Does Advocacy Work? Lessons from ASBO New York Advocacy Day

Summary

Podcast Summary: Does Advocacy Work? Lessons from ASBO New York Advocacy Day

School Business Insider
Host: John Brucato
Guest: Dr. Ron Clamser, Assistant Superintendent for Business, Putnam Northern Westchester BOCES
Aired: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host John Brucato sits down with Dr. Ron Clamser to examine the real-world effectiveness of advocacy efforts, drawing on their experiences from ASBO New York’s recent Advocacy Day in Albany. The discussion provides an inside look at how school business officials engage with legislators, reflect on evolving advocacy strategies, and consider what truly drives change in public education policy.

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Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. The Evolving Nature of Advocacy Day

• Participation and organization at Advocacy Day have grown in recent years, with more structured preparation and increased involvement from diverse geographical chapters.

• (02:00) Ron Clamser:
  “It's becoming a much more well-oiled process…we bring our government relations committee members in, which has a diverse representation, and then we're also bringing in representatives from the various regional chapters.”

• A notable shift this year involved attending a local legislative breakfast with lawmakers shortly before the statewide event, leading to more focused discussions at Advocacy Day itself.

2. Importance of Local Stories & Regional Nuance

• While ASBO NY maintains consistent statewide talking points, each group is encouraged to personalize discussions to reflect regional realities and district-specific needs.
• (08:29) Ron Clamser:
  “When we advocate, we're advocating for membership as a whole... but what's important is that we're bringing the regional perspective to the table.”

3. What Advocacy Day Looks Like

• Advocacy Day consists of a series of tightly scheduled, brief meetings with lawmakers (often 15–30 minutes), requiring concise, impactful messaging.

• The day is an “experiment in grassroots democracy,” but can feel rushed and impersonal.

• (09:36) Ron Clamser:
  “You have a 15 minute meeting and then you're off to the next meeting...your time with the lawmakers is pretty limited.”

• Attendees must be prepared for meetings with either lawmakers or their staffers, with varying levels of buy-in and engagement.

4. Relationship-Building Over Time

• Advocacy is not a one-off event—building consistent, authentic relationships with legislators at both the state and local levels is crucial for long-term influence.

• (26:38) Ron Clamser:
  “It’s a longer process, building a relationship…they also know that when they come back home, we're here.”

• ENGAGEMENT TIP: Lawmakers respond most to personal connections and stories from their own districts.

5. Preparation, Messaging, and Storytelling

• Significant behind-the-scenes collaboration goes into developing key legislative priorities and preparing cohesive talking points.
• Storytelling is more effective than simply presenting data; legislators want to hear the direct impact on local schools and communities.
• (22:44) Ron Clamser:
  “Those are the real stories…when one of our colleagues is talking about how this legislation impacts them in their local district.”

6. Priority Issues Discussed

• The big topics for ASBO NY’s 2026 Advocacy Day were:
  • Foundation Aid updates and adjustments
  • Universal Pre-K (UPK) funding and mandates
  • Prior Year adjustments (state aid owed to districts)
  • Zero-emission bus transition challenges

Memorable Quote on UPK:

• (24:05) Ron Clamser:
  “Now they kind of gave the funding and now we're going back to them and saying, hey, thank you very much for the funding. But the reality is we don’t have the space...all sorts of other issues that made it a difficult conversation to have.”

• The increased UPK funding was welcomed, but ASBO members faced complicated reactions when they raised the remaining logistical and practical challenges.

Memorable Quote on Zero-Emission Buses:

• (31:22) Ron Clamser:
  “With the bus mandate...we want to follow the law. And we were finding a little bit of a dance with that. We weren't getting real clarification on what happens if you don't do it.”

7. “Does Advocacy Work?” — Reflections on Influence

• Both speakers express that advocacy leads to incremental change, not sweeping overnight victories.

• Legislators cite concerns public officials raise, and over time, persistent advocacy helps shape funding formulas and implementation details.

• (38:17) John Brucato:
  “So the million-dollar question, Ronnie: does advocacy actually lead to change?”
  (38:26) Ron Clamser:
  “I would like to believe so. I think we need to believe in the process…if we don’t go, then the narrative is, well, if you had a problem with it, you should have come and told us.”

• The key is consistency and the willingness to “beat the drum” over years, not just one session.

• Effective advocacy is much about being “in the room” and maintaining credibility as an informed, constructive voice on school finance.

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Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the anxiety of Advocacy Day:
  (12:44) Ron Clamser:
  “There’s a lot of anxiety, you know, going into it. But it’s really important. If we don’t go, then the narrative would be, well, you didn’t come and you didn’t tell us your opinion, and so we didn’t know what position you would take.”

