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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to asbo international's school business insider. I'm your host, john brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello everyone, and welcome back to School of Business Insider. Today's episode focuses on a leadership challenge that often doesn't get enough attention until it's too late. Succession planning. I am joined today by Bob Bales and Will Liu Kang to talk about the succession planning in school finance and operations needs to evolve from a reactive process into a core leadership responsibility. We'll explore where districts are most vulnerable, what leaders often get wrong, and how mentorship and coaching, especially in high impact Kairos moments, can help build the next generation of leaders. We'll also preview their upcoming Leadership Lab masterclass and strategic succession planning and what participants can expect. Bob and Will, welcome to the podcast. Happy to have you today.
- [01:23]
B
Thanks very much, John. It's great to be here with you.
- [01:25]
C
Thank you, John. Looking forward to our.
- [01:27]
A
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. So, Bob, why don't you kick it off today, starting at a high level. Why don't you tell our listeners why succession planning has really become such an urgent issue right now, specifically in school business.
- [01:41]
B
Yeah, thanks a lot, John. I really appreciate your intro saying, you know, that this is an area that doesn't get as much attention as maybe it should. Certainly an area that Will and I are very passionate about and one that I've seen as a CFO with Prairie Spirit School Division in many different ways over the last decade and a half. So, yeah, to write to your question, why now? Why more urgent than other things? I think that's the crux of every CFO's job is would you, John, you would know, right? It's just like there are way too many priorities that are. And you have to choose, right? You have to choose, but you can't. So how do you. So what I think is basically everything is changing and hitting us at once. When I say everything, it's the trifecta of three things. I think we're seeing a wave of retirement. So that demographic bubble, we're seeing that right across North America. Right. So that's not unique to us. But there is increasing financial and regulatory complexity. So that is a huge challenge for a lot of us. Just the amount of reporting we have to do and how quickly things are changing. And at the same time, we have a much shallower internal and external talent pool. That's certainly what we're finding out here in the west and at Prairie Spirit specifically. We have a lot of great people. We do. They're amazing. But not always a deep bench. Right. So we're having to do things so lean that there's not a lot of extra time to put into any of this. But when you look at it, we really have to. And so I'm hearing the same thing across other districts as well and even other public sector organization where these financial roles especially, but some of the more unique operational roles that we have, it's becoming a real challenge. And so this isn't a future problem anymore, it's a right now type of problem.
- [03:31]
A
And are you finding that organizations are having to kind of pivot and change their hiring tactics? Because I know a lot of organizations are looking for some seasoned, highly qualified school business officials, for instance. But at least in my area, I am seeing a few districts kind of somewhat take a risk on somebody who is green in their career and maybe is a learner, but doesn't have that, you know, 10 years experience that everyone's looking for. Are you finding that is kind of a trend now where schools are having to take a chance and maybe somebody who isn't that 10 year veteran?
- [04:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. As. Because that pool is a little more shallow, we're having to do some trade offs. Right. And there are risks with that, but you know, growing your own is probably a lot less risky. And you know, what do they say? The devil you know, is better than the devil you don't know. And of course, I'm not talking about any of our employees, just for the record.
- [04:27]
A
And no bad habits. Right. You can, you can train them.
- [04:29]
C
Yeah.
- [04:29]
B
When you know the strengths and you know the weaknesses like that, you're well on the way to helping somebody successful in their role. And that's what we want for everyone. Right. Be successful in their roles.
- [04:39]
A
Right, right. And then will, from your perspective, how has the conversation really shifted from a kind of a nice to have mentality to something that's a little bit more critical that you're seeing across the board?
- [04:50]
C
I think, as Bob alluded to, I think the challenges in financial. Right. And also the risk regulatory requirement has made it even more critical for us to make sure that we have proper succession planning. Because if we have one or two critical folks in our organization leave, that would leave a big hole. And oftentimes leader would think that that's an HR topic. That's a hiring topic. But the reality is it's not. There's this momentum and continuity that you need to think about in terms of executing the things that you're doing and making sure that you're able to deliver. But if you have a critical person in the role that left, that leaves a void. That's why now, instead of being a nice to have, it's becoming critical.
