Like, I've been in like, my previous world was in like consumer marketing and consumer product, you know, management. So I've been in the room at Walmart in Bentonville when the buyer is like yelling at you and had you waiting there for 45 minutes for no good reason. So I've dealt with that kind of thing. That was easier for me. It was more like, well, you know, the deeper nuance of how the projection of this financial Whatever, whatever. I'm like, yeah, I can do that, but that's going to take me a little extra energy. Right. So that was like, I got to put a couple extra hours in and make sure I'm analyzing my numbers. Right. And, you know, maybe that's why God created AI now. And we can have him do that for me, but I'll get there.
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A
Exactly.
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B
But, you know, that was what it was for me, right. It was like just balancing it out and dealing with, again, that culture change I talked about. But as well as just like, to your point, there's two sides of this job, right? There's the operation on the finance, and some of us are going to be stronger on one end versus the other. I think the reality is you just kind of have to muscle through the part that you're not quite so good at. Right. In the beginning.
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A
Right. Right. John, how about you? I mean, you had more exposure than Chris and I did to just the school environment. But what was your first few months like now, actually sitting in the seat?
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C
Yeah. Chrissy mentioned some funny stuff like drinking from a fire hose. 1,000%. And actually still, you know, four years in, there are still days where it's like, it's unreal. But actually, funny story, John. And I don't know if you remember when I was transitioning and I went to ASBO's SBMW, okay. And they wanted me to just sit through courses and I sat there like a deer in headlights. I had, you know, no idea in this world. And I went to the first workshop. Was you and Brady doing forecasting?
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A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
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C
And I remember being like, I need to do this. I need to get a, you know, a forecast for our district. We've never had anything like that. I want to do this. And I talked to you at the end, but part of that was you had shared being you, your humility in that experience. And I was like, okay, I can talk to this guy. And I did. I went up and talked to you right after. But you shared some of your being a new business official and what it's like. And I'm like, okay, so I'm not on. I'm not on, you know, John Fink island. On a planet of my own, being a new guy here. So. So, yeah. And I think Chris really hammered some things home, you know, personality wise, navigating some of that, you know, being in the district was helpful. You know, people knew who I was. You know, I had a number of years there, so they knew they could trust me. But then doing the analytical side of the finances and finally saying, yeah, I'm confident in my numbers here. You know, it's taken me a lot longer than I would would want it to, but I really know I don't want to mess up. And so making sure my confidence was there and maybe having some eyes double check, that was important.
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A
Yeah. I had a similar experience too, starting out. When I started, I was in western New York with a bunch of veteran school business officials, and they had been doing it for a very long time. So from me on the outside looking in, everybody had, you know, their stuff together and everything was, was humming along and I was like, am I the only one that started out this way? But as you, as you begin to learn people and in their trajectory and everything, people had to start from somewhere. And it always is kind of the drinking from a fire hose. I mean, I equate my first year as a school business official. I don't, I don't know if you know that meme with the dog sitting in the kitchen and everything's on fire around him and his caption's like, this is fine. That's kind of how my whole first year was. It was just a disaster. But you get through it. You find the people that have shared a similar experience and just make it a little bit more manageable on, on your end. So, you know, I. Chris, you talked a little bit about mentorship as, as you kind of started to both of you, how has mentorship really played a role for you in your first few years and maybe even now, how has that helped you kind of cement yourself as, as a school business official? So, John, why don't we. We start with you?
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C
Yeah. So I think when I jumped in as an interim to start my insistence on having a mentor to help me, because, I don't know, I didn't know anything. And the superintendent was like, absolutely, we probably couldn't do this without. So I had a retired business official working with me for really almost two years, loosely, tightly, depending on what the need was, but always having that availability. And his recommendation right off the bat was get connected to your local business officials, which I did so very. Victor Carlson. I'm going to shout him out. You know, I annoyed him probably on a weekly basis, and he was gracious. And then that led to other business officials, which was fantastic, and people being really gracious. Because you've mentioned on the podcast before, we're not in competition, so there's no harm, there's no shame, there's no foul in sharing our information. And making each other's lives easier. So, yeah, you know, having that mentor was huge. And now being able to talk, you know, you mentioned you had no transportation director. Chris. I met Chris recently and he shared with me. I had no payroll, and it's like these unforeseen circumstances, my life.
