Ingredients that Make People Binge Your Podcast

Summary

Episode Overview

Podcast: School of Podcasting: Expert Tips for Launching and Growing Your Podcast
Host: Dave Jackson
Episode: Ingredients that Make People Binge Your Podcast
Date: February 9, 2026

This episode centers on how podcasters can create shows so compelling that listeners binge not just the latest episode, but entire back catalogs. Drawing inspiration from television, Netflix, and the movie industry, Dave Jackson unpacks actionable strategies—including the use of “open loops,” authenticity, and consistency—to grow audience engagement, build trust, and set up a path toward successful monetization.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Binge-Worthy Content

• TV Patterns Applied to Podcasting

  • Dave reflects on binge-watching TV shows like Will Trent and Tracker, noting how both open and close story loops to keep viewers glued episode after episode.
  • “So I'm watching this show on Hulu called Will Trent...there's a problem at the beginning of the episode...and the problem is solved. On occasion they'll do a two parter. Ooh. With a cliffhanger.” (02:00)

• The “Save the Cat” Principle

  • Relates the idea that making characters relatable or likable—even in minor ways—can translate to podcasts, urging hosts to show authenticity and small “hero” moments.

2. The Psychology of “Open Loops” (03:50–10:12)

• What Are Open Loops?

  • Open loops are unresolved story elements or questions that hook an audience’s brain into craving closure.
  • “It's an open loop that your brain wants to close. And so all of these shows...have this subplot...It's this open loop that makes you tune in. And I was like, that's why we're binging. It's the open loop.” (05:35)

• Practical Podcast Examples

  • Refers to the Pod News Weekly Review (Sam Sethi & James Cridland) and Podcast Junkies (Harry Duran) as great at using teasers, chapter summaries, and recurring guest progress stories to create open loops.
  • “If you do that, you've now heard what's coming next week...you're probably going to be much more inclined to click on follow for that show.” (07:59)

• Seasons, Ongoing Initiatives, and the Audience Journey

  • Highlights Podcraft by Colin Gray and Matthew, which uses focused topical seasons.
  • Suggests creating ongoing, serialized storylines or initiatives (“behind the scenes,” “journey podcasts,” etc.) as continuous reasons for audiences to return.

3. Authenticity, Trust, and Word of Mouth (22:13–29:10)

• Celebrity Podcasting: Pitfalls & Passion

  • Dave critiques Pete Davidson’s “sure, I’ll try it” attitude toward starting a Netflix “podcast” and warns against starting a show with no genuine passion or preparation.
  • “I always tell people when you start a podcast, you should have the passion of a 16 year old trying to get their license... So listen to Pete when Netflix offers him a podcast...” (16:03)
  • “That is not the way to start a podcast. Go in it with like, sure, I'll try it. You know, I'll interview a bunch of people I don't want to interview, and we'll just wing it. Yeah, I do not recommend that.” (18:36)

• Authenticity as a Differentiator

  • Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, in a Joe Rogan Experience appearance, stress that audiences crave authenticity, not scripted PR content.
  • “People have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick. And you go on and you do your song and dance...nobody cares.” (24:31 - Ben Affleck)
  • “Who do I think is authentic? And am I actually going to be willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit and listen?” (27:16 - Ben Affleck)

• Word of Mouth: Still King

  • Dave emphasizes the lasting power of word-of-mouth recommendations, paralleling how movies like Sixth Sense grew through buzz—and how podcasts grow through sharing.
  • “The most powerful thing to grow your show is to get people to share it. Good old word of mouth.” (27:43)

4. Effective Monetization: The Three-Year Rule (33:52–43:09)

• Monetization Takes Time

  • Repeatedly references that sustainable monetization for most podcasts typically takes three or more years of remarkable, consistent content.
  • “It takes about three years to grow your audience to where you can monetize. And there's a reason for that.” (33:52)
  • Numerous soundbites affirm this timeline, including Jordan Harbinger: “So when we started our podcast...I think if I were to give you any tip at all, if there's only one from this talk, it's just consistency, right?” (41:11–43:09)

• Algorithm Dependency & Platform Pitfalls

  • Warns against over-reliance on platforms’ algorithms (e.g., YouTube) or risky paywalls, as it can destroy long-term audience relationships if not managed wisely.
  • “I know a lot of big YouTubers...they go, I can't take a week off...because the YouTube algorithm will punish me...” (35:59 - Jordan Harbinger)
  • Example of a friend who put her podcast behind a paywall, lost the audience, and struggled to recover after the paywall was removed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Creating Binge Content:
  “Open loops suck people in...they don't have to be this major thing. But open loops suck people in.”
  — Dave Jackson (05:18)

• On Interviewing Prep:
  “My whole take on the podcast was it would be so cool to just the second they get there, start recording, and then you just talk. And then see...what happens? Yeah. That is not the way to start a podcast.”
  — Dave Jackson commenting on Pete Davidson’s approach (18:21)

