Daniel Lubetzky | From a $24,000 Salary to Building a $5 Billion Company, The Billionaire Behind KIND

Summary

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Podcast Summary

School of Hard Knocks Podcast

Episode: Daniel Lubetzky | From a $24,000 Salary to Building a $5 Billion Company, The Billionaire Behind KIND
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: James, Jack, and Josh (The School of Hard Knocks)
Guest: Daniel Lubetzky, Founder of KIND Snacks

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Episode Overview

This episode features Daniel Lubetzky, founder of KIND Snacks, as he shares his journey from earning a $24,000 salary post-law school to creating a $5 billion company. Lubetzky delves into the founding values instilled by his Holocaust survivor father, the critical lessons learned from early entrepreneurial failures, the importance of humility and integrity, the “never satisfied” mindset, and practical advice for entrepreneurs on building durable brands, leading teams, and managing investment.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Daniel’s Unlikely Founder Story

• Unexpected Path: Daniel initially aimed to be a diplomat, not an entrepreneur. He only entered Stanford Law because his father wanted him to pursue education over joining the family business.
  • “If you had told me when I was in college or law school that I was going to be running a food company, I would have told you you're crazy.” (02:51)
• Early Hustle: Sold trinkets at flea markets, moved on to mall kiosks, and wanted to partner with his father before law school intervened.
• Key Influence: His father, a Holocaust survivor with only a third-grade education, modeled self-education, curiosity, and kindness.

Founding Principles and Core Values

• Leading by Example: Daniel attributes his leadership and company culture to actions modeled by his father—treating everyone with kindness, humility, and curiosity.
  • “In business, when you are a leader and you're a CEO, how you act is gonna set the culture for your entire team.” (06:04)
• Self-Education: Daniel’s father taught himself nine languages and read encyclopedias cover-to-cover, instilling a lifelong hunger to grow and learn.
• Modeling Action: Daniel emphasizes that a leader’s behavior, not just words, shapes company culture.

From Failure to Breakout Success

• The ‘Lost Years’ Are Crucial: Daniel spent ten years “hustling and failing” with his first startup, Peaceworks. He sees this period as pivotal due to the lessons and humility gained.
  • “Those moments are extraordinarily important. Those failures—as important as the successes.” (08:37)
• Bootstrapping the Business: KIND grew organically, raising only $5.2 million (much of which wasn’t even needed) to reach a multi-billion dollar valuation.
  • “We almost never used that. It was in the bank. The company kept growing and growing, and we learned how to finance our growth through AR and AP.” (11:03)

Differentiation and Growth Strategies

• Three P’s—Product, Packaging, People:
  • Product: Must be great—no compromise.
  • Packaging: KIND’s see-through wrappers contrasted with industry norms, signaling transparency.
    • “Our packaging introduced transparency…very straight lines. When people saw the product, they got it immediately.” (13:28)
  • People: Empowered staff and culture of ownership was the secret sauce.
• Guerrilla Marketing: Daniel personally pitched store owners, offered quirky guarantees (“free car wash guarantee”), and rearranged shelves on store visits.
  • “When buyers weren’t calling me back, I started offering a free car wash guarantee...” (17:12)
• Never Satisfied, Always Asking ‘What Else?’: The team was trained to always seek the next opportunity for growth or improvement.
  • “Never be satisfied. Learn how to think about what else is possible. Be in the world of possibilities, not the world of realities.” (23:23)

Staying Humble Amid Success

• Flying Commercial, Not Private: Daniel continues to hand out KIND bars to strangers on flights, despite his financial success.
  • “I really am terrified of becoming that guy that becomes above it. And once you have that, then who are you?” (19:01)
• Avoiding Lifestyle Creep: Advises young entrepreneurs to avoid distractions of possessions and reinvest profits in growth.
  • “The more possessions you have...Warren Buffett said, you don't own your possessions, your possessions own you.” (21:42)

Building Team and Brand Resilience

• Consistent Branding: Staying true to the core brand promise and not chasing fads—even as others push for frequent innovation and line extensions.
  • “A brand is a promise, and a great brand is a promise well kept...” (27:26)
• Culture of “What Else?”: Empowering employees at all levels to question, push boundaries, and seek multiple locations or placements for product.
• Healthy Discord: Encourages honest debate while maintaining mutual trust and integrity among co-founders and team members.
  • “One of the most important things is...teach your team members, yourself, to not just throw in, you know, do what's necessary. What else can you do?” (23:23)

Grit, Fit, and Wit—How Daniel Invests

• Evaluating Entrepreneurs: On Shark Tank and beyond, he looks for:
  • Grit: Resilience and work ethic to persevere through adversity.
  • Fit: Product-market fit; actually solving a real need.
  • Wit: Resourcefulness and creative problem-solving.
  • “You need all those three…” (44:21)

Managing Crises as Catalyst

• FDA Crisis: In 2014, KIND faced an existential threat when the FDA warned that KIND bars couldn’t be labeled “healthy” (due to nut fat content).
  • Daniel led a public science-based campaign, resulting in FDA policy change and industry recognition.
  • “We filed a citizen’s petition...eventually, the FDA reversed itself and apologized...” (49:42–53:52)

Advice for Entrepreneurial Media Brands and Influencers

• For Creators Entering CPG: The product must stand on its own, not rely on an influencer’s fame or initial novelty. Betraying consumer trust—even once—can sink the whole brand.
  • “Whenever you do something, you need to be building goodwill. The product has to stand on its own merit.” (55:43)

When to Take on Investment

• Good Money vs. Bad Money: Only take capital from investors with integrity who can provide real value—and only once the business model is proven and there’s a clear path to scaling.
  • “Who you choose to bring money from matters a ton...ideally, you want people with high integrity who know what they're doing and who have the time to give you some guidance.” (62:12)
• Bootstrap for as Long as Possible: Only take outside money when necessary to scale a proven business.

Building Unity and Lasting Legacy

• Building Bridges: The ultimate entrepreneurial challenge—and legacy—is to bring people together, whether across company lines or social boundaries.
  • “I think it's really important to build bridges...replacing us vs. them with building together.” (66:16)
• Being Remembered: Daniel’s goal is to make people feel valued and be remembered for kindness and building opportunities.
  • “Maya Angelou said...people are not going to remember what you said to them or what you did, but how you made them feel. I'd love to be like my father...” (67:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Failure
  • “Those failures—as important as the successes.” — Daniel Lubetzky (08:37)
• On Brand Consistency
  • “A brand is a promise, and a great brand is a promise well kept.” — Daniel Lubetzky (27:26)
• On Product Integrity in Influencer CPG Brands
  • “If you disappoint your consumer, you’re going to hurt your franchise—not just the product, but also your entire brand.” — Daniel Lubetzky (55:43)
• On Bootstrapping & Growth
  • “We got to like, over five to seven billion dollars valuation with almost no investment because it was just growing on its own.” — Daniel Lubetzky (02:26, 10:56)
• On Staying Humble
  • “I’m terrified of becoming that guy that becomes above it. If you have that, then who are you?” — Daniel Lubetzky (19:01)
• On Team and Culture
  • “Never be satisfied. Learn how to think about what else is possible. Be in the world of possibilities, not the world of realities.” — Daniel Lubetzky (23:23)
• On Building Bridges
  • “I think it’s really important to build bridges...this is the builders movement—helping people replace all these us vs. them, tearing each other apart by building together...” — Daniel Lubetzky (66:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Daniel’s background and early influences – [00:10–08:21]
• Lessons from failure and the Peaceworks years – [08:37–11:48]
• Guerrilla marketing and early KIND growth – [12:29–19:01]
• Staying grounded, humility, and personal anecdotes – [19:52–23:23]
• Building a culture of overachievement (“What else?” mindset) – [23:23–26:01]
• Consistent branding and product promise – [27:26–31:45]
• Advice for media entrepreneurs building CPG brands – [55:04–61:22]
• When and how to take on investors – [62:12–65:57]
• Final lessons & legacy (“building bridges” message) – [66:16–67:50]

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Failure and setbacks are not just part of the journey; they’re often the most valuable source of insight and growth.
• Bootstrapping develops essential financial discipline, and great products often trump aggressive marketing or huge raises.
• Staying humble and true to one’s values is vital—avoid letting external success or possessions erode personal or company integrity.
• Lasting brands are built through clarity, consistency, and never betraying consumer trust.
• Teams should be empowered to challenge and improve—never settle for “good enough.”
• Investors should be chosen with care—integrity and value add matter more than money alone.
• The highest calling of entrepreneurship is unifying people and building something positive and inclusive.