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A
Yeah. Like.
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C
Like, how do I navigate that?
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A
Right.
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C
So we. You just talk about it. Right. Because, you know, I'm sure we'll get into that later on. But I think looking out and I say, see some brand new SBOs coming in. Right. Someone from the instructional side and someone from the business side and just saying, hey, if there's anything I can do, you know, I start, I was just like you not too long ago. And I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I'm willing to try to give you anything to make your life easier.
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A
I had a similar setup when I had first started because I think the district would have imploded financially if they just left it to me. So I had a really great retired sbo. Did you have a moment where you're like, I have this now. I don't need to rely on this individual because you've been through a cycle or two. Did you have that moment where it was like, oh, I'm good. I don't need a full time mentor anymore.
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C
I don't know if I'll ever feel that way, honestly, because, you know, like, Gatsby throws something at you, you know, like. Like what? Like, somebody help me out. Like, I'm never gonna say I'm good. There's no way.
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A
I appreciate the humility. Like.
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C
Like, do I get more comfortable budgeting? Yeah, there's different things I'm more comfortable with, but at the same time, you know, someone's going to throw something out in a meeting, and then I'm going to go, oh, man, I don't know anything about that. You know, I haven't done anything about that.
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A
That's awesome. And Chris, how about you? I mean, you know, I'm sure mentorship was important.
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B
Mentorship was hugely important. And again, I'll thank you, Mr. Bricado. Right. Because I think I probably had you on speed dial. I might still actually, occasionally. You don't answer as quickly now. And I do think I know what I'm doing, which I don't, but never mind.
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A
Well, I'm like, he's fine. He doesn't need me. He'll figure it out.
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B
He'll figure it out. A couple days. No, all seriousness, no, like yourself, I also, again, my district Gave me a mentor as well, which was great, experienced business official by the name of Joe Lenz, who, you know, he, he was in the role here for a short period of time, ended up taking another opportunity in, in the county, and then he's actually now a superintendent over at Pine Bush, so congrats to him. But, you know, Joe was always great, too. The same kind of thing. Put in a call as, you know, right in the room kind of with me, or as, you know, just a phone call away kind of thing as needed initially. And that does help you kind of feel more comfortable. But I'm, I'm, I'm with, I'm with John, too. You know, it's like at a certain point you got to fly without a net. And you're like, forgive the fourth period ballot that. You just probably heard the. Edit that part out, I guess, John. But like the, you know, at a certain point you go and have to fly without a net. And you're like, yeah, this, this has to actually be figured out and make sure you're straightened up about it. I think I used the word before. But, like, you just can't be proud, though. Go ahead and reach out to those colleagues you talk to. You know, like, John and I are on the same sort of like WhatsApp text string or whatever you call it with other business officials in the county here. And I think we've all put a thing out there like, hey, this is coming down the pipe. I know it's due on like the 15th. Does anybody know what we're doing? I need help.
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A
Is anyone doing this yet?
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B
Right, right. And like, what's, what's nice is at a certain point you are giving answers as much as maybe, maybe not as much as in the early days, but you are starting to be one of the ones like, yeah, I've got a, I've got a version of that you can take a look at. Or, yeah, I did that last year and you can take a look at this thing. Right. So that's helpful. But, you know, to answer your question about when do you think you totally got it and you're kind of rolling. I don't know if that's ever going to happen, really. Right. Because whether it's a GASB or some other regulation or who knows what it is, there's going to be something new and different. You're going to have to take a beat and be like, okay, let me go reach out to my colleagues and did they do this already or do they have some different aspect that could help me out.
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C
Yeah. It's funny, Chris, you mentioned about different people's responses and answers. Some people don't always answer the question that somebody posed, but I always find it helpful that there's other responses out there that might lead you to helping you out.
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A
Right.
