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- [00:01]
John Brucat
Hey there, insiders. If you're loving these episodes, don't keep them to yourself. Like, subscribe and rate the show. Think of it as your good deed for the day. No spreadsheets or budget meetings required. Every rating helps us share the secrets of school business magic with the world, or at least school business leaders. So hit that subscribe button and leave us a review. It's like extra credit, but way easier. Thanks for helping us spread the word and support smarter schools everywhere. You're listening to ASPO International's School Business Insider. I'm your host, John Brucat. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello everyone, and welcome back. Today's episode is an inspiring one, focusing on resilience, perseverance, and the power of never giving up on your goals. Joining me is Dr. Michael Lewis, a highly talented and dedicated school business official who, despite facing significant professional challenges over the last few years, remains determined to continue his career in education. Dr. Lewis has had a tough journey, but his story is one of optimism and an unwavering commitment to making a difference in the field of school business management. Michael, welcome to the podcast. I'm happy to have you.
- [01:35]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Thanks, John.
- [01:36]
John Brucat
So I wanted to tell your story. You and I have known each other for some time now, and I think yours is something that will resonate with a lot of our listeners because you were in it for the right reasons. You went through some tough times, as I said, but really just want to kind of explore where you're at today, what you've been through and where you see yourself kind of going in the future. But before we get into all of that, maybe just give our audience a little bit bit of your background and you know who you are as a person.
- [02:03]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure, no problem. So I started my career 20 years ago as a school psychologist and worked as a school psychologist in an urban school district for about a dozen years and then went into educational leadership. So I was. For the last eight years, I've been in various roles in a few different districts. I've been a special education director, a student services director, director of curriculum and instruction. Most recently, I was the assistant superintendent for business and human resources.
- [02:36]
John Brucat
So you have a large swath of experience. Tell me why you eventually landed on school business. I mean, you obviously come from the school psych and educational side for the most part. But why school business?
- [02:50]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I have always been interested in school business and finance. It was one of those things where my work as a psychologist is very analytical in nature. And a lot of the work I was doing on special assignment had to do with grant applications and running competitive grant programs, and there's a lot of finance built into that. So I was always indirectly, in a lot of ways, connected with the school business world, if not directly. And after, or rather during COVID I took that opportunity to go and earn my SDBL certificate and really try and officially get into the field.
- [03:34]
John Brucat
Which SDBL being the certification you need to kind of hold the seat. Right. In the state of New York.
- [03:39]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure. School district business leader certificate. Yeah.
- [03:42]
John Brucat
So when you were in the position, I mean, as you said, you'd worked closely with school business officials before. You and I worked closely together at a district together. Was it what you expected, kind of from the outside looking in and then sitting in the chair itself?
- [03:57]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I would say that the majority of it was what I expected. And the things that weren't what I expected were the most challenging pieces of it. So what I mean by that is I expected to be sitting in a lot of meetings. I expected to be signing a lot of forms. I expected to be having challenging conversations about the budget.
- [04:21]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [04:23]
Dr. Michael Lewis
What I truly was not prepared for was the perception that my role is a means to an end for other leaders and not necessarily a supportive position, but the position that you have to go through to do the things you want.
- [04:43]
John Brucat
Interesting. So you've had some ups and you've had some downs over the last few years. Walk us through kind of what your journey has been in most recent history.
- [04:53]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure. I think for this topic, the most recent position is really the most relevant. So I was appointed as the school business official in a local school district, and it was actually a promotion. So I was serving as the director of special education, was encouraged to apply for the business official position and earned it. I applied for, interviewed against other candidates, and was appointed to the position. That role was my most recent in education and was also the role that I served the shortest amount of time in because of several of the challenges that I ended up facing while I was in that role.
- [05:38]
John Brucat
Did a lot of the experience that you had as special ed director and your prior experience kind of translate to the school business official role? And did that kind of help you kind of catapult yourself into the position?
- [05:50]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Yeah, I mean, I was always encouraged in the role. I enjoyed most of the work, and I do think my other Positions prepared me. I always tell people special education is the most complicated, the most litigated and the most expensive area of public education. And I actually think that was probably the best training for being a business official because there are so many regulations and there are so many nuances and things are very expensive. You have to project a budget multiple years out for students. Surprises happen all the time in special education, just lives in school finance. And having those experiences really did give me a better understanding and better preparation for kind of how to handle those unanticipated things that happen throughout your day and throughout your seasonal cycle in a school business position.
- [06:49]
John Brucat
And I have to imagine that helped your conversations with your curriculum folks and your special education departments. You now sitting as a business official and having done their work, tell me a little bit about that relationship you had with them.
