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School Business Insider
Mentorship Matters: Cheryl Campbell on Nurturing School Business Leaders
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- [00:01]
John Brucato
You're listening to ASBO International's School Business Insider. I'm your host, John Brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello, and welcome back to another episode of School Business Insider. Today we're exploring the transformative power of mentorship in the school business profession. My guest today is Cheryl Campbell, Chief operating officer at Thomas Tallis School in London. Sheryl is a seasoned school business leader with a rich background in finance and operations. She's also the founder of the abled association of BAME Business Leaders in Education and was honored as the TES School Business Leader of the Year in 2021. Sheryl has been a staunch advocate of mentorship, having established a mentor matching service on Twitter under the handle SBMmentors, facilitating over 30 mentor mentee pairings. In our conversation, we'll delve into Hearst's insights on effective mentoring practices, the benefits of mentorship for school business professionals, and how to foster a culture of continuous professional development. Cheryl, welcome to School Business Insider. I'm so happy to have you on today.
- [01:32]
Cheryl Campbell
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [01:35]
John Brucato
So let's jump right into it. Could you just kind of tell me a little bit about your journey in school business and really what inspired you to become an advocate for. For mentorship? It really seems to be an important piece of the journey for you, so I'm just curious what led you to where you are today? Sure.
- [01:53]
Cheryl Campbell
So if I explain my background. So I worked for 14 years in local government, I might have to explain the context because it's probably quite different to how things set up over there. So I worked for 14 years in local government, which is so a London borough. It's probably about 13 square miles in size and it caters for about 17,000 pupils. So I don't know if that puts it into context of how big a borough is. So I worked in, in a local government London borough for 14 years. First two years I was in finance, I was in the payroll team, and then for 12 years after that, I was in a department called Pupil Services. And Pupil Services dealt with school admissions right across the borough, school exclusion, so children being expelled from school or suspended and organizing home to school travel for pupils within that borough. So catering for, you know, 17,000 pupils. I then went on my first maternity leave and then quite quickly, I Had another maternity leave. So on my second maternity leave, that's when I decided that I wanted to work in schools. And for some crazy reason, I thought it would be an easier life working in schools. How wrong was I?
- [03:05]
John Brucato
Not what. It panned out.
- [03:08]
Cheryl Campbell
So I was on my maternity leave, I had a four month old and a. Four. Four month old? Yeah, four month old and a 22 month old. And I decided to go ahead and do a school business management qualification whilst on my maternity leave. And I thought that would be. It was a crazy decision, but, you know, I thought, this is the way to get into school. So I did that qualification whilst on maternity leave and before I'd even got my results, I had already been applied for and been successful in my first school business management role. So I got my first role and then that's when the panic set in. I thought, I actually haven't got the experience, I've done the qualification and, you know, I've worked in local authority, I've worked in education, but I haven't got the experience of working in schools. And that was when I had the idea of finding myself a mentor. So because I worked in school admissions, I had lots of connections with existing school business managers. So I contacted one in one of our local schools and said, you know, I'm embarking on this new profession, would you mind mentoring me and just getting me up to speed about the things that I will need to know so I can hit the ground running as much as possible. So that was really where my first interaction with mentorship came about. And it was, you know, for selfish reasons, I wanted to have the best start possible. And so I spoke to a school business manager that I was already in contact with and aware of and he was gracious enough to help me through.
- [04:37]
John Brucato
That's, that's wonderful. So when you think back to when you had first started, can you recall what you may have perceived the job was and what it really entailed? Like, was there, was there a disconnect before you really got into the work?
- [04:48]
Cheryl Campbell
Oh, absolutely. I don't think people realize how much work there is to do in schools. And working in the local authority, I had much more capacity, I had much more time in my day. Now there are not enough hours in the day. It was such a massive difference in the perception of what happens in schools and people may maybe still have that outdated perception that it's just one lady working in the office collecting some dinner money and, you know, answering the phone. You know, we, I'm, I'm in a Large secondary school, we have a whole team of people to do all of the administration, the finance it. So it is a really, really big difference. Really big difference.