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C
So I always try to answer the question right. That's the goal. You should be answering the question. But if your response strays sometimes and you see other people's, you're like, oh, there is some highlight there for me to say, oh, okay, there's other ways to look at this. There's other ways to do this. So, you know, whether that's on the, on a text thread or an email thread or whatever. So I do appreciate the way that that gets communicated.
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B
Very true.
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A
Yeah. And John, you. You talked to this a little bit. You mentioned Victor, who's, who's a great guy, good friend. But who did you, who'd you lean on in your early years? Who did you learn from? Were you cold calling people at the state? Were you calling up different boces? I mean, and then once you establish those relationships, how did that really shape your confidence as a school business official?
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C
Yeah. So again, Victor was one. Questar was also fantastic. I had inherited a budget that was defeated. So what could we do and what couldn't we do? And no, I didn't want to call the state to ask them. So Mike los up at Questar, I still call him to this day because he was the one that by chance picked up the phone at the time. And so I was like, mike, you're my man for the rest of my life right now. And I think I've said that to him.
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B
Right.
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C
And now to this day, you know, had a call with Facilities Planning up at the state, right. And just, just forging relationships and continuing to forge relationships. So now, you know, Facilities Planning knows who I am. And I started the call with like, hey, here's what we're looking at. I don't have all the answers. I need some help. And just talking that through was really like, eye opening for me and I think for the individual on the end of the line who I thought was going to be like the monster from Monsters, Inc. In the library, you know, like, don't be quiet. You know, the character. And, and, and now he couldn't have been more gentle, more cool, more forgiving, more talking through, you know, the preliminary submission, know.
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B
So it was, you know, can I just add a point on that? It's just interesting is I think sometimes especially coming from the outside, like, I Did to sense. Right. Like you hear about the, you know, nysed, right se the Education Department. You think of this just monolithic structure that's only regulations and only red tape. And certainly it has its own, it has those things. But you know what? There is a human being out there that is on the end of a phone somewhere and it can be hard to find them admittedly, but like, you know, hey, I gotta get my, I don't know, make it up. I gotta get my transportation form in the ST3 forms updated and get it to clean or clean with issues before X date. There's somebody who can actually help you with that.
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C
Yeah, right, right.
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B
You do have to make those relationships. You gotta, don't be shy to put the phone call in and just say, hey, you know, I'm Chris Cabal over at Highland Falls. I, I'm doing this for only my second or third time. Help me out a little bit. I'm at this point and there are people and it's not just about, you know, the SC3 and whatever, but it's like, whatever it might be, there's somebody in the back end there, facilities, planning, wherever it is, that there's a human being that is willing to help you. Because look again, coming from the outside and the culture and stuff I kind of half joked about before, I think the best thing about this industry, this culture, is that the. And this is why I really ended up choosing to move into it. It's about helping kids to prepare for their future. And that's a little mushy and whatever. Okay, I'll take that. But like that's a reality. And the cool thing is that I would say so far 99% of the people I've met that do this, regardless of what they look on the outside, deep down, that's what they believe and that's why they're here. And in the end, you can connect with people on that and be like, listen, my district needs this. Just, you know, blah, blah, blah, okay, hey, let me help you out and figure out how you get you there. And that's, that's something that I've really enjoyed in the last three and change years.
- [23:17]
A
Today's episode is brought to you by Daybright Financial, one of the nation's largest independent, privately held firms for benefits and retirement planning. Serving nearly half of US schools. As a proud strategic partner of ASBO International and the chosen third party administrator for Asbo's 403 model plan, Daybright takes the stress out of managing benefits and retirement plans from 403 and 457 plan, administration and employee benefits to compliance, recordkeeping, customer service and enrollment. They handle it all. So school leaders can focus on what matters most. Supporting students and staff with Daybright. It's just that simple. Learn more@daybright.com youm make such a good point. Cause I had a very similar feeling when I started as the state education department being this monolith that I was kind of in fear of. But it really are just people behind a screen always willing to help. So I don't know how I had that revelation, but I think I spoke to somebody at state aid and they were super helpful. I'm like, oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. So then I just started calling and everybody was. Was the same. And I had a very similar experience with everybody at the state and it was super helpful. But Chris, staying with you, you can only learn so much in a year. But I'm interesting when you interested, when you look back on your internship, what did you feel that experience prepared you for? And what were you still kind of needing more of when you started as an sbo?