• On the “real work” of advocacy:
  (20:05) Ron Clamser:
  “The culmination isn’t even the meeting in the office. There’s a lot of prep work…all that background work leads to this. And then they get to hear from real people that are living it in the trenches.”

• On adapting the message:
  (35:50) Ron Clamser:
  “We were approaching it...from a very tactical, you know, like ‘Hey, we appreciate it, but these are the issues.’ And it was almost like, well, don’t come to us with the problem unless you have a solution, right? …So we just had to, you know...retool that and say, you know what, we are appreciative...we just need to point out some things that we want to draw your attention to...”

• On incremental change:
  (39:10) Ron Clamser:
  “If we don’t go, then the narrative is, well, if you had a problem with it, you should have come and told us... There are plenty of other players in the game that are going to speak their narrative.”

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Notable Timestamps

• 01:52 – Ron Clamser on the evolution of Advocacy Day participation
• 09:36 – “Experiment in grassroots democracy”: what Advocacy Day meetings look like
• 20:05 – The importance of preparation and groundwork before official advocacy
• 24:05 – Challenges of new UPK funding and lawmaker reactions
• 26:38 – Relationship-building as a long-term advocacy strategy
• 28:36 – Recap of this year’s legislative priorities
• 31:22 – Unanswered questions around the zero-emission bus mandate
• 35:50 – Fine-tuning advocacy messaging to balance gratitude and concerns
• 38:17 – “Does advocacy work?” direct question and answer

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Closing Thoughts

The episode reveals that successful school advocacy is a marathon, not a sprint. The consistent, professional presence of school business officials—armed with real local stories, thorough preparation, and a willingness to adapt messaging—allows them to shape policy, even if only incrementally. The relationships built and credibility established ensure that when big shifts come, school business voices are part of the conversation.

As Ron Clamser put it:
“If we want our voice to be heard, we have to speak our voice.” (40:54)

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to asbo international's school business insider. I'm your host, john brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello everyone, and welcome back to School Business Insider. We recently wrapped up Asthma New York's Advocacy Day in Albany, where school business officials from across the state met directly with legislators to talk about funding, mandates, sustainability and the realities districts are facing right now. In today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Ron Clamser, Assistant Superintendent for business at Putnam north and Westchester Boces, to reflect on the advocacy process itself, what makes advocacy effective, whether it truly influences policy, and how legislators respond to ESBA NY's priority list. We'll talk candidly about preparation, messaging, relationship building, and why school business officials play such a critical role in telling the fiscal and operational story of public education. Ron, I'm glad to have you back on School Business Insider. My friend. How you doing?

[B]

Doing well, John. Thanks for having me back.

[A]

Always, always. You're becoming a staple around here, so I'm glad you agreed to come back on. So we just wrapped up Advocacy Day and from your perspective, what really stood out about this year's experience? You know, I believe I had you on two years ago to really talk about this process, but you know, each year is a lot of the same, but there are definitely nuances. So what were kind of your takeaways from the Advocacy Day we just had?

[B]

Yeah, so this year was a little different from my experience because I've been doing this for several years. I feel that the association has grown in its capacity to really organize and lead an Advocacy Day and it's becoming a much more well oiled process. Right. And you know, the executive director of asbo, Brian Chicknicki, does a great job along with Julie Marlette, who's from the firm that the association utilizes, you know, to assist us with this. And it's become just really a great event. We've got a lot more participation from groups throughout the state. And so what we do as an association, we, we bring our government relations committee members in, which has a diverse representation and then we're also bringing in representatives from the various regional chapters. So that's been growing over the course of the year. What was unique about this particular year for me was the Friday before our statewide advocacy, as you know, because we're both in the same location in the Lower Hudson, Hudson Valley part of New York. We had a local advocacy breakfast, a legislative breakfast. And so many of the people that we were scheduled to meet with in Albany in their office had attended the legislative breakfast on Friday, you know, and we're uniquely situated because in our area, Senator Andrew Stewart Cousins, who is the majority leader of the Senate, resides in our area, and Senator Shelley Mayer, who runs the Senate, she's the chair of the Education Committee, also is in our area. Right. So those are two we kind of call heavy hitters, you know, in the.

[A]

Market, you know, and what's remarkable, too, is that both of them showed up on our Lower Hudson Advocacy Day. It wasn't kind of sending their staffers, which I remember when I first came down to this region about five or six years ago and attended the first legislative breakfast in our area, that really stood out to me as something special because it's not always that you get the legislators themselves, usually these little local events, they're sending their staffers. But, you know, Andrew Stewart Cousins and Senator Shelley Mayer, they both showed up and we saw them again the following couple days later.