- [07:03]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So the relationship with my peers was always very positive. I think that my experiences in curriculum and working in schools is becoming a little more unique, I think in the field. My impression is that there are, in my experiences are that business officials now, if they worked in education at all prior, maybe were not necessarily in a student focused or student centered field. So I spent 12 years working directly in schools with students and family directly, and then went into administration. So the administrators I worked with were happy to know that there was a business official that actually does know what it's like when your school book budget is cut by 3% and how many books that actually translates to, for example, or, you know, my special ed director being very happy that I actually understood how much it is for a student to go to a residential treatment program when it's mandated and is necessary. And you know, I think that those experiences really led me to have a very positive working environment with those colleagues that I had.
- [08:17]
John Brucat
So tell me a little bit about your experience that contributed to kind of these tough situations in recent history. And how'd you really initially cope with some of these setbacks?
- [08:29]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure. So the. I think I kind of alluded to this earlier. The challenges were not so much with the day to day work. You know, I got great evaluations from my superintendent. I got positive feedback from people. I was accepted into the school community. The issues came about when I would need to follow what I thought was the best process for something. And that, as it often does, tends to slow things down.
- [09:01]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [09:02]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So, you know, for example, I had a professor when I was earning my certificate who was fond of saying, you know, people don't go to jail if kids can't read, but they do if they Mess around with public money.
- [09:16]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [09:17]
Dr. Michael Lewis
And I took that to heart because it's very true. You know, when you go through an audit and. Or the state comptroller decides to pick your district, they're not focused on reading, writing, and math scores. They're focused on, do you know where those 18 computers are? And why did they cost $58 for a piece of software instead of $52 for a piece of software? So I took that to heart, and I viewed my role as a facilitator. It really wasn't ever my decision what we were going to do. My decision was how we were going to get there financially to be able to do it. And there were numerous times when I think the competing interests of a district leader would come up against my office. So, for example, the superintendent might want to sell a piece of district equipment, and there's a very specific process for that. Accessing it, putting it on an auction, and that's to protect the public interest and ensure that the district is getting as much as possible for it.
- [10:20]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [10:21]
Dr. Michael Lewis
That process can take a couple months. This superintendent wanted this piece of equipment sold immediately, and that created some conflict. My issue was never about the what. It was always about the how. And that's always what I, you know, when I teach students, graduate students, and I and I mentor, that's always what I focus on. You have to have a defensible process, regardless of the outcome. And the process that I often would recommend would not be as expedient as would be preferred all the time.
- [10:57]
John Brucat
So I imagine you upholding your defensible process, being a facilitator, and making sure that you're not going to jail because the finances are in order and those computers are accounted for. Sounds like there was a little bit of a mismatch in terms of expectation and process. How did you really go about handling those situations? I mean, I imagine, you know, being in the role, being new to the role, not necessarily new to district, was a little bit challenging, a little bit awkward. How do you approach that?
- [11:27]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So I always try to approach it from a very targeted and rational perspective. Here's the thing that you want, here's the process that I would like to follow, and here is the outcome that you're going to get. ABC and my approach was always to explain the why. So I talk a lot about that when I talk with people. Also, people have trouble with the decision when they don't understand why the decision was made. I think that even if people disagree with the decision, as long as they understand why a decision was made, they are typically more accepting of it. I would always go into those challenging conversations saying, here's why I would like to follow this process, or here's why I think that allocation is more appropriate now or more appropriate to wait a year on, you know, things like that. You know, to give a specific example, especially business officials are very often involved in construction and capital improvements. Of course, there are methods in. In our state of New York where you can do an energy performance agreement for various electrical and electrical upgrades. If you do an energy performance agreement outside of a public referendum, you get 10% less. In state eight, that's just a rule.
- [13:00]
John Brucat
Which is a very nuanced thing with the state of New York. That usually isn't the case across the U.S. i found out recently.
- [13:07]
Dr. Michael Lewis
And as is often the case in New York, things are sometimes a little more complicated, but the rules are the rules, and my job as the business official is to protect as much public of the public dollar as I can. So my recommendation was to hold off on a project and put it into the next capital project through a referendum to capture that extra 10% of the state aid. And now in this particular project, that might have only been $100,000 of additional aid, but to me, that $100,000 is a teacher salary with benefits.
- [13:41]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [13:42]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So I was looking at a comprehensive perspective, and I think that that's where competing interests comes into play. The situation is often one where a business official and a superintendent might not be in full agreement because the business official's job is to follow those procedures and handle financing. Whereas the superintendent is clearly the most political position in all of the district and isn't necessarily as focused on the procedure and the outcome as getting the thing on the campus that the community is interested in seeing and all the things that go around that. So that was often the situation that I found myself in.
- [14:27]
John Brucat
So where do you draw the line between making a recommendation and making a decision in those instances?