• On Platform Risks:
  “If Netflix came in and offered me 110, 120% of what I'm making on YouTube, I just, I don't know if I would take that deal...because I'm basically shooting my business momentum in the foot.”
  — Jordan Harbinger (37:05)

• On Trust and Authenticity:
  “Who do I think is authentic? And am I actually going to be willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen...?”
  — Ben Affleck (27:16)

• On Monetization Timeline:
  “I always say it takes about three years to grow your audience to where you can monetize. And there's a reason for that...”
  — Dave Jackson (33:52)

• On Consistency’s Importance:
  “If there's only one [tip] from this talk, it's just consistency, right? It's not even just podcasting. It's not just content marketing. It's your business, it's your life, right?”
  — Jordan Harbinger (42:19)

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Noteworthy Listener Story: “Because of My Podcast…” (31:07–32:56)

Ray Arnott of the Around the Layout Podcast shared a standout “because of my podcast” testimonial:
A listener and expert from Sydney, Australia, after engaging with Ray’s show and content, invited Ray for an all-expenses-paid trip to speak at the very first Sydney RPM (Railroad Prototype Modeler) event.

“So that opportunity... will be for me to go over to attend the very first Sydney RPM, a trip of a lifetime. I've never thought in my life I'd ever really leave the United States... really all because of my podcast.” (31:07)

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Key Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–05:35: TV binge-watching habits and their relevance: “open loops”
• 05:35–10:12: Explaining and applying “open loops” in podcasting
• 15:55–19:39: Celebrity podcasting pitfalls; importance of passion and prep (Pete Davidson segment)
• 21:46–27:16: Ben Affleck/Matt Damon: movie marketing, the power of podcasts, authenticity, and the changing media landscape
• 31:07–32:56: Listener story: Ray Arnott’s “Because of My Podcast” experience
• 33:52–43:09: Monetization realities (“the three-year rule”) with Jordan Harbinger & Dave Jackson

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Summary Table: Ingredients for Binge-Worthiness

| Strategy | Description | Example/Quote (Timestamp) | |---------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------------------------| | Open Loops | Unresolved stories or “what’s next?” elements that keep listeners engaged | “It's an open loop that makes us click the next episode.” (06:15) | | Authenticity | Being real, relatable, honest—audiences are hungry for this in a time of forced PR | “Who's like a legitimate neutral arbiter?” (25:10, Ben Affleck) | | Consistency | Show up regularly, deliver value to be seen as trustworthy & build momentum | “If there's only one [tip], it's just consistency...” (42:19, Jordan Harbinger) | | Word of Mouth | Encourage sharing—the most powerful growth lever remains personal recommendation | “The most powerful thing to grow your show is...good old word of mouth.” (27:43) | | Passion and Preparation | Start a podcast because you need to, not just because you “might as well”; prep is essential | “That is not the way to start a podcast.” (18:36) | | Audience Journey | Take listeners on a story or learning journey—create an ongoing relationship with them | “Some cases, the open loop is you're just going through the journey with the host.” (10:12) |

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Takeaways & Action Steps for Podcasters

1. Design Each Episode with Open Loops:
   Give your audience a reason to listen to the next episode—teasers, unresolved subplots, or personal updates are all effective.

2. Lead with Authenticity:
   Listeners have sensitive BS meters; be yourself, share what excites or challenges you, and avoid overly scripted, promotional content.

3. Be Consistent:
   Growth, monetization, and community don’t happen overnight. Commit to delivering quality for at least three years.

4. Prompt Word of Mouth:
   Encourage your audience to share, and give them remarkable, relatable content they’re proud to recommend.

5. Respect the Craft:
   Don’t take the “just hit record and talk” approach. Prepare, plan, and approach each episode with purpose and respect for your audience’s time.

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This episode is an engaging, story-rich guide for podcasters who want to “level up” by learning what truly makes a podcast binge-worthy—and how to build an audience that sticks around.

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For more resources or to join Dave’s podcasting community, visit schoolofpodcasting.com.

Transcript

[Dave Jackson]

