Robert Croak | How the Sillybandz Founder Built a $100M Global Brand and Kept His Millions

Summary

School of Hard Knocks Podcast: Robert Croak | How the Sillybandz Founder Built a $100M Global Brand and Kept His Millions

Date: March 12, 2026
Host: The School of Hard Knocks (James, Jack, Josh)
Guest: Robert Croak, Founder of Sillybandz

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Episode Overview

This episode features Robert Croak, entrepreneur and creator of the iconic Sillybandz brand, sharing a masterclass on business building, scaling consumer products, wealth creation, and mindset. The hosts dive deep with Robert into the origin story of Sillybandz, lessons from spectacular successes and painful failures, and practical frameworks for building and protecting wealth. The conversation balances street-smart tactics, wisdom from hard-won experience, and sharp, often candid commentary on today's business landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sillybandz Origin Story & Meteoric Growth

• Initial Concept and Execution

  • Inspired by the popularity of Livestrong bracelets, Robert spotted shaped rubber bands at a show in China and envisioned scaling them into a tradable, wearable craze.

    "I saw it, I took a sample. I still have that sample today...And I was like, man, these would be so dope if they were bigger and thicker and could be worn as bracelets and tradable. And that's how it all started." (02:09 – Robert)

• Slow Start & Viral Expansion

  • The brand launched with just four styles, initially languishing until social media fueled a viral snowball effect.
  • Wild scaling challenges: from 17 to 3,200 employees, managing warehouses, hiring on the fly, and “never having it all figured out.”

    "Don’t worry about perfection, worry about iterating and speed. Because right now the Internet and trends move at the speed of sound." (10:34 – Robert)

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2. Scaling Logistics & The Reality of Viral Success

• Bootstrapping Infrastructure

  • Expansion meant buying buildings, negotiating with owners, literally ousting tenants, and responding to demand overnight.
  • Anecdote: Facebook hiring blitz with “Hello, my name is” stickers and police showing up due to the scale of warehouse activity. (05:00–06:40)

    "I literally just chose people by a handshake and a quick hello and hired people on the spot." (06:15 – Robert)

• Viral Marketing Levers

  • Right place, right time—post-recession, affordable joy for families.
  • Product was collectible, tradable, and accessible—“the original NFTs.”
  • "Entrepreneurs...they throw things at the wall, see what sticks. That’s one of the number one lessons: you have to get the at bats." (07:12 – Robert)

• Execution Over Perfection

  • Similarity to other “simple but well-executed” hits like Snuggie.

    "You don’t have to come up with this mind-blowing invention to make a hundred million dollars. If you understand marketing and know how to source products, iterate on something that exists that you think you can make better." (10:34 – Robert)

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3. On Product-Market Fit, Funding & Pivoting

• Product-Market Fit and Timing

  • Focus first on minimum viable product and early user feedback—don’t obsess over perfection.
  • Bootstrap or use small friends/family rounds before considering VC; be careful not to give away too much equity too early.

    "I actually sold one of my classic cars to pay for all the tooling. But I still, to this day...own 100% of Sillybandz, which is just incredible." (12:18 – Robert)

• Cautions on Over-Raising

  • “So many young entrepreneurs and founders just continually raise capital....They’re so far into raising all this capital without producing.” (15:19)
  • "I want a founder that's willing to be blood, sweat and tears, run up their credit cards, do whatever they have to do, sleep in the office to make it work. And if they don't have that drive and tenacity, you're probably going to fail." (15:10)

• Knowing When to Pivot or Cut Losses

  • Don’t let ego keep you anchored to a dying idea—consider opportunity cost.

    "It's just not a good recipe for success because you have to look at opportunity cost." (17:33)

  • "I have failed way more times than I've succeeded. But people only count the successes and all of the failures that I've had, generally laid the groundwork for me to be so good at what I do now." (18:01/50:28)

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4. Product Iteration: Risks & Best Practices

• Physical vs Tech Products

  • For physical/product-based businesses, be rigorous in quality and get real feedback but don’t be paralyzed by fear of missteps.

    "There is a lot more ways to test products now than ever before." (22:52–23:14)

  • Stay true to the brand’s standard; don’t compromise even if it slows launch.

• Building for Retail

  • Build a compelling story, audience, and proof of traction before pursuing retail distribution.

    "Build the story, build the audience. Find your tribe...retailers want to see a story. And retailers are generally always going to be late to the party..." (23:50–24:30)

  • Direct-to-consumer and platforms like TikTok Shops have lowered the barrier to entry.

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5. Team & Partnership: Hiring and Red Flags

• Character Assessment

  • Assess future partners/managers by experiencing how they act in informal, real-life situations (golf, dinner).

    "If their etiquette on the golf course is bad...they're generally going to be that way in life." (00:09/26:57)

• Hiring for Scale

  • When growing fast, prioritize attitude, resourcefulness, and culture-fit over resumes.
  • Never do business with people who don't treat everyone with respect—stories of walking away from investors due to these red flags.

    “Don’t do business with people that you wouldn’t sit around a bonfire with and have a good time with.” (27:54 – Robert)

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6. Handling Competition, Legal Battles & IP

• Walmart Copycat Story
  • Vital tip: Secure all iterations of your product and brand name (URLs, social handles) to block knock-offs.

    "I didn’t buy those URLs, and it was a multi, multi million dollar mistake. Over a hundred dollars." (29:48)

  • Walmart reverse-engineered Sillybandz, knocked them off after due diligence and attempted to hide behind legalities.
    • Legendary negotiation moment:

      "If you didn’t knock me off, why did you choose the same six animals I did for the rainforest pack? You had 47,000 options. You chose the same six." (32:44)

  • Consequence: Actively defend your IP, but also understand how this is even faster and more difficult in the e-commerce era.

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7. "What Industry Should Founders Avoid?"

• Vodka, energy drinks, cosmetics—high barrier to entry, saturated, hard to differentiate unless you have a truly unique product.
• Consumer products and some tech are the most efficient wealth builders today thanks to low cost of testing and scaling online.

  “You can launch a brand literally for $100 and test the market...now you can go on Shopify...and people still want to make excuses why they’re broke.” (35:53 – Robert)

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8. Money, Wealth, and “Rich Habits”

• $7 Latte Debate

  • Dismissing the idea that small, daily “luxury” expenses don’t matter; compound interest is a powerful wealth builder.

    "For every dollar you waste and you don't invest...that $1 for that latte, that day...can turn into $77 in retirement. Every dollar." (38:39)

• Three Essential Rich Habits

  1. Think like an investor, not a consumer—every dollar must have a job.
  2. Build your base (first $100K saved/invested) before chasing big risks.
  3. Only diversify into more complex investments once your foundation is strong.

  "Wealthy people forecast. Broke people react." (39:38) “If you can’t invest the same amount that day, don’t buy it.” (41:20)

• Avoiding Lifestyle Creep

  • The #1 reason people fail to build real wealth is upgrading lifestyle in lockstep with income.

    “The biggest dream killer...is because everyone lives beyond their means.” (51:41)

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9. Advice on Buying Businesses

• Strong warning against the current “buy a business” fad for average people.

  "Most people aren't really cut out to be entrepreneurs...I don't know a single rich person that owns a laundromat or a car wash." (44:18)

  • Most “passive income” businesses are not nearly as passive as advertised.

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10. Building and Preserving Wealth: Diversification

• Start with real estate and stock market, but also consider vetted venture investments; expect losses, hope for 1-2 home runs.
• Diversify further into precious metals, commodities, and growth sectors like energy, space, AI, blockchain.

  "The number one thing for younger entrepreneurs that are making really good money, get the money out of your hands as soon as possible and get diversified...so volatility does not scare you or put you in harm's way financially." (50:10–51:19)

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11. Handling Doubt, Critics, and Staying Persistent

• Family and friends may doubt you—don’t seek approval from those who haven’t walked your path.

  “You can’t take advice from people that aren’t going where you’re going.” (56:06)

  • Story: Taking his mom to Target to show Sillybandz display, finally making her a believer. (56:06–57:00)
  • People will misunderstand or mock until results are undeniable.

• On creating honest content:

  "If you look at my content today versus four years ago, it’s exactly the same. It’s tactical. I don’t fall for any of the trends..." (61:20)

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12. Celebration, Rewards, and Mindset

• It’s okay to celebrate milestones, but only after meeting investment and wealth goals (e.g., for every $100K invested, reward yourself with up to $10K on something fun).

  "You don’t want to be really rich and never have fun..." (63:09)

• Social commentary: Don’t waste all your time on sports/fantasy—track your own stats, not just those of million-dollar athletes.