[B]

Yeah. And not to discount the other ones that came, but, you know, when you've got the majority leader and the head of the Senate Education Committee, those are some influential power brokers. Right, Right. And they, I can say this because I have been involved for so many years. They have been really good friends to, to ASBO New York.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, they have been advocates, you know, and they're, you know, what? They, they speak the truth when we need to, you know, hear it. They're, they're very forthright with us, but they, they have grown to rely on our, our participation. You know, But I guess what was different about that is rather, you know, we, we went in and we probably talk about preparation and all that goes into organizing such an event, but we have a, you know, a list of Advocacy Day talking points that have been drafted so that when the individual groups are going, you know, and making. Going to the meetings in their, you know, representative areas. Right. But we're all speaking from the same, from the same notepad. We have some key points that we want to drive home that as a state association, we are. We are advocating for. Although each, each group brings a different nuance because of their demographic, because their, you know, representation, whatever. Whatever the district they belong to or their region. Right. There's a little bit different flavor nuance to what they're talking about, but for the most part, we have Similar things we're talking about here. I'm trying to, you know, taking a long way around to get to my point, but my point was that because we had collaborated with the state on our local advocacy breakfast, we already spoke about these points to the people who were attending the legislative breakfast on Friday. So we didn't want it to be redundant by going to their office and then regurgitating kind of the same speaking points. So we kept it a little bit more narrow and we spent a lot of time on. On one of the points rather than the whole list of points. So that was a little different too, because we had, we had already spent time together.

[A]

Do you find it challenging to be able to speak to all the varying legislative priorities? Because every region in the. In the state may have a specific interest in one of those legislative priorities, but it doesn't necessarily mean that all of those legislative priorities mean something to you specifically in your district. So you said each, each individual in the group took a speaking point. Have you found it, whether it's this year or maybe years prior, challenging to kind of speak to something that isn't directly related to the needs of your individual district?

[B]

Yes. I guess the short answer is yes, and fortunate enough that we have some talented people that are able to speak on a variety of points. For myself, now that I'm working at abosys and for those who are not New York listeners, BOCES is a regional Board of Cooperative Educational Service. So a lot of the Advocacy day talking points don't really apply to the boces. We're not a taxing entity and we don't receive state aid. A lot of these things don't apply. In that case, I'm drawing upon my experiences being in local school district, and I'm also representing the 18 school districts that belong to my BOCES, so I'm speaking on their behalf as well. So it kind of, while it doesn't affect my boces, it does, you know, I have an obligation to become well versed on the topic because I am representing a group. And I guess to the other point is, you're right, some of these points, you know, that we, that we speak about have a regional flair to them. But, you know, when we advocate, we're advocating for membership as a whole, not necessarily for our own district or for our own region. But what's important is that we're bringing the regional, you know, the regional perspective to the table. And what is, what is really important is that when we speak to legislators, they want to hear local stories and they want to hear about things that affect their constituents. Now they know that when they go to the state level, they're representing the whole state, but they are representing their constituents who voted them in. So there's a delicate balance between speaking on a local and regional issues and also representing statewide association.

[A]

Right. I want to get into the preparation and the storytelling in a little bit, but before we get there, for school business officials who may not have participated before, what does a typical Advocacy Day actually look like in practice? Now, for those listening, obviously we're talking specifically about New York, but I'd imagine that this formula could probably be extrapolated out to other states. But you know, you've said that it's kind of changed over the course of recent history in terms of how we've approached it. But maybe tell the listeners a little bit more about what Advocacy day looks like. You know, start to finish.

[B]

You know, for me, I find it to be a very interesting experiment in democracy. Right. Grassroots democracy where you go to the capitol and you have pre scheduled meetings and they're very short sessions. So you have a 15 minute meeting and then you're off to the next meeting, or maybe it's a 30 minute block by the time you get there and you get into the office and you sit down and you do the introductions. Your time with the, with the lawmakers is pretty limited. And then you get rushed out and then some other group with some other completely different agenda comes in, you know, and they speak to their points. And I would imagine during these days there's just such a variety of people that are coming in. And if it's a, if it's a legislative day or I mean like an advocacy day where you have multiple groups going around, I would have like five or six different topics could come and go out of that, you know, the lawmaker's office, you know, and, and if they're in session, sometimes they're over in the chamber and then, you know, they can't make your meeting and then you sit with a staffer. And so it is kind of an interesting, I say experiment. I don't know if it's an experiment or not, but do you ever wonder.

[A]

How they keep it straight with having so many different advocacy groups? Because I remember we talked about this before, but not only do you have the association of school business officials, but you have the association of farms and daycares and everything else under the sun. Do you ever think about putting yourself in the shoes of the actual legislator? And how would you keep it all straight?

[B]

I do, yeah. And I'm impressed in many cases how they can actually speak to the topic that we're talking about. Now, I've been in some meetings where you might have been in this one too, a couple years ago, where the person's like, I don't know why you're talking to me about this.