- [05:42]
A
Right. And I'm wondering too, for those maybe at the twilight of their careers, is succession planning on the minds of folks that you're talking to? Or is it they're focused on retirement, they're ready to kind of close up that chapter of their life and move on? Or is there this need and this recognition that, okay, I can't just kind of walk out the door, I need to ensure that I'm grooming somebody to kind of fill my shoes or whatever else is needed in, say, a business office.
- [06:08]
C
I think it's a mixed bag, right? Some people that have been there in their career for a long time and they want to pass on whatever they learn, other people are really excited to look toward the future of retirement. And therefore that becomes more of a responsibility of the, of the organization to make sure they have a plan. That's why being intentional about it, having a plan really helps them cover both the bases because not everyone will be thinking about passing what they know. Some people will be thinking about more retirement and moving on. So coming up with a plan really allows the organization to be ready to meet both situations.
- [06:47]
A
And I'm wondering too, you've both mentioned just kind of an increasing regulatory environment. Are you finding that those stepping in to fill the shoes of maybe a lifelong school business official are prepared from a documentation standpoint? And what I mean is, are school districts preparing those coming in to their districts by documenting processes, internal controls, and things like that, are the structures in place? So again, we talked about earlier, more and more organizations are having to take on maybe newer individuals in their careers, but are the structures in place to allow them to succeed?
- [07:22]
B
Yeah, it's a great question. I think, like Will's answer to that one is, it's pretty varied, but it's becoming more and more important, and those structures are becoming more and more relevant because all you need is one problem which turns up to being a disaster. People like, oh, we got to get on this. We can't have this happen again. Once is bad, twice is catastrophic, right? So it usually takes a little pain. Like for most of us in decision making, like getting up and exercising, you need some impetus Right. You need a little heart flutter, you need to go to the hospital before you actually do it. Right. And so I think that's the same. It was the same for me with my, with, with walking every day. And it certainly said I see the same in secession planning. But to your previous question around the regulatory piece, like if we, if you hire a CPA from outside of K to 12 education or outside post secondary, there is so much regulatory stuff that you need kind of that baseline. But the whole first year or two is learning all that other stuff that's unique to the reporting and stuff. So that adds a level of complexity that if you're not, you know, you want as many of the pieces foundation as you can. But if we have to go outside the K to 12 environment, then even in other areas, other operational areas. John. Right. There's a lot of complexities that are unique to k to 12. So the more we can shore those up, the better. Because we probably can't go and find someone that knows everything and hit the ground running. There's going to be a bit of a dip, bit of a curve.
- [08:54]
A
You make a great point because governmental finance is very much different than corporate and private finance. And you know, I've worked with some really high powered CFOs in the new York City metropolitan area and they know their stuff. But when, as soon as you crack open an external audit for a school district, it's like, you know, it's like reading Greek. Right. It's just totally different than what, what private sector CFOs are used to. So I think Bob, you make a great point. Those skills aren't necessarily immediately transferable. I think the, the general understanding of accounting is, is there, but when it comes to governmental accounting, it just seems to be so unique. And you, you, you're starting to have to find people to just kind of learn it on the job, you know,
- [09:36]
B
and that, that's what makes all the other pieces so important. Because you don't want to come into a job where, you know, 20%. Right. We're hoping we can find someone that knows at least three quarters of what they're doing to learn that final quarter on the job, as you say.
- [09:48]
C
John.
- [09:49]
A
Right. So you frame succession planning as risk management, which I find fascinating because I don't know that it's necessarily the frame of mind that we've, we take all the time with succession planning. But can you tell me in practical terms what does it really mean for a school district to, to frame succession planning as risk management?