  "Millions of adult males...know every stat about other men that are making millions of dollars—but they don’t know what a Roth IRA is..." (64:53)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Don’t do business with people that you wouldn’t sit around a bonfire with and have a good time with, because you will regret it down the road.” (27:54 – Robert Croak)
• “If you didn’t knock me off, why did you choose the same six animals I did for the rainforest pack? You had 47,000 options. You chose the same six. I’ll be in the lobby. I expect a settlement. You have 15 minutes.” (32:44 – Robert Croak, Walmart story)
• “Wealthy people forecast. Broke people react.” (39:38 – Robert Croak)
• “You are the only person on this earth that knows the path that you want to be on, and you need to stick to that path.” (59:16 – Robert Croak)
• “Follow your dreams, but you don’t have to be passionate about your dreams to make money...Don’t worry about following your dreams early. Worry about making money.” (69:58 – Robert Croak)

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Guidance for Listeners

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• [02:09] – Sillybandz inspiration and launch struggles
• [04:57] – Scaling up logistics and managing viral demand
• [12:18] – Bootstrapping vs. raising outside capital
• [17:33] – When to pivot or quit an idea
• [23:50] – How to break into retail the right way
• [29:48] – Walmart knock-off story and expensive lesson on brand/IP protection
• [38:39] – The $7 latte debate: Compound interest and habits
• [51:41] – The true cause of financial failure: lifestyle creep

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Closing Wisdom:

• Build your investing and business muscles through action, don’t be paralyzed by perfection or what others think.
• Defend your brand, your time, and your money—play offense, not just defense.
• Celebrate, but only after you’ve protected your future.

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Follow Robert Croak & The Rich Habits Podcast for more tactical, actionable financial literacy.

Transcript

[James]

Robert Croke, the founder of the global brand Silly Bands. You sold Silly Bands in how many stores?

[Robert Croak]

No idea.

[James]

Ten thousands?

[Robert Croak]

Oh, yeah, hundreds of thousands.

[James]

Yeah.

[Robert Croak]

You want to know if a partner is a good fit, if it's somebody that's going to be in a management role or a partner role. I always like to take them golfing and then to dinner because if their etiquette on the golf course is bad, they're generally going to be that way in life.

[Josh]

Everyone loves to talk about the seven dollar latte. Some people are like, go have your $7 latte. It's not going to make a difference. Or you should avoid it.

[Robert Croak]

For every dollar you waste and you don't invest in, let's say, your early 20s, you're 22 or 23 years old. That $1 can turn into dollars in retirement.

[Jack]

Some people may look at you and say, well, it's easy for you to launch a product and go into retail because you already have all the connections and you've done it before. But I'd imagine it didn't start out that way.

[Robert Croak]

I have failed way more times than I've succeeded. But people only count the successes in all of the failures that I've had. Generally laid the groundwork for me to be so, so good at what I do now.

[Josh]

And Robert, if tomorrow was all said and done, how would you want to be remembered?

[James]

What's going on, everyone? Welcome back to the School of Hard Knocks podcast. I'm James. I'm here with Jack and Josh, and we have a phenomenal guest for you all today. We are out in Tampa, Florida with Robert Croke, the founder of the global brand Silly Bands. But he's also not just a business builder. I mean, this guy is a wealth expert. Okay. I mean, we were talking before the podcast and I'm just like, so up all the knowledge and information that this guy has, man. So this is about to be a masterclass on all things business and wealth building. First of all, Robert, great to be here with you today, my friend.

[Robert Croak]

Thanks for coming. I appreciate you guys coming. I wish it was 80 and sunny like normal, but we'll get through it. It's a little chilly, but I was in New York yesterday and it is way better here for sure.

[James]

Absolutely. Where I want to get things started, man, is I want you to take us back to the moment when Silly Bands was just a weird idea. Right before the billions of bands, before the global craze. Right. What was it that, that you noticed that everyone else ignored? Right. Why did you trust your Instinct to move as fast as the way you did in building that company.

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, it started with, if everyone remembers, the Livestrong bracelets. Those were a big phenomenon back in like 2002, 3, 4. And we did really well with those because we were one of the biggest companies in the world that provided those for charities and other companies besides the Livestrong Foundation. So that was kind of dying off a little bit, but still doing pretty well. It was doing a few. Few million dollars a year. And then I was at a show in China and I was looking at these really small shaped rubber bands. I saw it, I took a sample. I still have that sample today. I don't know what it's worth. And. And I was like, man, these would be so dope if they were bigger and thicker and could be worn as bracelets and tradable. And that's how it all started, you know, and everyone always sees the success stories and they think it's just this meteoric rise to the top. And it was not that at all. We launched a website. We, you know, got up and running. We only had. We had four styles when we launched. That was it. And. And we launched and, you know, they collected dust for a while, you know, and it started to build a little momentum. That was back in the Facebook days when you could check the heat map on Facebook. And it started to go a little bit bigger, a little bit bigger. And then it tipped into retail on top of our website. And that was when life changed pretty dramatically. We went from 17 employees in the beginning of silly bands to over 3200 worldwide employees to keep up with the demand. And. And it was wild times because, you know, I remember when it first really started getting busy. I'm like, this is incredible. And at that time, we were doing like 200 cases a week. And I was like, this is really dope because inside each case was 576 packs of silly Bands. So it was a pretty big number. And one of the workers that worked in the shipping department, he came up to me and goes, at this pace right now, I calculate we're going to be at a thousand cases a week. And I'm like, there's no world. We're going to sell a thousand cases a week. And six months later, we were at like 3200 cases a week of volume, which doesn't sound like a lot to some people, but you have to remember there was 576 individual units in each case, and the rest is history. It went on to be in. I think we were in 45 countries, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars, and it was an incredible ride. And, you know, everyone always says, well, how did you handle it? You don't. So anyone out there that's building a brand, whether you're new or you're scaling right now, don't worry about making mistakes. Everyone leaves money on the table because it's easy for wealthy people that exit companies to say that it was all rainbows and unicorns when it happened, but it's just not true.

[Jack]

I'm just curious, like, how do you scale up that much infrastructure that fast? Because, I mean, you're going from okay, a couple cases to, to 20 cases to 100 cases. How do you scale logistically with just a business that's booming?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, I always tell the story two parts. Part number one is we ran out of space in my buildings. So I went to the building behind me and I said, hey, you have all this extra space. Can I rent this side of your warehouse? I need it. And they're like, yeah, when do you need it? And I'm like, today. Like literally as soon as possible. So we went through negotiations, we came to an agreement, and then the husband who was part of the team, it was a family owned business, he said, no, I don't want them in my building. So I was like, what am I going to do? It's right behind my current buildings. I need this building. So I went online, found out who owned the building, reached out to the guy, got a hold of him a day or two later. He's like, yeah, they're 10 months behind in their rent. If you want the building, make me an offer. I made him a cash offer. Three days later, I had the keys, I went in, I said, sorry folks, you've got 30 days to get out. And we started putting everything in that building. But there's a really crazy story and a lot of your audience might be too young, but Katie Couric reached out and her team and they wanted to interview me about this madness around silly bands. And it was one of the funniest days. And the police showed up and fire trucks showed up. We were so busy with all the buildings that I had someone go before we opened that day and buy a bunch of tables from Office Max, the white fold out tables. And we had, hello, my name is Stickers. And I did a Facebook post and said, we need 50 people show up at 8am we're going to be hiring today. And I walk through the line while the film crews were filming me. And I literally Just chose people by a handshake and a quick hello and hired people on the spot. And a few hours later, the police and fire trucks showed up because we had the whole alley filled with semis of Silly Bands going in and out, but also people picking and packing and building boxes outdoors because we had no more room.

[James]

I know that you mentioned that you had, Katy Curry had kind of did the interview with you. What was that, like, viral marketing lever that you had pulled early on that enabled Silly Brands to get that global traction so quickly? You know, like, was it a multitude of things? You know, like we interviewed recently Don Voltaggio, who's the founder of like the Arizona Iced Tea. And like, when I asked him, like, what was the number one growth lever, he said it was the packaging because it's at the eye level, everybody sees it. What was it for Silly Bands that enabled it to become a global phenomenon?

[Robert Croak]

I think the key in the beginning had nothing to do with me because entrepreneurs generally take a lot of risk and they throw things at the wall, as you say, and they see what sticks, you know. And that's one of the number one lessons any young entrepreneur can learn. You have to get the at bats. Everyone thinks they're going to try one idea and it fails. Then they go back to their 9 to 5 job. That's just not how big companies and wealth is built. So for me, I think it was right place, right time. Because when Silly Bands first really turned into profitable and starting to grow and become this big phenomenon was in 2010 was the biggest year and that was when the market was in a really bad place. So I think it was really great because parents could go out and spend $15 on a bunch of packs of Silly Bands and make their kids really happy, rather than spending $300 on a PlayStation or whatever was popular at that time. So I think it was right place, right time, pricing, and it was just different because there was nothing in the market right then that was collectible, tradable, but also affordable. And that's the cool thing. And that today, even now, is still a big part of Silly Bands sustainability as a brand. Because, you know, the people that were 10, 11, 12 back then are now in their 20s and they're showing their younger brothers and sisters how cool it is with Silly Bands. And like, even like two, three years ago, people were like, they were the original NFTs. And that's kind of a good, good way to look at it. So.