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B
I think the internship. And I'm not just saying this cause you're on the call, John, you can.
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A
Be brutally honest if you could say it was trash. Air it out now. It's okay.
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B
No, no, seriously speaking.
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C
Worst mental relationship once or twice.
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B
I mean, damn. No, I'm kidding. No, no. But no, I think the internship. And again, I was at the College of St. Rose and unfortunately it's no longer, you know, has a program for that. But you know, I think others I've talked to the same kind of thing. The internship gives you the ability to see that, let's say year. And you do get a good taste of the different pieces you have to work on, right? Something with regulation, this, something with finance, something with capital project, you know, all those little bits and pieces. So you do get a good taste of it all. I think, you know, you get those key actions and what it's like in the real world to some degree. I think what you don't get is you don't really know the unique aspects of the district you're going to be in, right? Unless you're plucked from inside. I think you said, John, you were a teacher initially and then a principal and whatever, and you got into your role in your district. You know, if you. And then again if you move to a new district, then it's like you have that same issue, right? Like, okay, you've known how to do this, whether it's in a different entire world or in a different district. But now you go to ABC District, and it's. Maybe it's big or smaller, maybe it's a different type of district. Maybe it's all these different things that are just, you know, or maybe it looks like the same on paper, but in reality, behind the scenes, the culture there is different for whatever reason, or just they have different challenges. You can't see in the numbers initially, when you look from the outside that I don't know if anybody can prepare you for. And that's when you just kind of have to try and focus, I think, on the stuff you can control and then learn to adapt to those things that come up. You know, like we've talked about it before, but my district, you know, we're unique in the state that we can only tax 7% of our actual land. Right. So because of federal and state ownership, and I love our federal and state connections. They are wonderful, don't get me wrong. But it does stress the ability to kind of increase taxes and do that kind of thing and just be able to get the revenue you're looking for. So that can be a challenge. But that's something you can't necessarily have all the details on from the outside, I think, regardless of how long you're in the. In the sort of at work.
- [26:41]
A
Yeah, it's a great point about especially switching districts, because no matter how long you've been doing this work, you could be doing, trying to accomplish the same goal, but approaching it from a different, very different aspect. And that's what I experienced coming from Kentown upstate in western New York, down to Briarcliffe in Westchester. The job's the same on paper, but we had. The business office here had a very different approach to kind of tackling the same problem. So that was a bit of a culture shift for me. But in that same vein, I think culture is incredibly important in being successful, not just in your own role, but making sure that your business office is successful. John, starting with you, when you first started as the business official, how do you approach building trust with your team? Because you were coming in cold in the sense that you weren't a sitting business official. How did you really approach your team to build that trust?
- [27:34]
C
Yeah. So obviously make some mistakes early on, learn from those mistakes, and then grow. So I think what I had to start doing was meeting with my directors on a regular basis, weekly basis, make sure communication was flowing.
- [27:49]
A
Right.
- [27:51]
C
Not that we couldn't meet outside in terms of Informally. But I needed to formalize it very quickly in terms of what do, what do I need to know, what do you need to know and how do we move forward, what are the issues, concerns, what does the superintendent need to know? And then working with the business office as well, like, what do you need? How can I help you? How can I help support you? So that was kind of the professional side of it that I jumped in on. And then the personal side is something that I try and work on very regularly now with my office here, my previous offices is personally, you know, pause, let's get lunch or I'm buying happy hour, let's go out, you know, after work. Just because I am so grateful for the work that they do on a daily basis within, within the business office here. Like, I can't imagine, you know, working in another environment at this point because I am surrounded by such rock stars who work incredibly hard and don't get paid a lot of money and I rely on them for their accuracy and I trust them as professionals and I speak to them about this and you know, really prying myself out of my office to maybe just chill out in the office in general and chit chat with everybody, which is hard for me because I'm constantly, you know, the moment I'm in, the moment I'm out, I'm just grinding. You know, there's usually no lunch involved whatsoever, just grinding because I want to get as much done as I possibly can.