- [10:07]
B
Yeah, I should probably start that just by saying I'm a true risk management disciple. And so I, I really think that it helps us look at the decision making. And often people look at risk management as just all the risks, but it's really the risk to the opportunity. Right. That we're trying to go to. But for me, you know, to be practical, for me it means treating leadership gaps in the same way that we treat financial risks. And it has the same, if not more impact, especially depending where you are in the organization. If you, if you have a couple of misses with your board and you're like missing reporting periods, you're missing anything. Quarterly reports to the board, reports to the, to our different government agencies. It's, it's a, it's a, it's maybe one of the biggest risks for us to keep our jobs. Right. Like that this is an important thing. We need to have stability. So like we don't wait for a budget shortfall to start planning. Right. We anticipate it, which unfortunately now is on your show and other places. Right. There is challenges with budgets and so we're anticipating it. We're not planning just next year's budget now. We're looking out the next year, 2, 3. Structurally, what do we have to do? Well, I think it's the same for secession planning, same idea. Where are we exposed, what happens if someone leaves and where are we preparing? So it doesn't have to be overly complicated to kind of get this ball rolling. You got to start somewhere.
- [11:30]
A
And I wonder too, when it comes to succession planning, not necessarily just for the CFO or the school business official at the top, but that individual also needs to worry about maybe others in the business office that are at the end of their careers as well. And I've actually, I've been experiencing this lately because it seems like everybody in my office was hired around the same time. So everyone's starting to leave around the same time. But I'm wondering, how do you successfully thread the needle of respecting one's wishes to kind of maintain privacy, really get ready for retirement, but also say, hey, could you give me a heads up when you think you're going to retire so I can start planning accordingly? How do you kind of strike that balance in the office?
- [12:12]
C
I think from our process, we made it part of HR conversation because it's part of running the business, making sure that things are moving along. So it's. We made it part of the HR conversation that when an employee does their either annual review with their line manager to sort of talk about their career and their future. And if you include that it becomes part of the regular conversation that they would be able to bring up whether they're retiring or not. And therefore that could be accounted for. And it's always put in a, in a, in a positive lens wherein if you're about to retire then we could train someone else and we also lessen the, the load that you have or pair you with someone else to actually allow you to, to really move on to retirement because you don't want to say I'm retiring in two months and then all of a sudden all you have to do is do your work and train someone else. And really by changing the conversation from one of which you're going to lose your job or we, we're, we're going to face you out is we're changing the conversation toward, we're giving you the opportunity to, to face into retirement east, easing to your time and nicely while making sure we're able to run our business. And that's the biggest change that we're doing from a discussion perspective to make sure it become more of a positive than again, negative. Like I agree with you, sometimes people don't want other people to know when they're retiring because they felt it's a threat to their, their career or perhaps their existence. Sorry.
- [13:44]
B
Yeah, to me as you, because you're talking about other than kind of the business officer like the, the cfo financial. Right. Wherever there's institutional knowledge. We were talking about that earlier a little bit. Right. All the uniquenesses, wherever there's more institutional knowledge, that's going to be the harder pieces to replace or harder pieces to, to back fill in. And so but those, you know, payroll would be some of that. Right. For sure. Because we all pay differently and by exception, by time card, by everything. Facilities is a huge one because most school districts that I'm familiar with have lots of different buildings and they're all unique. And so if you lose that, if you lose the blueprints or you never had any, like that's a big problem when you have to start looking at stuff. And it of course is that role where we're supporting so many students and staff. You it's, there's a lot of institutional knowledge and background on all that. So to me that's where the biggest risk trends tend to be in those areas where there's high levels of institutional knowledge that maybe we don't think about and hopefully we think about it early enough.
- [14:49]
A
Right, That's a great point. So I guess my, my follow up would be how can school business officials really identify where their exposure is? So you had mentioned it's not just finance, it's facilities, operations, technology, you name it. What can school business officials start doing now to kind of minimize their exposure to this succession planning turnover?
- [15:10]
C
I think the first thing that I think they could do is identify like do a, do a strategic assessment of their overall staffing and identify who are. Just a simple, just to make it a bit simple is identify what are the critical roles, what are the roles that must have for them to continue to function, what are the secondary roles that are important. And once they identify those, then they would be able to identify what is it they need to do in order to fill those roles. Are there anybody in the district that could do that? Do we need to hire someone from somewhere else? Or what are the plans? We could. Without identifying what are the area of risk, it's hard to really just come up with a high level plan. That's why we're saying it's not. It's not. It now shifts from something that's nice to have to more strategic because you need to have a plan of action so you could track your progress. And the tracking of progress is around making sure you're moving the needle in the right direction. Because things like this are often more complex than easy. Even though sometimes the mistake that leaders are making is it's an HR problem, it's just a hiring problem, but it's not. It's more on momentum and continuity of service.