- [05:26]
John Brucato
And so why do you think that is? I'm. I'm curious. I mean, is it for a lack of funding, a lack of staff, just too many regulations? Like why, why do you having, you know, having been doing this for a while now, why do you think that there's just so much more to do maybe than maybe your prior life and administration?
- [05:45]
Cheryl Campbell
I think schools do much more now. So previously things had been centralized in local government, so local authorities, the boroughs were much more involved in services for the schools and local authorities now do not have as much money. So things are pushed out to the schools and the schools do much more for themselves as well as schools now becoming academies, which is a whole different conversation. But academy trusts are not under the remit of the local authority, so they do a lot of the things for themselves as well.
- [06:15]
John Brucato
Right, so just over time we've been expected to do more with less. Now or. Absolutely now, now the days have been getting longer, so. So tell me a little bit more about your mentor journey, specifically with your Twitter or X handle that you've set up the SBM mentors, that really seems to have taken off. How has it evolved since you, you started it? I mean, did you, did you start it thinking that you would create this groundswell of mentor mentee relationships? What has really transpired since you. You kicking that off?
- [06:48]
Cheryl Campbell
So when I started again, it was, it was. Came out of my own experience. So I started in my first school in 2015. I was in a small primary school. I moved on to another primary school in 2015. So primary school is children from three to 11. So I was in a smaller school. The schools I was in had no more than 200 pupils on role, so that was my first experience of being a school business manager. In 2019, I moved into secondary school. So I was in a school for 11 to 19 year olds. And to put it into context, I moved from a school that had 200 pupils to a school that has over 2,000.
- [07:27]
John Brucato
Wow.
- [07:27]
Cheryl Campbell
And I was very aware that it was, you know, it's the same job but in a different phase of education. There were completely different things to be aware of. So I didn't know about six form funding. So sixth form is when you finish your, you finish your statutory education at age 16 and you can stay on to six form, a bit like college. And it's funded in a different way. And having worked in the primary sector, it was not something I had to be engaged with.
- [07:55]
John Brucato
I didn't understand something that wasn't even on your radar.
- [07:57]
Cheryl Campbell
Right, exactly. I didn't have any concept of the way timetabling works and how that affected the school budget and how it affected my spending. You know, I came from a school where you have six teachers. Each teacher teaches one class and that's it. If the teacher is out, you get one teacher in. You know, in secondary school, I've got 125 teachers teaching different subjects. It's a completely different ball game.
- [08:22]
John Brucato
So, sure.
- [08:23]
Cheryl Campbell
That was when I again, you know, having. Although I was an experienced school business manager, I was moving into a different phase. So at that point I thought, I need a mentor to help me through this. What I'm really fearful of is the unknown unknowns and how will I know what I don't know? So I sought somebody out to actually support me with. Just going through what happens each month within your school and what should I expect to see in my school? And that was sort of my first mentor relationship in 2019. And that was when I just put the handle together on Twitter and I thought, well, if this is happening to me, it's, you know, you don't have to be a new business manager. You can be at a different stage in your career and wanting different aspects of support. So that was really the realization that it wasn't just for new business managers. And I started it not expecting it to be much of anything. But it was actually quite interesting to see the different people who were then contacting me saying, well, actually I wouldn't mind being a mentor and people wanting to be mentors. And then I just took upon myself to say, well, I can match you up, you know, So I put the call out on Twitter and I had lots of people contacting me, you know, private messaging, saying, well, I'm happy to help, I'm happy to help. And it's about supporting the next round of business managers. So, I mean, it was a really interesting experience.
- [09:45]
John Brucato
That's fantastic. And for you just to kind of take this on your own, and it just really was a grassroots movement and to see it evolve is fantastic. So, you know, you've mentioned the importance of assessing experience and really the areas of support when really doing that matchmaking process of mentors and mentees. Could you talk to me and elaborate a little bit more on that process and what you did to kind of really make those matches meaningful?