- [14:34]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So my. Again, I would always say that my role as a facilitator, ultimately the superintendent is the person who is appointed to make the final decision on things like this. So my goal would always be as an advisor to give as many different options as possible. Sometimes I thought there was only one option, sometimes there might have been several. Sometimes there were situations where I would want to offer alternative perspectives just for a complete picture to be offered, and then it's really up to the superintendent to decide which of those pathways to pick. So there were a few times when I made recommendations that just weren't Accepted, which was fine. That's part of the job.
- [15:21]
John Brucat
I was going to say with the example with the energy performance contract, a difference of $100,000. Obviously leveraging as much state money as you can makes the most financial sense, because that's less that the taxpayers have to kind of wear on their shoulders. Is there a point where you just say, okay, whatever, we'll do what you want to do, but this isn't necessarily the best move?
- [15:44]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So that's a situation that I face frequently in my particular environment. It wasn't as important what my opinion was. It was more important to do whatever was requested as quickly as possible.
- [16:02]
John Brucat
So when you were in these conversations, I'm sure things got out. People are aware of decisions that are being made in the school district and the community. In the back of your mind, were you thinking, also, you're also setting the tone for your business office and the expectations that you are going to uphold with. With your staff. I mean, it's not just necessarily a conversation between you and the superintendent all the time. There are ramifications in terms of broader expectations, in terms of professionalism and performance. Did you ever have that kind of swirling around as you're having these conversations, these tough conversations?
- [16:37]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I frequently did, and I think part of the reason for that really goes back to my original training as a psychologist. We're focused intensely on confidentiality, on ethical decision making, on appropriate professional conduct. So those have always been core principles of me, and I believe they're core principles of many, many educators, if not all. However, I would be often in a situation where I felt like my ethics were being compromised. And it wasn't so much my office as it was the, you know, my. My professional reputation as well as that of the district. You know, no one is ever permanent in a school district. And what would be on my mind was not so much me or any other specific administrator. It was, what if this school district I work for is now perceived as financially irresponsible or focusing on priorities that don't necessarily reflect the best student need? You know, things like that were often on my mind.
- [17:54]
John Brucat
What about you mentioned professional reputation, but what about your reputation and your credibility with your staff and with not just maybe your business office staff, but staff amongst the entirety of the district? Was that ever a concern of yours? Because I think as an assistant superintendent especially, or someone who's higher up in the organization, I would assume you just don't want to be a yes man or a pushover or whatever. Did. Did that ever kind of creep in your mind as well, like you wanted to protect that image.
- [18:24]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I. It was on my mind. But I came into this system having had a lot of prior experiences and after the organization had some pretty consistent leadership at the top for a very long time. And the reason I'm saying it that way is to help establish that the culture was pretty well set there. You know, I didn't come in expecting to be anyone that was going to change the culture there. And believe it or not, the culture was one where a lot of those people who you're referencing, business office, staff, union leadership, they were actually very supportive of me because they understood. They were aware of the situation. Yeah, they understood a lot better than I did the culture of the system and how, you know, when there's. When. When you're in a system that had 70% of your district administrators turn over in a decade, that, you know, that creates an environment where one individual is not really going to be able to make a lot of change quickly. So I did what I could do, and I focused on small victories here and there and making sure that I could make some decisions and act in a way that made people feel supported. And then you just kind of build on those smaller actions.
- [19:46]
John Brucat
So did you find yourself in a position of survival instead of thriving? I mean, is that really what it turned into? Because what you were saying, you're walking into a culture that is pretty well galvanized. It would be tough for one person to change that. And it sounds like it was somewhat of a revolving door. Were you surviving or were you thriving there?
- [20:07]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I would say both. It was without doubt the most challenging position I've held in my 20 years of working in public education. At the same time, it was also the one that I liked the most, if I had to rank them. This job was absolutely my most favorite position that I've held. And I've held, what, a good half dozen different kinds of positions at all levels?
- [20:31]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [20:32]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So. So in a way, I thrived because I am someone who personally focuses very intensely on good relationships. So when I did my work, I was able to establish those good relationships. I was able to be seen as a supportive individual for people. That's where I thrived. You know, I was also learning a lot. It was my first position as an assistant superintendent or school business official. So it doesn't really matter how much training you have and how much ancillary experience you have, you're never going to really know that role until you serve in it for a couple years.
- [21:09]
John Brucat
Right.
- [21:10]
Dr. Michael Lewis
At least. And so I was. I was Always learning. I was always meeting people who could help me understand more detailed situations in the field. So that was very exciting for me and I thrived in those contexts where I was surviving was really in how to manage expectations of people over you. When there's not so much focus on the how, there's just the focus on.