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For aspiring entrepreneurs and builders, this episode is a masterclass in resilience, humility, and thoughtful growth—delivered with humor and candor by one of the food industry’s most admired founders.

Transcript

[James]

Daniel Lubecki, the billionaire founder of the Kind Bar. At what point in your career did you realize that you were going to create one of the biggest food and beverage snack companies in the entire world?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I was already running businesses from ages 8 through college, but when I went to law school, I thought I was actually going to become a diplomat, and I thought that I was going to use my legal career to bring people together.

[Jack]

When and how did you get the idea for the Kind Bar brand?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

After law school, I had 10, you could call it last years, but actually, there were some of the most important years. Was making so many mistakes with my first company, pieceworks. Sometimes when everything is going well, you don't know what you're doing wrong. Whenever you find a setback, embrace it and analyze it. My salary after Stanford law school was $24,000. We got to like, over five to seven billion dollars valuation with almost no investment because it was just growing, growing, growing on its own.

[James]

Your dad was actually a Holocaust survivor.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

One of the most important thing for your viewers, listeners, is.

[James]

What'S going on, everyone, and welcome back to the School of Hard Knocks podcast. I'm James. I'm here with Jack and Josh, and we have an incredible guest for you all today. Daniel Lubecki, the billionaire founder of these right here, the Kind Bar man.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

And I'm sorry, I don't have a name that starts with a J.

[James]

Hey, hey. Next one. We gotta get a fourth one on here. Daniel, thank you for being with us today.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I'm so energized. I really love what you guys are doing. I was telling you this, but I was saving it for when we start recording. I haven't told you this part. I think the work you're doing is having more impact on our nation and on our world than you realize. Because a lot of young people over the last 20, 30 years have not been taught about the importance of hard work, of perseverance, of all the values that you're bringing through your show and to understand why, as imperfect as it is, capitalism is better at helping society grow and build value for everybody. For everybody. And it's not perfect, but it's really, really essential. And I think you're doing an incredible job at inspiring people to follow in those footsteps. So great work.

[James]

Thank you, my friend. It means a lot. Where I wanted to get started is I wanted to go back to college. Stanford University, right? When you think of Stanford and when I think anybody hears the term Stanford and they think about the graduates that went on to do really well, it's they ended up going into the tech industry building a software company that they, you know, builded out, scaled out to and eventually sold for billions of dollars. You found snacks as your vehicle and was that, you know, ticket for you to build a multi billion dollar company? At what point in your career did you realize that you were going to create one of the biggest food and beverage snack companies in the entire world?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

If you had told me when I was in college or law school that I was going to be running a food company, I would have told you you're crazy. Didn't cross my mind. It was not in my bingo card. I didn't go to Stanford undergrad, I went to Stanford Law. I went to Trinity University in San Antonio, Texas by chance. I didn't know what I was doing. My parents didn't have a college education. My dad only had a third grade education. My mom barely finished high school and they didn't understand what college was. I didn't understand what college was. I can tell you the whole story, but I barely got in. And then I all of a sudden started getting very intellectually curious and I loved. I was already running businesses as a from ages 8 through and through college. But when I went to law school I thought I was actually going to become a diplomat. And I thought that I was going to use my legal career to bring people together and to try to prevent what happened to my father from happening again to others by building bridges between people and using business as a force for building economic joint ventures among neighbors to work together and coexist. And very quickly I realized that instead of doing that through the public sector as a diplomat, I'd be better served by building an actual business. But I was a confused Mexican Jewish lawyer building ventures between Palestinians, Israelis, Jordanians, Egyptians and Turks with a brand called Moshe Pupik and Ali Mishmumkin's World Famous Gourmet Foods. I still don't know why it didn't work out, but I mean it was not at all in the. I did like business a lot. But for some reason it's an interesting question I've never asked myself. Why did I not Actually I wanted to do business and I actually wanted to join my dad. I wanted to be partners with him. And when I was in college in high school, I started selling in San Antonio. I don't know if you guys are familiar with the Eisenhower Flea market and the all these flea markets. I used to go to these back stretches of the San Antonio, Texas and go at 6am Set up my booth and sell different trinkets. And then from that I graduated into kiosks in shopping mall selling watches. And I wanted to scale that with my dad. And my dad, who had never had the fortune of a education, he wanted me to go on to continue my studies. And I got into Stanford Law and I seriously wanted to not do that and start a business with my dad. I said, no, go and go and pursue your career. And so I ended up doing that.

[James]

I wanted to ask, you know, for the people that may not be super familiar with your story, your dad was actually a Holocaust survivor. When you were growing up, what were some of those core principles that he instilled in you that really shaped the man that you are today, that you carry with you every single day, and that are at the front and center of every company that you built? What did your dad instill in you?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I think the most important thing is how he instilled it, because it was not by. We had a lot of conversations, and I did grow a lot from those, but I think it was more by example, right? When you have kids, you guys are too young to have kids, but when you have kids, they're gonna do what you do, not what you say. And similarly, in business, when you are a leader and you're a CEO, how you act is gonna set the culture for your entire team. It's really, really important that whatever the values that are important that you model them in action. Cause if transparency is important and you're transparent, your team will be transparent. If you openly communicate everything and say it like it is, then team members are gonna start doing that. So I think my dad more than anything treated everybody as an equal. He was just kind to every person and, and I think that was what. What stayed with me a lot. And also, he was self made, right? Like, he was always curious, he was always growing. He only had a third grade education. He was liberated by people like your parents who served the military. And prior to starting, I found out that both your dad and your dad served together our nation. And I'm very grateful because I wouldn't be here if it wasn't because of people that risk their lives every day to keep us safe. But when I was a kid, what was striking to me was seeing how my dad grew on his own because he only had a third grade education, and yet he spoke nine languages and had read thousands of books. And people knock on the door and come in asking for his advice, and I was like, why are they asking his advice? And people from the community would always want his Advice. It was very, very educated, but self made. And whenever he had breaks, he would just open up a book and start reading like he had a. Back then, you guys probably don't know. Are you familiar with what an encyclopedia is or.

[Jack]

Oh yes.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Oh yeah, like a written book. He would have all these volumes and he would open it up and, and read, you know, all of the letter A and then the letter B and then the letter C. And that's how he educated himself.