- [10:09]
Cheryl Campbell
Sure. So the first step I take is I had lots of people contacting me volunteering to be mentors. So I spoke to each one of them and just said, give me a bit of background about you. So where do you work? You know, where are you located? Are you in the north of England? Are you in Scotland? You know, what the location is, what type of school you're in. So we have local authority schools who are led by the government. We have academies, we have primary, secondary, we have all through schools. So just understanding a bit about their experience and if they had particular aspects of the role that they specialized in, so just understanding what they had to offer, then when I got people asking for mentors, I would ask them again about what type of school they were working in. And if there was a particular part of the role they wanted support with, was it that they were new to the whole profession? Was it that they were moving and wanted a bit of support with, moving into that new phase? And that was really where I put together the matching process, because it was in that period, especially when it started to take off, it was in that pandemic period where a lot of the mentorship was then taking place online. So prior to that, I had been asking people, you know, looking for somebody within that local area so they could meet up and have sort of meetings. But actually it morphed into, well, it doesn't matter where you are, because we'll happily do this meeting, you know, we'll do a video call. We can do that once a week, once a month, however, whatever suits. But it was really about seeing what somebody has to offer and what the person, the mentee, having them think about what they actually want out of this process. So that those are the things that I try to match together.
- [11:51]
John Brucato
That's great. And I mean, you're. You're doing this like on kind of out of the goodness of your heart and the profession. I mean, were you, when you were making these matches, were you. Was that kind of it, you just kind of let the two individuals work with each other? Where did you stay in touch? Like, what was your role, if anything, kind of after that initial, like, matchmaking?
- [12:10]
Cheryl Campbell
So the. After the initial matchmaking? Well, I do, I do have a conversation with the mentors just to guide them in terms of setting guidelines and what the process should be and just saying, you know, it's really about the relationship you build with that person. There isn't a format that you need to follow. But equally, if it's not working, feel free to come back to me. You know, we cannot guarantee that it's going to work. And you know, right. This happens, relationships break down, people are too busy. So I have had people come back to me and say, you know, I've had this mental relationship. It's kind of fizzled out. Is there anybody else you could match me with or. Somebody's asked for a mentor, but they're not engaging with me. Are you sure they still want somebody to support them? So in various cases, I have still been involved just to see how things are ticking along. And quite often I've sort of checked in, say, you know, how's it going? Have you met up with this person? And just sort of checking in to see how it's going. But, you know, that's the extent of how I'm involved afterwards. And I've had good feedback as well, people coming back to me and saying, it's worked so well. Thank you so much. So that's quite nice to get that feedback.
- [13:13]
John Brucato
Yeah. You feel like actually those efforts are, you know, fruitful and things are coming to fruition. So that's great. When you were setting these up initially, did you kind of do any kind of like goal oriented conversations with the mentor and mentee or really just put it together to say, right, you know, you as a mentee, are looking for these certain qualifications. I found this mentor for you. And then, all right, so you guys figure out what you want to do, or did you kind of help facilitate how that relationship would be mutually beneficial?
- [13:42]
Cheryl Campbell
I think one of the most important thing was to speak to the mentors and get them to understand what their role was. So really saying to them, although you are, we're not dictating the format, it's important to understand what your role is. You're not there to do their job for them. You know, you're not there to support them. It's important to have an initial conversation to find out what each of you wants out of this. And, you know, it's not just all about the mentee. The mentor is getting something out of this. You're getting experience. This is development. So the biggest thing is making sure that you're both on the same page. And also I advise them that if it's not working, don't keep hashing away at it. You know that that is not beneficial for anybody. So if it's not working, you need to acknowledge that it's not working and have those honest conversations and check in to say, you know, we've been having this, these meetings for three months. How do you feel it's going? Do you feel as though we're progressing so just really being honest, I think that's the most important thing, that you're honest with each other about what you want to achieve at the start and revisiting that throughout your relationship. And there is no expectation that this is going to be a forever relationship. So understanding that there are boundaries and it will naturally come to an end, but you have to keep, that's the goal.
- [14:57]
John Brucato
Right, is to instill those values and those net knowledge onto a mentee so they don't need necessarily that mentor forever.