[James]

Yeah, but what fascinates me about this is that, you know, like you said, A family could go out and spend $15, get a couple packs of silly bands and it makes their children's day, right? And I asked, I asked you this in our last interview, which was that like when you take a company example, like the Snuggie, right, it's a blanket with sleeves on paper, you're like, what the hell is this thing? $100 million in sales.

[Robert Croak]

Yep.

[James]

Shaped rubber bands. It's not the craziest idea, but you executed it perfectly. Talk to us about the importance of that execution as the entrepreneur, beyond just having the most perfect idea.

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, this is probably one of the best questions anyone's ever asked. Because so many people get entrepreneurship wrong and they get wealth building wrong because of it. And that is they think they have to have the perfect machine, the perfect product, the perfect everything. And that's just not reasonable. And I think it's partially because we're conditioned. When you're interviewing billionaires and you're interviewing brand people that have exited for $100 million, they don't tell the blood, sweat and tears nearly enough. Because most ideas, in my opinion, you should get to market, you should iterate and you should see if there's good product market fit. I have to deal with this every single day in my regular job of helping other brands and companies and consulting because they want to fix everything first and they don't even know if anyone wants their product. And so I think the key is to really stay focused on getting out there, testing, you know, using, you know, social media to see what works and how it can scale and then fix it as you go. Because for anyone to think silly bands, we had it all figured out. I mean, I'm out there buying a building to fix a problem. Then we had to like hire 50 people a month just to try and keep up with things. So I think it's really important for people, don't worry about perfection, worry about iterating and speed. Because right now the Internet and trends move at the speed of sound. And when you talk about Snuggie, it's a prime example. They iterated on a product that has been around forever. You don't have to come up with this mind blowing invention to make a hundred million dollars. You really don't. If you understand marketing and you understand how to source products, iterate on something that exists that you think you can make better. I've got like eight products in the works right now that, that are so simple. But you'd think like, why didn't someone do that? It's the same with the Snuggie.

[Josh]

It's like, it doesn't have to be that complicated. Everybody is just like, man, how do I invent the next iPhone or whatever? It doesn't have to be that way. And I remember back when I was 9, 10 years old and the silly bands craze, and I love that you spoke to product market fit and the real timing of. And that was kind of the key to the viral moment. So many startups nowadays, they, they, you know, they fail because they try. They don't time the market. It's not. It doesn't meet in that time. What are some ways that, you know, since you guys were able to do that with silly bands and catch that traction for a lot of entrepreneurs out there that are trying to launch their product or their startup and they have this idea, how can they really hone in on, hey, how can they find product market fit and really time the market in the right way like you guys were able to do?

[Robert Croak]

I would say the most important part of that question is for people to understand, don't put the cart before the horse. I see so many founders now that want to go out and raise millions of dollars. They want to get a board of directors, they want to do all these things before they even have a product, bootstrap it, do a friends and family round, get to the market. I famously tell the story. I almost sold off a portion of Silly Bands when I was forming it because I was so busy with everything else. And a group, a local investment group, wanted to invest $250,000 in the idea of. I said, yes. We went to paperwork. Then they said, well, we're going to do a hundred thousand and test it out. Then they went back to 50,000. And I was like, for $50,000, I'll do it myself. And thank God I did that because I bootstrapped it. I actually sold one of my classic cars to pay for all the tooling. But I still, to this day, as we speak in film, own 100 of silly bands, which is just incredible because I could have easily sold them 20% of it for a hundred thousand dollars. Not had to come out of pocket at all. But I like to bootstrap because the worst thing you want to do is lose investors money, but you also don't want to raise so much capital that you don't have any tenacity to really make it work. I see founders all the time. They're getting paid 10, $20,000 a month through investor capital. They're out living the life because they don't have any hunger or fear.

[Jack]

We say the most. The thing that we question the most is there's people that just keep raising money.

[James]

This is a perfect person to ask because. Because you're invested in a lot of venture, you give a lot of money to these people. We for the life cannot understand. Right. We live in Austin. It's a big tech city. There's all these people just raising millions of dollars. They have no revenue.

[Robert Croak]

Right? Right.

[James]

There's no business.

[Jack]

They've been the ideation and building. And I'm like, building? You've been building for eight years and you're just still raising money. You haven't sold a single thing. And I'm like, what's going on?

[James]

What is that about?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, I'm going to tell you a story and then I'm going to cover that. So I helped a guy that worked for me. He had a really good idea and it was an app for the sports industry. I'm not going to name names. And he wanted to raise capital. I put in the seed round and I was like, we'll get up and running. And then because of me, we brought in a huge, huge name, multi billionaire person. He's like, if Robert croaks in, I'm in. I trust that guy. So we get up and running, we're starting to build it, we hire some staff, and I'll never forget it as long as I live. The first time I visited the new office, I came in and I'm like, what the hell is going on? There's all new desks, all new computers, gaming chairs, all this stuff. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are we doing here? This is not how you build a company. I'm all about, I want to walk into a startup and see Ikea white tables with regular basic chairs, everyone on their laptops. We don't need a $10,000 coffee machine, all that stuff. So that happened with me. The second time I visited our office. He wasn't there. So I'm like, wait a second, where is he? So I asked a couple of the employees and they're like, oh, he's. He's almost never here. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, he's either walking the dog or skiing or biking or something like that. And so I see it all the time. And the number one rule in venture investing or investing in startups in general is you need to bet on the jockey, whoever the quarterback is. That's what you're betting on. You're not betting on the idea as much. You're hoping the idea is really sound and you're hoping, but really good founders will figure it out even if they have to pivot multiple times. But you're right, there is a world now because it's so easy to raise capital that so many young entrepreneurs and founders just continually raise capital. Like you said, seven years, eight years, I see it all the time. And I'm just like, they're so far into, you know, raising all this capital without producing yet they can really build maybe a good deck, or maybe they're good at meetings or really good at zoom calls. But at the end of the day, you want to bet on a quarterback that can figure it out. And that's why first time starters that are entrepreneurs, it's their first startup. I generally pass on if they don't have a track record because they're never going to look at the money as being as important as, as it is to me. And so many founders are like, yeah, I want to make 20 grand a month right out of the gate as part of the deal, the compensation package. I walk away because I want a founder that's willing to be blood, sweat and tears, run up their credit cards, do whatever they have to do, sleep in the office to make it work. And if they don't have that drive and tenacity, you're probably going to fail.

[James]

Hey, what's going on, guys? We're going to be right back to this episode with business mogul Robert Croak in just a second, but I wanted to make an announcement to remind you that if you are currently not subscribed to to the Hard Knocks podcast. Take a second and do it right now. Because every week we're bringing the biggest and most incredible business moguls in the world directly to you here on the Hard Knocks podcast. And make sure to share this podcast with a friend so that way they don't miss out on the free game that you're about to get in this episode. With that being said, let's get back to the episode.

[Josh]

So when we were starting Hard Knocks and one of the key points of what you just said was pivoting that a lot of successful startup founders, like, if you're, if you bet on the right jockey, they will pivot and figure it out with their stuff. When we started Hard Knocks, we didn't start doing interviews originally. It was the three of us young guys in our 20s making content about business. And we were like, guys, we gotta pivot. Nobody's gonna Take this seriously. So we started talking to other people. And sometimes a lot of these founders, they get so bought into an idea that they just keep trying to let it ride. Let it ride. And you hear the term never give up. But sometimes you gotta take that idea behind the barn and shoot it and try again. And so at what point for an entrepreneur could they learn, like, hey, this is how I could learn to pivot effectively? And when do I need to change course before I roll myself into the ground?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, great question. So many entrepreneurs and business owners will ride something for years when it's losing. They'll keep raising money, they'll keep going further into debt, they'll leverage their house. And that is just not. You have to really look. It's just not a good recipe for success because you have to look at opportunity cost. It's just like when people buy a stock on a tip from Uncle Bill at the barbershop and the Stock goes down 70% and they're like, oh, I'm going to ride it till it's back up. Guess what? It's probably not coming back up. You know, people don't cut their losses soon enough, especially younger entrepreneurs, and then they end up going, oh, shit, I just wasted eight years of my life on this business. I didn't get anywhere. Now I have to start over. So I think it is a critical point that everyone needs to sit down and have the hard conversation with themselves, their team, their wife, whatever it may be, and say, okay, we tried this. We've dumped everything into it. It didn't work. How can we salvage anything from this business and move on to the next idea? And I think it's that self realization. I say it openly in our first interview. I have failed way more times than I've succeeded. But people only count the successes and all of the failures that I've had, generally laid the groundwork for me to be so good at what I do now. And that's the biggest thing and lesson I try to teach entrepreneurs is understand there's going to be failure. But if you're willing to learn from it and pivot, you will eventually succeed.