If you're a podcaster who wants more listeners binging your back catalog. Today I'm going to break down three binge triggers that I kind of picked up from TV and Netflix that you can apply directly to your podcast. We also have an amazing because of my podcast story. Hit it, ladies. The school of podcasting with Dave Jackson. Podcasting since 2005. I'm your award winning hall of fame podcast coach, Dave Jack. Thanking you so much for tuning in. If you are new to the show, this is where I help you plan, launch and grow your podcast. Today we're talking about growing. Of course, we're always kind of talking about growing the website schoolofpodcasting.com and so have you ever done this? You fall asleep on a couch, you wake up, Hulu is still going on, and you start watching a show you've never watched before. You're not sure why you're watching. But what's even weirder is when the episode is over and they give you that 0.2 seconds to figure out if you want to go to the next episode before it just goes to the next episode. And then you watch the next episode. And I was like, wait, and I'll give you an example. I'm not a private eye kind of guy, you know, And I'm watching this show on Hulu called Will Trent. And it dawns on me that Will Trent and the show Tracker. Tracker is great because. Well, actually, both Will Trent and Tracker have the same thing. There's a problem at the beginning of the episode. Oh, no, someone has died or someone is missing. And then, you know, whatever, 50 minutes later, give or take some commercials, the problem is solved. What do you know? Now on occasion they'll do a two parter. Ooh. With a cliffhanger. But that's when I was kind of like, huh? And then I will hear from Matt Damon and Ben Affleck today. There's some things I heard them say that I wanted to bring up. And they brought up the show Adolescence, which is on Netflix. And so I was like, okay. Because I really got into Will Trent. And what's funny about this is in the very first episode, you kind of learn that this guy is just like a super detective. But in the very first episode, he saved a dog. Like he was literally taking it into the pound and he was going to drop it off and you think he's going to be cruel hearted and just drop it there. And then they say he goes, well, you're not going to kill it. Right? Like, this is a no kill. Shelter. And they're like, well, most of the time. And he ends up saving the dog. Now, what's funny about this is there's actually a book called Save the Cat. And in basically movies or stories, you could have your main character, and even if he's kind of cranky and not very likable, they will have him save a cat. And what they mean by that is maybe, you know, save a cat from a tree so that the audience roots for them. And that's exactly it. This particular one with the detective, it turns out that nobody likes him because he actually turned in people on the police force, like he turned on his own. And so you're like, oh, nobody likes him, but you like him because he just saved this really cute Chihuahua. Now, Dave, what does this have to do with podcasting? It's very simple. It's a pattern. And what it is, they call it. There's a couple different. I call it a brain gap. I've heard other people call it other things, like open loops. It's an open loop that your brain wants to close. And so all of these shows, like Tracker, you're watching it again, so somebody's lost, and then he finds them. But you find out that the lead character's father died mysteriously. So you have this subplot with Will Trent. He's this super detective. Turns out he's a dyslexic. And then you find out that there's one of those actresses that you don't know her name, but the minute you see her, you're like, oh, there's what's her name again? And they are hooking up or not hooking up. And I'm like, well, that's. That's old as dirt. From I Dream of Jeannie to moonlighting in the 80s with Bruce Willis and Cybil shepherd to Ross and Rachel, they're always like, are they going to be together or not? It's this open loop that makes you tune in. And I was like, that's why we're binging. It's the open loop. And so if you're telling a story, you might say, I wasn't even sure if I wanted to do it, but I thought I would give it a try. That's kind of an open loop. They want to see how the story ends. Or if you're like, I opened up the door, and I knew there were going to be three things we were looking for, but I only saw one of them. Okay, it's. It's weird. They don't have to be this major thing. But open loops suck people in. And at first I was kind of like, well, how does this apply for podcasts? And it dawned on me that I was listening to Pod News Weekly Review with Sam Sethi and James Kridlin. And I love the way they do their show at the beginning. They give you kind of a table of contents and explain who they're talking to and why. Then they get right into it and they have chapters. Yay, chapters. So you can skip from one segment to the next. So if they're interviewing somebody that you could care less about, you just skip it. And then at the end, they do the. What most people do opening chit chat. They do it at the very end. And Sam will go, so, James, what's been going on with you? And I remember it was probably about a month ago, and that's when it dawned on me, oh, wait a minute. They created an open loop. And James lives in Australia, where it's really hot this time of year. And he just put up some solar panels, which I'm going to assume were not cheap. And then they had a huge storm and it damaged some of the solar panels. So there's a part of my brain that's still waiting to hear what happened to James Cridland solar panels. Did he fix them? Is everything working? What's going on? But that's where the chit chat at the end of the show could be, that underlying story. Now, am I tuning in just to hear, you know, Sam just closed a deal for his app, True fans, you know, so we got to hear some of that. And these are the little things where people get to know you and they kind of want to know what's going on with you. It's an open loop that makes us click the next episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some other things we can do that are kind of teasers, I think my. The king of this is my buddy Harry Duran [e-mail] and he does these quickly. He introduces his show. You know, welcome to the show where we. Blah, blah, blah. If you missed last week's episode, we talked to so and so about such and such. I'll have links to the show notes, links to that episode in the show notes. So you heard about what you missed last week on today's show when he gets right to it, or talking with so and so about such and such, and then you have this great conversation. Harry, for me, is the king of. I'm sitting there going, ooh, I hope he asked him this, or I hope he asked her this. And then he will. And I'll be like, yes. So he's the king of somehow reading my mind and asking the questions that I would ask if I was in his chair. And then at the end of the show, and I wish I could do this, he knows what the next episode is. I kind of go episode to episode. I don't have a bunch in the can, but if I knew what next week's episode was, I could say, hey, I hope you enjoyed this talk with so and so. Next week, I'm talking to so and so about such and such. So if you do that, you've now heard what's coming next week. You, you consumed what happened this week and you heard what happened the first week. And so in one episode, you now have three ideas of what this show is about. And if it sounds like you liked the one you missed, and if it sounds like you're going to like the one next week, you're probably going to be much more inclined to click on follow for that show. Now, you might do this in seasons. I'm not a huge fan of seasons, especially when you take lots of time off in between them. In my opinion, you're giving your audience a chance to go find a better show. But my buddy Colin Gray, along with Matthew over at Podcraft, they do seasons now. They don't take a lot of time off between. But I remember one season was just about hardware and then they'll do one season that's just about maybe interviews.