- [21:40]
John Brucat
The what it being your favorite job, I have to imagine it was challenging to ultimately part ways. How did that kind of alter your mindset as a leader in education?
- [21:52]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So when I made the decision to resign, I was really making it for the. To give me the ability to maintain a sense of personal. I guess integrity is one word. I was at a point where I was just not coming into work every day feeling like I was going to be able to maintain a positive environment for people that I. That I felt responsible to.
- [22:27]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [22:29]
Dr. Michael Lewis
My. My impression is that that was. That was understood by a lot of others in the time that from when I left to today, three other key district personnel also left that office. So I think that that sort of lends itself to kind of supporting my decision, even though it was a drastic one.
- [22:51]
John Brucat
So kind of validation in a sense.
- [22:53]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Yeah, it was validating because it was something where when that kind of change happens, you know, it wasn't about you. You know, like there's a lot of doubt that the self doubt that comes in when you make a decision like this because obviously there's disruption in your life when you decide to quit a job.
- [23:14]
John Brucat
Right.
- [23:15]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So the fact that I was creating that disruption, but that other people also decided to go in that same direction was in a way helpful.
- [23:28]
John Brucat
You know, you mentioned self doubt. Where do you find strength kind of pushing yourself through that? Because it is very disruptive. I mean, depending on everyone's individual situation, could be primary source of income. You have a certain way of living. I mean, there's a lot that is upended if you decide to leave a position, especially if you don't have something kind of teed up to follow that. Talk to me about that strength you found in these moments of doubt.
- [23:53]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure. So there were a lot of moments of doubt to be. To be real clear about that. There were. There were many times when I was thinking I would rather deal with a challenging situation that I didn't feel great about than. Than be in this insecure and unsecured position in life. I really. I focused on. On rituals and routines, you know, keeping. Keeping up with the same, you know, the same kinds of situations like waking up at. Every day at the same time, going to bed at the same time every day. Like those routines that would have happened if you had normally kept your position to maintain some of those. Staying in touch with people was a big one for me because the more people I kept in touch with, the more. The more I was validated. Right. The more interaction I had with people, the more people understood where and why I ended up making the decision that I did. I would say another thing is being kind to yourself. You know, a lot of times it's hard for people to be kind to themselves when they make a decision. That was hard. And it's easy to be mean and it's hard to be kind, especially to yourself. So to focus on that kind of. That kind of action was helpful for me.
- [25:23]
John Brucat
Well, it sounds like you also maintained your identity and who you were, not just as an individual, but as a professional in this industry. Did that kind of keep you moving forward? I mean, the routine is really important. But to me, you're still a business official. Right. Even though maybe you're not currently practicing? I mean.
- [25:41]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Right. I always have the certification. Yeah.
- [25:43]
John Brucat
Right. So what about that? Was that kind of keeping you moving forward as well by just kind of still identifying with the industry in some capacity? Because it's not like you just threw this out and you're like, I'm never going back, Right?
- [25:55]
Dr. Michael Lewis
No, I did not leave this position in a permanent way. I definitely want to continue in the field in some fashion. However, I think the connection and the connection to the field for me after I left was valuable because it helped me understand that people who leave leave for a variety of reasons. And if you'll bear with me for a minute to explain that there's a stigma that comes with this that I wasn't prepared for. And I think one of the things I would want listeners to know about is that, at least in my experiences, and I think that of many in public education, there's this assumption that if you leave a district, you did something wrong and that no one ever leaves a public education job. You know, there's that perspective out there that I knew was out there, but it never impacted me. So I didn't think too much about it. However, upon leaving, it became immediately clear to me that many people would automatically assume that something bad happened and that only people who really knew the role would understand that it doesn't have to be that something bad happened for someone like a business official to leave.
- [27:24]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [27:25]
Dr. Michael Lewis
And I think that's because of the nature of the job. We're in a very high profile role. We're ultimately responsible for, in some cases, tens to hundreds of millions of dollars of public money. There's. There's a lot of prestige that comes with it, but there's also a lot of pressure that comes with it. And I think staying connected to the field helped me kind of, I guess, work through some of the negative comments that were out there or the negative perceptions that are out there, you know, based on just general assumptions that people never leave a public education job.
- [28:08]
John Brucat
So in that same vein, how concerned were you with telling your story? I mean, I know it's kind of a fine line to walk, and there's only so much you can divulge in those conversations. I have to imagine that seeing some of that negativity come your way, knowing that full well you were in the right. How do you grapple with that?
- [28:28]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I think that one of the keys is to remember and remind yourself that, you know, you made the best decisions you could in the situation that you were in and not necessarily focus on everything that's out there. There's a lot of people who have a lot to say without a lot of knowledge about the situation, and it's not really your job to educate them on that. You know, you. You're not responsible for convincing everyone that what you did was right. You're responsible for making sure that what you did was in your best interests and that you're able to move on from whatever environment you were in before.