[Jack]

Absolutely. One thing that I heard that you mention is that your dad taught you to be kind to other people. And so I, I want you to take me back. You know, you were in law school when, when and how did you get the idea for the Kind bar brand?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

After law school I had 10, you could call it last years. But actually there were some of the most important years was making so many mistakes with my first company, Pieceworks Kind didn't come till 10 years after. And this is one of the most important thing for your viewers, listeners is those moments are extraordinarily important. Those failures as, as important as the successes. It's not that you want failures, but if you harness them and you listen to them and you are learning from those mistakes. Like one of the things that worries me about you is that you guys are on a juggernaut journey. You're killing, killing, killing, killing it. Sometimes when everything is going well, you don't know what you're doing wrong. And so it's interesting, whenever you find a setback, embrace it and analyze it. It's not like, yeah, we have a setback, we suck. No, it's like what can we do better from the just analyze and study it. So those 10 years at Peaceworks, I kept learning to so much back then I didn't realize it and I wasn't happy about it. I was barely making ends meet and hand to mouth or like I could barely pay my team members salaries. My salary after Stanford law school was $24,000 for like 10 years. I had a very, very, very modest salary. But I was learning from those mistakes. Two steps forward, two steps back. What did we do wrong? So 10 years into it, 10 years into P, we had the idea for what became kind and fortunately we harnessed all of those lessons and then once KIND launched it just like a juggernaut, it just grew, grew, grew, grew, grew. And it was unstoppable for like 10 years in a row. We were doubling revenues, triple digit growth every single year, cash flow positively and profitably. So we got to like over a 5 to $7 billion valuation with almost no investment because it would just growing, growing, growing on its own. What do you think is the total that we raised in kind in our lifetime to get to billions in revenues?

[James]

100 million.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

That would be a common assumption. 100 million to get to a billion. If companies achieve that, they're lucky. What do you think?

[Josh]

I have a feeling you bootstrapped it.

[James]

Huh?

[Josh]

I have a feeling you bootstrapped it.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Bootstrapped it. But to get to a billion, what would you need?

[Josh]

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go 25. I'm gonna go 25 million.

[Jack]

Would you say 10 million?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

10 million. 5.2 million. Wow. And we almost never used that. It was in the bank. And the company kept growing and growing and growing. And we will learn how to finance our growth through AR and ap. Like, to make sure that our suppliers gave us good payment terms and that we got paid on time. And we were chasing those. Why? Because during the Pieceworks years, I had no other option but to get paid because otherwise I would go out of business. So I was collecting the money myself, and I was also delivering the product, taking the orders, doing everything. But it taught me to really, really make sure that the system's working, that we don't leave any dollars lying around. And that's why Kind was able to grow so much.

[Jack]

It was almost like those lessons during the piecework years of, like, always trying, like, always being strapped for cash, that when you actually had all the funds, you were like, hey, one of the biggest lessons as a CEO that you gotta know is you can't run out of money 100%.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

And I saw an interview with you where you talked about how you were now as an entrepreneur, not only are you interviewing interviewers, but now on your own, right? You're doing a really nice thing here. You're growing something really, really special. And I saw how you were also approaching that with your culture. And you need to do that, right? You don't wanna get so comfortable that you start buying all these Lamborghinis before know it. You don't have the ability to grow. Invest in your growth. Invest in your growth.

[James]

So I. I wanted to ask you then, you know, because we interviewed a couple months ago, Don Bio, who's the founder of Arizona Iced Tea. And again, another example where he is, like, he hates taking on debt. And, you know, I asked him what was, like, the biggest lever that you kind of pulled, and he said it was the packaging of, like, the Arizona Iced Tea cans. What was that lever for? You that led to the kind bars flying off the shelves, right. Because you didn't have, like you said, you raised $5 million, but that's not, you know, the amount of money to nationally kind of advertise.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

$5 million came much later.

[Jack]

Right.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

We only had $100,000 when we started client. The. The 5 million was what we already were, a $50 million company. And then we didn't even need it. We never needed that money. We grew organically. But it's a great question. Can I cheat and give you two answers instead of one?

[James]

Absolutely.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I would say. Can it be three?

[Josh]

Absolutely.

[James]

Four.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I think the product, the packaging and the people who PPP the three piece. I like the 3P. The product in. In consumer. You know how they say in finance, cash is king in products, or in consumer products, good product is king. If your product is good, you have a chance that you can. You need to execute other things, but the product has to be good. So it was and it still is an amazing product. Right? You try it, you can tell it's different. You can tell the quality. So the product definitely was important, the packaging, because we introduced transparency into our wrappers and we introduced very straight lines back then almost, and even today, pretty much all other competitors, they used opaque packaging and they used a lot of allegory to create a lot of marketing buzz that was not true to life, right? Like coming up with names like Cookie Cutter and Abode and Visa labui. And we were just like, for a marketer, it's hard to be disciplined and say we're boring. This is caramel nuts and sea salt. This is like. We're very descriptive on purpose because we wanted to challenge the prevailing conventional wisdom. When people are zigging, you want to zag. In our space, everybody was like, ooh, vanilla cookie chupa lupi. No, we needed to do the chupalapa. We needed it differently. I'm going to crack a smile from you and make you laugh before you know it. But. But we were trying to be very, very straightforward. Our lines, our packaging was very straight. Everything was designed to be very. And then when you looked at the product, it was real. The transparent window. When people saw the product, they got it immediately. And then the third and perhaps most important is the people, the culture that you create, because everybody was an owner, everybody was in it for the same reason. Everybody put kind ahead of themselves. And that culture that we created was what made us. It's invincible.

[Josh]

One of the things that I loved, and I think that there's a huge misconception is that your first business is going to be a success. But oftentimes, I mean, not only for ourselves, we had to pivot many times along the way. But even the people that we interview, their first venture wasn't always their most successful venture. I'm kind of curious for you. When you're, you're scrappy, you're just getting it off the ground. What's the most unorthodox way that you use to promote and grow Kind bars?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Juice. I first want to go in with your first point because it's such a deep, deep point. And I would say my guess, I haven't looked at it data, but it's probably 90% plus of people that have to pivot and the first thing is not as successful and the second one is more. Not only that, but that's what makes them more successful. Because the humbling failures of those first things and needing to pivot keeps you honest and makes you more grounded and less arrogant. And in some cases, the rare case where you have immediate success can also be your own doing because then you don't have something to ground. You think you're invincible and then you get your ass kicked. Are we allowed to say ass kicked? How about say you mother.

[Josh]

You say anything you want.

[Jack]

It's the school of hard knocks. Gotta keep it real.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

So in. Interestingly, not that you want to fail, but that need to pivot ends up strengthening you and developing, giving you the grit, the humility, the not. Not thinking that you're perfect. Because if you have a success too quickly, I've seen it happen too much. That is what ultimately leads to the company imploding because they got too arrogant. But now ask me the question, what were some of the techniques that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Josh]

What was the most unorthodox way you used to get kind bar off the ground?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Well, every single thing we did was guerrilla type stuff, right? Like we, we didn't. That's how I learned it in pieceworks. And that's how we did everything. Every single thing was, it was almost like there was not alternate, there wasn't an alternative, not an alternative way to think, not an alternative culture. So we would immediately. Well, I'll start with some basics. But initially when people were not returning my call, I started living. Back then there was voicemails. I don't know if you know what, you're familiar with leaving a line, but I would. When the guys were not calling me back, I started offering a free car wash guarantee as like try my products if you're not happy. Right. Leading A voicemail on the buyers box and say, if you tried my products and they don't walk, I will wash your car that weekend. So just they would like laugh and then they would call me back. But everything we did, handing out the product, letting people try the product, giving people a free bite.

[Jack]

Did you end up watching cars for anybody?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

No, because the guy I'm thinking about this was Stu Lenders. Was the first time that I applied that and I kept calling him and calling him and calling him and he didn't call me back. And I finally left him that voicemail and he called me back and he was cracking up and they probably did well. So I never had to watch.

[Josh]

One of the things I feel like I've learned about you though is that same hunger has just never left you. Because I heard a story and I want you to confirm that this is true. You're worth billions of dollars today. And when you go on a commercial flight, you hand out kind bars to all the strangers on the plane.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Not too old because a plane can have 180 people. And I can only fit into those boxes 72 to 100 boxes, 100 bars. But I try to fly commercial as much as possible because I don't want to lose myself when I have to fly private. But I try to do commercial as much as possible. And I fill up that bag with kind bags, hundred, a hundred and so and then I hand them out and I don't even own the company anymore. I sold it. So it's not. Back then, it used to be that I wanted to surprise people with an act of kindness, but I also have a goal of letting people try my products. Now it's just fun to. And it's important to keep me grounded. I really am terrified of becoming that guy that becomes above it. And once you have that, then who are you?