- [15:05]
Cheryl Campbell
And you know, sometimes it's just a time bound, single event that they want mentoring through.
- [15:11]
John Brucato
Sure. So Cheryl, I have to ask you, where did you find the time for all this? You know, being a practitioner myself, I know how grueling the job can be and how much time it takes to really just do the day to day. So how did you fit this into otherwise? A packed schedule, Sunday afternoons.
- [15:32]
Cheryl Campbell
Oh my God, Sunday afternoon is my time to check in on my Twitter messages, see if anybody's asked for a new mentor, see if anybody has put their hand up and said, I'm, I'm quite happy to be involved and just try and do a bit of math matching. I mean, in all honesty, it, it didn't need a lot of input from me. You know what, I was using the list feature on, on Twitter. So I had lists of people lined up and if people said, I want to be a mentor and once I knew what they were, I had a list of secondary school mentors, primary school mentors academy, you know, so I had the list lined up. So in reality it didn't take a lot of my time.
- [16:07]
John Brucato
That's great. So, so what are some of the common challenges you kind of seen crop up throughout this mentoring, mentoring process and relationships and how, how can they be addressed?
- [16:19]
Cheryl Campbell
I would say the common challenges are lack of direction. And I didn't put, I mean, this has really evolved. So I didn't start it up with, you know, a whole list of guidelines and a list of things that this is what you should be considering. So this evolved naturally. So it evolved because I was reacting to the challenges. So people had come back to me with feedback to say, you know, this person has asked for a mentor, but I'm not sure they actually know what they want to achieve out of it. And so that was, we addressed that by, by advising mentors to have the conversation at the beginning and just set out a couple of things that we were hoping to achieve. So that was one of the things that we addressed because people had gone into it Saying, oh, it'd be quite nice to have a mentor, but not actually knowing what they wanted a mentor for or what they were hoping.
- [17:04]
John Brucato
The idea of it is nice, but, you know, what does the day to day look like?
- [17:07]
Cheryl Campbell
It's nice to have someone to talk to, but not sure what I want to achieve from this. So that, I mean, that was one of the, that that challenge had come up quite a lot. And also one of the other challenges is mentors not actually having the time to engage. And that's quite a sad one because you feel as though you've got this person who's really going to guide you through and then actually they haven't got the time. And then you feel as though you're a burden because you're trying to keep contacting them. So it's again, asking mentors just to be realistic about what the mentor mentee relationship will look like and then being honest about whether you can fulfill that time commitment. So at the start, you need to really agree, we're going to meet once a week, and if you cannot afford the once a week time, then be honest about that at the very start and say that I could probably meet you every two weeks. We can drop emails in between, but we can have a meeting, an hour's meeting time blocked out once every two weeks or once a month. And if you decide that up front, then that's likely to be a more successful relationship. So that was one of the challenges that came up as well, that people had all the best intentions, but actually when it came down to it, they didn't have the time to give to be an effective mentor.
- [18:21]
John Brucato
You make such a good point. The timepiece is so crucial in, as you said it, just being honest with what the expectations are. Because as you were kind of going through that, I was thinking back to various points in my career where I was guilty of both sides, where I was a mentee and was looking for help, but I didn't really have a structured framework of really what I needed. It was like, oh, it'd be nice to just kind of lean on somebody. But in practicality, you can't just necessarily call somebody up out of the blue, like, hey, I'm dealing with this because the schedules may not match. And on the other side, as I became more experienced in the profession, I wanted to give back, I wanted to help, but realize that even the best intentions, I didn't have the time. And it was really a disservice to those that I was matched up with. So I think you make such A good point. Being able to be realistic with yourself and with others in terms of the expectation and the time commitment, because it is just that it is a big time commitment. And to your point, at the top of the episode, school business is very busy and there's little time. So it's, you know, whether you're carving time out on a Sunday afternoon or finding time over lunch or something, it's challenging. And I've, I've been a part of that. So I completely agree with you.
