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- [00:02]
A
You're listening to asbo international's school business insider. I'm your host, john brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello everyone, and welcome back to School Business Insider. As school districts begin looking ahead to budget planning for 2627, one challenge continues to surface across the country. The growing shortage of skilled trades and its impact on operations, facilities and long term financial strategy. In today's episode, I'm joined by Chuck Luchin, recently retired National Strategic Account Director at Staples Business, who spent years leading K12 growth strategy and working closely with districts nationwide. Drawing from his School Business now article, budgeting for 2627 why skilled trades Must be Part of a Financial Strategy, we'll explore why skilled trades can no longer be treated as a reactive expense, how workforce shortages are reshaping district budgets, and how and what school business officials should be thinking about now to stay ahead. Chuck, welcome to the podcast. Happy to have you today.
- [01:29]
B
Thanks so much for inviting me here, John.
- [01:33]
A
Yeah, so I'm excited. I'm excited to explore a little bit more of your article, your take on the skilled trades. I know we were just talking offline about how AI is just exponentially moving forward and you know, this may lead to a greater demand for skilled trades. But you know, why don't you just tell me a little bit about your article. It makes a strong case that skilled trades are really needed to be part of a district's financial strategy. Not really an afterthought, not reactionary. What prompted you to really kind of explore this topic and write it now?
- [02:03]
B
Well, having retired from Staples after 19 years gave me the opportunity to really dig into something that I've been very passionate about and what I've been seeing developing over my 38 year career in education. And I've always been very passionate about education. It's not just a job, it's been a career. And I look at it as the cornerstone for our country's future and stability as we move forward. But I feel that right now that from what I've seen, our education system is at a crossroads. They're dealing and they're wrestling with a whole lot of factors that are converging and, you know, declining enrollments. We're seeing that due to declining birth rates, which puts pressure on school budgets. You're seeing it across the country, school districts are closing buildings. They're making some pretty hard decisions, laying off staff demographics. A lot of the leaders from my generation are retiring, and yet our kids are really experiencing the challenges that those of us from a previous generation never had to deal with. And so the economic realities are really forcing our education system to reevaluate, reinvent, and realign with today's economic needs. So I feel that now I have the opportunity to really dig in and focus. And for anybody that wants to listen to me, because I have that long career and that insight where I can pull it all together and why the all departments within districts have to work together to really look at the future and create stability. Because our future depends on it. Our kids depend on it.
- [04:03]
A
Right. I mean, you've really been uniquely positioned where you have a nationwide view of some of these issues. So how widespread are the skilled trade challenges for school districts in your research nationally?
- [04:16]
B
I mean, it's being experienced across the country. You've got, you know, as I stay engaged, and I'll just say this, that I retired from Staples, but I didn't retire from education. So I'm continuing to stay engaged with all my relationships and my contacts to really stay on top of what's been going on. But nationally, you know, look at the demographics, look at various states and what's going on with enrollments. Even in Iowa, Kansas City, school districts are having to deal with budgets, and not only because of what's going on at the federal level, but also because of those factors that I mentioned. These schools are. Most of them are dealing with shrinking enrollments, which the trend is expected to go through. I believe the enrollment declines are going to be going through at least 2031. So there is a long. This is a long trend. This is not going to be fixed overnight. But the solution that I see, because the net. Because the needs of the nation, skilled trades, which is a. Which is a segment under the larger area of cte. But the skilled trades, it's the obvious solution.
- [05:34]
A
Do you think schools should start rethinking how we're approaching our students in terms of preparing them for the future? I. I call back to when I was a student. It was, you know, you go to school, then you go to college, you get your bachelor's, you get. Then you go and you get your master's, and you get all of these advanced educational degrees. But it sounds like what you're seeing is we need to kind of retool and rethink what we're preparing our kids for. And get it really getting into those trades. Maybe not, maybe, maybe your MBA is great, but maybe we need, you know, some more of those, you know, vocational skills.