- [29:18]
A
And so Chris, to you, I mean, John was familiar with the culture at large of school districts and just the nuances associated with public education, but you came from the private sector. Same to you. What was your approach now? Not only coming into a new role as a school business official, but really just a new industry in total.
- [29:38]
B
I think to some degree it's. That's maybe the one thing that isn't different, you know, going from a private sector to a public sector, at least in my experience, is, look, people are people, right? And I think that the top, maybe the number one word I always think about is like, everybody wants to be treated with respect, right? So if you come in and don't act like, hey, I got the big title and here's how it's going to be and whatever. Especially if you're, you know, brand new to the district or brand new to the, to the role, you know, it. People appreciate the fact that you are there. Like, look, yeah, okay, maybe I'm in the office, I gotta sign everything. I'm the one who's got the final Say quote unquote. But the reality is, besides the board and the superintendent, of course, but like the reality is if you're respectful to people, treat them with just normal kindness and understand, like, hey, look, they've got certain skill sets that maybe you don't have, right, that yeah, you're the one who's in the big office and you've got the title. But the reality is you need good people who can do the really harder work to some degree, right? You need that treasurer, that payroll person, those clerical staff that are actually like, you know, helping you get requisitions in and out and whatever it might be, right? All that stuff. And you need to treat the respect for the highly skilled individuals they are. And I think that's a key piece and I think John hit on it too, right? You got to have those contacts with your directors and other reports in general just so that you can have that regular. You know, I set up one on ones with every person who's, who's, you know, those key positions in my, my office. Right. And across the district frankly too, right. Because you got those what they used to call in my old private sector, well, the cross functional connections. Right. Like I don't have anything really, really to do with special education except for all the stacking and making sure the money comes in for that and all that. Right. But you got to have those, you know, I have a monthly connection with our director of special education just to make sure that she and I are on the same page. And you know, if there's something going on that's a change in a placement or something, that that's the thing that we're adjusting for. So I think, you know, again, work respect, letting people, let people know you're going to work with them, not be like that guy out in front telling them, hey, we're all going to attack over the hill together. Meanwhile they're out in the back and they've got no supplies, no ability, no time, and you're hungry. Yeah, that's not working. That's not going to work for anybody. So you gotta work with your team and really work with them. That's my, my sort of recommendation. Somebody coming in new is again, you know, be humble about it. Don't be proud that you got, you know, this cool title or something. Just go out there and say, look, yeah, I'm gonna do this thing as best I can. Like John said, right? You're gonna grind all day straight through, whatever it is, eight to five, whatever, six, whatever our days are, tend to Be longer if you guys are like me and you just do what you got to do, but you also got to take time to be human and, you know, respect people for whatever particular needs they have.
- [32:08]
A
And then what about kind of on the other side of the coin, how did you navigate the relationship with the superintendent and your board and principals? Career educators can be a little. I know I was certainly intimidated stepping into the role where these folks have been in this industry their entire careers. I was a career changer. So not only was I learning the job, I was just learning how to. How the culture was at kind of like the C suite level. What was that like for you, Chris?