- [29:08]
John Brucat
You had mentioned therapy as one of your outlets. Was it helpful to have an independent party kind of talk it through with you, who likely doesn't know what a school business official is, but is able to kind of talk through your experience as a human being. How was that?
- [29:24]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So. So my therapist certainly did not know anything about school business and finance, and I guess I would be. I would be worried if they did, in a way. But. Although I guess I am also a licensed psychologist who knows a lot about school business officials, so maybe. Maybe I'm one of those.
- [29:43]
John Brucat
It's not totally outside of the realm of possibility, right?
- [29:45]
Dr. Michael Lewis
No, I guess it's not. I guess it's not. So I guess. I guess the reason why therapy was helpful for me is not because of an independent assessment of the situation, but someone who is just responsible for only supporting you. And that's why I think therapy works. Like, I kind of choked. But it's true. I am a licensed psychologist, so I do believe in therapy at the same very on brand. Right. At the same time, one of the values in therapy is that you can go into it without an expectation of judgment. So I never went into my experience with counseling hoping to be validated. Right. I went in hoping to be supported, and I was. The validation came from the things that I mentioned before, other people making the same choice I did. My business official colleagues in the region explicitly telling me they know I'm a good person and they don't think this had anything to do with things I did and that they understood my decision given the culture that I was existing in. So I got kind of unbridled support through counseling and validation through my professional connections.
- [31:16]
John Brucat
You're a very self reflective individual when you think back to those times, and I'm sure you have many, many times yourself, Is there anything you think you could have done differently to still be there, or was there just no getting around the challenges you were facing? And ultimately, I think you made the right decision. But do you think thinking back, would you have done anything differently to kind of salvage what you had?
- [31:39]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So if there, if there are future school business officials who are listening to this, I think the best way I can answer your question is by giving them advice. And my advice is be very, very purposeful about the decisions you make when you go into one of these roles. Be purposeful about where, be purposeful about why, be purposeful about when do your research. And to be fair, I, as I said, I liked my job. My job was great a lot of the time, and it was not great a couple of times that were significant. So for me, I think when I reflect on it, I should have done something that I was very specifically taught in a development program I went through. And that's called like a district, like an investigation. You know, your train superintendents who are, who are guided through this application process.
- [32:47]
John Brucat
Your district scam.
- [32:49]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Yeah, they're taught to scan the district, you know, who's on the board, how long have they been there, what's their budget, look at their audits, you know, how many teachers do they like? You look at, you look at a comprehensive perspective of the system. And I did not do that. I applied because I was already in that district and I was encouraged to apply for the job. To me, that was, that seemed good enough. And I think in retrospect, had I slowed that decision making process down, I would have decided to pause and not try and get that assistant superintendency as fast as possible and maybe slow the process down a little bit, which is almost never a bad thing, and be a little bit more purposeful about where I was going to apply or when I was going to apply or, you know, what the environment was like in those other openings that came up in the future.
- [33:52]
John Brucat
I'm curious about that. You know, would you have known, though? I mean, it sounds like a lot of your struggles were internal. How would an average community member or potential job seeker be aware of that? Or was or is the reputation such that that's obvious. Have you done a little more digging?
- [34:12]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I think it's that. I think that had I done a little more digging or had I been around that system longer, maybe I would have been a little more aware of it. I was only in the system for about four months before I was encouraged to apply for this position that I ended up leaving. And when I left, and I think this is why I think it was, had I done more research, I would have found out when I had left, a teacher made a comment, well, there goes another one referencing the administrative turnover in the system. And that's not, that's just not something I was aware of. Had I been there longer, I probably would have been more aware of it. And that's usually, that's usually a red flag for a system when you have a significant amount of administrative turnover.
- [35:00]
John Brucat
So when you're in a culture that seems a little bit disruptive, when do you make a decision to try and change it for the better or realize that it's just not going to work out? I mean, is there. I'm sure it's nuanced in every single situation, but I would imagine you don't want to be part of a culture that is that toxic. Where do you see yourself fitting in as a change agent or how do you make a decision to ultimately say that, all right, well, this isn't for me. I have to seek something else.
- [35:31]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So for me to just essentially be proud of myself and also feel like I'm trying to do good, I always focused on making good choices, making things as good as I possibly could in the environment for the people who worked for me directly and the people who I worked for, staff, students, families. And when that stopped becoming a possibility, I think that's when I started moving more in the direction of this is not going to be the best fit.
- [36:09]
John Brucat
And we don't talk a lot about the political nature of the job. But to your point earlier, it's a high profile position and there is a level of politics involved, maybe not so much as the superintendent in the board of education, but what was your experience in the political game of the position? What was your experience in terms of how you were able to navigate that.