[James]

We just recently did a podcast with Daniel Lubecki, who's the founder of Kinebar, which you guys would have a fascinating conversation. I need to connect you guys to do a podcast because I think you'd really like him, but I wanted to go back to this idea of, like, the product iteration, and we were talking about it on the podcast with him that with Kind Bar in the Food and Beverage industry there. It's really hard to test a product to the public, like if you excuse my language, but if you fuck up like a food and beverage product to the public, it's hard to kind of recover from that. Whereas he talks about in the tech industry, like Meta Instagram, they can test a feature and if it doesn't hit, if it doesn't work, people hate it, they can kill it. In your business, right? Like the, the product business for silly bands, for example, we how. Where's kind of like the fine line between, like if you were to kind of test a, you know, a feature or type of product and it didn't hit, I'm curious to kind of get your take on that and your line of business that you were in.

[Robert Croak]

Well, here's a prime example. I have a product that I'm not going to name on the podcast, but we got our production order, our first production order, and we're going to go live here in the next couple of weeks. And I wasn't happy with the end result of the box quite quality and the print. Now I could have easily said, all right, it's only a thousand units, let's send it to market. 100 of those units are going to go to influencers that are going to, you know, do videos for us. So it's okay. But I didn't do that. I, I rejected it, sent it back to the factory. I said, you have to give me the box at the quality and the level we expected and at what the sample was. And sometimes you can't avoid mistakes and you can't avoid, you don't have the ability to test like you alluded to. You know, if you're in the snack bar, protein bar world, you know, it's very difficult to test and see what works. And that's why so many people. It's really weird that we live in a world we all want to eat healthy, but yet so many of the big brands you see out there that are popular and talked about on social media, the founders lost their way and don't really care about the quality and they end up just white labeling through some big co packer or whatever. And I think the key is build something. If you're in the health industry or the food industry or makeup industry or whatever it is, build something that is different and high quality, that aligns with your message and what you want for the company and stick to it. We see it all the time where a company makes a big wave. They get Talked about in $100 million world and then all of a sudden they sell off to somebody like a Coca Cola or Nabisco or whatever and then all the ingredients that they buil platform on and the brand on they go away and it just becomes another crappy product. So I think it's all about don't build a brand just to make money. Build a brand because it's meaningful to you and you're filling a need in the market no matter what sector it is, and stay true to the goal. Because so many people are worried about the profitability first it should be figuring out does this, do people want this product? Because everybody that comes up with a product idea, they go to their family and say, what do you think? Isn't it great? The family always tells them it is. They spend their life savings on it and find out that nobody else cares. And that's a huge mistake. We could spend hours on that one. But I think it's just really important to try to get to market, see what works, get a broader audience to look, test and taste the product and then go from there of what to do next. Because you're right with tech, you can iterate all day long and just bury something that didn't work. I mean, let's look at Apple. Apple's really struggling from a design and development perspective for years now. And they have this big war chest of money, but they'll spend hundreds of millions of dollars on something and then abandon it if they're too far behind the race or if they, if they couldn't get the product figured out. So I think it's best to just always bootstrap, figure it out and test with a broader audience. We live in a world now where we can put out a wait list for a thousand people, send them the product, there are seed people and see if they really like it, the quality, what their feedback is, and then go to the broader market. So there is a lot more ways to test products now than ever before.

[Jack]

You've had your success with silly bands and now you're launching more product products now. And I feel like some people may look at you and say, well, it's easy for you to launch a product and go into retail because you already have all the connections and you've done it before. But I'd imagine it didn't start out that way. You didn't have any retail connections, you weren't able to get into stores so easily. For someone who's watching this, whether they have a food and beverage brand or a physical product brand, how can they go about building Relationships with physical locations and retail centers to actually put their products and get that initial test in.

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, great question. First and foremost, build the story first. So many people get a product done, they get it on their shelves, they have no sales, they have no story, they have nothing to show for the product, and they immediately want to go to retail. So they'll go to a product show for food or beverage or whatever it is, spend $10,000, get a booth, do all that and nothing happens. Don't do that. Build the story, build the audience. Find your tribe with that product, even if it's only a thousand people. And then once you have that built, retailers want to see a story. And retailers are generally always going to be late to the party when it comes to a product with silly Bands. We had to tell retailers no because we couldn't keep up. We were scaling so fast and we had a dozen people just working on retail integration around the world, and it still wasn't enough. We didn't have to go out and beat the streets. But here's the funny story. Once silly bands died off, even after hundreds of millions in sales and billions of silly bands being out on the market, when I would go back to that same retailer with the next product, they'd be like, well, I don't really see it. I'm not sure, Robert, if this is a good fit for us. And I'm like, well, did you see silly bands coming either? You took a chance on silly Bands because we already had the story built and the viral nature of silly bands was already out there, so it was a lot easier. So for newer founders, don't worry about retail as much. Worry about direct to consumer. TikTok shops is huge. All of those things that cost you no money. Because where people get it wrong with retail, for people that have brands, they don't realize you have all the insurances, you have all of the. The different applications, you have to have all of these different things. And on top of it, the contractual agreement you're going to sign with a retailer, if you don't sell two units per store per week in Target, they're going to send the product back. Then you have 15, 20, 50,000 units that get sent back. You have to pay for it to come back. Then you have to find a way to resell it. So I think the answer for you is people should not focus on retail. Build the story, build the brand, build the online presence, because retail will come.

[Josh]

You mentioned that you went from 17 to over 3200 employees at silly Bands and When you actually came and did a community call with us for our School of Hard Knocks community, I remember you were saying like when you do business with somebody and even maybe for people that you hire, when you go to dinner with them, if they talk bad about their spouse or somebody that they've done business with, you ought to like, I don't want to do business with this person, I don't want to hire them. And I've actually taken that. You know, our team, we last year we went from 12 to over 60 people at school of Hard Knocks. And for me, when I'm doing my final job interviews, I think about, well, if this person in the middle of the job interview starts talking bad about a previous employer, I'm like, that's a red flag to me. And so I wanted to take that to heart. But my kind of two part question is like, you know, where did you kind of learn to approach business like that? And two, what is your best advice for hiring people since you were able to go from 17 to 3200 for entrepreneurs that are looking to scale their team?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah. So you're talking about the story where I tell people, if you want to know if a partner is a good fit or an important hire is a good fit, this doesn't count for like everyday people that you're hiring. But if it's somebody that's going to be in a management role or a partner role, I always like to take them golfing and then to dinner because if their etiquette on the golf course is bad, they improve their lie. They don't stay in turn when you're at the tee box or just in general, let's say they just get really drunk on the golf course. They're generally going to be that way in life. And especially if you take them out to a nice dinner afterwards, how they treat the servers, how they treat the valet person, all of those things are a window into your future if you do business with them. And so I just absolutely try to do it as much as possible. I remember, and it's a really fun story. Shout out Dan Fleischman. We were raising capital for a project and this guy walks in and there was, I think eight of us in this dinner. And this guy started talking like 10 minutes in. I had a weird vibe about him and then he just started badmouthing his wife because she dinged a rim on their Mercedes. And he just went on and on about it. So I texted Dan under the table during the meeting. I said, hey, I'm going to Excuse this guy. I can't take his money and I don't want him on our cap table. And Dan was like, lol, go for it. And so I literally, we finished the dinner and I walked up to the guy and I said, hey man, thanks for coming out. Not going to accept your money today. Appreciate you stopping by, but this isn't a good fit for me. And so he got very upset about it. He was like, why? This is ridiculous. Why would you not take my check? I just don't ever want to do business and I want all of you to feel the same way. Don't do business with people that you wouldn't sit around a bonfire with and have a good time with because you will regret it down the road.

[Josh]

I love that. That's great advice.

[James]

That's a powerful story right there. Happy to go back to team. I wanted to shift slightly to talking about, you got, you sold Silly Bands in how many stores? How many stores would you say roughly?

[Robert Croak]

No idea.

[James]

Ten thousands?

[Robert Croak]

Oh, yeah. Hundreds of thousands because we had every 7, 11, every speedway, every target, every Walmart, every. I don't, I really don't even know that number anymore.

[James]

So. You know, another gentleman that I had the pleasure of interviewing out in Boston was actually the founder of whoop, which

[Robert Croak]

is this right here.

[James]

They just got a four billion dollar valuation. And one of the things he mentioned in our interview, you know, when I asked him about, you know, were you ever afraid of competition? And he talked about how, you know, big companies like Amazon started to copy his exact product. And with Silly Bands, you had some of the stores that you were in try and copy you. One of those was Walmart. Can you tell us the story about when you were in the boardroom with Walmart, man? Can you tell us the story?

[Robert Croak]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[James]

So can you talk about it?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah.

[James]

Okay.

