The School Food Procurement Puzzle: Challenges, Solutions & Innovation

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The School Food Procurement Puzzle: Challenges, Solutions & Innovation"

Podcast Information:

• Title: School Business Insider
• Host: John Brucato
• Description: ASBO International's official podcast. Each week, host John Brucato engages with school business professionals and industry experts worldwide to share stories and explore pivotal topics in school business operations.
• Episode: The School Food Procurement Puzzle: Challenges, Solutions & Innovation
• Release Date: April 1, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of School Business Insider, host John Brucato delves into the complexities of school food procurement—a critical component that ensures students are well-nourished and ready to learn. Joining him are Sasha Pouliot, School Business Administrator for Hillsdale Board of Education, New Jersey, and Darren Crawford, Assistant Superintendent for Support Services at Cypress-Fairbanks Independent School District (Cypress-Fairbanks ISD), Texas. Both guests bring unique perspectives from different scales of districts, shedding light on the intricate challenges and innovative solutions in the realm of school food purchasing.

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Understanding the Food Advisory Procurement Workgroup

John initiates the conversation by seeking clarity on the Food Advisory Procurement Workgroup, aiming to elucidate its mission, participants, and origin.

Darren Crawford explains that the Urban School Food Alliance, now in its second year of a three-year USDA-funded program, was established to address six major pain points in the procurement process identified in its inaugural year. The workgroup comprises stakeholders including school districts, School Food Authorities (SFAs), regulatory bodies, and vendors. The alliance's objective is to enhance the procurement framework by integrating feedback from diverse participants to streamline processes and foster innovation.

Sasha Pouliot adds that under the leadership of Dr. Katie Wilson, former Undersecretary of USDA, the alliance has been instrumental in reevaluating and reimagining food procurement strategies to better serve both districts and vendors.

Notable Quote:

"...the Urban School Food alliance... was the largest challenge to what we do to try and get kids fed is to try and navigate all of those regulations."
— Darren Crawford [06:12]

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Challenges in School Food Procurement

The discussion delves into the myriad challenges faced in school food procurement, emphasizing regulatory hurdles, forecasting difficulties, and strained vendor relationships.

Regulatory Complexities and Bureaucratic Hurdles

Both guests highlight the labyrinth of federal, state, and local regulations that complicate the procurement process. Sasha points out that varying state-specific requirements and the absence of a standardized procurement language create significant barriers for small vendors and local farmers attempting to bid on contracts.

Notable Quote:

"There’s the lack of common language and the lack of just coordination from the top down, important guidance materials that are useful to us, but also useful to our vendors and our procurement specialists."
— Sasha Pouliot [09:20]

Forecasting and Payment Delays

Darren sheds light on the financial strain caused by extended payment terms—from invoicing to actual payment—often spanning 45 days. This delay adversely affects vendors, particularly smaller ones, who bear the cost of inventory without timely reimbursement.

Notable Quote:

"A PO is a promise to pay. In a lot of cases, it's also a promise to pay late."
— Darren Crawford [11:37]

Similarly, Sasha echoes these sentiments, noting that extended payment periods can undermine vendor relationships and dissuade participation in competitive bidding.

Vendor Barriers and Reduced Competition

The stringent RFP (Request for Proposal) requirements disproportionately disadvantage small vendors and local farmers, reducing competition and stifling innovation. Darren remarks on the complexities that deter smaller businesses from entering the market, thereby limiting diversity and potentially inflating costs due to reduced competition.

Notable Quote:

"The amount of hoops that someone has to jump through to bid on our business... is a barrier to entry to this market."
— Sasha Pouliot [11:58]

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Innovative Solutions and Collaborative Strategies

Despite these challenges, both Sasha and Darren discuss proactive measures and collaborative strategies aimed at improving the procurement landscape.

Standardizing Procurement Processes

A key solution proposed is the standardization of procurement language and processes across states, facilitated by technology. Sasha envisions a platform that unifies bid language and simplifies vendor participation, thereby lowering entry barriers.

Notable Quote:

"For me, it would be modernizing the procurement process... connect somebody in New Jersey with someone in Oregon."
— Sasha Pouliot [45:05]

Darren concurs, emphasizing the need for a national clearinghouse—akin to SAM.gov—for streamlined documentation and reduced redundancy in state-specific requirements.

Enhancing Communication and Support

Effective communication between school business officials, food service directors, and vendors is paramount. Darren advocates for a supportive approach where procurement departments assist potential vendors in navigating RFP responses rather than deterring them.

Notable Quote:

"Be the department that helps people say yes, instead of the department that helps people say no."
— Darren Crawford [37:14]

Leveraging Local Partnerships

Both guests highlight the importance of cultivating relationships with local farmers and vendors to foster a more resilient and responsive food supply chain. Darren notes the challenges of aligning local agricultural outputs with school menus but emphasizes the educational value of such partnerships.

Notable Quote:

"Understanding that there is like the... it's a good thing for those local producers when they can serve their community."
— Darren Crawford [46:29]

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Impact of Economic Factors on Procurement

The economic climate, marked by inflation and supply chain disruptions, has significantly impacted school food procurement.

Sasha discusses how rising costs and inflation have constrained budgetary flexibility, forcing districts to make tough decisions that balance nutritional standards with cost-effectiveness. Labor shortages further exacerbate these challenges, leading to high turnover in kitchen staff and diminishing culinary creativity.