- [06:08]
B
John? Absolutely. You know, the schools have really served the needs of the country for many, many years. You know, you go to school, most people, you know, kids go to college, you know, but our economy is changing, technology is forcing change. The average federal student debt for my research when they come out is roughly $37,000. Okay, some are higher, some are lower. We are in a student loan debt crisis right now, our country with 1.7 trillion and it's growing. The median starting salary for many college grads, and you've seen this with last year's graduating class, very difficult time finding employment out there. But the starting salary for the majority of college grads is 50 to 60,000, depending on their major. But the skilled trades are in high demand and starting salaries for the skilled trades can be anywhere from 60 to 90,000 based on experienced tradespeople. So in addition to that, you know, when trade training typically costs a fraction of a four year degree, which is why you're seeing trade school enrollments going up, it generally, and again, it just depends on where you're looking at because I tend to paint a broad brush. Higher ed enrollment is going down, so you're seeing the impact on that as well. But AI is just a fact of life and it's going to continue to accelerate. And I think that our education system has got to be able to adapt to it and to pivot and to provide for that next generation. And that means either skilled trades prepare them, because as many companies are out there right now, they're experiencing shortages, demographics. Many of them can't find skilled tradespeople like Ford Motor Company and they prefer to work with high schools and work with apprentice programs where they come right out of high school and they go to the, to these manufacturers to do the training instead of going to a four year school.
- [08:34]
A
Right. And I mean, it was only a matter of time, I think, before we got to this point, because in my humble opinion, the whole higher education system is backwards. And I know so many people that got advanced degrees and now they're just working to sustain their debt payments. And I was in that boat for a really long time and it felt like I was just spinning my wheels and I couldn't make any financial progress because my debt burden was so high, because that's what I had to do in my mind, go to school to get a job. And so it's just this vicious cycle and the cost of higher education isn't getting any cheaper. So I, it makes sense to me, you know, based on what you're saying so far, that not only are the skilled trades in demand because there was such a generation focused on higher education, but now it's just so much more lucrative because to your point, you're, you're, you're getting your skilled trade training and your apprenticeships and you're, you don't have this huge debt burden on you, but you're also making it incredibly competitive salary without that debt. So you're advantaging yourself arguably more than a four year degree.
- [09:37]
B
I definitely agree with that. But I mean, you know, our education system plays a very important role in this, in preparing our, our kids for their career journey. You know, as example, John, I graduated from KU in 1984 with, with a, with a, with a degree in journalism at that time. Sure, you needed to go because companies wouldn't even consider you without having a degree these days. It's a lot different. It is a lot different.
- [10:13]
A
Yeah. That's what was ingrained in me when I was in high school is no one's even going to look at your resume if, if you don't have a four year degree. So that's, that's, that was the path that I took. And to your point, I don't think that companies are positioned to be so exclusionary these days. But that being said, so with these shortages in skilled trades, you know, H vac, electrical, plumbing, facilities, maintenance, all fall within those skilled trades that districts are focused on. How are those shortages really showing up in district budgets today? Are they paying premiums? Are they finding it difficult to get companies in to maintain these or even employees that have these skill sets?
- [10:50]
B
Are you talking about skilled trades to go into the districts for repairs and things like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:00]
A
And I'm wondering just like, what is the impact on the budget now? I mean, you know, simple supply and demand would suggest that, I would assume districts are having to pay a premium to get those skilled trades in where maybe, you know, 10, 15 years ago it wasn't as expensive budgetarily.
- [11:17]
B
I would agree with that. You know, our skilled, our skilled labor shortages are increasing district maintenance and capital costs. And because many districts have deferred maintenance. And so now you're seeing what's happening in many of these older buildings. The average age of a school building is more than 50 years old. And many times districts don't have the capital funds or they've got to go to the community to get A capital funded bond to build a school or to repair a school. Sure, you're seeing school districts every year build new, new schools, but for the majority of them, they're really having to deal and maintain deteriorating buildings, which affects the climate for learning. And so many of the schools that I visited and that I worked with during my tenure, many, many of them are not in great shape. So it does increase the cost and.
- [12:20]
A
To the deferred maintenance piece. Are you finding that because of these issues that we're discussing, districts are trying to limp along a little bit further and extend things past useful life more than they may have in the past?
- [12:31]
B
Absolutely. Agree with that. Yeah, because districts are dealing with budget reductions and you're also dealing with communities that depending on the, on the tax base, that the community may feel that for one reason or another, they're not going to vote to approve these bonds or levies even though they know that the education needs it. But they may feel that the education system today or in their community doesn't really justify it. So absolutely, these school districts are dealing with a lot of, you got a lot of states that are really challenged with their tax base. The number one line item at a state budget is education. And it's getting hit. It's getting hit.