[A]

It's funny you mention that, because I was doing an AI training last week and it was in the region of which this legislator represented. And I went up to our buddy Matt. I'm like, hey, do you remember last year? That guy was basically like, buzz off.

[B]

Like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know how to do that, you know, But I think there's a lot of. There's a lot of effort that goes into connecting, you know, scheduling the meetings of the people that will make the most connections. Right, right. And so the office staff and Hinman, Straub, they work hard to make sure that our time. We're not wasting the lawmakers time and we're not wasting our time. Right. And we're getting the most out of our efforts, you know, So a lot of the, A lot of the people we're meeting with represent our local region, but also have some sort of interest in the topics we're talking about.

[A]

I have a personal question for you. Do you enjoy it? Do you enjoy the day of meeting with all these legislators?

[B]

I think overall I enjoy it. From, from a. From like a third party observer. I find a great interest in it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For me personally, too, there's a lot of. Which may come to surprise to some people, but. But for me, there's a lot of anxiety about the talking about the topic and presenting and having the meeting. You know, like, I. Sometimes that makes me really nervous, whether I show it or not. But there's a lot of anxiety, you know, going into it. But it's really important. I think it's really important because here's what I tell people. I say if we don't go, then the narrative would be, well, you didn't come and you didn't tell us your opinion, and so we didn't know what position you would take. And so I feel like we have an obligation to go, even if at times it feels like it's not being effective. Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

And sometimes if you're meeting with a staffer, it's almost like, you know, you feel like you're not getting the same. The same care as if you were meeting with the lawmaker themselves. Other times you meet with a staffer and the staffer is just like on top of it, knows exactly the issues, you know. And then there are other times the staffers just going through the motions, you know.

[A]

Yeah. Scribbling down notes. You're not really even sure if they're gonna make it to the legislator or not. But yeah, we've all been in those meetings.

[B]

I just.

[A]

I'm fascinated by the political machine and the process itself, to your point. But I just find it a very unnatural kind of cadence and process to be able to just walk into a pseudo stranger's office and advocate, slash, ask for all these things and then leave in 15 minutes. It's very unnatural to me. So I would say out of the things I enjoy, that's probably not one of the top five. But I do enjoy the idea of it. But just actually doing it, it's just not. I don't know. It's not for me.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, you definitely expressed it much more eloquently than I was able to, but it's exactly how I feel. I feel like it's a necessary part.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think we've been doing it so long that we now have a place in the process, you know, that if ASBO New York didn't show up, there would be question like, well, what happened to the school business officials?

[A]

Yeah. And I don't think you could have said that maybe six years ago. Right. I mean, our reputation at the Capitol was very different. Not necessarily bad, but very different than it is now. And I think know, going down another rabbit hole. But you and I on the board together, one of the big. One of the one focus that we've had is really enhancing the prestige of the organization. And I think because we have now almost a permanent seat at the table. And to your point, if we don't show up, people are wondering why we haven't. That speaks to the work we've done on the board, Brian Cheknicki and all of his work and the staff to really cement ourselves as a voice to. In education. Specifically education finance.

[B]

Yes, exactly. And I remember when I first went, I couldn't even tell you how many years back it was. It wasn't that long ago really, that we were doing the capital visits. I feel that there was one group going around, so maybe we had, you know, six to 10 people in a group, maybe five meetings that day. And now we had five groups with five meetings. So we had 25 meetings happening that day. So there's a big difference. Right. And what helps is having the people that know this process, because there is a little bit of a dance to it. There's a process that you have to go through when you're speaking on the topics. You can't just barge in there. And there's definitely a formal process about it.

[A]

Yeah, there's kind of like an unwritten code of how to effectively advocate, and it's not just showing at the legislator's door. I mean, the fact that we're partnering with our. Our attorneys at Hinman's Drab, I think, has really helped ease that and make. Make the dams a little easier to figure out. Because if it was just us, where it has been in the past, it was a little more clunky, and now it seems to be a little bit easier to navigate that. That process with legislators.

[B]

And in some cases, that feels a little less natural.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it definitely feels more prescribed.

[B]

They know what's going on at the Capitol. Right. So they know what topics to stay away from. They know what topics to go in at. You know, they know what angle to approach it because they see the other side of it. Right. So the attorneys at him and Straub are representing multiple groups, and so they know, well, maybe the superintendents are doing this and the boces district superintendents are doing this. We don't want to go in saying this because we'll be at odds, you know, like, so there is a dance to it that makes it really important. And if you just do it, like, if I'm just a citizen that's going to just go up to the Capitol and decide to go knock on doors and advocate, it's. While they're. I'm sure they want to hear from their constituents. It's. That probably is a different experience than this more formal process of having a meeting, set schedule. And, you know, some of the groups, when you go there, they have hundreds of people. They have a. You know, they have a podium in the. In the lobby and. And maybe 100, 150 chairs set up. And they've got catered lunches and placard signs and shirts and everything else, you know?