- [32:34]
B
So again, I took a little bit of lessons from my old world where I think you got to start from a more formal basis, in my opinion. Right. Like our role is effectively the cfo, COO of a district. Right. You're overseeing all the operations and the finance stuff. So when I've been in similar types of role and I never had a C title back in the old world, my like private sector, but like when I've worked with those senior executives and CEOs and stuff like that, you got to go from a standpoint of formality. Right. It is superintendent so and so or doctor so and so. Right. And that's across the board. If it's someone in educational space or curriculum, instruction, whatever it is. And then as you craft that relationship, maybe you can get a little bit more relaxed. Right? Maybe. Okay. In the three or four person, you know, small cabinet meeting you have, that's when you can. You call the person Mike or Crystal or whatever. Right. But you don't do that in public. And I also think maybe it goes back to the same kind of same fact as I said before, Treat them with respect. Let them know that you understand that what they are is a trained, highly skilled professional that has a craft that they have honed to a given level of expertise and that you respect that and that. Yeah. Okay, you manage the numbers in the back end the budget and make sure all the pos are done correctly and whatever other aspects of our work. It is, but it is their work that's in there and connecting with those students directly. So, hey, you know, they've got to tell us what the right thing is. Right. I, you know, I don't even give my. My team whatever my. Our directors and building leaders. I don't give them like a proposed percentage increase on their budget every year. What I say is, look, how would I know if you need more in math or social Studies or whatever, you have to please come to me and let me know what it is and let's have a conversation about it. Right. And then we'll see if those numbers can come to what we're hoping for. But anyway.
- [34:10]
A
And John, you went from working, I guess I would argue for the superintendent and board to now with what was that transition like for you and how did that change your perspective of what work really goes on? Maybe not necessarily behind the scenes, but behind cabinet doors. Like, what is that like?
- [34:26]
C
Yeah, so like my building level experience was, was in, in the admin role of like, I was never the no guy. I was like, yeah, I was kind of like the yes guy. And yes, we will figure this out. And then coming over to the business office, you kind of take on the no guy role. And you know, I wasn't totally prepared for that. Okay. Let's just put it that way. But I warmed up to that and now I'm trying to cool off of that. Right. So how do I become a good business official? That's not Mr. No Guy. Like, we can make this work. So I really try and operate that. I'm going to, I'm going to make that happen, I think for the superintendent, for the board, for the principals or directors. And coming from the instructional side, I'm a giant pain in their butt because I can talk instructional side. I could argue things.
- [35:18]
A
I secret weapon.
- [35:19]
C
I have some opinions and I, and I will say I have a strong opinion about this, you know, and they're.
- [35:24]
B
Like, oh God, right?
- [35:26]
C
The guy controls money.
- [35:28]
B
Yeah, it's exactly right.
- [35:29]
C
The guy who controls the money has an opinion about something. Right. So, and I've learned to really try to back off that. Right. Just, you know, Chris, I'm with you. Like, I don't want to get involved in their day to day operations and telling them what they need. Right. So it's become very unique and interesting for me to really say, hey, listen, you got to run your building. What does it mean? You need to run your building. I can't sit here and argue with you just because I'm an opinionated moron or something like that, you know, so, so yeah, it's been, it's been great. And then navigating how the board and the superintendent, like, what do you need? You know, I guess we're going to make that happen. Right? Let's go. Rock and roll. Okay, no problem.
- [36:10]
B
Yeah. Just, you know what I, the way I often put it is like my superpower is asking really dumb questions of really smart people's. People. Right? Like, I'll do the whole thing. Like, well, why wouldn't you do X, Y and Z? And they're like, well, Chris, that's because then, you know, we can't fit that many children on a bus or whatever it might be. Right?
- [36:28]
A
Yeah. Makes sense.
- [36:29]
B
Like, like, oh, right, okay, sure. But again, you try and do with humility and not like a complete knucklehead. Right. But from some semblance of knowledge base a little bit. Right. But what I found, and this is even in my career before coming here, I think, is you ask an expert in the field what you know is probably a mundane question every once in a while they're like, well, no, well, hang on a second, let me think about that. And then sometimes you end up in a better place or a different way of doing things.
- [36:57]
C
Please.
- [36:57]
B
Look, let's be honest. Regardless of your district, we're all trying to do more with less. Right? We're all trying to make sure that every dollar gets stretched more and we have to be extremely responsible about it because it's the people's money. Okay, well, that means that we have to try and be creative with how we get things done. Right. And sometimes that means it's something that's helpful for a quote unquote outsider to come in and say, okay, but why wouldn't you do this? And there are a number of great reasons from lots of great studies that were done that show you why it's the wrong thing. That's terrific. Good. I'm glad we got through point. Let's keep moving. Right. And, and, but if you're lucky enough to help out that way and just that, that quote unquote dumb question of a really smart person helps you to, to hopefully, you know, use those dollars in a better way.