[James]

So you said something right there, that the reason why you still fly commercial is to stay grounded and stay humble. Have you seen that happen a lot with people that achieve a immense amount of financial success and they become a different person because they allow the money to kind of change them and the person that they are. I want you to, if you can touch on that and if you have.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

A ton of friends that I love a lot that live very lavishly and we have those conversations and they tell me, daniel, you're a loser. What is this money for? Like, they tease me that I'm the poorest rich man they know. A lot of people tease me about that. But I, for me, and by the way, we live very well. We're very lucky. We're very blessed. We have a. Like, when I was running kind, I didn't have a car because I sold it. And I. It was not official. We can talk about having a car in New York City, but I didn't have a car. I didn't own any real estate when I got married, Michelle. And when we had kids, we were renting. And I didn't own anything till when I was 45 to 50, when we bought our first apartment. Prior to that, I was just working, working, working. And part of the problem with possessions is they make it harder for you to win, like, the more possessions you have. I think it was Warren Buffett that said, you don't own your possessions, your possessions own you. And it's very true. Like, I'm not insignificant. Spent part of my time now spend, like, managing my team and our property and this and that. And then you don't have time to start a new venture and to grow your new venture. So particularly when you're young and starting your venture, not having the distraction of possessions allows you to lean into building more.

[James]

I wanted you also to touch on. I know Josh had briefly asked about some of those guerrilla marketing tactics. You would also be with your wife sometimes, and if you saw, like, a corner store that may not have your product, you would go in there and give them or sell them, you know, why they need your product in there.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Well, I just did it naturally. But Michelle mentioned it, and I realized how much of a loser I was that we were on a date. And I saw that there was an opportunity, and I walked in and I rearranged the shelves. I asked the store manager, do you mind if I can, like, rearrange the shelves because the product's not maintained? And Michelle was probably like, what's going on? But in some way, I was very lucky that I did that, because not only did I get another couple dollars from that account, but more important, I found a partner that understood my love of entrepreneurship, and that was supportive and that was whimsical even about it. She'd laugh about it, and then sometimes I would ask her to help me do it. And once I had kids, when we were sampling products, I would make the kids sample the products. And it's part of building that culture.

[Jack]

There's a. You know, when James interviewed Sarah Blakely in Atlanta, she was talking about how she used to go. Her product would be in the back of, like, Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus. She would go to the back of the store. She'd grab Spanx and she'd go put it up at the front counter and started getting more sales. She's like, okay, well, why? Why? You know, the. The store was like, okay, what is this product that's selling? And they were just like, okay, keep it there. And like, some. And just like, how you would go and rearrange the selves. So many people probably don't take, like, young entrepreneurs today. They don't take the necessary steps to just go out and do the simple things. To hustle. They overlook. Do you think that that's, like, missing from today's entrepreneurial culture?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It's an awesome question. First of all, Sarah and her husband Jesse are among my favorite people in the world. They are amazing, and they are real, true entrepreneurs and also good people. I think what I learned through pieceworks and then I started trying to teach my team members a kind at and all the companies that we invest through Camino and is never be satisfied. Like, learn how to think about what else is possible. Be in the world of possibilities, not in the world of realities. So we would literally train our team members to think that way. Okay, what's your first objective? My first objective is to get the product into the stores. Is your job done? No. What else can you do? Instead of one item, I can get three items. What else can you do? Instead of three items, I can get eight items in. What else? 12 items. Okay, now you got your 12 items. What else can you do? You do. Oh, well, now I can get. Instead of being at the bottom, at eye level. Okay, great. What else can you do? What do you mean? I already got the product, and I already got it at eye level. What else? You want Secondary placement? Okay, I can. I want to get it in another location. So I want to sell it in the healthy snack set and the nutrition bar set, in the health and wellness set, in the energy set. Like, you have to think creatively. Oh, what else can I do? Put it in the checkout counters. What else can I do? Daniel, come on. I get. No. What else can I do? Okay. You went into a situation of kind where we have called the great wall of kind. I'm not making this up. Sandy Cabins. The most unassuming woman you ever met. She's. Her height was about 5ft at most. And nobody should have underestimated Sandy cabins. 800 cases of kind created a wall 30, 40ft, like, going up to 12ft high across all of her stores. And then what else? Replicated it and replicated. And then on the salad counters and Then promoted this way and then promoted that way and just there is never enough. You never can be satisfied. You need to teach your team members yourself, team members to not just throw in, you know, do what's necessary. What else can you do? How can you outperform? How can you perform? What else can you do? Do a partnership with another brand, Do a promotion. Sample. Sample yourself. Like I was sampling the product myself in the stores and having fun and making people laugh and. And to your point, you need to teach that mindset to your team and to yourself. You need to teach yourself how can you be more creative? What else? Where can you turn that rock and find something else?

[James]

Daniel, what year did you start Kind?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Kind was launched 2003 and well conceived. 2003. Launched 2004.

[James]

So over 20 years ago.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah.

[James]

When I first interviewed you, or I guess the second time I had interviewed you, when we were at the Marriott and, and down here in Austin, one of my favorite takeaways from that interview was you talked about how important it is to be consistent. And I know that the three of us can agree if there's one thing that we've done well over the last four plus years.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

You know what you are, we're so very clear with you guys.

[James]

So consistent though. Yeah, I've probably was on 100 to 150 flights last year, every week traveling to the next city, the next city. And it's like you have to stay consistent. And you just talked about never really getting comfortable. What else can I do? How can I, how can I do better? How can I innovate and whatnot. And so I love that you talked about that consistency, but in particular with branding. And you also mentioned that in our interview. Right. When you take a look at like what happened to Cracker Barrel recently when they tried to drastically change the branding, there was an uproar. People were like, this is not the Cracker Barrel that I know. Like, what are you doing? Like, you gotta know your audience and you gotta know your customers. Even over 20 plus years, you haven't necessarily drastically changed the branding of Kind Bar. Why was that and how important was just that consistent messaging, branding colors that you've had ever since you started the company.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

100%. One of the things I remember sharing with you is that a brand is a promise and a great brand is a promise well kept. What does that mean? That a brand is a shortcut, a mnemonic device to know what you're gonna get. So kind, it has to be healthy, has to be tasty, it has to be a company that means, well, transparent or whatever the things are, you know, you're gonna get that from Kind. If Kind tries to be everything to everybody. And oh, today the trend is to make a high protein bar and tomorrow it's a low cal bar and the next day we're going to do away with that and we're going to go for chocolate. And the next one we're going to do indulgent. The next one is going to go organic and the next one is going to do this. And you're chasing fads. The consumer no longer knows what the brand stands for. And so then it loses its value. You have to be very, very consistent with what you stand for. One of the great examples that I can share from my industry was Balance Bar. I don't recall if I share that with you, but I can give you hundreds of them. It's very interesting how in my industry this stuff happens. Balance Bar had a very, very clear value proposition. It was a $250 million company when we were born. When Kind was born, it was like one of two or three key brands. And Balance Bar had a proposition that I think had like one third, one third, one third. I think it was protein, fiber and this or whatever it was, right? Like it had it's, it's very clear architecture of what the functional bar it was. And then I noticed they got acquired and then they started saying, oh, they sold the company. And the new acquisition company said, well, organic's really hot. Let's create Balance Organic. But nobody believed them because the brand was a very functional brand. So now they were doing organic, it's like, oh, no, now we need to do engulgence, called this one. They had balanced gold, they got balanced protein, balance this. And all of a sudden the original essence of what the brand said, which was about balance, didn't exist. They had like seven something. That brand ended up then being sold at a huge loss. I think whoever bought it for close to a billion, then sold it for like 50 million, then bought it to another company. And one of the things that happens is they put in a junior marketer and the marketer just wants to put their seal on that brand. And then they start changing it and doing this new thing and new thing and not honoring what the brand's supposed to stand for. I don't even think that brand exists anymore. I think it died completely. If it exists, I haven't seen it in years. But by the way, the amount of times that happens is more frequent than you realize. And when you Guys are building your brand. I am sure everybody and their grandmother's telling you what you should do, and they say, well, why don't you go here and why don't you do that? And oh, my God, if only you should change your model and add this and add that, you're gonna get more views. But the danger is if you end up not remembering what you stand for, then people are not gonna know what to go to James for. Right. Like to go to your team for. So you need to remember who you are, what you, yes, innovate, expand, but very strategically, always honoring what is the essence of your brand. What. What should the person that loves coming to you expect to get and always deliver that.