Notable Quote:

"Inflation has factored into the cost of food and the rise in prices there... It's always healthy, obviously, it always meets nutritional standards. But, you know, whether it meets nutritional standards and whether it meets the... that's always contrary."
— Sasha Pouliot [23:08]

Darren adds that economic pressures necessitate more accurate forecasting and efficient procurement planning to mitigate cost increases and ensure steady supply chains.

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Best Practices and Lessons Learned

As the conversation progresses, Sasha and Darren share valuable lessons from their experiences in food procurement.

Proactive Planning and Menu Forecasting

Darren emphasizes the importance of long-term menu planning to enhance forecasting accuracy. By focusing on staple proteins and allowing flexibility for peripheral items like fresh fruits and vegetables, districts can better anticipate their needs and stabilize their procurement processes.

Notable Quote:

"If you plan your menu out in advance, then you lose some flexibility and that, that can be a real challenge."
— Darren Crawford [29:16]

Building Strong Vendor Relationships

Maintaining open lines of communication with vendors fosters trust and collaboration. Darren underscores the significance of viewing vendors as partners and being receptive to their feedback to improve procurement practices.

Notable Quote:

"Reach out, seek out those conversations and find ways to actually partner with them."
— Darren Crawford [44:38]

Embracing Technology and Modernization

Both experts advocate for leveraging technology to streamline procurement processes. The development of electronic bidding systems and e-procurement platforms is seen as a pivotal step towards standardization and increased efficiency.

Notable Quote:

"The platform that's being developed... will go a long way to legitimizing and standardizing the language that a lot of these vendors are looking for."
— Sasha Pouliot [38:44]

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, both Sasha and Darren reflect on the future of school food procurement.

• Sasha envisions a modernized procurement process that connects districts across states, enhancing flexibility and broadening procurement capabilities.

• Darren champions the facilitation of local and regional procurement, recognizing the mutual benefits for schools and local producers.

Notable Quote:

"I think that is the future, and I think that, you know, everybody recognizes that."
— Sasha Pouliot [21:16]

John Brucato concludes by expressing gratitude to his guests for their insightful contributions and underscores the ongoing evolution of food procurement processes aimed at reducing barriers and fostering better vendor relationships.

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Key Takeaways

• Regulatory Complexity: Navigating diverse federal, state, and local regulations remains a significant challenge in school food procurement.

• Financial Strain on Vendors: Extended payment terms and forecasting difficulties place undue pressure on vendors, particularly smaller businesses.

• Need for Standardization: Uniform procurement language and processes can lower barriers for vendors and enhance competition.

• Importance of Communication: Open and supportive communication between school officials and vendors is crucial for effective procurement.

• Leveraging Technology: Electronic bidding systems and e-procurement platforms are essential tools for modernizing procurement processes.

• Local Partnerships: Strengthening relationships with local farmers and vendors can lead to more resilient and responsive food supply chains.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "There’s the lack of common language and the lack of just coordination from the top down, important guidance materials that are useful to us, but also useful to our vendors and our procurement specialists."
  — Sasha Pouliot [09:20]

• "A PO is a promise to pay. In a lot of cases, it's also a promise to pay late."
  — Darren Crawford [11:37]

• "When we do an RFP, right, like, we will say, this is what we anticipate spending, right?"
  — Darren Crawford [16:12]

• "Be the department that helps people say yes, instead of the department that helps people say no."
  — Darren Crawford [37:14]

• "The platform that's being developed... will go a long way to legitimizing and standardizing the language that a lot of these vendors are looking for."
  — Sasha Pouliot [38:44]

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Final Remarks

This episode of School Business Insider offers a comprehensive exploration of the challenges and innovations in school food procurement. By bringing together insights from professionals operating at different scales, the discussion highlights the universal obstacles and tailored solutions that can pave the way for a more efficient, equitable, and sustainable procurement process in educational institutions.

Listeners are encouraged to reflect on their own procurement practices and consider the collaborative and technological advancements discussed to enhance their food service operations.

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Thank you for reading this summary of "The School Food Procurement Puzzle: Challenges, Solutions & Innovation." For more insightful discussions on school business operations, tune into School Business Insider each week.

Transcript

[John Brucato]

You're listening to ASBO International's School Business Insider. I'm your host, John Brucato. Each week on School Business Insider, I sit down with school business officials and industry experts from around the world to share their stories and explore the topics that matter most to you. Find out what it means to be a school business official and get your insider pass on all things school business. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to School Business Insider, the podcast where we dive into the critical issues shaping school business operations. Today, we're tackling a topic that affects every school district. Food procurement. Our guest, Sasha Pouliot, school business Administrator for Hillsdale Board of Education, and Darren Crawford, Assistant Superintendent for Support Services at Cypress Fairbanks isd, join us to discuss their work with the Food Advisory Procurement Workgroup. We'll explore the complexities of school food purchasing, from navigating regulatory hurdles to aligning federal, state and local policies, while also covering challenges like forecasting the RFP process and the impact of being less than optimal customers in the supply chain. Whether you manage school nutrition programs or oversee procurement, this conversation is packed with insights to help you improve efficiency and compliance. Sasha and Darren, welcome to School Business Insider. I'm so happy to have you.

[Sasha Pouliot]

Thank you, John. Happy to be here.