- [13:23]
A
And are you finding that local communities are feeling the pinch as well? I mean, that the cost of living seems to be rising quicker than it has in recent, recent history. And with districts feeling the pressure to have these capital needs addressed, most of them are having to go to the community for additional funds. Are communities responding with, you know, we don't have the money to support anything additional right now, even though you could have water coming through the roofs and leaky windows.
- [13:49]
B
I think it's a mixed bag, John. I don't think one size fits all. I think that it really depends on your community, you know, what the, what the demographic is in that community. Is there an older base? You know, where you've got, you know, a lot of the, you know, a lot of homeowners aren't, aren't moving anymore. They're, they're not moving out. And therefore these communities are challenged with not having the supply for younger families that want to be in that school district to move in. So I think you're, you're also finding that as well. But I see it everywhere. I see some communities where they are growing, like Florida and Texas, you know, where a lot of people are moving into and it's growing where you've got some communities where they have a negative, a negative Population, well, growth or lack of growth, and they don't have the tax base to really support it. And you know, one of the, one of the things that schools are doing and you're seeing it right now is, you know, unused buildings are consolidating and they're closing.
- [14:59]
A
Yeah, I wonder too, just given the housing market right now. I mean, you could probably sell your house for a premium, but you're going to be in the same position as that buyer you just sold your house to. You're then going to have to buy another house or condo at a premium. So I'm wondering, are older individuals who likely would have sold their homes and moved sticking where they are? Because I might as well just pay the higher school taxes because it's still too expensive to try and find another home.
- [15:28]
B
Well, you're looking at the perfect example of that, John. So both our kids, we live in the Blue Valley School district. Phenomenal school district. We moved here because of the district. We also understand and support the school district and we support all of the bond issues and whenever they go to the community, because a district, the success of a district does help property values. It maintains property values and the ability to sell. And all of it, all of it goes. We, we would, we're in a position where we would be, we would want to move out, you know, but you know, we could sell our house easily. But then where are you going to move?
- [16:15]
A
Right?
- [16:16]
B
Are you going to move? You know, we know in our area, homes here, when they go up, which is pretty rare, they sell within a day because of the school district. Most of the families that are coming in, the term that I see is regreening is a regreening district. Many of the people from my generation, the baby boomers, you know, typically you move out, younger generation moves in and then that regreens and revitalizes the, the school district. So, you know, we're one of those, we would like to move, but where are you going to move?
- [16:52]
A
Yeah, I was in a similar position and four years ago, still in the housing market, still is hot. I had to pay above asking. And that was just kind of like the de facto standard before you could maybe haggle, but you know, you have to go in hot if you want to, to find a house. These days it's really challenging, especially for first time home buyers that the cost of buying a house, purchasing a house, financing it is just so astronomical, you know, compared to where it was just a few short years ago.
- [17:20]
B
It really is. And you know, I feel bad for the younger generation. But you know, hopefully things will straighten out in the future. But in the meantime, as you were talking about, school districts are, you know, the amount of support and from the community and the parents, that's what's key. And it's also tied to the economy, to the housing community. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, lifts all boats. Right, right.
- [17:55]
A
So when we go back to districts having to kind of limp along and make their facilities work with what they have, how is this shifting the conversation internally for schools from just these short term fixes that we're trying to implement to really long term financial planning?
