Jeremy Miner | Founder & CEO of 7th Level - How Anyone Can Become Successful in Sales & How to Be a Master Communicator

Summary

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School of Hard Knocks Podcast

Episode: Jeremy Miner | How Anyone Can Become Successful in Sales & Be a Master Communicator

Release Date: May 15, 2024
Host: The School of Hard Knocks Panel – James, Jack, Josh
Guest: Jeremy Miner, Founder & CEO of 7th Level

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Overview:

This episode features Jeremy Miner, celebrated sales leader and founder of 7th Level, one of the largest sales training organizations worldwide. Jeremy unpacks the fundamentals of world-class selling, debunks sales myths, and teaches how anyone—not just “born salespeople”—can master communication and become successful in sales. He draws deeply from his background in behavioral science and sales psychology, offering concrete tactics for better questioning, disarming prospects, objection prevention, and building a high-performing culture in both sales teams and organizations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Jeremy’s Journey: From Reluctant Salesman to Industry Leader

• Background: Started selling home security systems door-to-door at age 21 out of financial necessity—with a kid on the way and getting married ([00:29]).
• Struggles: Early failure due to lack of correct sales training; leaned on college studies in behavioral science and human psychology to understand decision-making ([00:29], [01:33]).
• Breakthrough: Merged psychology insights with sales, leading to dramatic sales success and, eventually, the launch of 7th Level in 2018 ([00:29], [04:03]).

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Myth-Busting: The “Born Salesperson” Fallacy

• Jeremy: "Do you know anybody that's born with advanced questioning skills?... Advanced tonality skills?... Advanced objection handling?... That's a myth." ([02:19])
• Insight: Sales success is not innate. Skills such as questioning, tonality, and objection handling must be learned and practiced—like any discipline ([02:36]).

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The Importance of Obsession and Skill Mastery

• Dedication: Success attributed to an "obsession" for refining every part of the sales process—reviewing losses, tweaking scripts, and understanding triggers ([04:03]).
• Behavioral Science Edge: Leveraged studies of fight-or-flight response, using strategic tonality to avoid triggering defensive reactions ([04:03]).

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Redefining Rapport & Why People Buy

• Outdated Wisdom: Challenges Dale Carnegie's “people buy from people they like”—now, trust in the salesperson's results is more critical ([05:42]).
• Jeremy: "People buy from people who they trust can get them the best result. Now, if they like you, that's just a bonus." ([05:42])
• Modern Selling: In a world where everyone is constantly being sold to, standing out requires breaking salesy patterns and focusing on trust & value, not just likeability ([05:42]).

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Disarming Prospects & Moving Beyond Surface Conversations

• The ABDs: Always Be Disarming. Use playful and relaxed tones to lower defenses and create authentic conversations ([08:12], [09:18]).
• Examples: Replace common greetings with humor or familiarity to quickly relax prospects ([08:12]).
• Quality of Questions: The way questions are asked (tone, pacing, pausing for reflection) is crucial to unlocking deeper, emotional answers ([09:40]).

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Mastering Tonality: The Five Critical Tones

Jeremy details five tonal strategies for top 1% salespeople ([11:30]):

1. Curious Tone: Used when seeking information (e.g., “Walk me through how you generate leads?”).
2. Confused Tone: For prompting clarification on emotional triggers (“Stress? How do you mean by stress?”).
3. Challenging Tone: Deployed later in trust-building to push for insight (“What if you don’t do anything about this?”).
4. Playful Tone: Diffuses tension (“Should I forgive you for showing up late?”).
5. Concerned Tone: Soft empathy, especially when addressing objections (“What’s really holding you back from moving forward?”).

"Your face is like your remote control to your tone. Try having a confused tone with a straight face—you can't."
– Jeremy Miner ([11:30])

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Listening With Purpose

• Fine Balance: Important to actively listen, but also interject tactfully to guide conversations and prevent unproductive tangents ([16:00]).
• Reframing: Re-center prospects when they stray, clarifying and bringing focus back to business-pertinent issues ([16:00]).

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Finding the Right Coaching and Mentors

• Caution: Not all industry coaches have walked the walk—seek mentors with a proven track record in the results you desire ([17:28]).
• Jeremy: "If you want to make a certain level, but you're trained by someone who’s never hit that, what's the likelihood you will?" ([17:28])

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NEPQ: Neuro Emotional Persuasion Questioning

• Definition: Methodology Jeremy developed—designed to have prospects “do the work” of selling themselves via emotionally-charged, strategic questions ([18:57]).
• Key Principle: Shift away from pressuring, convincing, and chasing; instead, guide prospects to self-discovery and qualification ([18:57]).

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Multi-Call Sales & The Real Moment of Closing

• Common Mistake: Salespeople mistake polite indecision for strong interest when there’s no next appointment ([20:42]).
• Insight: The sale is made through the entire consultative process—by building an emotional gap between current pain and desired outcomes, not simply at the final closing question ([22:29]).
• Changing Perceptions: High-pressure tactics and manipulative communication have stigmatized sales—modern selling shifts the dynamic so prospects feel they're “buying,” not being sold ([22:53]).

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Scaling a Sales Organization

• Transition: Moving from personal sales success to building a company (7 to 9-figure revenue) required developing a strong team and hiring to cover blind spots ([24:11], [26:31]).
• Culture & Vision: Carefully hiring for shared vision, skill alignment, and integrity over “throwing bodies” into roles ([26:31]).
• Hard Lesson: Early rapid growth led to filling roles with poorly suited people; stability came by bringing in experienced, talented hires ([28:01]).

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Keys to Accelerating as a Salesperson

• The Commitment: Mastery requires significant time, repetition, and training—not just reading a book or quick course ([29:55]).
• Jeremy: “I just outlearned everybody else. I invested more money. I paid tonality coaches, acting coaches... to teach me how to use my tone and facial expressions.” ([29:55])

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Personal Branding in the Digital Age

• Substance First: Don’t rush into branding—ensure you have genuine skills and results to back it up ([31:55]).
• Consistency: Avoid confusing the marketplace by jumping niches; people should know clearly what you offer ([31:55]).