[Darren Crawford]

Thank you.

[John Brucato]

Great. So, Sasha, maybe we can kick it off and you can just give our listeners a little bit of your background and just, you know, a little bit of your. Your story of how you got here today.

[Sasha Pouliot]

Absolutely. So I'm Sasha Pouliot. I'm the school business official in Hillsdale in New Jersey. We are a small suburban district with under 1200 students currently in the district. We are a K8 district and we operate our food nutrition program through a, through a management contract with our food service providers, Masho's Food Services. But prior to being in Hillsdale, I was in Norwood and prior to that I was in a private school that was a self op through the National School Lunch program. And you know, most important thing is making sure that our kids are fed and that they're best shaped to learn throughout the course of the day. So, you know, the lunch, lunch and the lunch program are two big things in our district that we pride ourselves on.

[John Brucato]

Great. Well, welcome on again. And Darren, how about you?

[Darren Crawford]

Hi. So I am at Cypress Fairbanks Independent School District that is a suburban district outside of Houston, Texas. So we are a little larger. We're about 118,000 students. We are self operated in our nutrition services department and actually due to the size in our nutrition services department, we actually have our own procurement department. Within that department which works with our central procurement in my role as this is a superintendent for support services, Nutrition services is one area that I have, and then procurement as well as an area that I have. So that kind of put me in an interesting position to kind of see it from both sides, from procurement and from the side of the operator.

[John Brucato]

So entirely different scales, but obviously the same mission of making sure that we're keeping our students fed and healthy, ready to learn. So glad to have the both of you on. So why don't we start by just explaining what the food advisory procurement work group is. For those who may not be familiar, could you just maybe tell me who is involved, what's its mission and how did it come about?

[Darren Crawford]

Sure. So Sasha, you've been on it longer, right? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna defer to you.

[Sasha Pouliot]

I haven't, but I'd be happy to answer the question. Yeah, so the, the, the Urban School Food. The Urban School Food alliance was formed out of a co op with the, the USDA Department of Agriculture. And again, this is, this is. We're on year two of a three year program where the first year they identified six pain points that was really struggling or having schools struggle with the procurement process. So they brought together all the stakeholders from various facets of the procurement process, whether it be school districts, SFAs, regulatory vendors, and put them all in a room and really just kind of had the, the, the wherewithal to, to hear, listen to the feedback, put all that on, on, on paper and, and try to develop something that would best help districts, vendors, again, all those stakeholders through the procurement process.

[John Brucato]

So, so was there a breaking point? I mean, was everybody getting frustrated with how things were going? Was it not working out for school districts? Was it not working out for food service providers and vendors? What ultimately made this work group and this alliance kind of come together?

[Darren Crawford]

So I think with Urban School Food alliance, they've been together, I think they are about 8 or 10 years at this point. And they really initially started out with like four school districts that were really big districts to try and do procurement on an even larger scale. So I think procurement was one of the things that brought them together. A few years ago they got a new executive director, Dr. Katie Wilson, who prior to that she had been the undersecretary of USDA. Like, Dr. Wilson has done all kinds of amazing things. So she, I think was kind of instrumental in getting this grant from USDA to say, how can we radically rethink food procurement? And I think as far as Breaking point. I mean, I can speak for, for folks that I have working for me in procurement and my time as a child nutrition director, yes, it is the, it's the largest challenge to what we do to try and get kids fed is to try and navigate all of those regulations.

[John Brucato]

And we, we actually had Katie and Dottie on, on our December 3 episode. For all of those interested in learning more about the, the Urban Food alliance, we have a great episode bringing them both on to kind of break down everything that they've done and are doing for school districts. So tell me a little bit more about the actual food advisory procurement work group that both of you were a part of more recently. What role did you play in this work group and what were some of the kind of the objectives of bringing everybody together?

[Darren Crawford]

I think one of the big things really in this work group, as Sasha said, this is year two of three. So they had identified those pain points. And I think this session was more about making sure those pain points are still relevant after having had a year to kind of reflect on that. There was also some research from the Kennedy School of Government out of Harvard on regulations for public procurement, specifically for food procurement across the US so I think they looked at 21 states as part of their study. They kind of reported back on that. And then we spent a good bit of time really thinking about if we had a different procurement model for food. Like what, you know, just imagine, dream big, what it could be. And so we spent some time talking about that as well, like what, what procurement could be if we had our druthers, so to speak.

[John Brucato]

So, so you both are in very different schools in terms of size and scale. Talk to me about what school business officials can do to collaborate with food service directors, their food service providers and vendors to really improve the procurement process. Darren, you were just talking about kind of pie in the sky. What, what does that look like and, and what is your current role in terms of how you interact.

[Darren Crawford]

So for me, I have a very good relationship with our child nutrition folks because that is, you know, that's where I came from in my story. So that's, you know, that was my world with our vendors. I think that is really one of the eye opening things for me and got some real meaning out of this work group, like working with some of the vendors, talking one on one about just procurement, you know, not about what are you buying from me, but just procurement in general, that there are ways that we're really not the best customers. And as an operator, I never really, you know, Took time to reflect on maybe how I'm not a good customer. And so that to me was very eye opening and I think, you know, certainly forecasting better and trying to hit our marks of things that we're putting out there in RFP that would make us better and I think also help procurement in general.