- [36:32]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So I, I was not aware of the level of politics that came into this position in this system.
- [36:44]
John Brucat
Are you talking specifically about the. About my position?
- [36:47]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Right. And I want to say it that way on purpose. Not every business official is in a highly politically charged environment where there's a lot of stress and where people are really hyper focused on that kind of stuff. Not every. In fact, probably most jobs are not that we could probably agree. This one, however, was. And it's just a. It's just a systemic thing, you know, a smaller community, a very high teacher residency rate in the district. I think when you have those much closer connections that in many cases span generations, you end up with a more political environment. I was not quite as prepared for that as I probably should have been. But what I fell back on is defensible decision making, you know.
- [37:36]
John Brucat
But how can you prepare for that, though?
- [37:39]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Well, I guess that's a good question. I don't think that you necessarily can because what it does. Is it for you to behave politically in our kind of role. I don't always think is great because it puts you in a constant defensive position.
- [37:56]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [37:57]
Dr. Michael Lewis
You're constantly focusing on what people are thinking about your decision as opposed to what you think the best decision is. Right. And that's why you're right. You probably can't fully prepare for the politics of it. So what I did was I focused on, again, making sure that I could articulate why I made a choice or a recommendation. Making sure that the things that I did with my time, my work, day to day, was really geared towards helping people and making people, you know, feel like they're. Like they have people working for them. That's always been a big piece of my, of my work is, you know, I term it service leadership. But, you know, my job is to make sure that everyone else can do their job with as little disruption as possible. And I work very hard to make that. To make that true.
- [38:49]
John Brucat
Sure. Yeah. I think the political aspect is just something that is challenging to teach in a typical classroom setting because you could do so many case studies and present so much data. But until you're in it and maybe your stomach's sinking because it's not going your way. I mean, you don't know until you live through it and you survive it. So, I mean, kudos to you to being able to recognize that, but also being able to navigate it in such a way where you realize this isn't for me, I need to step away from it. It's for your, for your own, your own Self worth, your own identification. Like this isn't it? But where was kind of the board of Education in all of this? The assistant superintendent, a lot of the time has a relationship with the board. Where did they fit into this experience of yours?
- [39:40]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I did not have a huge degree of interaction with them. The way the system was structured, I would have, you know, finance committee meetings quarterly. My role was not one where I had frequent and direct contact with the board of Ed.
- [39:59]
John Brucat
So more of a formal relationship.
- [40:01]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Yeah. Like, I mean, I was present at board meetings. I would answer any questions I was asked. I would give presentations as requested. However, I did not have a very, like, interactive and personal relationship with much of the board. And. Well, I don't. I don't want to say that. I think that. I mean, in New York state, there's almost 700 school districts and there's probably 700 different styles of boards of education working.
- [40:31]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [40:32]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I think it just. I never felt like there was an issue with the board. I never felt like there was a concern there. If there was, it was certainly never anything that was discussed with me. And I think that I don't work for the board. I work for the superintendent and the superintendent works for the board. Like, that's, that's kind of the structure here in New York. So, you know, it didn't seem particularly unusual to me that the superintendent was the primary person to interact and to communicate with them.
- [41:05]
John Brucat
Got it. So let's focus on the future. I mean, you're actively seeking a new school business official job. What are you looking for in a new prospect? I mean, what is Michael Lewis looking for in a job that he's going to excel in?
- [41:19]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure. So I went through a very specific, almost a protocol of a decision making process after I left my role to decide what I wanted to do next. And that actually resulted in a couple different things. First, even though I graduated 19 years ago, I never actually sat for my licensure exam as a psychologist until a few months ago. I started working in the school district and I became an educational leader. And that's a very serious and very long national exam. So I just kind of put it on the back burner and I said, this is now an opportunity to kind of complete that, that task, so to speak, that expectation that when you get a doctorate, you typically sit for the licensure exam. So I did that, and that's opened up some opportunity for me. I think the other part of the decision making I went through is what I really want to do. And I think when you're an educational leader and you're looking for a new job. There's this tendency to apply for everything because you want a job. Yeah.
- [42:28]
John Brucat
Just to see what sticks. Right, right.
- [42:30]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Like, you know, maybe you'll get lucky and you'll get this job. And it's not a job you love, but it's a job. And I just decided that that probably wasn't in my best interest. And clearly that kind of thing didn't always work out for me. So I think that what I decided was there were a couple of different jobs that I'm willing to do and that I want to do because they're the things that are going to make me happy. So, yes, as you mentioned, one of those is a school business official. I really want to focus my time with urban districts or with districts that have economic need. I'll put it that way. I've worked in all sorts of districts, from 7,000 student urban districts to 700 student rural districts. That is my favorite space to work in is, you know, generally speaking, high economic need systems. It's just something that's always, I found very rewarding. It's. It's a place where I think I can add a lot of value. So. So that's actually how I'm focusing my work on the where, not necessarily the what. I have decided that while I will actively seek school business official positions, I'm also comfortable serving in other roles if they're in those kinds of systems.