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The Future of Sales – AI’s Impact

• Prediction: AI will replace many low-ticket transactional sales, but high-ticket and consultative sales will require human expertise ([33:50]).
• Trust Factor: As AI becomes more regulated, consumers may actually prefer human interaction to avoid feeling manipulated ([33:50]).

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Objection Prevention, Not Just Handling

• Objection Root: Most objections stem from uncertainty; certainty created by the salesperson’s approach can dramatically decrease pushback ([35:32]).
• Jeremy: “The more objections you get, the more uncertainty you triggered in their mind and less likely they are to buy.” ([36:28])

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Advice to Aspiring Salespeople

• Start in the Trenches: Best to begin with door-to-door, cold calling, or SDR positions; sharpens skill, mental agility, and resilience ([37:46], [37:59]).
• Acquiring Confidence: Skill—developed through deliberate learning and practice—not motivation, is the foundation for lasting confidence ([39:45]).

“You want a higher confidence level? Acquire a higher skill level. Your confidence level goes where your skill level is.”
– Jeremy Miner ([39:45])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Skill Development:
  “No one is born with those skills... you learn the technique. As a salesperson, you learn how to ask questions, prevent objections, help the prospect overcome concerns.” ([02:36])

• On Modern Rapport:
  “People buy from people who they trust can get them the best result. If they like you, that's just a bonus.” ([05:42])

• On Tonality:
  "Your face is like your remote control to your tone." ([11:30])

• On Market Shifts:
  “I believe AI is going to replace smaller type sales...but will it replace all salespeople? Absolutely not.” ([33:50])

• On Confidence:
  “Acquire the right skills with everybody you do, whatever you want to do and you'll have a higher confidence level.” ([39:45])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Jeremy’s Backstory & Behavior Science in Sales: [00:29]–[04:03]
• Debunking “Born Salesperson” Myth: [02:19]–[03:47]
• Building Trust vs. Likeability: [05:42]–[07:57]
• Disarming Prospects & Tonal Techniques: [08:12]–[14:30]
• Active Listening & Conversation Control: [15:27]–[17:08]
• Choosing and Vetting Sales Coaches: [17:28]–[18:33]
• NEPQ Methodology Explained: [18:57]–[20:20]
• The Art of Closing Across Multiple Calls: [20:42]–[22:29]
• Changing Societal Perceptions of Sales: [22:53]–[24:11]
• Scaling from Salesperson to CEO: [24:11]–[28:01]
• Advice for Beginners and Commitment to Mastery: [29:55]–[31:33]
• Personal Branding Effectiveness: [31:55]–[33:34]
• AI’s Impact & The Future of Sales: [33:50]–[35:22]
• Objection Prevention: [35:32]–[37:36]
• Blueprint for New Salespeople: [37:46]–[40:50]

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Final Thoughts

Jeremy Miner's philosophy is clear: sales mastery is a learned discipline blending psychology, skillful questioning, and intentional tone. In today's world, trust and skill beat out charm, and the salesperson’s power lies in their relentless commitment to learning and acting as a true advisor—not a pushy closer. This episode is a must for anyone in sales, entrepreneurship, or who aspires to be a world-class communicator.

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Find Jeremy:

• Instagram (verified): @jeremyminerofficial
• YouTube: Jeremy Miner
• Book: The New Model of Selling: Selling to an Unsellable Generation (Barnes & Noble)

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

Welcome back to the School of Hard Knocks podcast. I'm James and I'm here with Jack and Josh. We're out in Scottsdale, Arizona with a very special guest, Jeremy Miner, who's a sales legend, one of the greatest salesmen, I'd say, in the United States right now. He's the founder of the third largest sales training organization in the entire world.

[B]

At least my grandma tells me that.

[A]

Yeah, that's incredible though.

[B]

Grandma likes me.

[A]

Seriously though, for those maybe who are some new viewers, they're not super aware with who you are. Could you give a little bit of a background, a story about yourself, kind of how you got to where you are now? Just let the people know who you are.

[B]

Yeah. So I started as a salesperson, probably like you watching me 23 years ago, got my first job selling home security systems door to door. I think my going into my senior year in school because I like had to make money. I had a kid on the way. I was getting married at that time and you know, suffered really hard the first two or three months because just wasn't really taught the right way to sell. And at the same time I was going to school. My major is behavioral science, human psychology. Kind of study the brain, like why and how human beings make decisions. So I'm like trying to take what I'm learning in school about the brain and I'm like, oh, well, this kind of makes sense because if I'm trying to persuade somebody, I need to understand, you know, what happens in their brain that causes them to say yes compared to saying no. Right. So I went on this like, mission of like trying to figure this out. And you know, supposedly I did and made a few bucks along the way and then retired. And 2017 and late 2018, started my own sales training firm called 7th Level. Yep, here we are.

[A]

I was gonna ask you, did. Did having kids make you hustle harder?

[B]

I mean, yeah, out of necessity, because I didn't really have a choice. So you know when you're like. It was kind of like, I've heard, I think Tony Robbins said it. I might be butchering what he said, you know, forgive me Tony if I've sinned here. But I remember him saying something like, you know, when you, when you pull up to the island, like, you gotta burn the boats, like, there's no going back. So like, you know, as a 21, 20 year old, two kid, like, I kind of had to like burn the boat. Like I didn't have a choice. It was like plan A. And it was only Plan A. And I was gonna have to figure out how plan A works because there was no plan B.

[A]

Right. And I wanted to ask you, right. Like for you personally, was that was a part of that salesmanship, Was it innate? Was it kind of born in you?

[B]

Was.

[A]

Was there a natural salesmanship there? Or was a lot of it kind of self taught or you learned from other people and just in general, right. For people in today's world, Right. A lot of people do struggle with sales. Do you think it kind of is a part of some people to either have that or not? Or like, how much of that can you really develop?

[B]

Let me ask you this question. Do you know anybody that's born with advanced questioning skills?

[A]

No.