[John Brucato]

And Sasha, what about you? What has been kind of your stance in lens in terms of the relationship of school business? Official food service director, vendors procurement process. What has been your experience?

[Sasha Pouliot]

Yeah, so similar to what Darren said, we've seen increases in cost of labor, increases in cost of goods, and that directly impacts our vendors. And I was never really, you know, I never realized how I wasn't a good, I may not be a good fit for a vendor, you know, working in the world of schools. I, you know, you know, you set, you issue a PO and it's a promise to pay. And you know, so having gone through that exercise with all those individuals in the room and really, again, exploring not necessarily what, what is Hillsdale's growing pains, but what are the growing pains of middle America where their pains are not the same as mine, you know, where you may have logistical issues, where a route is just not economically sound for a, for a vendor to, to send their goods to a district. And so there's no route, there's no established route. So it's a, it was a learning process and, but at the same time it was rewarding because it, you know, one of the things that, that, that was clearly voiced in our meetings was, you know, the lack of common language and the lack of just coordination from the top down, important guidance materials that are useful to us, but also useful to our vendors and our procurement specialists. So, you know, it was eye opening again, this being year two of three, but Darren and I's first here on the panel. So again, having being able to provide that insight and provide what it's like from, from our side of the fence, I think is it was definitely important and needed.

[John Brucato]

So it's interesting, you know, you think being a school district, you're one of like the most prized clients because, you know, we, we have a solid revenue source. You know, like you said, Sasha, PO is a promise to pay. Talk to me a little bit more about what this not so great customer really looks like from the vendor side. It sounds like it's more than just money, you know, Sasha, you meant just kind of proximity. Anything else that really like dissuades vendors maybe from participating or bidding on a school food service contract or otherwise?

[Sasha Pouliot]

Sure. I mean, you could go so far as to say the lack of, like I mentioned before, you know, common language and the lack of clarity as to, you know, what. What is needed in order for. For a small vendor or a small farmer to. To put a. Submit a bid on. On. On a contract. Like, they. They may not be equipped to. To navigate those waters.

[Darren Crawford]

So I think there are several things. I mean, one, yes, a PO is a promise to pay. In a lot of cases, it's also a promise to pay late. And I think that's, you know, it never really even occurred to me because I just, I've never thought of it, you know, from the other side of the fence. But, you know, for us, we are. Our district pays in 45 days. Like, that's what we put on all of our contracts. And really the reason for that is to ensure that there's adequate time for school board meetings to get approval. And, you know, we're not committing to something without the school board giving approval. But the reality of it is that that's, you know, most of our stuff is on contract anyway. That approval has already been given, like a year ago. But, like, that's our reason. So, you know, we don't really pursue discounts for timely pay. And so, like, that 45 is a huge thing, you know, especially like, again, scope and scale. You know, I might have my. My milk bill for the month might be $3 million, and then I'm only paying it once a month. And then it's 45 days after it's, you know, the invoice is delivered. So really, I might have had part of that milk, you know, for a month and a half before it's being paid for. Then you look at the smaller vendor, things like Sasha was talking about, the amount of hoops that someone has to jump through to bid on our business. I think that is a big thing that it's, you know, for a smaller farmer or a smaller company, that's a barrier to entry to this market. Not to mention. And this is really kind of speaks to the work of the. The work group. You know, the paperwork informs that you have to do to do business with me. Or one thing, if you were wanting to do business with Sasha. Well, there's some things that are federal and that's all the same, but then there are going to be some things specific to New Jersey, some things specific to Texas. For a company that's, you know, just trying to get into the business, that can be overwhelming. And for companies that are in business, I mean, some of the folks in the work group, you know, they are nationwide businesses and, you know, the amount of money and resources that they have to spend just to do bids is, is crazy. When we do an rfp, right, like, we will say, this is what we anticipate spending, right? And usually, you know, in a lot of cases, like, that's just one thing for the year, right? We're saying we are going to spend half a million dollars on, you know, chicken tenders this year. And then people bid and respond to that. Well, if I get the chicken tenders and suddenly that's out of favor and my kids don't like that I spend a quarter of a million dollars in chicken tenders. Well, there's language in my bid that says, hey, I'm going to hold you firm on the price. But, you know, if things change, well, things change. So that makes me a bad customer if, if I do that. And the fact that I don't really say, you know, this half a million dollars, I'm going to need it, you know, a hundred thousand this month, this month, this month, this month. And I'm going to place my orders for this month, this month, this month, this month. So I don't. An, I guess speaking for our, our industry in general, like, we, we don't always do a good job of forecasting when we're going to buy and how much we're going to buy and holding to that. Whereas if I'm a food manufacturer and I'm selling to McDonald's, well, I dictate, I say, you know what, McDonald's, if you want this price, this is what you're going to buy, this is when you're going to buy it. And I schedule my production and everything, you know, flows from that. And McDonald's sticks with it.

[John Brucato]

Yes. A little bit more predictability and a guarantee in terms of what the vendor is signing up for. You know, I have to say, Darren, I think personally I would be a good customer because just my two and a half year old, I think I spend about half a million dollars a year on, on chicken tenders. But I guess that's, that's for another conversation. So I want to, I want to circle back to a couple things you had mentioned in terms of really barriers to entry. You said, you know, there's a lot of hoops to jump through. And I completely agree with you. Do you feel that just those complexities and those nuances of responding to a bid in RFP are really diminishing competition? And is that, in essence, maybe not as advantageous for school districts because there's less competition in theory, less to drive prices down. What has been your experience with those regulatory and local federal hoops to jump through?