[Ray Arnott]

And.

[Dave Jackson]

And so if you want to binge that topic and do a deep dive, that's what they do in seasons. And again, if you could kind of tease the next episode, that would be one of those open loops that might get people binging your episodes. And then I didn't even realize that I was doing one and didn't know it. And that is I've been talking about the how to pitch a podcast project and the idea of this is I want to make a show that we can send PR people to to go, hey, here's how you should be pitching me. And I want to give a little exposure to the people that chime in. So thanks to Steve Stewart from stevestewart Me. Just got an email from Steve. He said, hey, I just submitted my my story and you can do that too by going over to pitch a podcast.com if you're not sure what to say. I've got examples there and it sounds really weird. If you got a good pitch, I just want you to read it. If you Got a bad pitch. I just want you to read it and then explain who your show is for what you talk about and who your perfect guest would be, because they might be listening. And I'm not launching the show until I get 20 stories, and I think we're down to 15 at this point. I haven't checked today, but it's a great way to get a little exposure for your show. And like I said, you never know. Your. Your perfect guest might actually be listening to that show. But it turns out, what is that? It's an ongoing initiative that people are like, oh, you know, and you might be kind of involved with, like, oh, I really want to see this show take off. Well, good. Go, go share your story, would you? But it could be an ongoing thing. Whatever it is, if it's something in your life where, you know, there are Journey. There are whole podcasts like that called Journey Podcast. Joanna Penn does a show. And what was fun about Joanna is I interviewed her back in, like, 2007, and she wanted to learn about being an independent author. And so her podcast got her involved with publishers and agents and everybody else, because, again, if you went to an agent or a publisher, hey, can I pick your brain for 20 minutes? They'd be like, get out of here, kid. You bother me. But if you say, would you come on my podcast? And now Fast forward to 2026. Joanna Penn is now an expert on independent podcasting. So in some cases, the open loop is you're just going through the journey with the host. So those are some things that you can do to kind of get people interested in your back catalog or keep them listening to the next episode. We're kind of creating that. What would you kind of call that? It's an ongoing initiative, I guess that's going on behind the scenes in the TV shows. I mentioned the Will Trent and the Tracker and all the other ones. It's this story that continues while every episode is the same. Somebody was lost, and now they're found. You have this underlying story that's going through the whole thing. And I believe that's why we are binging content. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So pay attention the next time you start binging something and ask yourself, why is it I'm dying to see the next episode or read the next chapter, if you're reading a book or whatever. And I'm pretty sure you're going to find an open loop that you want to. Now in a minute, we're gonna kind of shift gears. And I listened to a couple shows with some celebrities on it. And one gave horrendous advice on starting a podcast and the other two gave great insights into how the movie business and if you look at podcasting, we're very similar to the movie business. We make content, we edit it, we share it with people to get feedback, we release it to the public and then we hope that those people tell their friends. That's very similar to podcasting. And we're going to hear that. Netflix, yes, they have shows on there now. And I'm going to put up giant quotation marks podcast because I'm in the no RSS feed, no podcast kind of camp, but some really interesting insights on entertainment and how you have to know your audience and how you have to know your format. And we're going to get to that right after this. Are you interested in starting a podcast or growing the one you already have? You should join the school of podcasting. Your future self will thank you for the bigger network and opportunities at the door and more confidence behind the mic. Your future self will thank you for taking those steps that you senselessly worried about. Your future self will believe it was the best money you've ever spent. Your future self will be glad you invested in you as you are worth it. But here's the thing. The future self can't thank you in the future if you don't take steps now in the present. Don't be afraid. I'll be with you all the way. You have 30 days to see if we're a good fit. And in 31 days you'll be smiling, wishing you had done this sooner. But only if you take action today. Go to schoolofpodcasting.com join now. Your future self will thank you. Want more podcasting tips? Join the 1700 people who read my newsletter at Podcasting observations. That's podcasting observations.com the School of podcasting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am familiar with Pete Davidson for being on Saturday Night Live. He's a comedian. He has a couple specials on Netflix. I actually watched one and was pleasantly surprised. It's really dark humor and if you're new to the show, I love me some dark humor. But what I thought was interesting is Pete Davidson was on the Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon. And I always tell people when you start a podcast, you should have the passion of a 16 year old trying to get their license. Like I can't help but talk about this. I need to talk about this. I remember when I was married my my now ex stepson when he was 16. If I got within 20ft of that kid. Can we go driving? Can we go driving? Can we go driving? And so listen to Pete when Netflix offers him a podcast. Yeah, they're doing a podcast now. And they were like. They were looking for someone who didn't have one yet. And I was like, sure, yeah, I'll be the test bunny. Yes. You know, so I don't hear a ton when somebody goes, okay, you know, sounds like fun. It's not a really. And the reason you need a lot of passion. And Pete points this out, while podcasting is simple, it's not easy. Your job's hard, dude. Do you think so? Yeah, dude. You have to pretend to care about people every day. I had like, no, I do care. I know, but like, people, it's fun when you have your friends. Like, this is easy. Or like, when you have people that you work with, it's like you're just talking. But you have to interview people that you know that. That are boring. No, that's. No, no, no, it's fine. Yeah, but you have to be like, oh, it's amazing. Yeah, that's. Oh, yeah. Wow. So that's the joy of being on a big network, is they might have some say on how your show goes down. And I've heard David Letterman, I've heard Jimmy Kimmel talk about their times, and you walk in, you're like, who am I talking to today? And they name off three names, and you've never heard of any of them. Then you have to pretend like you're best buds. But the other one that Pete said that, I was like, oh, this is just bad advice. I don't do any prep, right? No, because I do. Yeah. No. Well, you're very good at this. My whole take on the podcast was it would be so cool to just the second they get there, start recording, and then you just talk. And then see. See what happens? And then you see what happens. Yeah. That is not the way to start a podcast. Go in it with like, sure, I'll try it. You know, I'll interview a bunch of people I don't want to interview, and we'll just wing it. Yeah, I do not recommend that. Now watch Pete Davidson. First of all, calling his show a podcast is a really big stretch because you won't be able to get it on any podcast apps like Apple or Spotify. Nope. And that's when I go, it's not a podcast. And that drives me nuts. I'm starting to see more and more reports. I don't wanna say they're worthless, but they're really confusing because right now, this little rake that you can't see that I used to scratch my back, it's now a podcast. Why? Because I said so. And so we're going to take another really quick break here and we're going to talk about the power of word of mouth and we're going to talk about how value for value, which has been in podcasting for a decade, if not more, is working its way into the movie business.