- [37:40]
C
Yeah.
- [37:41]
A
I think back to when I had started. The, the mentor that was, was helping me out so much really told me something that has resonated with me since he said it was that when I was, when I was starting out, I was very intimidated just not being able to articulate everything the way I thought my superintendent or my board would want to hear it. And just being in, just not confident. But he told me, he said, you know, this superintendent and this board hired you, so they want you to be successful. And when he said that, the kind of light bulb went off like, oh, I guess I shouldn't be so worried that everything I do is going to blow up like they want me to do well. So that kind of changed my approach in terms of I could ask those knucklehead questions and kind of not get away with it. But I knew that they weren't going to necessarily come down to me, like, why don't you know all this already? So that, that was some really great advice from my mentor that I, you know, I, I try to pass on to those new business officials that I meet out in the field. Like, listen, these people hired you. Why would they hire you to want to see you fail? It just doesn't really make sense. So we're coming up on time. I have a lot more questions to get to, so I'm going to jump to one that's really important, especially to me, is really the work family balance. The job role is incredibly demanding, especially if it's your first time becoming a school business official. So you know, John, with, with starting with you, how have you reached a balance in the professional responsibility with your family life? And if you, and if you feel like you haven't, like, what are you doing to kind of strike that balance? Because there is a lot to, to go back and forth between long hours at the office, board meetings and then family obligations. What, what has been your experience so far?
- [39:16]
C
First of all, I have the greatest wife and kids for completely understanding, right? So I, again, from the instructional side, I was doing nights and weekends, right? I had to do football games and maybe had to go to a board meeting, but dances and stuff like that. Now this shifted and became a lot more structured. You know, two board meetings, weeks and you know, committee meetings, stuff like that. So they, they get it and they understand. So I'm incredibly grateful to my wife and my kids and they understand dad's roles and responsibilities. And yeah, I was grinding 70, 80 hours a week when I first started and I was okay with that. I think the family was okay with that.
- [39:50]
B
They got it.
- [39:51]
C
But then it got to be a little too much, right? I was working really six days a week, no problem, six full days. Sundays I would dedicate completely and I finally had to carve out Saturday. So I started to draw that line now getting a little bit more comfortable, you know, again, I'm not saying I'm perfect, but, but, but getting more comfortable, you know, drawing the lines of, you know, how late am I working, how early am I starting and what am I doing on weekends and setting that tone. There is a culture in my district now that there's really not a lot of emails that are flying after 4 o', clock, 5 o'. Clock. There's not emails flying on the weekends. So I'm not going to put that on my staff or anybody that I work with. So I think that is tremendously helpful so being able to draw that line. So now I do spend a lot more time with my family now. My kid's a little bit older and they're like, yeah, we don't want to hang out with you.
- [40:42]
A
They want to spend less time with.
- [40:43]
C
You, but you're just not that cool anymore. Well, actually, dad, you were never that cool to begin with with service. Correct. So I just drive them around everywhere now. So.
- [40:54]
A
Yeah.
- [40:54]
C
Thanks, dude. Later.
- [40:56]
B
Right, right.
- [40:57]
A
And Chris, what about you? I mean, it was a big shift.
- [41:00]
B
It's about having a great understanding from, you know, my wife and kids. Similarly, they understand that, you know, some hours you have to put in time like that, you have to structure it yourself. You know, whatever works for each person is going to be a little bit different. Right. But I think the idea of carving out when is, hey, look, I am done for this day. Right. And there'll be days you have to go over past that. Right. And if there's emergencies, I think a big piece of that too is you prioritize stuff, right? What's really has to be done by X date and make sure you get that done. You can't let things roll too much. There's always something extra that comes up. But I mean, it's in so many ways, I think it's kind of how you manage each day to day, Right. I think sometimes you try and structure things out and say, oh yeah, I'm do this today and blah, blah, blah, and here's how then I'll leave it exactly this time, nine times out of 10, it shifts from that in some way. Right. And I think the reality is you just kind of have to. To your point, John, right? Like, hey, no, you're not going to fly emails out here and there and like late after you know, certain hour or on the weekend or whatever like that. Right. And it goes both ways. You don't. You obviously, if the board member or president or your superintendent is going to come to you, you're going to respond to that note. But you know, if others just say, look, I'll totally get to you on Monday or whatever it might be, right. And you do it the other way.