- [16:26]
B
Yeah. If I could add to that, John, you know, there. It is complex, but depending on where you are in the continuum. So if you're a neophyte in this area, like you haven't thought about it at all, it's your first go, whatever you want to call it, you want to keep it really simple because you don't have to see this. Well, this is something else I got to do on my desk. But you know, you can't have that because there are too many things on the desk. Can you find the desk these days? Right. So we got to keep it simple. If you're on that early end of the continuum and you can just really ask if this person left tomorrow, what would happen? Like that to me is the, is the quick, easy question of how you identify. And if it's like serious pain, I'm, I'm, I'll probably quit myself. Well, then that, that, that's probably the job you need to focus on. Start on that one. Right. So usually that's a good question. And then just start there. Just, just you can do baby steps. Right. How do you eat an elephant?
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A
Right.
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B
One night at a time. Right. And so this is an elephant over your whole institution. But don't think you have to eat the whole thing right away. Actually I've never tried eating an elephant, but I, I like that analogy. I'm guessing that's what people say. If it's one. One bite.
- [17:30]
A
Yeah, that's the thing. I mean it's a lot to tackle. Right. You know?
- [17:34]
B
Yeah.
- [17:35]
A
So I, I guess a follow up to that too, kind of in a similar vein is really where the stumbling blocks are for leaders. So when you think about misconceptions, where are school business leaders and really just leaders of K12 education wrong about succession planning today? Where are they screwing up and what could they do differently to make sure that's a little bit more successful moving forward?
- [17:59]
B
Yeah, I can certainly talk to that more about myself than others. But Will can talk to the broader spectrum as well. But I know for myself it's like, okay, just give me a spreadsheet, I need some names. When are people retiring? Let's go. Okay, good. I got a plan. Okay. Onto the next problem. Right, right. But that, no, that's not going to really help us. Right. So I think probably a lot of leaders like me assume there's, we are more prepared than we actually are. They may have someone in mind. They know they're going to retire. They've seen that coming up. But that person hasn't actually been developed for the role. And I think that's the key word I think is developed. And how do we go about developing. But Will, what have you seen more in a broad sense?
- [18:40]
C
I think there's three key themes that we're seeing. Number one, waiting until it's urgent. Right. Because as Bob said, there's really, there's no legitimate plan in place. So it's just, okay, let's see who's what we're doing next quarter or next year. And then all of a sudden someone turning the resignation or they going to retire. And now it becomes a critical problem number two that we're seeing a lot of, a lot of people doing hiring us. Oh, we hired someone, we have a replacement. That means it's done. The reality is it takes time for that person to learn what it's needed in that role for them to be effective. Considering as a single performer. Right. Single contributor. Imagine a manager coming in, having to manage a department. That learning curve is now doubled or tripled. So that's another area where we think that it's a misconception that's happening. And the last one that's really critical is they think that there are documentation and knowledge are captured elsewhere in the organization. And the reality is most of the time it's not the person are so good in what they do. It become really natural for them to remember and do everything based on memory. And everyone, the team does the same thing. But when that one critical piece leaves, not only did the person left, the institutional knowledge left and all the relationship that goes with that and those, those are the three things that we commonly see that are affecting the organization's I would say stability more than anything else. Because once a leader leaves, a new person comes in a new dynamics and learn does this person now adapt to our culture or they want to bring their own culture and bring their own people?
- [20:25]
A
And Bob, to your earlier point you had mentioned like the desk just keeps getting more cluttered and cluttered and you can barely even find it now. There's so many competing priorities. But I think obviously succession planning is something that needs to be prioritized. How can you, what advice can you give that to our, to our listeners to help prioritize this? Because there are so many competing priorities that we have to juggle. But I feel that if you don't prioritize succession planning, I think those, the issues will just compound. Those issues that are already outstanding get even more complex, you're even more backlogged. What are some strategies that leaders can use to kind of reshift their priorities to focus on succession planning?