[Ben Affleck]

Ooh, now that's a good question from.

[Dave Jackson]

The hallway at the novel marketing conference, my buddy Emily Kate from Emily Kate Creative has a question. I want to know, in the beginning, throughout your story, what sacrifices and shortcuts did you take and did they work out well? The ones that worked out well and made you a success, what were they? All right, I need your answer by February 20, 2026. Go to schoolofpodcasting.comquestion and don't forget to tell us the name of your show, your website, and a little bit about your show. Again, schoolofpodcasting.com? by February 20, 2026. Thanks, Emily Kate. Hey, where am I going to be February 4th online? I'll be doing a presentation, podcasting power. Grow your small business with with your voice. Then February 17th through the 20th in Nashville, Tennessee, I'll be speaking at the NRB 2026 International Christian Media Convention. For more information, go to schoolofpodcasting.com where to have me speak, go to schoolofpodcasting dot com contact the School of podcasting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Matt Damon and Ben Affleck were on the Joe Rogan show. And I always say Joe is a good show. I'm not a huge fan because of episodes like this. The beginning was really good and the end was amazing. The middle, meh, you know, but nonetheless, I think especially Ben Affleck is a guy that understands that the times, they are a changing and, and we got to do something different because he explains what it takes to make a successful movie. And listen to the budget on this.

[Ben Affleck]

Stuff, you spend about the same amount that you spend on the movie to advertise the movie. So if you spend 25 million to make the movie, 25 million to advertise the movie. So now you got $50 million into the movie and from the movie theaters you get back roughly 50%. So if a movie makes $100 million, you know, you get back $50 million. So if you get back $50 million, that's you 25 million dollar movie got to gross 100 million just in simple math.

[Dave Jackson]

So that's very scary when you think about it, because we think about the word of mouth that can go for a movie. You know, I always bring up the example of the Sixth Sense. If you've never seen that movie, watch that movie and then tell me if you were able to not tell anyone, because that is a, like, that's the definition of a remarkable movie. You have to tell someone when you see that movie. And I'm not going to spoil it, but you hear how these movies make their art. It's their art, man. And then there's a huge budget to get the word out, hoping that the people that you convince to go into a theater and watch it will tell their friends. And so one of the ways you can grow your show and also remember these people sit in a viewing with the audience to make sure it resonates is to pay. And so you can go into things like Overcast and other podcast apps, because that's the best place to advertise, in my opinion. Why? Because we know people that are using a podcast app listen to podcasts. So that's a thought. But I thought it was interesting that they shared how podcasting now is much more effective at getting the word out. In fact, they say the last election here in the US they refer to it as the podcast election because the person that won went on the most popular show there is. And so here's Ben and Matt talking about the power of podcasting over mainstream media. Like the press stuff. Is that still important?