[Robert Croak]

Okay. So the biggest mistake, and for anyone building a brand or researching a brand, spend this $100 because it'll be the best $100 you've ever spent. When we finalized the name of Silly Bands, and that was the, the brand we were going with, we got our social media handles, you know, taken care of. We made sure we had the URLs, all of that in the cart for buying the URLs. I had zany bands, crazy bands, and every other iteration of the name we wanted. And we that made it to the finals. I didn't buy those URLs, and it was a multi, multi million dollar mistake. Over a hundred dollars. So I tell everyone right now, building A brand if it's a very defined style of name, like Silly Bands with a Z was by every other iteration of the name. And save the socials as well.

[James]

This is game right here.

[Robert Croak]

Because I'll tell you what you're going to spend. I mean, right now to save a URL for a year is like $11. You go buy every iteration of the ones that are close because then what that does, it locks out the knockoff companies from being able to sound like you and be able to mimic your branding to be able to gain traction. Because somebody might not know the difference between a silly band and a crazy band. So I made that mistake with silly Bands. But then fast forward after it slowed down, after everything happened, we had lawsuits everywhere and Walmart was one of them. Walmart spent a long time. So everyone listening, don't go to Walmart first, because it's where brands go to die. Sorry, Walmart, but it's the truth. You have to really be careful. And so the Walmart story is they met with us, they flew in, they had to tour our factories, they did all of it, they did all their due diligence. Then they went dark on the negotiations after we were finished. Couldn't figure it out. And then like two months later, I'd forgotten about it. And someone was like, hey, they took a picture from Walmart and they had. I forget what it was. It was called Zany bands, I think, or crazy bands. And they had them everywhere in every store. So they basically used us to figure it all out. Then they hired a distributor to knock us off and go into the stores. So the legendary story was we went through all this negotiation, we go to a mediation, and Walmart walks in. They've got like eight powerful lawyers. I brought my one dipshit lawyer. That was terrible. And he got fired. After the meeting, we rode together. So it was a very silent drive back to. Back to Toledo, Ohio. But I sat there for two and a half hours letting the lawyers do their thing. And I. And we took a break. I said, you are getting your teeth absolutely kicked in. I thought you were supposed to be this specialist at trademark law and all this stuff. So I said, I'm taking over. So we go back in, we sit down and I look at them, and I made this up on the fly. And it is one of the coolest moments of my career. I went back in, I'm looking at all of them. So I'm at this giant conference table and they're all sitting there, all these Ivy League lawyers. I said, I Want to ask you guys a question. Just, just simple, just bear with me here. I said, how many animals are indigenous to the rainforests in the world? They're like, oh, God, I don't know. I have no idea. And I'm like, no, just take a guess. Oh, I don't know, a thousand, five thousand, whatever. I go, 47,000 different creatures live in the rainforest. They're like, wow, fascinating, Mr. Croak. What does that have to do with this case? I go, well, if you didn't knock me off, why did you choose the same six animals I did for the rainforest pack? I go, you had 47,000 options. You chose the same six. I go, I'll be in the lobby. I set my mic down. I go, I expect a settlement. You have 15 minutes. And I walked out. They were. You've never seen Silence. I get goosebumps just talking about. Never seen six people that had nothing to say and they're all lawyers. And I walked out, I waited in the lobby. Fifteen minutes later, we had a settlement and I left and I fired the lawyer in the elevator.

[James]

What was that conversation in the elevator?

[Robert Croak]

I just told him, I said, you got your, you got your hands. I said, you got your ass handed to you. And yeah, so I never, never spoke, spoke to him again.

[James]

It's the power of being willing to walk away, though, which is what you did.

[Robert Croak]

I was, I was willing to walk away because I knew they knocked me off. They knew they knocked me off, and they were hiding behind the law and them being able to hide behind the distributor and make this distributor take all of the risk in this indemnification they had with the distributor. And so for me, I don't know where that story came from. I don't know how I concocted in the matter of three minutes on a break, but it worked perfectly and it made sense mathematically. They did not have an answer. And I just walked out.

[Josh]

It's because you knew it. You just knew. You're like, it's that just that die hard entrepreneur just love for their own company. And you see it and you're just like, like there's something that you're just, man, I can't believe these other efforts ripped me off.

[Robert Croak]

Man, imagine that scene in a movie people would lose. That's some old school Wall street, the first movie stuff with Michael Douglas. But yeah, so that's a, a fun story about dealing with knockoffs because it's never fun. And, and it's worse now because, you know, back in 2010, 11, 12 you didn't have tens of thousands of people that knew what Alibaba was and knew how to launch products. I mean, think about it right now. People talk about, well, it's difficult to launch a company. You have it made because you're already rich. It's so easy now. You can launch a brand literally for $100 and test the market. Yet people want to use excuses. I tell the story all the time. When we launched custom silicone bracelets, this is long before Shopify and WordPress and all that to build a shopping cart for your website. Back in 2003, 4 was like $15,000. Now you can go on Shopify with a free trial and have a website through AI up in 10 minutes and people still want to make excuses why they're broke.

[Jack]

You can start a brand with $100, but what's a brand that people should not go into? Is it physical products? Is it, you know, certain types of consumer goods? Like what are, what's a product? You would tell like a first time founder or someone who's looking to get into the product game. You're like, hey, there's just so many trials and tribulations with this. Just stay away from it.

[Robert Croak]

I would say vodka, energy drinks and cosmetics. Unless you're gonna build a cosmetic product that truly is different. The one we're getting ready to launch in the next month is gonna blow the world's minds because I told the company that I'm working with my partners. I can't put my name or my might or my money behind something if it truly doesn't work and make a difference. So I think consumer products are in my opinion, the best way or tech to build real wealth. We all talk about real estate, we all own real estate. I love real estate, so don't come for me. I'm very heavily invested in real estate. But real estate is a slow game for younger entrepreneurs that understand the Internet and AI and marketing. I think consumer products are an incredible way to make fast wealth because it doesn't take hundreds of thousands of dollars of money upfront. You don't have to go raise a bunch of capital. You know, if I want to go buy an apartment building and I'm kind of shocked that Grant Cardone said this recently. Even I think it was like a couple of weeks ago. He said the first place people should start in real estate is buy a 32 unit apartment building. That's horrible advice. How's the average person has never bought real estate going to raise the capital, understand the numbers and be Able to buy a 32 unit building and start out in real estate. Terrible advice. And so I think it's all about real estate is great and everyone should be building real estate in their portfolio later. But if they want to try a consumer product, think about tick tock shop. Right now. I know people making six figures a month selling some product that they white labeled on TikTok shop with no overhead. They have a ring light, a phone and tick tock and they're up and running.

[Josh]

Robert I feel like in the finance habit space and just the financial literacy space, everyone loves to talk about the $7 latte. That's a big debate. Some people are like, hey, you know, for the seven, you know, go have your $7 latte, it's not going to make a difference. Or, you know, you should avoid it. What are, you know, I'd love for you to talk about the latte phenomenon, but what are three rich habits? Since you're on the Rich habits podcast, what are three rich habits that the everyday entrepreneur and wealth builder should be incorporating into their lives?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, the latte. So a lot of the fake gurus that you all know who you are that talk about the latte and the avocado toast and say it doesn't matter, go have the latte every day. Go have the avocado toast every day. They just don't understand what compound interest can do for younger people. And so there is a, a number that I put out there and you can fact check it. Anyone out there that wants to fact check it for every dollar you waste and you don't invest in, let's say your early 20s, you're 22 or 23 years old, that $1 for that latte that day. So let's say it's $7 that day. Every dollar can turn into $77 in retirement. Every dollar. So for that one beer you don't drink, that's $6. That $6 invested would turn into hundreds of dollars in retirement. So I call bull on all of these people because they don't understand that most people little lakes sink ships. And so most people go about their day. In the morning they get a seven dollar coffee and they get a muffin. Then at lunch they go get a red bull or two and they get their $16 lunch and they do this for 30 years and they wonder where all their money went. And so that's why people get wealthy so backwards. They think that all the rich people out there just spend money like it's nothing and it's actually the Opposite. We always say in the Rich Habits podcast, wealthy people forecast broke, people react. And I think it is one of the best things everyone can learn because they always get it backwards. And they think wealthy people don't budget. Wealthy people are avid budgeters. They put all investments on automation as much as possible. They make sure they have a budget so they know what they're doing. And most importantly, sorry, Dave Ramsey, they use other people's money. That's the thing that people get so wrong. If you can't pay cash for it, don't own it. You shouldn't pay cash for anything, in my opinion. Because if I can borrow money for 4 or 5%, even 6%, and I can make 12 or 15% in other investments or in the markets, why would I not use other people's money for everything? That's why the wealthiest people on earth people don't understand. They have mortgages on their homes, they have, they have loans on their yachts and their planes. They don't pay cash unless they need a write off because of the fact that you always want to have the positive arbitrage of your money going into your pocket. So to condense that down, what would be the three rich habits? I would say, number one is you have to start thinking like an investor and not a consumer. First and foremost, most people, they get their paycheck, it goes into their bank account, it sits there. They may do a little something with a high yield savings account, but most of the time their money is sitting. Every dollar you have should have a job, it should be doing something. People laugh at me because they'll be like, show me your bank accounts, I'll show them. And there's rarely, hardly ever any money in my portfolio bank accounts because it's all either automated or it has a place. So I would say number one would be thinking like an investor and not a consumer. And the challenge I give to a lot of people that are just starting out every time you want to go buy the new Nikes or you want to buy the new Hokas or a new iPhone, if you can't invest the same amount that day, don't buy it. Because I need to get people to start thinking like an investor. Because you can literally, again, this is where everyone gets it wrong. You can start with $100, $200 a month and still become a multimillionaire in 30 years. You absolutely can if you run the numbers. And so it's just getting people to start that is my number one goal in life, is getting everyone out there. To stop blowing their money every week, living beyond their means, and buying crap they don't need, and get started. So mindset is first. Getting started is second. One of the things we talk about on the Rich Habits podcast a lot is building your base. Building before you go buy a real estate project, before you go invest in anything crazy, build your base and get that first $100,000 saved and invested and invested in the simple things. The s and P500, the NASDAQ, maybe an international fund, maybe a bond fund. Get your base built. So if you have $100,000 and it's making you money, it might only make you 9, 10, 12% a year. But at least you know you're never going to wake up and be broke because you have that set aside. Then you can start diversifying into other types of investments and other things. Most people get it backwards. They save 30 grand, then their buddy says, hey, I'm going to go flip this house. They're going, oh, I'm in. They give them the 30 grand, they lose money, they're starting over. Then they have to spend a year and a half to save the 30 grand again. And then they do this vicious cycle till they're 40 some years old and finally start investing like a pro. So I would say that would be number two, and then number three would be get the base built, then diversify. Don't do the opposite because too many people, their buddy wants to open a food truck or they're going to go do this and that, build the base so you're making money while you sleep, and then you'll never have to worry about going broke.