[Darren Crawford]

So for us, I don't know if it drives competition down in general. However, it does exclude small groups from the market. So, you know, one of the folks on the work group, he has a small company that he's really, you know, trying to grow that company and he doesn't have, you know, the resources to do all of these bids and all of the different bids. So I think that's, I don't know if it drives down competition, but I think it certainly, it drives down a level of innovation, I think if that makes sense, you know, because you don't have those small people. And then, you know, a big part of what I think we're trying to do nationwide is really have school districts work with, you know, local farmers. We want to do that everywhere. And if I'm a local farmer, you know, I didn't go to RFP school. I'm not getting up and you know, when I get up, I'm feeding the cows, I'm not getting up and thinking about did I do business with anybody who might support Israel in some states or in some states did I do business with anybody who might boycott Israel? And like these are all like real documents that people then have to print out and sign and you know, swear under penalty of perjury and like really they just want to sell some, some chicken, right? And I know I said they were milking the cows and then they're selling chicken, so maybe we scratch that because.

[John Brucato]

They'Re doing a lot, you know, the farmers are busy.

[Darren Crawford]

Doesn't make me sound very good.

[John Brucato]

And then it sounds like too, to your point of, you know, maybe a net term of 45 days after the invoice and you could be sitting on this product for a long time. All the while these businesses are shouldering that cost, right, because they, their inventory is sitting with you. Has that been kind of one of the biggest talking points saying it's, it's challenging for us to participate because we have a huge outlay of capital while you're using our product and we're not getting paid for it.

[Sasha Pouliot]

I think it's, there's an equity piece to that too because, you know, as, as Darren mentioned, you know, we have, he has a 45 day promise to pay similar to us. We usually pay within the, within month of receiving an invoice. But you have restaurants, again, these vendors are dealing with restaurants directly. And you Know, the restaurants are, Are, Are, Are turning around within two weeks and.

[John Brucato]

Right.

[Sasha Pouliot]

You know, so they're a much better partner to be, To, To. To be playing with. Even though we're Steady Eddie, we're there and we're, We're. We're always trying to, to, to navigate those waters. We have, you know, we have competition, if you will, with restaurants and with their distributors and suppliers. So, you know, if the resources go in that direction, you only have yourself to blame and the handcuffs that we're faced with.

[John Brucato]

Right, right. Has there been conversation about maybe a more standardized approach to bid and RFP language? I mean, I don't think there's a, A solution for everything because I think, Darren, to your point, each state has its own nuances and differences, but has that been discussed at all, maybe standardizing bid language?

[Sasha Pouliot]

So, to answer your question, I think part of the work that the co op has been going and has been doing has been to try to streamline a lot of these issues similar, like you mentioned, the regulatory complexities or the, or the language barriers that may stand in the way. So, you know, I think that the usda, the Urban School Food alliance, they recognize that technology is really guiding this conversation in a direction where we can standardize this. We can, you know, we can put this on a platform and legitimize the process and make it a little bit easier. You know, there's a lot of thoughts and ideas that are going behind that and to make it work. But, you know, I, I think that is the future, and I think that, you know, everybody recognizes that.

[Darren Crawford]

Yeah, no, I just, I agree. I think that is. Some standardization is going to have to happen and technology is going to be what drives that. You know, we talked about a little bit about, like, you know, with SAM.gov, you know, how that is a clearinghouse for some information. All of these, you know, federal forms that need to be signed off. Like, it would be nice if there was, you know, if it was an extension of SAM.gov or another national clearinghouse like that, where, where those documents could reside so that if I am dealing with someone, then I'm at least it's only my state documents that I need to chase down. And then even some, you know, when we were having our pie in the sky conversation, like, if it could look like anything. Well, if it could look like anything, I think that the idea would be that if we're spending federal money, here are the federal rules. You know, as a state, if you want to accept this federal money, don't put any More rules on it. And I think that could, you know, possibly be leveraged through usda. I. I don't know if that would ever happen. But really, I think that is the biggest thing that complicates it is that every state has their own rule, and then every school board has their own local purchasing policy. And usually it's set up where whatever the most restrictive is, that's what you go with. So it is confusing. So it'd be great to see that streamlined.

[John Brucato]

So, Sasha, you touched on this a little bit earlier, but how has the economic or the current economic climate, whether it be supply chain disruptions, inflation, how has it affected procurement in schools in recent years?

[Sasha Pouliot]

If I'm looking at my bottom line, it's impacted it negatively. There's a lot of different factors that factor into that bottom line number and why it looks the way it does. Yes, inflation has factored into the cost of food and the rise in prices there, you know, what we decide to put on our menus is obviously, you know, is always constantly changing based on that number. Unfortunately, you know, the price dictates what the kids will eat in some instances, but, you know, and it's always healthy, Obviously, it always meets nutritional standards. But, you know, whether it meets nutritional standards and whether it meets the. The growing palates of our children's taste buds, that's always contrary, if you ask me.

[John Brucato]

So has that creativity been a bit stifled lately then?