[Jordan Harbinger]

It is.

[Dave Jackson]

I don't know to degree each specific thing is.

[Ben Affleck]

I mean, it's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today, and remember we were saying, I was like, doing this show, this is probably more meaningful than the rest of the. We do in aggregate to promote this movie. Like, we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't.

[Dave Jackson]

Know how many interviews, you know, the.

[Ben Affleck]

The quick ones with all the outlets, five minute interviews, all the, the, the evening shows, the day shows, all that stuff. And, and this just given how many people listen to the show, will be more meaningful.

[Dave Jackson]

And so you might ask, well, why is a show influential? And so Ben was talking about the current mainstream media.

[Ben Affleck]

All of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised, and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick. And you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing, it looks great and nobody cares.

[Dave Jackson]

And I'll give you an example. If Jimmy Fallon or Kimmel said something, an opinion about something. Would you believe it? And I know Jimmy Kimmel. Let's go Jimmy Fallon. Jimmy Fallon loves everything he says, oh, it was the best movie. Was it? Like, you know, everything's great and because when it all boils down to it, when we find someone we trust, word of mouth is huge.

[Ben Affleck]

They're looking to go either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they trusted. And a trusted person is in. Like, you're like basically your feed, right? And it's your friend or your cousin, or they affix that to somebody, which has become a more rare thing, like, who's like a legitimate neutral arbiter.

[Dave Jackson]

I wouldn't start a political podcast to save my life, but if I did, I would try to be neutral, knowing that both sides are going to hate me. But that is something that I feel is missing. And then when we look at late night TV talk shows, and if you wonder why those are going down in the ratings, it's because their interviews are horrendous. They're short. It's like, what was your heard? You had a fun summer vacation. Oh, my kids broke their toe and. Okay, let's roll the clip. And so Ben is talking about how, you know, everything keeps getting shorter. But is that really what the audience wants?

[Ben Affleck]

The form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. So you're like a seven second. You know, we have an advertising company, we do of the spots that we release, like 15 second spots, six second spots for social, the ones most people see. And then there's this one form which is like long form discussions that are, whatever, two hours long. And the amazing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form. And that's why you see these are getting more popular, obviously have this massive audience.

[Dave Jackson]

And so for me, I've never, in fact, if you go in, that whole thing about we have the attention span of a goldfish that has been proven wrong over and over and over. And I don't think our attention span is getting shorter. I believe our BS meter is just getting more sensitive. So I can watch a comedy special and know within like seven minutes if I'm gonna watch the rest of this. You have to really figure out those people that you believe when they say it's good.

[Ben Affleck]

I think that it probably has something to do with like, who do I think is authentic? And am I actually gonna willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through and that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand. Conversations that have context and nuance and where there's like a back and forth. They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of give that sort of voice to in their life.

[Dave Jackson]

Because I don't know about you, I'm tired of watching news channels that tell me what to think. That's not your job. I don't want to get all political, but, you know, tell me the who, what, why, when and where and then I'll figure out if this was a good or bad thing. But in the end, they talk about authenticity, and I realize that makes some people cringe. But until we come up with a better word, that's the one we're going to use. Because in the end, to get your show to grow, it has to be remarkable. Because the most powerful thing to grow your show is to get people to share it. Good old word of mouth. And I always point out, if you watch a YouTuber, they're, hey, like, subscribe and ring the bell. Why do they say that? The subscribe button has never moved. To the best of my knowledge, it's always been in the bottom right hand corner. I know where it is. Well, the reason they say that is because it works. Why do you think I play a jingle at the end of the show that says, if you like what you hear, go tell someone? Well, you know that you can tell somebody, but I'm telling you. Oh, don't forget, if you liked what you heard. Well, did you like it? Yeah. Well, go tell someone, would you? Because word of mouth is amazing. It's also the voice of the public too, because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online.

[Ben Affleck]

And people just start, like, saying how.

[Dave Jackson]

Great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that, it just takes off organically now.

[Ben Affleck]

Yeah. And that has more. More weight than anything.

[Dave Jackson]

More weight than anything. Our good friend, word of mouth. So again, if you want people to binge, create some open loops, and that may just be binging this episode, Right. Opening up with a good tease at the beginning. But if you have some sort of character or some sort of ongoing story that can lead to the next episode, and of course, do not follow Pete Davidson's example and do some prep, have a purpose for your podcast and then realize people are dying to trust someone. They need someone that they can trust. And when you give them, well, there are a couple things. When you show up on a regular basis, you are seen as trustworthy. When you give them information that they go, that makes sense, I'm going to try that. And then they try it and it works. Then they really like you and then they might actually share it with a friend. Keep that in mind. And the next time somebody says, yeah, you know, our attention spans are getting shorter and shorter, just ask them like, you know, I've heard that before. If that's the case, why do we have the word binge? Welcome to because of My Podcast where we spotlight the results people are achieving because of their podcast. In just a minute I heard the magic number. I'll be talking about that in just a second. But back on episode 977, I believe is when I was talking with Ray Arnott of the around the Layout Podcast. You can find [e-mail] and Ray is always crushing it. He is the king of model railroading and well, he's got a really cool because of my podcast story, Take it away Ray.