[James]

There's so much value in what you're saying right now. And I think this is one of the best lessons for any young entrepreneur. We talk about this all the time. When we were starting to build our company, you know, and get traction in particular, you know, one thing that we always knew was how to go viral. We knew how to get millions of views. That was our strength, our skill set. But then to be able to bridge from being great at content to being great at business is a. Is too comple. Different things. And that's why most people that do content or in media, they.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It's.

[James]

They're not very good at turning that into a business, monetizing the right way. And we always say that back when, you know, two years in 2023, when we had started to build a pretty large audience. If you talk to 10 different Internet marketers or Internet, you know, tech media entrepreneurs, they would each tell you 10 different things on what you should do. And so I just wanted to touch on that. It's like you have to be very careful on who you take advice from and listen to. And. And like you said, keep the main thing. The main thing that was always extremely important for us as we were building and growing, because if you try and listen to somebody tell you, oh, you got to try this now add this or stop talking to these people, go do this one. It's like you can completely mess everything up. If you decide to take that advice, that's a valuable lesson right there.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Then I'm going to ask you a two part question. Number one is, how the hell have you achieved what you've achieved? Because there's only one school of hard knocks. There's only like the. When you did our video, there were so many people that liked it. It was like insane. The performance. And we've looked at the ecosystem. You Guys are in a. What do you say? World of your own. Like you. You've accomplished something incredible. Number one, how did you achieve that? What is your secret sauce? And number two, how do you stay grounded? Because I've seen it so often, you guys are so young, and it's so much more dangerous for young people to succeed so quick because you didn't. I mean, yes, you had some things, but you're still very young to have achieved so much momentum. How do you remember, Remind yourself to stay grounded.

[James]

Yeah, I think to answer both of those, and you guys are welcome to add on, if you'd like, for the first one, about how we achieved it, because we're always constantly surrounded by incredible people like you and an immense amount of very successful entrepreneurs. You. There's certain things that we aspire to be like and certain things that we don't, but one of those things that we've learned is that when the big guy on top gets, you know, comfortable, somebody else is going to kind of come up and take their spot. And I've seen it now in our niche, in our space, there's now a thousand people trying to do what we do. And, you know, I hate to say it this way, but I mean it. It's like, I want to pour gas down everybody's throat.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

You need to keep handing out those kind words.

[James]

You have to.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[James]

But it's also like last year, the one principle that I've learned about success the most is when you have momentum, keep going. Because what happens is somebody, you know, may hit a million followers, and they're like, I hit a million followers. I made it. I'm gonna just coast. It's like, we have 20 million followers. And I tell them this now. I'm more motivated now than ever to grow than when we first started the channel.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I call that the law of oxygen. What do I mean by that? The market is a very efficient marketplace, and if you have something that's working and you're scaling it and you get complacent, there's still a vacuum to be filled. Somebody else is going to feel a vacuum. So it's either you are going to grow into that, or somebody else is going to eat your lunch. It's just that it's. How about humility?

[James]

Yeah. On the second thing is, there was a piece of advice that we received one time from a gentleman, successful Houston entrepreneur, and it was this quote that was, stay small enough, long enough, and you'll be big enough soon enough. And he was talking about how, or I guess to equate it to us is we've always had that mindset that there will be a time when we're able to, you know, pay ourselves immensely out of the business and whatnot. But, like, ever since we were making $30,000 a month in profit, we would each take out out two grand a month. The rest would go back into the business.

[Jack]

When you mentioned earlier, you're making 24 grand on a yearly salary, that's what we started out, the same thing. It's like we grew, you know, coming out of college, you know, our parents, very supportive. But initially you're like, man, like the people you went to school with, they're probably making like 60, 70k a year. Like, you know, you guys aren't doing that. I'm like. Because you have to put, like, you have to stay small and put everything back. And then I guarantee you, in like five years time, we're going to be looking at like, how much we're doing versus, like the same people that had that 60, 70k job. And it's just thinking like, you have to pour everything back and give the love to the business before you can think about yourself.

[James]

And, and now, right? So that was, I guess, three or four years ago. We were doing 30K a month across all of our businesses. Now we're doing well over a million dollars a month, over, you know, 6, $700,000 in profit. We still, you know, pay ourselves, like, you know, I mean, we, yeah, we.

[Jack]

Don'T pay ourselves anything very much at all. Like, very little.

[James]

Like, we.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Do you want investors?

[Jack]

Very, very.

[James]

Not. Not. Not.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Good answer. I'd come in with you guys because it'd be so fun to work with you, but you don't need it, right?

[Jack]

We kind of take that same approach. Is like, hey, maybe when we, you know, we have a big vision to turn this into, you know, that's. I think what also keeps us grounded is our vision to turn this into a massive media conglomerate and what we stand for. You know, we're not nowhere, we're nowhere near where we want to be. And I think kind of like we, we, we want to keep as much as possible, but you never know when you get to that, that point where you're like, man, could we go to the, the, the billion mark?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

How about the Human Dynamics? Because I, I always wish I had work with my dad. I, like, I miss him a lot. And it was, it just. I wish I had partnered with him. He wanted me to go on to do my own thing. You guys are brothers and you guys are friends from childhood.

[James]

Childhood, yeah.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Is it just. Do you have certain rules that you set or any to make sure that you guys don't fight and that you don't fight in a negative way while still having a hearty, respectful debate?

[Josh]

100%. So I think it's such a. It's. It's such a blessing. So I think a lot of people, like, the, the typical advice is like, don't get into business with family, don't get into business with friends. And. And for the most part, I actually would agree with that for most people. I just feel like we just got super blessed with the dynamic that we have. But I think that there's two key caveats that we have going for us is one, because we've known each other for so long and we just have that. That un. Un. Doubtable trust of just like, I know that when someone says they're going to do something, it's going to get done when I know, like, like I'm not having a check or like a look over my shoulder about, like, someone touching, like, the bank accounts or anything like that. Right. Like, it's undoubted trust and integrity. Trust and integrity at number one. And then number two is that, of course, like, they're brothers and yes, we're friends. I mean, I'd consider myself a. But, like, they are my brothers in a way, you know, but it's. There is no yes men. We've been doing this company for, I don't know, four and a half years now. And there's, of course, there's disagreements, of course, there's things that we don't always necessarily agree on, but that is healthy. And I'd say if we agreed upon everything, the school of hard knocks that it is today would not be what.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It is to that culture where you've created the permission to question everything. This is one of the most important things for your audience to understand is we're living in a world where there's so many threats against that. Right. Like, social media keeps feeding us what we want to hear rather than what we need to hear. That's why yours is different, because you're providing a very different voice. But most social media people are living in a bubble. It's very dangerous. And also the way people have been taught, they're being taught not to question things. They're being taught not to ruffle feathers. And it's very different from being respectful than from questioning things. You want to be curious, you want to question things. And so I like that you're creating a culture where you need to challenge each other. And are there any best practices within that to not piss each other off too much, but be comfortable leaning in to try to get each other to make each other stronger?