[Sasha Pouliot]

Creativity? Well, yes, in a sense that again, we've had staffing shortages. So you get a chef in the kitchen who's establishing himself with the community and with the kids that he's feeding, and all of a sudden a better opportunity opens up for that chef to eat. He leaves now, bringing somebody in. And of course, he's got the working knowledge of the crew that's with him in the kitchen with her. But ultimately they're starting fresh and they're learning, and that creativity goes with the individual out the door when they leave. So there's a lot of moving parts.

[John Brucato]

To that question, and I imagine that has to be challenging in a sense that, you know, that that's happening in the background. You had an established chef that had a good rapport with their staff. They get a better offer. Can't blame them for that, and they move on. But what the parents and the students are seeing is maybe a decline in the level of service they've seen, or they maybe the offerings aren't what they used to be. How do you grapple with that? Are you proactively communicating these changes? I Mean, you know, I think there is an opportunity for too much communication, but I guess it's all very nuanced in your district. But how are you tackling those, those challenges?

[Sasha Pouliot]

Yeah, that's a great question. So we are meeting monthly with our food, our food directors. I'm on the phone with them weekly, if not more than that. This year I've had over a 50% turnover in my kitchen staff. I only have three buildings, but those three buildings suffered significant turnover. And as a result, I've pressured my food management companies to provide me with some solid individuals to fill those gaps in the interim and provide high level guidance and tutelage to the individuals they hire. So with all that said, what am I doing with the community? Well, we had a food advisory committee for each of the schools. They meet three times a year. So those pain points are obviously communicated to them at those times. As far as the turnovers, we don't really communicate that out to the community. They don't necessarily recognize it as much as the feedback the kids are coming home with, you know, changes. Right, right. So we try to keep it as seamless as possible, you know, try to not. No disruptions and I think we achieve that. But you know, being intimate with the situation, you know, you could be doing better and there are things that you could do that are better.

[John Brucato]

Have you ever considered about maybe pivoting to bringing the operation in house? Do you feel that they. That may bring more stability and sustainability in your program?

[Sasha Pouliot]

Absolutely. You know, a self op is, you know, I've worked self op in the past. I think it's a great program if you're able to do it. Given the size of my district, given the labor costs in the state of New Jersey, it would be a challenge for a district of my size to succeed in that endeavor. If I had larger, if I had a larger population, whether it be in my elementary schools or my middle school, that would be a different conversation. But just given our set of circumstances, I don't think it's a great decision at this time.

[John Brucato]

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm very similarly situated to you. I'm K12, but we're still relatively small. So there really is a cost benefit analysis of, you know, does bringing in everything in shop, although you have ultimate control over it from a cost benefit perspective, is it, does it really make sense? It's a, it's a tough line to draw, but yeah, we, we have a food service management company that thankfully has been going well. We just transitioned to them Last year. And it was a rocky introduction, but I think we smoothed a lot of that out. But you make some good points. I mean, it'd be love, it would be great to have your own operation. But it's just, you know, economies of scale can be challenging sometimes.

[Sasha Pouliot]

Right. This past year in New Jersey, they, they initiated a breakfast for students program where, you know, certain schools, if they were above a certain free and reduced rate, were required to provide breakfast to their students. One of my three schools qualified for that and we, we implemented a, a breakfast program. I'd be lying to you if I told you that program was successful. I have a very, very low attendance in the morning for my breakfast program. Despite our best efforts of publicizing it, reaching out to the community. The fact of the matter is the population they're trying to capture is a busing population that just cannot get to school in advance of the bell.

[John Brucato]

Sure.

[Sasha Pouliot]

And providing that breakfast ahead of the bell isn't an option either. It interferes too much with the academic rigor that that's in place in those classrooms. So, you know, it's sounds good on paper.

[Darren Crawford]

Right.

[John Brucato]

I mean, it just kind of makes sense.

[Sasha Pouliot]

It sounds wonderful on paper. It's just unfortunately, again, when we're talking about the bottom line, I have, I'm operating in, you know, a mandated program at a deficit as a result of, you know, of what I was told I was need, I need to do.

[John Brucato]

Sure, yeah. So, Darren, you mentioned this earlier about forecasting, but what are some strategies schools can implement to improve their forecasting and procurement planning to be those better customers that we're talking about?

[Darren Crawford]

I think it, it really does come down to planning and menu planning specifically. I think that the further out a school can plan their menu, the better, you know, they can be at forecasting. The struggle with that is that if you plan your menu out, you know, in advance, then you lose some flexibility and that, that can be a real challenge. So like, one of the strategies that we use is really for our long term planning, we kind of focus on the protein in the center of the plate like that. We're planning in advance, you know, knowing that the sides like, you know, ideally, optimally, we're getting some fresh fruits and vegetables, you know, from somebody local. So we want to have flexibility there. But those side items, that's where you can really, you know, have more flexibility. And those protein center of the plate items, like, that's going to be, you know, your high cost item anyway. So we, we utilize a lot of federal commodities both in house because we have a central kitchen, so we do some processing in house, like brown box commodities. And then we, you know, have companies that we work with as processors as well on those. You're kind of forced to do your. Your forecasting pretty well because you're forecasting with USDA on what you're going to need and where it's going to go, and you have to do that about a year in advance. And. But that also is its own set of challenges because you really, you need to tell USDA where you're going to be like, I'll use cheese for an example. So mozzarella cheese. I use USDA mozzarella cheese to make pizza, and I contract with somebody to make that pizza for me. I have to let USDA know, you know, about a year and a half out where I'm going to be sending that mozzarella cheese, which then forces me to do a bid for my pizza even further in advance than I normally would, which, you know, in an effort to lock in a fixed price, you know, I think that's driving my cost up because of the way that I have to do it to take advantage of the cheese. So. But I think the forecasting model that we use for commodities, implementing that on some of our items that are not commodities, is really the way to go, because we do, you know, as operators, we have to forecast those items. So I think we can use those lessons, you know, to help forecast, forecast some of our other items that we're just buying commercially.