[Ray Arnott]

I was contacted back in the late summer months, maybe into the fall of 2025 by a listener and past guest of around the Layout Podcast who was who had heard Me talk about RPMs Railroad prototype modelers meets, and I had attended several and I talked a lot about them on the show. Very big proponent of RPMs and gathering and sharing information and this gentleman from Sydney, Australia asked me a bunch of questions with the idea he was starting an RPM in Sydney. And throughout the conversation I was really humbled and honored just in the fact that somebody on the other side of the planet was willing to reach out to me as an expert in the field on RPMs and get my opinion on them. The surprise came at the end of the conversation when he said, can I ask you a personal question? And asked if I pay business class on Cafe Pacific out of Boston, will you come? So that opportunity, which will be now coming in April, will be for me to go over to attend the very first Sydney rpm, A trip of a lifetime. I've never thought in my life I'd ever really leave the United States or maybe even North America, let alone fly to the other side of the planet, be able to meet people in person that I've had on the podcast, meet my executive producer who I've never met in person, we've worked only on online and have that chance. And really all because of my podcast.

[Dave Jackson]

Yes, Amazing. Who doesn't want a free trip to Australia to hang out with people who love the same thing you love. How cool was that? Find ray [e-mail] and I'll have a link to the episode that Ray and I did back on episode 977. You can find it by going to schoolofpodcasting.com 1022. And there goes Ray. I was listening to the PodBiz podcast with Norma Jean Balenke and John Kiernan, and they were interviewing a guy named Michael Osborne. And if you're new to the show, I always say it takes about three years to grow your audience to where you can monetize. And there's a reason for that. And this is another example, actually, that was true with all three of my.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Shows, that the average time between launch and actually bringing a partner to the.

[Dave Jackson]

Table was about three and a half years. And I'll put the clip, which will now include that one of many people saying about three years. So I know I don't like that answer, and I know you don't like that answer, but. And that's three years of making remarkable content. It's not a thing where if you just don't quit for three years, people will throw money at you. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying people that have been creating amazing, remarkable content for three years seem to have an audience. And since we're playing other people's stuff, and Rob Greenlee is a friend of mine, really great guy. I call him Podcasting Jolly Green Giant. And he's in an interesting spot because he did the new media show with Todd Cochran. And if you're not familiar with that name, unfortunately, Todd passed away suddenly, and Rob has decided to keep the show going after a hiatus. And he's interviewing people. And he interviewed one of my favorite people, Mr. Jordan do the Work Harbinger. And I love his show. He's a great interviewer. And the thing I really love about Jordan is this is a guy that makes a living podcasting, and one of the few that I know that only does it via advertising. There's no, you know, Patreon, there's no nothing. And even he has a course on networking, and he doesn't charge for it. So I love Jordan. And he will see what's going on, all the trends and stuff, and if it doesn't fit him, and more importantly, if it doesn't fit his audience, he's not doing it. And so Rob asked him about YouTube, which brought Jordan up to talk about the almighty algorithm. And we're all like, oh, we gotta be on YouTube. They have an algorithm. Well, be careful what you ask for.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Just don't know. I know a lot of big YouTubers that don't. Not podcaster people. This is a different thing. I know a lot of podcaster folks too, but they go, I can't take a week off and go home and visit my family for Thanksgiving because the YouTube algorithm will punish me. Right? They won't be featured as much. Even my own YouTube team is like, we gotta release two or three things a week. We just gotta. If you do one and it's a massive hit, maybe we'll wait a few extra days. If you do one and it's a stinker, I gotta release another one. If that's a stinker, I gotta release another one. Right? You want to keep the algorithm happy and fed. So what do you do if you take a year off because you got a Netflix deal and you come back and then what? You gotta really massage that algorithm again. And there's just no guarantees that you're going to be able to regain that flywheel of momentum. So if, if I can't. If Netflix came in and offered me 110, 120% of what I'm making on YouTube, I just, I don't know if I would take that deal. What other. What else are you promising me? Because I'm basically shooting my business momentum in the foot and reloading and doing it again by taking that deal just to make a couple of extra bucks. Not worth it. A long time. I know I'm going off here, but a long time ago, a really good friend of mine who's been in podcasting for longer than me, so like 20 plus years, she took her show and she said, hey, Jordan, I'm going to put the whole behind a paywall. And I said, this is a really bad idea. She goes, no, no. My manager said if I put it behind a paywall and only like 5% of my subscribers actually pay, I'm going to be making this. And right now I'm making this. So I'm just. The math works out, I'm going to make way more money. Well, she put her show behind a paywall. She did not get 5% conversion. She got like half of 1% conversion because it was early in the game. Who wants to exclusively get their podcast on some crummy, you know, pre patrion, pre good tech paywall thing that you have to listen on a website? So. And she was like, oh, this isn't working. Oh, well, you have a one year deal.