[Jack]

There's a phenomenon within, like, the business space where I feel like there's people who are established entrepreneurs that are telling the average person to go buy a business. Me personally, I think it's terrible advice for the average person. The reason I say that is because even if you're buying a franchise, you are technically buying a system. But most people aren't really cut out to be entrepreneurs. I think it'd be better off for people to be just more traditional investments or maybe more passive investments. Another way, I'm kind of just curious for you, if you, when you hear that advice and you and other people telling, you know, just the average person to go buy a business per se, which I feel like is very common right now, what do you think about that?

[Robert Croak]

I think it's terrible advice because we hear it all the time. I'm not going to mention names, but you hear the same list of businesses because they're selling a course on how to buy small businesses. That's why they're going to push that. The average person that has never run a business may have a great job. Maybe they're an engineer or maybe they're doing something. They're making 100, $150,000 a year. Soon as they get a little money, they're like, well, I'm going to listen to XYZ and I'm going to go buy a Laundromat. Because that's what all the rich people do. I don't know a single rich person that owns a Laundromat or a car wash. Car washes maybe a little bit better, but they all push the same narrative. I own a lot of small businesses around the country and I've been in every type of business. And I promise you, billionaires and people worth 50 million and above do not own car washes and laundromats. I would say people would be better off. Once they build their base, they've got that first hundred or two hundred thousand dollars invested the old fashioned way. So there's a famous quote from Warren Buffett. So I'm going to give him a shout out here on this. And a reporter asked him, and this was just recent, a couple years ago, Warren, why don't more people follow your advice in investing? And he said, because no one wants to get rich slow. And I love that because I think it's both. I'm an entrepreneur. When I started, I threw my hat in every ring. I went broke a million times because I was going to figure it out. But you don't have to do that now. You can invest in all these cool tools. You know, somebody right now can go to public.com, open an account, get their Roth IRA set up, invest $100 a month, $100 a week in Vooqq and maybe Bitcoin. And just they're up, they're up and running. They're, they're in the race, they're in the game. But when people tell people to go buy these small businesses, they have no clue what they're doing. And they always say, and this is the worst part of the advice for everyone listening, they always say it's passive. Well, you've got your job. Go buy this. It's passive. Guess what? When someone forgets to lock the door at night, that's not passive. Because you're going to get up in the middle of the night and go lock the door, you're going to get robbed. When the washing machine Brokes. If you don't have infrastructure and you don't have a handyman to go fix it, you're going to go fix the machine or figure it out and you're going to be on YouTube a long time trying to figure it out. I don't like to see people start out buying businesses. I'd rather them invest if they're going to invest in businesses, in established founders that already own businesses every single day. A lot of people want to give me money because I have a success rate. So if I'm doing a new project, I have a lot of high net worth people. Whatever you're building, I want in on because they trust that it's going to work. So for people that are out there in the influencer world, in the, in the business space, telling people to go buy all these businesses, I would just like for them to really come out from behind the paywall of selling them a course of how to buy a business and say, okay, here are the actual bad things of what happens in a business. I own a pizza store in Parrish, Florida. It was going fantastically well and we got hit by two hurricanes a year and a half ago. So we had to close down for two months. We had to renovate, we had to replace all the drywall, all the flooring, all the toilets, everything. They don't talk about that. They just say, buy my course, go buy a laundromat and you're going to get rich. And it's just not the, the truth. So I agree with you 100%.

[James]

Prior to the podcast, one of the things that, you know, we were talking about it and I asked you was, you know, the three of us, business wise, have been doing great recently and you know, are kind of in that mindset of man, like you're talking about getting every dollar needs to have a job for you. How do you preserve that wealth? You know, we've been buying real estate actively over the last year, investing in the stock market individually. But we're like, man, I, I wanted to ask you is like what, what are some other avenues or things? How would you kind of be diversifying if you were us? And one of the things that you mentioned was doing is taking a shot and taking a chance at investing in some of those companies that do have the potential to, you know, 100x right. Kind of like the, the, the VC model, for example, right?

[Robert Croak]

Yep.

[James]

And I wanted to get your perspective right because it's not just you, but the most successful guys that are running VC companies and that have hit on very successful companies. They'll say that, hey, if you take 10 companies, invest in them, you got to be willing to know that the majority of them are going to fail.

[Robert Croak]

Yep.

[James]

But it's that one, maybe two companies out of that batch of 10 that's going to really hit. What do you see typically in those companies that consistently, every single time is the reason why those one or two companies hit on a consistent basis?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, it's a great question and it's really difficult to pinpoint. You know, I say you have to bet on the quarterback who's running it, but also their track record in most cases. A lot of these companies that go on to be unicorns do have a track record and it might be failure and it might be other exits. But it's understanding. Let's back up a little bit. It's understanding that if you're going to invest in venture in these pre IPO private placement deals, you have to look at it that if you do 10 investments, five or six of them are probably going to go to zero. Two of them are probably going to do pretty well. And then you're looking for that one or two that really 100x is your money and that's what you want to work towards. Because no one gets it right every time. It's just not possible. Some of the most gifted people that are out there, people you've interviewed, I mean, like, let's face it, ashton Kutcher, the former 70s, you know, actor from the 70s show, is one of the most gifted venture people I know and he's done really, really well picking the jockeys, picking the quarterbacks. So I think as long as people understand and for you guys at your age and the fact that you have cash and you have this dry powder to deploy, you should just be diversified. Like I said earlier, you should be looking at where is the puck going right now? It's going to energy, it's going to space. Data centers in space is not a dystopian dream anymore. It's a reality.

[Josh]

It's.

[Robert Croak]

It is, you know, the blockchain is still going to be a big, big thing. It's AI. All of these things are where you should be deploying some of your money, but also precious metals. I've been pounding on the table for years telling people, please, please put some money in gold, silver and copper. Now, gold, silver and copper have been up just hundreds of percent in the last year and a half, two years. So I think it's just understanding diversity and making sure you possess it Because a lot of people, we go back to 2009, they were all in on real estate. 2008, 9 and 10. And they went from having their Bentleys and their Rolls Royces and all their fancy stuff to then trying to borrow money from me because I'm never going to be all in on one sector because I don't ever want to get wrecked. And so I think the number one thing for younger entrepreneurs that are making really good money, get the money out of your hands as soon as possible and get diversified in all of these sectors so you make sure you have coverage in a down market. Like what we're seeing today in the last few weeks while we're filming this is there's a lot of volatility, and you want to make sure your money is in a place where volatility does not scare you or put you in harm's way financially.

[Josh]

You know, a lot of these things, at least they seem simple. Like, it's just like, hey, save your money. Invest. To invest it. Every dollar that's not being used, it needs to have a job. Why do you think so many young people and investors and even people that aren't young that are. Because it's probably even that demographic as well. Why do you think that? What are they missing? What do they not understand?