- [18:12]
B
Yeah, so let me answer that in a couple of ways. So by adopting and embracing the skilled trades will help stabilize their enrollment. These days public schools have to compete. They've got competition from charter schools, from private schools. Homeschooling is at a record high whenever they lose a student. And if it's in a student, if it's in a state voucher, state, state voucher, a voucher state that, which is expanding that, that school district takes a hit on, on the budget. And I believe that with the economic needs and now where we're going with the skilled trades, they need to compete. They need a way to reinvent themselves and give those parents a couple, you know, to think that to stay in that district because of the skilled trades, they offer something that maybe they wouldn't get at a private school or a home school that helps stabilize enrollment. So they first need to do that. Instead of, you know, with the schools now are dealing with declining, declining budgets, they, you know, keep, you know, they need to. Also when you're talking about the skilled trades, it really represents long term stability. When you're talking about, when you're talking about life cycles of a lot of the purchasing that is done. For example, I know a lot of school, schools bought because out of necessity Chromebooks, okay, Chromebooks have a life cycle. Then you got to have a budget to maintain them. But on skilled trades, it's a lot different. You have the equipment, the materials for it. I believe that it's probably a longer life cycle on a lot of the equipment like H vac, automotive and things like that. And you know, I think it's much easier for a school to really plan out sustainable. And if they really want to look at, you know, I think schools need to look at that roi, you know, what, how is this going to develop and build a program that is sustainable in that and that will, that we will be able to grow that district and I mean by means of enrollment so Therefore the budget. So that's where I think it all comes together. You know, I just see that, which is why that, you know, of course the CFO or the purchasing department plays a very vital role in this. They may not think that it may be a curriculum based, which is what I've been told, not necessarily. I think that the, that the school business official, the procurement, they play a very important role in this in order to really look at, look at the costs and to, you know, long term on what the school needs to do. And frankly, it may be something where the school can sell it to the community, you know, for a bond issue or to gain more finances in order to support the skilled trades. I know around here, the school districts, Blue Alley, Shawnee Mission Unified, Olathe, they have adopted the skilled trades and CTE and they've established and they've built innovation campuses, which is where they bring all these trades together and that's where students go. Whereas when I went to Shawnee Mission schools and I graduated years ago, it was just part of the curriculum. You could take automotive, you could take woodworking, and that was just part of it. And then over time they somehow they didn't need the classes or they got rid of them. But now there is a need. It's coming full circle.
- [22:10]
A
Hey everyone. I just wanted to take a moment to thank Today's episode sponsor, UnitedHealthcare. Every school district is unique and your health plan should be too. At UnitedHealthcare, our group health plans are built for you and your employees. Whether you're managing a small district or overseeing a large network of schools, we offer solutions designed to fit your needs, goals and budget. Explore your options today@uhc.com Insurance coverage provided by or through UnitedHealthcare Insurance Company or its affiliates. Administrative services provided by UnitedHealthcare Services Incorporated or their affiliates. Health plan coverage provided by or through a UnitedHealthcare company. Again, thanks to UnitedHealthcare Today for sponsoring the episode. Let's get back to our conversation. So then, what workforce trends are contributing to these gaps in skilled trade? I mean, are we seeing a swath of retirements? Are there training pipelines that need to be reestablished? Is the private sector siphoning off a lot of this? What are you seeing in your research?
- [23:07]
B
Yeah, so great question. A lot, a lot of different things are really forcing this. Nearly 40% of skilled trade workers are age 45 or older. And the retirements, those demographic retirements, is outpacing entry in many of these trade categories. The US Needs hundreds of thousands of new construction and skilled trades workers annually. You're seeing all of the investments coming into the country. AI, ironically, is driving a lot of this with the construction of all these data centers. You've got a lot of companies that are, that are building manufacturing here. So you're going to have a huge need. There are fewer younger workers that are entering into apprenticeship pipelines right now. So therefore, that's why you see Ford Motor Co. Making the statement that they did. And once these factories are all produced, well, then you say, well then is that the end for the skilled trades? No. Manufacturing alone is estimated to face millions of unfilled jobs by 2030. Industry groups are projecting significant labor gaps if workforce pipelines aren't rebuilt. The other thing that you're seeing, John, and I'll just say this too, is recently in the news, you're seeing Amazon, okay? They announced several layoffs of white collar jobs totaling more than 40,000 people. Now, we all know Amazon, we all shop Amazon. They are a successful company. Are they making those changes because they're seeing a decline in sales? No, they're not. They're driving greater efficiencies and effectiveness. And then you also saw that they have plans to lay off hundreds of thousands potentially of workers from their warehouse facilities using robotics. Okay, that's an example of where this is going and where the skilled trades are really headed. But I believe that all of these factors put together is really coming again full circle on our education system. They're producing the future employees for the country.
- [25:35]
A
And how are these challenges really differing across regions and district sizes across the United States? I mean, is it, is there a disproportionate effect based on region? Like what are you seeing in terms of workforce and where you're physically located?
- [25:52]
B
You know, I think that's a great question. I haven't really dug into that. I believe that it depends on the part of the country, like energy. The energy sector, for example, in the Northeast you've got energy and oil. In Texas you've got. Our expanding energy sector just depends upon where they're at, where they're located at. So, yeah, I mean, there are different needs in different parts of the country. Here in the Midwest, you've got huge data centers being built. Are data centers being built across the country or are they geographically being built? In certain parts of the country you've got agriculture. Okay, that for sure. Agriculture. You're dealing with a significant shift on demographics, retirements. Do you have enough people coming in, taking over agriculture, family farms, for example. So I think you can break it down by region. But I would say again, the need is overall, I believe that there's many industries, as you look at it, you've got a lot of companies building back. They're on shoring back in the US.