[A]

Well, I was gonna say, I mean, I. I wasn't able to attend this, this year's actual advocacy day, but from the pictures I saw, you guys actually had, like, a little office space this year. And last year we were out in the hallway eating boxed lunches, but it looks like you had a little bit more of some hospitable circumstances.

[B]

It was. It was nice. We had a. Like a home base to go to, to kind of go to in between meetings. And there was a kind of like a continental breakfast. And there was, you know, it was also sponsored by Senator Mayor.

[A]

Okay, I didn't know that part.

[B]

I think she set the room up or got us something like that. I don't want to speak out of context here, but her face was on the sign out front welcoming us. Right. But it also, she popped in and some other people popped in in the morning to just say good morning, you know, how are you? Good to see you. So it felt a little bit more at home than stuck in the closet somewhere. Yeah.

[A]

And huge shout out to Senator Shelley Mayer. She's always, to your earlier point, been a friend of education. And I mean, she came to our dinner the night before. She came to our Lower Hudson meeting two days before that. So she didn't have to do any of that. But she's seen the same group at least two to three times within a four day period.

[B]

Yeah. And for years she's been a big supporter. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So all of this kind of culminates around what I wanted to really hone in on today is effectiveness. We talk a lot about advocacy, both in New York and the international level, and we talk about its importance, but I want to talk about its effectiveness or lack thereof. So can we start by maybe having you tell me what you feel makes advocacy resonate with legislators? What really greases the skids towards effectiveness?

[B]

Well, I think in order to answer that question, you have to look at it. You have to look at the entire approach to it. And so it's the culmination isn't even the meeting in the office. There's a lot of prep work behind the scenes. Brian, our executive director and Julie, our attorney from Hinman Shrub, they do a lot of meetings all year long that are talking about these issues, kind of, you know, gathering information and developing the legislative priorities. There's monthly government relations committee meetings also that are developing these things. Right. And so all of that work is going into it. And then it comes to this day, and this day is real people sitting across from the lawmaker talking about how these legislative points affect them in their district, who happens to be a constituent of the person. Right. That's where the effectiveness comes in. All that background work leads to this. And then they get to hear from like real people that are living it in the trenches, working with it and have some significant impact they're talking about. But that's also not the end. Then the end, you know, like then there's continuing follow up. Brian and Julie following up you know, all throughout the year, just reinforcing what we're doing. But I think what makes it impactful is being in person and having the experiences at the local level talked about. Because I think advocacy happens at the grassroots.

[A]

Hey everyone. I just wanted to take a moment to thank Today's episode sponsor, UnitedHealthcare. Every school district is unique and your health plan should be too. At UnitedHealthcare, our group health plans are built for you and your employees. Whether you're managing a small district or overseeing a large network of schools, we offer solutions designed to fit your needs, goals and budget. Explore your options [e-mail] Insurance coverage provided by or through UnitedHealthcare Insurance Company or its affiliates. Administrative services provided by UnitedHealthcare Services Inc. Or their affiliates. Health plan coverage provided by or through a UnitedHealthcare company. Again, thanks to UnitedHealthcare Today for sponsoring the episode. Let's get back to our conversation. You've mentioned preparation a couple times already. So how important really is preparation before you even get to advocacy day? And then how important is consistency and also storytelling versus just kind of sharing the numbers of, you know, they're talking to a bunch of numbers people, but I think we need to put a little bit more spin on just kind of sharing Excel spreadsheet.

[B]

Right, right. Well, and those are the real life, the real stories that, you know, when, when we're sitting there and one of our colleagues is talking about how this legislation impacts them in their local district. And so we're talking about, big topic that we spent a lot of time talking about was UPK funding, which is universal pre K funding. You know, so this floating, this idea, floating around about making it mandatory, know, for four year olds. And so this is something that we actually as a, as an association has advocated for in the sense of funding. So the state used to provide meager funding, 5,400, I think, of student, and they've increased it to 10,000, which is something that we've said in years past, we're not doing the UPK because we don't have the funds. And we would say other things, but the main point was the funding. Now they kind of gave the funding and now we're going back to them and saying, hey, thank you very much for the funding. But the reality is we don't have the space. You know, we have this issue, we have that issue and all sorts of other issues that made it a difficult conversation to have. We got a lot of pushback this year because it was basically like you've been talking about funding for the last few years and we've given you the funding and now all of a sudden you're telling us you can't do it.