- [19:32]
Cheryl Campbell
And different people are looking for different things. So just because you're not able to commit the time to mentor this person, your time commitment could be perfect for somebody else. So I do still keep them on the roster and say, absolutely fine, I'll contact you when I have somebody else to match you up with. So I don't discourage anybody from being a mentor just because they're busy, but I just think it's important that they're honest about what they can. What they can commit, and then that pairing is then likely to be more successful.
- [20:01]
John Brucato
Such a great point. Can you share a success story that highlights really the impact of effective mentorship?
- [20:08]
Cheryl Campbell
I can share my own story, yeah. So having been having been in my position for quite a while, I mean, I think I was maybe, maybe two or three years in, and I felt as though I wasn't being strategic enough. And so I got myself a mentor. I matched myself up with a mentor just to help me work through that particular issue. So what does it mean?
- [20:35]
John Brucato
What do you mean?
- [20:36]
Cheryl Campbell
I mean, when it turned out that I was just hung up, I was just hung up on the role, on the word. I was just hung up on that word. And I felt as though a lot of my time was taking up doing operational things and, you know, authorizing an invoice here. And I just felt like I was being very, very operational and didn't feel as though I was operating at a strategic level. And so I. I got myself a mentor, and it was somebody I was already familiar with, but he was happy to mentor me in terms of working through this piece and seeing how I could really take, well, take an objective look at what I'm doing and whether it is strategic or not and how I can improve myself within the role. And that was so beneficial because it turned out I was being strategic, but I was just hung up on this word. And when we talked through, and we talked through, you know, what does your. What does your day to day look like? What does your term look like? So we work in terms rather than semesters. So we have three terms each year. So a term is sort of January to Easter. That's sort of the length of a term. So looking at what your terms look like and do you plan from term to term? Have you got a year plan? Have you got a five year plan? It was actually just. He helped me to recognize that yes, I still have to do operational things. It's part of my role. But I am in fact being strategic because I am planning ahead and I'm looking at how we can do things down the line. And if I wasn't planning ahead, you know, our budget was suddenly fall off a cliff because I hadn't bothered to look at what's happening in three years time.
- [22:10]
John Brucato
Right.
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Cheryl Campbell
So that was really successful for me because I needed that outside person to look objectively into what I was doing and help me work through that particular. Just that particular issue that I was having. So that was really a successful instance of somebody mentoring, but just for one particular issue and not a long term arrangement, but it really worked for me. Someone and I spoke with somebody who had been in the profession for such a long time and that was really useful.
- [22:37]
John Brucato
That's such a great story. Because you were doing the work and you were being strategic. It just took a conversation with somebody from a different perspective to kind of validate what you were doing. So even just having that as a support structure seems to have really given you credence in terms of yes, I am being strategic and I am thinking about it, but I'm just getting caught up in the day to day things.
- [22:59]
Cheryl Campbell
Yeah. And you know, don't get me wrong, I wasn't a perfect. I wasn't at a level of perfection. There were also things that he did.
- [23:05]
John Brucato
Sure.
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Cheryl Campbell
Tips on and said, you know, have you thought about doing things this way? Or why are you not delegating this particular piece of work to free some of your time up? So it was really useful to have somebody outside looking at how I structure my role and giving me some feedback. So there were definitely benefits that I got from that and I made changes in terms of my practice.
- [23:26]
John Brucato
Great. So we talked about mentorship and its importance. We also talked about the time commitment it takes for effective mentorship. Can you tell me about how schools and organizations can foster a culture that values and supports mentorship with school business professionals? Because it may take time out of the normal workday, people may not have the opportunity on the weekends. It could be any myriad of scenarios. How do you think an organization can really build a culture of mentorship?