- [27:22]
A
So I have an interesting anecdote for you. So I was speaking to a good friend of mine and she's a business official in the Buffalo area and I'm a huge Bills fan and the Bills are building a new stadium. And I didn't think about this because I'm not in that region anymore, but she was telling me that her district and some other districts in the Buffalo region have recently struggled to solicit enough bids or competition on their capital construction projects because all of the local workforce is working on this stadium and have bid out jobs on that stadium. So I think that speaks to your point about the, the dwindling skilled trades workforce because there's only so many people to go around and only so many individuals to get the capital work done. If a huge project like a NFL stadium is siphoning off all of that skilled trades, that leaves districts in a really precarious position not only to find qualified companies and contractors, but they're probably having to pay a premium to get the same work done that had the stadium not been undergone construction, it'd be just kind of, you know, status quo.
- [28:36]
B
Well, and John. And that's a great, that's a great call out. We actually have plans where the Chiefs are going to build a new stadium on the Kansas side and they're planning that right now. Building a stadium is a huge undertaking and takes thousands of skilled trades. Let me also go one step further. Housing. We spoke to somebody, a friend of ours, and that last week and we were talking about housing and the housing shortage. Whereas used to take, I don't know, six months depending upon the size of the house and the complexity to build it. So we were told that on average it takes a year to build a house now, a typical house. And do you know why that is? Because there aren't enough skilled laborers to build multiple housing. That they've got one team working on one house and they can't work on the other house until they finish the first house. So that's the reason why that it takes much longer to build a house.
- [29:40]
A
Right. For a few years it was a supply chain issue on the heels of the pandemic, but now it's just a workforce issue.
- [29:47]
B
Absolutely it is. Absolutely it is. And it's only going to get worse.
- [29:53]
A
So let's Talk a little bit more about how districts can strategically budget and proactively plan given all these circumstances. So what does it look like to proactively budget for skilled trades rather than reacting year to year and kind of chasing our tails?
- [30:08]
B
Great question. There's a number of strategies that schools can use. For example, cooperatives come into play, school purchasing cooperatives. They've been around now since the late 1990s and they really help to stabilize school budgeting and procurement. So you know what, you know, you have contracts. Schools don't need to go out for bid. And it's just today with national cooperatives or regional or local cooperatives, that is a tool that schools can definitely use to help stabilize into project out their budget needs. Secondly, John, with the skilled trades, there is funding out there. I mean, there is funding out there. There are grants. The federal government is a huge push on skilled trades. You've got a number of that also work with school districts that will help fund apprenticeships. You'll see that out in the Northeast, for example. So, you know, go to the communities that, you know, talk about selling the school trades. I believe that the schools can take this and really develop a very, very good message going out to this, going out to the communities to, to find that funding and to help these communities understand that, you know, we're not coming to you for just to fund our. It's ongoing. You need to give them a reason. Okay. But there's a number of ways that schools can help, you know, stabilize it. Look at, you know, their funding in a way that they can really stabilize it. The other thing is that once they stabilize enrollment, it's much more predictable right now. It's so unpredictable. You've got a lot of factors that the schools are dealing with. And you know, we're coming off of the, off of all that Covid funding that they had and they did a lot of spending on, you know, shoring up things where they needed to be. They hired staff. And I believe now, and I think that it's painful in some respects, more normalizing their budgeting process, but also they're dealing with the added challenge of declining birth rates and school choice. But I do feel that there are strategies that they can adopt and plan out to really look at it as kind of an ROI process than just being reactive to your point, you know, as many schools right now are working under 20. 26. 20. Yeah, 26, 27 budget year, it's more of a long term play than short term.
- [33:12]
A
Have you seen or do you anticipate seeing the relationships between districts and their union stressed a little bit because as I think through what you're telling me, and it's becoming increasingly challenging to find skilled trade workers, districts may be in a position where they may look to outsource some of the union owned work and that could in turn create stressors on the union administrative relationship. Are you seeing that or do you anticipate maybe that's coming down the line?