[B]

Do you know anybody that was born out of their mother's room with advanced tonality skills?

[A]

No.

[B]

Do you know anybody that was born out of their mother's womb with advanced objection. Handling and prevention skills?

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay. So when people say, oh, you know, people are just naturally born salespeople, that's a myth. Like what data shows, what scientific evidence shows that someone in their DNA is born to magically as a salesperson? Because salespeople, like, don't just like, you know, when you think of a salesperson, they're not like, the great salespeople in the world are not like, they just talk all the time. That's what average salespeople do, actually. So the greatest salespeople in the world are the ones that are best at asking the right questions to get the prospect to internalize and think deeper about their situation and help them find problems they didn't realize they have right then. Being able to get them to see what the future looks like once those problems are solved. So no one is born with those skills. Like, nobody's born as a natural golfer. Right. They learn the technique to golf. So as a salesperson, you learn the techniques, you learn the tonality, you learn how to ask questions, you learn what to say to prevent objections. You learn how to help the prospect overcome their concerns. Those are skills you have to acquire and learn. Yeah, so I was obviously not born with any of those skills. I grew up on a, on a cattle ranch outside of a town with less than 800 people in Missouri in it. So unfortunately for me, they didn't teach me that in high school.

[C]

You, in your career when you were a salesman, you know, coming up through the ranks, you amassed, you know, multiple seven figures a year as a salesman in commission sales. What separated you apart and how did you get in that role? Learn to separate yourself to go from just, you know, a couple commission checks here and there to being a high seven figure earner.

[B]

Yeah, I think it was like my dedication to acquiring the skill. Like, I was obsessed about everything I did. Like, every, like, every word I use from the start of that conversation to the end. I was obsessed of tweaking it to make it, like, making it sure it was almost perfect that if I lost a deal, I'd go back and like, what did I say? Like, what did I. What did I not ask? Like, what did I do that triggered that prospect that had problems that I could have solved to not buy from me? And I was obsessed with figuring out and tweaking it where I just didn't lose that many deals. So, you know, my background went to school for human behavior, social dynamics. So I kind of had an advantage of like, oh, like, you know, this is what causes a human being to go into fight or flight mode. This is what causes the survival part of the brain. Your tonality, actually, you know, like a telemarketer calls you, like, hi, my name is. I'm with XYZ company And you're not even listening to the words. You're hearing their tone, and immediately you get defensive, right? It's defensive reaction in your survival part of your brain that says salesperson trying to sell me something, and you instantly go into fight or flight mode. So if I can learn how to adjust my tonality where I don't sound like a salesperson, if I can ask different words, if I can interrupt that pattern in their brain, I just have a far higher advantage to close sales than other salespeople do. But I had to learn those skills. Not, like I said, not something I was born with. Nobody is.

[D]

There's a common saying that people buy from people that they like. And one of the biggest things that you have to learn in sales is how to build rapport, how to build a relationship with those customers. What advice would you give to newer salespeople that are looking to build a connection with their customers?

[B]

Don't sound like all the other sales people. Hi, how you doing? How's your day going, sir? Hey, can I have two minutes of your time where I can share with you my xyz, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because you sound like everybody else, your prospect. Like I said, we are constantly, as a society, we are constantly being sold to all of the time. I'll give you an example. Like when you wake up in the morning, besides going to the bathroom, what's one of the first things you do look at your phone, and you see ads trying to sell you something, right? Starts in the very first day. You walk into your kitchen, you turn on the tv, maybe you're drinking some coffee, getting ready for work. You see commercials trying to sell you something. You get in your car to go to the gym, turn on the radio, you hear what ads on the radio trying to sell you something. You drive down the road, there's these things called billboards trying to sell you something. You get into your office, maybe you get back on social media. You notice, you know, that grandma's pitching her latest greatest MLM opportunity or whatever. So you're constantly, and I love MLMs, but you're constantly being sold to all the time. And so because of that society, human beings have built up defensive mechanisms in their brain. Anytime they feel you're trying to sell them something, they go into like, surface level, like fight or flight mode. So when you ask questions, you ever notice some of your prospects give you, like, vague, generalized surface level answers? That's because they've been triggered to like, stay surface level. They're trying to protect themselves so they don't have to buy something. So if I can learn how to not sound like all the other salespeople, because I would say, you know that saying from Dale Carnegie, that's where you got it. Like, people buy from people they like. I would say, well, that was in 1936, when you wrote that book. It's 2024. I would say people buy from people who they trust can get them the best results. That doesn't necessarily mean they have to like you, like we're friends, but they trust you can give them a better result. Because, you know, like I was telling you, you love grandma, but let's say you meet somebody else that you don't even know and they're selling the same thing, but you feel like that person can get you a better result, who are you going to buy from, grandma? Who you like or the person who you feel gonna get a better result? Person get a better result. So people buy from people who they trust can get them the best result. Now, if they like you, that's just a bonus. But that's not the deciding factor.

[C]

Yeah, you talk about, you know, when people, they're in that high stakes kind of, they get that kind of anxiety, they feel like they're being sold to, they're gonna stay really surface level. What are those kind of different tactics or, you know, things in the conversation that you can use to really kind of get them to go more deeper, really to open up with you.

[B]

We call that disarming the prospect. We call the abds of selling. Always be disarming. Like, instead of ABCs of closing, I'm like, always trying to disarm. Always trying to disarm the prospect. So let's say that, I don't know, let's say we're on zoom and you're the prospect. Just give me an example. And you get on there and you're like, hey, and I'm the salesperson. And you as a prospect, you say, hey, how are you doing today? Or how's your day going? Now, most salespeople would just be like, oh, you know, I'm doing good. You know, drinking coffee, working hard, that doesn't hurt you, but that doesn't really help you. So I'm looking to how can I disarm this prospect to get them to pull me in? So I might say, oh, you know, just hanging out, being the boring guy. What about you? You know what they'll do? Oh, I'm sure you're not boring, you know, but it's how I use my tone there. See, I used a playful tone because if I said it in this tone, just hanging out, being the boring guy. How about you? Whoa, that's kind of weird, right? Or I might say, you know, just hanging out, trying to stay out of trouble. Are you getting into trouble over there, Joanne? Oh, oh, no, I would never get in trouble. See, that playful tone causes them to kind of relax, like, let their guard down. So that's just kind of one example out of a really a million I could give you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I wanted to ask you, right, because, you know, we recently did an interview with Ryan Serhant, and one of the things that he said is that people hate being sold to, but they love to buy and particularly, like, they love to shop with their friends. So, like, kind of, where do you kind of meet people in that bottom line, right, where, like, you're trying to get your product or your service across, but how do you find it, you know, know, at that middle point where, like, you're able to do that in a way that people. Again, it isn't coming off as, like, super salesy.