- [43:50]
John Brucat
Sure.
- [43:52]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So, for example, I'm not opposed to being a school psychologist. Again, if it's in the right place, working with the right kind of students. I would prefer to be a business official and contribute that way. But again, it's. For me, it's now, which kind of system, not what's the title of the job.
- [44:12]
John Brucat
To your earlier point, when you were originally looking at this position as assistant superintendent, you had remarked that maybe you should have done a little bit more research, been a little bit more patient. Do you find it difficult to be patient searching for a job when you're unemployed? I mean, is it tough to keep in your mind that I need to find the right job, not just a.
- [44:33]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Job that is very, very hard? I think that I am lucky because I am in a personal situation where if I don't work for a little while, my family is going to be okay and I'm going to be okay. Not everyone is in that situation. So there's a privilege there that I have that many people don't. But I do think that, you know the phrase patience is a virtue is out there for a reason. So yes, it's a challenge every day to want to do something and to, you know, be involved in a system again and, and you know, be interacting with people on a daily basis, a lot of people, as we often do on a daily basis. However, it's more important to be in the right role than it is to have everything you want. This moment. So I have taken a long play here and focused more on where I would want to be and doing what as opposed to again, just kind of applying for everything and seeing what sticks.
- [45:44]
John Brucat
So when you inevitably will interview and find a new position, have you given any thought about how you're going to tell your story? Because when districts are looking at resumes, a lot of it is looking at employment history and qualifications. They'll see a short stint. What is that story?
- [46:02]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Yeah, so that's the resume gap question.
- [46:07]
John Brucat
Sabbatical, right?
- [46:09]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Yeah. Well, so it's funny that you say sabbatical. It was a self imposed sabbatical. There's also a lot of writing out there now in the media about like midlife work breaks, which I don't know, I can't yet tell if those articles are a euphemism or if they are actually people. No, I got another 10 to 20 years left. I'm going to take a little bit of time off, a little bit of a breather. Right.
- [46:35]
John Brucat
Try it again.
- [46:36]
Dr. Michael Lewis
But so for me, I am someone who has always preferred, I think this interview is a good example of that, to be direct and honest about situations. I have done a lot of interviewing of candidates and it is often the case that if there's a gap in a resume, it's better to explain it and move on from it than it is to try and circle around it and not address it or gloss it over. Sure, I just, that's my personal perspective on it. I just have always been someone who would rather sit down and say, hey, listen, I'm not going to share details with you because that's not professional and that's not who I am. But I will share very generally how I got to the position I'm in now and why I made those choices and offer to answer any questions if there are any. And so far I have been asked that question in interviews and there haven't been any follow up questions.
- [47:40]
John Brucat
You gave a little bit of advice earlier. But for those listening who may find themselves in a similar position, what could you offer in terms of staying resilient and finding the right job or maybe finding a new Career. I mean, you've been through a lot. What can you offer to somebody maybe finding themselves in a similar situation?
- [48:01]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Sure. So I think the first thing I would say is people in this kind of situation need to remind themselves that they're not the only ones. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to come on today with you and talk with you so directly about this. I once, just as kind of a. Almost a thought experiment, talked with a colleague of mine and we came up with. We each had worked about 20 years, and we both, we together, in our collective 40 years of experience, could name 25 people who had left jobs because it was just. It wasn't the right fit, it wasn't a good environment. Something changed, whatever it might be. So what happens? The challenge is, in my experiences, public education tends to be a little less understanding when someone leaves a job, especially compared to the private sector. I think in the private sector, this kind of thing happens all the time and no one even thinks twice about it. But in the public sector, because of the nature of pensions and public employment and use of public funds, people, yeah, job security people, are not used to seeing that happen a lot. So to remind yourself that you are not the only person that has done this or you're not the only person in this situation, I think is really important. I think another piece of advice I could offer is don't isolate yourself. It's. It's very easy to be embarrassed or to be worried or anxious. And I think that when you have those feelings, it's very easy to isolate yourself because you don't want to explain it. You don't want to see people. You don't want to have to have people ask about it, whatever it might be. But that's usually a much faster way of making things worse because you don't have any outlet, you know, you don't have any exposure to people to say, hey, you know, yeah, you made a decision and we're proud of you, or we support you, or, you know, we understand why you did what you did. So definitely, definitely don't isolate yourself. If possible, stay connected to friends and family and colleagues if you can. And I guess my final piece of advice would be keep yourself busy. It's very easy, especially in our job where you're doing 12 different tasks that have nothing to do with each other and all require different skill sets in a day. It's very easy to kind of slide down or back and just become a little complacent about things. I would say do something that Keeps your mind active. Whether it's something like I did and studying and taking an exam that I was able to take or getting an additional certification or just taking some professional development, it keeps your mind engaged, it keeps you connected to the work. And quite honestly, it'll probably give you some additional things to discuss or to bring to whatever your next job is.