- [33:43]
B
I think that's part of it. I do. Right now you're seeing school districts dealing with salary, teacher salary requests in teachers, school districts, teachers may go out on strike for higher, you know, hr, which the number one line item in a school budget is hr. Okay. And so that continues to increase and schools may have to make some difficult choices. They may have to. And you're seeing it continue shrinking the administrative level at the district, you know, which again puts more pressure on the district to serve the needs of the district and the building and the teachers. So I do, I do see that coming in some areas, whereas many districts are dealing with that right now.
- [34:39]
A
So if you could give school business officials one or two concrete actions to take for this budget cycle, gearing up for 26, 27, what would those be?
- [34:51]
B
I would say that, let me think this through. I would say that it would be to strengthen their partnerships with local industry and their local economy. I would definitely look to strengthen those partnerships because they're out there. I would take a look at how does a district enhance their relevance in a changing economy and you know, look at stabilizing their enrollment and look at their long term funding program. I mean those are key. I mean they really are, you know, being able to address the, you know, being proactive in a, in a workforce pathway planning support for long term budget stability. You know, this is all very, very strategic. And I think that, you know, schools will, you know, the way I look at it is the enrollment decline is structural. That's the only way you can look at it. And you know, being, trying to relevance is the solution. Making your district, changing the district. And it might be difficult for some districts that have been doing this year after year after year. I do see districts making this change and they're adopting it and they recognize it. A lot of districts are still struggling with, you know, how do you maintain, how do you stabilize, you know, how do you be relevant that you know, that they are a source for the parents for the students to really go to. I would say also that taking a look at the skilled trades is a way to reduce debt. Being able to create a narrative to be not only an education. Where their kids go to school, but also provide solutions, be a destination rather than just going and, you know, go into math class and for, you know, getting it going eight hours a day or six hours a day. Districts need to align with workforce reality that will stabilize faster than those that don't. And I think this is a. I think it's. As I've always said, we're at a crossroads within education and schools, really. Those, Those that recognize it, those are the ones that will be able to overcome and. And experience a renaissance in what education will be for the future and for now.
- [37:45]
A
So this is obviously a major issue and shouldn't be dealt with in a vacuum. What would be your advice for school business officials on how to effectively communicate these challenges to their boards of education, their communities, and those that should really be aware of the challenges that districts are facing with skilled trades?
- [38:04]
B
I would say yeah, developing relationships does a couple of things. First of all, they really need to develop and drive relationships with local businesses and government to know what they're doing. Something called marketing. Schools have never had to do that before because they were never in a position like this before. A couple of years ago, I attended California asbo and I remember sitting there and the president of California asked, oh, I can't think of her name offhand, but she came from the private sector. And I remember sitting in a breakout where she talked about that many schools may not have it, that they're going to need to really develop and add a line item for marketing. Communicate to your community, communicate to businesses. The other thing, John, is school boards. School boards are going to be forced, whether they're doing this now or not, to take a much bigger role than they have in the past traditionally, because the department of education is shrinking. And you can't depend on that doe to drive that narrative. It's got to be at the local level. And I think that schools need to step it up and to have a relationship with the school board, because many school board members are from businesses, from local businesses. And so I think that this is where the schools really need to, if they're not doing it already, they really need to really communicate and drive that narrative not only for themselves, but also for financial stability, where the community will be more supportive of future tax bonds or levy requests, that the community will better understand what these schools are all about and why this funding is needed for our future.
- [40:09]
A
Well said. Well, you've given us a lot to consider as we build our budget for 2627. And to your earlier point, this isn't an issue that seems to be getting any easier and something to be considering beyond the next budget year. But Chuck, thank you for taking time today and joining me on School Business Insider.
- [40:28]
B
Well, and I appreciate that, John. And I gotta tell you, I'm so passionate about it. If anybody would like to continue conversations, I have a lot of connections. As I said, I retired from Staples. I didn't retire from education. And I think that the skilled trades, this isn't about going backward. It's not a stigma like it used to be. They're about moving education forward in a way that reflects economic reality, student needs and fiscal responsibility. That's the bottom line. We have got to change our education system where it supports our kids today and what their future is going to look like.
- [41:12]
A
Great. Well said, Chuck. Thank you again for joining me today.
- [41:16]
B
Appreciate it, John. Thank you.
- [41:20]
A
Thank you for tuning in to School Business Insider. Make sure to check back each week for your favorite topics on school business.