[John Brucato]

Have you established relationships with kind of hyper local vendors or farmers to encourage that local sourcing of food items? I mean, is that something that districts have been proactive on and trying to encourage that? Because like you said earlier, farmers aren't. They didn't go to RFP school, right. So they're more concerned about sustaining their farm and being able to sell their product. Have you been proactively interacting with local vendors and farmers?

[Darren Crawford]

So we have, and it is a challenge because we are in a big agricultural state. Texas has a lot of agriculture, unfortunately, fruits and vegetables. Most of those, they're in the months where when we're not in school and the stuff that is grown in the cooler months for us, it's not really stuff that kids are gonna want. If I go, great. We have these very local turnip greens, and we're like, well, that's awesome.

[John Brucato]

You tell me. Elementary kids don't want to eat turnip greens.

[Darren Crawford]

Good for you. Thank you. Do you have some kale too, sir? No. You know, so we don't. Get that. But it does give us an opportunity to introduce kids to those items. So in all seriousness, like, we, we do use, you know, some of those items really to try and get interest and not just interest, but education. And hey, this is where your food supply comes from. I mean like New Jersey. I'm going to throw it to Sasha with like the best segue I have to the day. Like you're the Garden State.

[Sasha Pouliot]

Well, I, I, you know, out of the work group, I thought someone brought it up and it was, it was, you know, define local. You know, like someone please define local. And nobody had a response to that. You know, whether it would be 60 mile, 90 mile. You know, it was just kind of like open ended to Darren's point. You know, there's some, some states that are just not equipped to, to, to meet that local mandate if it's, if it's in, in the bid itself. So for, for me, you know, again, you know, it's not to say I don't have those, those issues, but you know, the, the parameter, the, the perimeter of where, where I'm getting my local foods grows, you know. Right. And New Jersey's not as garden filled as, as its name may. May suggest.

[John Brucato]

So we talked about standardizing language. Let's kind of focus a little bit more into the importance of communication. You know, how do you feel school business officials can really simplify the communication and use plain language to ensure that, you know, stakeholders have access to timely, accurate information? I mean, I think this is a big crux of the issue. I think it just kind of goes hand in hand with local government and just government in general. But you know, what role can we play in simplifying that communication and using the same language or similar language to make sure people aren't losing out on bids, on technicalities and people know what the, what the expectations are and what payment is. What can we do to aid in that process?

[Darren Crawford]

So I mean, I'll say one thing that we have done is we've really sought out farmers and our state agency has helped with that. Like they've gotten, you know, interested farmers can sign up and be put in a database for them. And so that, you know, then we have access to those farmers and really talk to them. And you know, once, you know, some farmers, then they can introduce you to others who might not have ever even thought that that was a possibility. And you know, I think certainly using, not being afraid to use our expertise to help people fill out a response. And I think that is really, to me that's One of the, the big things is, you know, I think some folks would be very hesitant to say, let me help you, potential vendor fill out this response. But I think as long as you're willing to help anyone who asks right then, you know, there's no conflict there. And I think that is, you know, and again, it's where I'm. I know that I'm very lucky in my area where I have kind of in child nutrition, I have procurement folks. But, you know, I think that is really in just my general procurement that I do. The. The big thing that I try to preach to all the staff there is like, be the department that helps people say yes, you know, instead of the department that helps people say no. So I, I'll just. I think that attitude can certainly help.

[Sasha Pouliot]

I mean, just to jump off Darren's point, I think it's important to also address the accountability measures that our state, you know, organizations have in place. So whether it's your school nutritional program or your njda, in my instance, or Department of ag, you know, we have to make sure that the information that they're passing down and they're sharing with, again, school districts, the vendors, all the stakeholders, is accurate, is timely, is updated, and it's a reliable source of information. You know, one of the things that the Kennedy Harvard Center Research group provided us with was, you know, they scoured each state's website or, you know, a select set of state websites to, to understand and gather the information of what these sites were pushing out. And, you know, O2 common, it was not updated, it was not ADA compliant. It was, you know, it missed all these pieces that, you know, we take for granted. And we just hope, we hope that it's correct information. You know, we, as the individuals implementing the procurement, we have to be the ones asking those questions. We have to be the ones who are raising the red flags to, to the, to. To the community saying, hey, we got to be better than this, right? We have to step up and we have to address these blatant issues. And again, communication is key.

[John Brucato]

Well said. So tell me a little bit about the electronic bidding system and epocurement. How has that really, those. How have those changes helped kind of move this forward and improve efficiency in the entire procurement process?