[B]

I believe it's the, it's the, it's the quality of questions you ask that get them to internalize what you're asking, and it's how you ask the questions. Because one of the biggest reasons why most salespeople get surface level answers from their prospects is they actually ask the questions so fast that the prospect has no time to internalize and think deep about what you're asking. Right. So if I'm, let's say if I'm selling, I don't know, life insurance for example. And I might ask what we call a consequence question when I'm, when I'm three, four of the way through that conversation. And I might say, so what happens if you, I mean if you don't do anything about this, you just keep the work policy you have now, but then you lose Dan's income like years before you thought like how would you be able to pay for the house and the, the kids school with, without Dan's income? Right. See how I'm like verbal pacing that question out? Because what if I said it real fast. What happens if you don't do anything about this and you lose Dan's income years before you thought you could? How would you be able to pay for the house and your kids tuition at that point? Oh, I'll just figure something out. See if I ask a knee jerk surface level question, that's too fast. I'm going to get a surface level knee jerk reaction back and the prospect doesn't go below the surface. You always hear that people buy emotionally and they just about logic. Right. And that's true. So if they stay surface level, more than likely they're not going to buy or they're going to give you tons of objections, you have a hard time and then let's say they do buy, they might come back and just cancel because you externally persuaded them. But once you left they start to change their mind. Yeah, that would be an example.

[C]

You bring up tonality and the different tonalities in the sale. What are those different types of tonalities that sales salespeople can use in the sale and then also when should they use the different tones?

[B]

Yeah. So we train. There's five types of tonalities that you really have to master if you want to be a top 1% salesperson. Now there's subcategories of each of these tones. So you've got a curious tone. So I'll give you an example. Like your tone is how the prospect interprets your intention behind everything you're asking. That's how they interpret why you're asking the question. Question. Okay, so there's a curious tone. So like if I'm trying to find out what their real situation is, I'm going to use more of a curious tone. So let's say if I'm a marketing agency and I'm selling to a company, walk me through. What do you guys do to, you know, generate new leads and clients? So I understand that's just a curious tone. Okay. There's other situations where I'm going to use more of a confused tone. So let's say a prospect tells me something emotional and they say, oh, you know, this XYZ problem has just been causing a lot of stress. Hold on. Stress? Or how do you mean by stress? Right. That's a confused tone. Now what that does. See the facial expressions as well. Your face is like your. I always say it's your remote control to your tone. Right? Try having a confused tone with like a straight face. Like, you can't do that. Right. So what happens is when you use that confused tone. Oh, hold on. I need my stress. Right. Subconsciously their brain says, oh, he didn't understand what I meant by stress. I need to explain that better. And so they start to expand. Well, hell yeah, the stress. And they start to expand on the pain. See, what are the two biggest emotional drivers that causes a human being to want to change? Pain or the fear of future pain? So if I can't help the prospect relive their pain of their current situation, they don't feel any need to change. And if a prospect feels no need to change, that's why you get lots of objections and that's why they don't buy. So that's a confused tone. Now, there's other examples that I would use a confused tone, depending on what I'm doing. Then you've got a challenging tone. Now, I'm not. I can't use a challenging tone in the first couple minutes of a conversation because I don't have much trust and credibility. But let's say I get 3/4 of the way in and I want to ask a. Well, what. What if you don't do anything about this and this actually gets worse? See, that's a challenging tone. Like I'm trying to trigger them to defend themselves on why they need to change. Is that maybe good? If the prospect tells you, defends their position of why they have to change, that's probably what you. Because all selling is change. And then, you know, we have the playful tone. You know, the, you know, oh, should I forgive you for showing up late this time? You know, like, you know, just my tone. And then you have a concern tone. So let's say they're not moving forward. You can't overcome an objection. You, you might move forward and be like, can I, can I ask you something? Sure, go ahead. And this is off the record, you know what's really holding you back from moving forward? And you soft concern tone. Because what if I did this? What's holding you back from moving forward? See, they're going to get defensive now, but if I lean in, what's really holding you back from moving forward?

[C]

The other one sounds more like a, like a challenging tone.

[B]

Yeah, like I'm gonna make you defensive. Right. And see that, that, that tone, that shows empathy, that shows that I really care. Like genuine empathy causes them to internalize and open up to me. So your tone's how they. Now there's subcategories of the tone. So like for a curious tone, you know, there's also underneath that a familiar tone. So let's say when I call, like cold call leads or something like that, and, and they answer, you know, xyz, you know, this is Brad. How can I help you? Yeah, Brad, it's Jeremy. Jeremy. Jeremy Minor. Yeah. See, that's a familiar tone. So what he does in his brain, he's like, who's Jeremy Miner? He's not dare going to say who is this? Because it sounds like he should already know me. But my tone being familiar. Yeah, it's just Jeremy, Jeremy, Jeremy Minor. And he's like, how do I know Jeremy Minor? So he just goes with it. Right. But I can control him getting his guard down by simply using a familiar tone.

[A]

So anyways, yeah, we know that in sales, just as important as it is to ask the right questions, know how to handle objections, you have to know how to listen. Listening is very important. You were just talking about earlier about how somebody told you that one of the best conversations that they ever had was when, like you said, you were only speaking for 5% of it because you made them feel like super important. And you know, you know you're going to meeting with a prospective client, you're not talking about the time you met Jerry Jones at the Cowboys game, but rather how when they met Michael Jordan or saw him play back in the 90s or whenever. So how do you find that balance? Because like you said, you were able to navigate a conversation with people to make them feel like the most important person in the room.