[Jack]

Well, absolutely. And I think we have an incredible team. Most people don't know this, but we have over 60 people involved in our entire organization. School hard Knocks, I'd say just we have an incredible team of people that we get to work with every day. And the one thing that I tell everybody that I work with is it's like, hey, you know, don't be afraid to share your ideas and don't be afraid. You know, just because one of the guys at leadership is saying something doesn't mean that they're always right. And so, like, by you just going along with it, even if you know it's wrong, one, that's not super high integrity. But also, that's not what I brought you here for. I brought you here for your expertise and because I believe you bring something to the table that the rest of the team doesn't have.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I love that. I want to add on what you said something that might be very useful to your viewers. I have a couple tools in that regard. Number one, the more you succeed, the more that some young people are gonna see you as like, oh, my God, I cannot challenge this person's statement because they are the boss, and it's very dangerous because then you might not benefit from them critiquing you to make you stronger. So I always say you have to assume that whatever I say needs to get done with a big asterisk. If I say, let's do X, always put an asterisk at the end. And the asterisk means as long as you think it makes sense. Because if I empower my team members to say, oh, go sell those kind bars. Chuchulungu balaganga. Why did I come up with that one? But anyway, they go, and Chuchulungu is a bad guy, or the store reeks, or there's a reason why they shouldn't have kind bars in. Okay, Use your own judgment. So it's always do X as long as it makes sense. You are empowered to. To use your own judgment, and you're the ones in the front lines, and you need to be able to do that. And number two, connect to what you said. Whenever you bring in a new person, whoever's a new person, you explain exactly what you said. You say, listen, every person's opinion counts, and there's a benefit to you being new because the new person can see things with a little bit more. We're all assuming that this is how we've done it. Always if you notice something that's not working or that could be done better, challenges and take advantage of the freshness of that new person joining to welcome them, challenging you, because that's gonna make us stronger.

[James]

In the beginning of the podcast, you know, you were talking about one of the things that you focused on, you know, with the Peace Corps company, and I know it's one of your focuses in today's world is unity. There's so much divide, you know, driven through media and just other organizations, whatever it may be. But you focused on bringing people from different backgrounds, different countries together. We see more often than not in a lot of even major companies, the downfall of them is the ego at the top of the organizations. Was unity something that you always strive for within the companies that you've led? And all the success that you've had, has that always been something that you've kind of put at the forefront to focus on compromise within the decision making process, bringing people together? I wanted to kind of get your thoughts on that.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Love that question. I think the way we handled it is that we just trained ourselves and our team to understand that we all are here in service of a greater mission. That's not that we're all gonna benefit more if we put kind ahead of ourselves. And it was all in the service of kind. So we all were trying to do the right thing for the right reason. So John Leahy, my president, knew that I had his back and he knew that I had his back and I knew that he had my back. Whatever backs, we all were there together. And similarly with every team member, there needed to be a bond of trust that we knew that we're doing it for kind sake. And it was not about egos. It was not a personalities, it was not about that. We're all putting kind first. Much easier said than done. Egos are a fascinating thing to study because every one of us has an ego. And I think you shared this in the the video that my friend Fred Schaffel taught me once that the only thing more powerful than greed is ego. But it can be positive or negative. One example is somebody might shoot themselves in the foot because their ego got so big that even if it's financial in their interest, they're not going to do this because it's not consistent with their ego. How do you make sure that everybody aligns incentives of both ego and financial Incentives so that we're all working in this together. That is the magic. Incentives really, really work. People really respond to incentives. But sometimes we're very narrow minded of how we think of incentives. Incentives are not only financial incentives. If we all work hard, the company will be worth more. Sometimes we do need to find a way to get credit because hey, I did all the work, he's getting the credit. So you need to find a way to honor the reality that all of us need some person so forth. Like if you have a jerk of a boss that's putting you down, putting you down, putting you down, no matter how much money you're making, it's not going to be satisfying. So honoring people, celebrating people, elevating people, giving them credit when it's due is all part of making that machine work well.

[Jack]

So one thing I wanted to ask you was your on Shark Tank and I would love to get how do you look at companies when you're thinking about investing in them? And how do you look at founders when you're thinking about investing them as well? Because I feel like a lot of investors when they look at a company, they're like, I sometimes invest in the founder versus even just the company. So what is your investment philosophy on Shark Tank and other companies that you invest in?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Yeah, it's fun to be on Shark Tank. I think it's both. I would say there's three things that I look for. I call it the IT factors. Fit, grit and wit. What does that mean? So the first it grit is the person, hard worker, are they gonna really lean in? And when things are tough, double down on their work ethic. Because it is in the life of an entrepreneur you're going to have ups and downs and you're going to be down sometimes. Is that person going to be resilient? Are they going to work hard, outwork the competition, lean in and not give up? So you have to have that grit, you have to have that character, you have to have that fit. Does the product meet a need? Like is your product or service responding to something that's necessary, better than your competitions? If you don't have that, if the product's not there, no matter how much grit the person has, no matter the integrity and all that, if the product is not the right product or service, it's not going to work out. So the product has to be there and then wit. Because grit and fit are not enough. You need to have the creativity to zig when they zag. Is that person going to be creative enough and entrepreneurial enough and resourceful enough so that if this door is not open, they. They go to this other door, or they go up and go up the stairs or scale this way or go around. Like you. You need to have the creativity, the resourcefulness, the curiosity to have that wit. Because when I was starting Kind, I had a lot of grit. I didn't have wit. So even before Kind Pieceworks, I'll give you one example. I was incredible at being like, and I'm not gonna give up. I would go up and down the streets, and if I was going down Broadway and I was 122nd, there's a store on 120, there's a store, 118th, one on 700, I would not move to the next block until I got into that store. That's a lot of grit. I'd stayed two hours, and I told myself that that was a genius thing because I had so much grit. I had all the grit, but no wit. I had no brain power to realize that I was focusing hours of my invaluable time trying to get into the wrong store. I needed some wit. To understand that not all stores are meant to carry my products, only the better stores. I had to have a migration strategy. Which stores to go in first, which stores to go in second. I needed to develop strategic mind, not just all that steadfast perseverance, but also an approach, a strategy for where am I gonna go first, then how you go second, then how you go third. So with this about strategies, about really, really knowing what pieces of the puzzle to move first, and then you need all those three.

[James]

You.

[Josh]

You talked a lot about grit and how you need grit as an entrepreneur. Because, you know, I feel like, especially nowadays, entrepreneurship for most people is, in a way, glorified as this grand thing. It's all sunshine and rainbows. But the reality is there's actually a lot more hardships, especially as a founder, than most people would realize. I'm kind of curious for you. When you were. When you were building Kind, what was the hardest moment that you had to go through as an entrepreneur? And how did you eventually overcome that?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

The hardest moment in my kind journey was in 2014, but it doesn't address your point, but I'm gonna go there because it's interesting too. But the hardest moments at Peace Rocks, that required grit was where I was barely surviving. I can tell you plenty of those stories. They're more at Peace Rocks. But if you ask me, what was your hardest moment at kind, it was 2014. The company's 10 years into it, growing, growing, growing, growing. We've gone from nothing to a multi billion dollar company. And I write a book called do the Kind Thing. And I have a media tour to talk about the book and kind and we're like in heaven, right? And all of a sudden we get a letter from the FDA telling us that and four of our products did not meet the definition of healthy. Did you guys ever hear this story or no?

[James]

I don't think so.

[Josh]

I hope not.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

So they tell us that four of our products, they don't fit the definition of healthy because their nuts have too much fat. And that doesn't meet the definition of healthy. So first of all, well, the press does hell, because the whole reason why I created Kind was to make something healthy, tasty and socially responsible. And now the FDA is telling us that we are not, that we don't have integrity. E was heartbreaking the next day from when they got that letter. You'd walk into the offices, you could feel like the pressure in the office, the silence. It was so hard. Everybody was so defeated. And we first complied with the fda. We said, all right, we're going to stop using the term healthy, even though we later found out their letter.