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, the biggest dream killer in the world, especially in the United States, is because everyone lives beyond their means. Everyone. I don't remember the stat off the top of my head, but we looked it up a few weeks back that the average household that makes over $100,000 a year right now, I think it was like 57 or 67% of them live paycheck to paycheck because it's a vicious cycle and everyone listening. This is probably the most important thing you can remember from this episode is if you let lifestyle creep continually getting in the way of your ability to succeed and build wealth. You'll never build wealth. And so many people do it as soon as they get a raise or a bonus. They buy a nicer watch, they buy nicer clothes, they buy a nicer car. Then when they make a little more money, they upgrade the apartment to a nicer apartment or a different house. They continually upgrade their lifestyle, and they never, ever take the time to set aside 15 or 20% of their money that they don't touch that gets invested for their future. And then they always use the excuse, well, it just costs so much. This neighborhood, the school district, this is expensive. It's all your fault. It's the person's fault because if you don't ever put the brakes on your spending to set yourself up for the future, you'll never have a future of being financially free. You just won't. And a lot of the people we see on a daily basis on the Internet are exactly that. You look at them and they have a more expensive watch than me. They have nicer cars than me. I have nice cars, but nicer cars than me. They live so far behind their means and when their course business dries up or their roofing business slows down or AI takes over one of their businesses, they don't have the millions of dollars of money put away for the future to be able to withstand that down period in their careers. And I think that's the biggest thing is lifestyle creep because we live in a comparison based world now. People see the highlights of everyone on Instagram and TikTok and they're like, I want to live like that. And they don't realize that half of these people, like, I know an influencer right now, that everyone listening and I'm not going to call him out that rents an Airbnb to shoot his content and rents a Lamborghini for, for the week to shoot his content, goes and shoots it all, makes the Airbnb look like it's his, puts his personal stuff in it, shoots all the content to sell his course and then gives it all back a week and goes back to his apartment. And so this is happening every single day. And that is why it is so difficult for people to understand who should I believe in the world of finance? Who should I take advice from? Who's really real? I mean, look at the Epstein files. I'm not following that closely, but a lot of people that a lot of our youth really believe in, they're getting wrecked because people are finding out what they really are as a person and not what they portray to be. So the number one thing is don't let lifestyle creep get in the way. You have to put your foot on the brakes, put aside money for investing for your future and not touch it. Because so many people build up a little bit of wealth, they go buy a boat, build up a little bit of wealth, invest in something bad. You have to have money that you never touch. So it is always growing while you sleep. That is the number one most important thing in entrepreneurship.

[James]

It's very common for somebody trying to do something unordinary, right? Especially if they're from a hometown where it may not be super receptive to people wanting to go out there. And try and build a business and do something untraditional, you know, like, we're from the D.C. area. It's all government jobs. The thought of trying to go out and build a media company, let alone a multi million dollar media company, you know, we had peers, I'm sure that thought that we were out of our minds. You in particular, right? I'm sure you had some family and friends that thought that you were a little delusional and crazy. Right. Can you tell us the story? I'm sorry, I'm going to bring this one up again because this is one of my favorite stories that I've ever had told in one of my interviews was when, you know, and I'll use the comparison that, you know, our parents now are just immense supporters of what we do. My mom every week's like, you need to interview this person to this person to this person. And I think the wake up call for my mom and dad was when they saw us interviewed on Fox News on Brian Kilmeade show, They're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that you guys are doing this. It finally clicked and it clicked for them. In your case, I believe it was when your mom had went to a Target see your product. Could you tell us that story and kind of the background on kind of what your mom's perceived thoughts of you were when you had started this company?

[Robert Croak]

Yes, it's a great story. So I grew up in East Toledo. Very poor neighborhood, no role models. We didn't have the Internet back then. We didn't have all the incredible tools that that the youth of today and the aspiring person that wants to make something of their lives, we didn't have all that. And I remember when Silly Bands first started growing, my mom wasn't really in the mix and she wasn't really following along. And she said to me one day, I went over to her house and she said to me, and I still had the construction company and all the other businesses and I was doing all right, but it was definitely a down year. This would have been 2009. And it was right when Silly Bands was getting traction. After Silly Bands got traction, I said to her, I said, hey, I want to take you to lunch. She's like, what for? And I'm like, let's just go to lunch. And I'm like, I want to show you something. So I take her to lunch. I go, I gotta stop in Target and grab something. I walk her into Target. I walk in, we walk down this aisle, and then I turn her around by the cash registers because we had the end cap. And I showed it to her. I said, this is why you never quit. Because she was just saying to me, well, I don't know why you just don't get a job. You have a degree. You could go get a job. I'm like, mom, people like me don't have jobs. You just don't. The last job I ever had was at a car dealership. And the manager at the time, he poked me in the chest. And I said, if you poke me in the chest and yell at me again, I'm going to beat the crap out of you. And he poked me again. And I got fired that day. And so that was the last job I ever had. And I think I was 21 or 22, but so I think it's just all about, you can't take advice from people that aren't going where you're going. I go through it right now. I mean, just three and a half years ago, I had business partners tease me and they were like, what are you doing, bro? You're making yourself look like a fool doing TikTok videos. TikTok is for kids dancing on the Internet. And I was like, it's sad that you don't understand that and that you don't understand what I'm doing. And now I've built. I have over 4 million followers through all the platforms. One of the biggest business and finance podcasts in the country. You know, I'm getting invited to go to the White House and the New York Stock Exchange the other day and all these cool things because I educate and give back and don't care what the rest of the world says because they don't understand my path. They never have. I mean, even when I was in my 20s and I was doing all the things I was doing back then, before silly bands, everyone was always like, why don't you just go get a job? And I'm like, it's just not the world for me. You know, I was always built to create things of my own. And that's why I'm so glad at my age that I'm able to take part in podcasts like this and spread the word of my experiences because it helps other people realize you can't listen to people that don't understand you and don't know what drives you. I remember, and this was in a good way, but it's still a great story. I was getting ready to go on high stakes poker for the first time back when I paid, played A lot of poker. And I was packing up and I was leaving in a couple hours. And at the time, my wife's dad said to me, pulls me aside, and he goes, hey, man. He goes, I'm just saying, I'm not trying to be rude or anything. He goes, but are you sure you want to do this? I'm like, what do you. What do you mean? It's going to be amazing? And he's like, you're going to go risk $500,000 playing poker? I said, well, you've seen me play poker. You know, I have a very high win rate, and I love poker. Yeah, I'm going to go risk it. He goes, well, I just want to make sure there's never going to be a situation where you're going to have to come and move in with us because you're gambling your money away. And it was just a story that I never forgot because here's a person that cared for me, but also didn't understand my path in life. And so that's why I always tell anyone that's young and that'll listen, or older people, it's never too late to give up, to start, and you should never give up because of what someone else says. You are the only person on this earth that knows the path that you want to be on, and you need to stick to that path.

[James]

We were talking about it in the car on the way over here that this was a really full circle podcast for us. I mean, obviously not just because, you know, Silly Bands was a part of our childhoods, but, I mean, the fact that, you know Your content since 2019, 2020, we've been consuming, like, on a regular basis. And I just want to give you your flowers on the content that you. Seriously.

[Josh]

We used to. We used to, you know, you know, show other people being like, hey, like, that selfie style of doing a video, like, you can do content raw.

[James]

It's not crazy production, but it's so tactical. And, I mean, you ran up millions of views and hundreds of thousands of followers off of it. And it's. It's real tactical advice. And I remember when I had first seen you, we were probably. I don't even know if we had started Hard Knocks when I first started seeing his reviews. It may have been, like, right before it. And I remember because I interviewed you, what, 2024 or 2024? But it was a couple years before that I had, like, wanted to. And just. I know that you're like, us all over the place. And I was like, Man, I gotta do a video with this guy at some point. But man, I just, I gotta give you your flowers because you're one of the, in my opinion, like one of the, the best personal brand business people that people should be, you know, tapped into and following because it's real tactical advice from people that's actually built companies and had a success on both the wealth creation and wealth preservation side of things.

[Robert Croak]

Yeah, I want to, I want to click back on that and thank you for all of you, but it's just if you look at my content today versus four years ago, it's exactly the same. It's tactical. I don't fall for any of the Trends. I have 20 agencies a week that hit me up and go, yo, bro, you're killing it. But if you let us edit your videos, we'll, we'll do better. I'm like, no, it won't do better because I don't ever want to lose. Like, trust me, I could do clickbait stuff. I could follow all the trends that everyone else does and I grow slower because I stick to what works. And that is I might not get as many views or as many likes or as many shares as people that do clickbait and all the fake stuff, but I change people's lives because, you know, I'm a gray haired older man that is trying to share as much value as possible. So I don't care about the trends that happen on TikTok and Instagram. I stick with the plan and it goes in waves. Sometimes I have months where the videos don't do as well. But I know it's still changing the people that see its lives. I can't control what the algorithms do. I can control what I do. And that's what I focus on that.