- [21:09]
B
Yeah, that's a great question and maybe the most important question for us all to grapple with, like how do we do this? I think that from a psychological standpoint, you don't want to think about it as something else. You got to bolt on something else. You got to have a stack of papers on your desk because that's never going to happen. It's not going to work. But it's really a state of mind, I think when you're going through things, it's not like you can't develop people in the same way in a, like a classroom of leadership development than actually in the heat of battle, so to speak. So at a board table, when someone makes a mistake, well, just don't jump in and save them right away, maybe at the table, but then come away and say, okay, what were you thinking here? And so really have it become part of your ethos of development. And from a succession planning standpoint, remember, it's easy just to Rush it and fix it. What, what just takes another kind of second is to engage them in their thinking of what would they have done now that they're outside of the issue, what would they have done? And as they're planning things, Right. As you're working with people that are planning stuff, help them think that process through. So it may take just a fraction of a time longer now, but the payoffs in the future are amazing. Right. So you will have people that are more ready. And that's what we're really looking for, is a higher state of readiness to move in this job. And if you do it well, I'm told if you do it well, that actually it'll make your job easier because they'll, they'll be already thinking, if they were in that role, what would they be doing? And they'll want to get that information to you. So it's a, it's a win, win, really. Don't think of it as an addition. Think of it as just an, a small investment with massive returns in the Future. Because U.S. cFOs, we love that ROI talk. Right. So put it in that language in our own head. It might help us actually do something about it.
- [22:57]
A
Right. Well, I think that dovetails nicely into kind of this mentorship as a leadership strategy that you've emphasized in the past. So you've mentioned that it needs to be deliberate and not necessarily an informal mentorship leadership strategy. What does that really look like in practice?
- [23:13]
B
Yeah, what we've tried to do, I guess for me then it's planned and not just informal. Right. You're cognitively thinking about some of the things and some of the big things that we like to think about, think about. And will be curious to hear what you have to say about this as well, is just for number one, who are you developing? Like, that's kind of. That was that like, pick up 1, 2, 3, whatever, like, what's your most critical piece? And then spend some time on that. Not a lot necessarily, just in your head, even as you're going through meetings. And before maybe you would have checked out just for half a second. We'll check into how am I developing this person here? What do they need? So from that adaptive mentorship model, you're adapting yourself to figure out a, on a competence and confidence level what, what they need and how are we supporting that over time. As, as Will was saying, like, it's. This is not like, dip them in the chocolate and they're fixed. Right. This is an ongoing developmental process. The chocolate would taste Better, but actually makes you fat. Right. So we, we want an ongoing lean
- [24:10]
C
developmental process to add to what Bob said. I think it's critical that leaders at all level are asked to actually put the people development as one of the key goals. When you do that, it becomes part of the KPI and when it's part of the KPI, they know they need to work on it. It's not, it's, it's not something that become a nice to have if, if you're going to review with your manager and one of your KPI is talent development. Now it becomes real and that becomes more strategic for the organization. And by doing that, the leader now have to focus on what Bob said. Who are my critical people? What are the skills that are needed from that particular role perspective and who are the people in my department that could potentially take on that role and be able to come up with a high level plan. But the best way to approach this really is from a central point of the organization, which is hr. Hr Supporting older leaders to be able to capture all this information and sort of have a high level dashboard as to where we are from an organization perspective. Not really to look at it as a carrot or stick, but really as a strategic goal for us to move into the right direction.
- [25:28]
A
That's great. I'd also like to unpack something a little bit that you had said earlier about, but you made a distinction between competence and confidence, both vitally important. Can you tell me a little bit more about how to effectively build both competence and confidence in emerging leaders?
- [25:46]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you asked that question. It's a great question. And in some of the graduate courses I've taught in the past and some we use it exclusively with our new teachers. So the adaptive mentorship model is one that looks at a unique situation. So not the person as a whole. Like after talking to me, John, you probably say, well, Bob may be confident, but he's got no competence. Right. Hopefully you don't feel that way. You could.
- [26:17]
A
That is a dangerous combination.