- [51:27]
John Brucat
Well, I know this is a podcast and it's audio only, but I'm happy to see you've been keeping yourself maintained. You haven't grown your beer out. It doesn't look like you've adopted a diet of strictly ice cream, so that's great. But. So what about personally? What have you been doing to keep yourself busy and to keep your mind sharp? I mean, I know you mentioned you were going through some certifications and sitting for exams and stuff, but are you exercising? You're running? What are you doing personally to keep busy?
- [51:58]
Dr. Michael Lewis
So I am staying active physically. I am a runner and a cyclist, so that's been some things that I've been doing to stay active. Believe it or not, there's a few things that you never get to do around your house that you know, you can focus on and, and that might be bigger tasks. So like I've. I've done that to keep myself engaged, you know, and all the while doing other things, you know. So, for example, I still teach. Teaching at the graduate level has always been important to me. I just finished teaching a couple courses for a local university. I have another couple courses lined up to teach next semester for a different local university. These are all ways that I can give back. There are ways to keep me engaged. So those are some of the other things that I've been working through or working on.
- [52:57]
John Brucat
That's great. So as we wind down here, what excites you about the future? What are you looking forward to most and what keeps you energized?
- [53:09]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I guess for myself, I am excited to find out what that next system is I'm going to work in. I've always been on the more extroverted side. I'm really excited to find out where that next place is going to be that I go to. And I also think that I am excited to know that I don't have to. I don't have to do things that don't feel right if, you know, in terms of finding a new position or the work that I do in other areas. I'm excited to be able to focus on doing the things that I think bring me a sense of self confidence and a sense of Self satisfaction. So that is going to be a few different things. And that's something that I'm excited about. To say it a different way. I'm looking forward to being able to do various things in my life that bring me satisfaction and joy across different fields as opposed to drilling into only one position and sort of defining myself only as one specific job title.
- [54:25]
John Brucat
Well, I should probably ask you this off air because it's irrelevant to this conversation, but I don't want to forget. Are you doing the Turkey Trot this year? Are you going to run that?
- [54:34]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I don't do the Turkey Trot.
- [54:36]
John Brucat
You don't?
- [54:37]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I might do. I might do a Turkey Trot around my neighborhood.
- [54:40]
John Brucat
Come on. I just registered today. I mean, I'm coming back to visit for Thanksgiving. I figured, why not?
- [54:45]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Well, if you're gonna be there and do it, maybe I will. That's like a 50,000 person event. So it's like.
- [54:50]
John Brucat
It's madness. It's madness.
- [54:52]
Dr. Michael Lewis
It's pretty intense. But if I can run the Buffalo marathon, I'm sure I can.
- [54:57]
John Brucat
It's an 8K. You'll be fine.
- [54:59]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I can run the Turkey Trout with you.
- [55:00]
John Brucat
Yeah. All right. Well, Michael, seriously, thank you for speaking to me and thank you for your vulnerability and just being so honest with our listeners. As I said at the top of the episode, I'm sure this will resonate with a lot of people who tune in because we've all had those tough situations. And for you to come on and be so honest and open about your experience really says a lot about your character and how important this job is to you and it is to the profession and education. So thank you, my friend. It was great speaking with you, John.
- [55:30]
Dr. Michael Lewis
I really appreciate it. Thank you. And I hope that this serves as an opportunity to start some conversations among people who hear it, because it is a topic that I think people try and avoid because it's uncomfortable. But as is the case in most situations, if you address things that are uncomfortable, the situation tends to improve. So I'm hoping that I can be a catalyst for that and for however it's possible through your podcast. I'm always here as a support for others. It's something that's very important to me to help others. So if someone is listening to this or someone does want to reach out to me, I'm going to leave it to us to figure out a way for maybe through you or through asbo, to international to contact me if I can be of service to anyone.
- [56:22]
John Brucat
That's great. Well, thank you for that, and I know that'll serve well for many people. But best of luck on your journey moving forward, and I'm excited to have you back on to check in and see how things are going.
- [56:33]
Dr. Michael Lewis
Thank you.
- [56:36]
John Brucat
Thank you for tuning in to School Business Insider. Make sure to check back each week for your favorite topics on school business.