[Ben Affleck]

Oops.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And then a year later she comes back to podcasting and it was like, oh, your, your feed is dead. Everyone unsubscribed. This show basically was over after your tease to go to the paywall. And those people are probably not coming back. You have to go find them all again. And then they have to resubscribe. And she was like, jordan, you're right. I basically nuked my business and I'm never making that mistake again.

[Dave Jackson]

I knew when I saw those two guys doing an episode together. I mean, and that's just one nugget. There are many on those and newmediashow.com I'll put a link in the show notes again schoolofpodcasting.com 10:22 but that did not disappoint at all. And I knew with those two guys behind the mic and Jordan just being, well, Jordan, that was one of those episodes that the minute I saw it hit my phone, I was like, oh, I know what I'm going to listen to right now. The school of podcasting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'll have links to Ray's interview, to Jordan's interview with Rob. Everything we mentioned. Again, schoolofpodcasting.com 10:22 and if you want help building a show, you know that actually people will binge that whole structuring episodes and adding ethical open loops and turning listeners into evangelists. That's exactly what we work on Inside the school of Podcasting. For more information, go out to schoolofpodcasting.com start use the coupon code listnr when you sign up for either a monthly, quarterly or yearly subscription. And don't forget, that comes with five hours a month of one on one coaching with me, along with an amazing podcast community, schoolofpodcasting.com that's gonna do it for this episode. I'm Dave Jackson. I help podcasters. It's what I do. Going on 21 years and until next week, take care. God bless. Class is dismissed. If you like the show, please share it with a friend. If you like the show, pretty, pretty please share it with a friend. Right now to get six figure download is making a living with his pot. Oh geez, I hate it when I burp in the middle of a sentence. Called the Pit, I think it is, or the Tiff or something. I'll fix that in a second. Ah, yes, Future Dave. That was a good movie. The Pit, the Ben Affleck and Matt Damon movie. It's. Yeah, it's kind of a Cop, you know, action kind of thing. But it's interesting because you don't know what's going to happen next. One of them there open loops. And as promised, here is why I say it typically takes three years to monetize your show.

[Jordan Harbinger]

So when we started our podcast three.

[Dave Jackson]

Years ago, we already had quite a bit of connections. How do you become a six figure blogger? And you know, is it really possible to do it in a year or less? So I wouldn't say like it is a typical route. I would say that like probably people are talking about it. The more typical is like you need like three years. Whatever you want to have in three years, you have to start today to get it.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And I think this is also something.

[Dave Jackson]

If you think of podcasting, if you.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Think of SEO, two to three years, I would say is a very good.

[Dave Jackson]

Time frame to achieve a lot of things. Well, that's going to take a few years before you make $1, because my.

[Jordan Harbinger]

First ad came three years into it.

[Dave Jackson]

Yeah, anybody in their right mind would.

[Jordan Harbinger]

Have gave up by then, but that's all businesses.

[Ben Affleck]

All businesses quit.

[Dave Jackson]

I have to interrupt. Yeah, what was the timeline again? Three years for the first ad. There we go. That's my favorite answer. I tell people all the time, do you really have the patience to go through this? Because from what I heard from all these amazing experts, and I can tell you from my own example, is it takes three plus years. That's the one thing where a content creator really needs to choose whether they're.

[Jordan Harbinger]

In it to win it.

[Dave Jackson]

So, you know, nine downloads a day, and it was only like, you know, three years into it where it really started to take off. And yeah, we're trying different things, but I think if I were to give you any tip at all, if there's only one from this talk, it's just consistency, right? It's not even just podcasting. It's not just content marketing.

[Jordan Harbinger]

It's your business, it's your life, right?

[Dave Jackson]

Even in a relationship, just consistency, right?

[Jordan Harbinger]

You just keep on going.

[Dave Jackson]

Our research at Tilt Publishing shows It takes about 18 months to start making money. But I truly believe that number is three to four years. And guess what? That's pretty much like any other small business. It took three years for my podcast to garner attention. It can take off some of the pressure, especially when we realize that the average product or business takes three years. And is it official? Is it okay to say you're crushing it now with your course?

[Jordan Harbinger]

Yeah, we're crushing it. We are multiple six figures.

[Dave Jackson]

Nice. We've come a long way in the last year. That's awesome.

[Jordan Harbinger]

And like you like again. And we never made money for three years. Three years.

[Dave Jackson]

Three years. There's that saying again. Thank you. You just got yourself into the school of podcasting. Actually, that was true with all three of my shows. That the average time between launch and bringing a partner to the table was about three and a half years. Yeah.