[A]

Well, it wasn't just the space too. It was kind of a both. And so the proposal from the executive's office was that we would increase from $5,400 to $10,000 per student. There's a whole formula for UPK here in New York that's a huge amount of money and very much welcomed, but not at the sacrifice of the other aids that we get from the state. So without going down too much of a New York rabbit hole, our main aid category that's unrestricted in New York is called foundation aid. What 70% of districts are slated to get a 1% increase on that, yet all these other districts are going to get, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars more in upk. And I think it was Julie who made the analogy, which I've been kind of repeating is you're going to have a platinum level UPK program and now theoretically a bronze K12 program, because the money isn't being driven to where the needs are necessarily, or at least most of it is being driven to four year olds who aren't even in kindergarten yet. So it's been a really interesting needle to thread because how do you say thank you, but can we have it a little bit differently?

[B]

Well, that's an important point you bring up because the foundation a and the 1% floor was also on our list. Right. And where it came into these unique personal stories, one of our districts said, to put it in context, my foundation aid per pupil selected ratio is, let's say I'm going to make up the number $2,800 per pupil. You're throwing $10,000 per pupil for the UPK program. But at the 1% floor with my foundation aid, I'm only getting 2,800 for regular students. And that kind of shows that inequity that you were just speaking about. Right. But in a window of 15 minutes, it's how you give that across to get to that message. And so you kind of come out and you start talking about something and then all of a sudden the pushback came and we found ourselves kind of backpedaling in some ways. And then we would go back to the room and say we need to retool our approach to this. And maybe we have to word it differently because we don't want to come across as. Not appreciating what, what they've done for us. Right. And so with each, with each meeting, we kind of fine tune our message.

[A]

Yeah. So with all that said, in your experience, does advocacy work best as a single event, or is advocacy really a part of a longer relationship building process with legislators?

[B]

I think it's a longer process building a relationship. I think that's what it is. And it's not just the relationship at the state, but in the local, you know, so one, in another example, we walked into one lawmaker's office and she recognized one of the people that was with us and connected locally to that person. Right. And so I feel like that made a difference.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And maybe in that case made her a little bit more comfortable to provide some pushback because there was a local, you know, relationship. But I really think for the long term, the relationship building is key because they also know that when they come back home, we're here. Right. And they can, we can tap on their door, you know, like I think in anything that we do, John, and you know this better than anybody else, this is relationship building.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's working with our communities, working with our colleagues, working with the state.

[A]

So I want to talk a little bit more specifically on what you advocated for just last week. So for, for context, for those listening, there was a whole list of priorities for Asbo's 26 advocacy day, but the big ones were foundation aid updates and adjustments, which I already mentioned. Foundation aid is our main unrestricted aid category, universal pre k that Ron had mentioned. Prior year adjustments, which is money owed to districts. We won't get into that too much. Another big one was zero emission bus transition challenges. So what is it? 2027, all new bus purchases need to be zero emission. And then by 2035 in the state of New York, the entirety of the fleet needs to be zero emission. So as those listening can imagine, there's some logistical challenges, not just with the districts themselves, but the electrical suppliers being able to absorb all that. So of just those that I listed, which priorities seem to generate the most engagement or questions from legislators when you talk to these points?

[B]

Well, for our particular group, we spent all, almost all the time talking about UPK funding because the other topics, we really spent a lot of time on the Friday breakfast discussing them. So that's what was unique about our particular group. We did get in, we did spend some time talking about foundation aid and also the electric bus mandate. You know, that is another thing that's very concerning to the districts. We have some districts that have actually been piloting it and have you know, have shared their life experience with it and how the rollout has gone poorly in some cases. And so we were able to speak to that. But you know, like in the electric bus mandate, it's almost, it's almost that that train has left the station in a way. Right. And, and there didn't seem to be a whole lot of interest in, in delaying it. Although the feeling that I got was that it was, they wanted to, they wanted to know that districts were putting their best effort forward.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

And they put a waiver place in process. But in some cases, I feel like this is where sometimes legislation gets in front of itself and it becomes, it becomes such a momentum that they can't pull it back. And the electric bus mandate is one thing because generally speaking, there's a push to conserve greenhouse gases and move to electric vehicles. But then you have a federal shift that now is playing. It's contrary to prior, the federal government was pushing this too. And now we have a new administration that's almost putting the brakes on it and it's hard to pull back when the state has invested so much in moving forward.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I, I feel that the UPK topic is very similar because now that it's been out there, you have families and you're one that you, you have, you pay for daycare, you know how expensive it is. I'm well beyond that place in my time of life, but I've been there, paid that, and now you have families that are interested in it. And I don't see that genie going back in the bottle. Right. So we have to just figure it out now, like the bus mandate. We have to figure it out. What we were looking for with the bus mandate was some, some clarification of what happens if a district doesn't meet the mandate. Is it just that they lose state aid on the transportation in, on the bus or are there other things? There was very little committal to answer that question because in some cases lawmakers are saying, and I'm going to be a little bit flippant just for narrative purposes. Well, we can't see that anyone's going to go to jail over this. Right. No one's going to come arrest you because you didn't follow this mandate. Meanwhile, the state is saying, well, this is the law and we can't, we can't aid on these things if you don't follow the law. Right. And so it's almost like a wink, wink, trust us, this is gonna, you know, we're okay. No one's Gonna come after you. But some people have real concerns about what happens if you don't follow the mandate. We want to, you know, we wanna follow the law. And we were finding a little bit of a dance with that. We weren't getting real clarification on what happens if you don't do it. And I understand that because who's gonna put that out there politically too?