- [23:55]
Cheryl Campbell
I think they have to be honest about the value that they place on it. So they have to not just, just talk the talk, but walk the walk and actually provide resources to support it. So, I mean, in terms of the role that we do, you're very often the only person doing that role. So it's difficult to find that mentorship within your organization. So really supporting, being supportive of networking, being supportive of allowing that time out to go to, you know, conferences, to go to training sessions where your staff are then able to liaise with like minded people and that's where they will be able to pick up mentors because they are liaising with people for all different stages in the same career who they're able to then talk to, to keep the connection with. But the organization needs to, they need to show that they place value on this. So you need to be able to allow that time out and you can't be out there thinking, oh my gosh, my emails are piling up. You need to be able to really concentrate on what you're doing. So even if you just go to one conference a year, being able to freely attend that conference and make those connections, because networking is absolutely key. It's absolutely key. And all your mentoring is not necessarily going to come from one person. So if you're out there networking, you are going to make those connections where you have somebody who could support you with your finance, but somebody else might support you with your human resources and just being able to identify your weaker areas where you may need support, you can then make those connections to get support in those actual areas and also putting it into the appraisal process. So we have a process where once a year all of our non teaching staff, they try to set three or four targets about what they would want to achieve in the next year. And so as part of that process, looking at the areas that they have self identified and maybe suggesting it as part of that process that they could have a mentor. If there are people within the organisation that could support with that, pairing them together. If you have a network yourself as a head teacher, you have a network of, you know, other headteachers and there are somebody within those schools that could support suggesting that through your networks as well. So not only allowing them the time out to network, but talking about it within school as part of that appraisal process. And that's something that we do quite well here.
- [26:18]
John Brucato
Great, you spoke to it a little bit as we were talking about fostering culture. But what role do professional associations play in promoting mentorship? I mean, we Have Basbo International, we have the, you know, you have the Regional Institute of School Business Leadership. There's, there's many different associations all over the world. What role do those organizations play in mentorship?
- [26:43]
Cheryl Campbell
I think those organizations need to also be engaged in supporting and supporting the idea of mentorship, but also promoting it and talking about it. So, you know, publishing articles, but also connecting people as well. Institute of School Business Leadership, they have such a wide ranging membership. It's very easy to reach out and say, you know, is there anybody that could mentor me? You know, you could put something out in their magazine that goes out and covers lots of members. I think organizations, the professional organizations are key in this because they can actually connect the dots. And they have this membership that covers everybody. And you know, Twitter is such a tiny part, or X as it's now called, but it's such a tiny part of the universe. And these memberships are, that's what they're there for. They're for our members. So, you know, they owe it to their members to be able to connect the dots and also to be able to promote this as something that can help with development.
- [27:47]
John Brucato
Great. So as part of the introduction, I had mentioned, you're the founder of abled. Can you tell me a little bit more about that organization and then how do you see mentorship also contributing to greater diversity, inclusion within school business leadership?
- [28:03]
Cheryl Campbell
Sure. So, I mean, Able Ed came about because I was part of research that looked at how many school business leaders. It looked at the diversity of school business leaders across the uk and out of that research came the figures that they were 14 people who had responded to that. So out of nearly 900 people who responded, 14 of them identified. I mean, that's a tiny number. 14 people identified as black or Asian. And so that really got my brain thinking that I know there are more of them out there, so why have they not engaged with this survey? But actually, how are they visible? How are they becoming visible? So that was really my reasoning for starting this organization and just hoping to have a vehicle to amplify voices and just become more visibility. And it's a bit like what people say about pupils. You know, you can't be what you can't see. And I just thought, you know, I'm here, I'm in this profession, and there's no harm in me speaking up. And it will encourage other people to speak up and say, you know, what can we do to raise visibility? So that was really the reason that I started that organization in the first place. And some of the things that it's done to contribute. So one of the things we started at the very beginning is we, we had some sponsorship from some organizations that helped us to put bursaries in place. And they were aimed at people from these communities who wanted to get into school business leadership but didn't know where to start. And one of our really great success stories was the first recipient of that bursary was working in an administrative role in a school office. And she signed up for this bursary and it supported her to get the qualification that was a foundation level qualification, that was an entry into school business leadership. And she has gone from strength to strength. I still keep in contact with her and she has now become on to be a fully fledged school business leader.
- [29:56]
John Brucato
Wow.