- [26:20]
B
Yes, it's very dangerous. Right. So yeah, we look at and we'll unpack this in the master class. I know we'll talk about that a little bit later. But to look at a unique situation and then decipher with them potentially, well, where is their level of competence on this? Like do they have the right skills? And then do they feel confident? So you really need both and you have to kind of develop both at the same time. So they have to grow together. So yeah, there's Technical knowledge, but then there's also the confidence that they understand it so they can act. That's one of the reasons actually I got into graduate teaching is I figured, well, if I have to teach it, I, I'm going to have to really know it. I just can't make this stuff up on the fly. And so both I think are really important. If you, and if you, you have really strong and one and not the other, it's a problem. And so the idea is the mentor, the boss, however you want to look at it, adapts their style based on their competence and confidence of a unique situation for the person.
- [27:24]
A
And to your point, I feel both are critically important because you could have somebody who is the most competent in their field, but if they lack confidence, that confidence can erode away their ability to communicate what they're so good at. And then they start second guessing themselves and they appear that maybe they aren't so competent after all. So to your point, trying to build both is really, really important because you could just be undermining yourself the entire time. Could be the smartest person in the room in a certain subject area, but if you don't know how to articulate it or you're not confident in how to do so, then what's the good in being so competent after all?
- [28:03]
B
John, I was just going to say a very practical level for your listeners. As you were talking about that, it made me think the way you actually do it is by increasing responsibility and giving them opportunities in like bite size. We often talk about the gradual release of responsibility. Right. Give them enough rope, just enough so they can feel like it's getting tight around a body part or their neck or whatever, but then be there to support them through it and, and encourage them. Right? You can, you can be very encouraging. Which we love to be in. K to 12. Right. We love. And so that piece is usually not a problem, but you got to kind of push them out of the nest just a little bit so they start building some of those skills so they're ready for the next role. Sorry, Will, did you want to say something there too?
- [28:44]
C
No, no, no, you cover, you cover it really well.
- [28:47]
A
Well, you talk about these kairos moments that I'm really interested. Could you tell me and our listeners what are those exactly? And can you explain those a little bit more in depth?
- [28:58]
C
Kairos meant for us? Kairos really meant opportune moment. You could have developed your skill and develop yourself long time ago, but you did not. Your next best thing is to do it today and from our methodology, we have what we call I AIM model. I meant intent. What's the intent and purpose and why are you doing it now? Why is it urgent now? Why is it urgent for you to fix it? Why it's urgent for you to develop. So we need to unpack that one and understand your motivation and where you're coming from and why today is more important. And if you don't fix this the next six months, why would really impact your progression or your career? Second, we go into assessment. We go into assessing your knowledge, capability, perspective, and what is it you need to actually be able to be not only competent and confident in that role. And then once we identify that through our assessment process, we then have to then identify what are the things you need to do in order to move the needle into the right direction. Because there are things probably you already have like business skills and technical skills that you have, but you're locking in leadership skills because now you're in a leadership role and you don't know how to lead others. You don't know how to do delegation and you don't know how to do a difficult conversation. And those are the common things that we hear. I don't know how to delegate. I, if I do it, I could do it myself. It's going to be done, it's going to be done in two days. But if I gave it to Will, it's gonna take like a week. I don't know, I don't have a week. But they don't realize that if they don't spend the time with Will, Will would never really get to where, you know, John wants Will to be. And that's really important. It's unpacking what are the problems that's preventing them from being successful in the role and then identifying how we help them. And the last part is what I called always is. It's, it's interesting they called make it happen. Right? Because that's the reality where you put all of things, all of the things together, work on the plan, do the coaching and do the training in order for the person now to move to where they need to be. And the reality is it's a cycle. People often ask me, oh, is this a four month cycle, a six month cycle? I said it all depends on you. You're the variable, right? Like the time you could, you could put in the commitment you had. I think the commitment was so important. People always talk about time. It's just like a three month thing, a six month thing. And I would say it's your commitment thing, it's your dedication thing. Those two are more important than the time because if you put in the commitment and dedication the time might be shorter. But if you couldn't put in those two, the time might be like six months, a year or two. And then now you have to define what your time horizon. So we always use our I AIM framework that we use for our coaching in order to help our people understand where they need to be.