[James]

So I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off. When you have a product like this. Do they come to you to do the testing or how does that even come about? And I didn't want to cut you off on the story. How does the FDA even find out to test your product?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Most likely a competitor set them off to it because there's Cheetos and Schmetos and Mashmitos and they're going after Kind bars. So it didn't really make sense. And it really didn't make sense. And it didn't make sense because it gets very interesting. First of all, we use that as what's called, not as a nutrient content claim, but just like our philosophy is to make tasty, healthy and socially responsible products. And it was in the back of the wrapper, there was no reason why they should have come to us. It was somebody had some agenda. They send us a letter, but first we comply. Then we find out that they're not right because technically, on the technicality, this was not a nutrient content claim. But instead of fighting them on that, we start doing more research. And like, how is it that they're saying all the data now says that eating more nuts makes you live longer? According to New England Journal of Medicine study that tree nuts are. They're just one of the Best things to eat because of the Omega 3s, they help your brain, they help your heart, they help your body. It's. They're correlated with living more helpful lives. Why is this happening? So we start finding out that 25 years before, when they did this regulation of defining the term healthy, these Harvard scientists knew that sugar had a very negative impact on the bodies. And they were hired by the sugar industry. I'm not making this stuff up. It's fascinating. The sugar industry hired these Harvard scientists to deflect away from sugar into fat. And so they made fat the enemy, even though now we know there's different types of fats, right? And a lot of fats, like the complex. What are they called? I need to brush up. But it's the ones that have the Omega 3s and that help your brain. They're actually very healthy. Mono. I think monounsaturated. Monounsaturated fats. That's what predominantly nuts have. And they're actually very good for you. But when they wrote that regulation, they made it sound like all fats are bad, and they didn't even do anything about sugar. So you, under that regulation, if you could eat a product that was 95% sugar, just added sugar, refined sugars, and 5%, add some vitamins, and you could call that thing healthy. And you could not call if you had an avocado or a half a piece of salmon or tree nuts, they would not qualify as healthy. It made no sense. So we. We licked our wounds, talked to all of the doctors and the scientists, and we talked to the board. And this was a very interesting situation because I really do want to listen. I had controlling shares. I owned 80% of the company, and I had four of the five board seats. But I really listened to my board and my board because it's important to have a sounding board. It's important as you guys grow, that you have someone that can be from the outside helping you, you think through. And my board was like, daniel, just lick your wounds and move on. Like, just let it go. And I'm like, no, this is not good for society. How are we gonna allow these stupid regulation? We just learned it makes no sense. So we filed a citizen's petition in partnership with all of the doctors and all of the nutritionists. It got, like, billions of impressions, billions and billions and billions of impressions talking about this situation. Eventually, the FDA reversed itself and apologized and said that we could use the term health. And eventually the FDA passed a proposal to redefine the term healthy. And eventually they Changed the term healthy like all that because kind had the guts to stand up to the government and do that. But initially it was a depressing day. When they first wrote that letter, I didn't know that that in some way was gonna turn us into take us from here to here. Very, very interesting. We took a defeat and turned them into a success. And that's for entrepreneurs. What's really, really important is that not only you don't get defeated and you, you get up and try, you turn those crisis into opportunities, you work hard to try to turn all of those bad things into something positive.

[Josh]

I love that. And that's. That's honestly a mantra that we've been sharing with the team recently is like the. Your biggest failures, the complaints, anything you may receive are actually your greatest sources of learning. To improve the product, improve the service or improve whatever it is that you're working on is you have to turn those losses into lessons. And I think that's an amaz of you doing that exact thing.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

And to build on what you said, Josh, when you are getting feedback, that feedback is very valuable. It tends to be people that are very passionate. And so rather than just controlling and neutralizing that, you want to embrace that with jiu jitsu and turn it into strength. So anytime somebody complained to us, we would send them a gigantic gift basket of kind bars and we would turn them from a detractor into the biggest kind ambassador. You were asking about our techniques early on. Turning the people that were disappointed about anything into your biggest allies was one of the key things why Kyle grew so much because then they become your biggest fans and then they tend to be the passionate people that comment and talk and recommend. So it was an important part of our strategy.

[Jack]

One interesting thing I'd love to get your take on is you see a lot of big influencers nowadays coming out with their own consumer products like MrBeast has Feastables. You know, Ryan Trahan, who's a big YouTuber, has Joyride, which is Candy Logan Paul has Prime. So what would your advice be? Cause I feel like that new generation of media entrepreneurs that are launching products are going to inspire a lot of other entrepreneurs to launch their own food or beverage brand. What would your advice be to those entrepreneurs that are looking to start?

[James]

Well, Daniel didn't tell you he's going to help us launch our snack.

[Jack]

Let's go 100%.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Well, Jimmy, Mr. Beast, he announced are very friendly and he asked me for advice on feastables and we've had many, many conversations and my general advice to anybody is don't rely too much on your laurels from something else. Meaning it is true that on the strength of Mr. Beast, he'll get people to try things things once. But if you then disappoint your consumer, you're going to hurt your franchise. And not only are you going to hurt Feastables, you're going to hurt the MrBeast franchise. So whenever you do something, you need to be building goodwill. Whatever product or service you're creating, you need to be the best at it and not rely on your other thing for people to do you the favor because they'll do that once. So let's say MrBeast has so many fans, Feastables has to stand on their own. It has to be a better product experience than any of its competitors. If you take shortcuts and you're just, no, no, I have enough of a brand of why this is going to happen. Whether it's Feastables, prime or any brand, the product has to stand on its own merit. If it doesn't, it's going to not just eventually kill that product, but it's actually going to hurt your overall mothership brand because people are trusting you. And I can give you a very funny example of something that happened to me. That was my lesson. Talking about P. I have a thousand mistakes. One of them was like this. You have time for a quick story?

[Jack]

Absolutely, of course.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

So I launched these Peace Rocks products with Moshe Pupika and Ali Mishram because world famous gourmet foods, that was bad enough. But then originally the products were actually quite good. And this was a venture where Israelis, Palestinians, Jordanians, Egyptians, Turks were trading with one another other. And we're making a line of olive spread, basil pesto and sundy tomato spread. And they are delicious, really, really delicious. You down a whole jar in a sitting. They were so good. That's how I started the company and turned theory into practice. Because I found this sun dried tomato spread and so the product's doing well. And so I'm given the advice by these smart people like just expand your product. So I'm like, okay, let's go from those three to launch six and then from six to eight and the next three and five products were good. They were not excellent, not like the first three, but they were fine. And then I make the cardinal sin. Everybody's like, daniel, Daniel, you just need to get more shelf space. So I get Greedy. I'm like 25, 27 years old at the time and I start expanding. I'M like, give me more, give me more, give me more. I have friends in this space. I'm going to get them to give me more shelf space. And they're like, well, I don't know what else to do. What about this? What about that? And before you know it, we developed 15 products. And the last two, the last two are the stupidest things that I should have launched. One was called Sweet and Spicy Teriyaki Pepper Spread. Like why would people be buying from Mediterranean Israelis and Pasadenas a teriyaki pepper spread? But the product was so fencing to humanity. You opened it up and it was this gelatinous blah, blah, blah plate almost had a life of its own. You could have plated like a ball. It was horrible. It was horrible. But I was so naive that I'm like, okay, you know, know I told myself, look, you know, if somebody doesn't like this one, they'll buy the other one. Biggest mistake, biggest mistake. I betrayed the consumers that had trusted me. You had people that were buying my sun dried turmeric spread and tried my garlic spread. And then all of a sudden they go to this gelatinous blob and they're like, who is this guy? Like he's betrayed me. Think about the betrayal like you're spending $4 for the guy's block, trusting him and, and the jerk motherfucker fucked you over and gave you that shit. You're never going to buy this stuff again. Nothing, not just, not that Sweet and Spicy teriyaki spread you and all of a sudden motion poop. Economic sales tanked and it was a very big lesson, like you have to honor your consumer. You cannot launch anything unless it exceeds expectations that you have set for yourself, which should be very high expectations for anything you do.