[B]

Ultimately, it's a very fine balance because you have to listen, but you can't just let them go off on tangents. And that's a problem. I see a lot of salespeople, they get good at listening. They'll ask the question, the prospect will just like just dump for five minutes and it goes nowhere. In fact, it causes their brain to get unorganized and off the subject. And then they come back around, Tell me about what you do now, like, how much is it going to cost? Like, you lose control. So when you're listening, you also got to be able to interject at certain times to get the conversation in the right direction. So, you know, let's say you're talking about something. They start going off on a tangent. I might be like, oh, and I for sure want to know that for sure. But I wasn't understanding when you said that you had pressure at work, like, what actually happened. And now I'm interjecting, clarifying, which causes them to, like, I'm reframe, framing them back on the right path. So I got to know how to control. By reframing them back to where we were going in the conversation where, you know, there's a reason why we're having this conversation. We're not talking about grandpa and what he did in the Vietnam war back in 1967. That has nothing to do with life insurance or whatever. So it's about listening, but knowing when to interject to get them back on the right path.

[D]

Oftentimes, a lot of the most successful people in the world, from business people to, you know, professional athletes, all have coaches and mentors around them for salespeople. That's a skill, and you had to continue to develop that skill. What advice would you give to someone when it comes to finding, you know, actionable, actionable resources and coaches when it comes to sales?

[B]

I'm probably going to say something that might be a little controversial, but as I've been around this ball game here for five years, I've met a lot of coaches and mentors that I found out later were kind of exaggerating their results. So I'm not. Now, I think for the most part, there's great coaches and mentors, of course, but you got to be careful, like, which are the real ones compared to the ones that are like, okay, but exaggerate the results. So, you know, it's. It's just, you know, results. Like, what. What do they do? Like, if you're going to be trained by a sales trainer. Well, have you ever found out how successful they were in their sales career? Because that might be important, like, if you want to make. If you want to hit a certain income level, let's say as a salesperson and you're trained by a sales trainer who never hit that income level themselves, what's the likelihood of you going to be doing that? Very unlikely. Right. So you want to be trained by people who have actually got the results that you really want to get. And when you find those people, you want to latch onto them and you know, word gets out. Like word gets out if somebody can actually get your results or not eventually. So you can only fake it. You can't fake it till you make it too long without getting results.

[C]

Yeah. And it's almost like, you know, if you're, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you don't want to sit in a business class learning entrepreneurship from someone that's never started a business before. Yeah. And so like with that, I mean, bringing up business school, you know, a lot of business schools, they actually make their students teach it, like take a psychology course. I know your background's in kind of human psychology and you work on something called nepq. What is the abbreviation?

[B]

NEPQ is neuro Emotional Persuasion Questioning. So it's a, it's a methodology I developed over my close to 18 year sales career. You know, how do I get my prospects to do all the work rather than me do all the work? Because I always was like, why am I trying to convince this prospect that has all the problems that I can solve? Like, shouldn't it be the other way around? I always thought that way. I'm like, why, why would I qualify to the prospect? Because I don't have the problems. I can solve the problems. So I've got to learn how to get the prospect to qualify to me. Now that doesn't mean you're like a douche and be like, you know, at the end of the call, if this is a good fit for you and we feel you're a good fit for our company, we'll show how to get started. Like, that's just, that's just average salesmanship. That's actually bad salesmanship because most people don't believe at the end like, oh, I'm ready to pay. No, you don't qualify. Well, you can't pay me. I don't think you're a good fit. Like, people don't believe that, you know, consumers are smart. So it's, it's. I wanted to learn techniques that would get the prospect to do all the work, that would get the prospect to sell themselves rather than me try to do it because that sounds exhausting. Exhausting. I want to get them to overcome their own concerns rather than me try to do it because that sounds exhausting. Again, I wanted to learn how to get them to pull me in rather than me pushing, pressuring, chasing. Because you don't Like, I mean, none of you guys like to do that, right? So when you learn those type of techniques, it makes selling a lot easier, a lot more profitable, and you get to help a lot more people, which is what selling is about.

[A]

A lot of people in today's world, they struggle with closing. So let's say, and I want to take it more from the perspective of like, they're greater opening conversations, generating leads, getting people on the phone. But when it comes time to get on that second or third phone call or sign that dotted line, the other person gets scary. You know what I mean? Where do you see most people go wrong in that process? Right. When it spans across two, three calls and that.

[B]

Oh, like a multiple call close. Like if you're in that type of interesting, they just lose that client. And ultimately, I think, I don't necessarily know if they lost them throughout the conversation or if they never had them from the very beginning. Beginning, because a lot of salespeople are like, oh, well, they said that we're interested and we're going to go look at the proposal and we'll get back to you next week. I've got one that's interested. And I'm like, no, they just blew you off and they just told you that to make you feel better if you don't have a scheduled next call. So I think a lot of salespeople just don't realize that prospects don't necessarily tell them the truth. And that's not necessarily the prospect's fault. A lot of times I would say it's salespeople's fault in society. By the way, we've been taught how to sell, that causes the prospect to be like, oh, salesperson something bad. Even though if there were no salespeople selling things, there'd be no economy and hence no society. So I'm like, why do salespeople in society have a lower status? If everything in the world runs on the economy and things being sold, shouldn't salespeople have a higher status in the prospect's mind? So that's what, you know, that's why I started seven Blow. I want to change the way sales is perceived in society. So, yeah, so it's just about, you know, like I said earlier, like, closing is not something you do at the end where you ask them, do you want the red one or the blue one? That's not when they decide to buy. If they say, I want the red one, that means they had already decided before you asked the question. Right? They didn't buy just because of the one question. So the sale is really made in that conversation or conversations where you build a gap for, from where they are, we call that their current state to where they want to be, their objective state. What's the gap? Are all these newfound problems you're questioning and tonality ability allowed them to feel and see that they had that they didn't really understand they had before.