- [31:57]
A
And are you finding the trend is a lack of those soft skills? I mean my mind jumps to CFO as really being technically proficient, but as they graduate up through their career and assume leadership roles, maybe they don't have those soft skills and those being able to have tough conversations and delegate. Is that primarily the trend or is it kind of a mixed bag in your experience?
- [32:18]
C
I think it's a mix. There are people that are really technically really good but they need help in the soft skills area. But there are people who are really good from a managerial and leading area but they lack the depth of the business knowledge and you need to help them identify those. Because sometimes we are so busy doing our work and we people don't have the time to what I call pause because pausing is really important, right? Just taking time to reflect on what's going on. A lot of, a lot of us are so busy with our day to day. Literally we have tasks when we start the day and we have tasks at the end of the day. And sometimes the task at the start of the day is equal to tasks at the end of the day not because you didn't get work done but more things comes into your queue. Therefore helping them understand and navigate that and learn how to do manage priority. Because sometimes I heard people talk about time management but the reality is you can't really manage time. Time just goes on every, every day. But your priority you could manage and helping them understand those whether it's soft skill where it's leadership skills, where it's priority or understanding the business more. Because at times your lack of understanding with your business department is going to hold you back because you might actually doing it the wrong way.
- [33:36]
A
And if a district wants to move really from a reactive to ready standpoint, what's really the first step? I mean we've gone through a lot of great strategies to really ensure that succession planning is a priority. Building up leadership developing rather than supporting. But if a district really wants to get started now and not be so reactive, what's their first step?
- [34:01]
C
The first step is setting that goal that they Want to do the people development and talent development as a priority, because when you do it from the top, everyone would be able to follow that. But if you do it by department, it becomes, oh, it's a nice thing because Mary's doing it, but Bob is not doing it. Will is not doing it, but Mary's really good. So Mary is like the top performer. But if you make it an organizational goal, which we always encourage people to do that because once they do trickles down, it becomes part of conversation for every leader. And now every leader have to take on that task to lead it, because you want to give them that freedom to lead their talent development and not just say, hey, here are the things I want you to implement. When you bring people along, not do things to people, it becomes something that they own. A lot of times we tell the organization, don't tell them what to do, but encourage them that these are the things that are important to you. Because a lot of times people felt like in an organization, they're doing things to me versus they're including me in their plan. So including them in their plan allows them to put in their opinion, give their say as to what they could do in their department, and then plan accordingly.
- [35:21]
B
Yeah. One of the things, John, that we did fairly recently in the last couple of years is it became a passion of mine due to some probably faults of mine in the past of not looking at this as important. So I started small with, you know, myself and. And I had a health issue. And so I was a little worried I may need someone to step in quickly. So it was a real compelling reason. That's always helpful when it can be a real reason. I started small. One person, pick one person, start developing them intentionally. But your question about, like, overall, I think a lot of CFOs have the distinct pleasure of overseeing a lot of these operational areas. Right. And so I talked about it both at the senior leadership table about that we need to move this way for all these reasons. But then with my team meetings with the leader of HR and the leader of these other areas. Right. Facilities and finance and IT and transportation, to say, I want us all to have a plan like, we are doing this and this is important, and if you leave tomorrow, I need you. So we need to at least be heading down that journey. So for me, it's. It's planned, it's not just informal, but you have to, you know, go where you are kind of thing. So basically, who are we developing, what do they need, and how are we supporting that over time? Because there are some roles that you aren't easy to secession plan for. Right. Like maybe the, the, the HR or the, the transportation manager, like to take a mechanic and put him in overseeing for us 150 buses. Like that's, you can't. That doesn't work well there. Right. So, so what else are we doing though, to, to try to encourage that? So you're really changing the culture of an organization where before we all kept it quiet. We didn't want anyone to know we were going to retire maybe in three to five years because maybe then we wouldn't, we'd be kind of shuffled out. Right. And so hopefully now we have more of a culture of. No, this is an ongoing process and just because you say three to five years doesn't like you're not retiring until you put that letter in. Right. And so you're planning, it's all about good planning and not about saying, hey, I'm checking out for the last two years of my career. Good luck guys. Hasta la vista. So we want to change that culture. Yes, absolutely.