[A]

I don't see why legislation would jump to extending the deadline so far in advance of it. I mean, I think, I think it was last year one of the individuals we met with kind of showed us the truth that, listen, there's no way that we're going to extend this deadline two, three years in advance of it actually happening. It's going to at least have to get to the year prior to before we seriously consider it. Because I just think that's a political non starter. Because if that's the precedent they set, why, why would they even set a deadline at all? Because it's going to keep rolling and rolling and rolling.

[B]

You almost lose all your negotiating ability. Right, right, right.

[A]

So there's a little bit of game of chicken, I feel, with the zero bus or zero emission bus mandate a little bit.

[B]

And we tried to take that approach with the UPK funding. So, you know, like, let's remove the mandate. Well, let's put a waiver process in place maybe like you did with the buses, so that the districts that can't, you know, that don't have the space and would have to go through a capital project to add the space can never get it done in two years. You know, those kinds of things. And one of them said the quiet part out loud and said, well, if we remove the mandate, quite frankly, you're gonna have some districts that aren't going to do it. And so now you're gonna have a statewide inequity where, you know, people want it and the district's not providing it. I guess it kind of makes sense, right? And.

[A]

I mean, I'm experiencing it firsthand in my district. We don't have a UPK program right now, but you better believe it's all over the headlines that, you know, universal Pre K is coming and, and I don't expect families to do this, but it's not like they're getting into the details and the logistical challenges of standing up a program. But now all of a sudden, because of this announcement last month, our board meetings are packed with parents and rightfully so, wondering not if, but when are we going to start a UPK program? So it's not like we can just snap our fingers and we can have a new program. To your earlier point, there's space issues, there's staffing issues, trying to do RFPs. If we're going for a community based organization, there's all of these logistical challenges that no matter how we, how much we explain it to our community, you know, they're expecting something next year.

[B]

And where do citizens have their most influential power in New York?

[A]

It's the budget vote.

[B]

Well, it's at the school level, Right. Because it's a little daunting to go to the state and advocate. But the closest thing that citizens have to the democracy is going to their school board meeting and voting in school board members and it impacts their little ones. Right. So it's a, you know, it's the closest thing that people have to influencing the process, the political processes. Going to a school board meeting and having a voice, I would say even more so than going to a municipal meeting for sure.

[A]

The school meetings and the schools themselves, I think there's just so much more of an emotional connection to it because you're dealing with your kids where it's like, you know, if you, if you're dealing with a water main issue in the town, it's like, this sucks, but it's not impacting my, my children and their future. So I think it's, it's much more emotional with, when it comes to schools. I, I want to wrap this up though, but you had mentioned you had to kind of retool and refine your UPK message. Where, how did the, how did the conversations go to start? Were, were the legislators a little abrasive and like, well, why, you know, why would you be wanting to redo this? You've been asking for it for, for so many years. How, how, how did you refine your, your messaging on that?

[B]

I don't want to say they were abrasive. Maybe we had, we had one that was giving us some significant pushback. But you could tell that there was little interest in, in dialing back this program. That from, from their standpoint, there was. This is a win. Win, right? Yeah, we're good. We're gonna. Whether it started as a New York City, you know, focused matter and then wanted to become statewide, this was something that is going to have outstanding public support, right? Of course, overwhelming public support. And so there was no way that people were going to dial this back. And so you got the feel that it was more like, you need to figure this out. We're giving you the Money. Now you need to figure it out kind of. Kind of pushback. And, you know, we can figure it out. And in some cases, we're, you know, we're excited about the opportunity, you know, as educators, to get little ones into the education pipeline sooner. Right. We know that the sooner you get students into the pipeline, the better outcomes there are later in, you know, in their educational career. We were approaching it kind of like business officials from a very tactical, you know, like, hey, we appreciate it, but these are the issues. And. And it was almost like, well, don't. Don't come to us with the problem unless you have a solution. Right. In a sense. And so we just had to, you know, like. And I even brought it to the group. I said, let's go back to what our colleague did on the Friday breakfast, started the presentation out with a slide of gratitude to thank the lawmakers that were in attendance for all the things that they've accomplished on behalf of school districts. And so we kind of just retooled that and say, you know what, we are appreciative of what you're giving, but as we move forward in this process and we're supporting the process, we just need to point out some things that we want to draw your attention to that that are going to need to be fixed and tweaked along the way, as opposed to saying, like, yes, thank you for the money, but it's still not possible to do.