[D]

You mentioned about how there's a certain perception about sales in society. And if you ask, you know, a top 1% earner, they'll say that sales is one of the most important skills that you can learn in order to be successful.

[B]

Knife.

[D]

But if you ask the average, let's say middle class family, they'll say, you know, sales is kind of a grimy, shady industry. There's, there's a, there's a negative connotation with it. Where do you think is that difference?

[B]

That's because of the way salespeople have been trained to communicate that when you're, when you're high pressure and you use manipulative tactics, that has been going on for, you know, 150 years. Of course society is going to view salespeople in that way. But if I can change that dynamic where instead of the prospect viewing me as just another salesperson trying to stuff their solution down my throat, where they view me more as like the expert, like the trusted authority that can get them where they want to be, I change that dynamic. Like once you learn how to really sell like you, your prospects don't feel like they were being, they were sold. They feel like they were selling you. Does that make sense? Like the best salespeople in the world, like the prospect never felt they were being sold. They felt like you did them a favor by allowing them to pay you to solve their problems and get where they want to be. And you might not have met them, you might have just met them 20 minutes before a complete stranger. So it's all how you communicate that determines how they view you.

[C]

You look at salespeople, they might make six figures and they might be like, hey, that's a really good year. But you know, you see the plaques on the wall, you know you've had company revenue, company revenue, eight figures, nine figures. You know, you started out in that role where you were doing the six, seven figures in commission. How have you been able to scale up a company though in sales from 7, 8, and then accumulating 9 figures in company revenue?

[B]

It's a whole different dynamic. It's a whole different ball game. Going from being like A salesperson who works for a company or 1099 compared to, like, now you're running an organization. And you know, to be frank, the first year and a half, it was something I struggled with because even though it and a couple of organizations I was in, I became the vice president of sales, the chief sales officer, and I was running the sales part. But that's a whole different part than, like, your capital's on the line, you're risking everything, right? You're hiring people. They're, you know, their, their families, livelihoods depend on you and your decision. So there's like a whole different, like, ball game. So, you know, it takes a while to learn those skills. And you have to, you have to bring in the right people, you know, like, you have to bring in the right circumstances CEO to run the company. You have to bring in like a revenue officer to run, be over the revenue. You have to bring in the right people who have strengths in those areas that you have weaknesses in. You know, like, I don't want to run the business. That's not my strength. I want obviously, train salespeople. I'll, you know, recruit salespeople. Those are like, I want to focus on my strengths, and I want somebody who knows how to run a business to actually run the business side and focus on, on their strengths. So it's just a whole different ball game. And I don't think a lot of people realize, you know, let's say you're a great marketer doesn't mean you're going to be a great CEO. In fact, it could mean quite the opposite because you might be really, really creative as a marketer, but as a CEO, you just, you know, you can't make decisions. You, you, you, you can't. Like, you don't know how to scale, you don't know how to run ops, you know, those type of things. So I think as you start, you need to find a business partner first that has skills, skill sets you don't have. That's key. If you get a business partner, you have the exact same skill sets, you're going to struggle. And then you got to find the right executive team that, that are stronger in operations than you are, unless you're the one running the offside. You need to find like a CMO or vice president of marketing that's obviously extremely talented in marketing. So it's all about finding people who have strengths that you don't have.

[A]

Now, I was going to ask you, right, because you put a huge emphasis on, on team, right? And particularly we're talking earlier about investing a lot in like, quality and culture of, like, your company. What are those kind of traits that you do look for, though, in business partners, beyond just them kind of being stronger in the areas in which you may kind of not have those various strengths. Right. Like finding where you may. Your weaknesses are. Right. Finding the people that have those strengths. What are those like, traits, though, that, you know, to consistently.

[B]

It's about their vision. Like, do they have the same vision that I do where I want to take seventh level? You know, like, we don't plan on just being a sales training company. That'll always be our core. But, you know, in 2025, we're launching staffing and like a staffing and recruiting agency because we have millions of salespeople that follows. We have like, you know, millions of people on our email list. So we already have these assets that our employers are already coming to us now wanting to hire salespeople that are trained and certified in our courses. We just don't have the foundation to be able to do that successfully. So we could probably double our revenues overnight if we started that today. But things are going to break because we don't have the right people that would know how to run that. So right now we're looking at, you know, hiring the right people for that side of the business to be able to scale that out. So we'll purposely slow down our revenues to make sure our brand is protected and not just, you know, make a bunch of money for three, four, five years and then you have a reputation of not getting results and then it's over. We would rather make less revenue and grow at the right pace and get our clients results and scale that up because we have to bring in the right people and foundation to grow that side of the business.

[D]

Business, there's. There's a big difference. Or, sorry, you came from making multiple seven figures as a salesman and as a member of an organization, and then you then switch to being actually an owner and operator of a company. And within that there's a lot of differences and lessons within, you know, from being a part of a company to running a company. What was one of the hardest things you had to go through as an entrepreneur and one of the hardest lessons you had to learn. And what did you. How did you ultimately overcome that?

[B]

I go back to the team again because it's bringing in the right people to do things. Like, in the beginning, as we were growing so fast, we were just throwing bodies into positions that didn't have the skill level to be in those positions. We might be like, oh, that guy is a salesperson on our team. He's doing okay, but he seems analytical. So why don't we have him run ops? And he's never run ops before, so it's like, you know, like what were we thinking? But we were so young and so inexperienced that we were just throwing bodies in places. And for the last like year and a half we've been able to, you know, because of revenue growth and stuff, bring in people who are far more talented in those places who have already done that for years and actually know what to do. So I always go back to, you know, the people on your team. I can't stress it enough. Like you can have the greatest products and services or whatever you sell in the world, but you ain't going to go very far without the right team backing you up for sure.

[C]

How many people have you trained sales wise so far?