- [37:39]
A
So as we wind down here, I do want to touch on the masterclass that both of you will be administering. So you're leading an upcoming leadership lab on strategic secession planning. What can participants expect from that?
- [37:56]
B
Well, in all these kind of masterclasses, I hope one thing they can expect is engaging conversations both with Will and I and their fellow colleagues. Because we got to make it real, it has to be relevant and they want to, we want them to implement it tomorrow. Right. You got to do something tomorrow. So we're talking six months out like any cfo, like they're going to forget it four times before six months out. Right. So we want it to be real relevant and hands on, practical. We want to give them tools, we want to dive into some of these competence confidence pieces a little deeper to kind of walk through some models. And my whole thing is, you know, if you're not enjoying it, you're not breathing deeply and you're not getting all the oxygen to your brain. So we want it to be enjoyable as well. That's not always easy talking about financial situations, but that is a goal and we will certainly make that happen. So they can expect to receive real relevant tools. They can expect to receive a bunch of them and then they can pick the ones that will work best for their area and they can expect to actually put them into practice during the session so they feel more confident and competent about what, what the masterclass is about. What do you think Will my ask
- [39:04]
C
for them is to actually engage. Right. But sometimes when you go to like session or master class, people sit back and they just listen. In this particular session, we want to hear you because we, we're going to have all question that we're going to ask you. Participate, give your, give your thoughts, engage, because that's where you're going to get the most out of this session is really engaging. Not only you learn from us when we're doing the masterclass, but oftentimes you learn so much from your peers who are also in the masterclass. So I would really ask you to pour in, engage, locked in and maximize the opportunity. This way you could walk away with a lot of nuggets that you could implement and be able to be more productive after you attend the session.
- [39:47]
A
I love it. It makes a much better session when people are engaged and offering their own perspectives, especially in a, in a strategic planning session like this. So final thought for both of you. If based on everything that we've talked about in the last 40 or so minutes, if districts choose to do nothing differently than what they're doing now, what is the real risk? And maybe will, we can start with you.
- [40:07]
C
I think there's a saying that if you don't plan to succeed, you plan to fail. Right? If you don't plan to succeed, you plan to fail. And it's often great if you start an initiative versus something forcing you to do it. Sometimes we let a situation happen and now we have to do it in this situation. People, management, talent management and planning for future is one of the most exciting things, I think. Take it up and encourage your team to actually lock in and work with you to have a better plan that you could execute with.
- [40:42]
A
Bob?
- [40:44]
B
Yeah, yeah. You say the risks, you know, and you're talking my language and you say that. So I'll try not to get too excited here. But I, I really am enthusiastic about looking at those things that help us in decision making. But I, as Will said earlier, I think at the end of the day it's about system stability. So your risks if you don't is sooner or later it's going to happen. It's just a matter of time. Like you're going to have a huge challenge. There's going to be a huge hole that you can't fill and you probably can't fill it right away. So when leadership transitions don't go well, things start to get wobbly. And that to me, that's kind of a good way to say it. So if we want stability in our organizations, which I think every CFO wants across the board. We have to invest in stability in our leadership, and that means developing people before we need them so they're more ready. And how do we go about doing that? Well, we're going to identify the risk. We're going to look at approaches to mentorship more intentionally, and we're going to take those Kairos moments, the real time moments, to develop people, like in the field, real time. And so it's not a bolt on. It'll just become part of our ethos, part of our culture. That's something that we do and this is how we invest in people. And that'll draw people right when they hear this is what you do. Those junior people are going to want to come because most of them want to grow. So. So that's my risk. I'll keep it short. That's my risk comment.
- [42:09]
A
That's great. Well, Bob and Will, thank you both for joining me today on School Business Insiders. Has been a great conversation about succession planning and I look forward to your masterclass coming up soon.
- [42:18]
B
Thank you so much, John. Yeah, it's been a real pleasure to be on your podcast here and with my good colleague Will. Yeah, that, that masterclass, if people are interested, they can find it on the ASBLA site. And it's Wednesday, July 8th.
- [42:31]
C
Thank you, John, for your time. Really appreciate it.
- [42:34]
A
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