[A]

Was it like one of those, like, criticism sandwiches or compliment sandwiches that you say something really nice, then the real thing you want to talk about, and then follow it up with something really nice?

[B]

Sure, if that's a technique.

[A]

So the million dollar question, Ronnie, does advocacy actually lead to change?

[B]

I would like to believe so. I think we need to believe in the process. I feel that throughout the course of my interactions in the process, in some cases I felt like it was just very performative. In other cases, you could see that a light bulb went on and they said, oh, you know, that makes sense, and wrote it down. And then some of that came out of the process and the law was changed or the proposal was changed. I think so, yes. I think it's part of it. I'll go back to what I said on the onset of this, is that if we don't go, then the narrative is, well, if you had a problem with it, you should have come and told us.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, and so we have to speak our narrative, because if we don't, there are plenty of other players in the game that are Going to speak their narrative.

[A]

Yeah, I would say in all my years of advocacy, I would say it would lead to incremental change. I haven't seen anything sweeping, but at least you can see the foundation of things to change. And most recently in the last few years was our, our foundation aid formula. Finally, we had some updated metrics to make the, the data points in which the formula runs more current. There's still a lot of work to do, but we, we were banging that drum for years and years and years, and it kind of, to your point, after a while, felt performative because it just felt like it was falling in deaf ears. But over the last three to four years, we've seen some pretty monumental shifts. But again, similar to the UPK example, it's kind of a careful what you wish for because there's always going to be winners and losers when it comes to an aid formula change, and we're experiencing that right now. So it's tough to ask for the change but say, well, wait, we don't want anybody to be put in a precarious position. So that's kind of like that other needle that we're threading right now.

[B]

Well, it would be naive to believe that just because we go to the capital and we have a conversation that it's going to be like, okay, yeah, we'll change. You know, it is a process. And you and I, we sit on numerous boards, and even with whatever board we're serving on, and however small of a group it might be, or maybe some would even think an insignificant thing that we're working on to get consensus, to get movement on any particular issue is a process. And, you know, the, the state legal system is no different. It's a process, you know, and it would be naive to think that one person can make it. You know, it just, you got to negotiate the point. That part is we can't expect our lawmakers to be making the right decisions. If we can't, if we don't get to the table and speak about our perspective, you know, if we want our voice to be heard, we have to speak our voice.

[A]

You were very focused with your, your group on a few items. So I wonder what gives you optimism coming out of this year's Advocacy Day.

[B]

Well, I think one, one thing that gives me optimism is that we have continued, you know, is consistency. Right. I think the consistency of the New York State School association of School Business Officials, being present, being professional, being informative, informed, you know, and that is a consistent thing. And I feel like they have, they being the legislative body have relied on us, have become to rely on us for that. And so that gives me hope. Like you said, there were things that we were beating the drum about foundation aid for a long time and it's that consistency that moves things forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To your point, I would imagine if we don't show up one year maybe the thought would be, I guess it's not an issue anymore because they didn't come.

[A]

Right. Yeah. And to your point, these things are built over time. Right. You're not, you're not going to have a day at the Capitol and all of a sudden all your wishes come true. I mean, the foundation aid thing was. How long were you talking about changing that? Since 2011. Maybe once the formula ran for a couple years and it wasn't working out. You know, I mean it was, it was a long time coming and there's still a lot of work to do. So that could be the same case for the zero emission buses for us. That could be the same case for universal pre K, who knows? But to your point, it's important that we have a seat at the table and that we're showing up every year.

[B]

Well, look at the tax cap. Right. That came out in what, 20? 20. 11.

[A]

2011, yeah.

[B]

And, and when we started talking about issues like real issues about pilots and, and negative tax levies and you know, changes in assessed value, these were things that, that when they developed the tax cap calculations, they didn't take into consideration.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they learned from that because of us giving them examples of how it was impacting communities. These were unintended examples. I think over time there were some changes that were made because of that.

[A]

But counterpoint though, you can only draw on the. Well until it dries off because basically now they're like, we don't want to talk about the tax cap.

[B]

We don't want to talk about it anymore. Right.

[A]

That's a non starter.

[B]

You've used your mulligans.

[A]

Well. Ronnie, thank you so much for joining me today. It's always a pleasure to have you on the podcast and it was a really enlightening and successful advocacy day and I'm excited to see what influence ASBU New York has on this upcoming legislative session. So I'm sure you'll be back on soon, my friend. Thank you.

[B]

Thanks for having me, man. Appreciate it.

[A]

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