[B]

I mean, I don't know the number for sure. As far as clients that we have that are in like our, our paid like courses and stuff, it's a little bit over 63,000. Now some of those are companies, so one of those, you know, One of those 63,000 is a company, but we have some companies where we have, we're training like 20 or 30,000 of their reps. So I've never really put a count on like how many salespeople are we training? You know, hundreds of thousands. I don't know how many people have seen stuff on YouTube and IG, you know, we get 30 million views a month. You know, I don't know. Most of those are salespeople, so I don't really have a number.

[C]

Of course, like you've overseen a lot of different salespeople and train them through sales through that. What have you seen for maybe someone that is a beginner salesperson or they're in their sales and they have talent potential? Well, what are some of the, would you say are the biggest challenges that take someone that's really struggling in that role as a salesperson to becoming a rock star?

[B]

I'd say the biggest thing for a lot of people is they don't realize the work it takes to learn the right skills. They think they can go through a training program once or read a couple books and they think like, oh, I should be great at sales. And I'm like, dude, that's not the case. You're gonna have to put in time and effort to develop. It's like a neurosurgeon, right? Like if you want to be great at brain surgery. That's why they make him go to school for like 12 years, right? But salespeople are like, they literally think they can buy a book and somehow they're going to figure it all out. And I'm like, good luck. I hate to tell you, like, people always ask me, how did you make so much money as a salesperson? I always say, well, I just out learned everybody else. I just invested more money. Like, I paid tonality coaches, a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars on Hollywood that you watch some of their movies, like the. The people who trained actors and actresses like Leonardo DiCaprio or Matthew McConaughey or Julia Roberts while I was paying their coaches. Acting coaches teach me how to use my tone and facial expressions to communicate different messages. You know, I was spending a lot of money even in my early days of selling, which, you know, now our clients get the. You know, they get all that when they do our courses and stuff. But it's about time. It's about commitment, and it's about, like, putting, you know, money into, like, you know, training and actually doing something with it and rehearsing. And it's like being an actor and actress in Hollywood. You know, what's the difference between a Leonardo DiCaprio making $25 million a film or whatever he makes compared to the guy that's still a waiter 10 years later in Hollywood? Leo just put more time into it. He practiced the craft more. You know, they might have been born the same way, but one put in more time and effort to acquire those skills than the other did. And that's what separates them financially.

[D]

One of the things that you know is going to be more and more common, especially within this digital age, is the importance of personal branding. And it ultimately comes back to that saying, people buy from people that they like as well as they trust. And, you know, you've invested a lot of money into your own personal brand. And what advice would you have for others who are maybe thinking about investing into their own personal brand? And what's the importance of a personal brand in today's age?

[B]

I think one thing I'm always going to caution people is, like, before you just start getting out there and branding yourself, make sure you have the skill level to back it up. Because you don't have the skill level to back it up. People are going to see through that stuff. You start doing reels all the time. You don't really know what you're talking about. Doesn't make any sense. You don't really have any, like, you don't have any credibility in your career that shows that you were successful. You're just going to be like, you're just going to get lost in the, in the sea of amateurs, right? So if you want to stand out, you need to have the skill level to back it up. So even if you're like, man, I'm 20, I'm 21, I want to get out there and do it, I'd be like, hey, you need to learn the skill level. Maybe you start doing it right now, but before you try to blow up on social media, back it up with the skill level. You know, go out and prove yourself and then come in and do it. Because I promise you, your brand will last way longer if you do that. Because I see a lot of people and they'll, they'll have like, start to brand themselves as they're this one day and then like a year and a half later, now they're doing this and you're like, wait a minute, I thought you, I thought you were a sales trainer and now you're pitching crypto. Or like, oh, he's pitching crypto now, but now he's pitching NFTs, or he was doing NFTs, but now he's AI. Like, they're all over the place. So I don't know what their brand is. Like, I'm confused by the brand. You know, are they fitness coach, are they, you know, AI, are they doing crypto? Like, I don't know, because they're doing something different every six months. And to me, that just lowers your status. Like, if you watch me on social media, you're probably going to know what, oh, it must be. Have a sales training company, right? Like, I'm not necessarily talking about my, my favorite foods or whatever. You know, I mean, that's cool if people do that, but when people watch us, they're like, oh, sales trainer, you know, that that's, that's how we're branded, you know, because that's what we are.

[A]

Yeah, you had a career in sales for 18 years and obviously now been running a, you know, sales training company for the last five and a half. Are there any developments in the sales game over the Next, let's say five to 10 years that you think people should be really cautious of, aware of anything that you're bracing for preparing for over the next five to 10 years?

[B]

Yeah, I think AI is going to replace lower ticket sales, not higher ticket sales. When I say higher ticket, that doesn't mean, like, just Coaching programs. I'm talking about, you know, I might be selling cybersecurity to banks, right. And there might be half a million dollars to $2 million deals. I believe that that AI is going to replace smaller type of sales, like 100 bucks here, 50 bucks here, 200 bucks here. But I don't believe it'll ever replace all sales like a lot of people do. You know why there's this thing, this organization called the ftc. And so I can only imagine when somebody spends five grand on something or whatever it is, and they're like, they call in to the attorney general, like, I got scammed by this robot who manipulated me and convinced me to buy when I didn't want to buy. And FTC is going to come in and put the hammer down and that AI is going to get really, really regulated. In fact, I think it's going to get to a point where people actually perform, prefer to talk to a salesperson over AI, okay? Because they're going to believe AI is going to manipulate them into buying where they feel like a salesperson. They can at least control that buying process. So what we're preparing for is, you know, companies that, that sell this smaller ticket stuff. Well, if they want to use AI to sell it, they're going to have to have what they're going to have to license a methodology. So we're preparing ourselves for our stuff to be licensed by corporations that they'll follow that process. Any PQ for lower ticket stuff. But will it replace all salespeople? Absolutely not. Just kind of the smaller ticket stuff. So we're preparing for that AI switch over. Yeah.

[C]

What would you say are probably some of the most common objections that a lot of the salespeople that you train that they're faced with and how can they overcome those?