- [29:57]
Cheryl Campbell
And so that, that was really heartening to see that happen. And that's just something. And I've had conversations with people who have contacted me to say, you know, what can I do to take the next steps? And I go to conferences and I look around and there aren't people that look like me. You know, then I feel like I don't want to go to the conferences. And I said, we have to keep going, we have to keep going. And that's why I feel like I need to still be visible so people know that we are out there, we're part of the community and just, you know, supporting, just supporting each other.
- [30:31]
John Brucato
Great. So. So what strategies do you think could be employed to ensure that mentorship programs, maybe like more of the semi informal ones that you have set up, or more formal programs, are accessible and supportive for professionals with diverse backgrounds?
- [30:45]
Cheryl Campbell
And I think you mentioned something, the key point about formalize and informalize, I think, and everything I've done is very informal. There's no structure behind it, there's no funding behind it. And I think if organizations really want to get on board, you know, they could set up formal mentorship programs.
- [31:02]
John Brucato
Sure.
- [31:02]
Cheryl Campbell
I mean, that's a key start because anything that has any resources behind it is more likely to flourish and be successful. So really, really committing to the resources that will make this mentorship program sustainable. And once they are formalized, making sure they're highly visible, making sure everybody knows that they are available and talking about the success stories. So, you know, people are drawn to things that are successful. So really championing and celebrating successes, you know, mentorship, like we said earlier, mentorship relationships do not have to go on forever. They can be short and sweet, but they are successful. So why are we not talking about how successful they are? People that have gone through the ranks and reached very senior positions, talking about their experiences and it may be a mentor that they had, you know, 20 years ago at a start of their journey, but talking about those, recounting those, and make it a highly visible part of development so people can see that it's part of your development in your journey.
- [32:07]
John Brucato
Great. So someone listening may be inspired by what you've been doing and the mentor mentee process. What advice would you be able to give somebody seeking a mentor in the school business field?
- [32:22]
Cheryl Campbell
I think I would say if you're seeking a mentor, firstly have that conversation with yourself or jot down a few things, right, you know, write a few things down in a notebook to be really clear about what you're looking for. You know, what sort of, what are you looking for from a mentor relationship? Because like I say, you know, people think, oh, that would be nice to have, and then haven't actually considered what they're trying to achieve. So before even seeking the mentor, understanding what you would like out of this process, is this to help you with your, you know, are you not yet in the profession? Is this to help you get into the profession? Is it to help you break into it? Is it to help you progress into your first senior role? Is this just one part of your, your performance that you need some support with? Or is this to become, you know, a C suite role? Is this something you need support with? So really understanding what exactly you're seeking from the role? Because if you're clear about it, that helps with the relationship from, from the off. So I think that's really important. But also networking, networking and seeing who's out there and seeing who could support you and what could help you. You know, when you network, you come across so many different people. The one thing about this role is that probably no two job descriptions are the same. You know, school business leaders are doing a range of different jobs and it ranges from a school business leader in a small primary school who actually has to be hands on and do everything, or you might have a chief finance officer across an academy Trust that has 15 schools. You know, we're all school business leaders but we have very different jobs and so understanding what you want from that relationship. But who would be a suitable mentor? Who would be suitable? What skills do they have that you're looking for that they could impart the knowledge onto you? I think networking is key, but also knowing what you want from the relationship, there's no point going out and just looking for a blanket mentor. You have to know what you want and understanding that you will not necessarily get that all from one person and that, you know, you're not looking for a mentor, you know, for the rest of your days, but the mental relationship could be three months, and that could support you with moving on to the next stage.
- [34:34]
John Brucato
Great. Well, Cheryl, thank you so much for sitting down with me today, but especially all the fantastic work you're doing for enhancing the profession and taking your own personal time to connect to the mentors and mentees. It really is inspiring and I hope everyone has gotten something out of this today. So thank you again.
- [34:51]
Cheryl Campbell
You are very welcome and I've enjoyed it.
- [34:55]
John Brucato
Thank you for tuning in to School Business Insider. Make sure to check back each week for your favorite topics on school business.