[Jack]

One of the things that you touched on that I loved was, was about the lifestyle inflation and how, look, if you keep making more money and you're not increasing, you know, the other aspects of your life, like investing and just, you know, storing away for the future. But I also want to talk about another facet which is celebrating your wins. And let's say someone is investing for their future, they're doing quite well for themselves. At what point can they go out and buy a nice car or reward themselves with a watch? Like, I know there's like that famous saying, like if you can't buy it twice, like, you can't buy it. But like what's like the framework that you follow and you recommend others to follow to reward themselves with like a Win like a personal win?

[Robert Croak]

Yes, A great question. And I'm going to give a shout out to Austin, my partner at AustinHankwitz on the rich Habits podcast. He has a good framework and I really like it. And I think it's, I think his framework and it can be adjusted monetarily is every time he saves and invests a hundred thousand dollars, he rewards himself, whether it's a new watch or a new jet Ski or something like that, where it's maybe 10% of that, that new milestone. And I think people can adjust that because you don't want to be really rich and never have fun. I have a buddy right now that has been a friend of mine for almost 30 years. He lives a horrible life and he has millions and millions of dollars. If you saw him on the street, you'd think he was a construction worker that does, you know, not even good construction because he's got a beat up truck, a beat up house, beat up furniture, he won't upgrade any of his stuff. And I, I beg him every time I talk to him once or twice a year, dude, you have millions of dollars, you have no kids, upgrade your lifestyle, so you enjoy your life. So I think it's really important for people to understand. Most men especially kick the can down the road on setting themselves up later till probably, who knows, we need a Harvard study. It's probably 43 years old when they wake up and have that oh shit moment of what have I been doing for all of my 20s and 30s and now into my 40s? I see it all the time. And I did a video a couple weeks ago that really touches on this. And I said, I said, isn't it crazy? We live in a world where the average, there's millions of adult males that know every stat, every score of every game, they know everything from every player, but they don't know What a Roth IRA is, what the, the S P 500 is.

[James]

They don't know their own stats, they

[Robert Croak]

don't know anything about finance, but yet they know every stat about other men that are making millions of dollars.

[Josh]

They'll know what you know, LeBron's finances before their own.

[Robert Croak]

That's right. And so that is one of the things. And I got, you know, quite a few haterade comments from that video, but it got a few million views because it's the truth. I have guys all the time. I was, had a bunch of buddies in town. Sorry about this, guys, but I had a bunch of buddies in town a couple weeks ago and they're not close friends, but they're friends, and they wanted to just talk about sports and this and that. I said, guys, I can't tell you who won the super bowl last year. I have no clue. If you had a gun to my head, I couldn't tell you won the World Series. I don't care what other men are doing. I care about helping the people that care about listening to me. And I care about my own family's success.

[James]

So here's the question. This is it right here. Should men buy sports jerseys with another man stave on the back of it?

[Robert Croak]

Never in the history of mankind. Now, now, now. I will say. I will say this. If. If Michael Jordan was gonna. If I was gonna go shoot a pickup game with him and he said he'd sign a jersey, I'd go buy a jersey and frame it. Because I'm a big Michael Jordan fan.

[James]

He's also a billionaire.

[Robert Croak]

That's right. But I would never go out in public wearing another man's name on my body. A jersey. I just wouldn't do it. And that's no hate to the. I have a lot of friends that do it. My apologies. It's just me. People always ask me, and I've lost friends over this, over the years, because, you know, they're always like, well, how did you end up with so much money? I'm like, because I don't do what you do. I don't go out every weekend waiting to get drunk. I don't have five fantasy teams. And I'm totally fine with people that want to do fantasy sports. I don't want to get a lot of hate from this. I'm totally fine. It's just not the life I've chosen.

[James]

And you have the blinders on. You're thinking about Robert Croak. You're not thinking about this person.

[Robert Croak]

You know, I love to play sports. I don't like to idolize other people that play sports. I like playing tennis. I ride my bike a lot. I run a lot. I do all those things. But I don't want to spend every week. Think about it right now in the NFL and all these. These platforms are genius. We used to have football on Saturday and Sundays. Now we got Monday football. We got Thursday football. So if you're someone that is not paying attention to your own finances, because now you're spending four days a week plastered to the TV to watch every

[Jack]

game with four different subscriptions, by the way.

[Robert Croak]

Four different subscriptions. And all I care about is there's a lot of very Wealthy friends of mine that love sports and watch it, but they're already wealthy. If you're complaining about living paycheck to paycheck, but you're in every fantasy team and you know every stat and every sport and every game score and all of that, then you need, you have work to do. You really do. And a lot of people just don't understand that. It's the truth. It's just so true.

[Josh]

Like, oh my God.

[Robert Croak]

Yep. Well, in the finance world, similar to with politics, there's an old saying that you can't control what happens in the White House, but you can control what happens in your own house.

[Jack]

Oh, I love it.

[Robert Croak]

And so many people don't realize that where they just go about their business, like think about the average person and this isn't me picking, this is me hopefully nudging them in the right direction. They get their paycheck, they're making good money. Saturday morning rolls around, they don't have automation of their investments. They look in their bank account and they've got eighteen hundred and thirty two dollars sitting in their account from their paycheck for the last two weeks or whatever it is, $926. They're bored. They don't have a plan for the day, so they get up and they go to the farmer's market and spend $180 on cutesy little things and some food. They go back, they have lunch, then they go meet people, friends and they have drinks that day and they spend 60 bucks. Then, then they go home, they take a nap, then they go out that night and they go to a dinner they probably can't afford or shouldn't afford. It is a vicious cycle for almost all adults like you. Think about it. Seasonally we have wedding season coming up. You guys are at the age where you're going to have seven weddings this summer. Okay? So those seven weddings, if you're not financially stable, are going to go on the credit card. So then after wedding season, you're going to spend months trying to pay those credit cards down and it's going to suck because you're have to give up a lot. Then comes the holiday season. So you're going to go spend buck wild in the holiday season trying to be the cool uncle and the cool friend and all that. Then you get back to the spring, you're paying all. It's a vicious cycle most people never jump off of to be able to set themselves up. Because the number one thing, especially as I get older, that I want everyone to realize at the end of the day, no one is going to be there to pick you up. You have to do it yourself. You can't rely on everyone else.

[James]

Robert, we like to end these podcasts off with two last questions for our guests. I'll start, and Jack will take us home. Robert, God forbid, if me and you died tomorrow and you could leave one last guiding principle, one last message with the younger generation, what would that be?

[Robert Croak]

I would say follow your dreams, but you don't have to be passionate about your dreams to make money. So many people say if you follow your dreams, you'll never work a day in your life. And that's literally a quote from rich people. Because so many people think they need to be doing this super impactful thing early in their careers. And I think it's. I think people early on need to think like investors and make as much money as they can early so they can enjoy life better later. So for everyone listening, don't worry about following your dreams early. Worry about making money. So many people get a 9 to 5 job and they go, well, it's not enough. Well, guess what? There's nights, there's weekends. Go get a side hustle, build up a company on the side. Maybe it only makes you 500amonth. Take all that 500 and invest it. That would be the number one most important thing for me, is you want to follow your dreams. I'm living the dream life now, but I created the ability to live this life. Otherwise, how would I sit here and film with you guys for hours when I'm not getting paid for it? You know what I mean? So I've built a life where I can do exactly what I want. Because at some point in everyone's life, they have to get to a place where they own their time 100% and no one else can tell them what to do with their time.

[Josh]

And, Robert, if tomorrow it was all said and done, how would you want to be remembered?

[Robert Croak]

I would say I would want to be remembered as a guy that always tried to be mindful for others, treated people like he wanted to be treated, and always tried to give as much value as I can, because I always believe if I provide a ton of value, the money will always come. And I never want to be a person that doesn't get looked at as the guy that just put it all out there and was always trying to give back and do as much as he could for the average person. Because not everyone has the ability to figure all this out on their own. There's a lot of bad information out there. There's a lot of people out there that are just trying to sell people behind a paywall to help them get rich quick. I want to be the guy that's remembered as this guy that just put it all out there and provided a ton of value for anyone that would listen.

[James]

I love it. Beautifully said, Jess.

[Josh]

Thank you.

[James]

This was an incredible episode. Amazing masterclass, amazing conversation. Thank you everybody watching right now. Be sure to like and subscribe, guys, for amazing content and incredible guests we have coming every single week to the Hard Knocks podcast. Just like Robert Croak, we're going to put the link down in the description so that way you guys can follow along with Robert Croak on social media and get access to the Rich Habits podcast, the Rich Habits Network. We're also going to put a link down in the description to join the School of Mentors where you can get access to our multimillionaire and billionaire network every single week where you can hop on live calls with the eight, nine and even 10 figure entrepreneurs that we interview on the School of Hard Knocks. So we can't wait to see you on the inside. With that being said, we'll see you in the next episode.