[B]

I believe every objection comes from a lack of in the prospect's mind. See, I want to know why do objections happen? It's a lack of certainty. Now, who controls the prospect, having certainty or uncertainty? For the most part, it's you, the salesperson. Right. You control that by the questions you ask, how you use your tone. Did you get them surface level where they, you know, the wall resistance was up? Did you get them to let their guard down and open up emotionally? You control whether they're going to be certain or uncertain. Right. So if I can control that, where they walk, they in that conversation, they have 100% certainty that they can feel, I can get them that result. I drastically reduce my objections. I'm getting even. If I do get an objection. It's easy for me to help them overcome it because they have certainty. If I have prospects that are always uncertain, what objections am I going to get? I want to think it over, which is not an objection because it's not like they go and just think it over for three weeks straight. Right. Write down the positives and negatives.

[C]

What are they thinking about?

[B]

Yeah, that's just, that's just them saying that they just don't want to tell you what the real concern is. Right. Or let's say if you sell business to a consumer, talk to my spouse or I need to do more research, I need to get more quotes, I need to keep looking around, I need to compare prices. Like these are all the salesperson's fault for not understanding how to get the prospect to emotionally open up and go below the surface. When you learn how to do that, you know you can eliminate probably 50, 60, 60, 70% of the objections you even get. I'm more, when I was in sales, more like, hey, how do I prevent objections from happening in their mind? That's called objection prevention. You know, I'm more focused on that than objection handling because I'd rather not have objections. You know, when I hear sales trainers be like, oh, the more objections you get, the more interested they are. I'm like, what does that even mean? How does that make any sense? The more objections you get, the more likely they're interested. What that'll be. I don't understand. Because think about all the lay down sales you get. You got zero objections. So that doesn't make any sense. No, the more objections you get, the more uncertainty you triggered in their mind and less likely they are to buy. See, I want to prevent the objections from happening in their mind. That's what I'm all about.

[D]

That's amazing. And one of the things that you're 47 now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Old guy just turned 47.

[D]

You started sales when you were 21 years old.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

With everything that you know now, you know you've made, you know, eight plus figures in sales throughout your career. What if you could go back in time and teach yourself or give yourself a path to become successful in sales? What would that be?

[B]

I think if you're a new person looking into sales, I think, I think the best place for you to start is either door to door sales or cold calling or some type of SDR position. Because in those positions where the, let's see if you do door to door or cold calling, they don't know you're calling so there's a lot going on in their brain very, very quickly. And you have to learn how to react quickly, you have to learn how to be fast. Compared to starting like on an inbound lead where they book on your calendar and you meet them on Zoom or in person, everything slows down. So if I can learn, let's say if I start as an sdr, I'm just calling random people, put in their name and email phone number, and I start calling those leads. If I learn the right skills and, and I learn how to be really quick witted when they say something like, oh, not interested. And I know how to like reframe that real quick and then go back into the next question if I get really, really good at that. Or even on the doors, how to get them to let their guard down. Or cold calling companies. And then I get into a position which is more inbound and like more strategic, Everything slows down. It's like the Matrix because I went from door to door, you know, like selling to consumers. Like, everything's quick. You gotta be really fast on the doors, right? Or you're gonna get the door slammed in your face. To then get into enterprise where there was these huge corporations and I'm meeting with like seven or eight decision makers and it was like the Matrix. I swear, like, I went from like, you know, the scene in Matrix where the bullets are coming by, but he's like watching them, he's like going like this. When I got into B2B, when it was more inbound, I was like, oh, this is so easy. Like, it's so slow. Like people are like, you know, they'll say something and I have a lot of time to react and think about it, to help them overcome it. Compared to on the doors or cold calling. So I would always say cold calling door to door, or like some type of SDR position where you're just calling random leads. It's the best place to start.

[A]

Your last message to the younger generation, like, you gave us that blueprint out front. Could you give them kind of that blueprint that you gave us?

[B]

You got to acquire the right skills. So the biggest question, the number one question that salespeople ask me at every event that I'm at, I swear everybody asked me this. They're like, how do I gain more confidence in sales? How do I gain more confidence? Like, how do I get more confidence? I'm like, I'm like, huh? Like, you just acquire more skills. I don't understand. Like, if you want a high confidence level, you Got to have a high skill level, right? How could I have a high confidence level up here when my skill levels here, you can get pumped up, you know, during the day and be like, oh, I'm going to go out, you know, sell all this stuff. But as you don't make that many sales, where does your confidence level go back down to? To where your skill level is. So you want to hire higher, higher confidence level. You got to acquire a higher skill level. You have a higher skill level, you sell more, right? And when you sell more, how do you feel? Really good. More confidence, more motivated. You sell way less. You don't have that much confidence. So to me, you acquire higher skill level. Your confidence level goes where your skill level is. So younger generation, acquire the right skills with everybody. You do whatever you want to do and you'll have a higher confidence level. Nothing more, nothing less.

[A]

That was a master class.

[D]

Yeah, that was great.

[A]

That's a wrap on today's episode. Jeremy, thank you so much for having us out.

[C]

Thanks.

[B]

Hey, thanks for coming up to Scottsdale, man. Thanks for coming out Scott.

[A]

For, for everybody tuning in. Be sure to like and subscribe for amazing content coming very soon. Click the link in the description below to join the Hard Knocks newsletter. We're sending out weekly updates, insights and lessons from the world's top entrepreneurs and business owners. And Jeremy, for everybody tuned in right now, where can everybody find you just find.

[B]

Follow me on Instagram, you know, if you're on ig, follow my verified account, Jeremy Lee Minor. M I N E R M I N E R. Follow me there. We do, we do like 180 reels a month, you know, on IG, TikTok, you know, YouTube especially. So I'd probably follow me on Instagram and probably YouTube and then you get one of our best selling books, Wall Street Journal bestseller at barnes and noble.com. it's called the new model of selling, selling to an unsellable generation. I don't know if I have one around here, but you can get one of her books. But I just follow, man. On Instagram, YouTube.

[A]

Yeah, sounds good man. We'll see you guys in the next one.