- [42:13]
C
Right.
- [42:13]
B
Don't expect that someone's going to turn something around for you on a moment's notice.
- [42:16]
A
Right, Right. So I want to leave with one more question. What did you wish? What do you know now that you wish you knew in your first year? John, why don't you kick us off?
- [42:31]
C
God. Content. Like, I wish I was an AI machine four years ago where I could just crush the content of this, plug.
- [42:40]
A
Into the matrix and download everything you need.
- [42:42]
C
Yeah, just call me Al right Alpha. You know, like, I wish are, like, two of the most wasted words in the English language. Right? But, like, that would be amazing if I like the content, if I could get that content so much more quickly and understand it. But in the end, I don't regret any of that because I've learned so much. The learning curve went from the floor to the ceiling in seconds, you know, And I really appreciate that. And I'm still learning, you know, still dive in on everything. Like, like you said, you know, Chris had to deal with payroll. Okay. I guess I'm learning payroll now. Right. So my food service director moved on to another district. I'm without a food service director. Guess I'm learning more about food service this.
- [43:28]
A
I'm in the same boat right now.
- [43:30]
C
Next several months. Right? Okay, let's go. And I think just showing that you're a leader willing to do whatever it takes if it's picking up a mop or anything like that. So I wish I could get content a lot quicker and be a lot more comfortable right off the bat.
- [43:49]
A
Chris.
- [43:51]
B
I think it's probably two things. One, I guess I wish I had some sort of, like, even more of a tutorial of, like, okay, how do you really do that moe thing? Right? Like, it would have been. Because having that knowledge, it's easier when you do it after you've done it a couple times. Although I feel like I'm relearning it sometimes. It's always like six or eight months since you did it. Right. That kind of thing. But. So it'd be nice to have had some sort of a. Maybe we should all write a book about, like, you know, year one is an sbo and we can give them, like, just key tactical things. But I think the other thing is if I. Because of my experience of what happened at the end of my first year, I wish I'd really understood just how important those great key people in the support. I'll call them support roles are. Right? You do need that payroll clerk who's got the eight years of experience or more. Right. You need that clerical person who's been sitting in that seat for 18 years. Right. I like to think I always respected people's, you know, abilities and skills. I didn't realize just how much they do that enables us to do what we do. Right? Like I, you know, basically in the last two months of my first year, our payroll clerk left and my treasurer left, right? So at which point then I'm like, wow, this is going to be fun, right? And then we had a giant flood, which is an emergency. We had a, we had a fun, like six or eight months there. But, you know, looking back, we got through that. Not because I'm a superstar by any means, right to John's point, still learning, but more we got through it because I did have people we were able to pull in and kind of support and kind of support me in figuring some of those roles out. So just, you know, I just stress to everybody who comes into this role realize just how important that treasurer, that payroll, that, you know, account clerk or anybody you got in that office, those transportation folks, everybody, because they're the ones that are in the trenches doing the work and then helping you to understand how to make the right decision or, you know, take things forward the right way. So that's just a key thing. I always remind myself of that now.
- [45:45]
C
That's great.
- [45:46]
A
Well, gentlemen, I thank you for joining me today on School Business inside. You have, you've shared some great stories and you're both doing incredibly well, and I'm glad to see your successes. So I wish you a great holiday with your family, and hopefully you can find a little downtime and not be grinding so much. But thank you both.
- [46:02]
C
Thanks for having us. John, Happy holidays, happy New Year, and we'll see you guys soon.
- [46:09]
A
Thank you for tuning in to School Business Insider. Make sure to check back each week for your favorite topics on school business. Sam.