[James]

Jack touched on a little while ago that you are an investor on Shark Tank.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Shrey got a little passionate about that.

[Josh]

That was great. There are so many lessons just dropped in there, by the way. Like seriously like Pete, you have to put the consumer first.

[Jack]

Especially. Cause you know, you know, Mr. Beast launches Feastables and if the chocolate bar sucks then, you know, and Jimmy.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Talked about it by the way. He, he initially had that and then he improved and improved and improved. But there's a big difference between consumer product goods and tech. Very, very big difference in tech and in other sectors you can fail fast. It's okay. You try something, doesn't work. Try something again. Not in consumer product goods. Somebody's putting something into their body. Somebody's trying. You, you have to win. You have to have a very high standard. You cannot fail fast there because then they'll lose trust in your brand. So in all consumer product goods.

[James]

But you were gonna say something because you hear so many people say all the time, oh, you know, feel free to fail. You don't necessarily lie with that advice.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

Not in consumer goods. Biggest mistake you can make, you launch one bad thing and it happens all the time. Oreo, everybody does this and I don't understand it, but you have a great iconic brand and all of a sudden you take your consumer for granted. By the way, I did it when I was 25, 27, but I learned my lesson. Like, like you cannot do that to your consumer.

[James]

It.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

It is going to be the undoing of your brand.

[James]

So Jack had touched on a little while ago that, you know, you are a shark tank investor and you invest in a lot of companies. Even outside of shark tank. I wanted to ask about, you know, one of the questions that you asked us is if we had wanted to. To raise money or thought about it. And when I said no, not really, and you're like, and you said good. I wanted to get your take on. How do you know, kind of, kind of determine when you're advising people that hey, this is a good idea to maybe go take in some extra capital from a nice set of investors. But there's a big risk there as well for a lot of people because not all money is good money. Right. When people are taking in investor money, what kind of are those signs when you're kind of advising somebody that tells you, hey, I would just continue to bootstrap this thing or hey, I would look to maybe go raise some money from some trustworthy notable investors in your company.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

There's so much, there's hours of conversation and that you raise the money from matters a ton. I've seen people get their asses kicked. Like I've seen. You're like, why do we have this guy on the show if he doesn't even speak good English?

[Jack]

No, I love.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

But I've seen, I've seen horrible things happen to good people. Like, do you. Do you know about Neuro?

[James]

The Neuro guys, The neurogams?

[Jack]

Neuro?

[James]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Yes.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I don't know if you heard that story, but they, they were going to get. But it's actually not an investor story. Let me tell you the new story in a second. I'm going to. Are you editing this or no? Yes. Let me try that one again because I have one thing that we should talk about. Neuro, but it's not about investors. So let me just start again. This is a really, really important question because who you choose to bring money from matters a ton. There's a lot of unscrupulous people, and if you associate yourself with people that have no integrity, I've seen it happen. Even it happened to me, where people try to take your company away from you or when people to take advantage or they like. I have a lot of entrepreneurs that I've helped to try to undo some of the harm that was done to them, but it's very, very hard. So who you choose, first of all, make sure they have good integrity and a good reputation. Second, ideally, make sure they're smart money, because there's a very difference between people that know what they're doing and can add value and can be a good mentor versus people that are just writing a check. And ideally, you want people with high integrity who know what they're doing and who have the time to give you some guid that that is a real amazing gift to have on your corner. But then it begs the question whether you need it. You could also get an advisor and give them a couple points to advise you or get friends that help you. So there's very different industries, right? Like there's certain industries where you cannot grow without it being capital intensive, so you're going to need the money, so you have no other option. But in industries where you can grow organically by bootstrapping and on your own and you don't have to have the capital, you're better off not bringing investors unless they're enormously valuable as strategic investors. Now, two more quick things. Sometimes you do want to reach a point where you're like, I need to diversify because God forbid something happens and I have all of my eggs in this basket. And I pretty sure I'm mangling some of these idioms at some point, but I apologize, but I think that one's right. All my eggs.

[Jack]

In your past.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

You sometimes want to diversify just because you already made enough money and you want to not have all of that risk. So that's separate criteria. But then ideally, that's when you're saying you've really, really created a lot of value already. And then the last quick point that I'll share on this is you ideally want to raise either no money or the minimal amount of money at the early stages where you're proving out your product. And to the extent that you need money, you want to raise money once you've proven out the product and you're ready to scale when it's time to pour water and to just grow the thing. So, for example, once kind had figured out the product and it was a good product and it was, but it was just about scaling up. Arguably, that's when you could have gotten an investor. We actually didn't need it at the time because we were cash flow positive and we could have financed. But let's, let's assume that we hadn't figured out our cash flow so that as we were growing, we, we were stretched by not having enough capital. Then it makes sense for you to bring in capital to help you grow. But if you bring in the money early on, when you don't have a product or where the product hasn't really been, the mousetrap has not been perfected, then it's going to cost you more and you're going to dilute yourself more.

[James]

I love it. Thank you for that. And Daniel, this has been a beautiful episode. We like to end these podcasts off with two last questions. I'll start and then I'll let Jack close this out. But Daniel, I asked you the same thing and I'm going to ask you again. If me and you were to pass away tomorrow and you had one more message to leave with the younger generation, what would that be?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I think it's really important to build bridges. I think we're living at a very critical time where there's a lot of forces calling upon us to divide one another, to bring each other down to us versus them. And that's not good for anybody. So I think it's really, really, really important that you find that one to build, to build together. And you know, we have this is the builders movement. It's about helping people replace all these us versus them. Tearing each other apart by building together, building enterprises, but also building bridges, building jobs, building opportunities, and being a builder rather than a destroyer.

[Jack]

Yes, sir. And, you know, when it's all said and done, how do you want to be remembered?

[Daniel Lubetzky]

I think it's about that, you know, like Maya Angelou said that people are not going to remember what you said to them or what you did, but how you made them feel. I'd love to be like my father who everybody that I still, sometimes I go to San Antonio airport and the flight attendant or the person at the checkout counter sees my license. Like, were you related to Mr. Lubetzky? And they still remember my dad because always made everybody smile, always made everybody feel good about themselves. And so I think that that would be, would be wonderful. But if I can do more than that and then be part of helping build something that overcomes all of these divisions and helps all of us as citizens sees back the agenda for working together, that'd be even better.

[James]

I love that. And for everybody that's tuned in right now, guys, be sure to like and subscribe for amazing content we have coming every single week. That is a wrap today's episode with the legendary Daniel Lubecki. Thank you for coming on, my friend. We appreciate you.

[Daniel Lubetzky]

So excited to be here with you guys and also very excited to continue seeing you guys grow. The beautiful message, hard work message and lessons that you're giving. I by the way, I watch your stuff. I love, I really enjoy it. It's really cool stuff. Thank you.

[James]

It means a lot. And we're going to put the links down to all of your social media in the description so that way people can continue to follow along with you and listen to your great advice through your content. And as well we're also going to put the L down in the description to join the School of Mentors which is the number one most powerful entrepreneur, community and network that the three of us launched about a year ago where you get direct access to live calls. We host every week with the Entrepreneurs UCS interview the 8, 9 and 10 figure entrepreneurs and builders. You get direct access to them on live calls every week on the inside. So we can't wait to see you on the inside of the community. With that being said, we'll see you in the next episode.