[Sasha Pouliot]

For me, the platform that's being developed and that's being worked on I think will go a long way to legitimizing and standardizing the language that a lot of these vendors are looking for. There's still some hurdles that you could foresee, such as the matrix that'd be utilized to, to determine who's a qualified bidder. You know, these are things that, you know, us as business officials have the ability to, you know, make, you know, individualized to our district and unique. And, you know, that may not always be in the best interest of those bidding on those RFPs. So I can understand why they would have an issue and I can understand why they want it to be a little more uniform just so that they could get their ducks in a row. But as far as, as far as a good starting point and, you know, laying down the groundwork, I think it's a, it's a, is a great effective tool to, to strive towards.

[Darren Crawford]

You know, it's not there yet, but I think it is a good starting point. What we are working on I, you know, and I think has the potential to really help people.

[John Brucato]

And then in terms of just really streamlining the RFP process in general, what kind of advice can you give to our listeners who may be having those similar struggles that we talked about? What can they do to just kind of help make this RFP process just a little bit more easy for both parties?

[Darren Crawford]

I don't know. I think one thing is really to make sure that someone in the procurement stack staff has a thorough understanding of what child nutrition procurement is and the differences that it has. Because I think, you know, that is something I have seen time and time again where, you know, I've been in training sessions where, you know, people are training on this and it's like, wait, you don't, you don't grasp it because it does change. Like, it's complex and it is ever changing and shifting. So if you're somebody who taught a class, you know, three years ago and now you're teaching, it's. None of the rules have changed since then. So I think it's important to have your staff, you know, someone on your staff be up to date on that. Yeah.

[John Brucato]

And I think to your point, too, it's very different than other RFP and procurement processes. Right. This isn't going out and finding an electrical contractor that's, I would argue, much more straightforward than doing, you know, something as complex as finding a vendor for food services. There's a lot of regulations that are there and a lot of nuances that need to be addressed. So I like that a lot. Just really staying current and making sure that you're on top of these ever evolving regulatory changes and expectations from whether it be federal, state, and even your local boards as well. So as we wind down here, can you share any lessons you've learned from your time in food procurement that other districts really should be aware of. Like, when you. When you first kind of got into this, what are those stumbling blocks that somebody or you wish somebody would have told you? Kind of setting out.

[Sasha Pouliot]

Yeah. I mean, expect the unexpected. You know, we're always faced with the possibility of food disruptions. Covid was the perfect example of that situation. Right. So, you know, always be ready to shift and always be ready to have those difficult conversations with your procurement team or with your food specialists. And before thinking about that, you know, whether. Whether it be, you know, you see something coming down the pipe in terms of legislatively or, you know, it's better to have asked those questions early than to. To ask them after the fact.

[Darren Crawford]

Yeah, I think me, like, lessons learned is I, you know, in procurement, we talk a lot about contract management and, like, actually managing that contract and, you know, not just the word contract management, but actually following through and making sure that our vendors are doing what we need them to do for us. Us, you know, for our end users. I think what I've learned, you know, through this process is also reach out to your vendors and make sure, you know, because they don't have somebody maybe who is managing that contract and whose job it is to say, hey, Darren, you're not being a good customer. Like, reach out, seek out those conversations and find ways to actually partner with them. Because, you know, to Sasha's point, too, like, when Covid happened, right. Like, and, you know, we shut down and then immediately reopened just in a different way. You know, here in Houston, we have hurricanes. You know, like, it seems every state has their disaster. Right. That is their thing. Like, and then you need your vendors and you need them to be partners, and you need them to be flexible. But I would say, you know, during COVID the people who I had the most conversations with before COVID Yeah. They're the ones who came through and helped me. And so I think that's. Be proactive and willing to hear maybe negative things about yourself.

[John Brucato]

Yeah, I was going to say it sounds like a little vulnerability. And humility is important, too, because, you know, we're not. We may be the biggest game in town, depending on where you are, but it doesn't mean we're the best customer either. So being able to hear that tough feedback, I think is really important. So if you could change one thing about how school food procurement operates today, what would that thing be?

[Sasha Pouliot]

For me, it would be modernizing the procurement process. Right. And I think we're going down that road now.

[John Brucato]

Yeah.

[Sasha Pouliot]

So, you know, just from a, from a, you know, a small district, looking at this big picture of, you know, the continental United States and how I can make it, you know, the world is your oyster kind of situation, I think, you know, let's, let's connect somebody in New Jersey with someone in Oregon or, you know, let, let's make that connection if, if it's right and it makes sense and, you know, broaden the reach of, of our procurement capabilities.

[Darren Crawford]

I mean, I think that the biggest thing I would change is making it easier to have local, slash regional, you know, however you, you want to look at local. But being able to make those procurement purchases like that is, I, I think that's the biggest thing. And it's, it's weird because I do also believe the same thing. Right. Like, if something works to have, you know, a partnership on opposite sides of the country, then absolutely, we have the technology and the logistics in place to do that. But I think also, you know, understanding that there is like the, like, ed, it's a good thing for those local producers when they can serve their community. So making it easier to do that, I guess.

[John Brucato]

Absolutely. Well, thank you both for your time today and all of your work on the food advisory procurement work group, and looking forward to hearing more of how this process is evolving and just making the barriers to entry a little bit easier for our vendors and us becoming better customers. So, Sajda, Darren, thank you so much.

[Darren Crawford]

Thank you.

[John Brucato]

Thank you for tuning in to School Business Insider. Make sure to check back each week for your favorite topics on school business.